Just saying...
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Just saying...
Magus is awesome.
Id pick a demon dude with scythe over a cave-woman with puffy hair any day.
Considering he's so badass that the creators of Chrono Cross chose not to put him in the sequel in fear of being the only character to receive attention and have a permanent fixture on your team is more than a monument to his fame and prestige. :cool:
Magus is a better human being than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
???Quote:
Originally Posted by neokeymaster
I personally like Robo better.
I use Magus as the main character briefly while Crono is not in the party, but that's about it...
I am not a fan of primitive people, animals, or robots joining the party, so my choices in the cast are extremely limited. I think if I played the game now, though, I would make a genuine effort to use every character as the story applies to them.
His lack of double and triple techs makes him one of my less used characters.
You are the worst though, considering you allowed one of the people who set out to destroy you over changing the most friendly person to you back into a human. I despise you...Quote:
Originally Posted by The ManMagus is a better human being than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
>>> This explains everything!..Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
That only gives you two minutes of satisfaction depending on which ending you get. Whereas Magus' awesomness can be felt for half the game. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegfriedYou are the worst though, considering you allowed one of the people who set out to destroy you over changing the most friendly person to you back into a human. I despise you...Quote:
Originally Posted by The ManMagus is a better human being than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
I know! I can see the past 10 years of loserdom with perfect clarity! It all makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb>>> This explains everything!..Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
I love Frog, I love Magus. I just watched the Frog ending on youtube and pretended that it happened as well ;)
lol, you obviously didn't understand the story at all. Magus's underlying motivation for nearly every action he undertook throughout the course of the game was to enable himself to destroy Lavos, saving humanity in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegfriedYou are the worst though, considering you allowed one of the people who set out to destroy you over changing the most friendly person to you back into a human. I despise you...Quote:
Originally Posted by The ManMagus is a better human being than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
How is it that anyone here understood what this guy just said? Cause I sure as hell didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
If you choose to kill Magus then Frog turns back into a person in the ending, if you let Magus Join you then he doesnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ,,,How is it that anyone here understood what this guy just said? Cause I sure as hell didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
Who cares? His human form looks too generic anyways.
If I save him, he never gets used, and Frog's vengeance is paramount, so...
I generally found Magus boring to use in battles, I liked the double/triple techs other combinations of characters could do :p
You mean Seven :monster:Quote:
Originally Posted by The ManMagus is a better human being than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
I c wot u did thar.Quote:
Originally Posted by crono_logicalI generally found Magus boring to use in battles, I liked the double/triple techs other combinations of characters could do :p
You mean Seven :monster:Quote:
Originally Posted by The ManMagus is a better human being than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
Absolutely no one else will, though, unless they happen to remember random crap that happened well over six years ago.
Frog doesn't even care about his form. He said it himself in one of the endings, iirc. I consider that a pretty poor reasoning for killing someone whose only crimes were all committed during an attempt to acquire enough power to save the human race from utter devastation.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nukeIf you choose to kill Magus then Frog turns back into a person in the ending, if you let Magus Join you then he doesnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ,,,How is it that anyone here understood what this guy just said? Cause I sure as hell didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
>>> I so want to play CT again and pick Magus, so I can double my Loser status. :magus:
Magus is just more efficient in later playthroughs. His magic way stronger than most characters and by the time your party reaches Lv. 70+ Having Magus, Crono and any third character except for Marle use their final abilities will net you way more damage than using dual and triple techs. Hell, Magus has two of the most powerful triple techs in the game.
Who says Frog never gets his human form back even if you choose to save Magus?
according to the anime ending Frog does get his human form back regardless of choosing Magus or not, but at one point frog does say that he deosn't mind not being turned back and rather prefers his frog form, or something to that effect i quote from memory so it's not verbatum...
I thought Magus was an awesome character. He's cool, he's got a nice background story and I like his abilities. Give him a Gold Stud, and he can cast level 2 spells with only 2 MP, and he also gets Dark Bomb, Magic Wall and Dark Matter, to name a few abilities. Omega Flare (Magus + Lucca + Robo) is my favorite Triple Tech in the game, and Dark Eternal (Magus + Lucca + Marle) isn't bad, either. Finally, Magus can fly. What's more fun than that?
Gah... I've beat the game twice, and I've picked Magus each time. That means I must be once, twice, two times a loser! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by black orb>>> This explains everything!..Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
Haha, I am so glad since I can say I got that reference. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by crono_logicalYou mean Seven :monster:Quote:
Originally Posted by The ManMagus is a better human being than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegfried
:(
Who uses loser? Honestly.
I keep Magus because he reminds me of Piccolo if he threw himself in a washing machine full of 80 gallons of bleach and purple clothes.
Basically how I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD
I always pick Magus. I like Frog as well, but I enjoy using Magus in battle because he's a good replacement for Crono when you lose him. Though I always do end up being unable to choose between Magus and Crono when I get Crono back...
If you pick your nose you're a loser.
If you pick Magus then it's all better again.
Magus just came across as another wannabe-cool fake-evil type guy that tried to pass off as epic [Sephiroth was somewhat similar to me, though he wasn't fake-evil]. I just never really cared for these stereotypical "cool loners with a cold attitude that are dark but not really because it's actually a good guy underneath it all" type personalities.
That said, I picked him anyways because of his triple techs. I definitely don't think picking him would make someone a loser.
Whoa..! Magus is alright. He just has issues due to the fact that his mother basically killed Schala who is the only person he really cared for anyway....
But really I found him useful in battle. His magic rating is well above the others and he still has a decent attack. Also his "Ultimate" equipment has a status protection..(everyone knows how annoying confuse can be)
Yeah, I know. I just really wish that RPG companies would stop throwing this character cliche at me over and over. The latest one for me has been Yuri from Tales of Vesperia [which to me was just a complete joke, seeing as how he looks like a girl and what his name means considering his personality, but that's an entirely different topic].Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ Kain ~
Of course he rocks in battle. If you can get over the fact that he's basically a revamped version of that green guy from that dragonball show, he's actually pretty awesome [I'm kind of a sucker for those people with dark powers]. Having magical power and decent physical offensive power is definitely my style, though I didn't use his physical aspect much.Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ Kain ~
Anti-hero's always stand out. So I pick magus. I prefer to have him in battle. Plus, stand alone techs, he wrecks as much, if not more than Crono.
Actually, a majority of the time, the battle would be over after using Luminaire. I generally get tired of anti-heroes because in these video games [as well as anime] I just see the same personality over and over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zechs
Except he isn't really a good guy underneath it all. He's motivated entirley by selfish desires. The only real care he has is his sisters safefty. He shows time and time again he cares little for the lives of others, and likely only helped revive Crono for purposes of killing Lavos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
How exactly is he a good guy underneath it all?
He wants to kill Lavos because, if unmolested, will result in the destruction of humanity. I'd say that's a rather large selfless desire. I always interpreted his apparent disregard for the lives of others as a façade maintained to win the trust of the Mystics; whether the fact that he is willing to go to such extents to destroy Lavos makes him evil is a philosophical question raised but ultimately unanswered by the game.
He doesn't want to kill Lavos because Lavos is going to destroy the world, he wants to kill Lavos to get revenge.
He states quite directly at one point its for revenge. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by The Man
And if his disregard for lives was nothing more than a facade, he'd likely be a little LESS bitter after joining you. Though his words to about Crono and chat with Ozzie if you let him join you say he's still a mean, mean person. :p
Oh he's definitely bitter, but the reason he even wants revenge is clearly because of what Lavos did to humanity during his time period. Certainly getting revenge by destroying Lavos is one of the best ways to make sure that doesn't happen again.
True, its a good way to stop it from happening, but that seemed more like a nice, but unnescessary, perk.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
I imagine even if Lavos would never do any more damage Magus would still try to kill him. The fact his revenge would save humanity doesn't really play into his motives. :p
I doubt he'd care as much if Lavos were incapable of doing as much damage to humanity. Then again one can only speculate, since he doesn't exactly talk about his internal motives.
The way everyone in Zeal talks about him and how he acts towards her, it's heavily implied that his sister means the world to him. Also considering he was willing to lay waste to humanity just to build enough power to take on Lavos, I get the sense his motives weren't terribly noble.
I wouldn't really categorise what he did as 'laying waste', just as waging war. Then again it's entirely possible he would've utterly destroyed humanity if it had been necessary to destroy Lavos, but I never really got that impression.
Hey, that's not very nice to say to my Brother. He fight as good as you even blast a few punks while he was with Crono and the gang.
I haven't been around lately, so I'm late to respond. But this pretty much sums up why Magus is really "good underneath it all". He's puts on a selfish/cold façade, mostly for the reasons you specified, but probably also because of how he grew up as well [dealing with Queen Zeal after she was corrupted and their abuse of his sister and her powers].Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Yes he wants to kill Lavos for revenge, but the basis for that revenge is more-or-less based on his compassion for others. It's also quite clear that he cared/still cares for Schala very much as Kawaii Ryûkishi pointed out.
Just to remind everyone...
Picking Magus instead of fighting him=loserdom
PS. The attention to detail by Squaresoft at this point in the company's career is astounding considering both this game and FFVI.
go magus!
tho i renamed him janus
hehe anus
First time I played the game I took Magus along and was disappointed to note that he had little character development beyond what had already happened and generally stood around doing and saying nothing, to which I said to myself "What a crock. I'm killing him next time."
And from then on, that is what I did. Every time.
What you say? :Eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thread of Evil
In all honesty, I do have a rather prolonged rant on the subject of Magus as one of the most unique and stylistically intriguing characters ever conceived in a video game series, but it was written for a considerably less formal setting than this (which gives you an indication of how just informal it had to necessarily be <_< >_>), and it will take a moment or two to "clean up". That, and I will need to wait for at least one additional post, to avert double-posting scorn. In the meantime, I believe Wolf Kanno said it best in page one of this thread:
Yeah, mate. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Although I don't use Magus very often after he joins the party, I let him live just because the Frog vs Magus fight is very anti-climactic in the grand scheme of things.
Magus is one of my favorite characters, not because of the bad ass appeal but because he has a very straight forward want.
While I would have to say all the other characters did ring strong to me, magus hit me the most.
He'd to anything to destroy the thing that destroyed the only thing that meant the world to him, even if it means destroying the actual world.
For some reason, even if the loves for family, wanting to kill the thing that destroys the world, not for the world, but for your love, is one of the most powerful scenerioes that could exist in my mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
I can agree with this. This is an approach I haven't seen much in video game characters. A villain who seeks power not for the power's sake, but out of love (Not even romantic love, which I find pretty interesting). Sure, vengeance is a pretty common theme in both heroes and villains, but to me the methods he was willing to take just for the sake of his sister were touching in a somewhat dark way.
I cant honestly understand how anyone could pick a Frog over Magus.
Ok the Frog might have awesome theme music but come on.
He was a mediocre unit overall, but I'll be damned if he wasn't the coolest, most badass video-game character back then.
There's something a bit "ho-hum" about watching Leap Slash be executed eleven times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish Delight
I generally make an alternate saved game at that point and then continue on with him joining up. Then later I'll come back and slay him in the other save file. With two save files it's possible to easily get all the non new-game+ endings.
I love Magus and Frog, despite being a loser I guess ;|..
I love Magus, he is my favorite character in Chrono Trigger!
And someone who think people is loser just because of the kind of characters they use in a game, is more loser :p
Tottaly true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Actually, as some other has said in the thread, he does have group techniques, and they are really good!Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
He is very good in battle, and that is a reason why if you use him you are not a loser ;D ...You can kick asses with him!
Yeah you're right!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
You just took the words from my mouth! :)
And for all those saying that Magus is bad and some proof is that he wants revenge instead of saving the world, I can say... Is there something wrong in revenge? I think the motives really don't matter when someone is taking revenge killing some beast that has caused, can cause, and will cause so much suffering to so much people in the world!
In a case like that, you don't need to mind about the motives but just joining forces with those who really want to settle things and have the power to do it ;)!
I just played this game a few days ago, and I feel like ranting about Magus [yet again, look out].
So here we go: Even though I can be shallow when it comes to character design, I won't let the fact that he's ugly as hell taint my opinion of Magus since there are plenty of ugly characters out there which are awesome. I'll just consider the fact that he's yet another cliche "badass" type character archetype which many audiences [especially western ones] seem to easily fall for. I have never liked the apathetic/quiet/I'm-too-cool-for-you/I'm-a-loner types, and I hate them more and more every time I see them repeated in 95% of JRPG's and anime out there.
But first, let's go to his intellect: That pittance stupidly thinks he can solo lavos when he has no healing magic of any kind, and has poor offense. Great logic Magus. It's a good thing you were interrupted before properly completing that summon, eh? It's also a good thing that he realized he had to join your party, so he could get access to all of your hard-earned mystical weapons and omnipotent artifacts. This way, he could actually be able to at least have a chance at his revenge goal. Thank goodness you guys are there to save him.
Now we'll go to his uselessness in battle: Many people are willing to zealously defend him to the death because they think he's that cool. Generally, the first thing I hear from someone is how his stats are very high in the game without tabs, especially his magic [which he easily out-does everyone else in stat-wise]. While this may be true, let's think practically:
-Unless you're one of the three gamers I've talked to that actually felt like never using tabs during your first play-through before completing the game for the first time, I consider this fact to be irrelevant since 95% of save files you come across [if not more] will have tabs that were used.
-Who cares if his magic stat is the highest in the game? Dark Matter's damage multiplier sucks to hell and beyond, and is easily out-damaged by Luminaire and is also out-damaged by Flare, making his high magic stat very useless. You'd need Prism Specs in order to have Dark Matter's damage compare to Luminaire's, to which end, if you're going to use Prism Specs then they might as well be on Crono, where they'd really be put to better use [this is only hypothetical, in the case of those that don't want to use a Gold Stud or any other accessory].
-None of his attacks are single target [unless you count Dark Bomb on the occasions that no other monster will be near it, though as you'd guess, it deals trash for damage, and Black Hole which I find to be useless since for whatever reason monsters rarely get close enough to be caught in it, and it's useless for boss monsters]. This can be extremely annoying and draining during the later game when you're fighting groups of enemies or bosses that are in parts, which will give you nasty counterattacks if you hit certain parts under certain conditions. Just as an example, if you hit the Lavos Spawn shell with anything, it'll retaliate by spamming that needle attack on you. If you hit Queen Zeal's hands, she'll use MP Buster and Life Shaver every single time. In situations like this where single target is more preferred, Magus can either use Magic Barrier [which in all honesty doesn't seem to do a whole lot], or use a normal attack.
-Speaking of normal attacks, his sucks, like almost everyone else's does late-game [by the time you get him and forward], and pretty much every turn you get on every character, you'll be using a tech of some kind. Does he have a nice physical tech? No, he only has all-target magic that has low damage multipliers [but hey, at least his Ice 2 is better than Marle's Ice 2!].
This is why Magus not only seriously lacks versatility in his setup, but also has little to no cohesion with any party combination you can think of. Triple techs usually aren't useful since you end up dealing more damage by having everyone use single techs or by using one single and one double. Even then, the only kind of triple tech that involves him requires a rock [to refresh anyone's memory, this means you need to give up an accessory just to be able to use it], which is all aside from the fact that he has no double techs with anyone.
I keep Magus alive because it's fun to hear his battle music while fighting Queen Zeal on top of the Black Omen, and nothing more. Though as you'd imagine, he's nearly useless in that fight.
For the record, I'm not really a fan of Frog either. And I apologize if I offended the Magus fans, but I felt like I had to blow off some steam here. As some people here already know, I get pretty sick of these types of characters.
While I will readily admit that much of my like of Magus comes from his character design, I think you are being a little harsh.
The advantage of the high magic stat is that the Fire/Ice/Lightning/Dark Mist attacks do a ton more damage than any other characters, as well as allowing him to exploit multiple enemy weaknesses to boot. This allows you nuke random encounters in a far more proficient manner. If I recall he also has the most/very high TP, though I could be mistaken. (Seeing as most of the post game my characters have 99 I don't think its really relevant)
Also, he has his own 'ultimate' equipment which is extremely easy and fast to acquire. You can easily run into the fort, grab it, and leave right after you get the Epoch back. Then do the other side quests in whatever order you fancy.
I don't think it really matters if he thought he could solo Lavos or not, it was more a consumed with revenge he was going to give Lavos everything he had or die trying. More of a personal score to settle, not a logical battle plan in the least. (I have soloed Lavos before with Magus, so it is possible. :) )
As for the ugly, I really liked his character sprite, however I did find his character portrait and FMV appearances to be somewhat lacking. As for the apathetic/quiet/loner archetype, in most RPGs I usually consider the bulk of the party to be idiots that I wouldn't want to talk to. If a character has the same attitude I can't say it doesn't enamor them some to me.
Yeah, I know I am. Truth be told, I'm probably one of the most ranty-ravy "I hate [blank]" people out there. Few people will flame characters unjustly as much as I will.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I wouldn't even say a ton, just more. Besides, almost everything non-boss dies in one bare Luminaire anyways [by bare, I mean no Prism Specs to enhance it dramatically].Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
You have to get it for him afterwards, but I think the aim here was lost. In the end, he needs your help to do so since for whatever reason, he doesn't think to do it on his own. Now of course, nothing's wrong with some character flaws or mistakes, but when it comes to characters that annoy me yet get a lot of hype, I tend to be harsher on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Yeah, but stupidity is stupidity. He was far too weak to be able to even be a match for Lavos at that stage, but he thought so anyways despite his past experience and knowledge about Lavos, which strikes me as silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Hell, I'll admit that I like his sprite too. I think it looks damn cool. However the artwork of his face is just horrendous, but I'm sure he wasn't intended to look handsome. I can overlook that though. I've liked non-pretty characters before.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I actually can understand what you mean by this. I really can. Still... two "annoying"s don't make a "good". It would be less annoying if I hadn't seen this type of character so much, but for goodness' sake, there are Magus-type characters everywhere. I was just telling Wolf Kanno [who seems to know where I'm coming from, though he still adores Magus] in PM that I think it's lame how I'm seeing Magus-types all over the place. It wasn't even that bad back then, but now it's out of control. Almost every JRPG/anime has some Magus-like character. They all act the same way and say the same types of things. It just drives me nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
You're very intelligent and I enjoy your responses on these forums. Regardless, I needed something to rage about tonight, and I think I satisfied my rant-urge for now. I have a feeling I'm going to get shot by all the Magus-lovers though. I generally end up detesting the characters that people tend to fanboy/fangirl over, like Cloud/Sephiroth/Amarant/Magus/Arumat/Adray/Dias/etc.
Fanboys making you dislike the object of their affection is a perfectly normal reaction. Heck, they even make me like the games/characters I already like just a little bit less :D
People bent on revenge don't always act in ways that normal people would consider to make the most sense. Also, he only ever saw Lavos as a little kid. Sure his power must have seemed insurmountable, but then again his power had grown immeasurably since that point as well. From my take on it he was basically living his life for his personal revenge against Lavos. He had a chance to fight him, and from his mindset there was no way he couldn't take it up.Quote:
Yeah, but stupidity is stupidity. He was far too weak to be able to even be a match for Lavos at that stage, but he thought so anyways despite his past experience and knowledge about Lavos, which strikes me as silly.
Also, storyline wise Magus is a lot stronger than any party members, and he also had no way of knowing how much they had grown since they faced him in his castle. Factor that in with the them barging in to his castle trying to kill him and you can see why he didn't consider teaming up with you. Only after his revenge and his death were robed of him has he sunk low enough to fall in with you.
Your coments seem somewhat non-sequeter. What I meant to say that in terms of party utility he can become equiped with his ultimate (moon armor is better, I know) gear within a few minutes of having access to the flying Epoch. This makes him much stronger defensively than the other characters are before you get all the quests done.Quote:
You have to get it for him afterwards, but I think the aim here was lost. In the end, he needs your help to do so since for whatever reason, he doesn't think to do it on his own. Now of course, nothing's wrong with some character flaws or mistakes, but when it comes to characters that annoy me yet get a lot of hype, I tend to be harsher on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0 ^
Also, he has his own 'ultimate' equipment which is extremely easy and fast to acquire.
Even though you defeat him once and then [since the portal is well-open to you] potentially being defeated again, by Frog fighting solo?Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Well, yes, of course. This was my original point. It took some major sense to be slapped to him for him to realize that this was his best option [aside from it being his only available option at that point]. As I recall, in the original timeline he was meant to be destroyed by Lavos at the time he summoned him [which your interfering prevents].Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Me too! I used to love certain characters, but their images were tarnished because of all the kiddie hype over them. I hate letting the opinions of others indirectly taint mine, but I can only preserve so much patience against annoying hype before I start to get irritated by the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Well, to be fair the first time you fight him it is three on one, and he is busy summoning Lavos at the same time. It also states in the game that Lavos drains Magus's power when they fight. that is why he is easy pickings if you chose to fight him. (not to mention can't use all the snazzy attacks he used on you earlier.)Quote:
Even though you defeat him once and then [since the portal is well-open to you] potentially being defeated again, by Frog fighting solo?
Magus wasn't in Zeal on the original day of Lavos to be destroyed by him. And Janus was gated to 600 A.D. (less however many years it was) before Lavos showed any of his true world destroying power. So it is understandable that Magus can't get an accurate read of how strong he is.Quote:
As I recall, in the original timeline he was meant to be destroyed by Lavos at the time he summoned him [which your interfering prevents].
EDIT: Oh, you mean he was destroyed by Lavos in 600 A.D when he summoned him. I don't recall hearing about that one way or the other. It would make sense that he became Lavos chow, but usually summoning Lavos has other catastrophic events accompanying it. For him to actualy summon Lavos and fight without the world noticing seems unlikely to me. More plausible was that he was gated like when you fought him, though to whereabouts unknown. (OMG, maybe he's the entity! ;)) Although it is entirely possible he is too strong to be pulled into a gate by Lavos when he is at full health.
This is something I've never thought about before.
In my perspective, for Magus, teaming up with the party is a fate worse than death. However, he was denied death and so he is consigned to this fate. I don't think he actually thought the party would defeat Lavos when he joined them, though I don't suppose I can back this up.Quote:
It took some major sense to be slapped to him for him to realize that this was his best option
I just played through the game three times [two new game+] and I don't remember seeing anything having to do with Lavos draining his power. Could you be specific about when exactly this was stated?Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Yes. From what I understand, this is made clear in the Japanese version.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
This could be a viable argument. Though this is a bit of a stretch [and it's not some lame attempt to brag], it really isn't very hard to kill him solo doing your first run-through. You could argue that it's considered canon that all three party members were active in fighting him, but in all honesty it still comes down to lacking the power to overpower your party [yet he thinks he can fight Lavos... ?].Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
You... could argue this, however I don't really see enough dialogue in the English version to indicate that he truly felt that joining the party was so disgraceful that it would be comparable to dying. I think he truly took some kind of liking to them, or he wouldn't have passed on his advice on a way to save Crono [which he does even if you choose to kill him]. As for seeking death, I never got this impression either. He seems a little too proud to accept defeat so easily. Power-hungry people are generally only obsessed with finding more power to unleash on their target. More likely he overestimated his power, or underestimated his opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
YouTube - Xytrasx's ChannelQuote:
I just played through the game three times [two new game+] and I don't remember seeing anything having to do with Lavos draining his power. Could you be specific about when exactly this was stated?
2:43 in, "Magus: Aaah!! My powers are being drained!"
I didn't notice it for a few playthroughs either.
Fair enough, makes sense.Quote:
Yes. From what I understand, this is made clear in the Japanese version.
I always figured he as spending a lot of energy summoning Lavos while he was fighting you, meaning if you had met under normal circumstances he would mop the floor with you. Also remember how powerful Spekkio considers Magus to be. (I don't have a direct quote atm.)Quote:
but in all honesty it still comes down to lacking the power to overpower your party [yet he thinks he can fight Lavos... ?].
I didn't so much mean to imply Magus was seeking death, just that he had only ever envisioned killing Lavos himself or dieing trying to. Only once it finally set in that he would get neither of these did he consider joining the party. As you mentioned, he is extremely proud, so to me it seems joining with Crono & Co. is about on the same level as dieing for him, possibly lower.
After going back and playing a little bit of CT because of this, I can definitely say that the awesome theme of his does certainly influence my affection for him as a character.
You're saying that this had a permanent drain effect on him? I don't mean to be difficult, but wouldn't the others be suffering the same power drain in this situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
This is true [he says something like "he could teach me a thing or two about magic"], but the fact still remains that Magus' spells [including Dark Matter] have the lowest damage multipliers in the game, which make his really high magic stat not mean much.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
In the end however, they're basically shown to all be "equals" [more-or-less] in terms of power since in the end it doesn't really matter who's in your party, so joining Crono & Co. can't seriously be all that bad. The only question I have is what truly motivated Magus to share the information about Gasper and the Chrono Trigger whether you kill him or not. It's all speculation if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Magus' battle theme is one of the best boss battle musics ever made to this day. I always keep Magus in my party anyways so I can hear it when I fight Queen Zeal.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I always assume there is a difference in a characters in game strength and their story line strength. In so many games the main character surpasses the rest of the party in story sequences, but is on similar terms gameplay wise. So in order to get a read on how strong a character 'actually is' I usually don't focus on the in battle elements. And all the dialoge in the game seems to point to Magus being significantly stronger than the party.
The permanent drain isn't explicitly corroborated, but it explains everything quite nicely. Also note there is a significant difference between "I can't get up because all my power has been sucked out of me" and "I can't get up because I just got the crap beaten out of me." The party was suffering from the later, while his dialog was indicating Magus was suffering from the former. Perhaps the reason Lavos drained his strength in the first place was because he felt more threatened by Magus than by anyone else?(Pure speculation I know, you don't have to point it out. :))Quote:
You're saying that this had a permanent drain effect on him? I don't mean to be difficult, but wouldn't the others be suffering the same power drain in this situation?
The reason Magus has such a low multiplier on Dark Matter is to keep the game balanced because his magic stat is so high. (Right now I'm addressing how his stats don't translate to his plot related strength, not trying to sell him to you as a party memeber). I just loaded up my save game in which neither Magus or Chrono have gotten any magic tabs.
Luminaire (99+47)*20.5 = 2993
Dark Matter (99+99)*15.5 = 3069
So if you don't boost Chrono's magic stat with items or tabs they are the same strength. Can you imagine how overpowered Magus would be if Dark Matter had the same x20.5 multiplier Luminaire had?
I always liked his lines before you fight him/zeal as well, to me it really helped set the atmosphere for the fight. Though to you they are probably like nails on the chalkboard :PQuote:
Magus' battle theme is one of the best boss battle musics ever made to this day. I always keep Magus in my party anyways so I can hear it when I fight Queen Zeal.
I won't attack it. It just seems like it's a bit of a stretch is all. But my original point is that a party of three above-average strength heroes can overpower Magus early on, yet for some reason he thinks he has what it takes to take on Lavos. You could say it was because he was in the middle of summoning, but you could also say that he just as easily stopped the spell entirely to focus on his fight with your party [hence it going "wrong"].Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
That was exactly my point in my rant post though. His high magic stat is basically useless because his spells can't make efficient use of it. The stat almost might as well have not been that high at all in all honesty. Basically, you have to make sure to never give Crono any tabs, then have Magus level up dramatically just so his damage can catch up to a bare Luminaire. In short, his high magic stat is basically there to say that his tier 2 spells are better than everyone else's, and that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I don't see the logic of the creators giving him a high magic stat if they were going to give him such weak spells. Most pro-Magus fanboys do not realize this, and blindly announce that he's the most powerful character in the game without giving any analysis on the subject [clearly], which annoys me. Had they actually made Magus deal as much damage with Dark Matter as Luminaire or even Lucca's Flare, I'd probably feel differently about Magus. Though I'm still frustrated with his lack of physical tech. I know he's mainly a magic-user, but seriously just one physical tech would have been helpful and given him some versatility to keep his character cohesive with other party combinations [I'm not even going to go into his lack of dual techs and the triple techs which demand you replace someone's accessory with a rock].
Not necessarily nails on the chalkboard, but I wasn't exactly impressed with it. I was more annoyed by the fact that he exchanged practically no real dialogue with Queen Zeal, other than a short "muah-ha-ha" speech. Beyond that, he neither displayed any regret, hatred, or sympathy for his mother. Nothing. Most people would give me the typical arguments of "well he really doesn't care, because that's the badass he is" or "he's too cool to care about mommy" or "he's too busy with his revenge path against Lavos to really care" or something like that. But in all honesty, I thought it was poorly written dialogue and I really didn't buy it. I have to admit that when I first played through the game, I was so excited to see if Magus would say anything to Queen Zeal if you brought him to fight her. Upon seeing that pathetic dialogue, I was extremely disappointed ".... that was it... ?". He gets practically no character development at all once he joins your party, and development prior to that wasn't impressive to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Please do, defending my ideas only ensures I have to think them through more thoroughly.Quote:
I won't attack it.
Well, anyone who says Magus is by far the strongest is a little out to left field.Quote:
Most pro-Magus fanboys do not realize this, and blindly announce that he's the most powerful character in the game without giving any analysis on the subject
I think you are underestimating the difference between his magic damage and the rest of the party. It is important to note that his Lit/Fire/Ice multipliers are x7.5 compared to the regular 5.75. At LV 80 (when Magus maxes out magic, which I would consider the end of the progression curves.)Quote:
His high magic stat is basically useless because his spells can't make efficient use of it.
Magus Dark Matter: 2775
Crono Luminair: 2419
So at Lv 80 Crono would have to have consumed a whopping 17 magic tabs to break even with Dark Matter.
Lightning 2:
Magus: 1343
Crono: 679
That is twice as much damage Magus is doing with his Lightning 2 spell over Crono.
So although Dark Matter has a poor multiplier it still does more damage when cast unless you are in the high 90s or have been power feeding Crono magic tabs. (Dark Matter runs ~15% more powerful for most of the game.)Quote:
Had they actually made Magus deal as much damage with Dark Matter as Luminaire or even Lucca's Flare, I'd probably feel differently about Magus.
You could compare him to a caster like Lucca, and his magical damage is more in line (negligibly more on Dark Matter and only 40% more damage on Fire 2.), but he has more HP/Defense/Physical Attack strength. As mentioned he lacks the Utility of double and triple tecs, but I think it evens it out. (I don't even consider him as having triple techs as all, so don't even feel the need to bring up rocks :))
I also didn't find Dual/Triple techs nearly as effective in the late game as they were through it, though I don't think this is a thread to get into that mechanic. Suffice to say that the lack of dual techs isn't too much of a handicap to me. (It would be completely debilitating in the earlier stages of the game.)
So in conclusion is he the complete do everything package? No, of course not. He is balanced just like any other character. (Well, I think Crono is a little on the overpowered side when equipped with the Rainbow.)
Usually to me 'development' of a character like Magus means turn him into a sissy character (for lack of better word) I hate. So in that vein I was somewhat glad to see a lack of development. I was kind of disappointed in his lack of involvement in a lot of the game once you got him, I wish he would have had more lines, though in some ways this does highlight the fact that he still wasn't exactly 'one of you'. (Or more likely the developers didn't put as much effort in because he as optional.)Quote:
He gets practically no character development at all once he joins your party, and development prior to that wasn't impressive to begin with.
That isn't a lot, though. The game is overly filled with them. I always pumped a lot of tabs into Crono because his output makes the most use out of them. Somehow I feel that calculation of yours is off though, because my Luminaire generally does 3.9k and Crono's Magic is only 55 if I recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I also don't think this is very relevant because like I said, you get tabs like crazy, so it's silly to make sure nobody else progresses just to keep Magus ahead of everyone. In the end, everyone's stats will get crazy high up because tabs are pumped into your inventory like a gumball machine. And it's even more of a joke once you get a character to 99 and you start fighting Spekkio in his pink Nu form [nice, 10 of each tab type for his defeat].
Yes, I know that. I don't mean to sound rude, but I've already covered this twice. My point was - who cares if his tier 2 magic is better than everyone else's? Most tier 2 magic is a waste of time unless it's Marle's case or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I don't even consider his physical attack strength to be relevant. He has no physical techs, so having him attack is pretty useless. Same with Lucca and Marle.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I don't think so. In the end, his magic damage output isn't going to be impressive in comparison to everyone else's, to the point where his value is pretty much equal to some of the other party members. Being as such, his lack of versatility and cohesion does not get evened out in my opinion. And I don't know if it's just me, but I actually find Robo a hell of a lot more useful than Magus gameplay-wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Well it depends. Triple techs in almost all cases are always inferior to three single techs, or one dual and one single. One dual tech and one single in some cases can actually prove somewhat more efficient, it just depends.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Give Crono the Rainbow Sword and Prism Specs and he's ridiculously overpowered. I solo'd the pink Nu Spekkio using Crono with level 50 stats. Of course, you could do that with any character I'm sure, but I found it to be especially easy with Crono. However, he is a main hero type, so I don't really find it unusual that they gave him a lot of potential for power. I felt the same way about the main hero for DQ IV for the NES [for those that didn't play it, he's extremely strong, equips the most powerful armours and weapons in the game, has amazing healing magic, and devastating offensive magic, not to mention a spell that has small chances to wreak total destruction in various ways].Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Aw, a sissy? Why does development have to mean turning someone into a sissy? Everyone has a backstory. Is someone a sissy because they might have actual thoughts and serious foundation for their motivations? I'm just the opposite, in the sense that seeing a guy that tries way too hard to be an apathetic badass really irritates me and doesn't impress me in the slightest. It strikes me as a very typical, bland, McCafé-coffee type character that I just see way too often, and it makes me roll my eyes and think "great, another one of these". I feel that it's the tall-tale sign of a poorly written character by a writer that falls back on a weak cliche to try and impress people [which seems to work on a great many people, this type of character is generally popular with western culture people, especially Americans].Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Aside from that, having a lot more dialogue lines and actually displaying some interaction would've given him more personality that might have made me think I was wrong to prejudge him based on his initial attitude or looks. However, this wasn't the case, and even though this is an old game, this cliche was still very prevalent back then in many anime/manga.
I only enjoy playing as human characters. With Crono out of the picture, I had to use Magus, Lucca, and Marle as the alternatives would leave me an all-female party or a party without all humans.
I feel like Magus would have benefited if the game was remade and had more dialogue and depth like the plots of today's games are supposed to —
What do you mean by a "McCafé-coffee type character"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
I try not to get carried away because I'm an extremely opinionated person [as most of you guys have probably noticed by now], and I tend to go overboard sometimes. The thing is, I end up sounding a lot more aggressive and offensive than I actually am or intend, so I try to watch myself and be polite. That notion of yours was a stretch, but I can see how one might arrive to that conclusion, so I didn't think it warranted attacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Aw, you don't like all-female parties? And I know Magus is supposed to be human, but he looks like a demon or something. Did being around demons change his genetic makeup somehow? He started out as a human boy, and neither his mother nor Schala looked that way [and I'm not counting the Queen Zeal boss form that you fight on top of the Black Omen].Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
You might be right about that. If he had a lot more depth to his otherwise very expected character, I might have actually liked him a lot. Sometimes I like a character so much, that I'll use them in my party even if they aren't that great. Sometimes I'll even force them to be great if I like them that much. It's just disappointing when I prejudge characters like this based on their initial presentation and their looks, and end up being absolutely correct about them 98% of the time. This is a sign of a character that gets recycled over and over. In some ways I almost want to say that it's some kind of "Mary Sue" for apathetic badass types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
McDonalds coffee is really boring-tasting coffee. It's about as plain as you can get. Forward from that, it's been the trend for many restaurants, fast food places, book stores, and so on, to have starbucks-like selections for their coffee menu, down to the pastries. McDonalds of course, has followed into this trend. Do their McCafé selections actually taste good? The answer is no. I've tasted all of their McCafé flavours, and they were nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
It's one thing to come out attacking someone aggressively, but when we have been going back and forth for a few posts it's more open game. ;)
I knew that choice of words was going to get me in trouble. I usually spend a few minutes searching around for something more appropriate, but I got lazy :(Quote:
'sissy'
I threw the number up there because I didn't appreciate how much the difference was until I ran them myself. I use tier 2 magic all the time to nuke groups of enemies, and it works especially well because with Magus as you can exploit any elemental weakness. Thats the difference, with most characters tier 2 magic is useless, with Magus it is viable. I consider this to be his greatest strength.Quote:
Yes, I know that. I don't mean to sound rude, but I've already covered this twice. My point was - who cares if his tier 2 magic is better than everyone else's? Most tier 2 magic is a waste of time unless it's Marle's case or something.
I know exactly how you feel, though Frog is one of the few exceptions.Quote:
I only enjoy playing as human characters. With Crono out of the picture, I had to use Magus, Lucca, and Marle as the alternatives would leave me an all-female party or a party without all humans.
I would imagine he styled himself to look the part as leader of the mystics. And we never got to see what his father looked like :)Quote:
And I know Magus is supposed to be human, but he looks like a demon or something. Did being around demons change his genetic makeup somehow?
They jived with the numbers I got out of my saved game. All the numbers don't take into account prisim specs.Quote:
Somehow I feel that calculation of yours is off though, because my Luminaire generally does 3.9k and Crono's Magic is only 55 if I recall.
I don't consider it super important, but it is certainly a plus to me. I did, however neglect to mention he has a speed stat of 12 to Lucca's 6. Which is important as Speed Tabs aren't plentiful until you start clearing the Black Omen, which is usually the last thing people do.Quote:
I don't even consider his physical attack strength to be relevant. He has no physical techs, so having him attack is pretty useless. Same with Lucca and Marle.
I found the triple techs quite powerful when you first get access to them, but get outpaced soon afterwards. Though some like 3D-Attack are never useful as the techs contributing to it are of such un-equal power. (X-Strike + Triple Kick? Come on.) I actually find that most of the time at the end of the game it is better for everyone to use single techs anyways.
I would also like to point out that although you cite Dark Matter as having a weak multiplier, it is something he can still hold above the characters who don't have a Lv3 nuke at all.
I wasn't so much wanting to talk about Crono as I couldn't in good faith say that all the characters were balanced while I felt he was much stronger.Quote:
However, he is a main hero type, so I don't really find it unusual that they gave him a lot of potential for power
Well, it appears what we were thinking of in terms of development was quite different. I was referring to character development as the desire to have the character change and grow over the course of the story. A textbook case (for me) would be Squall from FFVIII. I actualy identified with him somewhat strongly in the beginning of the game, and in the end he as turned into someone I truly despise. This sort of transition is not entirely uncommon in media, and it truly vexes me whenever I see it. And in my experience this is what people mean when they say characters in the vein of Magus should 'develop' more. (A hostile reaction not unlike yours to the character archetype in general.)Quote:
Aw, a sissy?... (whole bunch more text)
In terms of fleshing out Magus more, I think this is an excellent idea.
Lol. I laugh because I'm generally apathetic about a lot of things (or extremely passionate, I'm a very binary person) and it irritates the hell out of me that most people seem to think I'm trying to be apathetic when I genuinely don't care about something.Quote:
...in the sense that seeing a guy that tries way too hard to be an apathetic badass really irritates me and doesn't impress me in the slightest.
I sure hope I didn't miss anything.
EDIT: I totally did.
I usually give all my magic tabs to whichever healer I'm going to use, actually. In my experience, of the people I know who play, without heavy New Game+ farming it would be highly unusually for him to get 17 unless that is the player's main focus.
And in further thought after typing the last paragraph, it's not Magus's low Dark Matter multiplier that hurts him, it's the fact that stats cap out at 99.
That still isn't a lot though. I'm only on my second play-through of the game...Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Yeah but this isn't really worth mentioning since it's the same for everyone else as well. Whatever the stat cap is, everyone will have the chance to hit it, and you'll be in the same situation again. Basically, it sounds like you're saying that they have to make the stat cap higher for Magus alone [but keeping the limitation on everyone else] so he can shine.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
May I ask why? I'm only curious. Squall is a so-so character to me, so I don't really think much of him either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Hm, looks like I was underestimating the number of magic tabs in a play through. There are 18 Tabs in a game (w/o Spekkio), so you have to give just under half of your tabs to Crono to have Luminaire be more powerful than Dark Matter in two playthroughs. It is still significant. Having a character need half of your magic tabs to pull even in damage would certianly indicate one is more powerful than the other.
I say this because effectively Dark matter stops getting stronger at Lv80, whereas Luminaire continues to grow until 99. (And is increased by tabs.) Had the limit been 200 Dark Matter would still be ~15% stronger at Lv99, instead of breaking even with Luminaire. Tabs still would have made Luminaire eventually over power Dark Matter, but the spells would remain approximately the same power in relation to each other. (Raising the stat cap helps people who max out naturally, so it also affects characters like Lucca.)Quote:
Yeah but this isn't really worth mentioning since it's the same for everyone else as well. Whatever the stat cap is, everyone will have the chance to hit it, and you'll be in the same situation again. Basically, it sounds like you're saying that they have to make the stat cap higher for Magus alone [but keeping the limitation on everyone else] so he can shine.
When I get back from work :DQuote:
May I ask why? I'm only curious. Squall is a so-so character to me, so I don't really think much of him either way.
I'm still unsure, because although I gave Crono some Magic Tabs, I didn't give him all of them yet the output is incredible. And yes, I say it's poor balancing. On a sidenote, I don't really find any use for putting them into healers since from my experience they're able to keep up with the damage naturally [Robo is the best for this in my opinion].Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
While this may be true, I don't see much use in pointing out "what if the stat cap was higher?" since it's a "what if". To me, it almost seems the same as saying "what if [blank]'s damage multiplier was 40.5 instead? What then, huh?", since both are scenarios that are outside of the designer's intentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I look forward to it!Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
If the game didn't give you Tabs to alter stats though, Magus would be one of the strongest characters naturally since Crono's magic only reaches 46 at max level, they would be on equal terms, though Lucca's standing in the game would go up.
In regards to the significance of Magus' super versions of everyone's spells. It is important cause it allows him to be versatile and efficient. It wouldn't mean much if you are simply Flare/Luminaire/Dark Matter spamming but if you actually care not to blow through ethers (despite them being numerous) Magus allows you to blast your way through dungeons with little effort and little MP cost. Until you get some of the final spells in the game Dark Mist is probably one of the nastiest spells in the game.
In terms of storytelling and character development, I kinda wonder what the point is. We see everything in regards to Magus' past so its not like he would give us any real insight to who he was. He was a bratty little kid to begin with so its not like his personality is really a stretch from his childhood. In regards to his speech with Zeal, once again we have to remember that Janus never got along with his mother and since he was taken at a young age any attempts to foster feelings of love or hate for her are gone. His dialect of disgust is fitting cause his last real contact with her was as the Prophet where he got to see first hand her greed and how much of a tool she is. In that state of mind, would it matter if he made some great proclamation? It would be like talking to a wall.
For the rest of his dialogue, if they had written more it would most like be nothing but snarky comments and "cool" boasting so I highly doubt it would somehow flesh him out. It would only give more fodder for the haters to complain about and more annoying lines for the fanboys to misquote.
Yeah I understand, and that's basically what VeloZer0 said, but again, that's like saying "well if the game was coded so that Luminaire's multiplier was merely slightly higher, then Magus wouldn't be able to catch up to it no matter what". The point is that the game does make a lot of Tabs available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Yeah, but only at later, like on your third or fourth New Game+ though once he's attained that level to have enough Magic for that. I don't really find much problem with using Ethers since as you said, you get astounding heaps of them. Plus there are save points conveniently placed relatively close to eachother, so Shelters help make up for that. And I'm not being rude, but for the reasons I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I really don't think this gives Magus any versatility at all. If anything, it only shows that if you want to save Ethers/etc. on your third or fourth play through the game, then Magus becomes useful for the purposes of frugality, which at that stage I feel is kinda pointless [though at this point you've likely pumped many other people with tabs as well, so he might not even have the chance to outshine others with tier 2 magic either]. The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Could probably be true but I've never experienced this due to how many tech points they decided to shove in your face on the Mountain of Woe. Some people I know actually stay there and max out all their techs for everyone, kinda like the dinosaur forest from FF VI or the castle basement with the Statues in FF V [except in this case, you don't have to stay at the Mountain of Woe for very long]. But even if all this wasn't an issue, I still have the huge complain of Magus' lack of a single target physical tech or something. Pretty much everything has is AoE, which can cause a lot of nuisance problems that can make a battle really irritating like in the examples I gave a few posts back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I'm afraid I have to disagree. He gets sent flying from his time period in a place where he's separated from his beloved sister and the Gurus who actually cared for him for umpteen years because of his mother's foolish mistakes, and he doesn't have anything to say to her? I don't buy it at all, it just seems so unrealistic to me. It also seems really unrealistic that as a kid, he would find hatred towards Lavos [whom he knew very little about], as opposed to his mother which is someone that he's constantly exposed to and gets made aware of her drastic change when it occurs [he even mentions it to Schala]. Even if he didn't get along with her to begin with, it is his mother, whom he was probably around a lot. And given that he was warped out at a really young age, he hadn't had much time to grow attached or familiarity with anyone else besides close friends and family. Even if he hated her as a kid, she was still an important part of his life in that regard, aside from the obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I'm expecting to hear a "well as a kid, he was so smart that he reasoned that Lavos was the one truly responsible for it all, and that's where he should focus all of his anger on, and not his mom who was actually the victim and probably made his childhood miserable due to her corruption" type argument from someone, and I would roll my eyes and say "Wow a genius child prodigy that has the mindset and reasoning capabilities of an adult despite the fact that he's 7 or something, gee I have NEVER seen that one in JRPG's/anime before" [sarcasm].
Says who? If they chose to go that route, then sure you're correct. They have the option to give his character actual depth and true soul, even if it's a cold one. They decided not to go in this direction. All of the characters at various points of the game have interesting interaction and character depth develop as you progress through the game, except Magus. There are ways to give a character much depth to make them interesting, without contradicting their personality slate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Like I said, it would be nice for me to see a Magus-like character [and they're everywhere, at least one in almost every anime/video game], prejudge them based on their looks and initial attitude/dialogue, and actually be wrong about it. And yes some people somewhere will hate something no matter what, but I really feel that this direction would be for the better. I'm sick of seeing character archetype recipes being reused over and over. And small variations like "well this one's different, because he's actually evil!" or "well this one's different, because there's no time travel in this game" or "he wants revenge on his brother instead of a big monster" aren't really enough to make the distinction between all of them for me. That's sorta like some newcomer fic writer making one Mary Sue character after another, then giving the newest one a scar on his cheek and stating that he's bad at playing the Piano, then saying "See?? Unlike the others, this one has flaws!".
I think I've pretty much said everything I have to say about my Magus rant. My latest rage-rant is about Arumat from Star Ocean 4. I'm ready to pounce the second I see a topic about him made.
For the record, again I'm sorry if I seem too feisty or rude, I really don't mean to be. I'm just really opinionated by nature and I get carried away with voicing it a lot.
In the realm of power gaming, none compare to Robo. Pump your M Tabs and speed tabs into him and he's a god damn beast. Deals high Physical damage, and with a high magic from the tabs all his AoE spells become brutal.
And then you'll have Heal Beam near maxing your HP at the end of Play through 1.
And with the stat boosts from the Mother Brain level to speed and M. Def? He's the all purpose machine of certain death. Off topic though. :p
He's right about that one.
My point on the stat cap was to note that the balancing of Magus is completely different before and after lv80, his weakness being caused by his stats hitting the cap. Had they adjusted his multipliers to bring his Lv99 damage in line with what he was doing at lv80, then for the lower levels he would be overpowered. If the cap didn't exist then the stats would continue to increase in the same ratio.
Re: Zeal Conversation
What I got out of his statements at the beginning of the fight was:
- He doesn't consider Zeal to be a mother to him
- He has utter contempt for her, and sees her as trash
What more would you expect him to think about her? That would be what I would expect him to be thinking. Having him explain to her how she made him feel would be extremely out of character.
W/o tabs and hitting the magic cap Dark Matter and Flare do near identical damage, and Magus's Fire 2 will do ~140% of the damage of Lucca's.Quote:
The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game.
Also note that Flare has a very low multiplier compared to Luminaire, to keep the spell balanced against Lucca's high magic stat much like Magus & Dark Matter.
First disclaimer is that in line with my general displeasure with FFVIII I haven't played it through since it first came out like 10 years ago, so any finer plot details I may be a little off.Quote:
May I ask why? I'm only curious. Squall is a so-so character to me, so I don't really think much of him either way.
At the start of the game he has many thoughts along the line of 'good and evil are only a matter of perspective', and a generally very logical and balanced world view (imo). However, after Rinoa comes on to the scene all of a sudden he just seems to get so stupid. That scene where the two gardens are fighting and he abandons his post of commanding the whole show to go save a girl. When that happened I just wanted to quit the game because I didn't want to be an accessory to it. Combine that with the jumping out to space with no hope of return and a myriad of other crap I don't remember and you have a character I really don't like in the least. Now, having an impulsive love-struck character isn't exactly a new idea, and I usually don't like them for that matter. But what makes Squall so unbearable to me is that in the start of the game he was a character I liked and identified with, and in the end he was a character I disliked strongly.
Of course this isn't happening in a complete vacuum. It is a common character cliche that the tough, quiet logical one becomes the love struck idiot. It seems like at this point it's just a generally accepted fact. I am what would typically be classified as a 'tough, quiet logical one', and the prevailing attitude that I will just 'meet the right person' or 'grow out of it' is something I am sick and tired of. And when I see a character that is this attitude personified, well I tend to have a very violent reaction. (As you can see for me this is something that has a lot of baggage.)
I am a very logical person, so I know that if I treat people like I would like to it would end in a way that I would definitely not enjoy. When I see a character like Magus who can talk down to everyone, not bother acknowledge the existence of those he doesn't approve of, and general not give a dam about anyone else, I can at least enjoy living a little bit vicariously through them, which is one of the reasons I like such characters.
I'm getting SO4 soon, I'll be sure to make a thread propping him up as soon as I know who he is :)Quote:
My latest rage-rant is about Arumat from Star Ocean 4. I'm ready to pounce the second I see a topic about him made.
That's a really black & white notion of how the conversation could go. Seriously, there's so much more that could have been done with that and beyond. I find his rather dull and uninteresting dialogue to be the result of weak writing and/or laziness. However I'm told that Magus' character actually is shown to have more attachment to his mother in the Japanese version and that more interesting dialogue ensued, but of course we don't get to see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Yes, I know this. I don't mean to be rude but I've basically already stated this twice...Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Haha. This basically sounds like how I feel about Magus. Still, feelings of love and affection can open new doors and change some people. Granted it's an overused cliche, but it's not recycled anymore than Magus-like characters. Either way, both to me are poorly written characters taken from an archetype recipe book that some idiot in japan purchased for the equivalent of $10 USD.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Well he's just as expected, uninteresting and poorly-written as any other Magus-type character in these JRPG/anime genres, except he strangely has less development than Magus despite the fact that SO4 is a modern game [go figure on that one]. I imagine that a legion of fanboys are lining up to boast Arumat's "badassness" as we speak or have already done so just because he has [wait for it!] long, white hair, acts cold, talks down to others, and hey, even wields a scythe! Oh, and he's also riven by inner tragedy with a depressing past and vows to avenge it in some manner. Can't forget that one. That one will "surely" make him more of an interesting character. I guarantee that this character is the primary factor that made any money for Tri-Ace through SO4.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Hm, what were you looking for with "The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game."? I seem to have missed the intent of the query.Quote:
Yes, I know this. I don't mean to be rude but I've basically already stated this twice...
(Sorry, repeating numbers is a habit of mine, I'm used to having to bring up a number several times before it sinks in.)
Looks like the conversations are more similar than you were led to believe.Quote:
That's a really black & white notion of how the conversation could go. Seriously, there's so much more that could have been done with that and beyond. I find his rather dull and uninteresting dialogue to be the result of weak writing and/or laziness. However I'm told that Magus' character actually is shown to have more attachment to his mother in the Japanese version and that more interesting dialogue ensued, but of course we don't get to see that.
NA Dialog:
MAGUS: Idiots...
Nothing can live forever.
MAGUS: Zeal...
A pitiful woman, duped by Lavos!
MAGUS: I, myself, will bring an end
to all of this!
JP Dialog:
MAGUS: Foolish......
All existence is unable to escape from the fate
of perishing......
MAGUS: Zeal.
A sad woman enthralled by Lavos.
Pitiful at best......
MAGUS: I will bring it all to an end by my hand!
Just curious, what do you feel it would have been appropriate for him to add?
Very true, but characters like this kind of feel like a personal attack on me. Cliche's don't bother me as much, since I don't consume very much media. (I usually don't have much free time.)Quote:
Granted it's an overused cliche, but it's not recycled anymore than Magus-like characters.
I agree completely, and there are stories on the subject I enjoy very much. It is the concept that it is an expected outcome that vexes me. And most of the time the change seems very unbelievable.Quote:
Still, feelings of love and affection can open new doors and change some people.
Sounds like I'll love him :DQuote:
Well he's just as expected, uninteresting and poorly-written as any other Magus-type character in these JRPG/anime genres, except he strangely has less development than Magus despite the fact that SO4 is a modern game [go figure on that one]. I imagine that a legion of fanboys are lining up to boast Arumat's "badassness" as we speak or have already done so just because he has [wait for it!] long, white hair, acts cold, talks down to others, and hey, even wields a scythe! Oh, and he's also riven by inner tragedy with a depressing past and vows to avenge it in some manner. Can't forget that one. That one will "surely" make him more of an interesting character. I guarantee that this character is the primary factor that made any money for Tri-Ace through SO4.
The problem is, I am one of those guys that doesn't bother with tabs. I pretty much never use them so for me, Magus is actually a beast in my game cause he works naturally but I guess I'm just an exception to the rule. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
I actually start using Magus more often in later playthroughs cause he's actually stronger than most of the characters. Flare may pull second highest damage when you max Lucca's stats but her other skills are not as good as Magus, not to mention Magus has higher speed, evasion, and defense. Lucca gets the wonderful Prism Dress but Magus gets Moon Armor that can prevent status ailments and he has the game's best M.Def. Its not like Magus is really useless compared to the other characters.Quote:
Yeah, but only at later, like on your third or fourth New Game+ though once he's attained that level to have enough Magic for that. I don't really find much problem with using Ethers since as you said, you get astounding heaps of them. Plus there are save points conveniently placed relatively close to eachother, so Shelters help make up for that. And I'm not being rude, but for the reasons I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I really don't think this gives Magus any versatility at all. If anything, it only shows that if you want to save Ethers/etc. on your third or fourth play through the game, then Magus becomes useful for the purposes of frugality, which at that stage I feel is kinda pointless [though at this point you've likely pumped many other people with tabs as well, so he might not even have the chance to outshine others with tier 2 magic either]. The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game.
As for the Lv. 2 Spells, Magus us actually better than everyone else, even Crono when using the Lv.2 magic cause his damage mulitpliers for his versions of the spells are much higher 7.25 as opposed to everyone else's 5.25). Hell his only nerfed ability is actually Dark Matter. As for not having a physical tech, what for? He's obviously a mage character and his normal attack isn't anything to call home about, besides, neither Marle or Lucca have any physical based techs. Frog has pitiful offensive magic and Robo needs tabs in order to actually be a contender beyond healing and physical. Ayla doesn't have any real magic attacks either.
My point is, Magus may not be the most powerful character in the game but I would hardly say he's useless.
Personally, I don't feel his elemental based magic causes much hindrance at all and when you do find an enemy that is magic resistant, that's what characters like Robo and Ayla are for. There really is no "perfect party" set up for this game so you might as well build a balance one. :DQuote:
Could probably be true but I've never experienced this due to how many tech points they decided to shove in your face on the Mountain of Woe. Some people I know actually stay there and max out all their techs for everyone, kinda like the dinosaur forest from FF VI or the castle basement with the Statues in FF V [except in this case, you don't have to stay at the Mountain of Woe for very long]. But even if all this wasn't an issue, I still have the huge complain of Magus' lack of a single target physical tech or something. Pretty much everything has is AoE, which can cause a lot of nuisance problems that can make a battle really irritating like in the examples I gave a few posts back.
It depends on the person, you know I'm angry when I go completely silent so I can fully understand not wanting to give some mini-speech about "revenge" and "you ruined my life". From what you've told me about the types he represents, that is something I would expect them to do, Magus doesn't.Quote:
I'm afraid I have to disagree. He gets sent flying from his time period in a place where he's separated from his beloved sister and the Gurus who actually cared for him for umpteen years because of his mother's foolish mistakes, and he doesn't have anything to say to her? I don't buy it at all, it just seems so unrealistic to me. It also seems really unrealistic that as a kid, he would find hatred towards Lavos [whom he knew very little about], as opposed to his mother which is someone that he's constantly exposed to and gets made aware of her drastic change when it occurs [he even mentions it to Schala]. Even if he didn't get along with her to begin with, it is his mother, whom he was probably around a lot. And given that he was warped out at a really young age, he hadn't had much time to grow attached or familiarity with anyone else besides close friends and family. Even if he hated her as a kid, she was still an important part of his life in that regard, aside from the obvious.
In the SNES version he basically tells her she's an idiot and he's going to end this. In the DS version he still says she's an idiot but says she at least deserves mercy.
In truth, I don't see why Magus would care to say anything really personal, he was too young to know what she was really like and what he probably remembers wasn't very good. He spends his entire time in Zeal disguising himself so he can destroy Lavos, this tells me that Magus knows that his identity to the people of Zeal is a moot gesture. Zeal is obviously mad and corrupted by Lavos and I don't think some emotionally charged "Tidus speech" about her never being a mother to him is really going to change the situation or make him a sympathetic character for the player.
If you really want to get speculative on the matter, I feel Magus didn't tell her cause she's already going to be guilt ridden for the rest of her life once she is no longer controlled by Lavos. Whether he did not tell her his identity to ease her pain of knowing his fate or whether he did it so she would always wonder what happened to the son she lost in her madness really depends on whether you want to see Magus as sympathetic or an asshole.
I would go with the obvious excuse that his knowledge came from the people around him. I'm certain Schala explained a few things to him when he asked, and lord knows he may have overheard a few lines of dialogue from the Gurus. Not to mention when they are in the earthbound village and the party talks with Schala and Melchior to discover how to save Zeal by destroying Lavos.Quote:
I'm expecting to hear a "well as a kid, he was so smart that he reasoned that Lavos was the one truly responsible for it all, and that's where he should focus all of his anger on, and not his mom who was actually the victim and probably made his childhood miserable due to her corruption" type argument from someone, and I would roll my eyes and say "Wow a genius child prodigy that has the mindset and reasoning capabilities of an adult despite the fact that he's 7 or something, gee I have NEVER seen that one in JRPG's/anime before" [sarcasm].
As for his "anger" I would once again point out that Janus is hardly sympathetic or likable. He was an arrogant asshole who hated everyone around him to begin with and he grew up basically to become the same thing. He's got a sympathetic back story but I really doubt his personality would really be different had he not changed. I feel the amusing thing about Magus is that he's one of the "dark badass" characters that doesn't really play the sympathy card nearly as heavy, if anyone does its the fans. The game shows the player what happens but its not like Magus or any of the other cast keep bringing up why he's so angry and aloof and try to paint him as sympathetic. He's a dick and he plays it well. :magus:
Judging by his dialogue whenever you take him on any of the games side missions, he gives off the impression of being annoyed and wondering why the party is wasting their time. He does also play the cold asshole as he is quite indifferent in taking out his former henchmen and doesn't really seem to be bothered by Mother's human killing factory in the future. He's annoyed with Marle wasting their time in the present with her trying to save her father. I'd say the game paints a pretty clear picture of what kind of a person Magus is. The guy doesn't even say anything when he leaves your party.Quote:
Says who? If they chose to go that route, then sure you're correct. They have the option to give his character actual depth and true soul, even if it's a cold one. They decided not to go in this direction. All of the characters at various points of the game have interesting interaction and character depth develop as you progress through the game, except Magus. There are ways to give a character much depth to make them interesting, without contradicting their personality slate.
In the new ending for the DS version, (SPOILER)we get a chance to see a future Magus (for some minor amusement, bring Magus with you) who finally finds Schala fused with Lavos as the Time Devourer. He gets his ass handed to him again but so does your whole party at which point Schala regains a bit of her consciousness and tells Magus that his power can't save her. She then frees Magus by erasing his memories and dumping him off in some unknown time and place. His last words was he remembered he was looking for something very important but couldn't remember what it was. So he gets a bit more closure and depth with the new ending.
My only thought is what gaming character isn't based off some RPG/anime/literary cliche that has been written in the last decade let alone the medium? The amusing thing about writing is that people don't really seek out new and original, most find simple joy from predictability and regurgitation of old ideas; packaging them slightly different creates variety despite that packaging being paper thin. I am certain that if we listed all of your favorite characters we could easily attach most of them to common literary archetypes and videogame cliches such as Gau being the "wild boy" raised by animals. ;)Quote:
Like I said, it would be nice for me to see a Magus-like character [and they're everywhere, at least one in almost every anime/video game], prejudge them based on their looks and initial attitude/dialogue, and actually be wrong about it. And yes some people somewhere will hate something no matter what, but I really feel that this direction would be for the better. I'm sick of seeing character archetype recipes being reused over and over. And small variations like "well this one's different, because he's actually evil!" or "well this one's different, because there's no time travel in this game" or "he wants revenge on his brother instead of a big monster" aren't really enough to make the distinction between all of them for me. That's sorta like some newcomer fic writer making one Mary Sue character after another, then giving the newest one a scar on his cheek and stating that he's bad at playing the Piano, then saying "See?? Unlike the others, this one has flaws!".
You so need to talk to Darkwolf90, he LOVES him and has been wanting me to check him out. He pretty much loves this archetype in almost everything I've ever talked to him about he always gravitates to the horribly overpowered dark brooding badass. :DQuote:
I think I've pretty much said everything I have to say about my Magus rant. My latest rage-rant is about Arumat from Star Ocean 4. I'm ready to pounce the second I see a topic about him made.
No worries :)Quote:
For the record, again I'm sorry if I seem too feisty or rude, I really don't mean to be. I'm just really opinionated by nature and I get carried away with voicing it a lot.
Where'd you grab this from? I haven't seen the text myself but I have a friend who's half-Japanese and speaks both languages, and she said the conversation is slightly different than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I don't doubt that. When I think about it, this character archetype which seems to have almost no variation at all, strikes me as those stupid junior high school "cliques", where all the "goths" dress and act a same certain way, all the "punks" dress and act a same certain way, and then the "preps" and so on. It seems so immature to me, that I can't help but want to get a screwdriver and poke said person's eyeballs out. I felt no different about Lymle and Meracle from SO4 as well, which brings me to another cliche I'm sick of - stupid little girls and characters with ridiculous little "catchphrases" or whatever that they stick at the end of EVERY sentence. God, I really SALKDJFAS;LFJSADLFJ smurfING HATE JAPANESE WRITERS MOST OF THE TIME.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
*Cough* Pardon me.
Okay I really don't mean to sound rude, but I already said most of this basically. Did you fully read my posts... ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Hm. Are you sure you read my original post covering this? I kinda get the feeling you only briefly skimmed through what I was saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
What? Wasn't he around 7 or so when he was warped out of that time period? I remember much of what my mom was like back then, how could he not have? Even though it's a short lifespan, 7 years is still a significant amount of time, especially since he obviously got attached to her before she "changed" as he implies through his dialogue with Schala.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Yes of course don't remind me. This is another cliche I get sick of as well "as a child, he was still dark and brooding, and a loner! Nobody really liked him much." Ugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Hardly plays anything at all... which is part of my chief complaint here. He's a dry, boring character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Is this supposed to make his character interesting? I'm aware of this, which again is my chief complaint. He's an idiot. I probably would be more able to buy a character like this if I didn't see it all over the place. I think seeing the character recycled too much has made me truly bitter towards writers that fallback on this, because in all honesty, this is a VERY easy character to write and requires little effort in my opinion, and seeing it so many times has made it more and more uninteresting each time. Of course it's even worse now that I've seen about 40,000 more of this character, but even back when Chrono Trigger first came out, I still hated Magus for the same reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
What's this imply? I don't like Gau for his personality or characterization. I just think he's cute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Aside from that though, there are many ways to variate and be creative with character types [and yes you can throw the obvious fact out there that pretty much everything has been done several times by now]. Regardless, it's still annoying to see the Japanese stick to the same selection of 10~ish character types for all their anime/JRPG's. Naturally, there are many character types which get used a lot, however there are some which get used heaps with little variation. The latter bothers me more, obviously. Know what I mean now?
Eh, I can assure you that I've talked to thousands of Darkwolf90's. Like I said before, this type of character easily impresses western audiences, especially Americans. I don't see it as being any different from Sephiroth hype or FF VII hype or Avril Lavigne hype back when she was all the rage, or anything along those lines. God, hearing all the 14 year-olds blab about Avril Lavigne all day long was so irritating. I'm so glad that phase is over with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
My points are simply this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
Okay I really don't mean to sound rude, but I already said most of this basically. Did you fully read my posts... ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
1. His versatility is useful to some people, maybe not you but this is a counter against your feeling he lacks cohesion with other party members. He may not have the skills you desire to build your ideal team but for me he works perfectly for what I need to do. :p
2. Magus is hardly useless, it really just depends on how you play the game. Most of the cast has serious faults so I find it difficult to agree with you that somehow Magus' weakness are somehow more detrimental than the other characters flaws. If you want true worthlessness, we only need to look at Marle where every one of her strengths is either better used by other party members or there is equipment and items that can do the same effect. Package this all together with one of the weakest characters and you truly have the games least useful character. Her only strength comes from Dual Techs and Triple Techs and most of those become obsolete in later playthroughs especially since parties using characters with big spells (like Magus) are better than wasting two characters turns to do less damage than having a better team setup using individual skills. Even then, I'm certain someone can come up with argument to prove that Marle is actually one of the best party members and it will probably come down to game play style. ;)
For the Black Omen scenario, I generally use Magus to ease my way through most of the hordes of enemies in the dungeon. When I get to Zeal, I either take the counter (cause frankly, they are not that terrible) or use him as a healer so my normal healer (Usually Robo or Frog) can use their awesome physical skills to take her down. So I would disagree that he's useless and I feel your criteria for why he is useless is based more on your play style than actually being a viable complaint.
As for the translation of the scene at the Black Omen, here is the DS version:
In regard to Magus being unoriginal, you have to remember that for some, this was their first introduction to him. He's a cliche now but back then he felt pretty fresh. I personally call the "Dark Badass Character" the Magus Archetype as I feel he was the original that really set the groundwork that everyone else copied. In Japanese culture he's not terribly original but in the U.S. in the mid 90's those shows were not exactly being played on Saturday morning so its not like many people are aware that he wasn't original at the time. :PQuote:
Queen: You maggots… I am the Queen who shall rule for all eternity at Lavos's
side. You will not stand in my way!
Magus: Fool. No thing, no life, can last forever.
Magus: You are deceived. A pitiful plight… One deserving of mercy, at least.
[He swings his cape back]
Magus: I will put an end to all of this!
Queen: Accursed prophet! Do not think I have forgotten your transgression at
the Ocean Palace. You shall pay for it now with your life!
Nostalgia keeps him fresh for some and irritating for others.
http://chronofan.com/Black/Publicati...ter%2025-3.htmQuote:
Where'd you grab this from?
You probably shouldn't let me string you along like this. :DQuote:
... ... *Cough* Pardon me.
To me it seems that a lot is left to the imagination. It is part of his character that he really doesn't lower himself to interact with the party on many occasions. Having him talk more would really make him a different character, you kind of have to imagine what he is thinking. You seem to be implying that you want everything laid out for you.Quote:
Hardly plays anything at all... which is part of my chief complaint here. He's a dry, boring character.
Hm, I have to say to this that most players use tabs and will find more use out of other characters than Magus, because everything that he does can be easily matched/outdone by a few other characters, not to mention that he has no healing techniques and Magic Barrier is kinda useless. He has no physical techs when single-target is preferred to prevent unnecessary counter-attacks, which altogether is why I'm saying he lacks versatility and cohesion. Even without tabs, this doesn't really seem to change much. In my first post I stated that Magus' tier 2 magic is better than everyone else's [before you guys started pointing it out to me], which at that stage is kinda useless because you no longer gain anything out of being frugal and better options are available to you at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Only because for pretty much any situation I can think of, there's a character that could have taken his slot which would suit the battle far more without the consequences, unless of course you're someone that likes to play things in a way that makes them a bit more challenging. And that isn't me being sarcastic or anything, because I do that sometimes as well [I'm playing the version of FF V with Roogle right now, which apparently is harder than the normal one].Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Yes, even before VeloZer0 posted this and you after, I've already seen this a hundred times. Just because it's the DS translation, doesn't necessarily mean it's close to the original translation. Even with modern JRPG's, a lot of dialogue and sometimes entire personalities get changed quite a bit [look how much Kefka changed, though that's an older example]. I might be wrong but Raine [the friend I was referring to] speaks and reads Japanese very well and is a hardcore gamer, so I'm inclined to take her word on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
We're going in circles though and repeating a ton of what's already been said like 2-4 times. You guys are stating mechanics and cases to me which are correct, but are also that which I'm already aware of and stated previously. I've also stated why I think most other characters are more useful. And yes, we all know Marle is the most useless junk in the game, though she still has more cohesion in my opinion. And hey, she's not entirely hopeless. She can still solo Lavos! I can't seem to get her to solo Spekkio in his pink Nu form though. Well not yet anyways. She just needs more leveling is all.
Says who? Saying a lot doesn't necessarily mean that said person is laying out everything they're thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Pfft don't flatter yourself. I string myself on. I always get like this when I rant about archetypes like this. If it isn't me ranting to you, then it's someone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
http://chronofan.com/Black/Publicati...ter%2025-3.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
A couple things in here seem a little off, but I want to copy/paste it to her and see what she says before I say anything.
I never saw the point in using tabs in any game that has them except maybe FFIV but they only increase HP and MP since you can't actually max those out naturally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
I also do enjoy being frugal, VeloZer0 would understand cause both of us are the types that try to conserve items and other resources. Mostly cause that's how it was done in the old days and sadly, old habits die hard (and then become horribly useful again with SMT). I also have always had issues with game mechanics that basically tell the player to spam the best they have. I never believed in the FFVI approach of winning by teaching everyone Ultima and then spam cause I see little fun in doing that.
My other point you seem to miss is that Magus is not exactly built for every occasion but neither is someone like... oh Ayla, who is Magus' opposite in the game. All but two of her skills are single target, the two that are not have restrictions on them that for me frankly make them not so useful and she pretty much doesn't have magic based attacks which really makes her useless in places where you need it to kill enemies that resist physical (Ocean Palace/Black Omen) hell, I find Magus is more useful in the Rainbow Shell quest cause his high power Lightening Magic can take down groups of enemies whereas Ayla has to wait for them to be stunned by thunder before her attacks will even work. Throw in the fact that her normal physical attacks eventually begin to outshine all of her single techs and you get a character who loses most of their diversity to become the game's token Berserker, which I generally don't care for cause their really is no skill involved using them.
I usually prefer AoE by end game so Ayla really doesn't do it for me. She's great in Boss battles but is seriously lacking in dungeon crawls whereas I feel Magus is quite the opposite by being decent in boss battles but incredibly useful in long dungeon crawls. This is really my point here, characters are built for certain tasks and certain play styles definetly gravitate towards certain characters more.
This just goes back to my point that not everyone is good at everything (except maybe Robo and Crono) so yes, Magus is lacking in that fight so don't bring him along, he's far more useful in other capacities and other roles. The one I even mentioned, though he's not great against the Lavos spawn or Zeal, he's very useful for his high magic damage and speed to take out most of the creatures in the Black Omen so he makes the dungeon crawl infinitely more bearable (at least for me).Quote:
Only because for pretty much any situation I can think of, there's a character that could have taken his slot which would suit the battle far more without the consequences, unless of course you're someone that likes to play things in a way that makes them a bit more challenging. And that isn't me being sarcastic or anything, because I do that sometimes as well [I'm playing the version of FF V with Roogle right now, which apparently is harder than the normal one].
I only brought it up cause it actually sound like what your friend was saying about Magus. Instead of his usual "Die you idiot" he actually says something a bit more sympathetic. As a 16-bit RPG, I find it hard to believe that Magus had some long-ass speech that got snipped down to three sentences, especially since the DS version doesn't have the same dialogue restrictions that the old cartridges did. While I am certain your friend is not wrong about Magus giving a personal speech to Zeal, I have a feeling its not far from the DS version. ;)Quote:
Yes, even before VeloZer0 posted this and you after, I've already seen this a hundred times. Just because it's the DS translation, doesn't necessarily mean it's close to the original translation. Even with modern JRPG's, a lot of dialogue and sometimes entire personalities get changed quite a bit [look how much Kefka changed, though that's an older example]. I might be wrong but Raine [the friend I was referring to] speaks and reads Japanese very well and is a hardcore gamer, so I'm inclined to take her word on it.
Kefka's dialogue in the GBA version changes his personalty but its mostly because there is enough space to translate more of his unique speech patterns as opposed to actually giving him more dialogue. In reality, the SNES version still gets across what he was meaning, the GBA just does it with a few more words that happen to draw out more of his personality that wasn't completely lost in translation. My point is, even if they somehow made Magus' dialogue verbatim to the Japanese, I don't think you would see a satisfactory change in his personality and this has been my point about if they gave him extra dialogue. Frankly, its not like the other characters have more character depth than Magus, the game is still limited by its technology and thus all the other characters still neatly fall into stereotypes and cliches with little deviation.
Some of your points are valid, but my preferences for most any fight have always directed me to use other characters. Ironically, I actually end up using Magus more often than you guys might think, but only because I get irritated with the lack of males in the cast. And I don't really count Frog/Glenn, either. I really wish there was a way to make him human in-game. Honestly, it would've been nice if Magus had undone his magic if he joins your party. Would've been an interesting perk, but then I'm not sure how human Glenn would still use Slurp Cut and Frog Squash.
As for being frugal, I used to be like that when I first played RPG's but now I've noticed that I can spam consumables a lot and I still end up with a lot of excess. For whatever reason, they always seem to heap up in RPG games.
No, not a long speech, but he said things that were slightly different. I can't remember exactly because we had this discussion a long time ago, but she said that Magus said something along the lines of Zeal being "the mom from hell" or something, and she gets a bit defensive about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Well I can't speak too much for Kefka because I don't know what he's like in the Japanese version, but I was told by some members from EoFF that he's actually a bit more effeminate in the Japanese version. Not in a girly-queer way, but more like a Jack Sparrow kinda way, I think is what someone said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I'm not really looking for a complete change in his personality. Like I said, it would've been nice if he had a little bit more depth added [and yes, you can add depth to someone without contradicting their personality slate, so it's ridiculous to assume that depth would automatically make him "sissy"]. And I have to say that the other characters do get noticeably more depth, namely Frog, Marle, and Lucca, so I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that. Not all cliches and stereotypes bother me in truth, but ones that get overly used way too often do, and it's even worse when overly used ones get lots of fanboy hype that just drives me nuts. :|Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I agree. I think I would have really liked to use Frog if he had changed back into Glenn when Magus joins the party. You would think that mortal rivals in the same group of adventurers would have more tension than Frog and Magus do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
I said earlier that I liked using humans with magic as a general rule, so Ayla, Frog, and Robo are immediately out of the picture. That leaves Crono, Lucca, Marle, and Magus, so not much to work with there —
In the fan sequel, Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes, they originally wanted to make Frog in his human form a playable character, but it proved to be more than just a simple sprite replacement issue due to things like Slurp Cut and Frog Squash.
That is the one downside with only having three characters present for all the cut scenes. All the dialog has to stand independent of the other two party members. Factor in the fact the Magus is optional and I can see the nightmare the developers were faced with trying to make Magus fit into the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
(Maybe nightmare is a bit strong, but I would certainly say there would be a much greater deal of difficulty having him sustain conversations with party members.)
Yes, I dislike having fully customizable parties especially during story heavy sequences because it tends to devalue the dialogue. It is too difficult for developers to create long, detailed conversations between two optional party members without taking the other character combinations into account.
I don't know much about how much space Chrono Trigger took, but it seems pretty obvious that a lot is crammed into the game. I'm sure the lack of dialogue might be due to limitation issues. My solution to it would have been to dump a few useless NPC's/dialogue in the game to make room for such dialogue. For example, you don't need 15~20 NPC's telling you that "there are evil spirits in the Northern Ruins".Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
On the whole I think I like it better, as it allows me never to have to listen to the characters I don't want to hear from, but that doesn't blind me to it's flaws.
Conversations are important, but I think enough repertoire can be established through having required party members at times and scenes involving the entire party. The main problem with Magus is he arrives just as the game becomes completely non linear.
EDIT: Man, seems we are all watching this thread like hawks.
I would say that it was technically possible for the developers to create special conversations when certain party combinations were used, but that it wasn't a priority — developers are always rushing to try and have a game released on schedule, and customized dialogue for special party combinations may have been deemed to gratuitous at the time. In Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes, I am pretty sure that the characters converse often with each other, but this is due to the fact that you are forced to use specific parties for a large portion of the game similar to the beginning parts of the original Chrono Trigger.
I would really enjoy playing this game if I could. It sounds really intriguing. The more characters become like actual people that happen to be living in that realm, [without contradicting their canon personalities] the more I come to like them a lot. I could even end up liking Magus a little bit at that rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
The interquel, Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes, takes a different approach to introducing the characters in the game. Shortly after the introduction of the game with Crono, Lucca, and Marle, you are forced to play through a part of the game as only Magus, giving a better insight into his personality rather than what we see of him after he joins the party through scripted lines. Keep in mind that it is a fan project.
I love the music they use in Crimson Echoes.