shuyin and tidus (spoilers)

[Tavrobel]

I'm still confused about Shuyin's existence. If Shuyin exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Tidus exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Jecht exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth... stop trying to break my brain.

And don't say "he's not a dream, he's a shadow." What the HELL does that mean?

To put it simply:
Tidus and Jecht are a dream of the Fayth. Tidus is a replica of Shuyin in part, in that he took on Shuyin's physical characteristics, but not his experiences.

Shuyin, the person, died a long time ago. He got shot.

Shuyin, the aberration that appears in FFX-2, is a collection of the memories/emotions/vengeance collected at the time of the real Shuyin's death. In every way, he is a Fiend. A superpowered Fiend with a girlfriend. In this case, he is the metaphorical shadow of his former self, created by the Pyreflies.

Do you know why people use the metaphor of a shadow? Because it sounds cool. When you stand in front of a light source, you create a two dimensional projection onto the ground, based on how the light hit you. But when you reach for a shadow, you can't touch it, and you have lost a spatial dimension (depth) when observed. In fact, you can even screw with the shadow by changing the light's angle, or by placing your hand in front of the light source. What people are trying to say, is that there is no substance to the Shuyin in FFX-2; he's just a collection of memories of being pissed. Okay, so he can try to blow up the world, but what he represents is not wholly what the real Shuyin represented. He has lost an element of himself; he's not particularly deep or insightful. He's just there. How else can you describe a shadow as anything other than "it just happens to be there?"

[PuPu]

The actual Shuyin is the one who lived 1000 years ago in Real Zanarkand, and was shot and killed by Bevelle soldiers. He becomes an Unsent, and you see Unsent Shuyin in X-2.

There is another Shuyin that was a dream of the Fayth. This Shuyin lived in Dream Zanarkand 1000 years, and "dream died" from unknown causes.

Tidus being his own person that was "based" off Shuyin is somewhat plausible, but I've heard people say that he was the Fayth's interpretation of the real Shuyin, which is false, because there was a dream-Shuyin that was created 1000 years ago and dream-died in DZ.

[Forsaken Lover]

I want to point out that Shuyin being just a shadow is true but he's not entirely consumed by negative emotion.
He is doing everything so he can be with Lenne. In fact, what ultimately stops him is his love for Lenne.

So, like I told some stubborn people a long time ago, Shuyin is not just a mass of bitterness. He's a lot of bitterness but driven by love.

Perhaps that means love is a negative emotion.

But whatever.

Tidus is most likely the great great great great great great great great great great great great grandson of the Dream Shuyin.

[Tyrant57]

Shuyin was real at one point, and Tidus was his Pyreflie in the DZ, but the DZ world grew on its own creating an almost alternate universe.. Tidus is the memory of Shuyin, but was completly differant person having grown up in the DZ.

[Mercen-X]

Okay, it definitely helps to think of Shuyin as a Fiend instead of a Shadow.

Tidus being his own person that was "based" off Shuyin is somewhat plausible, but I've heard people say that he was the Fayth's interpretation of the real Shuyin, which is false, because there was a dream-Shuyin that was created 1000 years ago and dream-died in DZ.

?

[BG-57]

I'm a little lost too. Where is it established that there was a second Shuyin in DZ?

[PuPu]

Your own post shows that you knew how it works, how do you not get this?

I've heard that Tidus was created while attempting to create the memory of Shuyin. Memories are immaterial and are never reliably represented. Since Dream Zanarkand is a composite of the memories of its 1000+ occupants, naturally the outcome may seem a bit muddled.

Shuyin was one of the 1000+ occupants that lived in real Zanarkand 1000 years ago, therefore a dream-Shuyin was also created by the Fayth when they first created Dream Zanarkand. Clearly the Fayth remember who he is, Bahamut even mentions his name in X-2, there was no way that they could have gotten muddled and decided to name dream-Shuyin as Tidus.

