Do you think Squenix has lost vision of the FF series?

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12-24-2008, 08:24 AM
Wolf Kanno

Do you think Squenix has lost vision of the FF series?

By this I mean, do you sometimes feel that Squenix has lost the ability to know and plan where they really ant to take the franchise? This of course only works if you assume FF had a vision of where they wanted to go before hand (I know I do). It just seems to me when you look at the series, there is a gradual build up until you hit the PS2 era and then it feels like FF is going everywhere and lacks any solid direction and foundation.

New teams are getting shots at making FF games, and the old team seems stretched out everywhere on all these projects. Sometimes I don't even feel they are as involved. Yes, Nomura has vXIII and out of the XIII project it seems the strongest contender in terms of vision but what of the other two? XIII to me, seems to lack the enthusiasms of the development team and Agito; though looking surprisingly good, still feels like a pet project rather than a real contender.

What of the franchising of IV, VII, and the Ivalice Alliance? Do you sometimes feel that Squenix's sudden turn to going back and expanding established smash hits might be a sign of the company lacking creative force or perhaps a new direction to move away from the old ways.

Or do you get the sneaking suspicion that maybe the cause is Squenix trying to cater to a fickle fanbase. One that stretches over a 20 year history and incorporates a wide range of different ages and social standing?

What are your thoughts?
12-24-2008, 10:07 AM
Zechs

To a point, loosing the original creative main team that carried the series, for the most part, up to VIII (IX maybe). The artistic change in X was good. The more story driven theme was a nice addition. So, missing something? In a way, yes. But then again, the older teams who have handled FF titles cannot continue to develop something similar and yet something different. That is where new teams come in. integrating a few newer fellows into the development crew offers newer ideas. In an 'outside the box' kind of thing. But, too many new additions, and thew direction is not focused. Sure with a strong lead it could work. Without that lead, there will be something questionable.

They are probably trying to return to their prime to see what was different then vs now. PSX was the prime for Square, PS2 is like the sister era of that. So the Ivallice Alliance is a good step for that. Dealing with a few remakes and ports is fine. They need to learn what used to work. So a new company branch is perfect for that.

SE has driven further from their prime, to the point they seemingly lost sight of what they would have gone fore. Retracing some steps within the prime allows them to return and take another branch. You got to stick with what works. Even if it is joint with something new. It cannot be all new or it has no of hand appeal rather than test. And this day and age, titles that require testing before that acquired taste sets in usually fail.
12-25-2008, 12:19 PM
Slothy

Honestly, I like seeing new teams come in and tackle the series because we saw how well that worked in FFVI. If I had my way mind you, Matsuno would become the driving force behind every FF since XII is the first one in years I can say is truly amazing, but that's never going to happen. The problem as I see it currently, is that the same people have been involved in/running the series for 14 years or possibly more. There comes a point where they just aren't going to be able to push the creative envelope the way they used to if you ask me, and I think we're seeing that these days, especially when they go back and revisit earlier games. The only way Square is going to recapture the glory days if you ask me, is to get some younger guys with a true vision for the series in there. Guys with great ideas and the drive and desire to see them materialize and make them successful. New blood is rarely a bad thing. I'd rather Square take a chance on some new guys with great ideas and have them totally flop than consistently rely on the same people to rehash their glory days again and again.
12-25-2008, 12:38 PM
Vivisteiner

I think Vivi22 is right. SE needs some new guys to step up and become new Sakaguchis and Nomuras. My only worry though is that they may leave behind Sakaguchi's original vision, which I believe is still important. The general ethos of Final Fantasy is hard to define, but I will be able to feel when it is being lost. My worry is that the FF series will become all flash and no bang. SE won't fail to make brilliant cutscenes, but will they be able to create characters which connect with us and make us actually care about the plot? Will they have a coherent story? My biggest worry is definitely with the characters and the plot.

Music is another case where someone needs to step up and fill Uematsu's huge boots. No easy task, but Hamauzu has a fair shot. Ishimoto seems pretty good so far(but not amazing to me) and what I've heard of Shimomura in her Versus track is very impressive (but I didn't like her KH stuff so much).

I'm also worried the series may see to far a departure from its fantasy roots. The series is Final Fantasy, and while I enjoy sci-fi, I want them to continue producing fantasy games in the more traditional sense as well. I'm not talking about cliches necessarily, but the sort of stuff in FFIX, FFX and FFXII.

Finally I will make my final point about Final Fantasy. The Final Fantasy series will die when it loses originality. So long as Final Fantasy continues to push the boundaries of gaming in terms of new, fresh gameplay systems and imaginitive, cogent and powerful stories it has every right to continue for a long time to come. FFXIII and FFvXIII could very well be the defining games that decide the fate of the Final Fantasy series and finally confirm or counter the claim that SE have lost their vision.
12-25-2008, 12:57 PM
scrumpleberry

I don't think so. I am personally hoping that they make XIII the magnum opus of the team, and then just leave the FF series at that (Yeah, maybe doing rereleases and what have you in newer generations..) so that people remember the series for the fantastic and innovative RPGs that they were. Because I get the feeling that if they keep on going, things might start to look outdated, reused, and crappy - simply because they've done so many of the games now.

Leave Final Fantasy as a great series, squenix. Don't humiliate it and drag it through the mud coughing and wheezing, like Sonic.
12-25-2008, 06:48 PM
Rocket Edge

Have to disagree. Square haven't let me down yet, and I don't see them doing so in the future so I'm all for them releasing as many games as they see fit. They are still my favourite games.
12-25-2008, 11:44 PM
trancekuja

Actually , first time SE ever disappointed me was the release of Dirge Of Cerberus...Vincent was my favorite char from ff vii and I think he deserved a much more depth and overall quality in his solo debut...that's why I was a bit nervous about ff XII...even had mixed feelings in first hours of game play. Going from random enc to ADB was a giant leap from FF X and since I never actually had a problem with random enc ( I know you think RE are a thing of past and should remain there ) I thought that without them the game will loose that FFF(FF feeling). But later I realized that ADB brought many improvements into battles. If you look back , Squaresoft or SE never aimed to recycle same ideas and use the same formula which proved to be a sucess. Just compare FF7 , 8 , 9 , 10 and 12. For instance after FF7 they could just make the same game with different story but they go and make FF8 - completely different game from previous one ( junction system , character design etc...). Some liked it , others despised it... But one thing that never changed was an amazing and epic story! I was always drown to it like a deer to a truck. That's what distinguished FF from other RPG's I played... To make a conclusion : I sincerely hope that SquareEnix won't ever make change in this aspect of the game. Anything else , I can deal with
12-26-2008, 03:55 AM
Jessweeee♪

I trust them :spin:
12-26-2008, 01:42 PM
The Last Oath

Thats what i thought about FFXII... But it turned out to be a perfect FF in its own right.
There all different but all have their own features and similarities and I know I always end up loving it.
12-26-2008, 08:19 PM
Fynn

I think the main vision of the Final Fantasy series was that any game should be... final! I mean, every part is a new story, thus a new element must be introduced. Final Fantasy is a series that keeps its formula changing. Besides, it is just a computer game and I don't think people should lose faith in something that is meant to give entertainment, a gripping story and memorable themes. I just want to see what the new games have to offer. By the way, I simply ADORE the Ivalice Alliance. It's so great, I don't know what to say about it...
12-26-2008, 08:45 PM
black orb

>>> FF series needs to evolve and change.. There are tons of talented people out there that can become the next Sakaguchi, Amano, Nomura, etc.. I think SE understand this.
12-26-2008, 09:05 PM
Depression Moon

I don't think FF has lost the vision of the series. XII was different with different developers as I can see why they did it, they wanted a change of pace and they made it well, I just wished that the story could have been done better. I don't want to see any other missteps like Dirge of Cerberus, or XI either. I haven't played XI and I'm not saying it's bad, but to me it doesn't seem like it qualifes to be a real FF and should have been a spin off game called FF Online. If they had done that I guess XII would've been XI and XII just doesn't look like an XI. I also think they should probably focus more on their main titles than a lot of remakes and ports, because we're all tired of the long delays between the releases and I say that probably for the meantime keep the older developers to do a couple of projects before retiring and get Uematsu to do at least one full score before going back to Mistwalker.
12-27-2008, 06:27 AM
Wolf Kanno

Playing devil's advocate is fun! :)

Wow, really great comments so far. Though I find it funny no one has touched the question regarding the fanbase.

I'll wait for some more good comments before establishing my real feelings about this topic.
12-28-2008, 12:51 PM
Slothy

The thing is, I don't think they're trying to cater to a fickle fanbase that spans 20 years right now. If anything, they're doing more to cater to the crowd that's come on board since FFVII, what with all the FFVII spin offs in the last few years. The remakes and re-releases certainly cater to the older crowd, and are a bit of an attempt to pull some newer gamers into the fold, but let's face it, most people who care enough to play the older ones probably played ROMs when they realized there were six or more games before the one that got them hooked on the series.

If you ask me they shouldn't be trying to cater to the full fanbase with the main series though. Yes FF typically has some unifying elements, but part of the reason there's so much division over what games are the best is because each one totally changed up the gameplay and story formula, and even at the worst of times it was more imaginative and creative than a good chunk of RPG's out there. Granted in the process you piss off some fans, but that's not always a bad thing. I'm a big believer in the idea that if you give gamers a new and creative game that are also fun as hell to play, and the majority will play it and they'll enjoy it. What worries me about the continuation of the series as a whole is that the people behind it are also the people who have been riding on VII's success for the last few years (and fairly poorly I might add, despite my love of Advent Children solely as a visual spectacle). I'm not convinced at this point that they can make the next FF games new, creative, or fun as hell. Honestly, no matter what angle I look at the future of the series from, I can't help but come back to the fact that I don't have a lot of faith in the people running it now. Hopefully they prove me wrong.
12-29-2008, 05:20 AM
Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

By this I mean, do you [...]
What are your thoughts?

Will you feel the same thing after the release of FFXIII?
01-03-2009, 06:23 PM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serapy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

By this I mean, do you [...]
What are your thoughts?

Will you feel the same thing after the release of FFXIII?

I already answered this but...

It depends, I need SE to succeed with a few FFs in a row for me to become confident in them again. I would probably be more accepting if SE stopped hiring Nojima for his services cause he has never written a good plot on his own. His style is very amateurish and very pretentious and I don't like having the game tell me the equivalent of a children's story and at the same time treat me like I'm too stupid to understand what's going on.

********************************************
(Further thoughts)

I guess my issue is that Nojima/Kitase/and Nomura are creators for the mainstream. Its not a bad thing but I always felt FF was suppose to be on the edge defining the genre rather than just being the most well made. I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like. Even though VIII was a title they worked on, I admit I felt even then, it was moving towards a more mainstream approach but its drastic art and gameplay change saved it.

I appreciate trying to redefine "fantasy" by going to their Japanese roots but its plot is literally one of the most overdone legends in Japanese mythology and its most unique concepts was a rip-off from VII with a greater emphasis on the Buddhist belief system. My other issue was that the plot made it too easy to invoke emotion from the player and rather than do it low-key, it laid it on so thick that the drama was more comical than tear jerking. In fact its rather bland cast had to overuse the plot devices to invoke any real emotion cause they themselves were lacking of any character.

Playing X felt like watching a casual Hollywood blockbuster, it doesn't have real actors just people who look the part, its plot tries to be thought provoking but its so poorly written/told that its depth is the equivalent of a blank fortune cooking, and the whole thing was very predictable, you knew going in how it was all going to turn out.

For a movie, its a few hours of your life you wasted cause you might have been bored, as a game it was 40 hours, and coming from a series that had blown me away with each installment; X fell short big time by basically being like every other RPG on the market except have the best graphics and sound quality. I don't know about anyone else but I don't really play these games for pretty graphics.

XI is a good game but the direction to MMO gameplay makes the game not well received in most of the fanbase. I personally have been having a blast with the game but I cannot bring myself to let it be a part of the numbered series.

Then there was XII which I thoroughly enjoyed cause it brought back the edge into the series. Yet XII has one fatal flaw... FFTactics, Ivalice was an established world long before XII and the dream world of Matsuno. XII was his way to bring his vision of the FF he created back then; yet here is where the problem lies. Ivalice will always be Matsuno's and the Tactic's world. Despite how good it is, its hard to accept it as a numbered FF cause it is literally another chapter in the World of Ivalice. It would be like Dragon Quest IX suddenly getting retitled as FF XIV. It may be a great game but its obviously a DQ game no matter how you see it. And though I felt XII brought the series back to its original spirit and felt far more like an FF then X; it doesn't change the fact that Matsuno is gone and his team is working on building up the Ivalice world. So we are now back to the people who originally destroyed my faith in the franchise and all they keep doing is showing flashy trailers with things they know fans want to see...

