Do you think Squenix has lost vision of the FF series?

[Wolf Kanno]

By this I mean, do you [...]
What are your thoughts?

Will you feel the same thing after the release of FFXIII?

I already answered this but...

It depends, I need SE to succeed with a few FFs in a row for me to become confident in them again. I would probably be more accepting if SE stopped hiring Nojima for his services cause he has never written a good plot on his own. His style is very amateurish and very pretentious and I don't like having the game tell me the equivalent of a children's story and at the same time treat me like I'm too stupid to understand what's going on.

********************************************
(Further thoughts)


I guess my issue is that Nojima/Kitase/and Nomura are creators for the mainstream. Its not a bad thing but I always felt FF was suppose to be on the edge defining the genre rather than just being the most well made. I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like. Even though VIII was a title they worked on, I admit I felt even then, it was moving towards a more mainstream approach but its drastic art and gameplay change saved it.

I appreciate trying to redefine "fantasy" by going to their Japanese roots but its plot is literally one of the most overdone legends in Japanese mythology and its most unique concepts was a rip-off from VII with a greater emphasis on the Buddhist belief system. My other issue was that the plot made it too easy to invoke emotion from the player and rather than do it low-key, it laid it on so thick that the drama was more comical than tear jerking. In fact its rather bland cast had to overuse the plot devices to invoke any real emotion cause they themselves were lacking of any character.

Playing X felt like watching a casual Hollywood blockbuster, it doesn't have real actors just people who look the part, its plot tries to be thought provoking but its so poorly written/told that its depth is the equivalent of a blank fortune cooking, and the whole thing was very predictable, you knew going in how it was all going to turn out.

For a movie, its a few hours of your life you wasted cause you might have been bored, as a game it was 40 hours, and coming from a series that had blown me away with each installment; X fell short big time by basically being like every other RPG on the market except have the best graphics and sound quality. I don't know about anyone else but I don't really play these games for pretty graphics.

XI is a good game but the direction to MMO gameplay makes the game not well received in most of the fanbase. I personally have been having a blast with the game but I cannot bring myself to let it be a part of the numbered series.

Then there was XII which I thoroughly enjoyed cause it brought back the edge into the series. Yet XII has one fatal flaw... FFTactics, Ivalice was an established world long before XII and the dream world of Matsuno. XII was his way to bring his vision of the FF he created back then; yet here is where the problem lies. Ivalice will always be Matsuno's and the Tactic's world. Despite how good it is, its hard to accept it as a numbered FF cause it is literally another chapter in the World of Ivalice. It would be like Dragon Quest IX suddenly getting retitled as FF XIV. It may be a great game but its obviously a DQ game no matter how you see it. And though I felt XII brought the series back to its original spirit and felt far more like an FF then X; it doesn't change the fact that Matsuno is gone and his team is working on building up the Ivalice world. So we are now back to the people who originally destroyed my faith in the franchise and all they keep doing is showing flashy trailers with things they know fans want to see...

I keep telling myself that X was a fluke, it was a game where so many bad decisions happened at once and I should not judge the team cause one game went disastrously bad for me. Yet playing any other title they have involvement in (i.e. Compilation of FFVII) I find myself seeing the same terrible pattern I saw in X. Yet I cannot really blame Kitase and Nomura. I blame it all on one person, Nojima.

During all this time, I've watched Nojima fail miserably as a writer, I hate what he has done with Kingdom Hearts and the VII Compilation and anything else he somehow gets involved with. He has steadily gotten worse over the years with his writing. He needs to no longer be hired for service cause he cannot write anything intelligent, rather he just writes what the brain dead masses want and in turn makes them more brain dead. I generally blame him for the fall of the FF series, I noticed that he is generally the key factor in whether I like a title or not anymore. If he's involved the story pisses me off cause of its show boating and inconsistencies and over the top soap opera drama. If its anyone else, it is amazing and good. SE just needs to drop the dead weight in their development staff.

*END RANT*

[champagne supernova]

Kitase has been involved in a more hands-off role as a producer for a while now, so he won't be leading any team from now on. And Kingdom Hears, X and X-2, despite what you have against them, are technically very polished. So he seems to be a skilled producer and should stay there. Nojima no longer works for Square-Enix, so it looks like your wish has been granted Wolf. Although, you should possibly be ranting at Kitase, seeing that he produced the entire compilation, and seems to be one of the people who is really behind it, whereas Nojima was only involved in Crisis Core and Before Crisis.

If you want to see the future of Square-Enix, look at the two titles coming up, and the people who are the creative heads of them both.

XIII: Motomu Toriyama. Worked his way up through Square-Enix, doing work on VII and VIII. Was the Event Director for X and the Director for X-2. He also was the Scenario Writer and Director of Revenant Wings (which basically means he was in charge of that).

Versus XIII: Tetsuya Nomura. Great character designer. Very heavily involved in Kingdom Hearts. Apparently (I'm not sure if this is true), he wrote the original story for VII.

I reckon that Nomura will win this battle. You might not like the mood of Kingdom Hearts, but Nomura's vision for Versus is a dark, realistic title. If he did write the original story for VII, it shows that he has the capability to create a good story. Toriyama is decent, I'm sure, but I think Square might have lost some faith in him after X-2.

[Wolf Kanno]

Kitase has been involved in a more hands-off role as a producer for a while now, so he won't be leading any team from now on. And Kingdom Hears, X and X-2, despite what you have against them, are technically very polished. So he seems to be a skilled producer and should stay there. Nojima no longer works for Square-Enix, so it looks like your wish has been granted Wolf. Although, you should possibly be ranting at Kitase, seeing that he produced the entire compilation, and seems to be one of the people who is really behind it, whereas Nojima was only involved in Crisis Core and Before Crisis.

Nojima also wrote the plot to Advent Children and I could have sworn that he is credited for being the writer of all the Compilation projects. Despite being freelance, SE continues to hire his services cause they seem to have no one else.

I don't necessarily dislike Kitase and I agree he's a decent Producer, but I feel his strengths lie in writing and directing. I always felt the gameplay side of the titles he produces fall flat but its hard to blame him cause he plays to his strength so more emphasis is placed on the story, graphics and presentation. I don't dislike the man but I feel he would be better suited elsewhere.

If you want to see the future of Square-Enix, look at the two titles coming up, and the people who are the creative heads of them both.

XIII: Motomu Toriyama. Worked his way up through Square-Enix, doing work on VII and VIII. Was the Event Director for X and the Director for X-2. He also was the Scenario Writer and Director of Revenant Wings (which basically means he was in charge of that).

I have yet to play Revnant Wings but I'm afraid the rest of his resume doesn't bode well for me yet he's still technically the "new guy" so it would be fair to give him a fair shot but reading his interviews concerning XIII I feel he has missed the point as he seems more focused on graphics and the quality of the technology rather than the fundamentals of what makes a game shine. Time will tell though.

Versus XIII: Tetsuya Nomura. Great character designer. Very heavily involved in Kingdom Hearts. Apparently (I'm not sure if this is true), he wrote the original story for VII.

Nomura and Sakeguchi wrote the original story of VII together, Kitase and Nojima went through and created a script from it that was used as the game's scenario.

Nomura is like Kitase in that he likes flash and action. It doesn't surprise me cause he's an artist and thus his stories tend to be more of a visual medium rather than a thinking one. Despite this I don't hate the man but I do feel his talents are overrated at times. Nomura to me has always been a very mainstream type of guy, his designs are more about broad appeal rather than being edgy and he's a man who's influences are very apparent to anyone who has knowledge of Japaneses Culture for the last two decades.

Despite this, Nomura seems to have figured out what Sakeguchi was trying to do with the series and I have a bit more faith in Versus cause Nomura has a better and more cohesive idea of what he wants in terms of story and gameplay.

I reckon that Nomura will win this battle. You might not like the mood of Kingdom Hearts, but Nomura's vision for Versus is a dark, realistic title. If he did write the original story for VII, it shows that he has the capability to create a good story. Toriyama is decent, I'm sure, but I think Square might have lost some faith in him after X-2.

I don't consider VII to be a masterpiece in terms of writing. Its plot and cast I felt were the games weakest elements; so I'm afraid soothing me with, "its the guys who did VII" doesn't help. The compilation has three of the four masterminds behind VII working on them and I consider everything except LO to be total crap from the project.

I have nothing against KH as a series, but I felt Nojima dropped the ball in KH2. The series seemed to be going somewhere and then Nojima smurfed it all up when he did KH2 and half-assed tied every thing up. I feel Daisuke Watanabe should be the sole writer for KH cause I felt he did the strongest entry in the series and he was one of the four writers in the first game. Nojima was the sole writer of KH2 which is why the quality dropped significantly for the sake of random and unnecessary plot twists and side stories.

I feel Nomura will win as well but I also feel that Versus will meet the same fate as XI and XII (as well as X if you're like me) and be so different that most of the fanbase will not accept it as the true sequel to the series. I still feel the ideal behind the XIII project has never been explained very well and it will shoot SE in the foot in the end of this charade. I feel SE's downward spiral is a direct result of Sakeguchi leaving, Nojima being left unchecked, and Wada being more about the money.

[champagne supernova]

I know that Kitase feels that Versus would not be considered a numbered Final Fantasy, which is probably why it has been put in this Fabula Nova series. But I disagree with you on the gameplay in the games Kitase produces. The battle systems in X and X-2 were the best the series had ever seen (I'm talking about the actual battles, not the way they are encountered). X-2 was very fun to play - maybe it's mood and story were very light-hearted and silly, but the gameplay saved it for me. Also, Kitase has not worked in a position of creative leadership for a while, so he would be very rusty.

Yasumi Matsuno would probably have been the heir apparent to lead the series, but he is no longer part of Square-Enix, which is unfortunate. I think maybe the two guys who replaced him should be given a shot, because they had to work with a half done project.

I feel that Toriyama actually needs to be given a chance to prove himself. Yes, X-2 is not really a Final Fantasy, but then again (just like the gentlemen mentioned above), he was forced to work on a vision that wasn't his. XIII will be able to show his true ability. And from what I heard about Revenant Wings, it seemed to have been well done.

Nojima was involved in 3 of the Compilation games. But he is not involved in any of the Fabula Nova games. So no worries there. And also, as I mentioned earlier, the Compilation games are not the priority of Square-Enix. How much attention can Nomura give to Advent Children when he is also busy working on Kingdom Hearts and Versus XIII (not mentioning his character design role)? Ditto with Kitase.

I do not want Sakaguchi back. Look at what has happened with his Mistwalker company. He has lost his touch. In X, he was apparently against the transition from 2D to 3D and voice-acting. Final Fantasy has constantly evolved, and Sakaguchi did not want it to.

I agree that VII might not be the masterpiece of storytelling. But it is intriguing and it is exciting. I liked the story of X, but VII is definitely more exciting. It suggests that Nomura is able to create interesting characters, create drama, and make a story that you want to find out more. And VII was released more than a decade ago, so his storytelling ability should have improved (hopefully).

From what I have seen of Versus, I am excited. And the new footage of XIII has excited me as well. It looks like we may have two truly great Final Fantasy games being released.

But I will agree that this is not a secure time for Square-Enix. A new set of people are working on it from now on. But there was a time when Kitase moved up from a similar role. And Sakaguchi was once a rookie. Everybody has to come from somewhere. And I think that Toriyama has been surrounded and learnt under the greatest talents in the genre, and Nomura has shown that he has great potential.

[Wolf Kanno]

I know that Kitase feels that Versus would not be considered a numbered Final Fantasy, which is probably why it has been put in this Fabula Nova series. But I disagree with you on the gameplay in the games Kitase produces. The battle systems in X and X-2 were the best the series had ever seen (I'm talking about the actual battles, not the way they are encountered). X-2 was very fun to play - maybe it's mood and story were very light-hearted and silly, but the gameplay saved it for me. Also, Kitase has not worked in a position of creative leadership for a while, so he would be very rusty.

We will have to agree to disagree as I consider X to have the worst gameplay in the series and X-2's is horribly overrated. I felt XII did a better job with the New ATB system introduced in X-2 than X-2 did. As for Kitase, he has been working in a position creatively for awhile, reading his notes from the X and X-2 Ultimania, its obvious he had a very strong influence on the story and world in those games. To be honest, I should be considering VI and VII to be flukes since he was so involved with X and X-2's plots but I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt.

Yasumi Matsuno would probably have been the heir apparent to lead the series, but he is no longer part of Square-Enix, which is unfortunate. I think maybe the two guys who replaced him should be given a shot, because they had to work with a half done project.

There is a good chance they may get a shot especially considering that one of them is Ito and he has alot of experience. He actually co-directed FFVI with Kitase and he's the man responsible for most of the FF series combat systems among other accomplishments. He's a vet whose been there since the beginning with Sakeguchi. He's also my choice for the man to take lead of the franchise.

Minegawa, I'm not so sure of as his past experience cause he's mostly been an art director for the Ivalice team. XII was his first experience as a director and I feel he mostly got the gig cause he worked intimately with Matsuno and thus had the best idea of what he wanted for XII to be.

I feel that Toriyama actually needs to be given a chance to prove himself. Yes, X-2 is not really a Final Fantasy, but then again (just like the gentlemen mentioned above), he was forced to work on a vision that wasn't his. XIII will be able to show his true ability. And from what I heard about Revenant Wings, it seemed to have been well done.

I agree, cause it is true, he has never worked on a solo project before. He always does sequels. In fact his other current project is the sequel to the Parasite Eve series for cell phone. It will be interesting to see what he can do but I'm still skeptical due to his interviews and what I have seen. Still their is a good chance it may be good. I really hope it is.

Nojima was involved in 3 of the Compilation games. But he is not involved in any of the Fabula Nova games. So no worries there. And also, as I mentioned earlier, the Compilation games are not the priority of Square-Enix. How much attention can Nomura give to Advent Children when he is also busy working on Kingdom Hearts and Versus XIII (not mentioning his character design role)? Ditto with Kitase.

The Compilation has seemed to be Kitase's main focus for the last few years, especially considering how many interviews he's done concerning them. Nomura directed AC, so really, they both had major influences on the project. Granted Nomura's involvement ended with AC (though what a "Creative Producer" is I don't know cause he's credited with it in Crisis Core) and afterwards he only supplied Character design but he seemed to have felt that the Compilation should have ended with AC. Nomura is still working on several projects even now especially since the three KH spin-off/prequels will be released before Versus will ever be.

I doubled check and you are right that Nojima is not involved in the XIII project... and you have no idea how happy that makes me. I think my interest in the XIII projects just went up. Everyone kept saying the X team so I just assumed Nojima was going to return as scenario writer. Hell, even the KH games have gone up on my list since he won't be involved. I could have sworn I heard he was still scenario writer for one of them though...

I do not want Sakaguchi back. Look at what has happened with his Mistwalker company. He has lost his touch. In X, he was apparently against the transition from 2D to 3D and voice-acting. Final Fantasy has constantly evolved, and Sakaguchi did not want it to.

Its not that he didn't want it, he seemed more concerned whether they could do it right. VIII was originally suppose to have VA but was scratched due to technology limitations. You have to admit that X was dialogue heavy. Considering they were trying to make both a transition to 3D backgrounds and VA at the same time, I could see where one might not think it would work well. X didn't even make a complete transition anyway since most of the backgrounds were still presented in the tpical 2D styles.

Tbh, I don't feel either of these contributions were groundbreaking or useful for the series at the time. The 3D backgrounds were better used in XI and XII cause they were done properly. VA just allowed FF to catch up to everyone else. I feel this statement is a misunderstanding than him being pissy about innovation; especially when you consider how much he pushed innovation from his staff. He said he constanly challenged the staff to try different things to keep the series fresh and interesting.

He pushes for innovation but he's only as good as his team. I don't believe Sakeguchi is a great director or writer. He never really designed a battle system (that was Ito) but I feel he was the visionary of the series and looking at his titles from Mistwalker, I feel he still has this quality. He just no longer has the team to pull them off as well. The only complaint I've heard in regards to Mistwalkers titles is that their gameplay is decidely "old school" beyond that, their plots and music were amazing. I feel at this point it comes down to personal taste. Despite that, I feel all his titles under Mistwalker have done some innovative things.

I agree that VII might not be the masterpiece of storytelling. But it is intriguing and it is exciting. I liked the story of X, but VII is definitely more exciting. It suggests that Nomura is able to create interesting characters, create drama, and make a story that you want to find out more. And VII was released more than a decade ago, so his storytelling ability should have improved (hopefully).

VII was intriguing but I found its plot disappointing and its cast to be bland and dislikable, but thats me I guess. I agree its world and plot had intriguing elements though.

VII had four different writer, and from the sound of things its main themes were more of Sakeguchi's contribution since he was still dealing with the death of his mother at the time. Nomura's involvement was probably just as great, we know he was behind the characters themselves and Aerith's death. I feel Nomura has intriguing ideas, I'm curious to see if he can actually pull them off by himself. Up until now he has always had Nojima and Watanabe to help him write his stories for him. Its why Versus will be interesting.

From what I have seen of Versus, I am excited. And the new footage of XIII has excited me as well. It looks like we may have two truly great Final Fantasy games being released.

Versus looks the better, but I worry it will be 90% cutscenes and 10% gameplay. It doesn't feel like an FF though, more like a Godfather inspired version of Devil May Cry. I still feel there is not enough info to say how it might be either way.

XIII on the hand has an intriguing plot but the trailers feel like 10 other titles I've played before and some of the ideas in the game seem downright silly (Mecha Shiva Bike!!!). I don't like its over emphasis on wire-fu action, it just feels "cheap" to me. The same way it did In AC. The trailers just show me a bunch of popular ideas and cliches that nerdy otaku like crammed together to be a fanboy wet dream. At best it feels like an amalgam of VII, VIII, and X combined, which is not a winning combo in my book.

Still, there is little to be seen on the game and even I admit that I can't say for sure it sucks or is a "sell-out" title but the trailers don't help its case. At this point, I feel SE should stay quiet until the game is released.

But I will agree that this is not a secure time for Square-Enix. A new set of people are working on it from now on. But there was a time when Kitase moved up from a similar role. And Sakaguchi was once a rookie. Everybody has to come from somewhere. And I think that Toriyama has been surrounded and learned under the greatest talents in the genre, and Nomura has shown that he has great potential.

I don't feel Toriyama was under the best in the business, maybe its "second string" but not the best Square had to offer at the time. Yet, I do agree that its time to watch the new talent come up and see what they can do. He may even surprise us all. We have new teams and teams that have lost their visionary leaders. I wouldn't even be surprised if Nomura decided to leave SE in a few more years and went freelance or opened his own studio with the KH team. The next few years will be interesting, I just hope Wada steps down during that time.

[Bolivar]

I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like.

Alot more people than anime nerds not only liked but flat out loved FFX. Your feelings on it being disaster after disaster combined is in the minority of a minority of opinions, for most it was a groundbreaking title that brought JRPGs and the entire gaming industry in general, into the next-generation (ps2/gamecube/xbox) at the time.

On the topic:
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The vision for final fantasy is a groundbreaking, blockbuster, mega-event, big budget computer entertainment experience that redefines the boundaries for gameplay and raises the bar on tech. This is no better exemplified with the first installment, FFI having unrivaled battle animations and arguably the first RPG to show your lineup on one side of the screen. Since the beginning, making 3D games on the NES, Squaresoft has always been about top graphics and top gameplay. Final Fantasy XII, the last entry in the series, embodies this vision on all fronts.

For this reason I cannot possibly suggest that Square Enix has lost its vision. As far as the fanbase goes, the only problem placating a multi-generational army of fans that's been built up over the last 20 years, is how little the last game, FFXII resembled the style of the earlier ones. Although it was a game lacking of the FF "feel", I don't think anyone could doubt that it represented a massive contribution to the gaming artform.

I have faith in Toriyama because looking at his resume, events in FFVII, director FFX, X-2, and Revenant Wings, it's clear he at least knows how to make fun games, and is good at it.

Sakaguchi should no longer be carried as the standardbearer for what the FF series originally was. It's becoming clear through interviews, especially with the developers for III and IV DS, that he was not in a development role in the original titles. There is no better evidence than the games that he has produced since leaving Square: Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon were both panned as unfulfilled, tedious, last-generation games awkwardly on a new console. ASH for the DS had been universally panned as just a bad game. He's 0 for 3, with his 4th game (Cry On) being cancelled due to "the economy". Even with heavy hitters like Akira Toriyama, Hitoshi Sakimoto and Nobuo Uematsu, failing to produce quality material puts his reputation in question.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

By this I mean, do you sometimes feel that Squenix has lost the ability to know and plan where they really ant to take the franchise? This of course only works if you assume FF had a vision of where they wanted to go before hand (I know I do). It just seems to me when you look at the series, there is a gradual build up until you hit the PS2 era and then it feels like FF is going everywhere and lacks any solid direction and foundation.

Bureaucracy chased away whatever talent was left guiding the franchise, including Sakaguchi and Matsuno, while playing up the influence of hacks like Nomura. I'll definitely take Lost Odyssey over what FFXIII is shaping up to be.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like.

Alot more people than anime nerds not only liked but flat out loved FFX. Your feelings on it being disaster after disaster combined is in the minority of a minority of opinions, for most it was a groundbreaking title that brought JRPGs and the entire gaming industry in general, into the next-generation (ps2/gamecube/xbox) at the time.

I don't find myself as a "minority of a minority" there are more people who dislike X than you would believe. I made my "swear jar" so I won't go into this but I will ask what X did that was so groundbreaking?

Voice acting? Existed years before that in games and RPGs.

CTB? Its just a modified ATB on wait mode and has not been seen since.

3D Backgrounds? Were not even implemented the way they were intended by the creators. In fact, their original goal was very much XII's system.

Story? That's more personal opinion and is hardly innovated, even you have to admit that X's plot is more Hollywood than Tolstoy

On the topic:
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The vision for final fantasy is a groundbreaking, blockbuster, mega-event, big budget computer entertainment experience that redefines the boundaries for gameplay and raises the bar on tech. This is no better exemplified with the first installment, FFI having unrivaled battle animations and arguably the first RPG to show your lineup on one side of the screen. Since the beginning, making 3D games on the NES, Squaresoft has always been about top graphics and top gameplay. Final Fantasy XII, the last entry in the series, embodies this vision on all fronts.

Here's where I disagree, cause I don't see FF meaning any of these things. Groundbreaking and computer entertainment yes but none of the other. You are describing a movie more than a game series in my mind. That is not what FF is to me and though its a direction I know Sakaguchi pushed the series into, I felt when he was in charge their was still an artistic quality about the products that is lacking in today's titles.

We will have to disagree cause I know already we will never convince each other.

For this reason I cannot possibly suggest that Square Enix has lost its vision. As far as the fanbase goes, the only problem placating a multi-generational army of fans that's been built up over the last 20 years, is how little the last game, FFXII resembled the style of the earlier ones. Although it was a game lacking of the FF "feel", I don't think anyone could doubt that it represented a massive contribution to the gaming artform.

They have lost their ability to stand up for their products and fanbase. Though XII is the most critically acclaimed FF in the series, its disliked by the fanbase, especially the Japanese fanbase and has since gone out of their way to present XIII as being nothing like XII (even saying so) and will be more like X. A game that is not as widely critically acclaimed but is the Japanese audiances favorite title in the series. They even let Matsuno go without saying why. It bothers me that you would create something and not stand by it when the fans get finnicky. Sakaguchi at least stood by his flop, even if it cost him everything. Hell, The World Ends with You has done very well in the West but because the Japanese audience disliked it, President Wada has now implemented rules saying he will fire people if they don't make successful games. SE is now a buisness and has lost its artistic soul in my opinion.

I have faith in Toriyama because looking at his resume, events in FFVII, director FFX, X-2, and Revenant Wings, it's clear he at least knows how to make fun games, and is good at it.

I can't share your optimism cause I don't feel fondly about three of those titles and have yet to play the fourth (RW). His resume does not change my feelings about the future. I'm still willing to give him a shot though.

Sakaguchi should no longer be carried as the standardbearer for what the FF series originally was. It's becoming clear through interviews, especially with the developers for III and IV DS, that he was not in a development role in the original titles. There is no better evidence than the games that he has produced since leaving Square: Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon were both panned as unfulfilled, tedious, last-generation games awkwardly on a new console. ASH for the DS had been universally panned as just a bad game. He's 0 for 3, with his 4th game (Cry On) being cancelled due to "the economy". Even with heavy hitters like Akira Toriyama, Hitoshi Sakimoto and Nobuo Uematsu, failing to produce quality material puts his reputation in question.

First, I would take the interviews with a grain of salt. I'm not sure if you have noticed but SE has been sytematically remving Sakaguchi from the FF series. He is not even listed anymore in the original staff credits for the ports and remakes. Apparently, the original FFV didn't have a director... This is not surprisng cause the Japanese culture is all about saving face and lets face it, Sakaguchi did bankrupt Square with the FF movie, though he did more damage when he stepped down as VP.

I've read quite a few interviews concerning III and IV and have never heard anything negative about Sakaguchi, they just don't mention him. Cause SE would like us to forget about him. I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I did find it disturbing he's no longer credited in the games we know he worked on. Its weird that years later, SE would admit an employee that is no longer in good standing with the company would state he had little to do with former titles. He first became their scapegoat and now he's being erased from their history. As a history lover, you should understand this isn't too far fetched. Its all about politics.

As for Mistwalker's games, I find it funny that they have not done well critically but I don't know anyone who really hates them. The games fanbases are close to FF fantatical. I find it hard to believe Blue Dragon did poorly seeing as its a TV show, Toy line, has a sequel in the works... The main complaints I hear about his titles is their lack of innovation in the gameplay department and bit of "borrowing" from earlier titles. (LO Twins anyone?) yet most reviews I've read say these titles nothing but positive things. He also has the burden of having a lot of expectations on his shoulder and the fact is, Sakaguchi is not that talented. I said before that Sakaguchi is a "balancer" he has the ability to take people's talents and work them into the best outcome. He's only as good as his team and Ito is the man who brought gameplay innvoation into the FF series. Sakaguchi is not always successful but who is? Certainly not SE whose "system selling power" legacy has dwindled considerably in the last 8 years.

I don't know anyone who even cares about XIII, not even FF fans seem to care anymore. Ten years ago, most gaming mags would die to get a bit of info on the next FF or Square title but in recent years, SE is lucky to get a footnote and it usally has a bit of sarcastic wit instead of abated breath of things to come. Has there even been a high profile JRPG in the last few years? The kind that everyone talks about and is obsessing over months after its release, like they did in the PS1 era? No. Maybe Persona 3 but that's more about the title coming out of nowhere and being successful despite little PR. Its more cult hit than mainstream smash hit.

SE's biggest hits in the last few years have been ports of successful titles, remakes of succesful titles, and a fighting game that has a collection of characters from successful titles. I feel SE has seen their "Golden Age" and while fans have moved on, SE still thinks they have the same influence they did ten years ago. The media and even part of the fanbase consider them a sell-out and a joke. Its reaching the point the company is having a backlash from its former supporters.

I don't completely blame SE, part of this is just the fact that SE's specialty is no longer a major contender in the gaming market nowadays. I don't think SE realized that RPGs were a fad in the gaming community and that's why they were always hits. The market is now saturated and the community has moved onto the next big thing (like they did with platforming and fighting games in the early to mid 90's). Its not that RPGs no longer sell, but SE should not expect the same level of prosperity as they recieved in the late 90's. It seems as though if a title doesn't become an overwhelming smash hit, its deemed a failure. They have become like Disney in the aftermath of the Lion King phenomena.

Bureaucracy chased away whatever talent was left guiding the franchise, including Sakaguchi and Matsuno, while playing up the influence of hacks like Nomura. I'll definitely take Lost Odyssey over what FFXIII is shaping up to be.

I agree, I feel Square's success has ruined the company and destroyed the original creative spirit it once had. It still has talented people working there but I'm very skeptical SE will ever reclaim the throne that Square had in the late 90's. Especially since anyone who has talent seems to jump ship. I can't fathom why SE would let Matsuno go.

[Karellen]

Matsuno makes games like Vagrant Story. Square Enix makes games like Kingdom Hearts.

Did they let him go though? I thought he quit.

[Wolf Kanno]

Matsuno makes games like Vagrant Story. Square Enix makes games like Kingdom Hearts.

Did they let him go though? I thought he quit.

I meant more that SE would allow a guy with such high critical success to leave. Whether they would fire him or let him quit, the man was a genius. You would think they would name him a price.

I get the impression he was fired, probably for taking so damn long on XII I believe the Wikipedia states XII holds the record for longest production time of a console game. This is assuming that Duke Nukem Forever will inevitably be canceled. :rolleyes2

The whole thing is still a bit of a mystery and considering Matsuno has disappeared from the limelight we may never know unless he turns up.

[The Man]

Far too tired to do anything more than skim the thread at this point, but I'm just going to say that the Square in charge of producing FF games now pretty much isn't at all the Square that was producing FF games twenty years ago. I don't think any of the original content creators are even still working at the company. So it's not all that surprising that the content they're creating would be different... and honestly, most of it doesn't really interest me that much. Maybe I'll play FFXII at some point, but for now I'm honestly more interested in the remakes of old games than the new games. Then again, I have... odd taste.

Basically, I agree with Kishi and what I've read of Wolf Kanno's posts.

[Bolivar]

I don't have faith in the team that gave us X, cause X lacked any stellar innovation and its plot was filled with so many anime/rpg cliches it was kinda a blow to the head to see a series that brought us groundbreaking titles like, VIII and IX backtrack and make something that only the mainstream anime nerds would like.

Alot more people than anime nerds not only liked but flat out loved FFX. Your feelings on it being disaster after disaster combined is in the minority of a minority of opinions, for most it was a groundbreaking title that brought JRPGs and the entire gaming industry in general, into the next-generation (ps2/gamecube/xbox) at the time.

I don't find myself as a "minority of a minority" there are more people who dislike X than you would believe. I made my "swear jar" so I won't go into this but I will ask what X did that was so groundbreaking?

Voice acting? Existed years before that in games and RPGs.

CTB? Its just a modified ATB on wait mode and has not been seen since.

3D Backgrounds? Were not even implemented the way they were intended by the creators. In fact, their original goal was very much XII's system.

Story? That's more personal opinion and is hardly innovated, even you have to admit that X's plot is more Hollywood than Tolstoy

On the topic:
--------------------------------

The vision for final fantasy is a groundbreaking, blockbuster, mega-event, big budget computer entertainment experience that redefines the boundaries for gameplay and raises the bar on tech. This is no better exemplified with the first installment, FFI having unrivaled battle animations and arguably the first RPG to show your lineup on one side of the screen. Since the beginning, making 3D games on the NES, Squaresoft has always been about top graphics and top gameplay. Final Fantasy XII, the last entry in the series, embodies this vision on all fronts.

Here's where I disagree, cause I don't see FF meaning any of these things. Groundbreaking and computer entertainment yes but none of the other. You are describing a movie more than a game series in my mind. That is not what FF is to me and though its a direction I know Sakaguchi pushed the series into, I felt when he was in charge their was still an artistic quality about the products that is lacking in today's titles.

We will have to disagree cause I know already we will never convince each other.

For this reason I cannot possibly suggest that Square Enix has lost its vision. As far as the fanbase goes, the only problem placating a multi-generational army of fans that's been built up over the last 20 years, is how little the last game, FFXII resembled the style of the earlier ones. Although it was a game lacking of the FF "feel", I don't think anyone could doubt that it represented a massive contribution to the gaming artform.

They have lost their ability to stand up for their products and fanbase. Though XII is the most critically acclaimed FF in the series, its disliked by the fanbase, especially the Japanese fanbase and has since gone out of their way to present XIII as being nothing like XII (even saying so) and will be more like X. A game that is not as widely critically acclaimed but is the Japanese audiances favorite title in the series. They even let Matsuno go without saying why. It bothers me that you would create something and not stand by it when the fans get finnicky. Sakaguchi at least stood by his flop, even if it cost him everything. Hell, The World Ends with You has done very well in the West but because the Japanese audience disliked it, President Wada has now implemented rules saying he will fire people if they don't make successful games. SE is now a buisness and has lost its artistic soul in my opinion.

I have faith in Toriyama because looking at his resume, events in FFVII, director FFX, X-2, and Revenant Wings, it's clear he at least knows how to make fun games, and is good at it.

I can't share your optimism cause I don't feel fondly about three of those titles and have yet to play the fourth (RW). His resume does not change my feelings about the future. I'm still willing to give him a shot though.

Sakaguchi should no longer be carried as the standardbearer for what the FF series originally was. It's becoming clear through interviews, especially with the developers for III and IV DS, that he was not in a development role in the original titles. There is no better evidence than the games that he has produced since leaving Square: Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon were both panned as unfulfilled, tedious, last-generation games awkwardly on a new console. ASH for the DS had been universally panned as just a bad game. He's 0 for 3, with his 4th game (Cry On) being cancelled due to "the economy". Even with heavy hitters like Akira Toriyama, Hitoshi Sakimoto and Nobuo Uematsu, failing to produce quality material puts his reputation in question.

First, I would take the interviews with a grain of salt. I'm not sure if you have noticed but SE has been sytematically remving Sakaguchi from the FF series. He is not even listed anymore in the original staff credits for the ports and remakes. Apparently, the original FFV didn't have a director... This is not surprisng cause the Japanese culture is all about saving face and lets face it, Sakaguchi did bankrupt Square with the FF movie, though he did more damage when he stepped down as VP.

I've read quite a few interviews concerning III and IV and have never heard anything negative about Sakaguchi, they just don't mention him. Cause SE would like us to forget about him. I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I did find it disturbing he's no longer credited in the games we know he worked on. Its weird that years later, SE would admit an employee that is no longer in good standing with the company would state he had little to do with former titles. He first became their scapegoat and now he's being erased from their history. As a history lover, you should understand this isn't too far fetched. Its all about politics.

As for Mistwalker's games, I find it funny that they have not done well critically but I don't know anyone who really hates them. The games fanbases are close to FF fantatical. I find it hard to believe Blue Dragon did poorly seeing as its a TV show, Toy line, has a sequel in the works... The main complaints I hear about his titles is their lack of innovation in the gameplay department and bit of "borrowing" from earlier titles. (LO Twins anyone?) yet most reviews I've read say these titles nothing but positive things. He also has the burden of having a lot of expectations on his shoulder and the fact is, Sakaguchi is not that talented. I said before that Sakaguchi is a "balancer" he has the ability to take people's talents and work them into the best outcome. He's only as good as his team and Ito is the man who brought gameplay innvoation into the FF series. Sakaguchi is not always successful but who is? Certainly not SE whose "system selling power" legacy has dwindled considerably in the last 8 years.

I don't know anyone who even cares about XIII, not even FF fans seem to care anymore. Ten years ago, most gaming mags would die to get a bit of info on the next FF or Square title but in recent years, SE is lucky to get a footnote and it usally has a bit of sarcastic wit instead of abated breath of things to come. Has there even been a high profile JRPG in the last few years? The kind that everyone talks about and is obsessing over months after its release, like they did in the PS1 era? No. Maybe Persona 3 but that's more about the title coming out of nowhere and being successful despite little PR. Its more cult hit than mainstream smash hit.

SE's biggest hits in the last few years have been ports of successful titles, remakes of succesful titles, and a fighting game that has a collection of characters from successful titles. I feel SE has seen their "Golden Age" and while fans have moved on, SE still thinks they have the same influence they did ten years ago. The media and even part of the fanbase consider them a sell-out and a joke. Its reaching the point the company is having a backlash from its former supporters.

I don't completely blame SE, part of this is just the fact that SE's specialty is no longer a major contender in the gaming market nowadays. I don't think SE realized that RPGs were a fad in the gaming community and that's why they were always hits. The market is now saturated and the community has moved onto the next big thing (like they did with platforming and fighting games in the early to mid 90's). Its not that RPGs no longer sell, but SE should not expect the same level of prosperity as they recieved in the late 90's. It seems as though if a title doesn't become an overwhelming smash hit, its deemed a failure. They have become like Disney in the aftermath of the Lion King phenomena.

Bureaucracy chased away whatever talent was left guiding the franchise, including Sakaguchi and Matsuno, while playing up the influence of hacks like Nomura. I'll definitely take Lost Odyssey over what FFXIII is shaping up to be.

I agree, I feel Square's success has ruined the company and destroyed the original creative spirit it once had. It still has talented people working there but I'm very skeptical SE will ever reclaim the throne that Square had in the late 90's. Especially since anyone who has talent seems to jump ship. I can't fathom why SE would let Matsuno go.

dude, conciseness is a virtue!

a) How does SE not stand by their games? All I've heard from the FFXII team and Wada is how proud they are of how the game has done commercially and critically. What are you talking about?

b) How has SE lost its artistic soul when you have constantly praised the artistic qualities of the latest game in the series? The glaring contradictions in your premises are confusing!

c) All I said is that Toriyama knows how to make fun games. The min-games and in-story-minigames in VII added fun variety. Say what you want about X, but CTB was interesting and fun (despite obvious party-switch-to-weakness-target mechanics). X-2, while widely panned for its girl power theme (I won't play it) has received universal praise for its battle system. RW is a fun game I love to just sit down and play.

d) Some interviews were before he left the company. One such was when Kitase was asked if he would remake FFIV, he said you'd have to ask Hiromichi Tanaka, as he directed that one. Tanaka was tapped to direct FFXI, because it was supposed to be a classic FF world, and he was responsible for those early FF games. This is exemplified by his director and executive role in the remakes of FFIII and IV, which he was attributed to having directed them originally. In one article, he describes coming up with the world of swords and sorcery that was the basis for the first FF's along with Koichi Ishi, along with whom the 2 went on to create the Seiken Densetsu series. Akitoshi Kawazu has repeatedly been attributed to directing FFII by others and himself, and the similarities to the SaGa series are apparent. There are no reasons to assume Sakaguchi was in any creative or developmental responisibilities in those games other than the title. American Pseudo-FF-purists (the cliche organization insisting IV and VI are the best) have falsly attributed him as an icon, when the people who came to replace him (Kitase, Nomura, Nojima), filled in roles he himself never fulfilled. To add even more irony, one of the 2 documented times he had creative input was FFVII! The evil behemoth despised by the same fans who idolize him! It's hilarious! It's nonsense!

d) Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are the RPG-equivalents of HALO - mediocre games which gain some notoriety for the mere fact that they are 360 exclusives. ASH, on the other hand, has just been slammed from all angles, and that has (IMO) one of the top video game composers in the industry right now.

e) You don't know anyone interested in XIII? Really? Go to any website showing a video, look at the comments from ppl who are stoked. All my XBOX friends freaked when they heard it's coming to their platform. Not to mention that for someone so uninterested in the title, you seem to contribute and read the XIII forums alot. Very interesting..... *chin-rubbing*

And don't tell me magazine buzz isn't what it once was, 1) the game isn't anywhere near completion! and 2) every new picture, every now motion cap, every new detail to come out is covered by famitsu, and I've seen more coverage alot in American mags.

In the words of a great man, "I find your lack of Faith disturbing." Well, just poorly supported and contradictory. Speaking of which, sorry for contradicting my "conciseness is a virtue" thingy. You just leave so much to be answered.

[Wolf Kanno]

Its been a very long day and its the beginning of a very long week for me so I will just add my :twocents: real fast. I am sorry for misspelling and grammar but its 2am here and

dude, conciseness is a virtue!

I rant, you should be lucky I at least try to follow proper grammar and spelling.

a) How does SE not stand by their games? All I've heard from the FFXII team and Wada is how proud they are of how the game has done commercially and critically. What are you talking about?

The article I posted about Wada, is actually in relation to the poor sales of The World Ends With You. One of the most innovative titles to come out of SE since its inception. The game did terrible in Japan, though it has apparently done well in every where else.

I guess I should rephrase this statement, the teams care but Wada only see's the numbers it seems.

b) How has SE lost its artistic soul when you have constantly praised the artistic qualities of the latest game in the series? The glaring contradictions in your premises are confusing!

Matsuno team has done a wonderful job, Division 1 did good by The World Ends With You, and I hope by the gods that Sigma Harmonics does in fact see its way over here, but the Compilation has been crap since day one imo. I blame it on the very fact that SE is trying to rewrite the game, not for the sake of story but as a means to create more sequels. Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus are great offenders. The thing that ticks me off is that it wouldn't be hard to do it right.

Many of the FF sequels have been pretty bad except for the Ivalice games, but the team had the foresight to set their game up for the possibility for sequels, mostly cause XII was a prequel to begin with...

c) All I said is that Toriyama knows how to make fun games. The min-games and in-story-minigames in VII added fun variety. Say what you want about X, but CTB was interesting and fun (despite obvious party-switch-to-weakness-target mechanics). X-2, while widely panned for its girl power theme (I won't play it) has received universal praise for its battle system. RW is a fun game I love to just sit down and play.

The mini-games are fun in VII, I will admit. I can't make comment on X but I will stand by my past arguments (and even your comment seems to agree with me though you're willing to forgive more than me ), X-2's is overrated and has several flaws, its counted good cause it was the highlight of a game very few wanted (at least the version we got). I cannot say anything about RW, though truth be told I want to play it. Course, I've heard the story is not very Matsuno...

d) Some interviews were before he left the company. One such was when Kitase was asked if he would remake FFIV, he said you'd have to ask Hiromichi Tanaka, as he directed that one. Tanaka was tapped to direct FFXI, because it was supposed to be a classic FF world, and he was responsible for those early FF games. This is exemplified by his director and executive role in the remakes of FFIII and IV, which he was attributed to having directed them originally. In one article, he describes coming up with the world of swords and sorcery that was the basis for the first FF's along with Koichi Ishi, along with whom the 2 went on to create the Seiken Densetsu series. Akitoshi Kawazu has repeatedly been attributed to directing FFII by others and himself, and the similarities to the SaGa series are apparent.

Sakaguchi is credited as a Designer in the original titles, reading around on the net, it seems he is not actually attributed to directing but a director is never mentioned. Tanaka and I believe Ishi are credited as scenario writers but not designers. I also don't see how Kitase would know about the development of titles that were made before he officially joined. Tanaka is commonly cited as Co-designer along with Sakeguchi in regards of III and IV.

There are no reasons to assume Sakaguchi was in any creative or developmental responisibilities in those games other than the title. American Pseudo-FF-purists (the cliche organization insisting IV and VI are the best) have falsly attributed him as an icon, when the people who came to replace him (Kitase, Nomura, Nojima), filled in roles he himself never fulfilled. To add even more irony, one of the 2 documented times he had creative input was FFVII! The evil behemoth despised by the same fans who idolize him! It's hilarious! It's nonsense!

The amusing thing about this is how you "assume" Sakaguchi had no creative control though your evidence involves people be asked what they personally gave to the project. I also don't remember any remakes being announced for IV before Sakaguchi left.

You also admit to a bias against him due to obnoxious fanboys who insist he is a "god and the father of FF" and use it as a means to demean your favorite games. In the end you are just adding to the idea of "erasing Sakaguchi from the story". I'm not saying he single handedly programmed, wrote, composed, and generally willed the FF series into being but I hardly believe that a man who has been credited for so many title did nothing and still got credit for it. That's unrealistic and I feel your bias is blinding your better judgement (the irony of me saying this to you is astounding ).

Square (and Squenix for the technical people) has not even mentioned the man once since he left in 2004. The last time anyone from any developement team mentioned him was the XII staff in an interview back in 2004. The fact that the media never asked about his departure in great detail makes me feel SE may have told the media it was a taboo subject. Course this all specualtion and I am not really putting this out for evidence but just a hypothetical discussion.

Bolivar, I generally respect your opinion and look forward to your thoughts but I'm finding it hard to see merit in your opinion on this, due to your personal bias in regards to this topic concerning Sakaguchi.

d) Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are the RPG-equivalents of HALO - mediocre games which gain some notoriety for the mere fact that they are 360 exclusives. ASH, on the other hand, has just been slammed from all angles, and that has (IMO) one of the top video game composers in the industry right now.

Nobuo doesn't mean "must buy" and your statement sound more like your personal opinion rather than the general view of the gaming community. I know the critics are not wild about his titles but they all scored pretty well, considering they only had Sakaguchi's name on them. Still, I find in most forums I lurk in and people I talk to that his games are actually pretty good. Lost Odyssey being considered an underappreciated gem of a title.

e) You don't know anyone interested in XIII? Really? Go to any website showing a video, look at the comments from ppl who are stoked. All my XBOX friends freaked when they heard it's coming to their platform. Not to mention that for someone so uninterested in the title, you seem to contribute and read the XIII forums alot. Very interesting..... *chin-rubbing*

I did, most were interested about... 2 years ago from the threads and forums I visited. Like XII, the long development time is making people lose interest. I also don't know too many people happy with the multi-platform jump but that's another topic entirely. Most people I talk to, in real life or online, are not terribly excited for it.

The XIII forums get a few new threads when information finally appears but the threads die pretty quickly with only a few posts. I post in there cause I enjoy specualtion and because my opinion of XIII is still undecided though I choose to speak on my default view of pessimism and skepticism. I find it amusing that someone who doesn't really care (me) has put more effort into discussing the title than someone who says they actually are looking forward to it (you)

And don't tell me magazine buzz isn't what it once was, 1) the game isn't anywhere near completion! and 2) every new picture, every now motion cap, every new detail to come out is covered by famitsu, and I've seen more coverage alot in American mags.

I've seen little in American mags, a picture here and there with a small print about a demo or something being released... but the game hasn't had a real article in over a year and we've seen more info in the last few months and not a damn person has covered it. Hell, Dissidia was released last month and the last time it was mentioned was months ago when most of the mags talked about the TGS show. SE doesn''t sell magazines anymore, but then another factor to remember is that internet news is far more popular. Still, I read 3 year old interviews concerning the project tonight, and most of it was new information. Like Noctis' design not being final for Versus and the role the Crystal plays in the world of XIII. Most sites didn't seem to have this information and the source was credible (Famitsu interviews).

In the words of a great man, "I find your lack of Faith disturbing." Well, just poorly supported and contradictory. Speaking of which, sorry for contradicting my "conciseness is a virtue" thingy. You just leave so much to be answered.

I try my best to entertain you

I would leave you with a short story about blind optimism but instead I will leave you a quote by President Theodore Roosevelt:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

I believe this is something that should be applied to anything you love, so excuse the political tone. I just feel that standing by unquestionably to something is wrong, and I do not see my criticism to be merely a lack of faith but rather my duty as a fan. Perhaps I am wrong and just misguided and bias but, my thoughts allow those who are not to see a new light on the subject and determine for themselves the truth buried under the muck of fanatisicm and jaded perspective. For this reason, even if I am wrong, I accomplished what I had set out to do.

[Bolivar]

^ Dude, first of all if you feel you have to fulfill a "duty" as a fan, you're putting way too much effort into it. I check up on and buy games I find interesting, play them, if they're good I like them for the reasons they are, and if it's bad I move on. I don't stand by SE unquestionably, I could go down the list of things I don't like, but I choose not to spend my time complaining about video games on the internet because it's not my stizzyle (that's style).

I again ask how you can say SE has lost their artistic soul when in your last post for cryin' out loud, you admit there's plenty of games they've released recently that have artistic values. Even their thinly veiled attempts to milk franchises, remakes of Dragon Quest IV, V, VI and Final Fantasy III and IV, have great artistic qualities to them, in the fashion they're remade.

As far as Wada and his cut-throat business practices, that's just him being a CEO, trying to be a good businessman. I'm not defending him blindly, it scared the crap out of me when he suggested they start making western style games, but you have to understand that the company needs to stay afloat, or they won't be making any games at all.

Also, the article you posted said nothing about The World Ends with you, and seems more like a biased rant, as evidenced by the exhaustive diatribes on Atushi Inaba and Okami.

And I'm not blinded in bias against Sakaguchi. Hell, FFIX might be my favorite game in the series, and he had almost everything to do with that on the scenario and concept side of things. But when it comes to the original 6 Nintendo games, there isn't much evidence he had a whole lot to do with it. You're wrong, Tanaka has been credited for game design. What Sakaguchi has done is coordinated development by choosing skilled team members and laying out certain goals.

It's rediculous for you to call me out on merit, when all I did was list several pieces of evidence to support my point (that's what a sound argument is). You, on the other hand, have offered nothing but speculation that he must have had something to do with it in order to be credited. Also, your facts are wrong again, Kitase's "Final Fantasy Adventure" was released the same year as "Final Fantasy IV". And he could have heard about who directed it in a million different ways, please don't play dumb.

Please don't go on with your red-herring logical fallacies about "blind optimism", I've never said anything to warrant that. It just so happens that I enjoyed FFXII and Dragon Quest VIII thoroughly, I loved FFIII DS, Revenant Wings was a pleasure to sit down and playthrough, I have great respect for FFIV DS, TA2, and the War of the Lions port. And right now I'm playing through Dragon Quest IV DS and having a blast as I approach the end of the game. Is it wrong for me to have optimism about a publisher that has produced so many great games, in the last few years especially, that I have enjoyed? Is there really something wrong with that?

From the sound of things, they've released plenty of games recently that you yourself have enjoyed, so I ask again, what's the beef?

[Wolf Kanno]

First, I'm sorry for the long tiraded rant

^ Dude, first of all if you feel you have to fulfill a "duty" as a fan, you're putting way too much effort into it. I check up on and buy games I find interesting, play them, if they're good I like them for the reasons they are, and if it's bad I move on. I don't stand by SE unquestionably, I could go down the list of things I don't like, but I choose not to spend my time complaining about video games on the internet because it's not my stizzyle (that's style).

I'm sorry but you seem to be the first to come and stand by SE whenever they do something so I just wrongly assumed.

I again ask how you can say SE has lost their artistic soul when in your last post for cryin' out loud, you admit there's plenty of games they've released recently that have artistic values. Even their thinly veiled attempts to milk franchises, remakes of Dragon Quest IV, V, VI and Final Fantasy III and IV, have great artistic qualities to them, in the fashion they're remade.

It's easy to go back and remake something, but then again you may have a point. I am looking more for originality though and its been scarce until very recently. This is more about Wada and where he wants to take SE than the teams though.

As far as Wada and his cut-throat business practices, that's just him being a CEO, trying to be a good businessman. I'm not defending him blindly, it scared the crap out of me when he suggested they start making western style games, but you have to understand that the company needs to stay afloat, or they won't be making any games at all.

I understand the business applications but that is the wrong message to send to people. Its one thing to say it to your employee's but to announce it to the public seems downright stupid.

Also, the article you posted said nothing about The World Ends with you, and seems more like a biased rant, as evidenced by the exhaustive diatribes on Atushi Inaba and Okami.

I'm still looking for the actual reference that connects it. I read it here on the forums actually... I will try to get back to you.

And I'm not blinded in bias against Sakaguchi. Hell, FFIX might be my favorite game in the series, and he had almost everything to do with that on the scenario and concept side of things. But when it comes to the original 6 Nintendo games, there isn't much evidence he had a whole lot to do with it. You're wrong, Tanaka has been credited for game design. What Sakaguchi has done is coordinated development by choosing skilled team members and laying out certain goals.

When you make statements like this...

There are no reasons to assume Sakaguchi was in any creative or developmental responisibilities in those games other than the title. American Pseudo-FF-purists (the cliche organization insisting IV and VI are the best) have falsly attributed him as an icon, when the people who came to replace him (Kitase, Nomura, Nojima), filled in roles he himself never fulfilled. To add even more irony, one of the 2 documented times he had creative input was FFVII! The evil behemoth despised by the same fans who idolize him! It's hilarious! It's nonsense!

How am I suppose to take such statements when you decry a faction of fans you have time and time again fought with in the forums? If this was not meant to speak of a personal motive of discrediting Sakaguchi than what is this statement?

Anyway, I have yet to see anywhere where Tanaka has been the sole credit for game design and directing in IV on the web or in publication, I have yet to see an interview with the team that even really talks about IV's development back in the day. All I have to go on is your speculations concerning interviews about the title. I am not going to say Sakaguchi is the sole reason the game is there nor am I denying that Tanaka had a significant role in the development. All I am saying is that I feel you are reducing Sakaguchi's role without strong evidence.

The last statement is something I've been saying from the beginning of this thread. I never said Sakaguchi was the full creative force but his role was one in which he chose the team and guided them. He may not have written the titles or came up with the battle system, but he was the one who oversaw their development and told them where to go. Hence "vision" in the title. His interviews concerning VII has him stating that he has pushed the series into a more storytelling, cincematic direction and how VII was the first major leap to achieving this goal. In interviews concerning X, he talked about always pushing the team to try new things.

I don't know about you but I feel his role was important.

It's rediculous for you to call me out on merit, when all I did was list several pieces of evidence to support my point (that's what a sound argument is). You, on the other hand, have offered nothing but speculation that he must have had something to do with it in order to be credited. Also, your facts are wrong again, Kitase's "Final Fantasy Adventure" was released the same year as "Final Fantasy IV". And he could have heard about who directed it in a million different ways, please don't play dumb.

You listed nothing as evidence, no links or what not, just statements you heard or read somehwere and you are criticizing my credibility? I double checked and I will retract my statement about Kitase not working for Square back then but him saying Tanaka was the director doesn't prove that Sakaguchi had little influence on the project. I still find the whole circumstances for the statement to be fishy since I don't see why Kitase would be asked to direct a remake of a game he had no real part of.

Please don't go on with your red-herring logical fallacies about "blind optimism", I've never said anything to warrant that. It just so happens that I enjoyed FFXII and Dragon Quest VIII thoroughly, I loved FFIII DS, Revenant Wings was a pleasure to sit down and playthrough, I have great respect for FFIV DS, TA2, and the War of the Lions port. And right now I'm playing through Dragon Quest IV DS and having a blast as I approach the end of the game. Is it wrong for me to have optimism about a publisher that has produced so many great games, in the last few years especially, that I have enjoyed? Is there really something wrong with that?

From the sound of things, they've released plenty of games recently that you yourself have enjoyed, so I ask again, what's the beef?

This comes more down to personal taste and opinion so my statement may have been out of line but then again, asking me where my faith is without knowing my perspective is not any better. In the SNES and PS1 era Square consistently blew me away with their titles. They did not so in the PS2 era (at least for me) and looking at the new generation, I have not been impressed except for the most obscure side projects and Matsuno's Ivalice Team.

Basically, I don't feel SE is worth my money cause in 9 years they have created maybe three titles I truly love. In the PS1 generation, I practically own everything they did and all but a few were incredible experiences.

I don't count the ports or remakes like you do cause it seems silly to give kudos to a company for bringing out a past success. It would be like forgiving George Lucas for the Prequels and Indy 4 just because he announced tomorrow that he's re-releasing the original un-edited Star Wars trilogy in theaters.

My problem is that since the introduction of the PS2, I have played maybe one (technically two, but I have never played FFIII until the DS remake) game by SE that felt like a true, quality, Square title and that was XII. Everything else has felt to me like a movie with some gameplay slapped onto it. The gameplay is rarely good imo. The stories have all fallen short as well. I just feel that SE has been getting progressively worst as the years go by. The high points have been ports and remakes.

Yes, sometimes something comes by that impresses me but XII has still been the only title to really impress me, cause going through it, I was amazed that someone at Squenix could make them like they use to. Matsuno is gone though... His team still does well but I have always thought of them separately from the rest of the SE development teams, most likely cause its obvious from their titles that they are not just good designers but they are fans themselves. I'm not too far into TA2 and though I like the game so far, I do feel something is missing from it though :sad:.

I just feel that SE no longer has anyone who realizes how to make a game with excellent gameplay with an incredible story anymore. Its either one or the other but I rarely see both in one title anymore. I just have not been happy with the direction Kitase and Nomura have been taking the series in the last four years.