shuyin and tidus (spoilers)

i just replaid x-2 and x and in that order and it brought and interesting point to me.

tidus is a relfection of the fayth thinking of shuyin from the real zanercan, and when DZ came tobe then dream shuyin became tidus, it makes you wonder what the real jecht was like, and when tidus went to the farplane why wasn't he effected by the pyreflies like auron was and who was that woman that he seen, if you go off of logic on this sence his mother didnt realy exist in the first place how could she have ended up in the farplane? tidus isn't there.

wait now that im thinking, all three of them, tidus, Auron and Jecht spoke to yuna while she was fighting vegnagun, now i'm wondering how they spoke to them sence the pyreflies arn;t really the dead but recreate the memorie for the person OMG.

sorry for rambling on my own discussion but am i making any sense here? discuss.

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Originally Posted by sir helix

tidus is a relfection of the fayth thinking of shuyin from the real zanercan,

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I used to think this, and I've had huge debates with others over this, but unfortunately, this isn't true.

The Fayth created Dream Zanarkand, with all of its original inhabitants and Shuyin, 1000 years ago. Tidus existed in the present.

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Originally Posted by sir helix

tidus, Auron and Jecht spoke to yuna while she was fighting vegnagun

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Braska, not Tidus.

DZ is just as real as any other location in Spira. In the same way that Aeons are able to materialize based on whatever it is that they are made from (Pyreflies), so too can the inhabitants of DZ materialize. To put it simply, DZ is a physical location in Spira, and its inhabitants are based on the memories of the people who would have lived in the real Zanarkand had they not been involved in the War. If Zanarkand had been allowed to flourish and not been attacked by Bevelle, then the current DZ could represent one of the futures that could have resulted for the city. Tidus is supposed based on the actual memory of Shuyin, but after 1000 years, there's either decay or great boredom. However, just because he is based on someone else does not make him insignificant. He is fully, and really a person of his own. He's just got a different way of dying than the rest of us.

When the Fayth created Dream Zanarkand, their dreams summoned the memories of the city and its people right then and there. There would have been a dream Shuyin at that time too, and he would have dream-died of old age like a regular person would have.

There's no reason why the Fayth would decide to recreate someone based on their memories of Shuyin when they already did so 1000 years ago. Maybe Tidus could be Shuyin's great, great, great, (etc.), grandson, but not a representation of Shuyin himself.

I'm not sure that anything been said has made any sense so far. I know matter-of-factly that it hasn't made sense to me.

I've heard that Tidus was created while attempting to create the memory of Shuyin. Memories are immaterial and are never reliably represented. Since Dream Zanarkand is a composite of the memories of its 1000+ occupants, naturally the outcome may seem a bit muddled.
In the end, it really doesn't matter who was originally intended to be remembered. What became was a Blitzball player and then a corrupted warrior both having the same head. Who knows and who cares what Tidus or Shuyin really looked like 1000 years ago, or if either of them really existed as individuals. It's just as possible that both of them were composites of memories cobbled together about different people in different situations.

My primary point is that the creation of characters in FF10 through memories is a convoluted process and you shouldn't wasted your time dwelling on it. Chances are more likely that if Squee were to release a prequel (let's say it's about Shuyin and Lenne) that the characters we are already familiar with and Zanarkand itself would likely look completely different.

To summarize in direct relation to Tidus: His memories of Zanarkand are inconsequential to the path his life follows at the point when he meets Yuna. The memories merely serve as a link to Sin and Jecht. Tidus himself as we see him in Besaid may not be a true representation of the Blitzball player from Zanarkand. He may not have even existed by himself. Tidus may be a composite of the entire team. However, as it's been said, he becomes a real individual the second he appears in Spira's waters and that is all that matters.

DZ, and the memory of all the people who lived there (at the time) was created by the Fayth 1000 years ago. Since Shuyin lived in Zanarkand at the time as well, the Fayth would have no doubt created a dream version of Shuyin as well, 1000 years ago at that time. But the problem is, we see Tidus in present day Spira. It's impossible for Tidus to be the memory of Shuyin that was created 1000 years ago that still lives in the present, because Tidus is 17 years old, not 1017 years old. The idea of a time freeze is also out of the question, since we see flashbacks of Tidus when he was a kid talking with Jecht, and thus time flows normally in DZ.