You could say Tidus is the result of the Fayth saying "Hey guys, let's make a guy that looks just like Shuyin and call him Tidus!" but Tidus was not the person that the Fayth created 1000 years ago when they first made Dream Zanarkand.

For those who still don't quite get it, here's what Bahamut said at Mt. Gagazet in FFX:

The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They summoned
all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Shuyin was a person who lived in Zanarkand back then, so the Fayth's memories of Shuyin created a dream-Shuyin. We can assyoume that dream-Shuyin lives a normal lifespan and died ~900 years before FFX.

[Tavrobel]

I'm a little lost too. Where is it established that there was a second Shuyin in DZ?

It's implied that when the Fayth created DZ, they constructed a city identical to the real city shortly before its destruction. Since Shuyin would have been a resident of the city before it was destroyed, the conclusion is straightforward.

PuPu's quote and assessment is not incorrect.

?

To put it simply, the real Shuyin died, and left a "Fiend" copy of himself. A DZ version of Shuyin was made by the Fayth, who lived a regular (DZ) lifespan. Fastforward 1000 years, and you've got Tidus, who is like DZ Shuyin, but only in appearance. Whether he is a descendant of the DZ Shuyin or the result of the metaphorical dicking around on the Fayth's part, is not conclusively known.

[Mercen-X]

So the producers of Final Fantasy X/X-2 have as of yet offered nothing to clarify precisely whether or not Tidus really is "based on" Shuyin or if he looks like him because of ancestry, is that right?

[BG-57]

So the DZ Shuyin is never explicitly mentioned, but a logical conclusion to events established elsewhere in the games. So by extension there's also a DZ Lenne that DZ Shuyin presumably lived with happily, unaware that their real life templates died in misery.

Externally the resemblance between Tidus and Shuyin drives the plot; if Shuyin had looked like anyone else, there would be no X-2. But internally to the plot it raises a lot of issues that the game avoids addressing.

[PuPu]

Yes to all three posts.

[Tavrobel]

So the producers of Final Fantasy X/X-2 have as of yet offered nothing to clarify precisely whether or not Tidus really is "based on" Shuyin or if he looks like him because of ancestry, is that right?

Yes, nothing definitive. This is the commonly accepted conjecture based on in-game evidence and the Ultimania.

So the DZ Shuyin is never explicitly mentioned, but a logical conclusion to events established elsewhere in the games. So by extension there's also a DZ Lenne that DZ Shuyin presumably lived with happily, unaware that their real life templates died in misery.

Externally the resemblance between Tidus and Shuyin drives the plot; if Shuyin had looked like anyone else, there would be no X-2. But internally to the plot it raises a lot of issues that the game avoids addressing.

Nothing explicit.

Well, even if he didn't look like Tidus, we could guess that Yuna's enough of a self-preservationist that she wouldn't let a crazy dude do his best Tesla impression.

[Forsaken Lover]

Shuyin and Tidus have a few similarities. Their looks being the most obvious ones but then there's also their absolutely identical fighting styles and the fact they both wanted to save a summoner they loved.
Shuyin of course went to more extreme lengths than Tidus.

Similarity 3 doesn't connect them in any specific way but 1 and 2, plus everything the game and Ultimania tells us, does connect them. It just seems Square finally realized people like to think for themselves and so they didn't do their best to destroy all speculation and independent thought.

Shuyin and Tidus' connection is up for us loyal fans to decide for ourselves.

[BG-57]

To be sure, the writers could have simply had her investigate the disappearance of the summonable Fayth in the Temples, which would have led her to the same place. But of course they went with the 'is it Tidus or not?' approach.

[Mercen-X]

Shuyin and Tidus' connection is up for us loyal fans to decide for ourselves.

All right then, Tidus (and Jecht or Tidus's mom...) descended from Shuyin (most likely Jecht since the Fayth dreamed him as a champion... not Tidus's mom). That's the idea I am now willing to accept. No further deliberations need apply.