I keep telling myself that X was a fluke, it was a game where so many bad decisions happened at once and I should not judge the team cause one game went disastrously bad for me. Yet playing any other title they have involvement in (i.e. Compilation of FFVII) I find myself seeing the same terrible pattern I saw in X. Yet I cannot really blame Kitase and Nomura. I blame it all on one person, Nojima.

During all this time, I've watched Nojima fail miserably as a writer, I hate what he has done with Kingdom Hearts and the VII Compilation and anything else he somehow gets involved with. He has steadily gotten worse over the years with his writing. He needs to no longer be hired for service cause he cannot write anything intelligent, rather he just writes what the brain dead masses want and in turn makes them more brain dead. I generally blame him for the fall of the FF series, I noticed that he is generally the key factor in whether I like a title or not anymore. If he's involved the story pisses me off cause of its show boating and inconsistencies and over the top soap opera drama. If its anyone else, it is amazing and good. SE just needs to drop the dead weight in their development staff.

*END RANT*
01-05-2009, 05:18 PM
champagne supernova

Kitase has been involved in a more hands-off role as a producer for a while now, so he won't be leading any team from now on. And Kingdom Hears, X and X-2, despite what you have against them, are technically very polished. So he seems to be a skilled producer and should stay there. Nojima no longer works for Square-Enix, so it looks like your wish has been granted Wolf. Although, you should possibly be ranting at Kitase, seeing that he produced the entire compilation, and seems to be one of the people who is really behind it, whereas Nojima was only involved in Crisis Core and Before Crisis.

If you want to see the future of Square-Enix, look at the two titles coming up, and the people who are the creative heads of them both.

XIII: Motomu Toriyama. Worked his way up through Square-Enix, doing work on VII and VIII. Was the Event Director for X and the Director for X-2. He also was the Scenario Writer and Director of Revenant Wings (which basically means he was in charge of that).

Versus XIII: Tetsuya Nomura. Great character designer. Very heavily involved in Kingdom Hearts. Apparently (I'm not sure if this is true), he wrote the original story for VII.

I reckon that Nomura will win this battle. You might not like the mood of Kingdom Hearts, but Nomura's vision for Versus is a dark, realistic title. If he did write the original story for VII, it shows that he has the capability to create a good story. Toriyama is decent, I'm sure, but I think Square might have lost some faith in him after X-2.
01-05-2009, 07:17 PM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Kitase has been involved in a more hands-off role as a producer for a while now, so he won't be leading any team from now on. And Kingdom Hears, X and X-2, despite what you have against them, are technically very polished. So he seems to be a skilled producer and should stay there. Nojima no longer works for Square-Enix, so it looks like your wish has been granted Wolf. Although, you should possibly be ranting at Kitase, seeing that he produced the entire compilation, and seems to be one of the people who is really behind it, whereas Nojima was only involved in Crisis Core and Before Crisis.

Nojima also wrote the plot to Advent Children and I could have sworn that he is credited for being the writer of all the Compilation projects. Despite being freelance, SE continues to hire his services cause they seem to have no one else.

I don't necessarily dislike Kitase and I agree he's a decent Producer, but I feel his strengths lie in writing and directing. I always felt the gameplay side of the titles he produces fall flat but its hard to blame him cause he plays to his strength so more emphasis is placed on the story, graphics and presentation. I don't dislike the man but I feel he would be better suited elsewhere.

Quote:

If you want to see the future of Square-Enix, look at the two titles coming up, and the people who are the creative heads of them both.

XIII: Motomu Toriyama. Worked his way up through Square-Enix, doing work on VII and VIII. Was the Event Director for X and the Director for X-2. He also was the Scenario Writer and Director of Revenant Wings (which basically means he was in charge of that).

I have yet to play Revnant Wings but I'm afraid the rest of his resume doesn't bode well for me yet he's still technically the "new guy" so it would be fair to give him a fair shot but reading his interviews concerning XIII I feel he has missed the point as he seems more focused on graphics and the quality of the technology rather than the fundamentals of what makes a game shine. Time will tell though.

Quote:

Versus XIII: Tetsuya Nomura. Great character designer. Very heavily involved in Kingdom Hearts. Apparently (I'm not sure if this is true), he wrote the original story for VII.

Nomura and Sakeguchi wrote the original story of VII together, Kitase and Nojima went through and created a script from it that was used as the game's scenario.

Nomura is like Kitase in that he likes flash and action. It doesn't surprise me cause he's an artist and thus his stories tend to be more of a visual medium rather than a thinking one. Despite this I don't hate the man but I do feel his talents are overrated at times. Nomura to me has always been a very mainstream type of guy, his designs are more about broad appeal rather than being edgy and he's a man who's influences are very apparent to anyone who has knowledge of Japaneses Culture for the last two decades.

Despite this, Nomura seems to have figured out what Sakeguchi was trying to do with the series and I have a bit more faith in Versus cause Nomura has a better and more cohesive idea of what he wants in terms of story and gameplay.

Quote:

I reckon that Nomura will win this battle. You might not like the mood of Kingdom Hearts, but Nomura's vision for Versus is a dark, realistic title. If he did write the original story for VII, it shows that he has the capability to create a good story. Toriyama is decent, I'm sure, but I think Square might have lost some faith in him after X-2.

I don't consider VII to be a masterpiece in terms of writing. Its plot and cast I felt were the games weakest elements; so I'm afraid soothing me with, "its the guys who did VII" doesn't help. :( The compilation has three of the four masterminds behind VII working on them and I consider everything except LO to be total crap from the project.

I have nothing against KH as a series, but I felt Nojima dropped the ball in KH2. The series seemed to be going somewhere and then Nojima smurfed it all up when he did KH2 and half-assed tied every thing up. I feel Daisuke Watanabe should be the sole writer for KH cause I felt he did the strongest entry in the series and he was one of the four writers in the first game. Nojima was the sole writer of KH2 which is why the quality dropped significantly for the sake of random and unnecessary plot twists and side stories.

I feel Nomura will win as well but I also feel that Versus will meet the same fate as XI and XII (as well as X if you're like me) and be so different that most of the fanbase will not accept it as the true sequel to the series. I still feel the ideal behind the XIII project has never been explained very well and it will shoot SE in the foot in the end of this charade. I feel SE's downward spiral is a direct result of Sakeguchi leaving, Nojima being left unchecked, and Wada being more about the money.
01-05-2009, 08:33 PM
champagne supernova

I know that Kitase feels that Versus would not be considered a numbered Final Fantasy, which is probably why it has been put in this Fabula Nova series. But I disagree with you on the gameplay in the games Kitase produces. The battle systems in X and X-2 were the best the series had ever seen (I'm talking about the actual battles, not the way they are encountered). X-2 was very fun to play - maybe it's mood and story were very light-hearted and silly, but the gameplay saved it for me. Also, Kitase has not worked in a position of creative leadership for a while, so he would be very rusty.

Yasumi Matsuno would probably have been the heir apparent to lead the series, but he is no longer part of Square-Enix, which is unfortunate. I think maybe the two guys who replaced him should be given a shot, because they had to work with a half done project.

I feel that Toriyama actually needs to be given a chance to prove himself. Yes, X-2 is not really a Final Fantasy, but then again (just like the gentlemen mentioned above), he was forced to work on a vision that wasn't his. XIII will be able to show his true ability. And from what I heard about Revenant Wings, it seemed to have been well done.

Nojima was involved in 3 of the Compilation games. But he is not involved in any of the Fabula Nova games. So no worries there. And also, as I mentioned earlier, the Compilation games are not the priority of Square-Enix. How much attention can Nomura give to Advent Children when he is also busy working on Kingdom Hearts and Versus XIII (not mentioning his character design role)? Ditto with Kitase.

I do not want Sakaguchi back. Look at what has happened with his Mistwalker company. He has lost his touch. In X, he was apparently against the transition from 2D to 3D and voice-acting. Final Fantasy has constantly evolved, and Sakaguchi did not want it to.

I agree that VII might not be the masterpiece of storytelling. But it is intriguing and it is exciting. I liked the story of X, but VII is definitely more exciting. It suggests that Nomura is able to create interesting characters, create drama, and make a story that you want to find out more. And VII was released more than a decade ago, so his storytelling ability should have improved (hopefully).

From what I have seen of Versus, I am excited. And the new footage of XIII has excited me as well. It looks like we may have two truly great Final Fantasy games being released.

But I will agree that this is not a secure time for Square-Enix. A new set of people are working on it from now on. But there was a time when Kitase moved up from a similar role. And Sakaguchi was once a rookie. Everybody has to come from somewhere. And I think that Toriyama has been surrounded and learnt under the greatest talents in the genre, and Nomura has shown that he has great potential.
01-06-2009, 06:25 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

I know that Kitase feels that Versus would not be considered a numbered Final Fantasy, which is probably why it has been put in this Fabula Nova series. But I disagree with you on the gameplay in the games Kitase produces. The battle systems in X and X-2 were the best the series had ever seen (I'm talking about the actual battles, not the way they are encountered). X-2 was very fun to play - maybe it's mood and story were very light-hearted and silly, but the gameplay saved it for me. Also, Kitase has not worked in a position of creative leadership for a while, so he would be very rusty.

We will have to agree to disagree as I consider X to have the worst gameplay in the series and X-2's is horribly overrated. I felt XII did a better job with the New ATB system introduced in X-2 than X-2 did. As for Kitase, he has been working in a position creatively for awhile, reading his notes from the X and X-2 Ultimania, its obvious he had a very strong influence on the story and world in those games. To be honest, I should be considering VI and VII to be flukes since he was so involved with X and X-2's plots but I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:

Yasumi Matsuno would probably have been the heir apparent to lead the series, but he is no longer part of Square-Enix, which is unfortunate. I think maybe the two guys who replaced him should be given a shot, because they had to work with a half done project.

There is a good chance they may get a shot especially considering that one of them is Ito and he has alot of experience. He actually co-directed FFVI with Kitase and he's the man responsible for most of the FF series combat systems among other accomplishments. He's a vet whose been there since the beginning with Sakeguchi. He's also my choice for the man to take lead of the franchise.

Minegawa, I'm not so sure of as his past experience cause he's mostly been an art director for the Ivalice team. XII was his first experience as a director and I feel he mostly got the gig cause he worked intimately with Matsuno and thus had the best idea of what he wanted for XII to be.

Quote:

I feel that Toriyama actually needs to be given a chance to prove himself. Yes, X-2 is not really a Final Fantasy, but then again (just like the gentlemen mentioned above), he was forced to work on a vision that wasn't his. XIII will be able to show his true ability. And from what I heard about Revenant Wings, it seemed to have been well done.

I agree, cause it is true, he has never worked on a solo project before. He always does sequels. In fact his other current project is the sequel to the Parasite Eve series for cell phone. It will be interesting to see what he can do but I'm still skeptical due to his interviews and what I have seen. Still their is a good chance it may be good. I really hope it is.

Quote:

Nojima was involved in 3 of the Compilation games. But he is not involved in any of the Fabula Nova games. So no worries there. And also, as I mentioned earlier, the Compilation games are not the priority of Square-Enix. How much attention can Nomura give to Advent Children when he is also busy working on Kingdom Hearts and Versus XIII (not mentioning his character design role)? Ditto with Kitase.

The Compilation has seemed to be Kitase's main focus for the last few years, especially considering how many interviews he's done concerning them. Nomura directed AC, so really, they both had major influences on the project. Granted Nomura's involvement ended with AC (though what a "Creative Producer" is I don't know cause he's credited with it in Crisis Core) and afterwards he only supplied Character design but he seemed to have felt that the Compilation should have ended with AC. Nomura is still working on several projects even now especially since the three KH spin-off/prequels will be released before Versus will ever be.

I doubled check and you are right that Nojima is not involved in the XIII project... and you have no idea how happy that makes me. :jess: I think my interest in the XIII projects just went up. Everyone kept saying the X team so I just assumed Nojima was going to return as scenario writer. Hell, even the KH games have gone up on my list since he won't be involved. I could have sworn I heard he was still scenario writer for one of them though...

Quote:

I do not want Sakaguchi back. Look at what has happened with his Mistwalker company. He has lost his touch. In X, he was apparently against the transition from 2D to 3D and voice-acting. Final Fantasy has constantly evolved, and Sakaguchi did not want it to.

Its not that he didn't want it, he seemed more concerned whether they could do it right. VIII was originally suppose to have VA but was scratched due to technology limitations. You have to admit that X was dialogue heavy. Considering they were trying to make both a transition to 3D backgrounds and VA at the same time, I could see where one might not think it would work well. X didn't even make a complete transition anyway since most of the backgrounds were still presented in the tpical 2D styles.

