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Well it seems like a fair question. There was a topic on it back in '06 but since CC came out after that I don't think that topic had much to go on.
But with Crisis Core and Advent Children and all the rest of it, who do you think is stronger between the two of them?
Well, although I think Zack is a much better person, I think Cloud is stronger based on the story. In the game, Sephiroth is "killed" by Cloud, but Sephiroth had the power to defeat Zack. However, it could be argued that Cloud was only stronger at that time because Cloud was in a state of amazing rage, and that Zack is actually stronger. I still say Cloud though, even though I like Zack a lot more.(SPOILER)man-crush?:p
I think that since Zack's dead Cloud would win by default :) Also I think its a little unfair since Cloud has an extra weapon in his spikes of death on top of his head.
that was my first thought as well :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyros
however, one could argue that because Cloud was a "failed experiment" Zack takes the default win. Zack was also a SOLDIER 1st class, which we all know Cloud never got. he just killed the best SOLDIER out there...
too many counter intuitive citations...
Cloud failed at being a SOLDIER purely due to psychological reasons. At the time, his psyche was too fragile to take the treatments that being a SOLDIER would bring upon him, so he was washed out of the program. Physically, however, he was more than capable. Despite not having gone through the full SOLDIER physical augmentations of Mako and JENOVA cell infusions, he was strong enough to overcome one of the most powerful entities we know of.
His initial successful attack against Sephiroth could have been attributed to it being a sneak attack (showing he was smarter than Zack by attacking without letting his opponent know he was there), but when he threw Sephiroth into the reactor, he had clearly overpowered him, and had, depending on how you look at it, used Sephiroth's Masamune, a weapon that supposedly could not be wielded by any other, against Sephiroth. Remember, he grabbed the Masamune and, after getting back on his feet, used it to lever Sephiroth off the edge.
Hojo then found him, and decided he was an excellent specimen physically, and he marvelled at a creature capable of physically defeating Sephiroth. Since Hojo cared nothing for Cloud's mind, he began prompt experimentation, infusing him with JENOVA cells and Mako, further enhancing his strength similarly to SOLDIER members.
The "failed experiment" was not due to any physical weakness. The experiment Hojo was setting up was designed to prove the validity of the Reunion theory. Thus, the failure of the experiment would be because Cloud's JENOVA-enhanced body failed to meet the projected behaviour that Hojo had predicted and expected. If anything, this would suggest a mental defect (or, taken from the viewpoint of a non psychopath, a mental strength. Cloud's inner mind fighting back against JENOVA's control as we see it do so many times in the game).
So, yeah, it's Cloud.
Cloud overpowered a Sephiroth who probably had part of his spine severed seeing as how he was stabbed in teh back by a giant sword.
Neither Cloud nor Zack are stronger than Sephiroth.
how can one overpower while still being weaker? yes, its possible, but stength is strength. and Cloud can get his up to 255. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
and Skyblade, *awesome* rundown of the whole thing you explained. i havent played the game in maybe seven years, and you just refreshed quite a bit. thanks for being aweosme :)
Cloud for sure. He beats the **** out of Sephiroth. And he also overcomes his problems at the end. And did you see those awesome moves in FF VII: Advent Children? He even then beats sephiroth... again!
Enough said, I would say. Cloud just rulez!! :D
Well let's see Cloud had severe Mako Poisoning, to the point that he should be a damned vegetable TWICE! Once in Crisis Core and again in Final Fantasy 7, and yet he still managed to pull through both times and kick the ever-lovin out of Sephiroth, again TWICE! He was even shot at the end of Advent Children and wen through an explosion. I love Zack, but I'd have to say Cloud is stronger, even if Zack was still alive.
So for the next random installment of FFVII maybe they should but in an arm wrestling contest between the two to settle it. :P
Its difficult for me to really say cause the Compilation basically gives a giant middle finger to strength and show of force compared to the original VII. VII is like Dragon Ball where the allegory of "destroying a mountain" is impressive but AC and CC basically jump it up to DBZ levels where "destroying mountains" is the starting point and that's for the non-Jenova infused residents. Seriously after watching AC or playing through CC, I've come to the conclusion that Sephiroth used Meteor cause it was his only means of injuring the planet without out right destroying it cause if he actually just used his natural power he would have sliced the planet in half. :roll2
I'm going to go differently here and say that Zack is actually stronger and its because of one simple reason... Sephiroth is arrogant. Why would an elite 1st Class SOLDIER lower himself to actually trying against a simple infantryman, even if he was put through the SOLDIER process he's a failure as both a SOLDIER and as a Sephiroth Clone which makes him a perfect pawn?
The AC Ultimania says that Sephiroth wasn't actually putting any effort into his battle with Cloud (who is desperately struggling to stay alive), he toys with him and considering his dialogue with Cloud throughout most of VII its obvious Sephy looks at everyone on the planet as simple single cell organisms.
I've always been of the belief that most FF villains fail cause they feel their "godhood" makes them invincible and thus don't actually try to put any effort into actually destroying the party like they should. Seriously, considering the power Sephy has shown compared to what both Zack or Cloud have shown makes it obvious that Sephy is truly in a league of his own compared to these two. Sephy's arrogance is the true cause of his downfall, not because Cloud is actually stronger than him.
Also, CC retcons (or expands depending on where you stand on the subject) and shows that Zack was only finally killed after fighting what appears to be most of the Shin-Ra army. A massive force to take down one guy... Cloud has never shown that level of power, Zack has also defeated two 1st Class SOLDIERS who were said to be on par with Sephiroth though they were both decidedly weaker than Sephy. Still he beat them and din't show the same signs of Fatigue like Cloud did and unlike Cloud, Zack beat god-mode Genesis alone where as Cloud beat god-mode Sephiroth with the whole party.
All Cloud has to do is invest some money to breed some chocobos, and BAM he has Knights of the Round. Cloud can solo anything after that :p
Cloud all the way, Zack was good, no doubt about that. Cloud just takes the cake in the way of physical power.
Except no matter what, the Compilation says Cloud beat Sephy in VII with the help of his comrades, not to mention Aerith is the one that actually saves the planet. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Khimbar2775
Zack can break the damage limit. Cloud cannot.
;)
The only way to know who is stronger is if they were in a weight lifting contest.
or a squatting competition! CC showed Zack loved squats, and anyone who played through VII knows that Cloud competes in a squatting competition in order to get the Wig in Wal Market
I disagree with that Kuja for one did definitely try because he resorted to killing himself along with the party for a final desperate attack. I would say similar for Seymour too because after getting defeated twice he would definitely think to try harder in killing these people that keep getting in the way. Although Omnis was weaker than the 2nd Seymour.Quote:
I've always been of the belief that most FF villains fail cause they feel their "godhood" makes them invincible and thus don't actually try to put any effort into actually destroying the party like they should.
With Sephiroth I think it's almost the same. When it comes to his plans having a chance to be ruined he goes in metamorphosis to a god-like state to slay a party and after he's been defeated by said party, he has to resort to his basic form against Cloud.
I say Cloud is stronger because he still lived after getting gunned down and defeated Sephiroth three times.
Sephiroth was at his strongest in Advent Children. Cloud only did anything because Sephiroth let him. The fight be over with the first strike if Seph had wanted to.
Actually, Sephy was stabbed in the back of his leg, which is why he's limping away with one leg nearly useless when they reach the end-scene on the bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Look at the scene again. Sephy limps away, and Cloud confronts him. Sephy whips his sword around, pushes it into Cloud's chest, and lifts him off the ground, saying "Don't push it". At this point, yes, he is clearly simply toying with Cloud. Then Cloud gets back on his feet, at which point Sephiroth has a WTF moment (I don't remember the actual line, but I think it was "What is this?!"), and then a couple seconds later he is tossed off the bridge. Cloud's strength was shocking to Sephiroth. The greatest hero of the war, who had taken on everything that had been sent his way without breaking a sweat, is fazed by Cloud's power.Quote:
The AC Ultimania says that Sephiroth wasn't actually putting any effort into his battle with Cloud (who is desperately struggling to stay alive), he toys with him and considering his dialogue with Cloud throughout most of VII its obvious Sephy looks at everyone on the planet as simple single cell organisms.
I've always been of the belief that most FF villains fail cause they feel their "godhood" makes them invincible and thus don't actually try to put any effort into actually destroying the party like they should. Seriously, considering the power Sephy has shown compared to what both Zack or Cloud have shown makes it obvious that Sephy is truly in a league of his own compared to these two. Sephy's arrogance is the true cause of his downfall, not because Cloud is actually stronger than him.
No matter how you look at it, this indicates Cloud is stronger than Zack. Sephiroth doesn't "try" in the entire Nibelheim incident (or for that matter, any time we see him, except possibly the endgame. Even in Crisis Core he doesn't really exert himself). He kills everything in one shot, never looking back. He judges everything to be infinitely weaker than him, and he is right. He doesn't treat Zack any differently than he treats Cloud, he tries to just blow through them both and keep going to Jenova, his goal. The difference is, he totally overwhelms Zack, while Cloud manages to succeed where everyone else, ever had failed.
YouTube - Crisis Core FFVII English voice over cutscenes pt.10(*spoilers*)
Around 4:20 and on. Looks like he's stabbed in the lower back to me.
And Sephiroth definitely applied himself to the fight with Zack. He did more than just melee fight with him like he did with Cloud in AC. In his fight with Zack he used his teleportation speed, his sword energy strikes and he clearly wanted Zack the hell out of the way so he could get to Jenova.
With Cloud in AC he had no rush to go anywhere. he was playing the entire time.
And Cloud overpowering Sephiroth was shocking th esame way a mother lifting a car off her child would be shocking; adreniline is an amazing thing.
Cloud DUH
Willpower wise, I dun know. Cloud seems pretty weak at all times. :bigsmile:
Zack was (SPOILER)killed by mere gunshots. Not to mention he's not the one who killed Sephiroth; Sephiroth threw him around like a ragdoll.
So yeah, Cloud is stronger.
Cloud is a "Warriors-of-Light"-esque character to me, that's why he had a reaction to the Jenova cells whereas Zack did not. Cloud is also the only successful Sephiroth "clone" besides #1, the only one to get powers and make it through a journey.
Oh, sorry, I was ignoring the extremely bad retcon. Since, you know, the remade scene doesn't work at all with the original, nor does it make sense if you look at it on its own terms. If Sephy was trying to get to Jenova, as you claim, why didn't he simply end the assault on Zack after the first two strikes, which knocked Zack into a completely different room, well out of the way of his goal? Even then, he still isn't even breathing hard by the time Zack has gotten the crap beaten out of him, he still is utterly shocked at the power Cloud wields, and he still had several seconds of reaction time before Cloud throws him off the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
CC had some excellent points, but that butchery of what was originally an amazing scene was not one of them.
Except Kuja could have ended the fight 2 seconds in by simply using Ultima, the very fact you fight him only shows that he was toying with them and got careless, which is how I feel most of the battles in the series go. As for Seymour, he's a wuss, the only thing he really had going for him power wise when he was living was Anima and he barely used her. Seymour doesn't count cause its obvious that he is actually weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
The final battle was more mental and spiritual than actually real and chances are that Sephy is definetly in complete shock after being physically killed. The fact of the matter is that Cloud didn't beat Sephy alone in VII and he only won against him in AC cause Sephy made the same mistake of toying with Cloud and let Cloud get a fatal blow in powered by a last resort of anger.Quote:
With Sephiroth I think it's almost the same. When it comes to his plans having a chance to be ruined he goes in metamorphosis to a god-like state to slay a party and after he's been defeated by said party, he has to resort to his basic form against Cloud.
He's actually more shocked by a lowly soldier still standing and having a high enough adrenaline to lift him. My problem is that I feel the whole "Sephy was so shocked it allowed Cloud to toss him in" only speaks poorly of Sephy's intelligence and also completely destroys immersion since Cloud tossing Sephy in the way its shown is physically and logically impossible since it would require Sephy to be silly enough to put all his strength into maintaining his stab stance as Cloud lifts him up and throws him over... Sephy was holding the sword one handed the strain of being lifted on his wrist let alone body mechanics would make Sephy just let go of the sword on instinct and ultimately makes this whole scene nothing but epic fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I am personally more inclined to believe the Last Order and Before Crisis retcon where Sephy kicks Cloud's ass and then purposely jumps into the Reactor of his own will to carry out his plans. It makes Sephiroth not look retarded and it doesn't have the immersion destroying power of the ridiculous original scene. This scene alone is one of the pivotal reasons where I slap my head and wonder why people like this game cause how can you swallow this lump of bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:. You cannot look at this scene with any sense of logic and believe it for what it is.
But Cloud only succeeds cause Sephy is foolish enough to leave himself open and underestimate his opponents. No matter how strong Sephy is he's still squishy and bleeds which in my book means he's kill-able and it wouldn't take as much as you would think. My argument is that Cloud is not actually stronger, Sephy just underestimates him and gets cocky battling him cause he knows where he comes from. Yes, he beats Zack down effortlessly, but when you actually watch some of those fights, Zack is holding his own a bit better than Cloud ever did in AC. Sephy also toys with Cloud whereas he actually fights Zack, even after knocking Zack into the lower levels of the Reactor he follows him down to make sure he takes care of him for good, he's never shown that level of respect to Cloud.Quote:
No matter how you look at it, this indicates Cloud is stronger than Zack. Sephiroth doesn't "try" in the entire Nibelheim incident (or for that matter, any time we see him, except possibly the endgame. Even in Crisis Core he doesn't really exert himself). He kills everything in one shot, never looking back. He judges everything to be infinitely weaker than him, and he is right. He doesn't treat Zack any differently than he treats Cloud, he tries to just blow through them both and keep going to Jenova, his goal. The difference is, he totally overwhelms Zack, while Cloud manages to succeed where everyone else, ever had failed.
Because then the gauntlet had been thrown down. He wasn't about to just leave the bee who stung him alone so it could sting him again.Quote:
If Sephy was trying to get to Jenova, as you claim, why didn't he simply end the assault on Zack after the first two strikes, which knocked Zack into a completely different room, well out of the way of his goal?
Even in the original Sephiroth wanted some quality time with Jenova. Zack was still capable of fighting and would have gone after Seph againa nd spoiled his joyful reunion.
@WK: It might not make ay sense logically but that's not the point. It's a big hero moment for Cloud. In fact the part with him throwing Sephiroth into the reactor makes the whole agonizingly dull Lifestream segment worth it.
It's why they changed it back, probably. The LO and BC version was such obviously Sephiroth pandering that it really was demeaning to Cloud's growth. So they made it right.
There is nothing that is not bad ass about what Cloud did in LO during this scene. Really the LO version is so much better, it makes Cloud look like a beast and Sephiroth doesn't look like an idiot nor does it make you scratch your head wondering how that was even possible. You get the best of both worlds in the LO version and its far more satisfying overall.
Compare and have fun...
YouTube - Zack and Cloud vs Sephiroth [Full Fight] Last Order Retcon
YouTube - Final Fantasy VII Walkthrough Part 81 The Clouded Truth Bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: Original...
Yeah no.
Cloud being impaled doesn't impress me.
Cloud being impaled then, through sheer force of will, defeating the seemingly invincible Sephiroth does impress me.
That entire segment in the Lifestream was establishing who Cloud truly was. Up until this point the hero wasn't a hero at all; he was a sham. So how does the game make you understand the true hero that is Cloud?
It's not by having the villain jump to his "end".
If I sat through that Lifestream memory crap iN FF7 only to have Cloud do...NOTHING but cheapshot and then get owned by Sephiroth, I'd have to agree with the haters who say FF7's story sucks. THat just be unforgiveably bad storytelling.
How is that not impressive, Sephy impales Cloud and Cloud through sheer force of will pulls himself through the Masamune to slam him into a wall. It shows a greater level of tenacity and once again, doesn't have the logical error that only a child could forgive that is Cloud knocking Sephy into the reactor in a manner that makes Sephiroth look like a total loser.
I feel the LO version shows how strong Cloud is but at the same time it shows how menacing Sephy is. Cloud knocking Sephy into the reactor is a poor excuse for heroism and character development cause it basically shows that its Cloud's fault for all the events of VII since Sephy was able to turn this misfortune into his road to godhood. Cloud doesn't win that fight, he accidentally makes the whole situation worse and since we know Sephy lives and comes back stronger, I cannot say this is worthy of being called a "win". Cloud doesn't prove anything here except that he got lucky enough to throw Sephy off his game twice, he proves he's a hero when he finally comes to terms with who he really is and leads the party into the Northern Crater. There is nothing logical or realistic about anything that happenes in the VII/CC version of the Nibelheim incident regarding Sephy and Cloud's minor confrontation. It's childish bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:, not excellent storytelling.
I don't really understand the significance of the distinction you two are arguing about. Both seem fairly equally realistic: in both, Cloud lifts the Masamune and throws Sephiroth to the side. In one case, he just hits a wall which has a floor under it, and in the other instance there simply doesn't happen to be a floor under Sephiroth. I don't see either case saying more or less about either Cloud or Sephiroth.
The problem with the original is that Sephiroth's body position and how he is holding the sword makes it logically unrealistic for Cloud to lift him up and be able to throw him with that force cause Sephy would have realistically just let go of the sword, not to mention that Cloud's movement to reach the ground is partially impossible and would have resulted in him just making his wound far greater without letting him actually touch the floor. The body mechanics of the entire original scene is just unrealistic and flawed.
Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics. Surprised or not, the scene is too long for Cloud to really catch Sephy off guard like that for him not to give in to the amount of pressure Cloud lifting him would have on his wrist. Sephiroth is literally putting his entire body weight onto his wrist for Cloud to lift him and that is just logically preposterous. Gravity and strain would have forced Sephy to let go whether he really wanted to or not regardless of his strength.
Basically, most people look at this scene and think "Cloud is teh awesomness!" I look at it and think "who the smurf would buy this load of bologna?" Most teenagers or adults should catch how utterly unrealistic that all was... Even I was in middle school at the time and caught all this, I don't understand why people choose to ignore such a terrible display of immersion destroying at a critical scene of the title. Its easily my least favorite scene in the game and the one that ultimately (besides Tifa finally telling Cloud the truth at the Northern Crater) that made me decide that VII was terrible in its writing and ultimately factored in another reason why the second disc is terrible.
I get it. And from those blocky, indistinct graphics it is very clear that Sephiroth's hand wasn't gripping the sword very tight since his knuckles weren't white and the muscles in his legs weren't tensed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I think you're looking a little too much into body positions and mechanics. If this was a movie, or even a game with clearer graphics, ok, maybe. :p
Regarding your last two paragraphs: even ignoring the above graphics argument and the typical "suspension of disbelief," I think you're overly dismissive of two factors: 1) Sephiroth's arrogance in the face of some random guard in his way, and 2) the fact that Sephiroth was ran through just moments before.
Now, I definitely agree that FF7 was poorly written, and that's the main reason that, while it's a fun game with some entertaining characters, I definitely don't rank it anywhere close among my top RPGs. That being said, I don't think that one scene was even near the list of worst examples of poor writing in the game.
Its one of two moments and they both generally snowball into other moments which snowball into other moments, which ultimately ruin the experience for me. Basically a few glaring problems starts revealing cracks in the other parts of the story. I ignore some of the graphical limitations but it doesn't change the initial problem of Sephy being that short sighted, despite his arrogance he's not a complete idiot which is what this scene really tells me. Sephiroth is one of the few villains who is actually known for his intelligence in the series and this scene only says he's an idiot and kinda dispels this myth about him.
This is why I prefer the LO version as it makes more sense and I feel it still let's Cloud have his heroic moments but not at the expense of making Sephy look like a complete fool.
YouTube - Crisis Core: C09S08 Goodbye Sephiroth [English Sub]
Above is a variation of the scene as seen in Crisis Core which is a bit more faithful to the original including the immersion destroying part...
On topic though, I would like to point out that looking at Sephy's body mechanics in his fight with Zack, he actually does move towards using both hands to reinforce his attacks which is more than he ever did for Cloud. He even deflects Cloud's attack one handed while being badly injured. Also, for fun and "lulz", look carefully at the scene where Cloud stabs Sephiroth and it becomes apparent that Cloud literally cut him in half from the waist. :D
Are you really bringing up logic and body physics in a fantasy game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And you're really using that as a basis to judge the story?
Wow.
I agree with this. I noticed this was weird on my first play through. Cloud just wiggles a bit and suddenly his gravitational pull is stronger. And physics dictates that Sephy is in control of the situation. But my immersion in the story was still unaffected, because I didn't take his actions literally. I just saw it as a visual model to show roughly what happened, like when you use your imagination when reading a book. For example, in a battle, you know realistically that they aren't all just standing in a line waiting for each other to finish their attacks, buts its the visual model given to us for gameplay purposes. Sorry I sort of rambled there, but I hope its clear enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I hate it when people say this because it's completely falacious. So its a world where people can use magic, but realistic physics blatantly exist and you can see them in simple things like gravity, anatomy, aerodynamics etc. when you play the game. I mean are you saying that you wouldn't question the game if the rocket took off without the thrusters, or if something fell up for no reason, or if Cloud's biological father was a moogle?Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarAre you really bringing up logic and body physics in a fantasy game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And you're really using that as a basis to judge the story?
Wow.
Advanced scientific knowledge clearly exists within FFVII. Do you expect me to believe that people can carry out scientific observations/experiments in a world where its physical laws suddenly randomize themselves at any given time? I know my explanations may be elaborate, but these are simple things that people can and do notice when looking even at face value.
Cloud is stronger IMO.
:)
If it destroys my suspension of belief and my ability to enjoy the story then yes, I can judge it that way. Sword mostly pointed out what I needed to say on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarAre you really bringing up logic and body physics in a fantasy game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And you're really using that as a basis to judge the story?
Wow.
Ultimately, we have different criteria for what we consider to be good writing and VII just didn't measure up for me. Yet as I was explaining to Raistlin, this is only one of many logical errors in the game but big ones like this make me notice the smaller ones I was able to ignore up until this point.
When we actually get into rendered 3D models, I have a harder time adding in my imagination like I was able to with older games. Its one of the reasons why I have a difficult time enjoying modern games cause they sorta take the player out of the story since everything is acted out in a better and more realistic manner than their predecessors. Course this might be why I've enjoyed VII a bit more in recent years cause its not as bad as modern titles on account it has not graphically aged well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword
Nowhere did I say that he was thrown off because he was shocked. He was surprised by Cloud's power, but that wasn't the reason he was thrown off, and please don't think that is what I was saying. He was shocked at Cloud's power, yes, but the reason he was thrown off is because Cloud was that damn powerful. He was stronger than Sephiroth, to an extent that was not only enough to shatter Sephiroth's views on his own omnipotence, but enough to actually surpass Sephy's strength and let cloud defeat him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoHe's actually more shocked by a lowly soldier still standing and having a high enough adrenaline to lift him. My problem is that I feel the whole "Sephy was so shocked it allowed Cloud to toss him in" only speaks poorly of Sephy's intelligence and also completely destroys immersion since Cloud tossing Sephy in the way its shown is physically and logically impossible since it would require Sephy to be silly enough to put all his strength into maintaining his stab stance as Cloud lifts him up and throws him over... Sephy was holding the sword one handed the strain of being lifted on his wrist let alone body mechanics would make Sephy just let go of the sword on instinct and ultimately makes this whole scene nothing but epic fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I am personally more inclined to believe the Last Order and Before Crisis retcon where Sephy kicks Cloud's ass and then purposely jumps into the Reactor of his own will to carry out his plans. It makes Sephiroth not look retarded and it doesn't have the immersion destroying power of the ridiculous original scene. This scene alone is one of the pivotal reasons where I slap my head and wonder why people like this game cause how can you swallow this lump of bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:. You cannot look at this scene with any sense of logic and believe it for what it is.
But Cloud only succeeds cause Sephy is foolish enough to leave himself open and underestimate his opponents. No matter how strong Sephy is he's still squishy and bleeds which in my book means he's kill-able and it wouldn't take as much as you would think. My argument is that Cloud is not actually stronger, Sephy just underestimates him and gets cocky battling him cause he knows where he comes from. Yes, he beats Zack down effortlessly, but when you actually watch some of those fights, Zack is holding his own a bit better than Cloud ever did in AC. Sephy also toys with Cloud whereas he actually fights Zack, even after knocking Zack into the lower levels of the Reactor he follows him down to make sure he takes care of him for good, he's never shown that level of respect to Cloud.Quote:
No matter how you look at it, this indicates Cloud is stronger than Zack. Sephiroth doesn't "try" in the entire Nibelheim incident (or for that matter, any time we see him, except possibly the endgame. Even in Crisis Core he doesn't really exert himself). He kills everything in one shot, never looking back. He judges everything to be infinitely weaker than him, and he is right. He doesn't treat Zack any differently than he treats Cloud, he tries to just blow through them both and keep going to Jenova, his goal. The difference is, he totally overwhelms Zack, while Cloud manages to succeed where everyone else, ever had failed.
Your own version makes Sephy seem far more pathetic and stupid than mine does. Rather than being beaten by something physically stronger than him, Sephiroth is defeated and his entire plan is endangered simply because he doesn't bother to try harder when a weakling begins to attack him? "Oh, I could squash this guy like a bug, but since he's slightly stronger than I expected him to be, so I'm going to let him derail my plans for five years."
Which brings me to the Before Crisis comment. Sorry, but him winding up in the Lifestream was not a good thing for Sephy's plan. It dispersed the JENOVA cells enough that Sephy didn't have enough to manipulate for his plans, and was largely the cause of the five year delay between the Nibelheim incident and the Jenova war. Remember, Sephy had only part of JENOVA with him when he took his little trip to the center of the lifestream. The majority of it wound up in the Shinra labs or scattered among the Sephiroth clones and SOLDIER members. Had Sephiroth not wound up in the Lifestream, he would have been able to collect all of JENOVA at once, skipping the entire Reunion aspect that takes five years and half of FFVII to complete. He would have had much more control, and would likely have been able to complete his plans much faster and never have had Aeris's interference at all.
Surprisingly incorrect, coming from you, Wolf. Cloud's abilities there are perfectly understandable, at least, the way I saw them. Had Cloud simply shifted around, yeah, he would have been unable to reach the ground, as he had no purchase or way to exert his own strength. But, since he grabs the sword, it all works out (though the blocky style makes the specifics somewhat vague). By grabbing it that way, he would be free to move his own body around (though, yes, that would have expanded the wound, that only makes his later feat that more impressive). Had he shifted his body upward and then downward, he would have built up momentum. Not a lot, necessarily, but just enough to reach the ground, giving his own feat purchase and allowing him to use his own strength to toss Sephy off the side.Quote:
The problem with the original is that Sephiroth's body position and how he is holding the sword makes it logically unrealistic for Cloud to lift him up and be able to throw him with that force cause Sephy would have realistically just let go of the sword, not to mention that Cloud's movement to reach the ground is partially impossible and would have resulted in him just making his wound far greater without letting him actually touch the floor. The body mechanics of the entire original scene is just unrealistic and flawed.
Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics. Surprised or not, the scene is too long for Cloud to really catch Sephy off guard like that for him not to give in to the amount of pressure Cloud lifting him would have on his wrist. Sephiroth is literally putting his entire body weight onto his wrist for Cloud to lift him and that is just logically preposterous. Gravity and strain would have forced Sephy to let go whether he really wanted to or not regardless of his strength.
Basically, most people look at this scene and think "Cloud is teh awesomness!" I look at it and think "who the smurf would buy this load of bologna?" Most teenagers or adults should catch how utterly unrealistic that all was... Even I was in middle school at the time and caught all this, I don't understand why people choose to ignore such a terrible display of immersion destroying at a critical scene of the title. Its easily my least favorite scene in the game and the one that ultimately (besides Tifa finally telling Cloud the truth at the Northern Crater) that made me decide that VII was terrible in its writing and ultimately factored in another reason why the second disc is terrible.
I'm not quoting that for the sake of us all but here's the answers.
1) Actually falling into the Lifestream helped Sephiroth cause it allowed him to increase his powers and gain mass amounts of knowledge about the Planet and its history... such as the Black Materia. The delay with his body also allowed him to stay undercover as he physically reconstructed himself and became much more powerful cause everyone assumed he had died. He had no known plan before he retrieved Jenova at the reactor, at this point of time he was still referring to Jenova as an Ancient. The Lifestream taught him about the truth behind Jenova (though he doesn't say anything about it until after your party finds out at which point he keeps up the whole. "I must avenge the Ancients!" speech) so yes, the whole plan was actually started because of Cloud's mistake.
As for the interpretation of the scene, I can't accept yours, Sephiroth is a being created to be the ultimate soldier whereas Cloud is still very much human at this point and even after going through the process to become a SOLDIER, Sephiroth is still strong enough to toy with him and smack him around like a ragdoll. Cloud is physically strong and I'm certain that adrenaline helped him overpower an injured Sephiroth, mostly cause he actually tried to fight back and was strong enough to catch him off guard. Sephiroth would expect a SOLDIER like Zack to pull that stunt off but a lowly infantrymen who can't even make it into SOLDIER or even man up and tell his friends he didn't reach his goal? The fact is, Cloud is not stronger than Sephiroth as much as he is able to take advantage of his opponents faults to eke out a slim victory. Having Cloud physically strong enough o beat Sephiroth from the beginning ruins his growth as a character and diminishes everything about SOLDIER and Sephiroth.
2) Even swinging his legs and holding the Blade Cloud would be unable to generate enough force to get him back to the ground, especially since he's stabbed in the shoulder in all version meaning his one arm is hurt and it's too high for him to gain proper leverage with his body core. He simply cannot get his body to the ground with his own strength (unless you are suggesting he's Son Goku ;) ) unless you were going to say he caused enough shift in his weight to force Sephiroth to let him down at which point Sephiroth should not be "amazed at his power" cause all he did was shift around enough to make skewering him up that high uncomfortable for Sephiroth and forced him to let him down.
In answer to your question...
I am
Sure, Sephy was created to be the ultimate machine, but he was created to be the ultimate machine by Hojo, whose idea of science was, let's face it, shiny buttons and bubbling potions, with no real logic or procedure behind it at all. Had Gast actually been the architect of Sehpiroth, I might be impressed by his "constructed to be the ultimate killing machine" background, but since he was created by Hojo, I'm just surprised that he even survived long enough to fight in the war. Hell, Dr. Nefarious is a better mad scientist than Hojo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Dude, did you miss the hair?Quote:
He simply cannot get his body to the ground with his own strength (unless you are suggesting he's Son Goku)
The facts remain as such: Zack's attack on Sephy failed. Zack was killed by Sephiroth (in the original, with a single swing of his sword). Cloud's attack on Sephy succeeded. Both Sephy and Dr. Insane Laughter are surprised by Cloud's strength, while neither one had seemed to notice anything really special about Zack (in the original game, anyway).
Actually, Zach was killed by the Shinra military when Zack and Cloud escaped from the Shinra Manison. Crisis Core was pretty darn accurate to the original in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
wtf are you guys talking about with "realism"?? the clue is in the name of the game title "final FANTASY", its not supposed to be "realistic".
having said that, i would have to say both are around equal. Zack took on 2 1st Class Soliders and won, and damn near the whole of the Shin-ra army, and with that many holes in him after being shot to death, i doubt Cloud would have withstood the same damage tbh.
Besides, who says Cloud stuffed the Original Sephiroth with his own sword...Sephy was in North Crater from what i knew, until the nearer the end.
(Btw, i havent played the full game in over 5 years, my memory of the game is slightly faded, and i haven't played CC in over a year).
Infact, Zack was only infused with a standard amount of Mako...like all other SOLDIER members. Who knows how much Hojo gave to Cloud, along with the Jenova cells, which must have ramped his body to ridiculous amounts of power, rending the argument: "him killing Sephy in AC = he's more powerful", useless...
I love Cloud, but I would have to say Zack
If "suspension of belief" has anything to do with your evaluation of a story, then I find it incredibly challenging to believe that you like Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics, or FFVI as much as you claim you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
But the fact that a game uses 3d models has no more to do with realism than 2d models. The original Mortal Kombat games were all 2d, yet they're infinitely more realistic than the best quality of games today - that's because they were real people!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Therefore, there's no intrinsic indicator of realism embedded in 2d and 3d games. FFVII's dumbell arms and calve hands are no more realistic than FFVI's worm arms and punctuation gloves.
Only your desire to undermine FFVII's legacy in its fans' eyes make it so.
Given your position in the Playstation thread that you were advocating 2D over 3D graphics at the time, I'm assuming this is something you've done wince the game was released.
I like his argument the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Bahamut
Think of it this way. It's like an athlete that uses 'roids vs an athlete that doesn't use 'roids and instead relies on his natural talents and strength. Cloud was injected with a bunch of "roids" to make him more powerful, but Zack, who withstood all that damage before he finally died, relied more on his natural strength.
Thus, Zack is more powerful by nature. Cloud is more powerful with help.
Ouch... tell me how you really feel about Hojo. I don't really feel you have an argument here as Hojo was quite on the ball about a few things and even the information he was wrong about (namely Jenova) was stuff Gast never learned about until after he met Ilfana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Sephiroth is also shown throughout the game to basically be a bio-weapon gone mad and nearly unstoppable. I'd say Hojo succeeded in the long wrong.
Zack's already a SOLDIER we know where his strength comes from and its incorrect about Sephy taking him down with one blow as we actually never see their duel until the Compilation. We hear swords clashing, meaning they actually fought and then Zack is thrown out of the chamber after getting the beating of his life. Cloud injures Sephy with a sneak attack and then later catches him off guard by knocking him into the the Reactor. Yet nowhere here does it state Cloud has some abnormal superhuman pre-destined strength. Adrenaline could easily accomplish Cloud overpowering a weakened Sephiroth.Quote:
Dude, did you miss the hair?
The facts remain as such: Zack's attack on Sephy failed. Zack was killed by Sephiroth (in the original, with a single swing of his sword). Cloud's attack on Sephy succeeded. Both Sephy and Dr. Insane Laughter are surprised by Cloud's strength, while neither one had seemed to notice anything really special about Zack (in the original game, anyway).
As for Hojo taking interest in him, he takes both Cloud and Zack to experiment on so yes, he was interested in Zack. Yet it should also be noted that Hojo suffers from "Mad Scientist" syndrome and thus finds anything he can experiment on as fascinating. Considering Hojo's intended fate for Cloud was to be a mindless Sephiroth Clone like the rest of the Nibelhiem survivors doesn't tell me that Hojo thought for a second that Cloud was special.
Sephiroth only made it to the Northern Crater after Cloud knocked him into the Lifestream during the Nibelhiem incident so this would be the real Sephiroth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Bahamut
As for the Mako/Jenova cells, The way the Ultimania details it is that a Sephiroth Clone could be thought of as a failed SOLDIER whose mind is shattered and decayed through the injection of Jenova cells and Mako infusion. This is why Zack is the failure in the experiment held in the Shin-Ra mansion; cause as a SOLDIER, he has already proven he is mentally strong enough to handle the procedure. This also consequently shows how Cloud was able to fool everyone into thinking he was a member of SOLDIER cause he did actually undergo the process and thus attained the super strength and marking of a SOLDIER but his mind was far from being able to handle it.
As for injecting him with more than normal, both Zack and Cloud were worked on together so chances are they both got radiated with the same amount of alien love but I doubt it would be too much more than a normal test subject as its shown time and again in the game that too much Mako and Jenova cells cause radical mutations. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Bahamut
By realism, I mean that things work in a logical fashion, his is the cornerstone of all sci-fi and fantasy writing as if you pull something out of your ass it destroys the illusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Sephiroth, holding a 180lbs. man up with one arm, skewered through a 7ft. tall katana is only made believable cause the game has established that Sephiroth is not human and thus was created to have super powers. Cloud, as a normal human defying simple body mechanics and physics doesn't work as well.
On the otherside though, a story can do something preposterous and silly and get away with it if you make them laugh. Sabin/Cyan/ and Gau somehow traveling down the Serpent Trench with a single old fashioned deep sea suit helmet only works cause it more funny than serious. Cloud having to dress up like a woman to infiltrate a sleazy crime lords mansion when we've watched him take down trained military guards and giant robots works cause the entire scenario is for comedic relief as opposed to this scene which is suppose to be taken straight and serious.
I'm just saying the whole thing looked awkward and didn't seem even plausible for a fantasy story to be able to pull this off cause its been established that Cloud is a simply "everyman". Hell, saying he's somehow mystical and special actual diminishes him as a character as the one charm he has is that he was a simple nobody who accomplished so much as opposed to a super soldier we were led to believe.
Realism brings in movement and body mechanics into the fold, it represents space. It adds an entire dimension that brings it closer to our own world but its actually the story itself that lends it to realism sometimes as the worlds themselves establish certain criteria that people can instantly pick up and understand. If your fantasy world is truly "everything goes" it would not look like anything we would recognize or probably even be able to appreciate. No matter how far fetched something is we can always gleam from it some intrinsic value which makes the whole fiction of a piece realistic to its audienceQuote:
But the fact that a game uses 3d models has no more to do with realism than 2d models. The original Mortal Kombat games were all 2d, yet they're infinitely more realistic than the best quality of games today - that's because they were real people!
Therefore, there's no intrinsic indicator of realism embedded in 2d and 3d games. FFVII's dumbell arms and calve hands are no more realistic than FFVI's worm arms and punctuation gloves.
Realism, is far more than just a physical representation created by one of our senses. The Sound quality we have today has been around for decades but was unmarketable because Visual mediums were far behind and thy discovered that if the audio and the visuals don't match up that it distorts the suspension of belief cause our senses would tell us that something wasn't adding up. Animation is another interesting element about realism, no matter how realistic animation is, it will almost never actual be drawn in a realistic manner regardless of whether its 3D or 2D because actually watching something unreal move in a realistic manner looks creepy and completely unrealistic despite being verbatim of body movements.
In the case of the scene we are discussing, it still looks awkward and weird despite being in high quality animation, its just the very body mechanics themselves being off that makes it look unrealistic as opposed to the animation being bad. Realism is not so much what we see as it is how we logically view our own world.
I would say I am more ranting than undermining, you give me too much credit ;)Quote:
Only your desire to undermine FFVII's legacy in its fans' eyes make it so.
I've spoken briefly about this scene before as simply that it looked awkward, its hardly what I would define as my "Pivotal reason for why VII isn't that great" as their are far more examples than simply this one and its the accumulation of these that cause my initial dislike of VII and my continual inability to rank it higher than its better crafted brethren.Quote:
Given your position in the Playstation thread that you were advocating 2D over 3D graphics at the time, I'm assuming this is something you've done wince the game was released.
In reality, you are partly taking my words a bit out of context but that's because I said it vaguely as I was avoiding another rant. My real issue with the 2d vs. 3d debate actual stems more from my first love which is fighting games. Some of the best 2D fighters came out around this time and were overshadowed by 3D fighters that are mostly terrible by today's standards and were frankly not that great even when they came out. It was the sheer love of the novelty of it all that bothered me and while VII is part of this argument, it is also partnered with Ocarina of Time and more recently with MGS1 for me as well so this is hardly some personal campaign to destroy VII's reputation, besides, what can I say that could possibly beat the Compilation from SE? :D
I think Zack is stronger. He survived 3 fights with 1st class Soldiers, 2 Mako showers, and fought off an army long enough to kick their ass to save Cloud's. Cloud survived a stabbing, Mako poisoning, and an identity crisis. He's also stronger emotionally. Cloud saved the world and what, fell into a state of depression? Zack was cheery after being betrayed, beaten, tested upon, and shot. He did what he had to do and didn't doubt himself at all. I like Cloud, out of the two he's my favorite, but Zack just seems stronger to me.
I don't know man, I thought Virtua Fighter was pretty good when it came out :)
Well... I'll give you Virtua Fighter (fun memories of the Sega Saturn) but the original Tekken was nowhere near as polished and has aged poorly and god knows we don't even want to start on Battle Arena Toshiden. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
With all thse things brought into a new light I am changing my answer. Zack is better, I'd forgotten about Clouds wheelchair incident and his ridiculous emo-nessQuote:
Originally Posted by Guardian XIII
"On the ball"?! When?! His idea of crossbreeding two entirely different species in the hopes of getting the best traits of both? His idea of randomly injecting everything with Jenova cells just to see what happens? His idea of sticking people into Mako condensation tanks for no reason?Quote:
Ouch... tell me how you really feel about Hojo. I don't really feel you have an argument here as Hojo was quite on the ball about a few things and even the information he was wrong about (namely Jenova) was stuff Gast never learned about until after he met Ilfana.
Sephiroth is also shown throughout the game to basically be a bio-weapon gone mad and nearly unstoppable. I'd say Hojo succeeded in the long wrong.
Nearly every idea he had is either completely screwy or simply a difference in degree from Gast's work. He takes Mako and Jenova infusions to higher levels, sure, but with no discernable refinement in technique.
The only thing he is remotely correct about is the reunion theory, and even that gets thrown upside down when nearly every JENOVA-infused body fails to complete the reunion, and the only one that survives being the "failure".