More Final Fantasy characters need to die mid-game.

Princess Sara. Who? Maria. What now? Refia. I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Aerith. OMG I LOVE FF7.

There we go. It finally clicked.

Obviously naming 3 female characters from the first three games and then naming freaking Aerith is a bit unfair, but it got the point across. People like happy endings, but we love at least one devastatingly bad bit in a story. Or, at least, I do. That's why I like Lost Odyssey so much. That game is mostly sorrow. Sad is beautiful. :)

I would like to see more characters die. Just...like, randomly killing them for the fun of it would be lame though. But that's what good writers are for!

Discuss, I guess.

Yes, the series has been a bit soft on the main characters for the last few installments so it would be kinda nice to see that dynamic again... However I'd also like to see an unhappy ending in an FF sometime too.

Princess Sara is an NPC and her part of the story was finished within fifteen minutes though. :P

But if they were gonna kill someone off it'd be better for it to be someone I don't use. In fact killing of someone I did use would annoy me and I don't want to play anymore. Which is probably why it doesn't happen to often. And I get to attached to my little characters.

I wouldn't mind if they killed off an NPC here and there though. And not just a few moments into the story that the character knew. But a character introduced at that point that we the player got to know and then killed off thirty or so hours later.

I agree with Verma I would rather it be an NPC or a guest character like it usually is than a main character because if I end up using said character then I would be a bit upset.

But NPC's rarely have the same impact. Brahne biting the big one in IX had less of an impact on me than Galuf dying in V.

Major characters biting the big one I feel has more of a major impact but I feel it would grow stale if it's done too often. I played so many RPGs where major characters bit the big one that Aerith never had the impact on me like it did for others (I was still reeling from CT's gutsy death scene).

I agree that a playable character should die again sometime soonish. It would also be neat to see people who are playable for a long time become unplayable while still alive for some reason - or even continue to be playable but be different. For example, someone could lose an arm or their sight or even their mind (which would be cool). Something like having the main player's love interest lose their mind to the point of amnesia, forgetting (and not willing to continue with) any romance would be tragic on a whole different level.

But still, death! C'mon!

There were so many main character smurf ups in 7, it was fantastic. It still is fantastic.

Sure, I'd be pissed if my favourite main character died or became useless, but if it was done properly it would make a magnificent twist in the story.

Some of my favorite games have big pcs turn into either npcs or killed off, but I don't think it's a necessity for a good game. Sure FFIV was awesome and it drove me crazy b/c every time I started liking someone they were killed, and in FF Tictacs and Suikoden 2 one of the main antagonists in each one was my favorite character who started as a pc. It doesnt mean there aren't plenty of titles that could be made w/o killing a big pc. Now that I think about it though, it seems like many FF titles have big characters die (or can die in the event theres a way to control whether they live or die), at least more than I realized before I thought about it o.o

Here would be a nice twist: Have the actual main character die in one. Vaan anyone?

or Tidus anyone? :o

That would be new for a FF midstory but if youve played many Fire Emblems its nothing too unexpected (from what Ive heard of the, havent played them much myself).

Murdering Tidus over and over

Edit by Kishi: Changed to a link with respect to hemophobes and people who don't enjoy seeing, like, exposed brain matter and so forth.

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Originally Posted by FFIX Choco Boy

Here would be a nice twist: Have the actual main character die in one. Vaan anyone?

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Well XII sorta did this. If you hadn´t read manual or get any information about the game, you might have thought Reks to be main character and then he just gets killed very early.

Also after playing second time XII Vaan doesn´t seem so awful anymore.

Chrono Trigger already did the "kill the main character part way through the story" and though the plot strongly encourages you to bring him back its still only optional. :cool:

We've had quite a few main characters die in the FF stories though most wait until the end to do it so I guess this would be a little different.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Chrono Trigger already did the "kill the main character part way through the story" and though the plot strongly encourages you to bring him back its still only optional. :cool:

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The egg is easily one of the most suspenseful moments in RPG history.

IDK man. I'm not sure what kind of role FF has to play in the High Definition age, i'm not sure what we can expect from the newest entries and going forth, I don't know if they can pull off the same kinds of feelings and emotions they once did. Square Enix needs to completely reorganize as an entity before this sort of thing can start happening.

Meh, I think it would only turn out to be sappy, just like Aeris when I first saw it (granted, I first saw it in 2006 and was spoiled by then) and have no impact. Even Chrono kicking the bucket did little to me since he could come back anyway and had no personality.

The only time I actually became quiet by a death in FF was Aria in FF III and Galuf in FF V. Nothing will ever be able to top Galuf's going. Epicness in phyical form right there.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

IDK man. I'm not sure what kind of role FF has to play in the High Definition age, i'm not sure what we can expect from the newest entries and going forth, I don't know if they can pull off the same kinds of feelings and emotions they once did. Square Enix needs to completely reorganize as an entity before this sort of thing can start happening.

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I actually completely agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Meh, I think it would only turn out to be sappy, just like Aeris when I first saw it (granted, I first saw it in 2006 and was spoiled by then) and have no impact. Even Chrono kicking the bucket did little to me since he could come back anyway and had no personality.

The only time I actually became quiet by a death in FF was Aria in FF III and Galuf in FF V. Nothing will ever be able to top Galuf's going. Epicness in phyical form right there.

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Most deaths in the FF series rarely impacted me beyond the annoyance of losing a character who suddenly became useful (Tellah and General Leo) or was someone I didn't really care about. Death in the FF series never really got to me like it has in other game series. Even the few characters I do care about usually go out in such a fashion that I feel it helps define them as a character. So its hard to get weepy when it was done well for story purposes.

Though there is one exception and that's possibly Cid from FFVI, only because its a death that is left in the players hands and failing grants you access to one of the most memorable scenes from the game. Just the simple fact you can prevent the death if you work hard enough made it have a bigger impact on me.

I think its best to have a wee bit of tragedy or "kill someone one likes off" it makes it more emotional and true to "real life" in a way...Everyone dosent live in a happily ever after life so the tragedy pulls you in. I agree with that.

I liked the way party members were dropping like flies in FFVI, it made the struggle feel so much more 'real'. Draging the same ~6-15 people through every event without anyone ever perishing just seems a little too easy to me. If it is a real ordeal, sacrifices must be made along the way. (and I was EXTREMELY pissed off when they brought everyone back at the end of VI, made the whole game seem so cheep and shallow.)

Of course having characters die is completely dependent on having a character progression system that doesn't require a large amount of permanent customization of the character. Thought I though Gaulf's death was done very well, I would be screaming bloody murder if Cara didn't get all of Gaulf's old abilities. Once again, in FFVI there was no individual character development, only levels. If a character had died mid way into FFX, that would have been trouble.

While I'll be the first to say that I've wanted to shove a sword into Tidus' cranium, or push Zell into the mouth of a rabid piranha plant, it's pretty obvious that as soon as you start making character deaths an institution -- and in RPGdom, it's getting there -- the routineness ciphons some of the affect away. To me, the only thing worse than an death-by-numbers is one where the creators undercut it as a way to preserve gameplay, like having someone join with the exact same stats/skills as the recently deceased.

But hey, anything's better than amnesia. (buh-dun-tss)

I really like BoB's idea of a loved character going mad but still being a PC.
Even better one suddenly falling out of love with another PC but both of them still being PCs.
That would be awesome.

The biggest death that had an impact on me was when (SPOILER)Shadow died at the end of FF6 He was my brothers favorite character (along with Amarant) and he kinda reminds me of me, so in some ways I felt connected. I'm glad Umaro was alive though ;> ....As for Tellah, He was pretty bad ass...to bad he had to die. I agree with what velozer0 and Edeas-ether though.

I like it when games constantly rearrange the party because of the storyline. I am fond of characters joining and leaving the party as the story dictates rather than a character joining and simply being added to the roster of heroes.

Yep that is good. I also like variety. new, more people makes the game so much more...unique..and fascinating...well, to me..

I only agree with killing more main characters if those deaths impact the story (in a good way), and have an emotional impact me. Otherwise, if they kill off a character I've spent time to build up and theres no good reason or impact than its nothing more than an annoyance in my opinion.

If we are talking about NPCs that are important storywise than so long as their deaths are done well, than I say bring on the death count.

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Originally Posted by the AJman

I only agree with killing more main characters if those deaths impact the story (in a good way), and have an emotional impact me. Otherwise, if they kill off a character I've spent time to build up and theres no good reason or impact than its nothing more than an annoyance in my opinion.

If we are talking about NPCs that are important storywise than so long as their deaths are done well, than I say bring on the death count.

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Very true.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I agree that a playable character should die again sometime soonish. It would also be neat to see people who are playable for a long time become unplayable while still alive for some reason - or even continue to be playable but be different. For example, someone could lose an arm or their sight or even their mind (which would be cool). Something like having the main player's love interest lose their mind to the point of amnesia, forgetting (and not willing to continue with) any romance would be tragic on a whole different level.

But still, death! C'mon!

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I guess Square already did that and that is one of the reasons Xenogears is so great. Remember Elly? (SPOILER)She leaves your party close to the end of the game to help the people, blah blah... Then Miang awakens in her... And this part really creeped me out. I mean, Fei and Elly had such a beautiful love story, what with the reincarnation and them together being the key to stop Deus and free the Wave Existence, and then that happens... It really felt hopeless, at least for me...

Mass Effect pulls it off wonderfully. I can't explain it without intense spoilers, and I refuse to spoil something as amazing as this game for anyone.

It's deep though, and it really pulls you into the game because of the fact that all of the potential deaths in the game are based upon the outcomes of decisions you have to make.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I like it when games constantly rearrange the party because of the storyline. I am fond of characters joining and leaving the party as the story dictates rather than a character joining and simply being added to the roster of heroes.

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I like it when you can choose and are presented with different scenes depending on who's in your party :D! Plus with FFIV it was kinda predictable. GEE MY PARTY'S FULL I BET SOMEONE'S GOING TO DIE SOON. I WONDER WHO WASN'T ACTUALLY DEAD AND IS COMING BACK TO THE PARTY THIS TIME! Or at least I think that's how it was. I only played it once.

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Originally Posted by IXVI

The biggest death that had an impact on me was when (SPOILER)Shadow died at the end of FF6 He was my brothers favorite character (along with Amarant) and he kinda reminds me of me, so in some ways I felt connected.

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Can I ask why exactly? I respect this, but I find it hard to understand how anyone can have any kind of attachment to either of these characters. They both struck me as the being the most generic, stereotypical and cliche of the japanese silent/tough guy as they could possibly be [silent and really tough, trying too hard to pretend they're too cool for the group and too cold/indifferent, but yet they end up sticking around the good guys anyways until the very end]. They both seemed so boring and uninteresting that the "mystery" of their characters didn't really encourage any excitement or curiosity on my part. Despite all this, my older brother seems to like Shadow too.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Most deaths in the FF series rarely impacted me beyond the annoyance of losing a character who suddenly became useful (Tellah and General Leo) or was someone I didn't really care about. Death in the FF series never really got to me like it has in other game series. Even the few characters I do care about usually go out in such a fashion that I feel it helps define them as a character. So its hard to get weepy when it was done well for story purposes.

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^ This. I think I'm the only person that didn't really care when Aerith died. Nice girl and all but it really didn't matter much to me for some reason. My brother thinks it's one of the most dramatic death scenes of all time, but I never really saw it that way. I think there was one death in Chrono Cross that struck me as pretty sad and had some damn depressing music to go along with it, but I can't seem to remember who's death it was.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Though there is one exception and that's possibly Cid from FFVI, only because its a death that is left in the players hands and failing grants you access to one of the most memorable scenes from the game. Just the simple fact you can prevent the death if you work hard enough made it have a bigger impact on me.

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^ This too. I'll have to admit that when I played this game as a kid, I actually felt pretty sad then this part of the game came around [I had caused him to die because I didn't know it mattered what kind of fish you gave him]. I think I might have teared up a little bit too, but I can't remember... it was a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

But NPC's rarely have the same impact. Brahne biting the big one in IX had less of an impact on me than Galuf dying in V.

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For me it's the opposite! I actually felt sorta sad when Queen Brahne died, especially since she showed that she finally understood the error of her ways at the end and reconciled with Garnet [I am remembering this correctly, right? I hope I'm not thinking of something else and sounding stupid].

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Originally Posted by Kyros

or Tidus anyone? :o

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Yes but we're not trying to think of deaths that might make the audience happy. Remember that we're trying to think of deaths that have/would have a dramatic and at least partially sad impact on the audience.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

IDK man. I'm not sure what kind of role FF has to play in the High Definition age, i'm not sure what we can expect from the newest entries and going forth, I don't know if they can pull off the same kinds of feelings and emotions they once did. Square Enix needs to completely reorganize as an entity before this sort of thing can start happening.

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Actually, I think being in the High Definition age gives them even more opportunity to pull off said feelings and emotions at a higher level than they used to when they were working with more limited consoles. The problem is that they just need to understand how to execute properly. One big criticism to this that I hear often is that FF characters in a lot of games don't engage in enough small talk to develop actual personality for this to happen [little-to-no personality means little-to-no attachment, which means little-to-no reaction when cataclysmic events happen concerning said characters]. I'm a firm believer in that something as simple as that can make a huge impact. I actually think that Star Ocean 3 did a pretty good job with this, however it was killed by bad voice acting which irritated the hell out of me [and a lot of others from what I hear]. Voice acting that blows can ruin a good story with well-developed personalities. This could just be bias on my part, but voice acting really burns me up when I play a lot of these games because it's usually done so poorly. I'm no expert in this industry, but generally actors don't seem to have this issue when doing a live-action movie or TV series. However when it comes to animated or CG films/games/etc, the voice acting seems quite bland, predictable and lacking actual personality.

Okay, I'll try to cut the wall-of-text off here. Sorry! I know it's been a while but everyone here probably remembers that when I talk about this stuff, I tend to go on and on.

>>> Square has a lot to learn about main characters deaths in their RPGs, FF deaths are a joke and not sad at all, if you think FF deaths are sad then go and play a Suikoden game..

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Originally Posted by Khalin

[
^ This. I think I'm the only person that didn't really care when Aerith died. Nice girl and all but it really didn't matter much to me for some reason. My brother thinks it's one of the most dramatic death scenes of all time, but I never really saw it that way. I think there was one death in Chrono Cross that struck me as pretty sad and had some damn depressing music to go along with it, but I can't seem to remember who's death it was.

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You might be talking about Miguel at the Dead Sea at that broken bell tower with the sunset.

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Originally Posted by Khalin

Actually, I think being in the High Definition age gives them even more opportunity to pull off said feelings and emotions at a higher level than they used to when they were working with more limited consoles. The problem is that they just need to understand how to execute properly. One big criticism to this that I hear often is that FF characters in a lot of games don't engage in enough small talk to develop actual personality for this to happen [little-to-no personality means little-to-no attachment, which means little-to-no reaction when cataclysmic events happen concerning said characters]. I'm a firm believer in that something as simple as that can make a huge impact. I actually think that Star Ocean 3 did a pretty good job with this, however it was killed by bad voice acting which irritated the hell out of me [and a lot of others from what I hear]. Voice acting that blows can ruin a good story with well-developed personalities. This could just be bias on my part, but voice acting really burns me up when I play a lot of these games because it's usually done so poorly. I'm no expert in this industry, but generally actors don't seem to have this issue when doing a live-action movie or TV series. However when it comes to animated or CG films/games/etc, the voice acting seems quite bland, predictable and lacking actual personality.

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I do believe small talk is pretty important as well as just having the party actually reflect on the devastation such a thing creates.

I think the last death that really affected me was in Persona 3. One character bites the big one and the entire cast is just at a total loss. The game plays on a day to day schedule and I literally could not go to dungeons or interact with most of my party members because they were still shell shocked from watching a comrade die. It literally blew my mind and as I waited around for my party to overcome their grief, even I started to think back on this character's impact cause I did spend a few months (in-game) getting to know him and now he was gone. My usual cold hearted indifference actually disappeared for awhile. I was completely moved by one of the character's speech at the decease's funeral. Seriously, stuff like this needs to happen more. :colbert:

I think what we should be doing with the new generation of hardware is expanding games and working more towards building relationships between the characters and player and I don't mean loads of dialogue either. Just using body language or making the character do something a little quirky when they do normal things (like adding a skip when they walk) just to throw the player off their game would suffice. Giving the player the option to get to know the character rather than force it down their throat.

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Originally Posted by black orb

>>> Square has a lot to learn about main characters deaths in their RPGs, FF deaths are a joke and not sad at all, if you think FF deaths are sad then go and play a Suikoden game..

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I laughed more at Gremio's death... but the others are definetly better.

I agree with Kanno eith regards to adding random things like a skip in their step. People are often quite weird. People are often quite witty. Throwing something "human" like that in for absolutely no reason other than to be human would probably leave me shocked for a minute the first time I see it.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by black orb

>>> Square has a lot to learn about main characters deaths in their RPGs, FF deaths are a joke and not sad at all, if you think FF deaths are sad then go and play a Suikoden game..

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I laughed more at Gremio's death... but the others are definetly better.

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>>> Gremio`s death was the saddest, and you know it..

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I think what we should be doing with the new generation of hardware is expanding games and working more towards building relationships between the characters and player and I don't mean loads of dialogue either. Just using body language or making the character do something a little quirky when they do normal things (like adding a skip when they walk) just to throw the player off their game would suffice. Giving the player the option to get to know the character rather than force it down their throat.

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Body language definitely goes hand-in-hand with communication, even though it's such a small detail, it can really bring a character to life whereas in most anime or video games they might seem "stiff" or "flat". I see that more modern games are progressing with body language on their characters, which is good. I still think that it needs to get it to a higher level though. The hand gestures, the head jerks, the eyebrow movements, the arm and leg stances, all need the volume turned up. Having a person act out a live scene of such a conversation as a reference for creating it in 3D would probably improve the body language dramatically as well as the voice acting by heaps, since said person can actually "flesh out" that role a lot more naturally, making the voice acting sound a lot more natural as well and far less forced. I also agree that it doesn't have to include astounding heaps of dialogue either [wouldn't want to get too carried away, since it's a video game and not a TV show or something].

Your point about the reaction from the characters in Persona 3 is also quite valid. In a lot of video games, the characters' reactions to cataclysmic events usually seem pretty flat [there is some emotion displayed, but you never get the sense that it bothers them for more than a few minutes]. I haven't played Persona 3 myself, but from experience I know that you have good experience and excellent taste with this area, so I'm going to comfortably take your word for it. We need more of this!

Kanno, why don't we just team up and make our own video game.