Tbh, I don't feel either of these contributions were groundbreaking or useful for the series at the time. The 3D backgrounds were better used in XI and XII cause they were done properly. VA just allowed FF to catch up to everyone else. I feel this statement is a misunderstanding than him being pissy about innovation; especially when you consider how much he pushed innovation from his staff. He said he constanly challenged the staff to try different things to keep the series fresh and interesting.

He pushes for innovation but he's only as good as his team. I don't believe Sakeguchi is a great director or writer. He never really designed a battle system (that was Ito) but I feel he was the visionary of the series and looking at his titles from Mistwalker, I feel he still has this quality. He just no longer has the team to pull them off as well. The only complaint I've heard in regards to Mistwalkers titles is that their gameplay is decidely "old school" beyond that, their plots and music were amazing. I feel at this point it comes down to personal taste. Despite that, I feel all his titles under Mistwalker have done some innovative things.

Quote:

I agree that VII might not be the masterpiece of storytelling. But it is intriguing and it is exciting. I liked the story of X, but VII is definitely more exciting. It suggests that Nomura is able to create interesting characters, create drama, and make a story that you want to find out more. And VII was released more than a decade ago, so his storytelling ability should have improved (hopefully).

VII was intriguing but I found its plot disappointing and its cast to be bland and dislikable, but thats me I guess. I agree its world and plot had intriguing elements though.

VII had four different writer, and from the sound of things its main themes were more of Sakeguchi's contribution since he was still dealing with the death of his mother at the time. Nomura's involvement was probably just as great, we know he was behind the characters themselves and Aerith's death. I feel Nomura has intriguing ideas, I'm curious to see if he can actually pull them off by himself. Up until now he has always had Nojima and Watanabe to help him write his stories for him. Its why Versus will be interesting.

Quote:

From what I have seen of Versus, I am excited. And the new footage of XIII has excited me as well. It looks like we may have two truly great Final Fantasy games being released.

Versus looks the better, but I worry it will be 90% cutscenes and 10% gameplay. It doesn't feel like an FF though, more like a Godfather inspired version of Devil May Cry. I still feel there is not enough info to say how it might be either way.

XIII on the hand has an intriguing plot but the trailers feel like 10 other titles I've played before and some of the ideas in the game seem downright silly (Mecha Shiva Bike!!!). I don't like its over emphasis on wire-fu action, it just feels "cheap" to me. The same way it did In AC. The trailers just show me a bunch of popular ideas and cliches that nerdy otaku like crammed together to be a fanboy wet dream. At best it feels like an amalgam of VII, VIII, and X combined, which is not a winning combo in my book.

Still, there is little to be seen on the game and even I admit that I can't say for sure it sucks or is a "sell-out" title but the trailers don't help its case. At this point, I feel SE should stay quiet until the game is released.

Quote:

But I will agree that this is not a secure time for Square-Enix. A new set of people are working on it from now on. But there was a time when Kitase moved up from a similar role. And Sakaguchi was once a rookie. Everybody has to come from somewhere. And I think that Toriyama has been surrounded and learned under the greatest talents in the genre, and Nomura has shown that he has great potential.

I don't feel Toriyama was under the best in the business, maybe its "second string" but not the best Square had to offer at the time. Yet, I do agree that its time to watch the new talent come up and see what they can do. He may even surprise us all. We have new teams and teams that have lost their visionary leaders. I wouldn't even be surprised if Nomura decided to leave SE in a few more years and went freelance or opened his own studio with the KH team. The next few years will be interesting, I just hope Wada steps down during that time.
01-08-2009, 08:12 PM
Bolivar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like.

Alot more people than anime nerds not only liked but flat out loved FFX. Your feelings on it being disaster after disaster combined is in the minority of a minority of opinions, for most it was a groundbreaking title that brought JRPGs and the entire gaming industry in general, into the next-generation (ps2/gamecube/xbox) at the time.

On the topic:
--------------------------------

The vision for final fantasy is a groundbreaking, blockbuster, mega-event, big budget computer entertainment experience that redefines the boundaries for gameplay and raises the bar on tech. This is no better exemplified with the first installment, FFI having unrivaled battle animations and arguably the first RPG to show your lineup on one side of the screen. Since the beginning, making 3D games on the NES, Squaresoft has always been about top graphics and top gameplay. Final Fantasy XII, the last entry in the series, embodies this vision on all fronts.

For this reason I cannot possibly suggest that Square Enix has lost its vision. As far as the fanbase goes, the only problem placating a multi-generational army of fans that's been built up over the last 20 years, is how little the last game, FFXII resembled the style of the earlier ones. Although it was a game lacking of the FF "feel", I don't think anyone could doubt that it represented a massive contribution to the gaming artform.

I have faith in Toriyama because looking at his resume, events in FFVII, director FFX, X-2, and Revenant Wings, it's clear he at least knows how to make fun games, and is good at it.

Sakaguchi should no longer be carried as the standardbearer for what the FF series originally was. It's becoming clear through interviews, especially with the developers for III and IV DS, that he was not in a development role in the original titles. There is no better evidence than the games that he has produced since leaving Square: Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon were both panned as unfulfilled, tedious, last-generation games awkwardly on a new console. ASH for the DS had been universally panned as just a bad game. He's 0 for 3, with his 4th game (Cry On) being cancelled due to "the economy". Even with heavy hitters like Akira Toriyama, Hitoshi Sakimoto and Nobuo Uematsu, failing to produce quality material puts his reputation in question.
01-08-2009, 08:29 PM
Kawaii Ryûkishi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

By this I mean, do you sometimes feel that Squenix has lost the ability to know and plan where they really ant to take the franchise? This of course only works if you assume FF had a vision of where they wanted to go before hand (I know I do). It just seems to me when you look at the series, there is a gradual build up until you hit the PS2 era and then it feels like FF is going everywhere and lacks any solid direction and foundation.

Bureaucracy chased away whatever talent was left guiding the franchise, including Sakaguchi and Matsuno, while playing up the influence of hacks like Nomura. I'll definitely take Lost Odyssey over what FFXIII is shaping up to be.
01-12-2009, 10:13 PM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like.

Alot more people than anime nerds not only liked but flat out loved FFX. Your feelings on it being disaster after disaster combined is in the minority of a minority of opinions, for most it was a groundbreaking title that brought JRPGs and the entire gaming industry in general, into the next-generation (ps2/gamecube/xbox) at the time.

I don't find myself as a "minority of a minority" there are more people who dislike X than you would believe. I made my "swear jar" so I won't go into this but I will ask what X did that was so groundbreaking?

Voice acting? Existed years before that in games and RPGs.

CTB? Its just a modified ATB on wait mode and has not been seen since.

3D Backgrounds? Were not even implemented the way they were intended by the creators. In fact, their original goal was very much XII's system.

Story? That's more personal opinion and is hardly innovated, even you have to admit that X's plot is more Hollywood than Tolstoy ;)

Quote:

On the topic:
--------------------------------

The vision for final fantasy is a groundbreaking, blockbuster, mega-event, big budget computer entertainment experience that redefines the boundaries for gameplay and raises the bar on tech. This is no better exemplified with the first installment, FFI having unrivaled battle animations and arguably the first RPG to show your lineup on one side of the screen. Since the beginning, making 3D games on the NES, Squaresoft has always been about top graphics and top gameplay. Final Fantasy XII, the last entry in the series, embodies this vision on all fronts.

Here's where I disagree, cause I don't see FF meaning any of these things. Groundbreaking and computer entertainment yes but none of the other. You are describing a movie more than a game series in my mind. That is not what FF is to me and though its a direction I know Sakaguchi pushed the series into, I felt when he was in charge their was still an artistic quality about the products that is lacking in today's titles.

We will have to disagree cause I know already we will never convince each other. ;)

Quote:

For this reason I cannot possibly suggest that Square Enix has lost its vision. As far as the fanbase goes, the only problem placating a multi-generational army of fans that's been built up over the last 20 years, is how little the last game, FFXII resembled the style of the earlier ones. Although it was a game lacking of the FF "feel", I don't think anyone could doubt that it represented a massive contribution to the gaming artform.

They have lost their ability to stand up for their products and fanbase. Though XII is the most critically acclaimed FF in the series, its disliked by the fanbase, especially the Japanese fanbase and has since gone out of their way to present XIII as being nothing like XII (even saying so) and will be more like X. A game that is not as widely critically acclaimed but is the Japanese audiances favorite title in the series. They even let Matsuno go without saying why. It bothers me that you would create something and not stand by it when the fans get finnicky. Sakaguchi at least stood by his flop, even if it cost him everything. Hell, The World Ends with You has done very well in the West but because the Japanese audience disliked it, President Wada has now implemented rules saying he will fire people if they don't make successful games. SE is now a buisness and has lost its artistic soul in my opinion.

Quote:

I have faith in Toriyama because looking at his resume, events in FFVII, director FFX, X-2, and Revenant Wings, it's clear he at least knows how to make fun games, and is good at it.

I can't share your optimism cause I don't feel fondly about three of those titles and have yet to play the fourth (RW). His resume does not change my feelings about the future. I'm still willing to give him a shot though.

Quote:

Sakaguchi should no longer be carried as the standardbearer for what the FF series originally was. It's becoming clear through interviews, especially with the developers for III and IV DS, that he was not in a development role in the original titles. There is no better evidence than the games that he has produced since leaving Square: Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon were both panned as unfulfilled, tedious, last-generation games awkwardly on a new console. ASH for the DS had been universally panned as just a bad game. He's 0 for 3, with his 4th game (Cry On) being cancelled due to "the economy". Even with heavy hitters like Akira Toriyama, Hitoshi Sakimoto and Nobuo Uematsu, failing to produce quality material puts his reputation in question.

First, I would take the interviews with a grain of salt. I'm not sure if you have noticed but SE has been sytematically remving Sakaguchi from the FF series. He is not even listed anymore in the original staff credits for the ports and remakes. Apparently, the original FFV didn't have a director... This is not surprisng cause the Japanese culture is all about saving face and lets face it, Sakaguchi did bankrupt Square with the FF movie, though he did more damage when he stepped down as VP.

I've read quite a few interviews concerning III and IV and have never heard anything negative about Sakaguchi, they just don't mention him. Cause SE would like us to forget about him. I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I did find it disturbing he's no longer credited in the games we know he worked on. Its weird that years later, SE would admit an employee that is no longer in good standing with the company would state he had little to do with former titles. He first became their scapegoat and now he's being erased from their history. As a history lover, you should understand this isn't too far fetched. Its all about politics.

As for Mistwalker's games, I find it funny that they have not done well critically but I don't know anyone who really hates them. The games fanbases are close to FF fantatical. I find it hard to believe Blue Dragon did poorly seeing as its a TV show, Toy line, has a sequel in the works... The main complaints I hear about his titles is their lack of innovation in the gameplay department and bit of "borrowing" from earlier titles. (LO Twins anyone?) yet most reviews I've read say these titles nothing but positive things. He also has the burden of having a lot of expectations on his shoulder and the fact is, Sakaguchi is not that talented. I said before that Sakaguchi is a "balancer" he has the ability to take people's talents and work them into the best outcome. He's only as good as his team and Ito is the man who brought gameplay innvoation into the FF series. Sakaguchi is not always successful but who is? Certainly not SE whose "system selling power" legacy has dwindled considerably in the last 8 years.

I don't know anyone who even cares about XIII, not even FF fans seem to care anymore. Ten years ago, most gaming mags would die to get a bit of info on the next FF or Square title but in recent years, SE is lucky to get a footnote and it usally has a bit of sarcastic wit instead of abated breath of things to come. Has there even been a high profile JRPG in the last few years? The kind that everyone talks about and is obsessing over months after its release, like they did in the PS1 era? No. Maybe Persona 3 but that's more about the title coming out of nowhere and being successful despite little PR. Its more cult hit than mainstream smash hit.

SE's biggest hits in the last few years have been ports of successful titles, remakes of succesful titles, and a fighting game that has a collection of characters from successful titles. I feel SE has seen their "Golden Age" and while fans have moved on, SE still thinks they have the same influence they did ten years ago. The media and even part of the fanbase consider them a sell-out and a joke. Its reaching the point the company is having a backlash from its former supporters.

I don't completely blame SE, part of this is just the fact that SE's specialty is no longer a major contender in the gaming market nowadays. I don't think SE realized that RPGs were a fad in the gaming community and that's why they were always hits. The market is now saturated and the community has moved onto the next big thing (like they did with platforming and fighting games in the early to mid 90's). Its not that RPGs no longer sell, but SE should not expect the same level of prosperity as they recieved in the late 90's. It seems as though if a title doesn't become an overwhelming smash hit, its deemed a failure. They have become like Disney in the aftermath of the Lion King phenomena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

Bureaucracy chased away whatever talent was left guiding the franchise, including Sakaguchi and Matsuno, while playing up the influence of hacks like Nomura. I'll definitely take Lost Odyssey over what FFXIII is shaping up to be.

