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Sauce : DesMoinesRegister.com
Apparently a teacher told his class (I think it was Western Civ) that the Genesis narrative is not a literal truth (talking snakes, 6 days of creation), and some students got mad, possibly threatening legal action. The lecture in question was broadcasted over the interwebs so we might see a youfacestertube video
Things to note is that we're not sure exactly what happened, and it was at a college so there's no such thing as tenure.
Still scary stuff.
It reminds me of the Monkey Trial, way back when I was a kid in the 1920s. Some teacher was fired for trying to teach Darwin in some school in Tennessee, and the fundamentalists tried to eat him.
It's nice to see we've evolved and improved since then. :) Darwin will be proud.
If it was in a public school I could see people flipping out that much, but at college?
It is about time people started getting more right.
wait? genesis wasnt real?
there goes my hopes of having a talking snake.
its all creation myth. long ago it was something everyone knew and then some dumb smurf decided to make the bible and in doing so made this something to be fought over
hear-hearQuote:
Originally Posted by Namelessfengir
some people, mainly americans (no offence) need to stop telling people that what they believe is the truth, and doing pathetic things like sacking people for stating the obvious. talking snake? pah!
The Bible was not "made" by a single person. There is no one author or even one person who compiled all the stories it contains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Namelessfengir
You know this how? Last time I checked the bible didn't have the authors names on the spine. And before you say "The bible says so" I could write a book and say that multiple people wrote it, doesn't make it true.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeThe Bible was not "made" by a single person. There is no one author or even one person who compiled all the stories it contains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Namelessfengir
Lol, his last name is Bitterman. That's funny to me =(
Anyway, this is sillypie. If you really, truly don't agree with him, then just go home and cry in bed and then forget about it. To get the man fired because you think he's wrong is pretty vicious.
geez... one of my professors has said similar things and no one jumped at his throat... I actually enjoy it when he challenges the bible :D I'm wondering if this college was in the bible belt ><
BAD PROFESSOR
MAKE STUDENT THINK FOR SELF
HURT BRAIN
I agree that he should not be fired. He should, however, be reprimanded. I hate few things more than a teacher expressing their opinions as fact, especially when relegion is involved. And since simply "disagreeing" with a teacher can get your grade tanked, I would certainly not let the matter drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarWeaver
Okay. Here's the deal. He had a right to say what he said. The students had a right to be offended. The students had a right to say whatever they wanted back.
But threaten to call an attorney? What kind of moron attorney would take that case? These students are idiots. This is why they don't want to hear this information, anyway. They've been brainwashed to believe one thing religiously. (I know. Took me years to unbrainwash myself.) They're afraid that if they hear new ideas that conflict with their religious brainwashings, they'll be forced to reconsider their views and possibly go to hell because of it. The short version? They're pussies.
People who think for themselves want to hear new ideas. We want to compare these ideas with the ones we already have and then reconsider our viewpoints. This way, we keep learning. And like I said in another thread yesterday, "Knowledge is more important than happiness." Well. Those weren't my exact words, but these are the words that fit better in this thread.
The fact is, that the school had no right to fire him over bullcrap like this. The article clearly states that he knows of no other reason that would fire him. The school is paid for with Iowa tax dollars and therefore cannot legally support any given religion without supporting them all. An attorney wouldn't have taken the case before he was fired, but they certainly will now. He could sue the school over this. Not that he'd want his job back, but he could still sue over the school supporting one relgion over the others.
So yeah. He should sue the school, collect his reward, and move to another state and get a job teaching at another school.
Great, looks like we're regressing even further towards Dark Age stupidity.
When the nukes start flying, I'm blaming organised religion.
While it is very wrong for him to be persecuted for saying it, I'm tired of seeing everyone take cases like this as a reason to bash Christianity. Not all christians are like that and even the most devout are open to other opinions, despite what alot of people want you to think.
I know in the Catholic Church, alot of us actually believe exactly what he said - that Genesis isn't a literal model for how the world is created. there's many other Christians who even go so far as to believe that Evolution was the means by which God created man. So please, do not think all Christians are ignorant or are all-out hating science or all that.
What Bolivar said.
Still, nobody did anything wrong until somebody's beliefs almost ruined somebody's career for their beliefs.
I can't speak for the others, but I never said all Christians were like that. Only that these Christians were like that. Obviously, there are many religious people that can think for themselves. The problem is when people are brainwashed from birth with a particular religion. I used to be a real asshole because of it. Now, I'm just a real asshole for other reasons. Brainwashed people need to be broken and taught to think for themselves. Otherwise, crap like this happens.
It was the teacher's beliefs that caused the trouble. He has the right to believe whatever he wants. However, stating that belief as fact is totally out of line. Should he have been fired? Probably not. Should he have been punished? Yes. He abused his authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
If the book of Genesis was a literal, the first two chapters would not contradict each other.
In the first chapter, you have the creation of the world in seven days.
Day 5: Birds and fish
Day 6: All other animals and humans
Then you get into the story of Adam and Eve, which states that Adam was created first, then the animals, and finally Eve.
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
If he was fired solely for this, than that's ridiculous and he should certainly sue the school. I can see taking offense to it if it goes against your beliefs, but come on now. My 12th grade English teacher made it well known in class that she thought the whole Bible was a load of crock, me or any other people who believe in it didn't flip out. Either way these kids need to learn to accept others and their opinions, seeing as how being accepting is kind of a big part of being a Christian.
he hardly abused his authority, he only pointed out that snakes infact cannot talkQuote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeIt was the teacher's beliefs that caused the trouble. He has the right to believe whatever he wants. However, stating that belief as fact is totally out of line. Should he have been fired? Probably not. Should he have been punished? Yes. He abused his authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
well its retarded we all hav our belifs if some1 is gonna fite over what some1 else thanks then fires them then they need councilin
lol, religion
The real question here is how did those students make it into college?
Edit:But it is fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblade
In times of religious confusion, we can count on nik0tine to enter the breach once more.
and generally be able to clear the confusion with words of wisdomQuote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
i think.
That was by no means "all" he pointed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Don't Need A Namehe hardly abused his authority, he only pointed out that snakes infact cannot talkQuote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeIt was the teacher's beliefs that caused the trouble. He has the right to believe whatever he wants. However, stating that belief as fact is totally out of line. Should he have been fired? Probably not. Should he have been punished? Yes. He abused his authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
He has no right to tell anyone how they "have" to view their relegion. His opinion is that the story is full of depth, meaning, and metaphorical imagery. I don't even disagree with that. He overstepped his authority in using his position as a teacher to present that view as the only view. His class was western civilization, not interpretation of relegious dogma.Quote:
I told them it was an extremely meaningful story, but you had to see it in a poetic, metaphoric or symbolic sense, that if you took it literally, that you were going to miss a whole lot of meaning there.
still, the kids have no right to get the teacher sacked for having a different view to him. just because he has a more logical view on the bible stories doesnt mean they can go about getting a man out of a jobQuote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeThat was by no means "all" he pointed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Don't Need A Namehe hardly abused his authority, he only pointed out that snakes infact cannot talkQuote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeIt was the teacher's beliefs that caused the trouble. He has the right to believe whatever he wants. However, stating that belief as fact is totally out of line. Should he have been fired? Probably not. Should he have been punished? Yes. He abused his authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
He has no right to tell anyone how they "have" to view their relegion. His opinion is that the story is full of depth, meaning, and metaphorical imagery. I don't even disagree with that. He overstepped his authority in using his position as a teacher to present that view as the only view. His class was western civilization, not interpretation of relegious dogma.Quote:
I told them it was an extremely meaningful story, but you had to see it in a poetic, metaphoric or symbolic sense, that if you took it literally, that you were going to miss a whole lot of meaning there.
Of course not. He has every right to his view. He still does not have the right to force that view on his class, and that is where he stepped out of line.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Don't Need A Namestill, the kids have no right to get the teacher sacked for having a different view to him. just because he has a more logical view on the bible stories doesnt mean they can go about getting a man out of a jobQuote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeThat was by no means "all" he pointed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Don't Need A Namehe hardly abused his authority, he only pointed out that snakes infact cannot talkQuote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeIt was the teacher's beliefs that caused the trouble. He has the right to believe whatever he wants. However, stating that belief as fact is totally out of line. Should he have been fired? Probably not. Should he have been punished? Yes. He abused his authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
He has no right to tell anyone how they "have" to view their relegion. His opinion is that the story is full of depth, meaning, and metaphorical imagery. I don't even disagree with that. He overstepped his authority in using his position as a teacher to present that view as the only view. His class was western civilization, not interpretation of relegious dogma.Quote:
I told them it was an extremely meaningful story, but you had to see it in a poetic, metaphoric or symbolic sense, that if you took it literally, that you were going to miss a whole lot of meaning there.
he never forced this view. it doesnt state anywhere where he said I AM CORRECT! BELIEVE ME OR I WILL BEAT YOU
He said it had no meaning unless viewed a particular way. Sorry, but that is presenting his view as the only valid one.
I dont get it, why would a book lie to me?
Maybe snakes didnt use to talk like humans, maybe humans use to talk like snakes and evolved out of it :eek:
Um...since when? Last I remembered, all origins of existence were smurfing theories. Just because you're arrogant doesn't make you automatically right. When I say I believe in intelligent design, it doesn't make it automatically right. Aren't all existential beliefs based off of theories? Since when has there been solid, verifiable proof in any subject of the sort?Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
I don't think nik0tine subscribes to theistic creationism stories, so I think when he says 'fact' he means '[the story] is factually [a theory]'. But I'm not sure he means that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetically PatheticUm...since when? Last I remembered, all origins of existence were smurfing theories. Just because you're arrogant doesn't make you automatically right. When I say I believe in intelligent design, it doesn't make it automatically right. Aren't all existential beliefs based off of theories? Since when has there been solid, verifiable proof in any subject of the sort?Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
In any case, your response is correct -- we have no means to knowing anything, so it all boils down to belief. However some people are able to circumvent this fence-sitting conclusion by means of things like the flying teacup example of how we shouldn't just suspend belief just because there's no evidence. The conclusion however still doesn't change -- it's still belief and not 'knowledge'.
He did nothing in the wrong. He simply said that if you took Genesis literally than you will miss the greater picture and other things. There are many ways to look at texts, especially religious text. To say there is only one way to look at them (literal way for example) is foolish in the sense that you limit any possible understanding that can be derived from the text. Also, not all Christians take Genesis to be literal anyways, there are many who think it is metaphorical. In fact, one of my professors told my class once that if you actually look at the style of writing in Genesis (such as grammar and syntax) there is evidence to show that there were four different authors of Genesis. :/
He may have crossed the line by saying it was a "fairy tale" but the thing is, when he said it, it was after class to a single student. In such a personal scenario it is most likely he was only saying his personal view.
Anyways, it makes sense that the Bible would be used in a Western Civilization class seeing as how much it has impacted Western Civilization.
Also no theory of creation whether it be Creationism or Evolution are indeed facts, like said earlier they are merely theories. He did not even say Creationism was wrong, simply that the story of creation told in Genesis should not be taken so literally. After all, man was created twice in Genesis. First in chapter one (God creates man and woman in his image) then in chapter two with the story of Adam and Eve.