The whole concept of Fal'Cie makes no sense [Full game spoilers]

Just beat the game last night, and asside from all my other gripes with the ending one thing really stood out to me.

As I understand these are the facts that we know from the game (or have to assume are true):

- Fal'Cie were created by the 'Maker'
Source: Dysley
- Fal'Cie can only do what what they are created to do
Source: Dysley and Orphan
- Fal'Cie can have desires outside of what they are created to do
Source: Orphan wanting to die even though he can't kill himself, Fal'Cie wanting the Maker back even though the Maker didn't make them to bring 'him' back
- Fal'Cie can't change when they are made to do
Source: Orphan
- Coccoon did not exist when the Maker left
Source: Dysley
- Fal'Cie build cocoon
Source: Dysley, common knowledge

Since Fal'Cie can't change their purpose and there were obviously no Cocoon building and running Fal'Cie around back then (since the idea of Cocoon didn't even exist) the only way it could have possibly been created was by making new Fal'Cie with purposes involving the construction and running of Cocoon.
To summarize: Logically Fal'Cie must be able to create other Fal'Cie with purposes different than their own.

Now:
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY JUST MAKE A FAL'CIE TO KILL ORPHAN?!?!
That just strikes me as a million times more logical.

MacGuffin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We as the player know only as much as the main characters know, and they're in the dark about a lot of things even up until the end of the game.

I reckon that most of the facts we've been told are lies or distortions of the truth. There are far more pieces to this puzzle! The fact that they were able to loose their brands after explicitly being told that they will become a Crystal or a Cie'th tells us that the 'laws' aren't as set in stone as we think they are.

I think we'll learn more about the mythos in the other FNC games that may shed light on these 'inconsistencies'.

I think that even when considering all the information in the game we are given no plausible reason for the antagonists actions it is a little more than an inconsistency.

And if you think about it, what is to stop all the Fal'Cie on Pulse from just deciding to just start again with another Coccon?

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I think that even when considering all the information in the game we are given no plausible reason for the antagonists actions it is a little more than an inconsistency.

And if you think about it, what is to stop all the Fal'Cie on Pulse from just deciding to just start again with another Coccon?

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We don't know! Maybe we'll find out one day...

It's never said they can't do anything that isn't what they were created to do, they simply 'can't go against their nature' as Barthandulus put it.

Think of it like this. The human mind has a reflex against stabbing itself. But look at old japanese culture where the ref would 'fall' on his knife to kill himself if he made a wrong call after a Sumo match. They simply found a way to bybass their own nature to achieve the end result.

And in response to their actions not making sense?

Both Snow and Lighting wanted to save Sarah, getting them involved in the initial incident.

Snow acts constantly on that desire, getting caught by Fang and Cid in the process. He learns of Cid's ideals and the Idea that the Fal'cie aren't so good, so decides to join with him.

Hopes is after Snows head, and isn't going along because of his crest or any of the other main plot points, but his own subplot to get stronger to kill Snow. True, it's a little silly he follows after Snow in the beginning pre-la'cie.

Vanilles reasons for helping Hope chase Snow at first aren't really there, true, but all her actions thereafter make perfect sense. She follows Sazh, not wanting to get to involved, but helps out in the end to basically repent for her causing many of the opening events and characters sob stories.

Sahz was there in the beggining to save his son from turning into a monster, and didn't really join in the main plot until forced to by his government pursuers, as well as Vanille.

Fang is basically just trying to complete her focus, and is under the wing of Cid for now to not get caught.

I wont' comment on Lightning though, some of her actions for a bit are kind of silly. :p

And this is without looking into the fact they are all forced to fight on the basis they are constantly pursued. Them being La'cie basically forced them to be targets, so they would be involved regardless of their own desires.

Of course they were all in it, so when the worlds fate became relevant to their decision, they unanimously decided to not be douche bags and attempt to not kill everyone they had ever known and loved.

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And in response to their actions not making sense?

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This isn't about the characters it is about the Fal'Cie not making sense :)

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The human mind has a reflex against stabbing itself.

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Yes, but we can still do it. Even assuming that a Fal'Cie couldn't kill itself there is nothing saying a Fal'Cie couldn't kill another. If they put that one line of dialog in it would have made the story actually make a little bit of sense. Or how about selecting humans that actually want to destroy Coccon?