I agree, I feel Square's success has ruined the company and destroyed the original creative spirit it once had. It still has talented people working there but I'm very skeptical SE will ever reclaim the throne that Square had in the late 90's. Especially since anyone who has talent seems to jump ship. I can't fathom why SE would let Matsuno go.
01-13-2009, 01:40 AM
Karellen

Matsuno makes games like Vagrant Story. Square Enix makes games like Kingdom Hearts.

Did they let him go though? I thought he quit.
01-13-2009, 06:22 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karellen

Matsuno makes games like Vagrant Story. Square Enix makes games like Kingdom Hearts.

Did they let him go though? I thought he quit.

I meant more that SE would allow a guy with such high critical success to leave. Whether they would fire him or let him quit, the man was a genius. You would think they would name him a price.

I get the impression he was fired, probably for taking so damn long on XII ;) I believe the Wikipedia states XII holds the record for longest production time of a console game. This is assuming that Duke Nukem Forever will inevitably be canceled. :rolleyes2

The whole thing is still a bit of a mystery and considering Matsuno has disappeared from the limelight we may never know unless he turns up.
01-13-2009, 08:26 AM
The Man

Far too tired to do anything more than skim the thread at this point, but I'm just going to say that the Square in charge of producing FF games now pretty much isn't at all the Square that was producing FF games twenty years ago. I don't think any of the original content creators are even still working at the company. So it's not all that surprising that the content they're creating would be different... and honestly, most of it doesn't really interest me that much. Maybe I'll play FFXII at some point, but for now I'm honestly more interested in the remakes of old games than the new games. Then again, I have... odd taste.

Basically, I agree with Kishi and what I've read of Wolf Kanno's posts.
01-13-2009, 09:18 PM
Bolivar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like.

Alot more people than anime nerds not only liked but flat out loved FFX. Your feelings on it being disaster after disaster combined is in the minority of a minority of opinions, for most it was a groundbreaking title that brought JRPGs and the entire gaming industry in general, into the next-generation (ps2/gamecube/xbox) at the time.

I don't find myself as a "minority of a minority" there are more people who dislike X than you would believe. I made my "swear jar" so I won't go into this but I will ask what X did that was so groundbreaking?

Voice acting? Existed years before that in games and RPGs.

CTB? Its just a modified ATB on wait mode and has not been seen since.

3D Backgrounds? Were not even implemented the way they were intended by the creators. In fact, their original goal was very much XII's system.

Story? That's more personal opinion and is hardly innovated, even you have to admit that X's plot is more Hollywood than Tolstoy ;)

Quote:

On the topic:
--------------------------------

The vision for final fantasy is a groundbreaking, blockbuster, mega-event, big budget computer entertainment experience that redefines the boundaries for gameplay and raises the bar on tech. This is no better exemplified with the first installment, FFI having unrivaled battle animations and arguably the first RPG to show your lineup on one side of the screen. Since the beginning, making 3D games on the NES, Squaresoft has always been about top graphics and top gameplay. Final Fantasy XII, the last entry in the series, embodies this vision on all fronts.

Here's where I disagree, cause I don't see FF meaning any of these things. Groundbreaking and computer entertainment yes but none of the other. You are describing a movie more than a game series in my mind. That is not what FF is to me and though its a direction I know Sakaguchi pushed the series into, I felt when he was in charge their was still an artistic quality about the products that is lacking in today's titles.

We will have to disagree cause I know already we will never convince each other. ;)

Quote:

For this reason I cannot possibly suggest that Square Enix has lost its vision. As far as the fanbase goes, the only problem placating a multi-generational army of fans that's been built up over the last 20 years, is how little the last game, FFXII resembled the style of the earlier ones. Although it was a game lacking of the FF "feel", I don't think anyone could doubt that it represented a massive contribution to the gaming artform.

They have lost their ability to stand up for their products and fanbase. Though XII is the most critically acclaimed FF in the series, its disliked by the fanbase, especially the Japanese fanbase and has since gone out of their way to present XIII as being nothing like XII (even saying so) and will be more like X. A game that is not as widely critically acclaimed but is the Japanese audiances favorite title in the series. They even let Matsuno go without saying why. It bothers me that you would create something and not stand by it when the fans get finnicky. Sakaguchi at least stood by his flop, even if it cost him everything. Hell, The World Ends with You has done very well in the West but because the Japanese audience disliked it, President Wada has now implemented rules saying he will fire people if they don't make successful games. SE is now a buisness and has lost its artistic soul in my opinion.

Quote:

I have faith in Toriyama because looking at his resume, events in FFVII, director FFX, X-2, and Revenant Wings, it's clear he at least knows how to make fun games, and is good at it.

I can't share your optimism cause I don't feel fondly about three of those titles and have yet to play the fourth (RW). His resume does not change my feelings about the future. I'm still willing to give him a shot though.

Quote:

Sakaguchi should no longer be carried as the standardbearer for what the FF series originally was. It's becoming clear through interviews, especially with the developers for III and IV DS, that he was not in a development role in the original titles. There is no better evidence than the games that he has produced since leaving Square: Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon were both panned as unfulfilled, tedious, last-generation games awkwardly on a new console. ASH for the DS had been universally panned as just a bad game. He's 0 for 3, with his 4th game (Cry On) being cancelled due to "the economy". Even with heavy hitters like Akira Toriyama, Hitoshi Sakimoto and Nobuo Uematsu, failing to produce quality material puts his reputation in question.

First, I would take the interviews with a grain of salt. I'm not sure if you have noticed but SE has been sytematically remving Sakaguchi from the FF series. He is not even listed anymore in the original staff credits for the ports and remakes. Apparently, the original FFV didn't have a director... This is not surprisng cause the Japanese culture is all about saving face and lets face it, Sakaguchi did bankrupt Square with the FF movie, though he did more damage when he stepped down as VP.

I've read quite a few interviews concerning III and IV and have never heard anything negative about Sakaguchi, they just don't mention him. Cause SE would like us to forget about him. I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I did find it disturbing he's no longer credited in the games we know he worked on. Its weird that years later, SE would admit an employee that is no longer in good standing with the company would state he had little to do with former titles. He first became their scapegoat and now he's being erased from their history. As a history lover, you should understand this isn't too far fetched. Its all about politics.

As for Mistwalker's games, I find it funny that they have not done well critically but I don't know anyone who really hates them. The games fanbases are close to FF fantatical. I find it hard to believe Blue Dragon did poorly seeing as its a TV show, Toy line, has a sequel in the works... The main complaints I hear about his titles is their lack of innovation in the gameplay department and bit of "borrowing" from earlier titles. (LO Twins anyone?) yet most reviews I've read say these titles nothing but positive things. He also has the burden of having a lot of expectations on his shoulder and the fact is, Sakaguchi is not that talented. I said before that Sakaguchi is a "balancer" he has the ability to take people's talents and work them into the best outcome. He's only as good as his team and Ito is the man who brought gameplay innvoation into the FF series. Sakaguchi is not always successful but who is? Certainly not SE whose "system selling power" legacy has dwindled considerably in the last 8 years.

I don't know anyone who even cares about XIII, not even FF fans seem to care anymore. Ten years ago, most gaming mags would die to get a bit of info on the next FF or Square title but in recent years, SE is lucky to get a footnote and it usally has a bit of sarcastic wit instead of abated breath of things to come. Has there even been a high profile JRPG in the last few years? The kind that everyone talks about and is obsessing over months after its release, like they did in the PS1 era? No. Maybe Persona 3 but that's more about the title coming out of nowhere and being successful despite little PR. Its more cult hit than mainstream smash hit.

SE's biggest hits in the last few years have been ports of successful titles, remakes of succesful titles, and a fighting game that has a collection of characters from successful titles. I feel SE has seen their "Golden Age" and while fans have moved on, SE still thinks they have the same influence they did ten years ago. The media and even part of the fanbase consider them a sell-out and a joke. Its reaching the point the company is having a backlash from its former supporters.

I don't completely blame SE, part of this is just the fact that SE's specialty is no longer a major contender in the gaming market nowadays. I don't think SE realized that RPGs were a fad in the gaming community and that's why they were always hits. The market is now saturated and the community has moved onto the next big thing (like they did with platforming and fighting games in the early to mid 90's). Its not that RPGs no longer sell, but SE should not expect the same level of prosperity as they recieved in the late 90's. It seems as though if a title doesn't become an overwhelming smash hit, its deemed a failure. They have become like Disney in the aftermath of the Lion King phenomena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

Bureaucracy chased away whatever talent was left guiding the franchise, including Sakaguchi and Matsuno, while playing up the influence of hacks like Nomura. I'll definitely take Lost Odyssey over what FFXIII is shaping up to be.

I agree, I feel Square's success has ruined the company and destroyed the original creative spirit it once had. It still has talented people working there but I'm very skeptical SE will ever reclaim the throne that Square had in the late 90's. Especially since anyone who has talent seems to jump ship. I can't fathom why SE would let Matsuno go.

dude, conciseness is a virtue!

a) How does SE not stand by their games? All I've heard from the FFXII team and Wada is how proud they are of how the game has done commercially and critically. What are you talking about?

b) How has SE lost its artistic soul when you have constantly praised the artistic qualities of the latest game in the series? The glaring contradictions in your premises are confusing!

c) All I said is that Toriyama knows how to make fun games. The min-games and in-story-minigames in VII added fun variety. Say what you want about X, but CTB was interesting and fun (despite obvious party-switch-to-weakness-target mechanics). X-2, while widely panned for its girl power theme (I won't play it) has received universal praise for its battle system. RW is a fun game I love to just sit down and play.

d) Some interviews were before he left the company. One such was when Kitase was asked if he would remake FFIV, he said you'd have to ask Hiromichi Tanaka, as he directed that one. Tanaka was tapped to direct FFXI, because it was supposed to be a classic FF world, and he was responsible for those early FF games. This is exemplified by his director and executive role in the remakes of FFIII and IV, which he was attributed to having directed them originally. In one article, he describes coming up with the world of swords and sorcery that was the basis for the first FF's along with Koichi Ishi, along with whom the 2 went on to create the Seiken Densetsu series. Akitoshi Kawazu has repeatedly been attributed to directing FFII by others and himself, and the similarities to the SaGa series are apparent. There are no reasons to assume Sakaguchi was in any creative or developmental responisibilities in those games other than the title. American Pseudo-FF-purists (the cliche organization insisting IV and VI are the best) have falsly attributed him as an icon, when the people who came to replace him (Kitase, Nomura, Nojima), filled in roles he himself never fulfilled. To add even more irony, one of the 2 documented times he had creative input was FFVII! The evil behemoth despised by the same fans who idolize him! It's hilarious! It's nonsense!

d) Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are the RPG-equivalents of HALO - mediocre games which gain some notoriety for the mere fact that they are 360 exclusives. ASH, on the other hand, has just been slammed from all angles, and that has (IMO) one of the top video game composers in the industry right now.

e) You don't know anyone interested in XIII? Really? Go to any website showing a video, look at the comments from ppl who are stoked. All my XBOX friends freaked when they heard it's coming to their platform. Not to mention that for someone so uninterested in the title, you seem to contribute and read the XIII forums alot. Very interesting..... *chin-rubbing*

And don't tell me magazine buzz isn't what it once was, 1) the game isn't anywhere near completion! and 2) every new picture, every now motion cap, every new detail to come out is covered by famitsu, and I've seen more coverage alot in American mags.

In the words of a great man, "I find your lack of Faith disturbing." Well, just poorly supported and contradictory. Speaking of which, sorry for contradicting my "conciseness is a virtue" thingy. You just leave so much to be answered.
01-14-2009, 09:12 AM
Wolf Kanno

Its been a very long day and its the beginning of a very long week for me so I will just add my :twocents: real fast. I am sorry for misspelling and grammar but its 2am here and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

dude, conciseness is a virtue!

I rant, you should be lucky I at least try to follow proper grammar and spelling. :p

Quote:

a) How does SE not stand by their games? All I've heard from the FFXII team and Wada is how proud they are of how the game has done commercially and critically. What are you talking about?

The article I posted about Wada, is actually in relation to the poor sales of The World Ends With You. One of the most innovative titles to come out of SE since its inception. The game did terrible in Japan, though it has apparently done well in every where else.

I guess I should rephrase this statement, the teams care but Wada only see's the numbers it seems. :(

Quote:

b) How has SE lost its artistic soul when you have constantly praised the artistic qualities of the latest game in the series? The glaring contradictions in your premises are confusing!

Matsuno team has done a wonderful job, Division 1 did good by The World Ends With You, and I hope by the gods that Sigma Harmonics does in fact see its way over here, but the Compilation has been crap since day one imo. I blame it on the very fact that SE is trying to rewrite the game, not for the sake of story but as a means to create more sequels. Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus are great offenders. The thing that ticks me off is that it wouldn't be hard to do it right.

Many of the FF sequels have been pretty bad except for the Ivalice games, but the team had the foresight to set their game up for the possibility for sequels, mostly cause XII was a prequel to begin with...

Quote:

c) All I said is that Toriyama knows how to make fun games. The min-games and in-story-minigames in VII added fun variety. Say what you want about X, but CTB was interesting and fun (despite obvious party-switch-to-weakness-target mechanics). X-2, while widely panned for its girl power theme (I won't play it) has received universal praise for its battle system. RW is a fun game I love to just sit down and play.

The mini-games are fun in VII, I will admit. I can't make comment on X but I will stand by my past arguments (and even your comment seems to agree with me though you're willing to forgive more than me ;)), X-2's is overrated and has several flaws, its counted good cause it was the highlight of a game very few wanted (at least the version we got). I cannot say anything about RW, though truth be told I want to play it. Course, I've heard the story is not very Matsuno...

Quote:

d) Some interviews were before he left the company. One such was when Kitase was asked if he would remake FFIV, he said you'd have to ask Hiromichi Tanaka, as he directed that one. Tanaka was tapped to direct FFXI, because it was supposed to be a classic FF world, and he was responsible for those early FF games. This is exemplified by his director and executive role in the remakes of FFIII and IV, which he was attributed to having directed them originally. In one article, he describes coming up with the world of swords and sorcery that was the basis for the first FF's along with Koichi Ishi, along with whom the 2 went on to create the Seiken Densetsu series. Akitoshi Kawazu has repeatedly been attributed to directing FFII by others and himself, and the similarities to the SaGa series are apparent.

Sakaguchi is credited as a Designer in the original titles, reading around on the net, it seems he is not actually attributed to directing but a director is never mentioned. Tanaka and I believe Ishi are credited as scenario writers but not designers. I also don't see how Kitase would know about the development of titles that were made before he officially joined. Tanaka is commonly cited as Co-designer along with Sakeguchi in regards of III and IV.

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There are no reasons to assume Sakaguchi was in any creative or developmental responisibilities in those games other than the title. American Pseudo-FF-purists (the cliche organization insisting IV and VI are the best) have falsly attributed him as an icon, when the people who came to replace him (Kitase, Nomura, Nojima), filled in roles he himself never fulfilled. To add even more irony, one of the 2 documented times he had creative input was FFVII! The evil behemoth despised by the same fans who idolize him! It's hilarious! It's nonsense!

The amusing thing about this is how you "assume" Sakaguchi had no creative control though your evidence involves people be asked what they personally gave to the project. I also don't remember any remakes being announced for IV before Sakaguchi left.

You also admit to a bias against him due to obnoxious fanboys who insist he is a "god and the father of FF" and use it as a means to demean your favorite games. In the end you are just adding to the idea of "erasing Sakaguchi from the story". I'm not saying he single handedly programmed, wrote, composed, and generally willed the FF series into being but I hardly believe that a man who has been credited for so many title did nothing and still got credit for it. That's unrealistic and I feel your bias is blinding your better judgement (the irony of me saying this to you is astounding ;)).

Square (and Squenix for the technical people) has not even mentioned the man once since he left in 2004. The last time anyone from any developement team mentioned him was the XII staff in an interview back in 2004. The fact that the media never asked about his departure in great detail makes me feel SE may have told the media it was a taboo subject. Course this all specualtion and I am not really putting this out for evidence but just a hypothetical discussion.

Bolivar, I generally respect your opinion and look forward to your thoughts but I'm finding it hard to see merit in your opinion on this, due to your personal bias in regards to this topic concerning Sakaguchi.

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d) Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are the RPG-equivalents of HALO - mediocre games which gain some notoriety for the mere fact that they are 360 exclusives. ASH, on the other hand, has just been slammed from all angles, and that has (IMO) one of the top video game composers in the industry right now.

Nobuo doesn't mean "must buy" and your statement sound more like your personal opinion rather than the general view of the gaming community. I know the critics are not wild about his titles but they all scored pretty well, considering they only had Sakaguchi's name on them. Still, I find in most forums I lurk in and people I talk to that his games are actually pretty good. Lost Odyssey being considered an underappreciated gem of a title.

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e) You don't know anyone interested in XIII? Really? Go to any website showing a video, look at the comments from ppl who are stoked. All my XBOX friends freaked when they heard it's coming to their platform. Not to mention that for someone so uninterested in the title, you seem to contribute and read the XIII forums alot. Very interesting..... *chin-rubbing*

I did, most were interested about... 2 years ago from the threads and forums I visited. Like XII, the long development time is making people lose interest. I also don't know too many people happy with the multi-platform jump but that's another topic entirely. Most people I talk to, in real life or online, are not terribly excited for it.

The XIII forums get a few new threads when information finally appears but the threads die pretty quickly with only a few posts. I post in there cause I enjoy specualtion and because my opinion of XIII is still undecided though I choose to speak on my default view of pessimism and skepticism. I find it amusing that someone who doesn't really care (me) has put more effort into discussing the title than someone who says they actually are looking forward to it (you) ;)

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And don't tell me magazine buzz isn't what it once was, 1) the game isn't anywhere near completion! and 2) every new picture, every now motion cap, every new detail to come out is covered by famitsu, and I've seen more coverage alot in American mags.

I've seen little in American mags, a picture here and there with a small print about a demo or something being released... but the game hasn't had a real article in over a year and we've seen more info in the last few months and not a damn person has covered it. Hell, Dissidia was released last month and the last time it was mentioned was months ago when most of the mags talked about the TGS show. SE doesn''t sell magazines anymore, but then another factor to remember is that internet news is far more popular. Still, I read 3 year old interviews concerning the project tonight, and most of it was new information. Like Noctis' design not being final for Versus and the role the Crystal plays in the world of XIII. Most sites didn't seem to have this information and the source was credible (Famitsu interviews).

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In the words of a great man, "I find your lack of Faith disturbing." Well, just poorly supported and contradictory. Speaking of which, sorry for contradicting my "conciseness is a virtue" thingy. You just leave so much to be answered.

I try my best to entertain you ;)

I would leave you with a short story about blind optimism but instead I will leave you a quote by President Theodore Roosevelt:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

I believe this is something that should be applied to anything you love, so excuse the political tone. I just feel that standing by unquestionably to something is wrong, and I do not see my criticism to be merely a lack of faith but rather my duty as a fan. Perhaps I am wrong and just misguided and bias but, my thoughts allow those who are not to see a new light on the subject and determine for themselves the truth buried under the muck of fanatisicm and jaded perspective. For this reason, even if I am wrong, I accomplished what I had set out to do.
01-14-2009, 08:47 PM
Bolivar

^ Dude, first of all if you feel you have to fulfill a "duty" as a fan, you're putting way too much effort into it. I check up on and buy games I find interesting, play them, if they're good I like them for the reasons they are, and if it's bad I move on. I don't stand by SE unquestionably, I could go down the list of things I don't like, but I choose not to spend my time complaining about video games on the internet because it's not my stizzyle (that's style).

I again ask how you can say SE has lost their artistic soul when in your last post for cryin' out loud, you admit there's plenty of games they've released recently that have artistic values. Even their thinly veiled attempts to milk franchises, remakes of Dragon Quest IV, V, VI and Final Fantasy III and IV, have great artistic qualities to them, in the fashion they're remade.

As far as Wada and his cut-throat business practices, that's just him being a CEO, trying to be a good businessman. I'm not defending him blindly, it scared the crap out of me when he suggested they start making western style games, but you have to understand that the company needs to stay afloat, or they won't be making any games at all.

Also, the article you posted said nothing about The World Ends with you, and seems more like a biased rant, as evidenced by the exhaustive diatribes on Atushi Inaba and Okami.

And I'm not blinded in bias against Sakaguchi. Hell, FFIX might be my favorite game in the series, and he had almost everything to do with that on the scenario and concept side of things. But when it comes to the original 6 Nintendo games, there isn't much evidence he had a whole lot to do with it. You're wrong, Tanaka has been credited for game design. What Sakaguchi has done is coordinated development by choosing skilled team members and laying out certain goals.

It's rediculous for you to call me out on merit, when all I did was list several pieces of evidence to support my point (that's what a sound argument is). You, on the other hand, have offered nothing but speculation that he must have had something to do with it in order to be credited. Also, your facts are wrong again, Kitase's "Final Fantasy Adventure" was released the same year as "Final Fantasy IV". And he could have heard about who directed it in a million different ways, please don't play dumb.

Please don't go on with your red-herring logical fallacies about "blind optimism", I've never said anything to warrant that. It just so happens that I enjoyed FFXII and Dragon Quest VIII thoroughly, I loved FFIII DS, Revenant Wings was a pleasure to sit down and playthrough, I have great respect for FFIV DS, TA2, and the War of the Lions port. And right now I'm playing through Dragon Quest IV DS and having a blast as I approach the end of the game. Is it wrong for me to have optimism about a publisher that has produced so many great games, in the last few years especially, that I have enjoyed? Is there really something wrong with that?

From the sound of things, they've released plenty of games recently that you yourself have enjoyed, so I ask again, what's the beef?
01-15-2009, 12:15 AM
Wolf Kanno

First, I'm sorry for the long tiraded rant

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ Dude, first of all if you feel you have to fulfill a "duty" as a fan, you're putting way too much effort into it. I check up on and buy games I find interesting, play them, if they're good I like them for the reasons they are, and if it's bad I move on. I don't stand by SE unquestionably, I could go down the list of things I don't like, but I choose not to spend my time complaining about video games on the internet because it's not my stizzyle (that's style).

I'm sorry but you seem to be the first to come and stand by SE whenever they do something so I just wrongly assumed.

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I again ask how you can say SE has lost their artistic soul when in your last post for cryin' out loud, you admit there's plenty of games they've released recently that have artistic values. Even their thinly veiled attempts to milk franchises, remakes of Dragon Quest IV, V, VI and Final Fantasy III and IV, have great artistic qualities to them, in the fashion they're remade.

It's easy to go back and remake something, but then again you may have a point. I am looking more for originality though and its been scarce until very recently. This is more about Wada and where he wants to take SE than the teams though.

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As far as Wada and his cut-throat business practices, that's just him being a CEO, trying to be a good businessman. I'm not defending him blindly, it scared the crap out of me when he suggested they start making western style games, but you have to understand that the company needs to stay afloat, or they won't be making any games at all.

I understand the business applications but that is the wrong message to send to people. Its one thing to say it to your employee's but to announce it to the public seems downright stupid.

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Also, the article you posted said nothing about The World Ends with you, and seems more like a biased rant, as evidenced by the exhaustive diatribes on Atushi Inaba and Okami.

I'm still looking for the actual reference that connects it. I read it here on the forums actually... I will try to get back to you. :p

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And I'm not blinded in bias against Sakaguchi. Hell, FFIX might be my favorite game in the series, and he had almost everything to do with that on the scenario and concept side of things. But when it comes to the original 6 Nintendo games, there isn't much evidence he had a whole lot to do with it. You're wrong, Tanaka has been credited for game design. What Sakaguchi has done is coordinated development by choosing skilled team members and laying out certain goals.

When you make statements like this...

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There are no reasons to assume Sakaguchi was in any creative or developmental responisibilities in those games other than the title. American Pseudo-FF-purists (the cliche organization insisting IV and VI are the best) have falsly attributed him as an icon, when the people who came to replace him (Kitase, Nomura, Nojima), filled in roles he himself never fulfilled. To add even more irony, one of the 2 documented times he had creative input was FFVII! The evil behemoth despised by the same fans who idolize him! It's hilarious! It's nonsense!

How am I suppose to take such statements when you decry a faction of fans you have time and time again fought with in the forums? If this was not meant to speak of a personal motive of discrediting Sakaguchi than what is this statement?

Anyway, I have yet to see anywhere where Tanaka has been the sole credit for game design and directing in IV on the web or in publication, I have yet to see an interview with the team that even really talks about IV's development back in the day. All I have to go on is your speculations concerning interviews about the title. I am not going to say Sakaguchi is the sole reason the game is there nor am I denying that Tanaka had a significant role in the development. All I am saying is that I feel you are reducing Sakaguchi's role without strong evidence.

The last statement is something I've been saying from the beginning of this thread. I never said Sakaguchi was the full creative force but his role was one in which he chose the team and guided them. He may not have written the titles or came up with the battle system, but he was the one who oversaw their development and told them where to go. Hence "vision" in the title. His interviews concerning VII has him stating that he has pushed the series into a more storytelling, cincematic direction and how VII was the first major leap to achieving this goal. In interviews concerning X, he talked about always pushing the team to try new things.

I don't know about you but I feel his role was important.

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It's rediculous for you to call me out on merit, when all I did was list several pieces of evidence to support my point (that's what a sound argument is). You, on the other hand, have offered nothing but speculation that he must have had something to do with it in order to be credited. Also, your facts are wrong again, Kitase's "Final Fantasy Adventure" was released the same year as "Final Fantasy IV". And he could have heard about who directed it in a million different ways, please don't play dumb.

You listed nothing as evidence, no links or what not, just statements you heard or read somehwere and you are criticizing my credibility? I double checked and I will retract my statement about Kitase not working for Square back then but him saying Tanaka was the director doesn't prove that Sakaguchi had little influence on the project. I still find the whole circumstances for the statement to be fishy since I don't see why Kitase would be asked to direct a remake of a game he had no real part of.

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Please don't go on with your red-herring logical fallacies about "blind optimism", I've never said anything to warrant that. It just so happens that I enjoyed FFXII and Dragon Quest VIII thoroughly, I loved FFIII DS, Revenant Wings was a pleasure to sit down and playthrough, I have great respect for FFIV DS, TA2, and the War of the Lions port. And right now I'm playing through Dragon Quest IV DS and having a blast as I approach the end of the game. Is it wrong for me to have optimism about a publisher that has produced so many great games, in the last few years especially, that I have enjoyed? Is there really something wrong with that?

From the sound of things, they've released plenty of games recently that you yourself have enjoyed, so I ask again, what's the beef?

This comes more down to personal taste and opinion so my statement may have been out of line but then again, asking me where my faith is without knowing my perspective is not any better. In the SNES and PS1 era Square consistently blew me away with their titles. They did not so in the PS2 era (at least for me) and looking at the new generation, I have not been impressed except for the most obscure side projects and Matsuno's Ivalice Team.

Basically, I don't feel SE is worth my money cause in 9 years they have created maybe three titles I truly love. In the PS1 generation, I practically own everything they did and all but a few were incredible experiences.

I don't count the ports or remakes like you do cause it seems silly to give kudos to a company for bringing out a past success. It would be like forgiving George Lucas for the Prequels and Indy 4 just because he announced tomorrow that he's re-releasing the original un-edited Star Wars trilogy in theaters.

My problem is that since the introduction of the PS2, I have played maybe one (technically two, but I have never played FFIII until the DS remake) game by SE that felt like a true, quality, Square title and that was XII. Everything else has felt to me like a movie with some gameplay slapped onto it. The gameplay is rarely good imo. The stories have all fallen short as well. I just feel that SE has been getting progressively worst as the years go by. The high points have been ports and remakes.

Yes, sometimes something comes by that impresses me but XII has still been the only title to really impress me, cause going through it, I was amazed that someone at Squenix could make them like they use to. Matsuno is gone though... His team still does well but I have always thought of them separately from the rest of the SE development teams, most likely cause its obvious from their titles that they are not just good designers but they are fans themselves. I'm not too far into TA2 and though I like the game so far, I do feel something is missing from it though :sad:.

I just feel that SE no longer has anyone who realizes how to make a game with excellent gameplay with an incredible story anymore. Its either one or the other but I rarely see both in one title anymore. I just have not been happy with the direction Kitase and Nomura have been taking the series in the last four years.
01-15-2009, 04:51 PM
Bolivar

^ I understand that your taste may preclude you from optimism, but I still feel you're exaggerating, contradicting yourself, and being overly harsh. You say you feel they no longer have anyone who realizes how to make a game with excellent gameplay with an incredible story anymore - yet I think both of us would agree FFXII had both.

I don't understand how you can be unhappy with the direction Kitase and Nomura have taken the series when they were not involved with the last two main installments, and only one of the two before that. I guess you could say they've gone too far making the series about compilations, but again, I think we would agree that the Ivalice Alliance, which has been intended as a compilation since the term was coined, has produced various titles of quality material.

Have you played Dragon Quest VIII? Because that stands out most to me when I think of SE during the PS2 era, and (i know this may be a minority opinion), but I felt like it was the pinnacle of Japanese RPG's, being able to take a massive and colorful world of adventure and giving it full life, the Voice Acting in the NA version giving life to the regional dialects frequently used in the series, and the music was simply breathtaking.

I do have to give remakes credit(I never said ports), because although you have an original source material, you still have to build a game from the ground up, and that could go in any number of directions, but I feel SE not only gave them a new form, but really pulled it off with some really quality titles. (BTW, if Lucas were to release the un-edited Star War trilogy, I would say that Lucasfilms was heading in a better direction.) <- But even that's not a fair comparison to a remake of a game.

But yeah, SE is one of my favorite publishers and they've faithfully maintained that over the last few years. Also, I'm pretty sure going back we could definately find from the threads more than 3 titles you truly loved from the last 9 years, That seems like a crazy exaggeration., I can already think of FFXII and Tactics Advance, apparently you like The world ends with you and at least like TA2. I think you should give it up to the III and IV DS remakes as well, they're so far ahead of the original versions, they might as well be new games.
01-15-2009, 08:08 PM
hhr1dluv

At first, I found this thread to be somewhat depressing. I worried that Wolf would make me concerned that all future games put out by Square would be god awful and they'd no longer make me happy. :cry:

However, I've since decided that Wolf and I seem to have almost completely opposing opinions. X, VII, and X-2 are still my favorites in the series, and I've actually played a fair amount of all the main line titles (minus XI) at this point. With the exception of V, I find the early Final Fantasies, frankly, to be somewhat boring. So, if Square has moved away from that, then I'm glad.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think that the older FFs are bad titles by any means. They are just, in my opinion, rather dry, arduous, and sometimes, unfortunately, lacking heart. Now, I feel that someone will pop in and say "heart = sappy and stupid melodrama is you're saying that the early FFs lack heart," which may be true. But still, it's how I feel.

Anyway, as for my other opinions about present-day Squeenix, I enjoyed XII, though still not as much as X, VII, X-2, or even VIII (from what I played). I haven't played a lot of the Ivalice Alliance yet, so I can't pass judgment there. However, I do agree with Wolf that the Compilation is mostly terrible. Dirge of Cerberus is the only FF-related game that Square has made that I did not enjoy at all. As for Crisis Core, I had a fair amount of fun playing it, though I agree with Wolf that the introduction of certain characters (like Genesis) is unnecessary and stupid. But then, FF VII sells, and in today's economy, I can understand why Squeenix is so shamelessly milking this franchise. It doesn't really bother me that much.

Overall, I still have faith in Square. I still have fun with their games, though I will admit that sometimes they rely far too much on cutscenes. But hey, I shouldn't complain about that, as I'm sure that I'm the type of gamer that they're catering to when they make games like that. :p

I've since come to this conclusion:
If Wolf likes a Square product -- I might like it.
If Wolf dislikes/abhors a Square product -- I might dislike it, or I might love the bejeezus out of it. :D
01-16-2009, 10:28 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ I understand that your taste may preclude you from optimism, but I still feel you're exaggerating, contradicting yourself, and being overly harsh. You say you feel they no longer have anyone who realizes how to make a game with excellent gameplay with an incredible story anymore - yet I think both of us would agree FFXII had both.

I would agree and it only took them 6 years to finally do it. I'm still just annoyed by the very long dry spell of products. Thinking upon it, I feel partly my "hypocrisy" comes from starting this thread before I got TA2 and World Ends With You.

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I don't understand how you can be unhappy with the direction Kitase and Nomura have taken the series when they were not involved with the last two main installments, and only one of the two before that. I guess you could say they've gone too far making the series about compilations, but again, I think we would agree that the Ivalice Alliance, which has been intended as a compilation since the term was coined, has produced various titles of quality material.

Its easy not to like Kitase and Nomura cause I feel their style is visually based and geared for more of a mainstream audiance. I always feel that gameplay suffers and always feels very separate to everything else. Its like I'm switching off between a game and a movie and it just doesn't work for me. VI and VII showed the early warning signs but it wasn't til VIII and X it became obvious to me. I don't feel like they really wanted to make games then, they wanted to make movies.

My problem, is that I feel the direction they chose to go is not the way to make something truly magnificent. Games have the ability to tell a story through gameplay. You have played MGS3 and 4 so you may understand what I'm talking about. This was a direction I felt Square was moving towards with VI, VII, and IX. I feel VIII and X felt short and even backtracked unnecessarily, I'm willing to forgive VIII cause the game did so many other things but X repeated many of those mistakes and it was a later title so its much more difficult for me to forgive. Overall, I'm just disappointed that they moved away from the direction I thought they were going, especially when I play games like Ico, MGS3, and Persona 3 that show me what that direction would have looked like.

I do agree that the Ivalice team seems to be doing right, but I am still fairly early in TA2 so its hard for me to make a real judgment call on the title. I have yet to play RW so my only experience is with XII and Matsuno was a major factor in the project until a year before its release. To be honest, I don't have enough real information to make a valid opinion. For all I know, Matsuno leaving may have crippled the teams "vision of Ivalice" I really hope not; cause Ivalice was something I always wanted to be expanded on.

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Have you played Dragon Quest VIII? Because that stands out most to me when I think of SE during the PS2 era, and (i know this may be a minority opinion), but I felt like it was the pinnacle of Japanese RPG's, being able to take a massive and colorful world of adventure and giving it full life, the Voice Acting in the NA version giving life to the regional dialects frequently used in the series, and the music was simply breathtaking.

I have not played DQVIII except for a demo (and lets face it, Square/SE don't exactly have a good track record about demos) but I am well versed in the DQ series with I, III, and VII being top faves. I have not given the game a go but I am still burnt out on DQVII... I put 140+ hours into that thing and I am hardly close to absolute completion though I have finished the plot. Still, I have a love/hate relationship with the DQ series. Hence the reason for being lazy about playing VIII. :eep:

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I do have to give remakes credit(I never said ports), because although you have an original source material, you still have to build a game from the ground up, and that could go in any number of directions, but I feel SE not only gave them a new form, but really pulled it off with some really quality titles. (BTW, if Lucas were to release the un-edited Star War trilogy, I would say that Lucasfilms was heading in a better direction.) <- But even that's not a fair comparison to a remake of a game.

The Luca anology is more about the ports and that speaks more about how the ports have been the highligh of the SE lineup until recently. I never played FFIII before the DS so its hard for me to say how different it really is. I'm not a person who is really impressed with visuals and I feel had it been a more direct port, I still would have loved the hell out of it. Though III has that obnoxious Wi-fi :skull::skull::skull::skull::skull::skull::skull::skull:... I want Onion Knights damn it! :mad2:

I will admit that the IV remake was something to behold. Because I felt the changes to the game were much more significant than III's and even the tacked on Wyatt part offers the ability to finally have a real diversion. It truly was the incarnation of the title I imagined as I played it back in Middle School. SE did do a good job but I feel its hard to give them great kudos for "remaking the wheel" so to speak. Granted, I should be grateful they didn't screw it up. Yet, its not the same as what I am getting at. I guess the remake of IV is something I didn't want just yet and its why I'm less appreciative than I should be.

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But yeah, SE is one of my favorite publishers and they've faithfully maintained that over the last few years. Also, I'm pretty sure going back we could definately find from the threads more than 3 titles you truly loved from the last 9 years, That seems like a crazy exaggeration., I can already think of FFXII and Tactics Advance, apparently you like The world ends with you and at least like TA2. I think you should give it up to the III and IV DS remakes as well, they're so far ahead of the original versions, they might as well be new games.

As I said, I'm just starting on both titles and its hard to say how I will feel in the end. I can already tell I may not like The World Ends with You's story. The cast is pretty unlikable but its the concept and gameplay that fascinate me. TA2 is amusing cause its a combination of TA and XII. I have a harder time putting it down than The Wolrd Ends With You, but I'm hoping the story gets a bit darker. I've always enjoyed the dark and serious tone of Matsuno's earlier works and I am hoping the Ivalice Team can fulfill.

Three might be an exagerration it might be more like five but I doubt you could name too many. The Mana series is all but dead and FM4 wasn't as good as I hoped; though I should give it another chance. KH was an amusing experiment but it doesn't rank in my top ten list of good Square franchises.

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Originally Posted by hhr1dluv

At first, I found this thread to be somewhat depressing. I worried that Wolf would make me concerned that all future games put out by Square would be god awful and they'd no longer make me happy. :cry:

Luv, I'm hardly that influential ad you should know by now to take my words and opinion with a grain of salt. ;)

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However, I've since decided that Wolf and I seem to have almost completely opposing opinions. X, VII, and X-2 are still my favorites in the series, and I've actually played a fair amount of all the main line titles (minus XI) at this point. With the exception of V, I find the early Final Fantasies, frankly, to be somewhat boring. So, if Square has moved away from that, then I'm glad.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think that the older FFs are bad titles by any means. They are just, in my opinion, rather dry, arduous, and sometimes, unfortunately, lacking heart. Now, I feel that someone will pop in and say "heart = sappy and stupid melodrama is you're saying that the early FFs lack heart," which may be true. But still, it's how I feel.

We will just agree to disagree, your second paragraph brings up points concerning why I dislike the later titles stories as well as a few plot holes and WTF? moments but we each have our own taste and I am not saying that SE needs to go back to the "old ways" exactly. I don't think I would be happy if SE released a game like FFVI right now cause to me, it would seem counter progressive. Still, we have our own opinions and I would like to say again that my goal is not to convince you that the game you like suck.

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Anyway, as for my other opinions about present-day Squeenix, I enjoyed XII, though still not as much as X, VII, X-2, or even VIII (from what I played). I haven't played a lot of the Ivalice Alliance yet, so I can't pass judgment there. However, I do agree with Wolf that the Compilation is mostly terrible. Dirge of Cerberus is the only FF-related game that Square has made that I did not enjoy at all. As for Crisis Core, I had a fair amount of fun playing it, though I agree with Wolf that the introduction of certain characters (like Genesis) is unnecessary and stupid. But then, FF VII sells, and in today's economy, I can understand why Squeenix is so shamelessly milking this franchise. It doesn't really bother me that much.

It only bothers me cause the quality is horrible yet fans still eat it up like it was Filet Mignon. They retcon the plot for the sake of adding new elements, and the only thing the new elements bring to the table is the ability to make another sequel or spin-off. I always knew VII would be milked eventually. It was obvious back in day when it first came out when you consider Cloud makes an appearance in three other Square titles in the PS1 era. I just didn't think SE would blatantly destroy the source material when doing it. What bother me the most is the wasted potential. Crisis Core and Advent Children could have both been awesome but settled for flashy and cheap.

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Overall, I still have faith in Square. I still have fun with their games, though I will admit that sometimes they rely far too much on cutscenes. But hey, I shouldn't complain about that, as I'm sure that I'm the type of gamer that they're catering to when they make games like that. :p

I feel we all expect something different from FF. For me, I see some games have the ability to become art, and FF had a chance but settled for being a mainstram game series. My problem with SE is like the Compilation, I feel the potential is being wasted. :(

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I've since come to this conclusion:
If Wolf likes a Square product -- I might like it.
If Wolf dislikes/abhors a Square product -- I might dislike it, or I might love the bejeezus out of it. :D

I should send you a list of my likes and dislikes from the Square/Squenix library. ;)
01-18-2009, 05:47 AM
Markus. D

If anything they're experimenting more than ever with new gameplay schemes post-FFIX.

Embrace it :3
01-18-2009, 06:39 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukasa

If anything they're experimenting more than ever with new gameplay schemes post-FFIX.

Embrace it :3

That's true, I just wish they didn't use the FF moniker. Its a sound business idea cause it raises the chances of the title selling and broadening the players perspective but something about that just seems weak to me. Like they know they can't make anything good without FF or DQ being plastered onto it.

Oh, well, if it means more experimentation then I will accept the necessary evil... :(
01-19-2009, 08:01 PM
champagne supernova

X and X-2 were very different to what preceded them. But they were both very enjoyable.

I have also been playing my way through VI. I've also played V, as well as I. I have yet to finish any of them. Why? Because I was bored with the game, didn't have any particular feelings towards the characters, and wasn't enjoying the story. So what if Kefka had basically destroyed the entire world - I really couldn't care (although VI did have one or two good moments).

Now, I am not saying that they are bad games. They are great games, for their time. But I did not play them in their time, I played them recently, and I couldn't get into it. The fact that people are able to thoroughly enjoy the FFIV remake, from a generation that did not play NES or SNES shows you how well Squenix have done in their remake.

Also, the improvement from VI to VII is unbelievable. And not just the leap from 2D to 3D (or pseudo-3D). The dialogue and the story was notched up immensely. The towns had histories, and the NPCs in those towns gave the impression of that town history. When you went through Gongaga and Corel, you were aware of how Shinra had destroyed these places. You didn't get that impression when you went through the towns in the Empire from VI.

Then one has to look at the improvement from VII to VIII. VII did have certain weak moments, especially with some of the translation, but VIII was basically flawless in its production. Yes, the story may not have been everyone's cup of tea, but the characters had a depth about them and the world had a massive background. Also the improvement in body language managed to convey the game's mood a lot better than VII's more simplified range of movements.

I still have to play IX, so I can't comment. But again, the movement from PSone to PS2 was very innovative. They were making fully 3D landscapes for the first time on a new system. They moved the game away from the swords-and-sorcery theme of IX to something you have said was completely new. The artistic nature within the game was new and interesting, and freshened up the game. And I don't care what you have to say about CTB - it actually bought a lot of thought into the bosses. Yes, it wasn't active, so it gave time to develop strategy. I also don't see what you have against the story. Tidus continued his quest to defeat Sin, knowing he would disappear. He kept it to himself, protecting Yuna from that emotion. Yuna, for most of the game, travelled with the thought that her achieving her quest would lead to her death. Her companions had to help her, knowing this. And Tidus hated his dad, because he was harsh towards him, but also because he disappeared. The scene at the end is touching in a strange way.

X-2 is a sequel, kind of like the compilation games. It wasn't aimed to be a true FF. It was designed to be fun. In my mind, it succeeded. I think the game also succeeded in illustrating how a world that had been oppressed for centuries would begin once that oppression ended. It was decent.

You yourself have highlighted the qualities of XII. I don't need to continue. And remember, Matsuno did leave roughly midway through it. The people who continued it are part of the Square team.

My point is that the Final Fantasy series has evolved through the years, and each evolution has improved it. Seriously, you yourself have admitted your dislike of X. Go play Final Fantasy I in it's original form, which Sakaguchi was heavily involved in (from what I've heard). Then go play X. Tell me which one is better.

Okay, that is a bit overboard. But do the same with VI and X. Or even VII and X. And it is not just technical limitations of the SNES that gives X the upper hand. The level of detail in the modern day Final Fantasies is exceptional.
01-20-2009, 05:34 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

X and X-2 were very different to what preceded them. But they were both very enjoyable.

I have also been playing my way through VI. I've also played V, as well as I. I have yet to finish any of them. Why? Because I was bored with the game, didn't have any particular feelings towards the characters, and wasn't enjoying the story. So what if Kefka had basically destroyed the entire world - I really couldn't care (although VI did have one or two good moments).

Now, I am not saying that they are bad games. They are great games, for their time. But I did not play them in their time, I played them recently, and I couldn't get into it. The fact that people are able to thoroughly enjoy the FFIV remake, from a generation that did not play NES or SNES shows you how well Squenix have done in their remake.

We each have our own tastes and tolerance levels. I'm not going to say you are wrong for disliking the earlier titles. Despite my stance; I'm not actually crusading for the belief that "it was better in the old days" but I do feel the later titles have their fair share of flaws in terms of story and characters. I just find it funny that people are more forgiving when later games make the same mistakes because of technical achievements. Yet, it works the other way as well since I know too many people who forgive the earlier titles for unforgivable mistakes just because it was "old and they didn't have foresight then." You can hold onto your feelings concerning the earlier titles and yes, I do feel that playing them at the time helps but not all the time and we will get to that later...

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Also, the improvement from VI to VII is unbelievable. And not just the leap from 2D to 3D (or pseudo-3D). The dialogue and the story was notched up immensely. The towns had histories, and the NPCs in those towns gave the impression of that town history. When you went through Gongaga and Corel, you were aware of how Shinra had destroyed these places. You didn't get that impression when you went through the towns in the Empire from VI.

I actually disagree with most of what you said but I'm really not in the mood to degrade this thread into the VI vs. VII debate. Its been done to death and we should all accept the fact that nothing anyone is going to say is going to change our views about this.

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Then one has to look at the improvement from VII to VIII. VII did have certain weak moments, especially with some of the translation, but VIII was basically flawless in its production. Yes, the story may not have been everyone's cup of tea, but the characters had a depth about them and the world had a massive background. Also the improvement in body language managed to convey the game's mood a lot better than VII's more simplified range of movements.

I disagree about the characters. Granted, I love VIII's cast infinitely more than VII's but I can't in good conscience say VIII's cast is well developed. Squall yes. Rinoa and Laguna to a certain extent but not close to Squall's level and the rest of the cast is pretty two dimensional in my book. I like them and I find them interesting but the game doesn't bother to go into anyone else so its difficult for me to appreciate them on the same level I did as Squall. The graphics were impressive but outside of the CGI Cutscenes, I never felt the upgrade did anything for the story or characters. I will be honest though, I am rarely impressed by graphics and I generally feel that they only help the less imaginative (I mean that generally and not as a slam to anyone)

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I still have to play IX, so I can't comment.

Do, its a great game and I feel you will understand me better when it comes to my dislike of X. XI really built upon the foundations of all the previous titles and I felt it worked really well.

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But again, the movement from PSone to PS2 was very innovative. They were making fully 3D landscapes for the first time on a new system. They moved the game away from the swords-and-sorcery theme of IX to something you have said was completely new. The artistic nature within the game was new and interesting, and freshened up the game.

The transfer wasn't as grand as most people had hoped. Despite being 3d the backgrounds are still for the most part treated as the pre-rendered kind from the PS1 days. Though it does have its moments.

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And I don't care what you have to say about CTB - it actually bought a lot of thought into the bosses. Yes, it wasn't active, so it gave time to develop strategy.

My beef with it has nothing to do with it being ATB on Wait mode, I just point it out cause its hard to grasp how people see it as an innovation. I do the same with XII cause ADB is still ATB but you get to move around but you still don't get the real benefits of being in a 3D environment.

I actually love the move to strategy, me beef was that nothing in the actual story part of the game is a major enough threat to warrant a greater strategy than, "hit it til its dead". It does get better by end game but I felt the lack of challenge diminished the gameplay side and when it finally did get good, I stopped caring. I do occasionally jump onto my end game file and battle end game and arena creatures to enjoy the battle system. I did like the concept, I just felt the execution was terrible. I only wish the fun part had been like that for most of the game. :(

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I also don't see what you have against the story. Tidus continued his quest to defeat Sin, knowing he would disappear. He kept it to himself, protecting Yuna from that emotion. Yuna, for most of the game, travelled with the thought that her achieving her quest would lead to her death. Her companions had to help her, knowing this. And Tidus hated his dad, because he was harsh towards him, but also because he disappeared. The scene at the end is touching in a strange way.

My main issue was that it was predictable and it was horribly over dramatic. The plot is a retelling of the Tale of the Yamato-no-Orochi with a bit of a Hollywood twist.

I got bored, cause once you understood the scenario (I am still trying to figure out how people missed the fact Yuna was going to sacrifice herself before the big reveal at Home) its easy to predict how everyone will react. Throw in the Rpg cliche cast of characters and it was just boring. I even had a point in the game where I started to ask myself if it was ever going to pick up. The ending is well executed but I felt the emotion was forced and thus it lost its impact for me.

I guess my main issue is that I felt X was kind of second rate and mediocre. Had it been made in the days of the 16-bit rpgs, I would probably agree with the majority that it was an excellent game but I feel RPGs have come a long way since then in terms of story and depth. When you turn around and play something like Ico and Suikoden III (two titles that were around at the same time) it really felt like X was backtracking with storytelling and characters choosing instead to rely on technology instead of innovation and good story fundamentals.

In terms of graphics and audio quality, X was a great improvement for Square and better looking than anything else on the market (except for MGS2). Yet, I felt they did a mediocre job on everything else. Especially when coming off the back seat of IX, which was a game that really defined what Square could do at the time.

Outside of the Ivalice team, I don't feel SE has been able to recapture the quality of storytelling and characters they had in the PS1 and earlier generations. I find they are constantly being outdone by other companies. Outside of XII and maybe even perhaps Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories,I feel SE has not been able to live up to the legacy they established in the PS1 generation. I'm still waiting for them to release games that surpass titles like, Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Chrono Trigger. I feel XII is a step in the right direction but that is only how one part of the company envisions and feels the genre should go.

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X-2 is a sequel, kind of like the compilation games. It wasn't aimed to be a true FF. It was designed to be fun. In my mind, it succeeded. I think the game also succeeded in illustrating how a world that had been oppressed for centuries would begin once that oppression ended. It was decent.

I felt there could have been more political strife and less poorly ripping off Macross but as you said, X-2 was designed to be fun, and I do feel the game succeeds. It was a decent game and had X borrowed more of X-2's gameplay side, I might have enjoyed its predecessor a bit more. Yet, I am strongly against the idea of making sequels for the numbered FFs as I feel it cheapens the epic impact the games held. I find it silly to believe a few weeks later the world is hit with another world shattering event that only our fearless heroes can prevent. I can't say I want FF to follow into the same trappings as comic books or movie sequels.

My main issue with X-2 is that it destroyed the few touching and interesting moments of X by retconning all of it. X really loses its impact when you know Tidus comes back in the sequel. Even if you don't get the ending yourself, just knowing that weakens the originals impact. I actually started to think less of X because of X-2's retconning.

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You yourself have highlighted the qualities of XII. I don't need to continue. And remember, Matsuno did leave roughly midway through it. The people who continued it are part of the Square team.

Hiroyuki Ito took over with the Ivalice Teams Art director to finish directing and overseeing the project. By then the main parts of the game were finished and I feel they're main focus and impact was telling the programmers to stop writing 3 extra pages of code so that one red jewel in the Dalmascan treasury would look a little shinier, you know, so they could release the game before the end of the decade. ;)

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My point is that the Final Fantasy series has evolved through the years, and each evolution has improved it.

I agree the series has always been about evolution and innovation but I feel lately, when I see many of their more big budget projects, the games are less innovated and just heavier on graphics and poorly convulated plot lines. I feel the series has been stagnating since X and though a few titles come and go that show there is still a bit of spirit left in SE something happens. Like when I read interviews with directors of upcoming games and listen to XIII's director Toriyama state this in Edge magazine when asked about whether the current generation of consoles should offer more than just a graphical update on their predecessors, he stated:

"The current generation might be percieved as merely visual leaps but the battle system now looks so realistic that any player will draw more of an emotional experience from their link with the characters: actions within the game are presented so realistically that the user feels completely in command." Edge Magazine, July 2007, page 78.

I feel this is more of the Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima route of "style over substance". His statement reflects my feelings about his last major FF title. Graphically it was nice but there was little else and I really felt it did not show the true potential of the PS2.

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Seriously, you yourself have admitted your dislike of X. Go play Final Fantasy I in it's original form, which Sakaguchi was heavily involved in (from what I've heard). Then go play X. Tell me which one is better.

Okay, that is a bit overboard. But do the same with VI and X. Or even VII and X. And it is not just technical limitations of the SNES that gives X the upper hand. The level of detail in the modern day Final Fantasies is exceptional.

I actually did... its really amusing you ask this. A few months ago, I had to play through X cause my Gf got stuck (she didn't know how to activate nodes and finally got stopped by the boss at Macalania Temple. That far with only starting stats and abilities ;)). At the time, I was playing through VII again cause it had been awhile and eventually I got her to start playing VI Advance cause I started a new file on FFVI and she watched me play. The backstory of the Figaro Bros, Cyan and the whole damn opera won her over.

I still prefer VI over both VII and X; and I still prefer VII over X. I only finished X cause my GF wanted to see the ending. Funny enough, despite being a huge X-2 fan, she found X to be boring and disappointing as well. In the end, I still feel X is the weakest title in the series. I have never considered it to be truly innovative on the same level as its predecessors and successors.

X to me is a game that proves that good technology cannot cover up poor storytelling and bad gameplay design. But this is my own personal feelings. I don't believe that true achievement can be achieved solely on technology without people who know how to utilize that technology to create a fun an engaging experience.

Ico for instance has one of the greatest stories of the PS2 generation in my opinion, it has 1/1000th of the dialogue X had and still was able to give a tearful ending and overwhelming sense of satisfaction and it did all of it with gameplay instead of heavy use of cutscenes or heavy handed melodrama. Even the MGS series, which is known for its heavy use of cutscenes, many fans would agree its strongest moments are the parts when story and gameplay intertwine.

This is why the older games still entertain and enthrall me, cause they have good fundamentals and I do find their stories and characters engaging. We probably do not agree with each other but I feel we both know through our past dialogues that we come from opposite perspectives on the subject. ;)
01-20-2009, 11:22 AM
champagne supernova

Okay, this is how I look at it. Videogames are similar to movies. They are told through a combination of dialogue, visuals and music. Now, dialogue is very important. But, just as a movie with great dialogue can fail because of poor acting, so can a game with great dialogue fail because of poor visuals. For a story to be told effectively, one has to see how the events affect the characters. As roughly 90% of our communication is done through body language, great graphics that allow the player to see these emotions increase the gaming experience.

And, again, dialogue cannot set the mood as effectively as visuals. Again, in FFVI, the only reason I knew the Empire was bad was because I was told so. Yes, what they did was bad, and as you played the game, you knew that they were bad. But, I never felt that they were bad. When I played VII, walking around through Midgar, I felt that Shinra was bad.

Again, I am not bashing VI. VII was able to achieve this because the technical limit had been raised heavily since VI. But my point is that the use of graphics elevated the game to a new level.

I feel that in a visually intensive medium such as video games, artistic style is needed to make the game more substantial. Look at Sin City. It is a great movie, and would probably have been great if they didn't make it in the style that they did. But, because they did, it was able to reinforce the game itself.

I don't watch that much anime to pick up the references you are making to X and so I cannot comment.

Now, I can guess that the reason you like IX is because it is a throwback to the earlier games, a signing off of sorts. But the thing is, Final Fantasy cannot be about swords and sorcery all the time. They needed to move in a new direction.

And, although I will admit that the opera scene in VI is awesome, what substance does it add to the story? Surely that is a prime example of style over substance...
01-21-2009, 05:54 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Okay, this is how I look at it. Videogames are similar to movies. They are told through a combination of dialogue, visuals and music. Now, dialogue is very important. But, just as a movie with great dialogue can fail because of poor acting, so can a game with great dialogue fail because of poor visuals. For a story to be told effectively, one has to see how the events affect the characters. As roughly 90% of our communication is done through body language, great graphics that allow the player to see these emotions increase the gaming experience.

I agree to a point but I don't really feel that until recently that games have come far enough to convey proper body language. I don't feel X really had it and what it did have always felt automated and or unrealistic. I blame this on Square forgetting the fundamentals of animation, something they should have learned from the Spirits Within.

A better way to understand the games is to view the 3D FFs as movies and the 2D ones as books. Its up to the player to put in the gaps that are missing due to body language. Most books don't give detail to all the body language but we can envision it when the author points out emotion and this is something the FF have done since the beginning. Even VII-IX with their limited technology still utilized this technique. The older games have the ability to be stunning but the player has to put the effort to believe in it and if one cannot because the visuals throw them off then I feel sorry that they are missing out and their ability to enjoy storytelling is a bit more limited. :(

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And, again, dialogue cannot set the mood as effectively as visuals. Again, in FFVI, the only reason I knew the Empire was bad was because I was told so. Yes, what they did was bad, and as you played the game, you knew that they were bad. But, I never felt that they were bad. When I played VII, walking around through Midgar, I felt that Shinra was bad.

I agree to apoint though music also helps which is something VI did have going for it as well as the earlier titles. Music, I find is much more important sometimes as its a medium that solely evokes human feeling. MGS is also an exception cause many of the groundbreaking moments in the titles are during codec scenes which have very limited visuals but excellent VA and musical work.

I also would like to point out it seems obvious to me the empire is evil in VI and it even shows it through visuals. The game starts with you invading a town and gunning down lightly armed resistance, you watch the soldiers and Kefka try to torch Figaro Castle, we see South Figaro under marshal law, the streets vacant with the exception of an overwhelming military force, these soldiers attack you when you confront them. We watch Celes get brutally beaten as a prisoner by the very people she once commanded (unless you're playing the GBA version). Just watching the soldiers capturing the espers and then seeing them in the Magitech laboratory under inhuman conditions. I think its very obvious they are not exactly a good group and its not just from listening to Locke and Banon drone on and on about them being bad. ;)

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Again, I am not bashing VI. VII was able to achieve this because the technical limit had been raised heavily since VI. But my point is that the use of graphics elevated the game to a new level.

I understand but again I disagree. Its hard for you to use VII as a comparison cause they are the cast I'm the least sympathetic for. Except for Cid, I never felt any feeling or connection with its cast. Sorry...

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I feel that in a visually intensive medium such as video games, artistic style is needed to make the game more substantial. Look at Sin City. It is a great movie, and would probably have been great if they didn't make it in the style that they did. But, because they did, it was able to reinforce the game itself.

Visuals are important but not at the cost of everything else. It doesn't matter how good the actors are if the script is bad and the characters are flat and boring. This was fundamentally my issue with later titles. It always felt like the visuals got better and the story and characters got worse as time went on. But games have the ability to transcend the norms of movies. I felt it was great they borrowed techniques from the movie industry but games are fundamentally an interactive medium and I feel SE has been neglecting this. As I said before, their games always have this distinct separation of gameplay and story, they are not exactly as connected to each other and at times I feel story takes greater precedence and gameplay becomes a means to an end.

The greatest story moments I've had in recent years was from the MGS series where you actively participate in the climatic moments that are usually just cutscenes in other games. I love the story and characters in Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, not because it was a bit of gameplay that separated high end movie quality story scenes with wonderful dialogue, it was mostly gameplay and in the course of the game itself, you began to build a bond with the characters. I probably care more for the Colossi and MGS bosses than I ever did for most RPG villains cause I built a relationship through an interactive medium. FF has only flirted with the concept of combining storytelling and gameplay yet sadly its been slowly removed from their games. Even XII, a game I liked, did little to bring this into fruition.

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I don't watch that much anime to pick up the references you are making to X and so I cannot comment.

Its okay, many of its older stuff, in fact things that were around when Nojima and Nomura were most likely impressionable teens. The Yamato-no-Orochi on the other hand is a famous Japanese folktale and its storyline is seen in many animes. Inu-Yasha has a few episodes based on the legend and Blue Seed was a series solely based around the legend. I'll jusat quote myself to explain it.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

X is almost the tale of Orochi verbatim. Two earthly dieties (Spira) are terrorized constantly by the evil Orochi (Sin), the hero Susan-O (Tidus) appears before them while on his travels, he had been cast out of heaven (Zanarkand) and thrust into the strange world of mortals. He learns the Dieties sacrifice their daughters (summoners) in order to appease the beast only to have it return to wreak havoc later (Spiral of Death theme) Susano-O decides to kill the beast after meeting the last maiden to be sacrificed Kushi-inada-hime (Yuna), first he lulls it to sleep by feeding it sake (Hymn of the Fayeth) and finally kills the beast. Other versions of this story has the dieties replaced with a village and even focus on the misguided notions of the villages belief in sacrificing the maidens as the only way to save themselves. Thus you have your reference to the Yevon religion.

That's my major refernece.

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Now, I can guess that the reason you like IX is because it is a throwback to the earlier games, a signing off of sorts. But the thing is, Final Fantasy cannot be about swords and sorcery all the time. They needed to move in a new direction.

Not true, to be perfectly honest with you, I'm really not much of a fan of high fantasy. I like IX cause it had a good cast and story. It has its share of faults but I found them more acceptable than the two previous installments. In fact it brought back the interactive story telling that VII had been flirting with. Unfortunately, like VII, I felt the storylines of most of the cast was poorly tied up. I actually don't mind the sci-fi tones, I actually like VI's steam punk setting and VII's enviromental cyber punk settings. Even VIII's design was a nice change. I didn't feel X's was done well but its more about me not liking the direction they chose to go with it. I probably would have minimized the amount of machina that was seen in the game and probably would have made a stronger emphasis on the Shinto/Buddhist concepts. I actually like the idea of a sword made of water...

I actually don't care for many of the airship designs in XII cause I felt they borrowed too heavily from Star Wars. I also felt it partially conflicted with the rest of Ivalice's technology level. XIII only bothers me cause its basically pure sci-fi. Pulse looks like a prehistoric Spira but Cocoon looks like something straight out of Xenosaga. I geverally find the best designs in the series were ones where the sci-fi and fantasy elements balance each other out but I feel XIII and vXIII will fall into the same trappings as Spirits Within. A heavy sci-fi/modern story with one or two fantasy elements that can easily be explained in sci-fi terms. I don't care for high fantasy but I feel mysticism and magic is very important to a fantasy story and when its imbalanced (Like it seems to be in the two main XIII projects) it doesn't come off as well as it should.

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And, although I will admit that the opera scene in VI is awesome, what substance does it add to the story? Surely that is a prime example of style over substance...

It hints to the beginning of Celes and Locke liking each other, it expanded on the world of VI by establishing more of its Victorian steam punk setting, it showed another side of Celes who up until this point was a cold and tough general, now we could see a softer side of her. It was a comcial moment to ease the tension brought on by Zozo and leading to the Empire arch. It was an interactive moment that allowed the player to control the story and the characters in a cinematic experience which is something I was speaking about on how games can allow a greater level of interactivity when one can actually particiapte in the story scenes. Its because of that reason alone it is one of the famous and most highly regarded scenes in the FF series

It also brought us one of the greatest FF tracks which many feel influenced another fabulous and great track, Aerith's theme. :cool: