The Darkside of FF7

Everyone always talks about the good guys but how about we talk about what makes a great ff story the villians with out them there would be no game so lets talk about stuff like who is your fav ff villian and do u think that they should have been stronger on the game

of course i see sephiroth as the greatest bad guy out there he is just and all around bada** and we all know it i think he would be able to beat any of the villians from any ff game and he would look cool doing it come on a guy who can use a move like super nova and just destroy anything that gets in his path but i was very disapointed in ffac i think the ending made sephiroth just look like a coward i would have liked to have changed the ending to more of sephiroth wining and the part where he stabs cloud we all know he could have easily took his life well thats my opinion on the subby tell me what u think :)

Hojo to me was the true villain of FF VII. He was the true mastermind and manipulator behind all the evil of Shinra, even moreso than Rufus. His twisted and corrupt ideas [and their execution] made everything possible, is ultimately responsible for Sephiroth.

Sephiroth was nothing more than a [weak] final boss you had to beat just because he had a bunch of power. What makes Sephiroth different than most FF villains is that he has no personality and virtually no characterization at all [even less than the Emperor from FF II], making his character completely uninteresting. In terms of raw power, he seems weaker in comparison to some of the other FF villains and certainly doesn't demonstrate any motivation. In FFAC he further demonstrates his lack of character and personality, and I'm further convinced he's just another generic woman-haired villain [are the Japanese ever going to get tired of this cliche?] that lacks a true goal ["sailing the cosmos like your mother"? Give me a break]. Sure his goals might sound grand, but they lack ambition and motivation in their own conception.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I personally found Kefka's "let's destroy everything" more interesting because of the character that it's attatched to. Most people here will probably disagree with me though. :p

I think you should add punctuation.

yup Khalin i do disagree, in Crisis Core he gets more Character Development, though i also disagree with the original poster as Sephy was not Evil by any means the guy just went mad, and madness and evil are not the same thing but often one is confused for the other... i do have to agree though that Hojo was the true evil behind everything, Hojo was not a mad scientist, he was just straight out evil he cared for no one or anything beyond his work, the man had no morals...
Mirage is right try to use some puncuation, just because it's the internet does not mean you have to forget everything you learned in school, otherwise it just looks like incoherent babbeling, and it annoys others having to read lines multiple times to try and figure out what youre getting at...

Well, isn't one of the revelations in Final Fantasy VII that the Sephiroth seen throughout the game is actually Jenova? That would mean that you only actually see Sephiroth in flashbacks and at the Northern Crater. Do people respect Sephiroth as a villain while counting all of the appearances of Jenova or do they just mean the person in the flashbacks and his appearance in the final dungeon?

As Elly mentioned, you see more character development for Sephiroth in other games, but Sephiroth has always had a large following for some reason.

technicaly according to the Ultimania Sephiroth was actualy so powerful that he was in control of the JENOVA pieces and not the other way around as many seem to specualte... so, considering Sephiroth was more powerful than a planet destroyer is kinda impressive, but he also had the benefit of absorbing the knowledge from the lifestream which made him that powerful in the first place... as for the fight in AC he was mearly in control of Kadaj, a posession of sorts, and FFVII has shown on multiple occasions that Sephiroths puppets just aren't that strong...

In the original game, none of the characters, including Sephiroth, had much development. However, I'm sure if the a remake (not to get off-topic) ever happened, more development and references/flashbacks to the rest of the compilation would be made to make up for the lack of character backgrounds and development.

Sephiroth had quite a bit of character development in the Kalm flashback. He talks about not remembering a hometown, not having a family, how Dr Gast was his only father-figure and how he left. Sephiroth definitely came across as a very very lonely individual, stuck in the shell of a super-warrior. Then he comes across the Jenova project and his mind completely cracks.

Sephiroth's aura of invincibility is quite justified. His name is almost mentioned from the beginning of the game. And always as the greatest SOLDIER who ever lived. Then there comes the Shinra buildng where he (technically Jenova, although you don't know that at that stage) massacres the guards and the President. There's a huge build-up before you even know what he looks like. It kind of reminds me of Voldemort from Harry Potter, in that he is an invisible, malignant presence until much later in the book.

And Sephiroth's music is fairly epic. Definitely not the greatest song in the world (as some fanboys insist), but the entire composition gives an impression of an immensely powerful dark force. His look is also quite intimidating, especially when he walks through a WALL OF FIRE in Nibelheim. And he carries a six-foot long katana. That definitely suggests some serious power.

So I don't think Sephiroth's reputation comes from one single facet of the game, but as a combination of the whole. Kefka cannot compare merely because technology has created such an advantage for Sephiroth that he cannot overcome it. Although I don't understand how a character whose entire reason for wanting to destroy the world is because he is completely mad and therefore he can is deeper than someone who is a human experiment who has been lied to for his entire life. Oh, and who has the genetic make-up of an alien.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Sephiroth had quite a bit of character development in the Kalm flashback.

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No offense, but one flashback does not a character make. I don't think this little teaspoon of "character history" counts as characterization.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Sephiroth's aura of invincibility is quite justified. His name is almost mentioned from the beginning of the game. And always as the greatest SOLDIER who ever lived.

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Yeah... trust me, I remember. Repeating dry japanese cliches without foundation doesn't count as characterization in my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

There's a huge build-up before you even know what he looks like.

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I wouldn't have had any problem if they had kept it this way. :D

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

And Sephiroth's music is fairly epic. Definitely not the greatest song in the world (as some fanboys insist), but the entire composition gives an impression of an immensely powerful dark force.

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I can't really agree on this one either. I found his theme pretty annoying, unfortunately. I think the synth instruments they chose for it were poor. Granted, this team was very new to the Playstation's capability of music, but I'm just throwing it out there.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

His look is also quite intimidating, especially when he walks through a WALL OF FIRE in Nibelheim. And he carries a six-foot long katana. That definitely suggests some serious power.

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Again, I don't mean to sound offensive but I just don't find it very intimidating to see a woman-haired freak walk through fire with a six-foot-katana. Maybe I've watched too much anime, but silly Japanese cliches like this are "sprinkled" in animes all the time. There are still many ways to make a character seem intimidating, but I do not find this to be one of them.

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Originally Posted by Elly

yup Khalin i do disagree, in Crisis Core he gets more Character Development

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Oh, that's alright Elly. I'll concede this point to you because I actually haven't played Crisis Core, so you're probably right about that one. I'm pretty much just going off of FF VII itself and info related directly to this game without any other outside information. I guess since you bring this up, I'll clarify that as far as FF VII goes [not counting Crisis Core or any of the other FF VII spin-offs that he appeared in], he didn't get much characterization at all, which I just found a bit annoying. I don't think I'll say it was due to technology limitations either, because instead of wasting their time on annoying, ridiculous minigames [and there were an awful lot of them] and unimportant plot twists like Yuffie [sorry, I'm still not a fan], Square could've been using all of that space to sew some more characterization in for characters that are actually important to the story [like Sephiroth!]. They had 3 entire discs for goodness' sake.

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Originally Posted by Elly

i do have to agree though that Hojo was the true evil behind everything, Hojo was not a mad scientist, he was just straight out evil he cared for no one or anything beyond his work, the man had no morals...

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Yeah. I actually think it was a good idea for Square to place him as a boss in the end-game time frame, since it certainly elevates some importance with him. It shows that they didn't lose focus on what many would consider to be the true villain here. Although this is off-topic, but they probably should've made him at least somewhat difficult to kill.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

Well, isn't one of the revelations in Final Fantasy VII that the Sephiroth seen throughout the game is actually Jenova?

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Correct. You technically never see the "real" him until you get to the crater [not counting the flashback].

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Originally Posted by Roogle

As Elly mentioned, you see more character development for Sephiroth in other games, but Sephiroth has always had a large following for some reason.

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You see so little of Sephiroth's actual character [again, a 10 minute flashback does not a character make], that it's odd to see that so many people like Sephiroth. However, being the forum community person I am, I noticed that generally the audience that enjoys Sephiroth are either young girls that usually tend to have this thing about CloudxSephiroth [but not always], or young boys that seem to have a fascination with woman-haired villains that wield odd-looking katanas and walk through fire. I'm aware that not all Sephiroth fans are in those categories, so no need to remind me!

And in defense of Kefka: At least he managed to do a huge number on the world [creating a post-apocalyptic environment] and kill more than one important character before biting the dust. Also, his personality in the entire game is quite present. However, Kefka still isn't my favourite FF villain, and I was only naming him as an example. There are still better ones than Kefka in my opinion.

Sephiroth = Ultimecia

If you look at all the end bosses in Final Fantasy then you see that most of them have God like powers and have become something more than they're charcter was originally. Like Ultimecia,Necron or Jecht they are not mere mortals. Also the final bosses might not appear until the very end and only appear in the narrative in flashbacks Sephiroth is a slight exception. The charcter is cool because we see him as a human before the end giving him more depth and i'm sure certain people identufy with his character and his insanity upon finding out who he is. He is the quintessential pin up manga bad guy with a big smurf off sword.

I honestly don't perceive any depth with Sephiroth's character. The fact that he started out "normal" doesn't seem to add very much at all. In FF VII alone, he had extremely limited overall characterization and thus struck me as rather dry and uninteresting. Sorry, I don't want to come off as a hateful pross or anything here, I just don't think I really enjoy anything about Sephiroth. :(

Sephiroth as a character just didn't click very well with me. As I played the game, I was sorta filled with apathy about him.

I don't know what more you need in order to hate him. He wipes out an entire village of innocent people in a tantrum and kills a beloved member of your party - along with other people at whim. He's completely merciless. I couldn't wait to destroy him!

Super Nova is uncalled for, though.

I don't care what anyone says, Sephy was bad ass and always will be :D

I always found ShinRa company as a whole pretty ruthless, the way they destroyed an entire sector to kill one group of terrorists (with about 5 members in it) and the general 'we will control the world with our vast army' dictatorship feel.

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Originally Posted by Gullick

I don't care what anyone says, Sephy was bad ass and always will be :D

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Haha.

If they wanted it to look like a woman so badly, they should've just made it a woman! Attention: Sephiroth needs a personality - STAT!

In terms of "badass"... I don't think Square goes for this image very much at all. We mostly see: Vile, elegant, ruthless, villanous, insane, devious schemer, but yet I can't think of one that had "badass" as the primary image focus. I certainly don't think Sephiroth looks very badass to be honest. Aside from the woman-hair aspect, Sephiroth seems to be the one least-accomplished FF villains in the series. Most of them manage to wreak heavy destruction of some sort before they're finally defeated, but Sephiroth did very little. He almost had something going with Meteor, but it was countered. I don't think torching a small town or killing Aerith really count as "heavy destruction" either.

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Originally Posted by Gullick

I always found ShinRa company as a whole pretty ruthless, the way they destroyed an entire sector to kill one group of terrorists (with about 5 members in it) and the general 'we will control the world with our vast army' dictatorship feel.

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They are! Evil corporations are generally shockingly ruthless. For some reason, I've always liked the "evil offices" concept in a lot of video games/anime/movies/etc.

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Originally Posted by Gullick

I always found ShinRa company as a whole pretty ruthless, the way they destroyed an entire sector to kill one group of terrorists (with about 5 members in it)

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That part is so horrifying. =O

ok i agree with all of you...yes i know that not everyone likes sephiroth and thats all cool with me...i know that in the ff univivse there are alot of crazy badass villians and good guys and i relize that some of them if not most of the could destroy sephiroth with out even breaking a sweat...one reason i love ff7 so much is because it got me threw alot of cray :bou::bou::bou::bou: hat has happened in my life when i was younger i do think ff7 was a great game but i do think there was alot of flaws yes i agree that there should have been more story than mini games and i strongley agree that sephiroth could have had much more of a story than just im crazy/mad and i hate everything because i was lied too...so anyways you guys pick then next villian we talk about we dont just have to talk about ff7 and thanks everyone for your opinions :)

also sry about the run on sentences and errors i suck at languge so i guess plz dont diss on that :(

but thanks for dealing with it

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Originally Posted by Rain The Unknown

ok i agree with all of you...yes i know that not everyone likes sephiroth and thats all cool with me...i know that in the ff univivse there are alot of crazy badass villians and good guys and i relize that some of them if not most of the could destroy sephiroth with out even breaking a sweat...

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Aw, I wouldn't go as far as to say that. I probably sound like the chief of Anti-Sephiroth police. Sephiroth is obviously, far from weak, and certainly holds more power than a few of the FF villains, it's just not something I could call substantial. Probably because Meteor itself was a summoning, not a direct doing of his own powers. There's a definite difference. Also, the length of time involved in summoning it is a detriment...

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Originally Posted by Rain The Unknown

one reason i love ff7 so much is because it got me threw alot of cray :bou::bou::bou::bou: hat has happened in my life when i was younger i do think ff7 was a great game but i do think there was alot of flaws yes i agree that there should have been more story than mini games and i strongley agree that sephiroth could have had much more of a story than just im crazy/mad and i hate everything because i was lied too...so anyways you guys pick then next villian we talk about we dont just have to talk about ff7 and thanks everyone for your opinions :)

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Actually, it's great that you can say and admit this, because aside from my dislike for Sephiroth, I agree with you on all of these points. Despite my chief complaints [which you've all heard me go on and on about], I actually did enjoy FF VII a lot. Even though I dock things and nitpick endlessly, ultimately I'm looking at all of the positive. Valkyrie Profile [for example] had a lot of dropped plot-threads and incomplete background stories on all of the Einherjar [although they were all extremely unique, I don't think their histories were explained enough. I wouldn't encourage the game going off-track with too much extraneous information, but I think the game would've been fine if it had completed the stories on all of the Einherjar]. It also had questionable voice acting [some of it was good, but some of it was unacceptable]. However despite these faults, I felt the positive aspects of Valkyrie Profile far out-weighed the negative aspects, no question.

I apologize for going off-track, but I felt I had to give an example. And I felt the need to clarify that despite these major faults, FF VII was still a good game.

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Originally Posted by Rain The Unknown

also sry about the run on sentences and errors i suck at languge so i guess plz dont diss on that :(

but thanks for dealing with it

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Don't worry about it, it's not really a problem. Even though Mirage slid in the little joke about needing punctuation, for the most part I don't think anybody here will let petty things like language barriers/etc. distort our opinion of someone.

Also, I think posting on forums and reading everyone's posts is actually a good way to help develop language skills as well as general articulation and wording, and also helps with vocabulary.

Onto a villain I liked. Let's see, when I think of all the FF villains up-to-date lined up, I really think that Kuja was one of my favourite villains. He gave an excellent demonstration of power and intellect, as well as being extremely manipulative and calculating. The manner in which his magical powers were presented as well [this may seem minor to most people, but it actually matters to me] was quite cool. Of course, he also has the woman-hair thing going on, but for some reason it actually didn't bother me. I'm not sure why, because it usually bugs me to death [being the anime artist I am and my passion for it, I can't help but be extremely picky about character designs]. I'm also not really much of a fan of Kuja's clothing from the front, though from the side and the back it looks cool. It looks cool from the front as well, as long as you ignore the lower half [seriously, the lower half of his outfit is a bit disturbing]. I gotta say that I loved the design for Trance Kuja, and the demonstration of power [laying waste to Terra] was awesome, and it's kinda cool that he's the only person powerful enough to use Ultima [it gives the spell a lot more meaning in my opinion].

From my understanding however, not many people here seem to like Kuja that much, though I could be wrong [I doubt it].

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Originally Posted by Khalin

From my understanding however, not many people here seem to like Kuja that much, though I could be wrong [I doubt it].

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You're definitely wrong. xD Kuja, as IX itself, never seems to be expected to be popular. Everybody thinks VI and VII are the most popular games and Kefka and Sephiroth are the most popular villains, but no. Final Fantasy IX and Kuja will win pretty much any given poll that includes them in these forums. (well, not all of them, but he'll do well anyway).

i agree kuja was a great villian he was very powerful and he did some epic things in the game.....yeah his outfit was a bit weird but still a great part to ff9....ff8 was also one of my favs i really like the story in alot of ways well really like the story on all of them...exept and this is my opinion i was not a fan of ff10-2 but it had its good points and im being very random and jumping all over the place a villian i did not like was seymore on 10 he just would never die and he just got annoying to me...

Oh? I guess I was wrong. Usually, people don't end up liking the same things I like, so I guess it's a pleasant surprise. I thought Kuja was cool, despite his odd outfit.

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Originally Posted by Rain The Unknown

a villian i did not like was seymore on 10 he just would never die and he just got annoying to me...

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I hate Seymour!

yea i dont know how anyone could like seymore and i hated yu yevon that was a pretty gay fight just killing your summons and its was so easy ff10 had a good story on some parts i thought and i loved playing blitzball for the longest time i wished the would come out with an all blitztball game i could play blitzball for hours and hours and not get bored

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Originally Posted by Khalin

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

And Sephiroth's music is fairly epic. Definitely not the greatest song in the world (as some fanboys insist), but the entire composition gives an impression of an immensely powerful dark force.

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I can't really agree on this one either. I found his theme pretty annoying, unfortunately. I think the synth instruments they chose for it were poor. Granted, this team was very new to the Playstation's capability of music, but I'm just throwing it out there.

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Are you referring to One-Winged Angel or this song: YouTube - Sephiroth - Sephiroth Theme (I don't actually know what the name of this song is, but it is the one that is played during the Kalm flashback). Because I am referring to the latter, not the former (and I'd probably agree with you on that score).

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Are you referring to One-Winged Angel or this song: YouTube - Sephiroth - Sephiroth Theme (I don't actually know what the name of this song is, but it is the one that is played during the Kalm flashback). Because I am referring to the latter, not the former (and I'd probably agree with you on that score).

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I'm agreeing to the latter, I'm afraid. The track is called "Those Chosen by the Planet". Perhaps if they re-did it with modern synth, it would be a lot better, but I doubt it since Square has a nasty habit of butchering musics they remake. I mean honestly, look at what they did to the Illusionary World track in the DS version of FF IV [and the GBA remake for that matter; the SNES version of this track is by far the superior quality out of any FF IV incarnation they've created].

Khalin:

1) Sephiroth's appearance and personality can be considered cliche by now, but it was pretty original at the time. Remember that FFVII is a very old game.

2) Sephiroth was using Jenova's body to interact with you. So it's not true that he only appeared in flashbacks and at the end of the story. Because he was there, speaking and interacting with the characters all the time. The fact he was using Jenova's body to do it, is a mere detail.

3) Don't get me wrong, but I have the impression you read too much forum-debates about Sephiroth, where the haters state that "he only k1lled a flower g1rl!!1" or "he only destr0yed a v1llage!!1one!", and you forgot everything he actually did in the game.
Sephiroth did a lot of things. But there are many FFVII-haters who ignore it, and you shouldn't go by what they say.
Examples of his accomplishments that are ignored by the haters are: He killed everyone in the Shinra Building and Shinra Cargo Ship(while using Jenova's body), manipulated the party in giving the Black Materia to him, screwed Cloud's mind, was the responsible for all the chaos caused by the Weapons and Meteor, held back Holy(the only thing able to destroy Meteor), created a barrier around the Crater, absorbed tons of Lifestream, absorbed the Black Materia(you can see it attached to Safer Sephiroth's body), summoned Meteor(that destroyed Midgar), killed lots of people with Geostigma, etc.

Eh?

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Khalin:

1) Sephiroth's appearance and personality can be considered cliche by now, but it was pretty original at the time. Remember that FFVII is a very old game.

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It was only new to the video game scene. His appearance has been cliche in anime for a long, long time. This started long before FF VII was even conceived. The only reason why I know this is because I used to watch a lot of fan subbed anime at the time.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

2) Sephiroth was using Jenova's body to interact with you. So it's not true that he only appeared in flashbacks and at the end of the story. Because he was there, speaking and interacting with the characters all the time. The fact he was using Jenova's body to do it, is a mere detail.

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Yes, I'm aware of this. I'm not sure what your point is. I was implying that the only teaspoon of personality that you get from him was through the dialogue in the flashback.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

3) Don't get me wrong, but I have the impression you read too much forum-debates about Sephiroth, where the haters state that "he only k1lled a flower g1rl!!1" or "he only destr0yed a v1llage!!1one!", and you forgot everything he actually did in the game.
Sephiroth did a lot of things. But there are many FFVII-haters who ignore it, and you shouldn't go by what they say.

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I'm grateful for your concern, but trust me, I'm not going by what they say. I'm going off of my personal experience with having played this game myself. I'm well-aware of everything he pulled off. My point is that it was lighter in comparison to some of the past FF villains. Even as far back as the Emperor from FF II who just decided to stop wasting time and destroy nearly every town in the game with a Cyclone. I'm aware of the fact that he killed people in the Shin-Ra building and the ship, as well as summoning Meteor and killing "flower girl".

Trust me, I played the game. I'm voicing my opinion based on how I felt about Sephiroth as a villain. I'm not trying to be rude, but you haven't really pointed out anything that I [or anyone else here] didn't already know. I will agree that Sephiroth haters don't extend much credit to him, however I think he's given far too much credit by fanboys. As for the Geostigma bit, I'm not really sure what to say to this. While I appreciate that they made a nicely CG-animated movie about FF VII [which allows us to get at least some voice/personality attatched to the characters we like], I really hated the "plot" for the movie with a passion, and I couldn't take it seriously. I thought the entire concept of the Geostigma was ridiculous, as was the attempt to find an excuse to slide Sephiroth into the movie. I won't even go into how annoyingly stupid Kadaj and those other two retards were.

I still stand by my opinion that Hojo was the true twisted and villianous mastermind among all the antagonists in FF VII, and he played a major role. For some reason, I just couldn't really respect Sephiroth's character. Of course, it may be due to my initial heavy dislike for him based on his cliche presentation and appearance, however I've seen other characters like that which ended up redeeming themselves with interesting characterization. In my opinion, Sephiroth had no characterization.

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Originally Posted by Khalin

It was only new to the video game scene. His appearance has been cliche in anime for a long, long time. This started long before FF VII was even conceived. The only reason why I know this is because I used to watch a lot of fan subbed anime at the time.

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Kefka's appearance and character was very cliche too, but you still liked him.

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Yes, I'm aware of this. I'm not sure what your point is. I was implying that the only teaspoon of personality that you get from him was through the dialogue in the flashback.

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Ah, okay.

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I'm grateful for your concern, but trust me, I'm not going by what they say. I'm going off of my personal experience with having played this game myself. I'm well-aware of everything he pulled off. My point is that it was lighter in comparison to some of the past FF villains. Even as far back as the Emperor from FF II who just decided to stop wasting time and destroy nearly every town in the game with a Cyclone. I'm aware of the fact that he killed people in the Shin-Ra building and the ship, as well as summoning Meteor and killing "flower girl".

Trust me, I played the game. I'm voicing my opinion based on how I felt about Sephiroth as a villain. I'm not trying to be rude, but you haven't really pointed out anything that I [or anyone else here] didn't already know. I will agree that Sephiroth haters don't extend much credit to him, however I think he's given far too much credit by fanboys. As for the Geostigma bit, I'm not really sure what to say to this. While I appreciate that they made a nicely CG-animated movie about FF VII [which allows us to get at least some voice/personality attatched to the characters we like], I really hated the "plot" for the movie with a passion, and I couldn't take it seriously. I thought the entire concept of the Geostigma was ridiculous, as was the attempt to find an excuse to slide Sephiroth into the movie. I won't even go into how annoyingly stupid Kadaj and those other two retards were.

I still stand by my opinion that Hojo was the true twisted and villianous mastermind among all the antagonists in FF VII, and he played a major role. For some reason, I just couldn't really respect Sephiroth's character. Of course, it may be due to my initial heavy dislike for him based on his cliche presentation and appearance, however I've seen other characters like that which ended up redeeming themselves with interesting characterization. In my opinion, Sephiroth had no characterization.

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Well, I had the impression that you didn't know some things, because you said:

"Most of them manage to wreak heavy destruction of some sort before they're finally defeated, but Sephiroth did very little. He almost had something going with Meteor, but it was countered. I don't think torching a small town or killing Aerith really count as "heavy destruction" either."

Right here, you ignored all the "heavy destruction" caused by the Weapons and Meteor. And I know this is your opinion, but... I want to understand why you think he "did very little", after watching the entire planet of FFVII being in complete chaos because of his actions(Weapons attacking cities, Meteor approaching, Shinra failing to stop both of them, and later, Geostigma infecting and killing the world's population, soon after Shinra and Midgar were completelly erradicated by his Meteor).
I just want to understand, why do you think all that was "very little".

And to tell you the truth, I find it harder to respect Kefka than Sephiroth. But that's just me.

Ah, and if you didn't like the convoluted plot of AC, I suggest you go watch ACC. Many plot points not explained in AC, are explained in the Complete version of the movie, and it's much easier to understand the story now.


Sorry if I sounded rude at some point. It wasn't my intention.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Kefka's appearance and character was very cliche too, but you still liked him.

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I actually have to disagree with that. The appearance of a regal clown? I don't see too many games or anime that have a primary antagonist that looks this way [anyone who thinks otherwise is free to spend a while on google to find villains that have this type of appearance. For every one that's pasted to me, I'll paste 10 Sephiroth look-a-likes]. As for his personality, he's a bit of a joke and a goofball, but in a demented way. This connection which is strangely more humane than what most FF villains display gives good connection to the audience in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Well, I had the impression that you didn't know some things, because you said:

"Most of them manage to wreak heavy destruction of some sort before they're finally defeated, but Sephiroth did very little. He almost had something going with Meteor, but it was countered. I don't think torching a small town or killing Aerith really count as "heavy destruction" either."

Right here, you ignored all the "heavy destruction" caused by the Weapons and Meteor. And I know this is your opinion, but... I want to understand why you think he "did very little", after watching the entire planet of FFVII being in complete chaos because of his actions(Weapons attacking cities, Meteor approaching, Shinra failing to stop both of them, and later, Geostigma infecting and killing the world's population, soon after Shinra and Midgar were completelly erradicated by his Meteor).

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Let's address this. First off, the destruction caused by the weapons was caused by the weapons, not Sephiroth. They were released by his doing yes, but let's not branch credit here. As for Meteor destroying Midgar, evidently a huge portion of the population of Midgar ends up surviving anyways [as shown in the FF AC movie, who proceed to build the city of Edge outside of Midgar's ruins], and for the most part this destruction doesn't really do a whole lot to change the face of the world or anything, unlike the Mist-infected world of FF IX or the World of Ruin brought about in FF VI by Kefka's recklessness with the three statues of the Warring Triad, as well as fooling around with his tower. One crushed city does not a destroyed-world make. Even the emperor of Final Fantasy II [arguably] wrought a heavy amount of destruction, despite the fact that you don't really get any attachment to all of the cities that are wiped out. Besides, in the end, Meteor ends up getting countered anyways, even though there are some casualties attached [as you show in your current signature].

As for Geostigma, you're going off-track from the game FF VII itself [which is what the discussion is about] and are trying to bring other things in here. On the issue of Geostigma, it's a failed world poison that I found a bit too disney-ish because it's easily cured by the released outflow of water that's been exposed to lifestream [which is actually supposedly mentally hazardous as explained in the first game] that cures Cloud's Geostigma, along with everyone else's.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

I just want to understand, why do you think all that was "very little".

And to tell you the truth, I find it harder to respect Kefka than Sephiroth. But that's just me.

Ah, and if you didn't like the convoluted plot of AC, I suggest you go watch ACC. Many plot points not explained in AC, are explained in the Complete version of the movie, and it's much easier to understand the story now.

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I have, but it didn't really change my mind on it to be honest. Those three extensions/manifestations-of-Sephiroth/whatever-you-wanna-call-it just bugged the hell out of me. They were annoying and had ridiculous personalities. The Geostigma concept was silly, especially seeing how easily it was cured [the way they slid that in was also a face-palmer, being that it was so simple that it could've been done at any time].

As for respecting Sephiroth, I explained my arguments and reasons stated above. And to that, I guess I'll have to add that even by the time FF VII had come out, I had already seen too many "Sephiroth"s. That general appearance combined with that personality archetype in general was [and still is, though to a slightly lesser extent] very prevalent in anime.

I'm not trying to be rude either, but I dislike Sephiroth for several reasons which I've already stated. It may sound redundant but, these reasons are there for a reason. Trust me, if I didn't have any issues with Sephiroth, I wouldn't dislike his character so much. I was a fan of Final Fantasies, RPG's in general, and anime [as well as the anime culture in Japan] long before FF VII came out. Not all, but a good portion of the people that I talk to who I feel overly-praise FF VII admit that FF VII was the first RPG they played [or at least one of their first]. A good amount of them say things along the lines of older FF games being "crappy" because they're too primitive/weren't designed for a powerful enough console or had inferior graphics or whatever, which drives me up the wall due to its hideous close-mindedness. However, I hope you don't mistake me for someone that hates FF VII. As I've stated in several topics, I really liked this game a lot despite all of my complaints about it, and it's nowhere near my bottom list.

Evry vill throught f history was desent in his/her own way. ill name a few ways

(SPOILER)ff4/ zemus was screwing ppls lives for years by temptation leading to mind controle.
ff6/ kefka was a friggen lunatic (NOF SAID)
ff7/ sephy was so misunderstood and he took his ****ed up life to the extreme
ff8/ (forgot name for some reason) she took controle of rinoa and edeas minds by linking to there powers.
ff9/ kuja wanted revenge towards his father and to wipe out his whole race.
ff10/ seymour, in my oppenion is the most misunderstood, if tidus and co wouod have butted out and let yuna marry the guy then all would be ok. (then just kill him wile he sleeps lol)
ffx-2/ shuyin wanted to bring back the love of his life and was heartbroken when yuna wasn't her. as was yuna when he wasn't tidus.

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Originally Posted by sir helix

ff7/ sephy was so misunderstood and he took his ****ed up life to the extreme

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This is the line that really bothers me. This "misunderstood business" just annoys me a bit. There are plenty of people that have it far worse than this nutcake and don't even up like murderers. Ultimately, this is just an excuse Sephiroth uses to indulge in his vengeful and wrathful nature, just like most cliche Japanese villains of this sort do. I think they should have given him much better motivation.

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Originally Posted by Khalin

I actually have to disagree with that. The appearance of a regal clown? I don't see too many games or anime that have a primary antagonist that looks this way [anyone who thinks otherwise is free to spend a while on google to find villains that have this type of appearance. For every one that's pasted to me, I'll paste 10 Sephiroth look-a-likes]. As for his personality, he's a bit of a joke and a goofball, but in a demented way. This connection which is strangely more humane than what most FF villains display gives good connection to the audience in my opinion.

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Oh please. There are tons of evil-clowns in fiction, and you know it.
Kefka is a one-dimensional cliche villain.

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Let's address this. First off, the destruction caused by the weapons was caused by the weapons, not Sephiroth. They were released by his doing yes, but let's not branch credit here.

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Then let's not give credit to Kefka for destroying the world, because the Statues did it for him. He just pushed them.
Let's not give credit to Kuja for killing a lot of people, because the Black Mages did it for him.
Give me a break.

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As for Meteor destroying Midgar, evidently a huge portion of the population of Midgar ends up surviving anyways [as shown in the FF AC movie, who proceed to build the city of Edge outside of Midgar's ruins], and for the most part this destruction doesn't really do a whole lot to change the face of the world or anything, unlike the Mist-infected world of FF IX or the World of Ruin brought about in FF VI by Kefka's recklessness with the three statues of the Warring Triad, as well as fooling around with his tower. One crushed city does not a destroyed-world make. Even the emperor of Final Fantasy II [arguably] wrought a heavy amount of destruction, despite the fact that you don't really get any attachment to all of the cities that are wiped out. Besides, in the end, Meteor ends up getting countered anyways, even though there are some casualties attached [as you show in your current signature].

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After Meteor, the world lost it's main source of energy(Mako), it's main government(Shinra), and was being infected by an uncurable disease.
Yes, Meteor DID "a whole lot to change the face of the world". You can read "On the Way to a Smile: Case of Barret" if you don't believe me.

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As for Geostigma, you're going off-track from the game FF VII itself [which is what the discussion is about] and are trying to bring other things in here. On the issue of Geostigma, it's a failed world poison that I found a bit too disney-ish because it's easily cured by the released outflow of water that's been exposed to lifestream [which is actually supposedly mentally hazardous as explained in the first game] that cures Cloud's Geostigma, along with everyone else's.

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ACC is canon to FFVII, and I will use it.
To a "failed"(lol) world poison, it did a pretty good job. And it was only cured after Sephiroth's will was gone.

Ah, and I found FFIX pretty disney-ish.

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I have, but it didn't really change my mind on it to be honest. Those three extensions/manifestations-of-Sephiroth/whatever-you-wanna-call-it just bugged the hell out of me. They were annoying and had ridiculous personalities. The Geostigma concept was silly, especially seeing how easily it was cured [the way they slid that in was also a face-palmer, being that it was so simple that it could've been done at any time].

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Maybe because you don't want to change your mind about it.

Wow, you really didn't understand the movie's plot. Geostigma couldn't be completely cured until Sephiroth's will was gone. This is why Cloud had to beat him first.

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As for respecting Sephiroth, I explained my arguments and reasons stated above. And to that, I guess I'll have to add that even by the time FF VII had come out, I had already seen too many "Sephiroth"s. That general appearance combined with that personality archetype in general was [and still is, though to a slightly lesser extent] very prevalent in anime.

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Well, you have the right to dislike a character for whataver reason.
But disliking him because of his looks, is the same as liking him because of his looks. It's shallow.

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I'm not trying to be rude either, but I dislike Sephiroth for several reasons which I've already stated. It may sound redundant but, these reasons are there for a reason. Trust me, if I didn't have any issues with Sephiroth, I wouldn't dislike his character so much. I was a fan of Final Fantasies, RPG's in general, and anime [as well as the anime culture in Japan] long before FF VII came out. Not all, but a good portion of the people that I talk to who I feel overly-praise FF VII admit that FF VII was the first RPG they played [or at least one of their first]. A good amount of them say things along the lines of older FF games being "crappy" because they're too primitive/weren't designed for a powerful enough console or had inferior graphics or whatever, which drives me up the wall due to its hideous close-mindedness. However, I hope you don't mistake me for someone that hates FF VII. As I've stated in several topics, I really liked this game a lot despite all of my complaints about it, and it's nowhere near my bottom list.

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I could be wrong, but I have the impression your problem is not with the character itself, but with his popularity and fanbase.

Well, why do you sound so upset? Let's not get too snappy here. Remember that your speech here [or text in this case] is for all to see.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Oh please. There are tons of evil-clowns in fiction, and you know it.
Kefka is a one-dimensional cliche villain.

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There are some yes, but in comparison to a character like Sephiroth, far less. The only other character of the sort that really comes to mind is the Joker from Batman.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Then let's not give credit to Kefka for destroying the world, because the Statues did it for him.

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There's a difference. His manipulation and use of the statues was direct action with direct intent, whereas the world's weapons getting loose was the consequence of a sequence of events. And don't forget General Leo, the people of Doma, some of the kindgom of Figaro, betrayal of Emperor Gestahl, the Thamasa, the "World of Ruin" that he created, towns/people that he killed with his "Light of Judgment" from the tower he constructed, etc. Also, a huge RPG fanbase voted Kefka as one of the "top ten villains of all time" which was demonstrated on Filter [G4 channel].

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Let's not give credit to Kuja for killing a lot of people, because the Black Mages did it for him.

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What about his attack on Alexandria or killing Queen Brahne? Or what about his destuction of the entire planet Terra? Or how about the Mist crisis he caused for Gaia? Those deserve credit as well.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

After Meteor, the world lost it's main source of energy(Mako), it's main government(Shinra), and was being infected by an uncurable disease.
Yes, Meteor DID "a whole lot to change the face of the world". You can read "On the Way to a Smile: Case of Barret" if you don't believe me.

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At this point I'm going to say you're getting off-track. If I recall, Mako was the source of energy for the technology in Midgar, whereas every other establishment in the game was a moderate one. As for the bit about Geostigma, Cloud was cured of it prior to Sephiroth being defeated. I admit that I haven't read all of this extra stuff that they decided to add onto FF VII several years after it came out, but I think this is severely off-track. Our discussion is about Sephiroth, not the add-ons to FF VII. Since this discussion pertains to Sephiroth, I'd prefer if we keep the discussion in-line here.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

ACC is canon to FFVII, and I will use it.

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Yeah it's canon, but I don't think it's really helping the cause right now.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Ah, and I found FFIX pretty disney-ish.

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So did I, but to an extent this "lighter" feel of the game was their intent, and I actually like that about it. Given the direction and tone they clearly had in mind for FF VII [which to me seemed to be a lot more serious], I thought the bit about the disease being magically cured with lifestream-infused rain was kinda silly. Also, Wasn't Cloud's Geostigma cured before Sephiroth's will was gone anyways?

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Maybe because you don't want to change your mind about it.

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Well, I'm not sure what to say to this. Of course I don't want to change my mind about it. You are right. But that's the point of this discussion, isn't it? The reason why I'm not changing my mind on this is because I don't feel that they've presented anything further to give me any reason to. For a time being I never really had much interest in all of the added-on FF VII "nonsense" [as some put it, though by using a harsher word], but I figured it couldn't really be bad at all. After briefly discussing some of it with Wolf Kanno, I decided to at least explore by trying some of it out and doing some research. But after doing so, I can't really say I disagree with Wolf Kanno on the matter of at least several of these expansions [or whatever one would call them], because while I end up enjoying the added content and the extra history, I feel a little disappointed with how it was executed and presented.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Wow, you really didn't understand the movie's plot. Geostigma couldn't be completely cured until Sephiroth's will was gone. This is why Cloud had to beat him first.

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Let's try not to be obsessive here. My understanding of this was different due to the above-statements I made on Cloud's Geostigma being cured prior to Sephiroth being defeated. Also, didn't the children have to step into the water that was in the church before it was cured anyways? I'm only going by off of what's displayed. Admittedly, I only saw the movie once but I remember something like that.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Well, you have the right to dislike a character for whataver reason.
But disliking him because of his looks, is the same as liking him because of his looks. It's shallow.

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Haha, yeah I know. Trust me, I'm aware. But as a rather picky anime artist, I tend to be really critical/nit-picky about character designs, and ones that I feel don't look so great or are overly done [cliche] tend to bother me a lot. Besides, you know this isn't my only reason for disliking Sephiroth. Aren't these last few forum posts a discussion about my reasoning for my dislikes about his overall character [what I felt was lack of characterization, poor motive, etc.]? Also, despite my harsh judgment on character designs, I'll end up liking the character anyways even if he's not a perfect-looking sexy bishounen. For example, I really detested Kefka's and Kuja's character designs for reasons stated in their respective forum categories here on EoFF. However, I rather much liked them anyways despite that. Another example is how I actually find Tidus to be kinda cute, but I just really dislike his character so much that looks don't really redeem him.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

I could be wrong, but I have the impression your problem is not with the character itself, but with his popularity and fanbase.

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Well, yes and no. Ultimately, my problem with him lies with his character, of that there is no doubt. I do have problems with Sephiroth fans that [I feel] overly praise him, which is basically his popularity and fanbase as you said, of course. But you have to understand that the only reason why I have an issue with it, is because I didn't like him in the first place. If I thought he was a really cool and awesome villain, I'd like him too. Trust me, I get just as annoyed with people that think DBZ And Naruto are "top notch animes", because that alone can really drive me up the wall. But this just comes down to tastes and preferences, so don't be so offended if someone voices an opinion and gives examples and explanation for it. I'm well-aware that my opinions aren't exactly popular or agreeable, so you don't have to get ready to Mount St. Helens here. Besides, I think it's bad for public imagery.

I had a similar problem with Omecle on the "GBA vs. DS version" in the FF IV forums. S/he had felt offended that I didn't speak very well of the fact that Square-Enix decided to make 3D chibi models for the characters in the game [I felt that chibi polygons created too much of an "unserious" look that just sort of irked me]. I also posted a youtube video showing a good example of what I meant, and they blew up. I'm pretty opinionated and might speak too firmly, but in the end it's just game discussion really. Despite how opinionated I am, I actually like and enjoy everyone here that I talk with, even the people I end up disagreeing with most often [like Vermachtnis and black orb for example] because they're pretty cool people. The only thing I've gotten worked up over on these forums is the "Smoking Bans" topic in the EoEO section.

now thats what i call an argument.
gotten a lil bit off topic but right on.

Well, I like the forums for discussion. And hey, at least it's something to do besides talking about candy and flowers all day. If I'm bored then I'll alt+tab to here and spend a few minutes writing up a post on something. Being argumentative/opinionated is part of my nature I guess, which probably comes from me growing up in a family of lawyers and my taking an interest in Forensics when I was in high school. I like discussion that's at least semi-intellectual though, because I think a lot comes off it and gets put out there for others. Some people might not like it but I think it's good for healthy discussion. I've also gotten to meet a lot of nice/smart people here too because of it.

As for going off-topic, when you're arguing it tends to happen. It's actually pretty hard not to branch off. In fact in most cases, it's a strategic part of the argument. Still, when you argue with someone I think you actually end up learning a lot about them.

Jenova was the true villian. Sephiroth was just a tool *jumps off cliff* Still love him though :love:

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Originally Posted by NeoTifa

Jenova was the true villian. Sephiroth was just a tool *jumps off cliff* Still love him though :love:

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Now that's another interesting way to see it. If you think about it, Jenova is actually a somewhat scary concept. It doesn't posses true reasoning or have any real goals outside of its instincts. It's almost like a kind of zombie. It's a pure slave to its instincts as a "living virus" and can only think of using its mimic abilities to get close to others so it can spread its disease.

I'm only assuming that once it finishes its task of spreading its virus and killing everything on the planet, it would attempt to hop planets again?

wow its been awhile since i have read some of the posts on hear we have go quite the dabate going on awesome awesome im mostly on the side of khilian tho alot of our veiw are the same

absolutely wrong though, NeoTifa, it states in the Ultimania that it was Sephiroth in control of JENOVA as opposed to the other way around... so JENOVA was the tool and Sephiroth the one using her...

Well I think she knows that. I don't think she literally meant that Sephiroth was a direct tool to Jenova when she said that, as we basically already covered that. I just assumed that she meant that Sephiroth was originally just a tool for Hojo and Shin-Ra, and that Jenova's creepy/scary-factor basically exceeds everyone else's in that game [which I pretty much agree with]. Honestly, Jenova is the creepiest entity in FF VII. I never really got any similar sense from Sephiroth.

Jenova is creepy in general. Case closed.

[/thread]

Was Jenova ever explicitly stated to be conscious during FFVII?
It always seemed strange to me that Sephiroth could be the one controlling her, but if she was actually never self-aware for the events of FFVII it all falls in to place perfectly.

I've never actually read the Ultimania, I suppose I should add that to my to do list.

Since this game's translation [at least as far as the Playstation version goes] was extremely shoddy, then I would consider reading the Ultimania a requirement to understanding the game. Honestly, so much is not explained, worded improperly, or just plain left out that I don't see how it's really possible for anyone to fully understand the game without reading the Ultimania.

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Originally Posted by NeoTifa

Jenova was the true villian. Sephiroth was just a tool *jumps off cliff* Still love him though :love:

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You can see JENOVA as the true evil cause JENOVA was the beginning of all evil in Final Fantasy.

But you can see ShinRa as the true evil as well, cause...well, I think there is no need to explain anymore.

However, Sephiroth is the one who controls the "Calamity from the Sky", JENOVA. Both are extremely intelligent creatures. Sephiroth doesn't think his "mother" JENOVA is dangerous for himself. But JENOVA acts instinctive like an animal. She would control him. But she cannot. You can see it that way (to explain it easier): Sephiroth just read Doctor Gast's documents (and he didn't knew that part of the books were false, cause Gast has not known that he discovered only JENOVA's shapeshifted fake body while he wrote this books), Sephiroth sure knew that JENOVA was an alien. Correct, not in the original Final Fantasy VII. But in Crisis Core we all see, that Genesis is the one who has told him. But then Sephiroth reads Gast's books (in my opinion the most important scene of the Nibelheim incident, so it is sad that it is only a memorial scene in the D.M.W.). Gast was like an idol for Sephiroth, so he just believed in what he's read in his books and so Sephiroth thought JENOVA was an ancient and no alien life form. And he thought the ancients betrayed other ancients, instead of living a nomadic life they started to live like a normal human being. And of course a Cetra is nothing than a human being, but with some special abilites and they are really intelligent - but they are nomads. And so Sephiroth thought the traitors became human and the Cetra's time was over. He didn't know that almost all Cetra were killed by the virus of the JENOVA cells and that the rest of them then began to live like human. And of course that's why they lost their abilities and finally became just human (so all human are the Cetra's descendants, they just have no abilities, but I think you all know that). Only a few people left, so Iphalna, the last true Cetra got a baby, a half-Cetra whose abilities wasn't as powerful as hers, but that's not important. Anyway, Sephiroth thought he had to take revenge because of his mother who was a Cetra (of course she wasn't). So he asked her "mother, what should I do?" and that's no problem, I mean she is Sephiroth "mother", so why shouldn't he talk to her? And JENOVA just whispered "they are evil. let them suffer. kill them." And Sephiroth did. But then his will became stronger and stronger. After fallen into the lifestream, after his body has vanished and he was resisting the flow of life itself because of his powerful will, he travelled trough this lifestream and he absorbed the ancient's knowledge in it. He became the master of the JENOVA cells and he just dominated her and her abilities. Then, he used the power of regeneration to regenerate himself at the northern crater. And I think the rest is clear.

But there is one thing in the Ultimania which is still misunderstandable. The man with the tatoo "1" is in the clone list/tatoo list (like Nanaki as well, but we all know that he is no clone of course), but it is not mentioned that he is no clone. This man is Sephiroth himself. The "number one of the JENOVA project: S". You can also know that because of three important lines in Final Fantasy VII itself. But I think, Square just thought that it is obvious, so they hadn't noticed anymore.

EDIT: Oh, and people who really think Sephiroth cannot control JENOVA, the lifestream (because he IS the most powerful being in Final Fantasy VII and the creature with the strongest will) or don't believe the Ultimania Omega shouldn't play Final Fantasy. They will never accept the truth. Almost everything other people wrote here in this thread is wrong.

well what did seph do that was evil? and references to him during the game?

ok initially he comes across as just a powerful member of soilder.
we later find out he is evil and burned a town down to the ground which happens to be tifas and clouds hometown.
we also later find out he is manipulating cloud making him even attack his own friends and nearly kill aeris.
he then does pretty much the ultimate evil and kills aeris whilst her back is turned. This to me was very bad I am to this day not over the fact aeris dies in the game.
At this point the party not is after him to stop him casting metoer (which by the way will only kill everyone on the planet) but to also take revenge for aeris, this point is made in the game numerous times.
Even rufus realises seph is 'too' evil, and the turks also promise to take seph out if they beat your party in their final battle.

of course hojo is evil as well as we find out from some flashbacks and what he does during the game.

there is numerous flashbacks showing seph's character background, of course some are optional like vincent's wife.

So this is a really interesting thread. And yes I'm on Khalin's side as well. You make very valid point and i basically agree with everything you said. I, too, feel that Sephiroth is moderately over-rated. I still like him but not nearly as much as some. But thanks this was fun to read XD

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Originally Posted by Khalin

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Originally Posted by sir helix

ff7/ sephy was so misunderstood and he took his ****ed up life to the extreme

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This is the line that really bothers me. This "misunderstood business" just annoys me a bit. There are plenty of people that have it far worse than this nutcake and don't even up like murderers. Ultimately, this is just an excuse Sephiroth uses to indulge in his vengeful and wrathful nature, just like most cliche Japanese villains of this sort do. I think they should have given him much better motivation.

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Perhaps you should take a breather and remember that this is just a game. A designer sat in his room and developed this character to be "misunderstood" and "take his f-ed up life to the extreme". It sounds to me as if you're trying to find a "rational solution" that doesn't exist for a fictional character to be the way he was written to be.

Also, if you need to read a guide to understand the game you just played then you should probably get your head examined.

I love these heated threads!

I'm sorry but I've got to do this:

"It doesn't get heated until you're in here!" Bow chicka bow bow

The "misunderstood" part never really struck me as any sort of justification for Sephy's rampage. The only person who really "misunderstood" Sephiroth was himself. He kept everyone else fairly clear on the subject. "My mother once ruled the planet, and I blame all you little insects for usurping her". It was kind of hard to misunderstand that after he told you for the dozenth time.

The big "misunderstanding" was in Hojo's lies and pitiful scientific results, coupled with the misunderstandings of Gast's original project. That information, along with the constant whispers of Jenova in his mind, finally cracked him and turned him into the psychotic world-destroyer.

No one else "misunderstood" him. Cloud and the rest of the gang know exactly what his motives are, and knew almost all of what Sephy went through. They just feel (correctly) that none of that justifies genocide.

The big theme of FFVII is not people being misunderstood by each other, but being misunderstood by themselves. Neither Cloud nor Sephy really understood what they truly were. Cloud finally comes to grips with the truth of his life, though, while Sephiroth does not.

Ok, I liked Sephy. He was pretty good, when I played it when I was a young whippersnapper I thought "Wow, this guy is badASS!"

But who did I like more? Even when I was a young tyke?
Shinra...or more specificly - Rufus.

These guys were badass to the core. I mean seriously. Rufus was this Dictator of the worlds biggest company whos reach and power stretched globaly. I remember playing the game and seeing everything Shinra had (Soldiers, the Turks, Cannons, Citys, Hojo, the people in the board meeting) and thinking "Yeah, I hope these guys gun down Sephy and sweep aside Cloud and his group of clowns!"

Every time I saw a victory for Shinra, or a powerful move (destroying Sector 7, capturing Cloud and Co, destroying the weapons) I was like "Yeah screw the world, Shinras here baby and they're gonna dominate you".
On the flip side, every time I had to face one of them or see them fall apart I died a little inside.

Best Shinra parts? Lemme list 'em in a random order from the top of my head.
1. President Shinra mocking AVALANCHE when you first see him
2. Destroying the Plate and seeing half of AVALANCHE get killed (that's what happens when you mess with Shinra)
3. Shinra getting killed and Rufus coming in to power
4. Rufus capturing them all and throwing them into Junon
5. When Rufus starts battling the Weapons with the might of Shinra. (not even the planet can beat Shinra)
6. Rufus DYING in the battle with Weapon. Yes, this was my favourate part, I loved Rufus but this was perfect. I know he didn't die before anyone says anything, but he should have...it was the final fall of the struggling Dictator, his expression and the way it happens is just perfect. (I thought AC was crap anyway but Rufus living just sent me into rages). After the part were Rufus died, Shinra was gone to me.

I think the last thing I want to say was said by this guy anyway:

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Originally Posted by Khalin

They are! Evil corporations are generally shockingly ruthless. For some reason, I've always liked the "evil offices" concept in a lot of video games/anime/movies/etc.

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Sephiroth just wasn't involved enough. He was never really there to harass you and cause you grief like Kefka and ExDeath were, he seemed to leave that to everyone else.

I'm not gonna spend alot of time reading every post so I don't know if this has bene said already (probably), but the true villain was Shinra itself, not Sephiroth.

Shinra blurred the line between a megacorporation and a government, and intentionally "kept the man down" so to speak, and was knowingly destroying the planet. Furthermore, they employed Hojo and created Sephiroth to be the way he was, so in a way you really can't blame him for what he did.

Look at what Shinra did to Corel, built them up with false promises and when things didn't work out, they burned the village down. Or Kalm and Nebelheim, two small wonderbread towns that were left in shambles because of Shinra.

By the way, Sephiroth wasn't a very interesting bad guy, he was a glorified nihilistic momma's boy. He was only somewhat interesting due to the fact that he in essence could control Cloud and the fact that he didn't just magically appear on the last disc *cough*FF8*cough*.

I read this thread from beginning to end. Well..I did skim through the heated debate, which was a good one btw.

Like many have stated, Shinra and Hojo were the main antagonists of the show. I think Sephiroth was just a show of his own. He wasn't the main antagonist....he was just there. Destroying the world, one day at a time. We gotta blame those who worked in the Jenova project; Hojo, Gast, and Lucrecia. In regards to his character development, I don't think there was any. He was mentally derranged and way too obsessed with his mother.

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He was only somewhat interesting due to the fact that he in essence could control Cloud and the fact that he didn't just magically appear on the last disc *cough*FF8*cough*.

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I may sound like a total fangirl for defending VIII but Ultimecia was trapped in her own time. Ze time kompression wouldn't allow her to magically appear in the first three disks and there are plenty of good reason why she shouldn't go back in time. If you believe in the theory that Ultimecia and Rinoa are one person, then its safe to say that if she was to go back in time to kill Squall & co., she would be then killing herself and ending her existence as we know it. She played it safe and became the master of puppets. WHO NEEDS TO SHOW UP NOWADAYS WHEN YOU HAVE MINDLESS HENCHMEN WORKING FOR YA? You wanna talk about random appearances? Necron. We NEVER heard about the guy until there was that surprise boss battle, which pissed me off because I thought I had finished the game, only to find out I was about to be raped by a...necron that was there to destroy Gaia. At least there was a build up to Ultimecia some time in the 3rd disk.

Back to topic, has anyone noticed that from VII - X, there has been some serious Oedipus complex among the antagonists? Especially the first one.

Sephiroth ---> Gast and Jenova
Seifer ----> Edea and Cid
Kuja ----> Garland...kinda...except there's no mother figure.
Seymour ---> his mom and Jyscal

I honestly cannot agree, sure Hojo, Jenova and Shinra did a lot wrong. But AVALANCHE could care less. Why? Sephiroth was infinitely more threatening. As soon as Cloud got word of Sephiroth's return, he took the reigns and focused on that. Shinra was if anything, your morally ambigious rival in the battle against Sephiroth. Hojo wanted to prove a theory, was proven right and that's as far as his interest went pretty much. Sephiroth is the guy that's as Cloud said "the true threat to the planet".

That's true but think about it, with no Shinra there would be no Sephiroth. Of course, with his immense power, he would be the bigger threat, but keep in mind that Shinra was the group that was playing around with the Jenova project. They are just as responsible for Sephiroth's actions as he is. When they realized that they couldn't control Sephiroth, that's when they took the initiative to try to stop him.

Then you might as well call Shinra from Final Fantasy X-2 to true villain of Final Fantasy VII.

I've never played X-2...I have yet to finish X...so I'm not a hundred percent sure what you're talking about. hahaha

simple, the ShinRa family in FFVII are descended from Shinra in FFX-2... yes this is official and on record in the FFX-2 Ultimania... no Spira and Gaia are not the same planet, but they are in the same universe...

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Originally Posted by Elly

simple, the ShinRa family in FFVII are descended from Shinra in FFX-2... yes this is official and on record in the FFX-2 Ultimania... no Spira and Gaia are not the same planet, but they are in the same universe...

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And is a complete retcon. A writer can ay anything after the fact. Kitase could say Aerith is a shape shifting dog if he wanted to. It doesn't make it any more accurate.

It's not a retcon if there wasn't anything contradicting it beforehand. It's a savig grace for the Planet as a whole, frankly. It's one thing for the entire world to fall under the dominion of an incompetent businessman in 40 years flat, but at least now this guy wasn't the first to think "hey, let's try to use this green light as energy." Rather his greatgreatgrandfather made landfall on this planet with that idea in mind specifically.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

Then you might as well call Shinra from Final Fantasy X-2 to true villain of Final Fantasy VII.

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That's like saying Hitlers mum was the true cause of WW2. Shinra didn't have evil in mind when he came up with the idea.

Btw, I can't believe they made that offical, that's bull. I like FF games being separate. Sounds like they just went; "oh he's called Shinra, let's mix up the games a little bit because I'm bored".

Wow seriously?

I agree with you, Crop. That is bull. They should have named him a different name rather than make a descendant from...Shinra in Gaia.

Now that I understand what's going on, no, the Shinra from FFX-2 shouldn't be blamed for what the company did in VII. And why even connect those two? We're talking about VII. Not the series as a whole. The character Shinra is in an alternative world many years ahead, or whatever the deal is. and he's an Al Bhed! oh man this just doesn't work out! There's not even the slighest of mention of Al Bheds in Gaia! Squarenix...you frustrate me.

Ugh. That gives me another reason not to play X-2.

Jaffer, no hard feelings ya? We just have two different definitions of what a villain is. =D I mean...yeah I do consider Sephiroth a villain...a very strong one. But I do feel he's given too much credit for the destruction he's caused. I believe that the manipulator behind a strong powerful villain has the same if not more responsibility for the world's destruction and you see this manipulator\puppet relationship in many games (at least the ones I know about).

IV = Golbez and Kain
VII = Shinra and Sephiroth
VIII = Edea\Seifer and Ultimecia
IX = Garland and Kuja
X = Yevon and the Maesters

Kuri you have it backwards, the ShinRa family of Gaia (FFVII) are descended from Shinra of Spira (FFX-2), Spira came before Gaia, the ShinRa family are far descendants of the Al Bhed... Shinra from Spira designed the technology to harvest the energy of the Farplane as a source of power, the same tech used later by ShinRa Electric Power Company to harvest the power of the Lifestream in Gaia...

Sephiroth was the biggest threat simply because he could control Jenova, though the cause of that is due to Hojo's meddeling with his DNA in utero...

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Originally Posted by ReloadPsi

Sephiroth just wasn't involved enough. He was never really there to harass you and cause you grief like Kefka and ExDeath were, he seemed to leave that to everyone else.

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Now ExDeath was an object to be feared.You spend your whole first half of the game trying to keep him locked up,because he's an INSANE warlock with power comparable to a black hole and he's not afraid to use it.He links together two dimensions and then destroys your hometowns!Yes,plural.I despised him.And he also kills Galuf,who was pretty much your comic relief.
ps:did anyone know there was a movie to this game?

Kefka was also quite insane.But in a sly way,because he's really the one pulling the strings even though you think its Gesthal's doing.And then he succeeds in destroying the world,there's that little detail..and his WHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOP was almost unbearable.That topped off his evil-ness.

Sephy was interesting because he really didn't start out insane,he was actually a hero that Cloud even looked up to.It's when he cracked that things got out of control...I was in a rage when he killed Aerith,but I guess it was all for the best,as her dead ghost in the lifestream got holy going(i think).All in all he was just kind of annoying with his huge sword and tons of final forms.

Ultemecia was one heck of a puppet master,and thats what being evil is all about,right? :P And she had some weird bodily mutations like monster feet and horns or something.Maybe the scariest looking villian.

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Originally Posted by CelestialStarDust

Kefka was also quite insane.But in a sly way,because he's really the one pulling the strings even though you think its the king's doing.And then he succeeds in destroying the world,there's that little detail..and his WHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOP was almost unbearable.That topped off his evil-ness.

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He also did some pretty heinous things off outside of the obvious. I loved all the stuff they did with him outside of just blowing stuff up like a cliche villain. He was truly evil, poisoning rivers to seal the fates of towns and finding masterful ways to set his plans into motion at the expense of others.

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Originally Posted by CelestialStarDust

Sephy was interesting because he really didn't start out insane,he was actually a hero that Cloud even looked up to.It's when he cracked that things got out of control...I was in a rage when he killed Aerith,but I guess it was all for the best,as her dead ghost in the lifestream got holy going(i think).All in all he was just kind of annoying with his huge sword and tons of final forms.

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I wasn't into Sephiroth as much as I thought I would be. I thought he was cool and stuff, but to me there seemed like there should have been more to him. The ending was pretty cool once I starting thinking about it though. (SPOILER)I mean, once I thought about it and talked to my friend about it, we realized it wasn't a stereotypical save the world from the bad guy who is trying to destroy it because he didn't want to destroy the planet. Sephiroth's intention was to summon meteor in order to force lifestream to come out and then absorb all the power of these two epic forces to do whatever he saw fit afterward to punish everyone for the suffering he believed they deserved.

Another 'dark side' I guess to FFVII that made me kinda sad for the character was Barret's past. Overall he was one of my least favorite characters, but at the same time he had one of my favorite character stories. It was pretty tragic what happened to Dyne, and I really wish there had been more closure to that even though idk how you'd really go about doing that. I just felt bad for Barret, Dyne, and Marlene. :(

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Originally Posted by Elly

Kuri you have it backwards, the ShinRa family of Gaia (FFVII) are descended from Shinra of Spira (FFX-2), Spira came before Gaia, the ShinRa family are far descendants of the Al Bhed... Shinra from Spira designed the technology to harvest the energy of the Farplane as a source of power, the same tech used later by ShinRa Electric Power Company to harvest the power of the Lifestream in Gaia...

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OH. Okay! hahaha alright.THAT WORKS NOW. somewhat. Thanks for filling me in. XD

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Originally Posted by -kuri-

Wow seriously?

I agree with you, Crop. That is bull. They should have named him a different name rather than make a descendant from...Shinra in Gaia.

Now that I understand what's going on, no, the Shinra from FFX-2 shouldn't be blamed for what the company did in VII. And why even connect those two? We're talking about VII. Not the series as a whole. The character Shinra is in an alternative world many years ahead, or whatever the deal is. and he's an Al Bhed! oh man this just doesn't work out! There's not even the slighest of mention of Al Bheds in Gaia! Squarenix...you frustrate me.

Ugh. That gives me another reason not to play X-2.

Jaffer, no hard feelings ya? We just have two different definitions of what a villain is. =D I mean...yeah I do consider Sephiroth a villain...a very strong one. But I do feel he's given too much credit for the destruction he's caused. I believe that the manipulator behind a strong powerful villain has the same if not more responsibility for the world's destruction and you see this manipulator\puppet relationship in many games (at least the ones I know about).

IV = Golbez and Kain
VII = Shinra and Sephiroth
VIII = Edea\Seifer and Ultimecia
IX = Garland and Kuja
X = Yevon and the Maesters

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That's my whole point!! Shinra Inc. made Sephiroth, and they didn't exactly have the best intentions at heart but they didn't manipulate him into doing jacksquat. They didn't want him to burn down Nibelheim, they didn't want him to try and kill Zack and Cloud, they didn't want him to seek out the Promised Land with his mommy, they want him to destroy the Planet, they don't want him to go on an intergalactic cruise to bring "shining futures" to other planets. They just ****ed up. Just like Shinra from Final fantasy X-2 did. Yeah, he made Yuna real happy with his plans for a city of light but he would sucked Spira dry and eventually killed it if he were to ever implement this plan.

Hojo is a supporter of Sephiroth, he even helped him after he figured out what needed to be done, but Hojo didn't plan for any of this. Hell, the reason Hojo was still with Shinra is because Sephiroth of all people forced him. Read Before Crisis. Hojo is down with whatever's evil and certainly made Sephiroth bringing about this situation, but he's still not the man with the plan.

Jenova is an interesting case. It's been stated that Sephiroth is the dominant force but I think that only became that way after Sephiroth died and dematerialised into the Lifestream. The idea to go the Promised land was probably hers.

But the plan to steal the Black Materia, the reason why our main character is on remote control by someone other then you in disc 1, the person controlling the WEAPONS, the person who's will brought about GeoStigma, that's all Sephiroth. He's the guy you're fighting. There's no secret true villain at the end, the foodchain ends with sephiroth.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

the person controlling the WEAPONS

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Sephiroth wasn't controlling the WEAPONS, they were tools created by the planet to wipe out any threats to the planet. After Sephiroth summoned Meteor they were released and perceived everything as a threat to the Planet, thus going on their killing spree.

And when the Sister Ray targeted Sephiroth's forcefield, the nearest WEAPON backed up, got into position and tried his best to block it with his own body.

Diamond wasn't protecting Sephiroth, it was advancing on Midgar to destroy it, the weapons were attacking the Mako Reactors, as they were the real threat to the planet by sucking away the Lifestream as far as the WEAPONS were concerned, and Midgar had the most reactors in one place...

The FMV had him backing up, anyway of hundreds of angles he choose to attack from, he choose the only one that would benefit Sephiroth. And whether Sephiroth was in control or not, he still totally tricked them into doing his dirty work for him while he could just hang back and sit on Holy for two weeks. Barring any spikyhaired heros getting in the way obviously.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

The FMV had him backing up, anyway of hundreds of angles he choose to attack from, he choose the only one that would benefit Sephiroth. And whether Sephiroth was in control or not, he still totally tricked them into doing his dirty work for him while he could just hang back and sit on Holy for two weeks. Barring any spikyhaired heros getting in the way obviously.

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I'm pretty sure unleashing the WEAPONS was unintentional on Sephiroths part, there is no mention anywhere that Sephiroth even acknowledges their existence.
Besides, I think having Diamond in that position was just to keep the story moving and get the barrier down while making the part more interesting (Midgar and Rufus getting shot up, and the downfall of Shinra etc). Again, there is no mention that it is done to protect Sephiroth.

You killed them by the time you face Sephiroth. He never ignores them, he caused a giant Mako explosion that caused them to arise, now you tell me what that was neccesary for beyond summoning the WEAPONS.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

You killed them by the time you face Sephiroth. He never ignores them, he caused a giant Mako explosion that caused them to arise, now you tell me what that was neccesary for beyond summoning the WEAPONS.

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Fair enough, I suppose he uses them as a distraction to hold you and Shinra off while he kicks up Meteor. Also a good reason to raise up the barrier (to stop them getting at him).
But I'm 100% certain that he has no control over them, as I originally pointed out.

Edit: In fact, the reason the WEAPONS woke up was because they saw the threat to the planet that Meteor brought.

And then left the crater, chasing off his opponents allowing Sephy to get his shield up. Maybe they weren't being controlled outright, but I think they had a poor at best understanding of the situation.

To Jaffer: Well I didn't necessarily consider Shinra a hidden antagonist or anything of the sort. That statement I made earlier was to show that there is a force behind the big strong villain. But you are right. Shinra just wanted to create the ultimate solider, right? with Sephiroth, at least. And they didn't really manipulate...it just got out of hand. I understand where you're coming from.

I only know the VII story from the game itself to AC. So I don't know anything pre-game.

Weren't the Weapons just targeting Junon and Midgar because they used to much Mako energy and they saw that as a threat to the planet?

>>> It all begins with Shinra..

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Originally Posted by black orb

>>> It all begins with Shinra..

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I think it all starts with the parents, those Shinra people must not have been loved when they were little :(

I'm telling you it's that little kid Shinra. and that Rin guy. Can't they just leave their diabolical plans to spread light in the world at peace?

Hahah have you seen how boring spira is? well I mean I don't know how lively it is in X-2, but from what I've seen so far, people just live in fear...or blitzball. hahaha that kid put some spice in the future.

A random sadness that I had about FFVII was towards the beginning when Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie died. :( Was it just me, or did anyone else think Jessie had a thing for Cloud? :o

Off course she did, as did every other man and woman regardless of their original sexual preference in this videogame.

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

And then left the crater, chasing off his opponents allowing Sephy to get his shield up. Maybe they weren't being controlled outright, but I think they had a poor at best understanding of the situation.

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Sorry for the late reply.

I don't think they would be helping Sephy. I mean, if they had an 'understanding' then they'd know that it was him who summoned Meteor and him who was going to take all of the Lifestream.

Afterall, they were released after seeing Meteor coming to the planet - they wern't released even after all those years of Shinra sucking Mako out of the Planet.

The weapons arent there to kill whoever/whatever is harming the planet. Theyre there to whipe out everything on the planet whenever it is threatened so then the planet lives and all threats will be gone.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

The weapons arent there to kill whoever/whatever is harming the planet. Theyre there to whipe out everything on the planet whenever it is threatened so then the planet lives and all threats will be gone.

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What I'm saying is that they wern't there to protect Sephy from threats that were being made to him (By Shinra and Cloud), as Jaffer said they were.
I also just thought I'd back this up by saying they only came out when Sephy threatened the planet with Meteor, not when Shinra was destroying the Planet.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

The weapons arent there to kill whoever/whatever is harming the planet. Theyre there to whipe out everything on the planet whenever it is threatened so then the planet lives and all threats will be gone.

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Actually they were created to defeat jenova, but by the time they were ready there was not a threat anymore. They lie dormant awaiting for the day jenova returns.

But there is a line that suggests they destroy everything. Not sure how that works.

I don't remember anyone saying anything about them being specifically there to defeat Jenova. I've been replaying the game in the past few days, and I'm at the part where I have to go to Corel to collect the huge materia, which is after they've explained the weapons' purpose. Destroying everything is pretty self explanatory b/c if everything on the planet is gone then the world will still be there and be able to survive. There wasn't a need to unleash the weapons on shinra b/c they weren't anywhere near destroying the planet yet, just slowly weakening it with their reactors and whatnot.

The weapons are properly explained by Ifalna (bare in mind that the translation was poor, but this seems reasonable):

Ifalna: "Yes, Professor. The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra... was
named Jenova. That is the 'crisis from the sky'. The Planet knew it had to
destroy the 'crisis from the sky'... You see, as long as Jenova exists, the
Planet will never be able to fully heal itself."

Gast: "Back then, Weapon was a weapon the Planet produced of its own will?"

Ifalna: "Yes, but... There is no record of Weapon ever being used. A small
number of the surviving Cetra defeated Jenova, and confined it. The Planet
produced Weapon... But it was no longer necessary to use it."

So that just pretty much says the weapons were made to rid the planet of any threat it saw to itself. Just in this case it was Jenova but doesn't mean Jenova's the only reason weapons exist. idk where this convo is from though b/c don't remember it in FFVII or AC and don't care to play any of the other FFVII stuff.

it's on the video tapes in Ilfana's house at Icicle Inn...

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Originally Posted by Kyros

So that just pretty much says the weapons were made to rid the planet of any threat it saw to itself. Just in this case it was Jenova but doesn't mean Jenova's the only reason weapons exist. idk where this convo is from though b/c don't remember it in FFVII or AC and don't care to play any of the other FFVII stuff.

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It states clearly they were created as a response to the threat of jenova.

Yeah that was their original purpose, but after the threat was removed I think it's fair to say that they now destroy any threat to the planet, even if it isn't Jenova.

I see it as they were simply created in response to anything that would threaten the planets destruction, but it just happens that at the time it was Jenova. Had something/someone else come along by then with the same cataclysmic undertones then they would have been there in response to that. They don't awaken just b/c Jenova's around, they awakened b/c they sensed what trouble Sephiroth was bringing to the planet.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

I see it as they were simply created in response to anything that would threaten the planets destruction, but it just happens that at the time it was Jenova. Had something/someone else come along by then with the same cataclysmic undertones then they would have been there in response to that. They don't awaken just b/c Jenova's around, they awakened b/c they sensed what trouble Sephiroth was bringing to the planet.

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Sephiroth was jenova. It was jenova who made sephiroth appear all over the world and jenova who gives him the power he needs (he manipulates Jenova to gain its power). Therefore, the second crisis of the planet is the REUNION. The reunion is completely to do with jenova as much as it is Sephiroth.

Once the reunion occurs, weapons are released. Both times, it was Jenova who was at the centre of it. The reunion is Jenova.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Kyros

I see it as they were simply created in response to anything that would threaten the planets destruction, but it just happens that at the time it was Jenova. Had something/someone else come along by then with the same cataclysmic undertones then they would have been there in response to that. They don't awaken just b/c Jenova's around, they awakened b/c they sensed what trouble Sephiroth was bringing to the planet.

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Sephiroth was jenova. It was jenova who made sephiroth appear all over the world and jenova who gives him the power he needs (he manipulates Jenova to gain its power). Therefore, the second crisis of the planet is the REUNION. The reunion is completely to do with jenova as much as it is Sephiroth.

Once the reunion occurs, weapons are released. Both times, it was Jenova who was at the centre of it. The reunion is Jenova.

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But as you said, Sephiroth is pulling the strings. Jenova wouldn't have done any of that if Sephiroth wasn't manipulating her.

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Originally Posted by Crop

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Kyros

I see it as they were simply created in response to anything that would threaten the planets destruction, but it just happens that at the time it was Jenova. Had something/someone else come along by then with the same cataclysmic undertones then they would have been there in response to that. They don't awaken just b/c Jenova's around, they awakened b/c they sensed what trouble Sephiroth was bringing to the planet.

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Sephiroth was jenova. It was jenova who made sephiroth appear all over the world and jenova who gives him the power he needs (he manipulates Jenova to gain its power). Therefore, the second crisis of the planet is the REUNION. The reunion is completely to do with jenova as much as it is Sephiroth.

Once the reunion occurs, weapons are released. Both times, it was Jenova who was at the centre of it. The reunion is Jenova.

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But as you said, Sephiroth is pulling the strings. Jenova wouldn't have done any of that if Sephiroth wasn't manipulating her.

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But that doesn't disprove that it was the planet releasing the Weapons in response to Jenova. They are released at HER reuinion, it is not Sephiroth's reunion.

It seems as though someone won't let me prove my point b/c a post I made was deleted. wtf

They were created 2000 years ago as a response to the threat Jenova faced but when they awoke current day I have to assume that after that Jenova/Sephiroth wasn't their sole target.

I mean, they are released at the notheren crater where Jenova is, they leave the Northern Crater, then after Sephiroth erects a barrier they attack Shinra and the party.

they still were not protecting Sephiroth... when they were released from the Northern Crater, it's because the crater is where they were originaly frozen/sleeping, they were releasd back into the world... because they were trying to wipe out all threats to Gaia i'm certain they would have gone back to the crater to take out Sephiroth & GENOVA's remains too if they could only get through that barrier when they were done taking out all the Mako Reactors...

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Originally Posted by Elly

they still were not protecting Sephiroth... when they were released from the Northern Crater, it's because the crater is where they were originaly frozen/sleeping, they were releasd back into the world... because they were trying to wipe out all threats to Gaia i'm certain they would have gone back to the crater to take out Sephiroth & GENOVA's remains too if they could only get through that barrier when they were done taking out all the Mako Reactors...

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Why wouldn't they do it there and then. The five of them were right on top of Sephiroth and Jenova, no barrier or anything standing in their way and they left. All five of them had something better to do. IF they wanted to take down Sephiroth and Diamond WEAPON could not have been more counterproductive to this end if he tried, it was at the bottom of their priority. I prefer the theory that Sephiroth after he gained control of Lifestream manipulated them to them just being retarded.

I prefer to think the weapons were going to just wipe everything off the face of the planet like their purpose was to do.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

I prefer to think the weapons were going to just wipe everything off the face of the planet like their purpose was to do.

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That is how I always interpreted it.

i can't explain why they didn't Kill Sephiroth before they left the crator, that's a question for the game creators (could have just been a plot device to keep the story moving)... but, it looked to me like they took off like an explosion, like they were launched out of their place of slumber... think of it like a volcano going off, the lava doesn't flow back into the volcano during it's eruption rather it flows out in a violent explosion... after waking up they prolly didn't just go straight to cleansing the planet, they may have been groggy and took a few hours before starting their rampage, they have been sleeping for a long time after all, technicaly they were just born, since they were stopped before their chance to be born after they were first created...

even when i first played it i never got the impression they were designed to destroy everything, but rather i got from Bugenhagen & Ilfana's speaches was that they were designed to clean out all impurities like they were the equivelant of white blood cells... considering most humans were native to the planet they had no reason to destroy those that were not harming Gaia, but would take out the ones responsible for syphoning out the lifestream for their own ends, and those infected with JENOVA cells since JENOVA was not native to Gaia...

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Originally Posted by Elly

i can't explain why they didn't Kill Sephiroth before they left the crator, that's a question for the game creators (could have just been a plot device to keep the story moving)... but, it looked to me like they took off like an explosion, like they were launched out of their place of slumber... think of it like a volcano going off, the lava doesn't flow back into the volcano during it's eruption rather it flows out in a violent explosion... after waking up they prolly didn't just go straight to cleansing the planet, they may have been groggy and took a few hours before starting their rampage, they have been sleeping for a long time after all, technicaly they were just born, since they were stopped before their chance to be born after they were first created...

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A good theory.
I always thought that they left the crator to stop Meteor, then realizing they couldn't get it (or get back in the crator) they just smashed up all other threats to the planet.
I still don't see what you mean by Diamond backing up to protect Sephiroth, looked like he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time - trying to go for the biggest threat to the planet that it could.

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Originally Posted by Crop

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Originally Posted by Elly

i can't explain why they didn't Kill Sephiroth before they left the crator, that's a question for the game creators (could have just been a plot device to keep the story moving)... but, it looked to me like they took off like an explosion, like they were launched out of their place of slumber... think of it like a volcano going off, the lava doesn't flow back into the volcano during it's eruption rather it flows out in a violent explosion... after waking up they prolly didn't just go straight to cleansing the planet, they may have been groggy and took a few hours before starting their rampage, they have been sleeping for a long time after all, technicaly they were just born, since they were stopped before their chance to be born after they were first created...

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A good theory.
I always thought that they left the crator to stop Meteor, then realizing they couldn't get it (or get back in the crator) they just smashed up all other threats to the planet.
I still don't see what you mean by Diamond backing up to protect Sephiroth, looked like he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time - trying to go for the biggest threat to the planet that it could.

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Not only did he attack from the only possible angle from which he could help Sephiroth, but when the Sister Ray charged it's beam, he went back a little, readied himself and tried to stop it. I have to assume that he was vaguely aware that they oly thing behind him was the one thing they were suppose to destroy.

i don't think the weapons are capable of complex thaught, if they were Saphire would not have been so easily shot in the face, all it was doing was steadying itself for a full on attack on Midgar... to say it was trying to protect Sephiropth is giving it far too much credit... as far as Diamond knew Midgar was getting ready to fire upon it...

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Originally Posted by Jaffer

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Originally Posted by Crop

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Originally Posted by Elly

i can't explain why they didn't Kill Sephiroth before they left the crator, that's a question for the game creators (could have just been a plot device to keep the story moving)... but, it looked to me like they took off like an explosion, like they were launched out of their place of slumber... think of it like a volcano going off, the lava doesn't flow back into the volcano during it's eruption rather it flows out in a violent explosion... after waking up they prolly didn't just go straight to cleansing the planet, they may have been groggy and took a few hours before starting their rampage, they have been sleeping for a long time after all, technicaly they were just born, since they were stopped before their chance to be born after they were first created...

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A good theory.
I always thought that they left the crator to stop Meteor, then realizing they couldn't get it (or get back in the crator) they just smashed up all other threats to the planet.
I still don't see what you mean by Diamond backing up to protect Sephiroth, looked like he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time - trying to go for the biggest threat to the planet that it could.

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when the Sister Ray charged it's beam, he went back a little, readied himself and tried to stop it.

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Sounds like he was trying to brace himself for the shot from Sister Ray. He's big and slow so couldn't exactly get out of the way in time.
It's like if someone said, "I'm going to punch you in the chest" and you couldn't move out of the way, you'd step back and ready yourself for the punch.
And as Elly said; I don't think their capable of complex thaught, Saphire was a good example.

Still of the hundreds of angles to attack Midgar from he choose putting himself between the Sister Ray and the Northern Crater

I always just assumed that was for convenience of plot.

And if you think about it, if Diamond Weapon came from the Northern Crater, made a B-line for Midgar, had a little nap in the ocean, then continued onward it would be directly in the line of fire.

Jaffer, you're just looking too hard for something that just isn't there, if the weapons were working for Sephiroth the Ultimania would have stated so...
true Sephiroth is controling JENOVA, but the Weapons are a product of Gaia to be used against JENOVA, why would the weapons of Gaia suddenly be turned to weapons of Sephiroth? it makes no sense, Sephiroth simply does not have the power to control the planet, he's trying to aquire that power by bringing it to the brink of death by using Meteor...
VeloZer0's theory is sound in this regard and makes a lot of sense, you also need to understand this game is from the ealy days of the PlayStation, it's not gonna be 100% geographicaly accurate as later additions in the FF series of games, honestly the Sister Ray could not be fired from Midgar without tearing through the mountain the Chocobo Sage lives on, there are allowances to be made on such an old title...

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Originally Posted by Elly

Jaffer, you're just looking too hard for something that just isn't there, if the weapons were working for Sephiroth the Ultimania would have stated so...
true Sephiroth is controling JENOVA, but the Weapons are a product of Gaia to be used against JENOVA, why would the weapons of Gaia suddenly be turned to weapons of Sephiroth? it makes no sense, Sephiroth simply does not have the power to control the planet, he's trying to aquire that power by bringing it to the brink of death by using Meteor...
VeloZer0's theory is sound in this regard and makes a lot of sense, you also need to understand this game is from the ealy days of the PlayStation, it's not gonna be 100% geographicaly accurate as later additions in the FF series of games, honestly the Sister Ray could not be fired from Midgar without tearing through the mountain the Chocobo Sage lives on, there are allowances to be made on such an old title...

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Actually, Sephiroth may not have been stated to control the Weapons but he has been stated to be in control of the Lifestream. Even when he was a beaten dog after FF7 he could pretty effortlessly oust Aerith from her position and go back to his schemes again. He even expressed that he could just complete his objectives while remaining inside the Lifestream but there was things he wanted to do with his own hands.

Given that. I find a lot easier to assume that Sephiroth was manipulating the WEAPONS then that they were just designed to be as counterproductive as physically possible towards achieving the goal they are set out to do.

Sephiroth is not in control of the lifestream, he is trying to control it, otherwise the lifestream may not have been able to beat his attempt to harm Gaia with Meteor as displayed at the end of the original game and during "Case of Denzil"...

That was right after Sephiroth was defeated to the point tat he couldn't hold back Holy anymore either. He was dead at the time.

Wasn't the whole point of summoning Meteor so that the Lifestream would all gather to heal the wound and he would absorb it all/become one with it? If he could control the Lifestream I don't see why this would be necessary.

Sephy cannot control the lifestream, therefore he did summon meteor, not only to destroy gaia, but uses north crater as a base and brings jenova there with him. This is important because jenova's presence in the crater is what makes the lifestream gather there so that sephy can control it (this is because jenova's fall/arrival on the planet is what created the North Crater in the first place). Basically he wanted to hold back the lifestream like he was doing to Holy. That way meteor (which is what he was doing with his own hands) could not be stopped.

Going back to the original topic of the thread though, I actually believe that the greatest villain (greatest in terms of most evil that is) would be Ultimecia from VIII. seriously though, whats more evil than a powerful sorceress who isn't content with conquering and controlling the world, but goes further to project her evil spirit into the past in an attempt to merge the two time periods of the world and control it as well?