The Fal'Cie had hundreds of years to think up a way to kill themselves, and the best they can come up with is to give a bunch of humans special powers and hope they do it? Seriously?

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Originally Posted by No.78

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I think that even when considering all the information in the game we are given no plausible reason for the antagonists actions it is a little more than an inconsistency.

And if you think about it, what is to stop all the Fal'Cie on Pulse from just deciding to just start again with another Coccon?

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We don't know! Maybe we'll find out one day...

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There are at least 2 more games in this crystal series coming out..Versus plus that game for the handhelds.We might learn more about the maker and the falcies in those.

Too early to say its ridiculous.:)

It is ridiculous if the plot of a game doesn't make sense in and of itself. The game doesn't even acknowledge it as an omission. Sequals should only ever be used to continue a story and flesh out an existing one.

That is like saying Bad Dudes is full of drama and social commentary, we just don't know it until we play the sequel.

I would think that is obvious. Any story that needs to use manuals to explain it, or other books or sequels, is in fact a failure of story telling and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

It is ridiculous if the plot of a game doesn't make sense in and of itself. The game doesn't even acknowledge it as an omission. Sequals should only ever be used to continue a story and flesh out an existing one.

That is like saying Bad Dudes is full of drama and social commentary, we just don't know it until we play the sequel.

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If we go by this, the entire Harry Potter series sucks.

It's not the story that needs explaining it's the mythos.

Sometimes there are just things we're not told! Just, assume there's an explanation. That's what I do.

And said mythos spans over the entire FNC, and that compilation leaves room for a XIII-2 and other entries of FNC to further explain it. And before some people say I shouldn't blindly suck up whatever SE throws at me, I'm not even defending XIII, I'm pointing out factors that should be taken into acount, as well as holes in certain arguments. That's all.

Yeah I agree with you, I think the other 2 games will hold answers regarding the mythos that we only get a glimpse at in XIII.

Or we can all just admit that Square really didn't think this plot through. Like, at all.

And the proof of that is...?

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

And the proof of that is...?

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The dozens of plot holes throughout the game that directly contradict OTHER plotholes? I promise you, this game has "just didn't care" plastered all over it

EDIT: Before we start a big argument, let me just say that nobody is going to convince me that the plot of this game was thought through at all. Even if Square makes a XIII-2 (God I hope not) to retcon all this. It's just poorly written.

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If we go by this, the entire Harry Potter series sucks.

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I'll leave my personal opinion of Harry Potter out of this :D
Though I haven't red them, I have seen snipets of the movies and it seems to me like it is done in reasonable fasion. The story acknowledges that there are questions that haven't been answered, and they will have to be answered in the sequel.

In FFXIII there is no such acknowledgement. The game essentially wraps itself up in a neat little package for a chliche happily ever after ending. Had it even been brought up in game it would have been an element that we have to wait to find out about. As it is it looks an awfully lot like they just didn't take the care to fully think about their plot.

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I promise you, this game has "just didn't care" plastered all over it

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That is where this is coming from. I spent the whole game going through hopping that the plot that made no sense would be wrapped up somehow in the end. This didn't happen. To me it looks like the writing team was so caught up in their character interactions that they whole plot was conceived just to get the characters into situations to exchange the dialog they wanted them to say. If they want to focus on characters and have a simple plot they should by all means go for it. Not my cup of tea, but I can deal. Just keep the plot simple and making sense.

EDIT To Arcane's edit: I started this thread hoping someone could explain something I missed so I could actually accept this games plot. I would much rather like a game than dislike it. Doesn't look like that is going to happen :(

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

It is ridiculous if the plot of a game doesn't make sense in and of itself. The game doesn't even acknowledge it as an omission. Sequals should only ever be used to continue a story and flesh out an existing one.

That is like saying Bad Dudes is full of drama and social commentary, we just don't know it until we play the sequel.

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If we go by this, the entire Harry Potter series sucks.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

EDIT To Arcane's edit: I started this thread hoping someone could explain something I missed so I could actually accept this games plot. I would much rather like a game than dislike it. Doesn't look like that is going to happen :(

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I want to point out that I genuinely did like this game. The plot made little sense for the second half, but the characters more than made up for it for me. I'm not saying the game is BAD for the plotholes, I'm just saying they obviously didn't put in as much time to work on the plot as they should have.

As for the topic of the thread, I guess you could say that the fal'Cie were all made by the Maker with the general goal of "make the world better for humans." Each one chose a role that fit them once Cocoon was set up, rather than specifically being made with a set goal, like "You're the sun, you make food, etc." Thus, fal'Cie can't make new fal'Cie. Perhaps they filled the same role on Pulse before Cocoon was even made.

I mean it's not hinted at anywhere in the game that this is the case, but if it helps you buy the plot, there you go.

Does it say anywhere that the fal'Cie themselves made Cocoon? I mean, if I made a wooden box out of planks with a hammer and nails, can you say the hammer and nails made the box, or that I did it? Likewise, maybe the fal'Cie used l'Cie to do the making itself for them, while they simply thought of the blueprints. That way, it isn't really a plothole, as the game clearly states fal'Cie uses l'Cie to do what the fal'Cie themselves can't directly do because it's against their nature. And then the fal'Cie still technically made Cocoon.

Then again, what about specific fal'Cie like Eden who serves as Cocoon's sun, or the fal'Cie who makes the food... Aargh, you're right, it doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Then again, what about specific fal'Cie like Eden who serves as Cocoon's sun, or the fal'Cie who makes the food... Aargh, you're right, it doesn't make sense.

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Yes! :D

It was said that the Vile peaks are left over junk that the Fal'Cie brought up to fix Coccon after Fang trashed half of it last time. We can logically infer that they built, or at least had the ability to build Coccon in the same fashion.

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I want to point out that I genuinely did like this game. The plot made little sense for the second half, but the characters more than made up for it for me. I'm not saying the game is BAD for the plotholes, I'm just saying they obviously didn't put in as much time to work on the plot as they should have.

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If I disliked everything about the game I wouldn't be posting here, I would just ignore it and pretend it didn't happen like I do for XII. I'm just going off about the plot here. :)

Maybe it's a glitch in the fal'Cie's AI. They always appear as machines in their battle forms, after all. XD

In the same way walking into a street lamp is a glitch in my AI :D
It would have been nice if they had elaborated a lot more about the Fal'Cie in game. Stuff like watching Prof. Gast's recordings in Icicle Inn was one of the best parts about the series.

Speaking of machines, in the ending when Orphan was going off and laughing like a cartoon super villian did he remind anyone of Megatron?

I was too busy calling him nasty words for being such a sadistic bastard (killing Fang over and over again, wow, I'm surprised SE did that).

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

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And in response to their actions not making sense?

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This isn't about the characters it is about the Fal'Cie not making sense :)

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The human mind has a reflex against stabbing itself.

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Yes, but we can still do it. Even assuming that a Fal'Cie couldn't kill itself there is nothing saying a Fal'Cie couldn't kill another. If they put that one line of dialog in it would have made the story actually make a little bit of sense. Or how about selecting humans that actually want to destroy Coccon?

The Fal'Cie had hundreds of years to think up a way to kill themselves, and the best they can come up with is to give a bunch of humans special powers and hope they do it? Seriously?

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The characters comment was in response to someone elses post, not the thread topic.

Yeah, the Fal'ciel can kill others, just not other Fal'Cie. I think thats actually so blatently obvious there isn't a need to state it. Otherwise they would have just flat out killed Orphan. Not every detail needs explained if it's glaringly obvious.

So yeah, they gave humans the power to do it. How else would they? Give the power to rabid squirels? Outside of Fal'ciel, there is really only Humans. And given Barthandulus's speech at the end, it's revealed Humans have a very high potential for power, enough to even defeat the Fal'cie.

Don't get me wrong, the main plot has some serious issues, but not making sense is not one of them. Made just fine sense without even reading the Datalog.

It doesn't seem obvious that Fal'Cie can't kill other Fal'Cie at all. They just can't go against their own function (which included their continued function). If they made a Fal'Cie that had the function of killing Orphan, well...

Also, why wouldn't you take humans that actually had a desire or predisposition to destroy Coccon in the first place? I could understand if they were in a rush, but they had literally hundreds of years to plan this out. Why would they act if they weren't in a rush?
The plan with the cavalry sounds like a half baked way to get them back to Coccon, indicative that their plan was completely falling apart. Of course anyone should have realized that it was completely obvious that is what would happen if you took a bunch of random people and told them to destroy the world.

Well, the fal'Cie main flaw was that they saw humans as tools only, and thus failed to see the power of one's own will and dreams.

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Well, the fal'Cie main flaw was that they saw humans as tools only, and thus failed to see the power of one's own will and dreams.

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They kind of contradict themselves there. They say they see people as only tools, but they also say they admire people's abilities to make their own choices. Just one more reason I can't bring myself to buy the Fal'Cie.

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Originally Posted by arcanedude34

As for the topic of the thread, I guess you could say that the fal'Cie were all made by the Maker with the general goal of "make the world better for humans." Each one chose a role that fit them once Cocoon was set up, rather than specifically being made with a set goal, like "You're the sun, you make food, etc." Thus, fal'Cie can't make new fal'Cie. Perhaps they filled the same role on Pulse before Cocoon was even made.

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Just saying, I think this makes more sense than fal'Cie being able to create other fal'Cie.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

It doesn't seem obvious that Fal'Cie can't kill other Fal'Cie at all. They just can't go against their own function (which included their continued function). If they made a Fal'Cie that had the function of killing Orphan, well...

Also, why wouldn't you take humans that actually had a desire or predisposition to destroy Coccon in the first place? I could understand if they were in a rush, but they had literally hundreds of years to plan this out. Why would they act if they weren't in a rush?
The plan with the cavalry sounds like a half baked way to get them back to Coccon, indicative that their plan was completely falling apart. Of course anyone should have realized that it was completely obvious that is what would happen if you took a bunch of random people and told them to destroy the world.

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You know, except for the fact that after a centry or two one didn't think 'Hey, why don't I stab Orphan myself, gee that would save a lot of time'.

If the Fal'Cie were able to kill other Fal'cie there really wouldn't be a story without some drastic changes to the current plot.

And perhaps they just didn't have the chance to get someone who wanted Cacoon destroyed? It didn't seem as if they could just go around to whoever they wanted. They kind of had to pick their La'ciel on a circumstantial basis.

That was part of the Fal'Cie lore as far as I understood it. They couldn't just change what they were doing. I can buy that they can't kill themselves because it would go against their nature. How they can't physically do anything contrary too their function, but can dream up and force grand schemes on humans is a little sketchy but it was stated in game so I can deal.

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If the Fal'Cie were able to kill other Fal'cie there really wouldn't be a story without some drastic changes to the current plot.

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That was my point, there was no real plot going on. Underneath there was no real feasible reason for these things happening.

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And perhaps they just didn't have the chance to get someone who wanted Cacoon destroyed? It didn't seem as if they could just go around to whoever they wanted. They kind of had to pick their La'ciel on a circumstantial basis.

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They kind of had the entire Cocoon under their complete control. There is no way they couldn't have picked exactly who they wanted. Though you are right that they could not have physically gotten the l'Cie themselves, remember they have the entire army at their beck and call to go round people up for them.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Just beat the game last night, and asside from all my other gripes with the ending one thing really stood out to me.

As I understand these are the facts that we know from the game (or have to assume are true):

- Fal'Cie were created by the 'Maker'
Source: Dysley
- Fal'Cie can only do what what they are created to do
Source: Dysley and Orphan
- Fal'Cie can have desires outside of what they are created to do
Source: Orphan wanting to die even though he can't kill himself, Fal'Cie wanting the Maker back even though the Maker didn't make them to bring 'him' back
- Fal'Cie can't change when they are made to do
Source: Orphan
- Coccoon did not exist when the Maker left
Source: Dysley
- Fal'Cie build cocoon
Source: Dysley, common knowledge

Since Fal'Cie can't change their purpose and there were obviously no Cocoon building and running Fal'Cie around back then (since the idea of Cocoon didn't even exist) the only way it could have possibly been created was by making new Fal'Cie with purposes involving the construction and running of Cocoon.
To summarize: Logically Fal'Cie must be able to create other Fal'Cie with purposes different than their own.

Now:
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY JUST MAKE A FAL'CIE TO KILL ORPHAN?!?!
That just strikes me as a million times more logical.

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Your conclusion is erroneous about what must occur for cocoon to exist, that or too linear in thought, and I will explain why:

As you established:

Fal'cie are created by the maker, and have a function that they were created to perform and cannot go against this task. They are slaves to their own 'focus,' much like a l'cie has to fulfill it's focus.

Fal'cie have free thought.

Cocoon didn't exist when the Maker left.

So, why is the conclusion false? Because it assumes that Fal'cie are given explicit instructions on every exact detail on how to do the job they can't go against. For example, a Fal'cie is given the task to create food for humans. It absolutely has to make food, but there is no demand as to -how- it has to make food. It could grow wheat one year and rice the next, but as long as it's still providing food, it's still performing it's job.

So in essence, cocoon's existance is very much possible by the collaberation of Fal'cie - all it takes is one Fal'cie having the 'focus' to protect humanity (which I -think- you could describe Orphan's focus as) and deciding that it would be better to do it by creating a shell for them to live in from the wilderness. The fact that Fal'cie have free will makes collaberation possible and makes the creation of a place like Cocoon possible - without the necessity of a Fal'cie being specifically created to 'create' cocoon. Additionally, given that Fal'cie have consciousness they then therefore have the ability to learn and adapt to do their job better and more efficiently - 'hey it's easier to protect and provide for mankind if they're in a 'cocoon' than if they're out in the Pulse wilderness!'

That really isn't a plot /story / mythos hole.

Barthandaleus is the perfect proof of Fal'cie not being forced to do their job in one specific way, so long as they do their job, and don't do something directly contradictory to their job.

Though I have no direct quote atm, it was stated that Coccon was created exclusively for the purpose of being destroyed in a sacrifice. There was no intention of helping humans at all.

An interesting line of though with the latitude of a Fal'Cie's ability to act. You bring about the thought that they should be able to perform any action that is not in contradiction to their 'focus' (I will use the term focus from here on, lacking a better term to describe it. Obviously this is a different concept from the focus of a l'Cie). As such any Fal'Cie should be able to aid in the construction of Cocoon so long as they are not contradicting the focus given by the makers.

However, this doesn't explain the existence of Fal'Cie such as Orphan. From what you have said I gather there are two possibilities:
a) he has a focus to power Cocoon (my interpretation)
b) he has a focus to help humanity in a more general sense and choses to power Coccon

However, in Case B Orphan should then have the ability to withdraw power from Cocoon, as it is not an essential and core component of his focus. Withdrawing power would be in direct violation of Case A, and therefore impossible if we were to assume this model.
One could argue that allowing Cocoon to plummet would be too close to a violation to whatever his generic focus was, but torturing Fang into killing him is just as close. Both are not direct violations of this 'focus', but both end with the immediate loss of power to Coccon.

Barthandaleus states his focus is to oversee the Fal'Cie of Cocoon. Letting one of those Fal'Cie die and cease to be able to preform their function is in direct contradiction to this focus. The only explanation I see is that the ultimate purpose of all of the Fal'Cie on Cocoon was to die in the sacrifice.

Interesting response. I hope to hear more from you. :)

Orphans only stated 'Focus' was to provide Eden with Power, and honestly we don't even have the slightest clue as to what Eden's 'focus' is. So there really isn't an issue at all with Orphan's Focus so much as an Issue with Eden's focus.

Honestly, it's freakishly vague about the purposes of all three of those Fal'cie.

That's the real issue with this story. It's not that there are plot holes, it's that it's so freakishly vague in this regard they don't even give you the chance to find one. :p

I think a key point is that this story isn't entirely about Barthandulus or the past, it's about the viewpoint of the characters involved. We see very little of what goes on when the characters are not around, and I believe that is intentional. If they wanted to tell us everything about the world, it would be in the form of an Encyclopedia. No matter how many questions you may come up with, there will always be more questions once those are answered. Such is the way of the history of worlds, especially when it is not accurately documented by historians who have inevitably been swayed by the interference of corrupt fal'Cie. This is the story of the characters, not the history behind the world. Every FF has similar stuff here and there throughout the stories so far as I can see that leave you asking questions.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY JUST MAKE A FAL'CIE TO KILL ORPHAN?!?!

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They don't have the power to create other fal'Cie. At least, I've never seen any evidence of such a thing happening. To my understanding, the fal'Cie that moved to Cocoon already had similar purposes. It's not so much "help Cocoon" as "create food" or "create light" etc. Hell, there could be some that simply had a purpose of hospitality, and pretty much everything about Cocoon is effectively hospitality. Barthandulus himself is an architect, not a creator or destroyer. With this in mind, he could only put things into motion, 'suggest' things, offer illusions that fit his design so that it will progress to his intentions. However, that can itself be a good or bad thing. You can, of course, be the architecture of destruction.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

And if you think about it, what is to stop all the Fal'Cie on Pulse from just deciding to just start again with another Coccon?

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What's to stop the Germans from recreating the Nazi army? Technically, not a lot. But a distinct lack of an evil dictator who wants to destroy the world probably has something to do with it. I don't believe the Pulse fal'Cie have any intention of recreating Cocoon - all the fal'Cie that wished to side with Barthandulus went to Cocoon and the others shook a fist or two at them whilst staying on Pulse. That would explain why everyone on Pulse thought that Cocoon was evil - why would they unless the Pulse fal'Cie were telling them such things?

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

The Fal'Cie had hundreds of years to think up a way to kill themselves, and the best they can come up with is to give a bunch of humans special powers and hope they do it? Seriously?

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The 'Maker' designed them so that they could not kill themselves. It's not unreasonable. Maybe some of them have a purpose of not being able to destroy things. Time can't always change design.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Also, why wouldn't you take humans that actually had a desire or predisposition to destroy Coccon in the first place? I could understand if they were in a rush, but they had literally hundreds of years to plan this out. Why would they act if they weren't in a rush?

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They needed Pulse l'Cie, not Sanctum l'Cie. They couldn't be picky with who they got, and they had to find a way to get them to Cocoon in the first place. It may well be that they did not plan this from the start and that they only made the plans once they found that the Pulse l'Cie had managed to destroy the Pulse fal'Cie. It may have been only at that point when they considered such possibilities as we have no evidence that l'Cie had killed fal'Cie before without becoming Ragnarok.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

They kind of contradict themselves there. They say they see people as only tools, but they also say they admire people's abilities to make their own choices. Just one more reason I can't bring myself to buy the Fal'Cie.

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I would say the better word is 'envied' the people's ability to make their own choices. They used them as tools - most people did what was asked of them out of fear of becoming a Cie'th. It's no different to a mob leader using a gangster. The gangster is capable of making his own choice, but he still does what he is told - he is a tool. However, in the case of the fal'Cie, the tool is doing something they simply could not do on their own, regardless of consequence. They just couldn't. Mankind can't drill holes with their hands, so they use tools to do this. We can't kill people from distance, so we make tools to do this. The only difference with fal'Cie/l'Cie is the exact reason that the fal'Cie also envy the l'Cie - the fal'Cie are not capable of doing whatever they want by limitation of their grand design by the Maker.

As for purpose etc...
Some provide energy.
some provide life support.
Some provide ecology.
Some provide transportation.
Some provide routes.
Some provide creation/design.
None provide death. It is entirely plausable (and given what is said, would make sense) that the fal'Cie were simply designed by the Maker to say "you will not take the life of a fal'Cie, be it by your own hands or by a mechanical tool or beast." He could have even said "by any means at all" but there would always be the loophole in that humans can do whatever the hell they please.

There's a LOT which isn't answered in this game (I guess they're leaving the door open for a sequel). For instance just what *is* this maker, and are the fal'Cie actually alive or are they just Terminator style AI gone wrong... I mean they do look kind of metallic and manufactured. Maybe the "maker" was actually just humans in the first place, thousands of years ago, and the war of the machines is long forgotten.

I guess it'll be answered in 7 years or so when FFXIII: Advent Crystarium is released :p

I had a better reply typed out, but it logged me off since I went to watch a movie in the middle of it, so it's lost to the annal's of the internet.

The maker is just the god figure in the world. There really isn't anything known about it other than the fal'Cie were created by it, and the fal'Cie remember it. The fal'Cie then in turn created humans if I remember right.

But in essence it comes down to this: fal'Cie are inherently prevented from doing any direct action against their 'focus.' So any action they -do- perform isn't directly against their 'focus' by nature of them having performed the action.

If I absolutely cannot do A, but I do B, which may look like A to outsiders, then even though it looks like A it must not be A, because I absolutely cannot do A, and it must therefore be B.

So while fal'Cie were created with the purpose of killing Orphan - and Orphan wanted to die, Orphan still couldn't just lay there and let the sword kill him - Orphan still had to fight to the maximum of it's ability.

There's an interesting plot analysis here:
Final Fantasy 13 Backstory Summary ver 0.2 (SPOILERS) - Final Fantasy XIII Message Board for PlayStation 3 - GameFAQs

Its accuracy is in question, but it's the most sense I've seen of it so far (still lots of questions though)

One thing I'm wondering is what happens to everyone after it all... sure they saved the world, kind of, but only through the quick thinking of Fang and Vanille. The rest of them had knowingly sent Cocoon plunging to its doom - as has been said, it seems that they'd decided to risk the whole world and millions of people based purely on the belief that they can change things, and got lucky.

Makes you wonder how many people must be after their blood. If you consider how angry and murderous Hope went at the beginning of the game over the death of his mother when Snow was trying to fight for a good cause, and multiply that by the number of deaths that must've occurred when the contents of Cocoon got scrambled like an egg... I don't think they'll necessarily see them as heroes. At the very least it'd take a lot of time and convincing before the people would understand and believe the truth about the fal'Cie. Still, I guess this is getting mildly OT.

Not to mention everyone in the world already hated them before they even took out Orphan. The whole knocking Coccon out of the sky is sure to smooth things over though :) Or that they are essentially in the middle of nowhere in Pulse, miles away from Cocoon with no apparent way to get back up and in even if the wanted to.

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At the very least it'd take a lot of time and convincing before the people would understand and believe the truth about the fal'Cie.

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"Pulse l'Cie are totally not evil and out to destroy your world and way of life. The fact they we just did is simply a funny coincidence."

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The maker is just the god figure in the world. There really isn't anything known about it other than the fal'Cie were created by it, and the fal'Cie remember it. The fal'Cie then in turn created humans if I remember right.

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I seem to remember it being said that the Maker created Fal'Cie and humans, though I could be wrong. Truth be told I am only assuming the maker exists at all in the first place because we have scant other evidence to go on. With the track record of JRPGs it wouldn't even be close to a surprise if it was all just another false religion.

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There's a LOT which isn't answered in this game (I guess they're leaving the door open for a sequel).

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You are much more optimistic than I am :p

Loony, I'll get to you when I have more time. :)

The Maker did indeed make the humans as well as the fal'Cie. The fal'Cie merely found a way to create l'Cie from humans.

"You'll get to me in time" - oo-er, that sounds ominous! I do hope at least that some of your questions are being answered in ways that you can accept.

EDIT: And I totally agree that they'll be high on the Most Wanted lists of a few people. I imagine that upon finding out that Pulse isn't at total war with them that things will pick up, but that would take some time considering how powerful the monsters in that area are. I'd be more interested in the Pulse fal'Cie's actions, as they never much liked Cocoon's fal'Cie. Will they be accepting of the Cocoon human group? Will they turn them, too, into l'Cie to the point that they are driven to extinction?

I'm too lazy to read all of the posts so forgive me if this has already been said, but the way I see it the fal'Cie could have made Cocoon because, from what I understand, the Cocoon fal'Cie were created to help nurture humans. If that's their basic function then building Cocoon to make it easier would not be out of the question. Also, it's a good way to get what they want done too. They want the Maker back so they found a loophole to do what they were made to do and to bring him back. Then there's just the small problem of finding a way to finish their plan.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

EDIT: And I totally agree that they'll be high on the Most Wanted lists of a few people. I imagine that upon finding out that Pulse isn't at total war with them that things will pick up, but that would take some time considering how powerful the monsters in that area are. I'd be more interested in the Pulse fal'Cie's actions, as they never much liked Cocoon's fal'Cie. Will they be accepting of the Cocoon human group? Will they turn them, too, into l'Cie to the point that they are driven to extinction?

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Do we know that is where the population of Pulse went? Where does that information come from? I was always curious, but the game seemed to offer no answers.
I don't necessarily know that Pulse Fal'Cie have specific dislike for Cocoon Fal'Cie either. I mean, sending people to destroy Cocoon is exactly what they want, so it almost sounds like they are in cahoots.

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"You'll get to me in time" - oo-er, that sounds ominous! I do hope at least that some of your questions are being answered in ways that you can accept.

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Nothing sinister, I just saw your post and it looked like it was long and covered many points. In my experience it usually takes a half hour to respond to something like that, which I haven't had to dedicate to a single post the in last few days :) I just don't like to see someone who put that much effort into writing something ignored.

Reading the Analects would answer these questions about Cocoon's construction quite handily. It's stated in them that Lindzei, another god-like being on par with the Maker(but evil, apparently), created not only Cocoon, but the fal'Cie that run it, and then left just like the Maker did. No plot-holes, not contradictions, at least not on that particular point.

I haven't read the Analects, so this is kind of coming out of my ass, but why would the Fal'Cie of Cocoon want to summon the Maker if they were Lindzei's 'children' in the first place? Seems to me that just kicks the plot whole to the other side of the room instead of closing it. Like I said, I haven't read them, so the answer to this may be in there as well. When I get back from work. ;)

It is suggested that the one called Lindzei may in fact be Barthandelus in the official guide, although that is only written as a passing theory rather than solid information.

The Analects are well worth reading, though, totally.

EDIT: Oh, and espritduo, it may say they are "of the line of Lindzei" or whatever, but it also notes that...

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As our fal'Cie are the children of Hallowed Pulse, so are the fal'Cie who lurk within Cocoon the brood of Lindzei.

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Basically, all fal'Cie are the children of Pulse, the god who created, er, Pulse.

I'm not sure what you mean, but that quote is actually saying, in a rather grammatically awkward way, that the Cocoon fal'Cie are NOT of Pulse origin, but from Lindzei.

If you fix the sentence so that it flows in a more down to earth way.....

As our fal'Cie are the children of Hallowed Pulse,

so the fal'Cie who lurk within Cocoon (are) the brood of Lindzei.

The awkward placement of the second "are" can make it look at first glance like it's saying the Cocoon fal'Cie are the same as the pulse ones, but looking at the end of the sentence you can see that the "are" is actually referring to "Lindzei's brood". You can look at it like this: AS this is the case, SO that is the case. For example, "as piglets are the children of pigs, so are lambs the children of sheep."

Man, I feel like I'm taking the SAT's again....

Ah, fair point then. :) It's very awkwardly written!

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Bad Dudes is full of drama and social commentary

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It is. The President has been kidnapped by ninjas! Ninjas!

I am just going to throw in here that this game wasn't so much a game about plot and story, as much as it was about character development. You really understood the character... But the story, outside of the character's interactions with one-another... They all sucked.

Bingo. I think you just hit the nail of what I consider to be the shining part of this game: the characters and their development. The story, in hindsight, was a bit of a mess (although it introduced nice memorable concepts like the pretty darn evil l'Cie slavery) and if you had it on fast/auto-battle it was almost leaning towards a hack-n-slash... but as a character piece with all the conflicts, resolutions and development I thought it was up there with the best. Not quite to Cloud Strife levels of complexity, but that would take some meeting or beating anyway.

And the characters do have a HUGE impact on whether I like or dislike a game as a whole, often more than the game itself. (This also explains why I disliked XII so much, even though the gameplay was pretty cool and the story was.. reasonable).

I wouldn't say even this is perfect (Snow and Lightning were weak characters IMO) but I would say it's one of FF's far better offerings in that department.

If examples are required
(SPOILER)
Hope going through his grief, from intense anger to eventual acceptance - although there wasn't as much in between as there should've been, it was nice to watch. And at the same time going from quite a coward and a negative person to the one who would be pushing the party forward and raising their spirits (in fact I'd say Hope was one of my favourite characters. YMMV)

Sazh going through various levels of despair and running away, to the same kind of murderous anger (out of character but understandable in the circumstances) to a certain amount of acceptance and hope etc.

Vanille's lies and hidden truths, really a refreshing change to see what's underneath the irritating happy-go-lucky exterior that at least one female character always has

Fang always appearing very firm and confident in her standpoints, and yet switching that standpoint a couple of times in the game as the cracks in her certainty appear. There wasn't bucketloads of in-your-face development, as this character was done a lot more subtly than her demeanor but it's all there when you read between the lines. She's also plain cool.

Snow - okay, one of the weaker ones. One track "hero" mind. He did seem to mature a little as the game went on... call it subtle.

Lightning ironically was probably the least interesting character IMO and didn't change as much as I'd have liked (smile properly dammit!) but did basically screw her head on and stop being heartless - well the character's like an unfinished homage to Cloud or Squall I guess.

On the NPC side of course you have the obvious internal/loyalty conflicts of Rosch, Cid et al.