The Wonderful World of Ivalice

So, as we all know, Ivalice has become it's own little world within the Final Fantasy series. Several games take place in the same world, usually in different regions. FFT, FFTA (more on this later), FFTA2, FFXII, FFXII:RW, and Vagrant Story all take place in Ivalice.

According to the Final Fantasy Wiki, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance starts off in the "future" of Ivalice. In FFTA, Mewt creates a dream world based on the Final Fantasy games which are, apparently, based on 'real life' (within the game) history. Nothing that happens in that version of Ivalice is canon, as far as the outside world goes. However, when Luso (FFTA2) enters Ivalice, it seems to send him back in time. The Montblanc in FFTA2 is not the same Montblanc from FFTA, but he is the same Montblanc from FFXII, for example.

Anyway, I find it all very fascinating, especially when the games reference the little minor elements of various games. For example, the bestiary entry for Flans in FFXII mentions an guild called the Iron Stomach, and their various recipes based on monsters. In FFTA2, there are several missions where you have to gather ingredients for the Iron Stomach. Little things like these are what make Ivalice such an engrossing place.

So yes. Discuss Ivalice. :P

Its funny though not one of them followed 1-10's random battle and almost all had jobs hunts or missions.

I'm still hoping against the odds that Rapture, SquareEnix's as-of-yet untitled MMORPG, takes place in Ivalice. Each game expands on Ivalice, and the world has become more developed than any other featured in a Final Fantasy title (FFXII did most of the work for this).

Despite Matsuno, the original mastermind behind Ivalice, leaving Square Enix, I'm hoping that we will get the story filling the gap between FFXII and FFT--the biggest gap in the world's history so far. At some point, some cataclysmic event wipes the world of its technological advances and somehow leaves humes as the only remaining race (or at least the only race in the nation of Ivalice in FFT).

I think Ivalice takes roles of more adverage party members. Sure you got royalty but thats just regular. The world though is so big and instead of having the one shot heros we get to see typical characters just saving a nation or just doing choirs. Its funny though my sister brong over Vagrant Story and said that I would like it. Not at all did I know it had anything to do with FF except for it being from square enix.

My friend and I were discussing this the other night cause he was telling me about the Mist in TA2 and how it has become a bit of larger part of Ivalice. While we discussed it, it started to become much clearer that the "Dark" from Vagrant Story may in fact be Mist. Their properties are quite similar even down to the part about the dead coming back to life.

Besides that, I must say its the most developed world that SE has given us and I do love how each game references each other as well as other FF games. I've always appreciated the Carrot Mark Hunt existing in FFT, FFTA, FFXII and I believe FFTA2. Doesn't FFTA2 take place in the continent above the country of Ivalice from the original FFT?

I don't know where it is, exactly, in relation to the other regions, but it's called "Jylland."

They gotta make a game about Germonik.

Ivalice confuses me!

In WotL, balthier is in it right? He looks the same as the XII balthier, but he isn't the same!


In TA, I can see similarities between it and XII (Espers, destroying crystals)

Meh, confused much o.0

^It is the same Balthier. He was transported through time by the Cache de Glabados or whatever.

Ivalice is such a cool name. Its a sick world. The bestiary in FFXII just rocks.

Jylland is a place in Denmark!

I always thought it occured like this (I'm not going to mention VS cuz I never played it. : P)

Tactics Advance takes place first, in which a fantasy-Ivalice is created in addition to the "real" St. Ivalice. XII then takes place in the fantasy-Ivalice, supported by the fact that Montblanc is now head of a famous clan. TA2 then takes place shortly after that in the fantasy Ivalice to which the Grimoire transports Luso, as evidenced by the now-sky-pirate Vaan and Penelo (also, idk if it takes place before or after RW, never played that either) and Al-Cid. Years pass in fantasy Ivalice, and the events of Tactics occur (it mentions that moogles are extinct.) but not too far after TA2, as Balthier and Luso make an appearance... this is confuzzling.

This is my interpretation of it, and it's probably as far from the truth as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcanedude34

I always thought it occured like this (I'm not going to mention VS cuz I never played it. : P)

Tactics Advance takes place first, in which a fantasy-Ivalice is created in addition to the "real" St. Ivalice. XII then takes place in the fantasy-Ivalice, supported by the fact that Montblanc is now head of a famous clan. TA2 then takes place shortly after that in the fantasy Ivalice to which the Grimoire transports Luso, as evidenced by the now-sky-pirate Vaan and Penelo (also, idk if it takes place before or after RW, never played that either) and Al-Cid. Years pass in fantasy Ivalice, and the events of Tactics occur (it mentions that moogles are extinct.) but not too far after TA2, as Balthier and Luso make an appearance... this is confuzzling.

This is my interpretation of it, and it's probably as far from the truth as possible.

---

Its not too far off to be honest. FFTA is not actually part of the timeline, its considered its own separate story. The Ivalice created by Mewt and the Grimoire is thought to be based on Mewt's knowledge of the Ivalice games.

It goes like this:
FFXII
FFXII: RW
FFTA2:GotR
FFT or FFT:WotL (whichever is your preference)
Vagrant Story

This is the timeline from my understanding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcanedude34

I always thought it occured like this (I'm not going to mention VS cuz I never played it. : P)

Tactics Advance takes place first, in which a fantasy-Ivalice is created in addition to the "real" St. Ivalice. XII then takes place in the fantasy-Ivalice, supported by the fact that Montblanc is now head of a famous clan. TA2 then takes place shortly after that in the fantasy Ivalice to which the Grimoire transports Luso, as evidenced by the now-sky-pirate Vaan and Penelo (also, idk if it takes place before or after RW, never played that either) and Al-Cid. Years pass in fantasy Ivalice, and the events of Tactics occur (it mentions that moogles are extinct.) but not too far after TA2, as Balthier and Luso make an appearance... this is confuzzling.

This is my interpretation of it, and it's probably as far from the truth as possible.

---

Its not too far off to be honest. FFTA is not actually part of the timeline, its considered its own separate story. The Ivalice created by Mewt and the Grimoire is thought to be based on Mewt's knowledge of the Ivalice games.

It goes like this:
FFXII
FFXII: RW
FFTA2:GotR
FFT or FFT:WotL (whichever is your preference)
Vagrant Story

This is the timeline from my understanding.

---

To be clear, is this official Square-approved canon? Or just some fan-speculation?

Well I know there was a timeline that showed the events in FFT in relation to the events in FFXII, so that's correct. XIIRW comes after XII and TA2 comes after XIIRW, just because they actually make references to the events in these games in that order.

Not sure about Vagrant Story, but I believe it. :P

Vagrant Story is still up in the air to be honest. I don't believe it was counted in the timeline given in the FFXII Ultimania but if you play through the game, there were several references to FFT that fans felt placed the game after FFT. Throw in the fact that Valendia debuted in VS (for those who don't know, its the region that Archades is located in XII) and its got a strong case for itself. Most fans feel the game probably takes place a few centuries after the death of Alazlam J. Durai, (the narrator of FFT) since VS generally refers to him in the past tense.

As far as I know, VS is still up in the air as far as continuity, and TA has pretty much been confirmed to be non-canon.

I like how society's changed so much by the time Vagrant Story's events unfold. Back in FFXII, magick was a part of everyday life, crucial to technology and science. Mist permeates everywhere, and palings protect cities from attack. While large amounts of Mist are dangerous, there's generally no harm in people studying and embracing magical powers.
But in Vagrant Story, magical arts are forbidden by law and religion, and Mist has become known as 'The Dark', an omnipresent and corrupting force that's kept out of human cities by Palings. Where colossal airships once sailed the skies on Skystone, it's now a significant feat when someone uncovers the spells to temporarily levitate a small piece of Cloudstone.

Ivalice's complete history would be a fascinating, though I fear sad, tale. Learning, for instance, why magic all but disappeared, along with all the non-human races. If the ancient, captive wyrms and war machines of FFXII are anything to go by, it's a world that's repeatedly pushed itself to the brink of annihilation by constructing impossibly powerful weapons of war, whether living or mechanical.

I completely agree, The Fall of the Lucavi/Scions, The Dynast-King, The Great Collapse, St. Ajora, Mullenkamp, and many more. There are so many events I want to learn more about Ivalice. Even more information on just the larger part of the world would be nice. You really get a greater sense of history from Ivalice than other FF worlds.

Reading the background info on Ivalice through the Bestiary in XII or the Dispatch mission in FFT you get a glimpse of something truly grand. What I wouldn't give for a Vagrant Story 2 :cry:

Did the other races in Ivalice go extinct? B/c FFT's world takes place outside of FFXII's, and the Archadian empire (Valendia) was pretty racist/specist to begin with.

Although I do know moogles "used to live" in the one swamp, maybe they were just in other places.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Did the other races in Ivalice go extinct? B/c FFT's world takes place outside of FFXII's, and the Archadian empire (Valendia) was pretty racist/specist to begin with.

Although I do know moogles "used to live" in the one swamp, maybe they were just in other places.

---

Its a possibility, most of the material concerning Ivalice only takes place in XII's era. Personally, I don't see it outside the realm of possibilities for the races to still exist in FFT and VS time periods just in different countries.

In all honesty the Ivalice-based games of the franchise are some of the weakest games in the bunch. Final Fantasy 12 in particular is remarkably terrible and dull in so many aspects.

That may be your opinion, but I enjoyed all the Ivalice games, with the exception of the ones I haven't played, obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain Maxx Power

In all honesty the Ivalice-based games of the franchise are some of the weakest games in the bunch. Final Fantasy 12 in particular is remarkably terrible and dull in so many aspects.

---

Only for story whores. (And even then, only for story whores who don't want to follow a story about a situation instead of a story about magical young adults.)

Agreed; I consider FFXII's story in the simple-but-well-told category. A reasonably straightforward plot, but with depth and back-story to make it rich and engaging. A nice change from the trend of plots that are so convoluted they almost require re-playing the game just to have a clear idea of what's happening and why.

I've encountered the odd theory here and there that FFIV took place in Ivalice; apparently FFT has like a million very direct references to it but I've never played it enough to find out.

Based on said odd theory here and there, I once played an FFIV fangame in RPG Maker where they just outright referred to the world as Ivalice.

I used to think VI took place in Ivalice, probably just because of the reuse of the name Espers in the Ivalice games.

It's weird to think that "Esper", another wacky creative slur by Ted Woolsey, could be adopted by an entire sub-series of the FF franchise.

This has reminded me that FFIV did ultimately decide on "Eidolon" for its summoned monsters though, so I guess that last post is unlikely to be true.

this is a timeline from the Ultimania book:

Quote:

---

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...alice-time.jpg

The timeline of Ivalice in Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy XII, provided by Square Enix's official guide book, Final Fantasy XII Ultimania Omega. Translation is as follows:

Final Fantasy XII History (brown)

* 1st Upper Box: Unknown Era - The Occuria reside in Giruvegan.
* 2nd Upper Box: Old Valendia 1 - Establishment of the Galtean Federation.
* 3rd Upper Box: Old Valendia 394 - The Galtean Federation breaks apart.
* 4th Upper Box: Old Valendia 706 - Final Fantasy XII takes place.
* 5th Upper Box: Several decades after Old Valendia 706 - Female St Ajora establishes a new religion.

Grey box: Are they the same person?

Final Fantasy Tactics History (blue)

* 1st Lower Box: Unknown Era - 12 Knights kills a demon, and rescues Ivalice.
* 2nd Lower Box: 1200 years before the Middle Ages - St Ajora establishes the Glabados religion.
* 3rd Lower Box: Unknown Era - A catastrophe befalls the civilization at this age.
* 4th Lower Box: Middle Ages - Final Fantasy Tactics takes place.

---

So FFT is like 1000+ years after FF12.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roto13

Only for story whores. (And even then, only for story whores who don't want to follow a story about a situation instead of a story about magical young adults.)

---

Joy, turns out I'm a whore. Well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me, Princess. Heaven forfend that I might actually want to play a JRPG for the story. I mean it's not as if the vast majority of them are so convoluted in their gameplay elements and grind-up-the-ass that the story is pretty much the major part of the game. Calling me a story whore is like calling someone who asks for tea leaves mixed in their tea a flavour whore. Granted you could tell them to not complain about only having hot water to drink, but they've still got a valid reason to be irked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big D

Agreed; I consider FFXII's story in the simple-but-well-told category. A reasonably straightforward plot, but with depth and back-story to make it rich and engaging. A nice change from the trend of plots that are so convoluted they almost require re-playing the game just to have a clear idea of what's happening and why.

---

If by straight forward you mean tired, dull and uneventful then I concur. It's not so much the simplicity of the plot I hate (though that is one of the things I don't like), it's the sheer poorness of the way it is presented and the main characters. I've yet to have anyone on this planet legitimise the presence of Penelo in the game apart from to fill out the last party slot. Everything you do and everyone you talk to just seems so inconsequential to the proceedings (which incidentally are, as I say, tired, dull and uneventful) I can almost feel my brain glazing over everytime someone opens their mouth to utter out stilted exposition dialogue. And that's really what it comes down to; the game pretty much just has every NPC advance the plot. That's about it. There's zero character development, zero motivation, no growth in terms of the story, no interesting internal conflicts, no philosophical musings (granted it's usually pseudo-intellectual but at least it's interesting), absolutely nothing which is said that isn't designed to punt you from point A to point B.

In a word, FF12's story is horrible. It's easily the most boring game I've played in my life by a long margin. This is without me even mentioning the other reasons why I hate the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain Maxx Power

If by straight forward you mean tired, dull and uneventful then I concur. It's not so much the simplicity of the plot I hate (though that is one of the things I don't like), it's the sheer poorness of the way it is presented and the main characters. I've yet to have anyone on this planet legitimise the presence of Penelo in the game apart from to fill out the last party slot. Everything you do and everyone you talk to just seems so inconsequential to the proceedings (which incidentally are, as I say, tired, dull and uneventful) I can almost feel my brain glazing over everytime someone opens their mouth to utter out stilted exposition dialogue. And that's really what it comes down to; the game pretty much just has every NPC advance the plot. That's about it. There's zero character development, zero motivation, no growth in terms of the story, no interesting internal conflicts, no philosophical musings (granted it's usually pseudo-intellectual but at least it's interesting), absolutely nothing which is said that isn't designed to punt you from point A to point B.

---

http://forums.eyesonff.com/2110033-post64.html Read have fun.

I don't care if you hate the game and feel its awful we all have our own opinions and I'm not really going to bother convincing you one way or the other. Though lashing out at the the whole Ivalice franchise cause you didn't like XII seems pretty silly to me. :p

Sorry you missed the bitter emo with a heart of gold, the "energetic" 15-year-old girl, the mysterious "old" (read: 25 years old) guy, and their quest to save the world from a super secret hidden threat, but FF XII actually tried to do things differently without being completely cliched and ridiculous. Lots of things happened in XII, but for once the game put love stories and angst in the background in favour of telling the story of two warring countries and the little guy caught in the middle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't care if you hate the game and feel its awful we all have our own opinions and I'm not really going to bother convincing you one way or the other. Though lashing out at the the whole Ivalice franchise cause you didn't like XII seems pretty silly to me. :p

---

I've not played the Tactics series that much, so my experience with Ivalice is pretty much FF12. It may be the case that the other games may be better. But as such insofar as I'm concerned, my personal experience with Ivalice has been negative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roto13

Sorry you missed the bitter emo with a heart of gold, the "energetic" 15-year-old girl, the mysterious "old" (read: 25 years old) guy, and their quest to save the world from a super secret hidden threat, but FF XII actually tried to do things differently without being completely cliched and ridiculous. Lots of things happened in XII, but for once the game put love stories and angst in the background in favour of telling the story of two warring countries and the little guy caught in the middle.

---

*sigh* I don't know at what point you started to assume that I was wanting a game filled with clichés. If you'd have bothered to read what I had posted you'd have seen that my primary complaint was that there was no character development and the story was way too straight forward.

Let me tell you a bit about storytelling; generally speaking drama is created within a narrative via two major means; changes in the present status quo of the story, and changes in the protagonists/antagonists. In the case of the first the game, while including several major plot points where events do happen, none of them are unexpected or particularly interesting. It's amazing that in the course of the game your party gets captured twice. To me that just smacks of a lack of any ideas. This is also coupled with the fact the story never throws you a curve ball. One of the things I tend to enjoy when watching any story are the points when a major plotline is revealed, or an intriguing new aspect is added to the mix that completely changes the proceedings. These are the real memorable moments of a story; examples such as FF7 when you find out about Cloud's past, in Fallout 2 when you find out about the experiments being done on the vaults and in Knights of the Old Republic when you find out about your character's past. It's these moments that many players tend to remember, the point where a new piece of the puzzle that is the narrative fell into place and things became interesting. This never happens at all in FF12. The only point where the game becomes even mildly interesting is when the Occuria show up. But even then the game does nothing with them. I was expecting them to be at least some kind of credible influence in the actual plotline, but they basically show up like some kind of obscure Deus Ex Machina, say some cryptic lines and are never heard from again. They may as well have mentioned it in the credits; "By the way, there's these things that made all this happen, but you don't get to do jack about them". In short the game presents no real intrigue during the course of the gameplay, and even the basic storyline which is presented isn't even that well done. I mean you don't even see the final boss with the exception of the starting cinematic and near the end. He's not that much of a credible threat. Neither is the Empire. There's no sense that what you're doing is urgent or even necessary. Personally I felt by the end that the world wasn't even improved; it just had a different administration.

Now let's get onto the characters. I don't know how necessary it is to argue about the lack of character development, but I'll do so. Basically there is none, or practically none. Each of the characters gets to the end of the game in pretty much the same state as the start. They don't overcome any personal goals, demons, internal conflicts, they don't improve in some way, they don't show any kind of emotional progression throughout the entirety of the game. There are some character attributes which, if they had been fully realised, would have moved the characters away from the cardboard cut-outs they are. But these are just glazed over so quickly if you blink you'd miss them. Vaan has a backstory about his brother being killed, but it's mentioned a handful of times and then forgotten. Basch's story about killing the king is quickly swept under the rug with an "evil brother" device (by the way if you want to bitch and moan about clichés, stick that particular one in your pipe and smoke it) basically turning him into a gruff-voiced bodyguard. Ashe is basically a bitch from start to finish, and to be honest is as unsuitable and unworthy of ruling over Ivalice as a sack of potatoes. Fran and Penelo are essential worthless in terms of their motivations since they're essentially just the taggers-on to Balthier and Vaan respectively. At the very least Fran has the most developed narrative vis a vis her expulsion from her homeland. Penelo on the other hand is utterly pointless as a character. She has no motivation beyond being a puppy-dog to Vaan, no background of note and has I think the better part of ten lines in the entire game. Balthier is easily the most intriguing character but despite this he's actually the one character that's developed the least. You get all these really nifty hints of his past life and his ties to the Empire, but it's never really explored fully. It's the metaphorical equivalent of hanging a piece of meat three feet away from a cage lion with two foot long legs. There's such a lack of anything close to character interaction as well that makes the game so damn dull. In every drama there's at least some kind of conflict internally with the protagonists, some way in which they directly interact with each other and through this their own stories and personalities develop. There is none of that in FF12. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the party got to the end of the game without knowing a damn thing about each other. They may not even know each other's names. Then there's the antagonists, who by and large are more interesting to watch than your own party. Yet they never seem like a credible threat, something that you should be fighting against. From what I can tell the Empire is actually the superior of the two forces, and in all honesty if it were up to me I'd rather they were in charge than Whats-her-face. We have an end boss that doesn't even show his face for the majority of the game, yet we're supposed to feel some sense of achievement in laying the smackdown on him? It's almost as bad as Necro in FF9 who just springs out of nowhere. I can't even remember the name of the bad guy you fight at the end off the top of my head.

If all of that is too much for you to read let me summarise; FF12 fails to create any kind of meaningful development in both it's characters and it's plot. It's as stock as you can get and not even the interesting kind of stock. The narrative is generally straightforward with no points of interest, certainly not something you discuss with others afterwards. The characters are walking mannequins designed to say the occasional lines of exposition, beyond that not offering anything in the way of intrigue. This isn't a case of wanting clichés, this is a case of wanting something, anything to happen that's worth pumping forty+ hours into this game. In short there isn't. You could write the script for this game on the back of a napkin over your lunch-break if you choose to do so. By the end of FF12 I felt an overwhelming sense of disappointment, cheated by a storyline that never delivers and is so predictable in it's outcomes and direction I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I wasted my time playing it to the end.

I stopped at "Let me tell you a bit about storytelling" because you apparently don't understand that a story doesn't have to be about the characters, and I'm not particularly interested in a wall o' text from that crazy-ass point of view.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roto13

I stopped at "Let me tell you a bit about storytelling" because you apparently don't understand that a story doesn't have to be about the characters, and I'm not particularly interested in a wall o' text from that crazy-ass point of view.

---

Way to completely disregard my arguments on completely baseless reasoning. Sometimes I wonder why you're worth bothering with, you do this with pretty much every discussion on here; Fail to reply to legitimate criticisms with legitimate answers for completely pointless reasons. It's like trying to argue with a child plugging their ears and going "lalala, I'm not listening, lalala".

Quote:

---

you do this with pretty much every discussion on here;

---

Prove it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain Maxx Power

I've not played the Tactics series that much, so my experience with Ivalice is pretty much FF12. It may be the case that the other games may be better. But as such insofar as I'm concerned, my personal experience with Ivalice has been negative.

---

Then all I ask is how you can slam a franchise when you've only played 1 out of the 6 Ivalice titles :confused:


I didn't really feel like debating this but since you went to the trouble of placing your thoughts on XII, I might as well say something to your points. I will use spoiler tags since the game is still relatively new. ;)

Quote:

---

In the case of the first the game, while including several major plot points where events do happen, none of them are unexpected or particularly interesting. It's amazing that in the course of the game your party gets captured twice. To me that just smacks of a lack of any ideas. This is also coupled with the fact the story never throws you a curve ball. One of the things I tend to enjoy when watching any story are the points when a major plotline is revealed, or an intriguing new aspect is added to the mix that completely changes the proceedings.

These are the real memorable moments of a story; examples such as FF7 when you find out about Cloud's past, in Fallout 2 when you find out about the experiments being done on the vaults and in Knights of the Old Republic when you find out about your character's past. It's these moments that many players tend to remember, the point where a new piece of the puzzle that is the narrative fell into place and things became interesting. This never happens at all in FF12.

The only point where the game becomes even mildly interesting is when the Occuria show up. But even then the game does nothing with them. I was expecting them to be at least some kind of credible influence in the actual plotline, but they basically show up like some kind of obscure Deus Ex Machina, say some cryptic lines and are never heard from again. They may as well have mentioned it in the credits; "By the way, there's these things that made all this happen, but you don't get to do jack about them". In short the game presents no real intrigue during the course of the gameplay, and even the basic storyline which is presented isn't even that well done. I mean you don't even see the final boss with the exception of the starting cinematic and near the end. He's not that much of a credible threat. Neither is the Empire. There's no sense that what you're doing is urgent or even necessary. Personally I felt by the end that the world wasn't even improved; it just had a different administration.

---

Well I consider the part where Lady Ashe(SPOILER)chooses to use the Nethicite to destroy the Archadian Empire. Seriously, how often does an RPG party gain control of the power the enemy is trying to obtain and decides to actually use it against them? It completely changes the story cause now your party seeks the Nethicite for another reason rather than the traditional "we can't allow this evil to posses it" plot that has saturated the market.

Learning the truth of the Dynast-King is another, in the beginning you are led to believe he was just this great ruler who appeared in the annuls of history and saved the Galtean region from massive political upheaval. Instead (SPOILER)you slowly learn that he was just a man who made a deal with the "devil" so he can rule as a puppet. To be honest, the idea of the Occurians is actually well done in the game. It lacks Xenogears finesse on the matter but its still has a major impact by changing the scope (SPOILER)of Vayne and Dr. Cid's motives. It transforms the "Evil Empire" into kingdom fighting for the good of humanity. How does this lack "impact on the story"?

What most people fail to realize is that (SPOILER)the major battle for "humanity's freedom from the Occurians" is settled at the Pharos. The final battle of the game is more about personal revenge and saving the homeland of half the playable cast than some quest to foil the maniacal plans of some Dark Warlord. I find this also unique and well done for the game as it changed up everything. The real enemy is stopped and then the party goes to stop a massive war between two major empires. The story itself is not so much about the fall of great empires as it is about the poor small countries caught in the middle of such struggles. Dalmasca is nothing more than a pawn to greater political power plays. They just had a few people who did something about it. ;)

Quote:

---

Now let's get onto the characters. I don't know how necessary it is to argue about the lack of character development, but I'll do so. Basically there is none, or practically none. Each of the characters gets to the end of the game in pretty much the same state as the start. They don't overcome any personal goals, demons, internal conflicts, they don't improve in some way, they don't show any kind of emotional progression throughout the entirety of the game.

There are some character attributes which, if they had been fully realised, would have moved the characters away from the cardboard cut-outs they are. But these are just glazed over so quickly if you blink you'd miss them. Vaan has a backstory about his brother being killed, but it's mentioned a handful of times and then forgotten. Basch's story about killing the king is quickly swept under the rug with an "evil brother" device (by the way if you want to bitch and moan about clichés, stick that particular one in your pipe and smoke it) basically turning him into a gruff-voiced bodyguard. Ashe is basically a bitch from start to finish, and to be honest is as unsuitable and unworthy of ruling over Ivalice as a sack of potatoes. Fran and Penelo are essential worthless in terms of their motivations since they're essentially just the taggers-on to Balthier and Vaan respectively.

At the very least Fran has the most developed narrative vis a vis her expulsion from her homeland. Penelo on the other hand is utterly pointless as a character. She has no motivation beyond being a puppy-dog to Vaan, no background of note and has I think the better part of ten lines in the entire game. Balthier is easily the most intriguing character but despite this he's actually the one character that's developed the least. You get all these really nifty hints of his past life and his ties to the Empire, but it's never really explored fully. It's the metaphorical equivalent of hanging a piece of meat three feet away from a cage lion with two foot long legs.

There's such a lack of anything close to character interaction as well that makes the game so damn dull. In every drama there's at least some kind of conflict internally with the protagonists, some way in which they directly interact with each other and through this their own stories and personalities develop. There is none of that in FF12. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the party got to the end of the game without knowing a damn thing about each other. They may not even know each other's names. Then there's the antagonists, who by and large are more interesting to watch than your own party. Yet they never seem like a credible threat, something that you should be fighting against. From what I can tell the Empire is actually the superior of the two forces, and in all honesty if it were up to me I'd rather they were in charge than Whats-her-face. We have an end boss that doesn't even show his face for the majority of the game, yet we're supposed to feel some sense of achievement in laying the smackdown on him? It's almost as bad as Necro in FF9 who just springs out of nowhere. I can't even remember the name of the bad guy you fight at the end off the top of my head.

---

You did not even bother reading the post I linked you to, did you? ttp://forums.eyesonff.com/2110033-post64.html I also have the link to the full thread http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fan...ame-awful.html Read it and debate if you wish cause I feel I made it pretty clear in that post that the party has quite a bit of depth and character development. I just feel most people missed it cause it wasn't the same lame soap opera shenanigans that FF fans (hell JRPG fans) are accustomed to which somehow passes for "deep" and "meaningful".

I hope this counter post is more to your liking "Maxi" :D

I missed all those awesome games...I only really got into the story of Ivalice when I played FF12, and I think if you haven't played Tactics, at least, you can't really appreciate the workings of FF12. I think this is why many people didn't enjoy FF12 because it is really part of its own little world and story and timeline and not set in the traditional 'numbered FF' sense. I really must get my hands on Tactics and Vagrant Story...unfortunately old games are hard to come by where I'm at. :mog:

I played Vagrant Story and it is awesome.
I played XII and I felt let down.
However, I will admit that the world & history of XII was very interesting. Possibly more interesting than the main story. I would try kill creatures so I could look in the bestiary and find out more about them.

XII's story is not terrible, but it isn't great either. I agree with Captain that it feels like there are elements to work with, but they are not utilized. Look at the character Al-Cid (or whatever his name is). This is an interesting character. But his screen-time is very limited.

There's Rozarrio, which you never go to. Irritating. There's Vaan's brother, Penelo's brothers, their dead parents, all of which get a brief mention but aren't properly fleshed out. I mean the two of them were orphaned - they should have some emotional damage or something to make them interesting. And they should be damn angry with the Empire!

And that is the crux of another problem. There seems to be a lack of emotion throughout the game. Ashe is one of the most detached & unemotional characters ever. Basch is mechanical. Fran is cool as well, but it's done in a way that is endearing and makes her likeable. Penelo & Vaan: you're an orphan because of the empire. Hate them loudly please.

There is only Balthier as a main character. Along with Reddas, they saved the game for me. But neither character is properly fleshed out.

I don't think XII's story is bad. It's decent. But what does irritate me is that there was a lot of unrealized potential.

^ XII's story sucks!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

XII's story is not terrible, but it isn't great either. I agree with Captain that it feels like there are elements to work with, but they are not utilized. Look at the character Al-Cid (or whatever his name is). This is an interesting character. But his screen-time is very limited.
There's Rozarrio, which you never go to. Irritating.

---

Al-Cid is limited in what he can do cause thew political situation in Rozzario is in such turmoil all he can do is offer bits of information for the party. If he openly helped it would have caused a worse case scenario that he and Larsa were trying hard to avoid. I do agree I wish he could have been fleshed out more though. As for Rozzario, their role is more of the "doomsday scenario" In order to keep the plot the same, going to Rozzario would have been going off to meet a Senate of assholes, who are taking advantage of the turmoil in Dalmasca as an excuse to walk in and start a war with their rivals Archades (not unlike what has been going on recently in world politics according to some). We pretty much meet the only reasonable member of the empire I'm afraid.

Course, I'm used to this kind of stuff cause Suikoden is well known for only showing glimpses of powerful empires that are actually important to the plot. :D

Quote:

---

There's Vaan's brother, Penelo's brothers, their dead parents, all of which get a brief mention but aren't properly fleshed out. I mean the two of them were orphaned - they should have some emotional damage or something to make them interesting. And they should be damn angry with the Empire!

---

Um... Only Reks (Vaan's brother) was killed by the Archadian Empire. Everyone else in his and Penelo's family were taken by the plague. I could be wrong about Penelo cause it has been awhile. :eep:

Quote:

---

And that is the crux of another problem. There seems to be a lack of emotion throughout the game. Ashe is one of the most detached & unemotional characters ever. Basch is mechanical. Fran is cool as well, but it's done in a way that is endearing and makes her likeable. Penelo & Vaan: you're an orphan because of the empire. Hate them loudly please.

There is only Balthier as a main character. Along with Reddas, they saved the game for me. But neither character is properly fleshed out.

---

Depends on your take of things. I feel the cast is easily one of the most realistic in the series, finally dropping the "over the top melodrama" that has plagued the series. Lady Ashe, to me at least, is the most human and most touching character in the series. She has real drama going for her and she played her role beautifully. Basch is also strong cause despite having nothing but bad fortune, he stays true to his ideals and convictions. Its the sign of a true veteran. I guess I prefer my parties not having to whine about their problems at the drop of a hat. It was incredibly refreshing.

I don't really feel I could go back to simple parties where everyone makes a bigger deal about their past than they should and refuse to accept their mistakes or destiny until they receive some grand epiphany to do so. Its been used so much by the JRPG genre its becoming a cliche itself. :rolleyes2

Quote:

---

I don't think XII's story is bad. It's decent. But what does irritate me is that there was a lot of unrealized potential.

---

I do agree the game has far greater potential but despite losing the "mastermind of Ivalice" partway through production, I feel the team did a good job. I would still argue that XII took the series in a proper direction and for me at least; make it quite difficult to go back to the old ways and Nojima's sorry excuse for plots and character development. I have always held the Ivalice stories in higher regard to the main FF series cause they were always just better written and held greater meaning than the main line series ever did.

This is of course a matter of opinion. I felt that XIIs story lacked something. But I have not analysed it in great detail, which I think you (being WK) has. It also took me several months to finish it, which probably did not help.

I have knocked this point in continuously, but I'll repeat it again. When I travelled through the Sandsea (which seems like a ripoff from Dune), I did not get any dialogue. That took me a couple hours. The trip to Archades, same.

What I did enjoy was the NPCs and the hunts, because those little stories were really interesting.
I have read your analysis of XII and I understand where you are coming from. But I do not think it was effectively told. It's great being subtle, but if you're being subtle, you are going to have to have a lot more body for most people to pick it up. And when you have 4 hour treks before you get to the next progression of the story, you really start forgetting the subtleties.

And why exactly could El-Cid not get involved in the story. Yes, your point is accurate in that it's probably wouldn't be for the best if he went to Archades, but why did the main party not join him in Rozarrio? Why was he almost completely omitted from the game?

And the game also lacked real WOW scenes. The three that were of note (and they were good) were: (SPOILER)The opening, the Death of the Gran Kiltias and Reddas at the Pharos
The ending was an anti-climax for me. After the last scene mentioned above, I really expected to see something on par. I didn't get it. And before we talk about how realistically it portrays life, compare it to VII. The final battle against Sephiroth (especially the final, final one, where Cloud has rage against Sephiroth). And the planet coming to destroy Meteor at the end.

Or VIII, where we have a perfect conclusion to a game about a loner who is brought out of his shell by a girl. And the last boss who is identical in many respects to Squall. It reflects on many of the ideas bought out in the game. Or the ending of X, where Tidus fights his own father, and then fades away. All of these endings have some meaning.

In XII, I face some guy. Can you seriously compare Vayne to someone like Sephiroth or Kefka? His motives were there, but it's not like it was emotionally exciting.

That's my problem with XII. The story has many really interesting elements, and if you expand on them, you have a really good story. But I should not be the one expanding on them. The game should execute these elements in a way that makes it entertaining for me.

What would make it good is say Vayne survives and lives for a long time and becomes Vormav :D

In my opinion, you cannot comment on character development in FFXII until you've played Revenant Wings :spin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

In my opinion, you cannot comment on character development in FFXII until you've played Revenant Wings :spin:

---

I would agree with you as if they were planned as one long story seperated into two parts (like the Lord of the Rings movies were one story split into three seperate movies). But Revenant Wings is a spin-off. It's kind of like saying that one can't talk about VII's character development without playing/watching Advent Children, Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus and Last Order (or whatever the last one is called); or judging X on X-2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

In my opinion, you cannot comment on character development in FFXII until you've played Revenant Wings :spin:

---

I would agree with you as if they were planned as one long story seperated into two parts (like the Lord of the Rings movies were one story split into three seperate movies). But Revenant Wings is a spin-off. It's kind of like saying that one can't talk about VII's character development without playing/watching Advent Children, Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus and Last Order (or whatever the last one is called); or judging X on X-2.

---

The reason for me saying that isn't because its a Sequel/Spinoff, it has to do with the way the characters of both games are set up. In FFXII, Vaan and Penelo takes a backseat, learning from the much more important characters who are more relevant to the story (Ashe, Balthier, and Basch). So that way, when time elapses (IE: Time shifts past FFXII and to Reveant Wings), Vaan and Penelo are ready to lead the way as plot important characters. Balthier's persistence to be 'the leading man' in FFXII, and the way in RW, he's (mostly) stopped accentuates it well.

Anyway, FFXIIRW showed maturity and change in the characters, where AC, and X-2 raped the character development.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

Anyway, FFXIIRW showed maturity and change in the characters, where AC, and X-2 raped the character development.

---

Fair enough!
Anyway, this is starting to get very off-topic. I really did enjoy the World of Ivalice in both Vagrant Story and Final Fantasy XII. Playing XII, it seemed the world had a lot of depth and richness. I think Square have been really working on this area since VIII (which had a really mapped out history, etc).

Yeah, I think Squenix definitely should be making another game in Ivalice. Preferably Vagrant Story 2, although they'd probably ruin it, so make it a Vagrant Story remake. Unless you played as Sydney...ooohh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Yeah, I think Squenix definitely should be making another game in Ivalice. Preferably Vagrant Story 2, although they'd probably ruin it, so make it a Vagrant Story remake. Unless you played as Sydney...ooohh.

---

Vagrant Story 2 could be brilliant - after all, the 'story of the vagrant' doesn't even begin until the very end of the first game, so they've set themselves up for it pretty well.
However, I do fear that VS2 would be just another 'black-clad emo warrior with super-powers', like so many others these days. Maybe it's a story best left to the imagination...

Vagrant Story 2 would be probably be best off if you didn't actually play as Ashley Riot. Personally, I'd rather like to play a sequel as Callo Merlose, investigating Cardinal Batista (and his Wellspring that he has tucked away somewhere) and Ashley's disappearance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

This is of course a matter of opinion. I felt that XIIs story lacked something. But I have not analysed it in great detail, which I think you (being WK) has. It also took me several months to finish it, which probably did not help.

I have knocked this point in continuously, but I'll repeat it again. When I travelled through the Sandsea (which seems like a ripoff from Dune), I did not get any dialogue. That took me a couple hours. The trip to Archades, same.


What I did enjoy was the NPCs and the hunts, because those little stories were really interesting.
I have read your analysis of XII and I understand where you are coming from. But I do not think it was effectively told. It's great being subtle, but if you're being subtle, you are going to have to have a lot more body for most people to pick it up. And when you have 4 hour treks before you get to the next progression of the story, you really start forgetting the subtleties.

---

I agree it comes down to personal opinion.

As I've stated to you before, though I will agree the pacing is off on account that the world is massive in comparison. Its very easy to lose track of the story. I even feel there were several simple ways this could have been remedied. Yet I personally don't find anything wrong with going through a large area and not having a dialogue scene. Especially when the scenes are utterly pointless like they were in X.

Quote:

---

And why exactly could El-Cid not get involved in the story. Yes, your point is accurate in that it's probably wouldn't be for the best if he went to Archades, but why did the main party not join him in Rozarrio? Why was he almost completely omitted from the game?

---

Funny enough, reading the Wiki, his role was apparently expanded from the original script.

The reason the party couldn't help was also given in my post. Al-Cid explains his kingdom is just finally starting to step away from a military dictatorship thanks to his own families influence but Archades action in Dalmasca and Nabradia has caused suspicion in his country (since Archades' empire extends to Rozarrio's borders.) It has been taken as an act of military aggression and hardliners on the military side are ready to start war with Archades. That's how the Marquis got Rozarrio to back up his rebellion cause the military of Rozarrio was using Dalmasca's fight for independence as an excuse to start a war with Archades. I don't really feel going to Rozarrio would have helped anything except drive home the point of the political situation that Al-Cid told you when he was introduced at Mt. Burimasce.

Quote:

---

And the game also lacked real WOW scenes. The three that were of note (and they were good) were: (SPOILER)The opening, the Death of the Gran Kiltias and Reddas at the Pharos
The ending was an anti-climax for me. After the last scene mentioned above, I really expected to see something on par. I didn't get it.

---

It depends on how you define WOW moments. If you are talking about explosion and high action then the three scenes you mention are case in point as well as the destruction of the Leviathan, the parties first encounter with an Esper, and the whole sequence where your party meets under the sewers of Rabanastre are also a few.

If you are talking about story moments that change the course of the game. The Tomb of Raithwall in fact any of the places that take you through the Dynast-Kings journey, Balthier's revelation at the Phon Coast, any of the scenes where your party deals with Dr. Cid, the introduction of the (SPOILER)Occurians, Venat, and Judge Drace's death to name a few.

Emotional? Any scene dealing with Lady Ashe's struggle to choose between revenge and saving her kingdom, Basch being rejected as a traitor by the resistance, Reks's death, Drace's death (again), the entire scene at the Pharos, Gabranth's scenes with Gramis where he swears to protect Archades and Lamont. Hell, Gabranth's revelation at Bahamut where he finally begins to understand his brother. All these are quite emotional scenes imo.

Quote:

---

And before we talk about how realistically it portrays life, compare it to VII. The final battle against Sephiroth (especially the final, final one, where Cloud has rage against Sephiroth). And the planet coming to destroy Meteor at the end.

---

I have no idea how you consider that whole ordeal "realistic" the scene in question is good though it involves two characters I don't hold in high regard. (In a nutshell, Cloud is unlikable and Sephiroth is only a decent villain in my eyes). As for VII's ending... I never liked it and before I go onto the rest of your post I should make it clear I am not particulary fond of many of the endings in the series. I actually found VII's ending to be pretty pretentious to be honest with you. I don't care how it just drops you and the story. Especially when its prologue kinda kills the mystery and mystique of it all.

Quote:

---

Or VIII, where we have a perfect conclusion to a game about a loner who is brought out of his shell by a girl. And the last boss who is identical in many respects to Squall. It reflects on many of the ideas bought out in the game.

---

I never liked Ultemacia and I've always felt VIII had one of the worse endings in the series. Its so "Happily Ever After" its completely unrealistic, especially considering the world was plunged into political chaos in disc 3 and Esthar was trashed and the world has to deal with the after affects of a Lunar Cry. I don't necessarily see why everyone should be throwing a party when the job is half done imo. It just ended to perfectly for my taste and left too many loose ends.

Quote:

---

Or the ending of X, where Tidus fights his own father, and then fades away. All of these endings have some meaning.

---

Though I don't mind Tidus, I always felt his anger towards his dad was stupid and rather childish. To be honest, the whole ending of X would have been amazing had the writer stopped while he was ahead and not made every part of it somehow morbidly comical. I also despise Yuna and see her as a pretty two dimensional being so I felt no impact concerning her and her story. In fact I generally feel X has the worst cast of characters in the series.

Quote:

---

In XII, I face some guy. Can you seriously compare Vayne to someone like Sephiroth or Kefka? His motives were there, but it's not like it was emotionally exciting.

---

Yes, if only cause he was not only an antagonist I can sympathize with but generally agreed with. The fact that he lies in the gray area whereas all previous attempts at villains are decidedly evil or definetly doing the wrong thing. It was wonderful to have a story where everything wasn't necessarily black or white. In fact I found it amusing it starts rather black and white and only through the unveiling of the story do you realize that its not so simple.

Quote:

---

That's my problem with XII. The story has many really interesting elements, and if you expand on them, you have a really good story. But I should not be the one expanding on them. The game should execute these elements in a way that makes it entertaining for me.

---

I've always felt that if a story leaves no room for interpretation and audience interaction, then the writer has failed. Course I'm from the theater crowd who feel that stories are meant to be interpret and expanded on by the audience rather than have the writer leave no room for the audiences opinion. I felt XII did a good job in this regard and thats why I walked away from the game rather satisfied. Course in the end this all comes down to personal preference :cool: