If you pick Magus, you are a loser

[RedPouch]

I usually give all my magic tabs to whichever healer I'm going to use, actually. In my experience, of the people I know who play, without heavy New Game+ farming it would be highly unusually for him to get 17 unless that is the player's main focus.

That still isn't a lot though. I'm only on my second play-through of the game...

And in further thought after typing the last paragraph, it's not Magus's low Dark Matter multiplier that hurts him, it's the fact that stats cap out at 99.

Yeah but this isn't really worth mentioning since it's the same for everyone else as well. Whatever the stat cap is, everyone will have the chance to hit it, and you'll be in the same situation again. Basically, it sounds like you're saying that they have to make the stat cap higher for Magus alone [but keeping the limitation on everyone else] so he can shine.

I actualy identified with him somewhat strongly in the beginning of the game, and in the end he as turned into someone I truly despise.

May I ask why? I'm only curious. Squall is a so-so character to me, so I don't really think much of him either way.

[VeloZer0]

Hm, looks like I was underestimating the number of magic tabs in a play through. There are 18 Tabs in a game (w/o Spekkio), so you have to give just under half of your tabs to Crono to have Luminaire be more powerful than Dark Matter in two playthroughs. It is still significant. Having a character need half of your magic tabs to pull even in damage would certianly indicate one is more powerful than the other.

Yeah but this isn't really worth mentioning since it's the same for everyone else as well. Whatever the stat cap is, everyone will have the chance to hit it, and you'll be in the same situation again. Basically, it sounds like you're saying that they have to make the stat cap higher for Magus alone [but keeping the limitation on everyone else] so he can shine.

I say this because effectively Dark matter stops getting stronger at Lv80, whereas Luminaire continues to grow until 99. (And is increased by tabs.) Had the limit been 200 Dark Matter would still be ~15% stronger at Lv99, instead of breaking even with Luminaire. Tabs still would have made Luminaire eventually over power Dark Matter, but the spells would remain approximately the same power in relation to each other. (Raising the stat cap helps people who max out naturally, so it also affects characters like Lucca.)

May I ask why? I'm only curious. Squall is a so-so character to me, so I don't really think much of him either way.

When I get back from work

[RedPouch]

Hm, looks like I was underestimating the number of magic tabs in a play through. There are 18 Tabs in a game (w/o Spekkio), so you have to give just under half of your tabs to Crono to have Luminaire be more powerful than Dark Matter in two playthroughs. It is still significant. Having a character need half of your magic tabs to pull even in damage would certianly indicate one is more powerful than the other.

I'm still unsure, because although I gave Crono some Magic Tabs, I didn't give him all of them yet the output is incredible. And yes, I say it's poor balancing. On a sidenote, I don't really find any use for putting them into healers since from my experience they're able to keep up with the damage naturally [Robo is the best for this in my opinion].

I say this because effectively Dark matter stops getting stronger at Lv80, whereas Luminaire continues to grow until 99. (And is increased by tabs.) Had the limit been 200 Dark Matter would still be ~15% stronger at Lv99, instead of breaking even with Luminaire. Tabs still would have made Luminaire eventually over power Dark Matter, but the spells would remain approximately the same power in relation to each other. (Raising the stat cap helps people who max out naturally, so it also affects characters like Lucca.)

While this may be true, I don't see much use in pointing out "what if the stat cap was higher?" since it's a "what if". To me, it almost seems the same as saying "what if [blank]'s damage multiplier was 40.5 instead? What then, huh?", since both are scenarios that are outside of the designer's intentions.

When I get back from work

I look forward to it!

[Wolf Kanno]

If the game didn't give you Tabs to alter stats though, Magus would be one of the strongest characters naturally since Crono's magic only reaches 46 at max level, they would be on equal terms, though Lucca's standing in the game would go up.

In regards to the significance of Magus' super versions of everyone's spells. It is important cause it allows him to be versatile and efficient. It wouldn't mean much if you are simply Flare/Luminaire/Dark Matter spamming but if you actually care not to blow through ethers (despite them being numerous) Magus allows you to blast your way through dungeons with little effort and little MP cost. Until you get some of the final spells in the game Dark Mist is probably one of the nastiest spells in the game.

In terms of storytelling and character development, I kinda wonder what the point is. We see everything in regards to Magus' past so its not like he would give us any real insight to who he was. He was a bratty little kid to begin with so its not like his personality is really a stretch from his childhood. In regards to his speech with Zeal, once again we have to remember that Janus never got along with his mother and since he was taken at a young age any attempts to foster feelings of love or hate for her are gone. His dialect of disgust is fitting cause his last real contact with her was as the Prophet where he got to see first hand her greed and how much of a tool she is. In that state of mind, would it matter if he made some great proclamation? It would be like talking to a wall.

For the rest of his dialogue, if they had written more it would most like be nothing but snarky comments and "cool" boasting so I highly doubt it would somehow flesh him out. It would only give more fodder for the haters to complain about and more annoying lines for the fanboys to misquote.

[RedPouch]

If the game didn't give you Tabs to alter stats though, Magus would be one of the strongest characters naturally since Crono's magic only reaches 46 at max level, they would be on equal terms, though Lucca's standing in the game would go up.

Yeah I understand, and that's basically what VeloZer0 said, but again, that's like saying "well if the game was coded so that Luminaire's multiplier was merely slightly higher, then Magus wouldn't be able to catch up to it no matter what". The point is that the game does make a lot of Tabs available.

In regards to the significance of Magus' super versions of everyone's spells. It is important cause it allows him to be versatile and efficient. It wouldn't mean much if you are simply Flare/Luminaire/Dark Matter spamming but if you actually care not to blow through ethers (despite them being numerous) Magus allows you to blast your way through dungeons with little effort and little MP cost.

Yeah, but only at later, like on your third or fourth New Game+ though once he's attained that level to have enough Magic for that. I don't really find much problem with using Ethers since as you said, you get astounding heaps of them. Plus there are save points conveniently placed relatively close to eachother, so Shelters help make up for that. And I'm not being rude, but for the reasons I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I really don't think this gives Magus any versatility at all. If anything, it only shows that if you want to save Ethers/etc. on your third or fourth play through the game, then Magus becomes useful for the purposes of frugality, which at that stage I feel is kinda pointless [though at this point you've likely pumped many other people with tabs as well, so he might not even have the chance to outshine others with tier 2 magic either]. The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game.

Until you get some of the final spells in the game Dark Mist is probably one of the nastiest spells in the game.

Could probably be true but I've never experienced this due to how many tech points they decided to shove in your face on the Mountain of Woe. Some people I know actually stay there and max out all their techs for everyone, kinda like the dinosaur forest from FF VI or the castle basement with the Statues in FF V [except in this case, you don't have to stay at the Mountain of Woe for very long]. But even if all this wasn't an issue, I still have the huge complain of Magus' lack of a single target physical tech or something. Pretty much everything has is AoE, which can cause a lot of nuisance problems that can make a battle really irritating like in the examples I gave a few posts back.

In terms of storytelling and character development, I kinda wonder what the point is. We see everything in regards to Magus' past so its not like he would give us any real insight to who he was. He was a bratty little kid to begin with so its not like his personality is really a stretch from his childhood. In regards to his speech with Zeal, once again we have to remember that Janus never got along with his mother and since he was taken at a young age any attempts to foster feelings of love or hate for her are gone. His dialect of disgust is fitting cause his last real contact with her was as the Prophet where he got to see first hand her greed and how much of a tool she is. In that state of mind, would it matter if he made some great proclamation? It would be like talking to a wall.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. He gets sent flying from his time period in a place where he's separated from his beloved sister and the Gurus who actually cared for him for umpteen years because of his mother's foolish mistakes, and he doesn't have anything to say to her? I don't buy it at all, it just seems so unrealistic to me. It also seems really unrealistic that as a kid, he would find hatred towards Lavos [whom he knew very little about], as opposed to his mother which is someone that he's constantly exposed to and gets made aware of her drastic change when it occurs [he even mentions it to Schala]. Even if he didn't get along with her to begin with, it is his mother, whom he was probably around a lot. And given that he was warped out at a really young age, he hadn't had much time to grow attached or familiarity with anyone else besides close friends and family. Even if he hated her as a kid, she was still an important part of his life in that regard, aside from the obvious.

I'm expecting to hear a "well as a kid, he was so smart that he reasoned that Lavos was the one truly responsible for it all, and that's where he should focus all of his anger on, and not his mom who was actually the victim and probably made his childhood miserable due to her corruption" type argument from someone, and I would roll my eyes and say "Wow a genius child prodigy that has the mindset and reasoning capabilities of an adult despite the fact that he's 7 or something, gee I have NEVER seen that one in JRPG's/anime before" [sarcasm].

For the rest of his dialogue, if they had written more it would most like be nothing but snarky comments and "cool" boasting

Says who? If they chose to go that route, then sure you're correct. They have the option to give his character actual depth and true soul, even if it's a cold one. They decided not to go in this direction. All of the characters at various points of the game have interesting interaction and character depth develop as you progress through the game, except Magus. There are ways to give a character much depth to make them interesting, without contradicting their personality slate.

Like I said, it would be nice for me to see a Magus-like character [and they're everywhere, at least one in almost every anime/video game], prejudge them based on their looks and initial attitude/dialogue, and actually be wrong about it. And yes some people somewhere will hate something no matter what, but I really feel that this direction would be for the better. I'm sick of seeing character archetype recipes being reused over and over. And small variations like "well this one's different, because he's actually evil!" or "well this one's different, because there's no time travel in this game" or "he wants revenge on his brother instead of a big monster" aren't really enough to make the distinction between all of them for me. That's sorta like some newcomer fic writer making one Mary Sue character after another, then giving the newest one a scar on his cheek and stating that he's bad at playing the Piano, then saying "See?? Unlike the others, this one has flaws!".

I think I've pretty much said everything I have to say about my Magus rant. My latest rage-rant is about Arumat from Star Ocean 4. I'm ready to pounce the second I see a topic about him made.

For the record, again I'm sorry if I seem too feisty or rude, I really don't mean to be. I'm just really opinionated by nature and I get carried away with voicing it a lot.

[NeoCracker]

In the realm of power gaming, none compare to Robo. Pump your M Tabs and speed tabs into him and he's a god damn beast. Deals high Physical damage, and with a high magic from the tabs all his AoE spells become brutal.

And then you'll have Heal Beam near maxing your HP at the end of Play through 1.

And with the stat boosts from the Mother Brain level to speed and M. Def? He's the all purpose machine of certain death. Off topic though.

[RedPouch]

He's right about that one.

[VeloZer0]

My point on the stat cap was to note that the balancing of Magus is completely different before and after lv80, his weakness being caused by his stats hitting the cap. Had they adjusted his multipliers to bring his Lv99 damage in line with what he was doing at lv80, then for the lower levels he would be overpowered. If the cap didn't exist then the stats would continue to increase in the same ratio.

Re: Zeal Conversation
What I got out of his statements at the beginning of the fight was:
- He doesn't consider Zeal to be a mother to him
- He has utter contempt for her, and sees her as trash
What more would you expect him to think about her? That would be what I would expect him to be thinking. Having him explain to her how she made him feel would be extremely out of character.

The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game.

W/o tabs and hitting the magic cap Dark Matter and Flare do near identical damage, and Magus's Fire 2 will do ~140% of the damage of Lucca's.
Also note that Flare has a very low multiplier compared to Luminaire, to keep the spell balanced against Lucca's high magic stat much like Magus & Dark Matter.

May I ask why? I'm only curious. Squall is a so-so character to me, so I don't really think much of him either way.

First disclaimer is that in line with my general displeasure with FFVIII I haven't played it through since it first came out like 10 years ago, so any finer plot details I may be a little off.
At the start of the game he has many thoughts along the line of 'good and evil are only a matter of perspective', and a generally very logical and balanced world view (imo). However, after Rinoa comes on to the scene all of a sudden he just seems to get so stupid. That scene where the two gardens are fighting and he abandons his post of commanding the whole show to go save a girl. When that happened I just wanted to quit the game because I didn't want to be an accessory to it. Combine that with the jumping out to space with no hope of return and a myriad of other crap I don't remember and you have a character I really don't like in the least. Now, having an impulsive love-struck character isn't exactly a new idea, and I usually don't like them for that matter. But what makes Squall so unbearable to me is that in the start of the game he was a character I liked and identified with, and in the end he was a character I disliked strongly.
Of course this isn't happening in a complete vacuum. It is a common character cliche that the tough, quiet logical one becomes the love struck idiot. It seems like at this point it's just a generally accepted fact. I am what would typically be classified as a 'tough, quiet logical one', and the prevailing attitude that I will just 'meet the right person' or 'grow out of it' is something I am sick and tired of. And when I see a character that is this attitude personified, well I tend to have a very violent reaction. (As you can see for me this is something that has a lot of baggage.)

I am a very logical person, so I know that if I treat people like I would like to it would end in a way that I would definitely not enjoy. When I see a character like Magus who can talk down to everyone, not bother acknowledge the existence of those he doesn't approve of, and general not give a dam about anyone else, I can at least enjoy living a little bit vicariously through them, which is one of the reasons I like such characters.

My latest rage-rant is about Arumat from Star Ocean 4. I'm ready to pounce the second I see a topic about him made.

I'm getting SO4 soon, I'll be sure to make a thread propping him up as soon as I know who he is

[RedPouch]

Re: Zeal Conversation
What I got out of his statements at the beginning of the fight was:
- He doesn't consider Zeal to be a mother to him
- He has utter contempt for her, and sees her as trash
What more would you expect him to think about her? That would be what I would expect him to be thinking. Having him explain to her how she made him feel would be extremely out of character.

That's a really black & white notion of how the conversation could go. Seriously, there's so much more that could have been done with that and beyond. I find his rather dull and uninteresting dialogue to be the result of weak writing and/or laziness. However I'm told that Magus' character actually is shown to have more attachment to his mother in the Japanese version and that more interesting dialogue ensued, but of course we don't get to see that.

W/o tabs and hitting the magic cap Dark Matter and Flare do near identical damage, and Magus's Fire 2 will do ~140% of the damage of Lucca's.
Also note that Flare has a very low multiplier compared to Luminaire, to keep the spell balanced against Lucca's high magic stat much like Magus & Dark Matter.

Yes, I know this. I don't mean to be rude but I've basically already stated this twice...

First disclaimer is that in line with my general displeasure with FFVIII I haven't played it through since it first came out like 10 years ago, so any finer plot details I may be a little off.
At the start of the game he has many thoughts along the line of 'good and evil are only a matter of perspective', and a generally very logical and balanced world view (imo). However, after Rinoa comes on to the scene all of a sudden he just seems to get so stupid. That scene where the two gardens are fighting and he abandons his post of commanding the whole show to go save a girl. When that happened I just wanted to quit the game because I didn't want to be an accessory to it. Combine that with the jumping out to space with no hope of return and a myriad of other crap I don't remember and you have a character I really don't like in the least. Now, having an impulsive love-struck character isn't exactly a new idea, and I usually don't like them for that matter. But what makes Squall so unbearable to me is that in the start of the game he was a character I liked and identified with, and in the end he was a character I disliked strongly.
Of course this isn't happening in a complete vacuum. It is a common character cliche that the tough, quiet logical one becomes the love struck idiot. It seems like at this point it's just a generally accepted fact. I am what would typically be classified as a 'tough, quiet logical one', and the prevailing attitude that I will just 'meet the right person' or 'grow out of it' is something I am sick and tired of. And when I see a character that is this attitude personified, well I tend to have a very violent reaction. (As you can see for me this is something that has a lot of baggage.)

Haha. This basically sounds like how I feel about Magus. Still, feelings of love and affection can open new doors and change some people. Granted it's an overused cliche, but it's not recycled anymore than Magus-like characters. Either way, both to me are poorly written characters taken from an archetype recipe book that some idiot in japan purchased for the equivalent of $10 USD.

I'm getting SO4 soon, I'll be sure to make a thread propping him up as soon as I know who he is

Well he's just as expected, uninteresting and poorly-written as any other Magus-type character in these JRPG/anime genres, except he strangely has less development than Magus despite the fact that SO4 is a modern game [go figure on that one]. I imagine that a legion of fanboys are lining up to boast Arumat's "badassness" as we speak or have already done so just because he has [wait for it!] long, white hair, acts cold, talks down to others, and hey, even wields a scythe! Oh, and he's also riven by inner tragedy with a depressing past and vows to avenge it in some manner. Can't forget that one. That one will "surely" make him more of an interesting character. I guarantee that this character is the primary factor that made any money for Tri-Ace through SO4.

[VeloZer0]

Yes, I know this. I don't mean to be rude but I've basically already stated this twice...

Hm, what were you looking for with "The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game."? I seem to have missed the intent of the query.
(Sorry, repeating numbers is a habit of mine, I'm used to having to bring up a number several times before it sinks in.)

That's a really black & white notion of how the conversation could go. Seriously, there's so much more that could have been done with that and beyond. I find his rather dull and uninteresting dialogue to be the result of weak writing and/or laziness. However I'm told that Magus' character actually is shown to have more attachment to his mother in the Japanese version and that more interesting dialogue ensued, but of course we don't get to see that.

Looks like the conversations are more similar than you were led to believe.
NA Dialog:
MAGUS: Idiots...
Nothing can live forever.
MAGUS: Zeal...
A pitiful woman, duped by Lavos!
MAGUS: I, myself, will bring an end
to all of this!

JP Dialog:
MAGUS: Foolish......
All existence is unable to escape from the fate
of perishing......
MAGUS: Zeal.
A sad woman enthralled by Lavos.
Pitiful at best......
MAGUS: I will bring it all to an end by my hand!

Just curious, what do you feel it would have been appropriate for him to add?

Granted it's an overused cliche, but it's not recycled anymore than Magus-like characters.

Very true, but characters like this kind of feel like a personal attack on me. Cliche's don't bother me as much, since I don't consume very much media. (I usually don't have much free time.)

Still, feelings of love and affection can open new doors and change some people.

I agree completely, and there are stories on the subject I enjoy very much. It is the concept that it is an expected outcome that vexes me. And most of the time the change seems very unbelievable.

Well he's just as expected, uninteresting and poorly-written as any other Magus-type character in these JRPG/anime genres, except he strangely has less development than Magus despite the fact that SO4 is a modern game [go figure on that one]. I imagine that a legion of fanboys are lining up to boast Arumat's "badassness" as we speak or have already done so just because he has [wait for it!] long, white hair, acts cold, talks down to others, and hey, even wields a scythe! Oh, and he's also riven by inner tragedy with a depressing past and vows to avenge it in some manner. Can't forget that one. That one will "surely" make him more of an interesting character. I guarantee that this character is the primary factor that made any money for Tri-Ace through SO4.

Sounds like I'll love him

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah I understand, and that's basically what VeloZer0 said, but again, that's like saying "well if the game was coded so that Luminaire's multiplier was merely slightly higher, then Magus wouldn't be able to catch up to it no matter what". The point is that the game does make a lot of Tabs available.

The problem is, I am one of those guys that doesn't bother with tabs. I pretty much never use them so for me, Magus is actually a beast in my game cause he works naturally but I guess I'm just an exception to the rule.

Yeah, but only at later, like on your third or fourth New Game+ though once he's attained that level to have enough Magic for that. I don't really find much problem with using Ethers since as you said, you get astounding heaps of them. Plus there are save points conveniently placed relatively close to eachother, so Shelters help make up for that. And I'm not being rude, but for the reasons I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I really don't think this gives Magus any versatility at all. If anything, it only shows that if you want to save Ethers/etc. on your third or fourth play through the game, then Magus becomes useful for the purposes of frugality, which at that stage I feel is kinda pointless [though at this point you've likely pumped many other people with tabs as well, so he might not even have the chance to outshine others with tier 2 magic either]. The only question I really have is if he would be much higher than Lucca or not, because while his magic stat is higher than hers, she still has a pretty beast Magic development to begin with. Hers is the second highest in the game.

I actually start using Magus more often in later playthroughs cause he's actually stronger than most of the characters. Flare may pull second highest damage when you max Lucca's stats but her other skills are not as good as Magus, not to mention Magus has higher speed, evasion, and defense. Lucca gets the wonderful Prism Dress but Magus gets Moon Armor that can prevent status ailments and he has the game's best M.Def. Its not like Magus is really useless compared to the other characters.

As for the Lv. 2 Spells, Magus us actually better than everyone else, even Crono when using the Lv.2 magic cause his damage mulitpliers for his versions of the spells are much higher 7.25 as opposed to everyone else's 5.25). Hell his only nerfed ability is actually Dark Matter. As for not having a physical tech, what for? He's obviously a mage character and his normal attack isn't anything to call home about, besides, neither Marle or Lucca have any physical based techs. Frog has pitiful offensive magic and Robo needs tabs in order to actually be a contender beyond healing and physical. Ayla doesn't have any real magic attacks either.

My point is, Magus may not be the most powerful character in the game but I would hardly say he's useless.

Could probably be true but I've never experienced this due to how many tech points they decided to shove in your face on the Mountain of Woe. Some people I know actually stay there and max out all their techs for everyone, kinda like the dinosaur forest from FF VI or the castle basement with the Statues in FF V [except in this case, you don't have to stay at the Mountain of Woe for very long]. But even if all this wasn't an issue, I still have the huge complain of Magus' lack of a single target physical tech or something. Pretty much everything has is AoE, which can cause a lot of nuisance problems that can make a battle really irritating like in the examples I gave a few posts back.

Personally, I don't feel his elemental based magic causes much hindrance at all and when you do find an enemy that is magic resistant, that's what characters like Robo and Ayla are for. There really is no "perfect party" set up for this game so you might as well build a balance one.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. He gets sent flying from his time period in a place where he's separated from his beloved sister and the Gurus who actually cared for him for umpteen years because of his mother's foolish mistakes, and he doesn't have anything to say to her? I don't buy it at all, it just seems so unrealistic to me. It also seems really unrealistic that as a kid, he would find hatred towards Lavos [whom he knew very little about], as opposed to his mother which is someone that he's constantly exposed to and gets made aware of her drastic change when it occurs [he even mentions it to Schala]. Even if he didn't get along with her to begin with, it is his mother, whom he was probably around a lot. And given that he was warped out at a really young age, he hadn't had much time to grow attached or familiarity with anyone else besides close friends and family. Even if he hated her as a kid, she was still an important part of his life in that regard, aside from the obvious.

It depends on the person, you know I'm angry when I go completely silent so I can fully understand not wanting to give some mini-speech about "revenge" and "you ruined my life". From what you've told me about the types he represents, that is something I would expect them to do, Magus doesn't.

In the SNES version he basically tells her she's an idiot and he's going to end this. In the DS version he still says she's an idiot but says she at least deserves mercy.

In truth, I don't see why Magus would care to say anything really personal, he was too young to know what she was really like and what he probably remembers wasn't very good. He spends his entire time in Zeal disguising himself so he can destroy Lavos, this tells me that Magus knows that his identity to the people of Zeal is a moot gesture. Zeal is obviously mad and corrupted by Lavos and I don't think some emotionally charged "Tidus speech" about her never being a mother to him is really going to change the situation or make him a sympathetic character for the player.

If you really want to get speculative on the matter, I feel Magus didn't tell her cause she's already going to be guilt ridden for the rest of her life once she is no longer controlled by Lavos. Whether he did not tell her his identity to ease her pain of knowing his fate or whether he did it so she would always wonder what happened to the son she lost in her madness really depends on whether you want to see Magus as sympathetic or an asshole.

I'm expecting to hear a "well as a kid, he was so smart that he reasoned that Lavos was the one truly responsible for it all, and that's where he should focus all of his anger on, and not his mom who was actually the victim and probably made his childhood miserable due to her corruption" type argument from someone, and I would roll my eyes and say "Wow a genius child prodigy that has the mindset and reasoning capabilities of an adult despite the fact that he's 7 or something, gee I have NEVER seen that one in JRPG's/anime before" [sarcasm].

I would go with the obvious excuse that his knowledge came from the people around him. I'm certain Schala explained a few things to him when he asked, and lord knows he may have overheard a few lines of dialogue from the Gurus. Not to mention when they are in the earthbound village and the party talks with Schala and Melchior to discover how to save Zeal by destroying Lavos.

As for his "anger" I would once again point out that Janus is hardly sympathetic or likable. He was an arrogant asshole who hated everyone around him to begin with and he grew up basically to become the same thing. He's got a sympathetic back story but I really doubt his personality would really be different had he not changed. I feel the amusing thing about Magus is that he's one of the "dark badass" characters that doesn't really play the sympathy card nearly as heavy, if anyone does its the fans. The game shows the player what happens but its not like Magus or any of the other cast keep bringing up why he's so angry and aloof and try to paint him as sympathetic. He's a dick and he plays it well. :magus:

Says who? If they chose to go that route, then sure you're correct. They have the option to give his character actual depth and true soul, even if it's a cold one. They decided not to go in this direction. All of the characters at various points of the game have interesting interaction and character depth develop as you progress through the game, except Magus. There are ways to give a character much depth to make them interesting, without contradicting their personality slate.

Judging by his dialogue whenever you take him on any of the games side missions, he gives off the impression of being annoyed and wondering why the party is wasting their time. He does also play the cold asshole as he is quite indifferent in taking out his former henchmen and doesn't really seem to be bothered by Mother's human killing factory in the future. He's annoyed with Marle wasting their time in the present with her trying to save her father. I'd say the game paints a pretty clear picture of what kind of a person Magus is. The guy doesn't even say anything when he leaves your party.

In the new ending for the DS version, (SPOILER)we get a chance to see a future Magus (for some minor amusement, bring Magus with you) who finally finds Schala fused with Lavos as the Time Devourer. He gets his ass handed to him again but so does your whole party at which point Schala regains a bit of her consciousness and tells Magus that his power can't save her. She then frees Magus by erasing his memories and dumping him off in some unknown time and place. His last words was he remembered he was looking for something very important but couldn't remember what it was. So he gets a bit more closure and depth with the new ending.

Like I said, it would be nice for me to see a Magus-like character [and they're everywhere, at least one in almost every anime/video game], prejudge them based on their looks and initial attitude/dialogue, and actually be wrong about it. And yes some people somewhere will hate something no matter what, but I really feel that this direction would be for the better. I'm sick of seeing character archetype recipes being reused over and over. And small variations like "well this one's different, because he's actually evil!" or "well this one's different, because there's no time travel in this game" or "he wants revenge on his brother instead of a big monster" aren't really enough to make the distinction between all of them for me. That's sorta like some newcomer fic writer making one Mary Sue character after another, then giving the newest one a scar on his cheek and stating that he's bad at playing the Piano, then saying "See?? Unlike the others, this one has flaws!".

My only thought is what gaming character isn't based off some RPG/anime/literary cliche that has been written in the last decade let alone the medium? The amusing thing about writing is that people don't really seek out new and original, most find simple joy from predictability and regurgitation of old ideas; packaging them slightly different creates variety despite that packaging being paper thin. I am certain that if we listed all of your favorite characters we could easily attach most of them to common literary archetypes and videogame cliches such as Gau being the "wild boy" raised by animals.

I think I've pretty much said everything I have to say about my Magus rant. My latest rage-rant is about Arumat from Star Ocean 4. I'm ready to pounce the second I see a topic about him made.

You so need to talk to Darkwolf90, he LOVES him and has been wanting me to check him out. He pretty much loves this archetype in almost everything I've ever talked to him about he always gravitates to the horribly overpowered dark brooding badass.

For the record, again I'm sorry if I seem too feisty or rude, I really don't mean to be. I'm just really opinionated by nature and I get carried away with voicing it a lot.

No worries

[RedPouch]

NA Dialog:
MAGUS: Idiots...
Nothing can live forever.
MAGUS: Zeal...
A pitiful woman, duped by Lavos!
MAGUS: I, myself, will bring an end
to all of this!

JP Dialog:
MAGUS: Foolish......
All existence is unable to escape from the fate
of perishing......
MAGUS: Zeal.
A sad woman enthralled by Lavos.
Pitiful at best......
MAGUS: I will bring it all to an end by my hand!

Where'd you grab this from? I haven't seen the text myself but I have a friend who's half-Japanese and speaks both languages, and she said the conversation is slightly different than that.

Sounds like I'll love him

I don't doubt that. When I think about it, this character archetype which seems to have almost no variation at all, strikes me as those stupid junior high school "cliques", where all the "goths" dress and act a same certain way, all the "punks" dress and act a same certain way, and then the "preps" and so on. It seems so immature to me, that I can't help but want to get a screwdriver and poke said person's eyeballs out. I felt no different about Lymle and Meracle from SO4 as well, which brings me to another cliche I'm sick of - stupid little girls and characters with ridiculous little "catchphrases" or whatever that they stick at the end of EVERY sentence. God, I really SALKDJFAS;LFJSADLFJ smurfING HATE JAPANESE WRITERS MOST OF THE TIME.

*Cough* Pardon me.

As for the Lv. 2 Spells, Magus us actually better than everyone else, even Crono when using the Lv.2 magic cause his damage mulitpliers for his versions of the spells are much higher 7.25 as opposed to everyone else's 5.25). Hell his only nerfed ability is actually Dark Matter. As for not having a physical tech, what for? He's obviously a mage character and his normal attack isn't anything to call home about, besides, neither Marle or Lucca have any physical based techs. Frog has pitiful offensive magic and Robo needs tabs in order to actually be a contender beyond healing and physical. Ayla doesn't have any real magic attacks either.

Okay I really don't mean to sound rude, but I already said most of this basically. Did you fully read my posts... ?

Personally, I don't feel his elemental based magic causes much hindrance at all and when you do find an enemy that is magic resistant, that's what characters like Robo and Ayla are for. There really is no "perfect party" set up for this game so you might as well build a balance one.

Hm. Are you sure you read my original post covering this? I kinda get the feeling you only briefly skimmed through what I was saying.

In truth, I don't see why Magus would care to say anything really personal, he was too young to know what she was really like

What? Wasn't he around 7 or so when he was warped out of that time period? I remember much of what my mom was like back then, how could he not have? Even though it's a short lifespan, 7 years is still a significant amount of time, especially since he obviously got attached to her before she "changed" as he implies through his dialogue with Schala.

As for his "anger" I would once again point out that Janus is hardly sympathetic or likable. He was an arrogant asshole who hated everyone around him to begin with and he grew up basically to become the same thing.

Yes of course don't remind me. This is another cliche I get sick of as well "as a child, he was still dark and brooding, and a loner! Nobody really liked him much." Ugh.

I feel the amusing thing about Magus is that he's one of the "dark badass" characters that doesn't really play the sympathy card nearly as heavy, if anyone does its the fans. The game shows the player what happens but its not like Magus or any of the other cast keep bringing up why he's so angry and aloof and try to paint him as sympathetic. He's a dick and he plays it well.

Hardly plays anything at all... which is part of my chief complaint here. He's a dry, boring character.

Judging by his dialogue whenever you take him on any of the games side missions, he gives off the impression of being annoyed and wondering why the party is wasting their time. He does also play the cold asshole as he is quite indifferent in taking out his former henchmen and doesn't really seem to be bothered by Mother's human killing factory in the future. He's annoyed with Marle wasting their time in the present with her trying to save her father. I'd say the game paints a pretty clear picture of what kind of a person Magus is. The guy doesn't even say anything when he leaves your party.

Is this supposed to make his character interesting? I'm aware of this, which again is my chief complaint. He's an idiot. I probably would be more able to buy a character like this if I didn't see it all over the place. I think seeing the character recycled too much has made me truly bitter towards writers that fallback on this, because in all honesty, this is a VERY easy character to write and requires little effort in my opinion, and seeing it so many times has made it more and more uninteresting each time. Of course it's even worse now that I've seen about 40,000 more of this character, but even back when Chrono Trigger first came out, I still hated Magus for the same reasons.

My only thought is what gaming character isn't based off some RPG/anime/literary cliche that has been written in the last decade let alone the medium? The amusing thing about writing is that people don't really seek out new and original, most find simple joy from predictability and regurgitation of old ideas; packaging them slightly different creates variety despite that packaging being paper thin. I am certain that if we listed all of your favorite characters we could easily attach most of them to common literary archetypes and videogame cliches such as Gau being the "wild boy" raised by animals.

What's this imply? I don't like Gau for his personality or characterization. I just think he's cute.

Aside from that though, there are many ways to variate and be creative with character types [and yes you can throw the obvious fact out there that pretty much everything has been done several times by now]. Regardless, it's still annoying to see the Japanese stick to the same selection of 10~ish character types for all their anime/JRPG's. Naturally, there are many character types which get used a lot, however there are some which get used heaps with little variation. The latter bothers me more, obviously. Know what I mean now?

You so need to talk to Darkwolf90, he LOVES him and has been wanting me to check him out. He pretty much loves this archetype in almost everything I've ever talked to him about he always gravitates to the horribly overpowered dark brooding badass.

Eh, I can assure you that I've talked to thousands of Darkwolf90's. Like I said before, this type of character easily impresses western audiences, especially Americans. I don't see it as being any different from Sephiroth hype or FF VII hype or Avril Lavigne hype back when she was all the rage, or anything along those lines. God, hearing all the 14 year-olds blab about Avril Lavigne all day long was so irritating. I'm so glad that phase is over with.

[Wolf Kanno]

As for the Lv. 2 Spells, Magus us actually better than everyone else, even Crono when using the Lv.2 magic cause his damage mulitpliers for his versions of the spells are much higher 7.25 as opposed to everyone else's 5.25). Hell his only nerfed ability is actually Dark Matter. As for not having a physical tech, what for? He's obviously a mage character and his normal attack isn't anything to call home about, besides, neither Marle or Lucca have any physical based techs. Frog has pitiful offensive magic and Robo needs tabs in order to actually be a contender beyond healing and physical. Ayla doesn't have any real magic attacks either.

Okay I really don't mean to sound rude, but I already said most of this basically. Did you fully read my posts... ?

My points are simply this:

1. His versatility is useful to some people, maybe not you but this is a counter against your feeling he lacks cohesion with other party members. He may not have the skills you desire to build your ideal team but for me he works perfectly for what I need to do.

2. Magus is hardly useless, it really just depends on how you play the game. Most of the cast has serious faults so I find it difficult to agree with you that somehow Magus' weakness are somehow more detrimental than the other characters flaws. If you want true worthlessness, we only need to look at Marle where every one of her strengths is either better used by other party members or there is equipment and items that can do the same effect. Package this all together with one of the weakest characters and you truly have the games least useful character. Her only strength comes from Dual Techs and Triple Techs and most of those become obsolete in later playthroughs especially since parties using characters with big spells (like Magus) are better than wasting two characters turns to do less damage than having a better team setup using individual skills. Even then, I'm certain someone can come up with argument to prove that Marle is actually one of the best party members and it will probably come down to game play style.

For the Black Omen scenario, I generally use Magus to ease my way through most of the hordes of enemies in the dungeon. When I get to Zeal, I either take the counter (cause frankly, they are not that terrible) or use him as a healer so my normal healer (Usually Robo or Frog) can use their awesome physical skills to take her down. So I would disagree that he's useless and I feel your criteria for why he is useless is based more on your play style than actually being a viable complaint.

As for the translation of the scene at the Black Omen, here is the DS version:

Queen: You maggots… I am the Queen who shall rule for all eternity at Lavos's
side. You will not stand in my way!

Magus: Fool. No thing, no life, can last forever.

Magus: You are deceived. A pitiful plight… One deserving of mercy, at least.

[He swings his cape back]

Magus: I will put an end to all of this!

Queen: Accursed prophet! Do not think I have forgotten your transgression at
the Ocean Palace. You shall pay for it now with your life!

In regard to Magus being unoriginal, you have to remember that for some, this was their first introduction to him. He's a cliche now but back then he felt pretty fresh. I personally call the "Dark Badass Character" the Magus Archetype as I feel he was the original that really set the groundwork that everyone else copied. In Japanese culture he's not terribly original but in the U.S. in the mid 90's those shows were not exactly being played on Saturday morning so its not like many people are aware that he wasn't original at the time. :P

Nostalgia keeps him fresh for some and irritating for others.

[VeloZer0]

Where'd you grab this from?

http://chronofan.com/Black/Publicati...ter%2025-3.htm

... ... *Cough* Pardon me.

You probably shouldn't let me string you along like this.

Hardly plays anything at all... which is part of my chief complaint here. He's a dry, boring character.

To me it seems that a lot is left to the imagination. It is part of his character that he really doesn't lower himself to interact with the party on many occasions. Having him talk more would really make him a different character, you kind of have to imagine what he is thinking. You seem to be implying that you want everything laid out for you.

[RedPouch]

My points are simply this:

1. His versatility is useful to some people, maybe not you but this is a counter against your feeling he lacks cohesion with other party members. He may not have the skills you desire to build your ideal team but for me he works perfectly for what I need to do.

2. Magus is hardly useless, it really just depends on how you play the game. Most of the cast has serious faults so I find it difficult to agree with you that somehow Magus' weakness are somehow more detrimental than the other characters flaws.

Hm, I have to say to this that most players use tabs and will find more use out of other characters than Magus, because everything that he does can be easily matched/outdone by a few other characters, not to mention that he has no healing techniques and Magic Barrier is kinda useless. He has no physical techs when single-target is preferred to prevent unnecessary counter-attacks, which altogether is why I'm saying he lacks versatility and cohesion. Even without tabs, this doesn't really seem to change much. In my first post I stated that Magus' tier 2 magic is better than everyone else's [before you guys started pointing it out to me], which at that stage is kinda useless because you no longer gain anything out of being frugal and better options are available to you at that point.

For the Black Omen scenario, I generally use Magus to ease my way through most of the hordes of enemies in the dungeon. When I get to Zeal, I either take the counter (cause frankly, they are not that terrible) or use him as a healer so my normal healer (Usually Robo or Frog) can use their awesome physical skills to take her down. So I would disagree that he's useless and I feel your criteria for why he is useless is based more on your play style than actually being a viable complaint.

Only because for pretty much any situation I can think of, there's a character that could have taken his slot which would suit the battle far more without the consequences, unless of course you're someone that likes to play things in a way that makes them a bit more challenging. And that isn't me being sarcastic or anything, because I do that sometimes as well [I'm playing the version of FF V with Roogle right now, which apparently is harder than the normal one].

Queen: You maggots… I am the Queen who shall rule for all eternity at Lavos's
side. You will not stand in my way!

Magus: Fool. No thing, no life, can last forever.

Magus: You are deceived. A pitiful plight… One deserving of mercy, at least.

[He swings his cape back]

Magus: I will put an end to all of this!

Queen: Accursed prophet! Do not think I have forgotten your transgression at
the Ocean Palace. You shall pay for it now with your life!

Yes, even before VeloZer0 posted this and you after, I've already seen this a hundred times. Just because it's the DS translation, doesn't necessarily mean it's close to the original translation. Even with modern JRPG's, a lot of dialogue and sometimes entire personalities get changed quite a bit [look how much Kefka changed, though that's an older example]. I might be wrong but Raine [the friend I was referring to] speaks and reads Japanese very well and is a hardcore gamer, so I'm inclined to take her word on it.

We're going in circles though and repeating a ton of what's already been said like 2-4 times. You guys are stating mechanics and cases to me which are correct, but are also that which I'm already aware of and stated previously. I've also stated why I think most other characters are more useful. And yes, we all know Marle is the most useless junk in the game, though she still has more cohesion in my opinion. And hey, she's not entirely hopeless. She can still solo Lavos! I can't seem to get her to solo Spekkio in his pink Nu form though. Well not yet anyways. She just needs more leveling is all.

you kind of have to imagine what he is thinking. You seem to be implying that you want everything laid out for you.

Says who? Saying a lot doesn't necessarily mean that said person is laying out everything they're thinking.

... ... *Cough* Pardon me.

You probably shouldn't let me string you along like this.

Pfft don't flatter yourself. I string myself on. I always get like this when I rant about archetypes like this. If it isn't me ranting to you, then it's someone else.

Where'd you grab this from?

http://chronofan.com/Black/Publicati...ter%2025-3.htm
A couple things in here seem a little off, but I want to copy/paste it to her and see what she says before I say anything.