There's also the fact that the Fayth do indeed clearly remember who Shuyin is. Bahamut's Fayth talks about him in FFX-2. But probably the biggest problem with the "Tidus = Memory of Shuyin" theory is that the fact that their names are different. If the Fayth was trying to create the memory of Shuyin, but knew his name was Shuyin, why is Tidus not named Shuyin?

How the Fayth create memories doesn't matter at all. The simple fact is, we know that DZ and the people that live in DZ (i.e. Shuyin) were created 1000 years before FFX started, and we know that the Fayth do remember Shuyin's name. Tidus was born 17 years before FFX started, and is not named Shuyin even though the Fayth remember Shuyin's name, so he isn't Shuyin.

I probably should've spent more time paying attention to the story of X-2 instead of trying to look up everyone's skirts. This thread has been good for me because I never really understood the Tidus-Shuyin relationship either.

From what I've gathered from above posters (and correct me if I am wrong):

• Zanarkand loses war against Bevelle.
• Remaining summoners of Zanarkand 'summon' a Dream Zanarkand with memories of all it's inhabitants within.
• 1000 years passes and DZ continues to exist within Spira, being summoned round the clock by the Fayth on Mt. Gagazet.
• In the millenium that passes, DZ experiences the passage of time as well, evidenced by the existance of Tidus' memories as a child, which are unique to him as Shuyin never had (as far as we can tell) a drunkard, Blitzball-playing father.
• Tidus leaves DZ and winds up in Besaid to begin his journey.
• FFX
• FFX-2

So if Tidus isn't Shuyin (or a memory of him dreamed by the Fayth), that would suggest that the Fayth have really poor imaginations. 1000 years later and there just happens to be a guy that looks, sounds and dresses exactly like another guy?

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

Remaining summoners of Zanarkand 'summon' a Dream Zanarkand with memories of all it's inhabitants within.

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Not quite true. All remaining inhabitants gathered on Mt. Gagazet (while singing Hymn of the Fayth) and became fayths. The summoner of all these fayths is for those who played FFXYu-Yevon. It works quite the same way as with aeons. Basically, DZ is an aeon.

This thread is exactly why I never understood the FFX universe.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

How the Fayth create memories doesn't matter at all. The simple fact is, we know that DZ and the people that live in DZ (i.e. Shuyin) were created 1000 years before FFX started, and we know that the Fayth do remember Shuyin's name. Tidus was born 17 years before FFX started, and is not named Shuyin even though the Fayth remember Shuyin's name, so he isn't Shuyin.

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How come Tidus aged and Shuyin didn't?

Shuyin did. The Shuyin in FFX-2 is, as the fayth of Bahamut stated, "just a shadow. The real Shuyin died long ago."

Oh and @PuPu, how do we know that Tidus isn't named Shuyin? We get to name him - but he must have a real name, which is never said. How are we to say that the fayth do not remember Tidus' name - they never did anything to indicate they forgot his name (except for not telling it, which is, however, caused by our ability to name him).

So then Shuyin being a shadow of the real Shuyin is the reason he has Tidus's face?

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Oh and @PuPu, how do we know that Tidus isn't named Shuyin? We get to name him - but he must have a real name, which is never said.

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...you're joking right?

Instruction booklet of game says so, FFX and FFX-2 Ultimania both say his name is Tidus. SE essentially says his name is Tidus, and the only reason why his name was never said in the game was for voice acting reasons.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

How are we to say that the fayth do not remember Tidus' name - they never did anything to indicate they forgot his name (except for not telling it, which is, however, caused by our ability to name him).

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Because what you say isn't a fact. Until what you say can be supported with evidence, it remains wrong until proven right. That's how theories work.

To put it simply, Tidus is a physical copy of Shuyin, but not emotional or mental. Whether this was by accident or design is not explained, but it seems like a heck of a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

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Originally Posted by PuPu

How the Fayth create memories doesn't matter at all. The simple fact is, we know that DZ and the people that live in DZ (i.e. Shuyin) were created 1000 years before FFX started, and we know that the Fayth do remember Shuyin's name. Tidus was born 17 years before FFX started, and is not named Shuyin even though the Fayth remember Shuyin's name, so he isn't Shuyin.

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How come Tidus aged and Shuyin didn't?

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Shuyin did. The Shuyin in FFX-2 is, as the fayth of Bahamut stated, "just a shadow. The real Shuyin died long ago."

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I'm still confused about Shuyin's existence. If Shuyin exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Tidus exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Jecht exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth... stop trying to break my brain.

And don't say "he's not a dream, he's a shadow." What the HELL does that mean?

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

I'm still confused about Shuyin's existence. If Shuyin exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Tidus exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Jecht exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth... stop trying to break my brain.

And don't say "he's not a dream, he's a shadow." What the HELL does that mean?

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To put it simply:
Tidus and Jecht are a dream of the Fayth. Tidus is a replica of Shuyin in part, in that he took on Shuyin's physical characteristics, but not his experiences.

Shuyin, the person, died a long time ago. He got shot.

Shuyin, the aberration that appears in FFX-2, is a collection of the memories/emotions/vengeance collected at the time of the real Shuyin's death. In every way, he is a Fiend. A superpowered Fiend with a girlfriend. In this case, he is the metaphorical shadow of his former self, created by the Pyreflies.

Do you know why people use the metaphor of a shadow? Because it sounds cool. When you stand in front of a light source, you create a two dimensional projection onto the ground, based on how the light hit you. But when you reach for a shadow, you can't touch it, and you have lost a spatial dimension (depth) when observed. In fact, you can even screw with the shadow by changing the light's angle, or by placing your hand in front of the light source. What people are trying to say, is that there is no substance to the Shuyin in FFX-2; he's just a collection of memories of being pissed. Okay, so he can try to blow up the world, but what he represents is not wholly what the real Shuyin represented. He has lost an element of himself; he's not particularly deep or insightful. He's just there. How else can you describe a shadow as anything other than "it just happens to be there?"

The actual Shuyin is the one who lived 1000 years ago in Real Zanarkand, and was shot and killed by Bevelle soldiers. He becomes an Unsent, and you see Unsent Shuyin in X-2.

There is another Shuyin that was a dream of the Fayth. This Shuyin lived in Dream Zanarkand 1000 years, and "dream died" from unknown causes.

Tidus being his own person that was "based" off Shuyin is somewhat plausible, but I've heard people say that he was the Fayth's interpretation of the real Shuyin, which is false, because there was a dream-Shuyin that was created 1000 years ago and dream-died in DZ.

I want to point out that Shuyin being just a shadow is true but he's not entirely consumed by negative emotion.
He is doing everything so he can be with Lenne. In fact, what ultimately stops him is his love for Lenne.

So, like I told some stubborn people a long time ago, Shuyin is not just a mass of bitterness. He's a lot of bitterness but driven by love.

Perhaps that means love is a negative emotion.

But whatever.

Tidus is most likely the great great great great great great great great great great great great grandson of the Dream Shuyin.

Shuyin was real at one point, and Tidus was his Pyreflie in the DZ, but the DZ world grew on its own creating an almost alternate universe.. Tidus is the memory of Shuyin, but was completly differant person having grown up in the DZ.

Okay, it definitely helps to think of Shuyin as a Fiend instead of a Shadow.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Tidus being his own person that was "based" off Shuyin is somewhat plausible, but I've heard people say that he was the Fayth's interpretation of the real Shuyin, which is false, because there was a dream-Shuyin that was created 1000 years ago and dream-died in DZ.

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?

I'm a little lost too. Where is it established that there was a second Shuyin in DZ?

Your own post shows that you knew how it works, how do you not get this?

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I've heard that Tidus was created while attempting to create the memory of Shuyin. Memories are immaterial and are never reliably represented. Since Dream Zanarkand is a composite of the memories of its 1000+ occupants, naturally the outcome may seem a bit muddled.

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Shuyin was one of the 1000+ occupants that lived in real Zanarkand 1000 years ago, therefore a dream-Shuyin was also created by the Fayth when they first created Dream Zanarkand. Clearly the Fayth remember who he is, Bahamut even mentions his name in X-2, there was no way that they could have gotten muddled and decided to name dream-Shuyin as Tidus.

You could say Tidus is the result of the Fayth saying "Hey guys, let's make a guy that looks just like Shuyin and call him Tidus!" but Tidus was not the person that the Fayth created 1000 years ago when they first made Dream Zanarkand.

For those who still don't quite get it, here's what Bahamut said at Mt. Gagazet in FFX:

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The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They summoned
all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

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Shuyin was a person who lived in Zanarkand back then, so the Fayth's memories of Shuyin created a dream-Shuyin. We can assyoume that dream-Shuyin lives a normal lifespan and died ~900 years before FFX.

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Originally Posted by BG-57

I'm a little lost too. Where is it established that there was a second Shuyin in DZ?

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It's implied that when the Fayth created DZ, they constructed a city identical to the real city shortly before its destruction. Since Shuyin would have been a resident of the city before it was destroyed, the conclusion is straightforward.

PuPu's quote and assessment is not incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

?

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To put it simply, the real Shuyin died, and left a "Fiend" copy of himself. A DZ version of Shuyin was made by the Fayth, who lived a regular (DZ) lifespan. Fastforward 1000 years, and you've got Tidus, who is like DZ Shuyin, but only in appearance. Whether he is a descendant of the DZ Shuyin or the result of the metaphorical dicking around on the Fayth's part, is not conclusively known.

So the producers of Final Fantasy X/X-2 have as of yet offered nothing to clarify precisely whether or not Tidus really is "based on" Shuyin or if he looks like him because of ancestry, is that right?

So the DZ Shuyin is never explicitly mentioned, but a logical conclusion to events established elsewhere in the games. So by extension there's also a DZ Lenne that DZ Shuyin presumably lived with happily, unaware that their real life templates died in misery.

Externally the resemblance between Tidus and Shuyin drives the plot; if Shuyin had looked like anyone else, there would be no X-2. But internally to the plot it raises a lot of issues that the game avoids addressing.

Yes to all three posts.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

So the producers of Final Fantasy X/X-2 have as of yet offered nothing to clarify precisely whether or not Tidus really is "based on" Shuyin or if he looks like him because of ancestry, is that right?

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Yes, nothing definitive. This is the commonly accepted conjecture based on in-game evidence and the Ultimania.

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Originally Posted by BG-57

So the DZ Shuyin is never explicitly mentioned, but a logical conclusion to events established elsewhere in the games. So by extension there's also a DZ Lenne that DZ Shuyin presumably lived with happily, unaware that their real life templates died in misery.

Externally the resemblance between Tidus and Shuyin drives the plot; if Shuyin had looked like anyone else, there would be no X-2. But internally to the plot it raises a lot of issues that the game avoids addressing.

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Nothing explicit.

Well, even if he didn't look like Tidus, we could guess that Yuna's enough of a self-preservationist that she wouldn't let a crazy dude do his best Tesla impression.

Shuyin and Tidus have a few similarities. Their looks being the most obvious ones but then there's also their absolutely identical fighting styles and the fact they both wanted to save a summoner they loved.
Shuyin of course went to more extreme lengths than Tidus.

Similarity 3 doesn't connect them in any specific way but 1 and 2, plus everything the game and Ultimania tells us, does connect them. It just seems Square finally realized people like to think for themselves and so they didn't do their best to destroy all speculation and independent thought.

Shuyin and Tidus' connection is up for us loyal fans to decide for ourselves.

To be sure, the writers could have simply had her investigate the disappearance of the summonable Fayth in the Temples, which would have led her to the same place. But of course they went with the 'is it Tidus or not?' approach.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Shuyin and Tidus' connection is up for us loyal fans to decide for ourselves.

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All right then, Tidus (and Jecht or Tidus's mom...) descended from Shuyin (most likely Jecht since the Fayth dreamed him as a champion... not Tidus's mom). That's the idea I am now willing to accept. No further deliberations need apply.

I've just learned that, apparently, X-2 International specifically says Tidus is the Dream Shuyin.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I've just learned that, apparently, X-2 International specifically says Tidus is the Dream Shuyin.

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Proof plz

I dunno. *shrug* I'll go ask the guy who told me for the evidence.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I've just learned that, apparently, X-2 International specifically says Tidus is the Dream Shuyin.

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I am quite certain, that this is not true.

1. The International features actually have nothing to do with the story at all. (Do they ever? Aside from the Dark Aeons in FFX being summoned by Bevelle priests...)
2. There is no ending for releasing Tidus.

It might be in the final Shinra-ending (when you've got 100% creature completion, I haven't got it yet), cause I can't think of any other point in FFX-2 Int. where you'd find out that Tidus = Dream Shuyin. I'm quite sure it wouldn't be International-exclusive, but appear in the original FFX-2 as well.

Hmm... but when seymour shows a sphere of zanarkand how it looked 1000 years ago, tidus confirms it is where he lived. Name one place thats looked the same for 1000 years especialy if your all saying the community there developed new sibilings.

which means i believe that when he entered sin, there was a time skip as well as becoming "real".

I believe shuyin is just a coincidence, MORE then enough reason for yuna to go skipping along with reason in her life :)