Did you like FINAL FANTASY XII?

what are are your thoughts on it?

I have mixed feelings about it. I thought the story had a lot of potential but came up way short. The pacing is this game was god awful, I don't think anyone can argue that point. The characters lacked personality. I didn't like how you can make any character anything. Basch as a white mage just seems strange. I prefer the set class system like in ff9. it gives the characters an identity. I felt that the license board was just a crappier version of the sphere grid. I thought the music was solid, but forgettable. graphics were absolutely amazing, no argument there. I didn't really like the battle system that much either. it wasn't strategic enough. Just set up your gambits and sit back. i think i went through the whole game with pretty much the same gambits. I thought FFX had the best battle system, I don't understand why they changed it. I thought the "open world" aspect of the game was overrated. There really never any freedom. just an illusion. I thought hunts were annoying. They made it way too time consuming. Half the time you are running from place to place trying to find a person, then trying to find the monster, then trying to find the person again, it just got tiresome. it would have been a lot better if they just gave a hunt option in the menu screen. I thought the game just lacked an "oomph" I never really got into the game. Even the moments that were supposed to be emotional just weren't to me (like the Bur-Osmice part). I admit that the tower part at the end of the game with Gabranth was good, but it was just too little too late for me.

overall rating: 6/10. I just that that the game lacked soul. it almost seemed apathetic.

thoughts?

I absolutely loved it. One of my favourite FFs ever made. It has a handful of flaws, but overall it's a magnificent game.

One of the best titles they've put out :D!

Not the best, far from the worst. Definitely superior to most of what Japan creates in the RPG area. Needed a Moogle party member for my pure amusement, though.

I thought the game was terrible.

My feelings have gotten even worse about it over time because of the mistreatment I received when I was a member of Gamefaqs.
I was called names and my life was threatened over a mere videogame.
So I quit Gamefaqs.

Needless to say that made me hate the game..although I have struggled to try to be more opened minded about it.

The graphics were very good for a PS2 game.

But Matsuno had a breakdown and quit before the game was finished.

The plot and character developement are very poor and not up to FF standards imo.

The game lacks cohesion and proper pacing as others have pointed out.

There's no bonding with the characters.I never felt any identification with them.

The randomness was excessive when it came to acquiring items and with the chests.

The magic system wasn't fully developed.

Vayne lacks as a bad guy.Certainly wasn't up there with Kefka, Sephiroth or Kuja for example..or even Seymour.

There were other flaws in the game but that's enough.

It still amazes me that FFXII's defenders were so rabid about the game as to..at least in one forum/website act so immorally and in such a beastly fashion over a mere videogame. Still makes me mad and it was some years ago.:mad2:

You don't see the same level of defense for FFXIII and I find that perplexing.

oh well..

Still..I try to be tolerant of those who like the game although I don't understand why they like it.

I am a big fan of Tactics and I like Ivalice as a setting...I 've never gotten to play Vagrant story so I don't know how that feels.Maybe it's part of the Ivalice mystique that people like FFXII.:confused:

I really didn't care for it. I loved the battle system, but I hated the characters (or character involvement, because I did like Fran, Balthier and Penelo). I loved the locations and the graphics, but I didn't care for the plot. I also found the villains lackluster.

I guess in the end it's a "meh" for me. It does have some qualities I do like. Like I said, I adored the battles -- I spent more time hunting marks than anything. :p

The only reason why I can't say I consider it the worst in the numbered FF series is because I haven't played FFII and FFIII yet. It's definitely the worst one I've played in the numbered series though. It's not a terrible game, but it's not up to the high standards of previous FF's.

It'll always be the black sheep of Final Fantasy to me. xD sorry!

It's almost perfect, in my opinion, thanks to Balthier!

I love Final Fantasy XII. I'm too tired right now to rant about why, but for one, I've never understood why people say this game lacks a heart or soul...? I cried for Fran at Eruyt Village, was very saddened by the Mt Bur-Omisace scenario and I cried during the ending (not because it was sad, but the bittersweet triumph of it). There were many moments I felt touched by a character's moral dilemma or observations. I loved the growing friendship between Vaan, Penelo and Larsa. Perhaps I am just too soft. But it was the first FF game where I didn't make this face: ~_~ at some cheesy overdramatic declaration of affection. Yes, its heart was very understated and quiet, but its still there and I prefer it that way.

edit: I guess if you compare XII to a game like XIII where the character interaction is very much in the style of a passionate melodrama, I can understand why people think XII was dry or apathetic. I happen to enjoy passionate melodramas so I like the characters of XIII, but I also love XII's evasive and subtle way of handling emotions. It's more realistic and therefore, to me, the better.

IMO, it ain't too bad, but I just can't accept that this game is a Final Fantasy. And that's because of the battle system, it's just not Final Fantasy-ish.
Also, I didn't really like the story, but at least there were lots of sidequests and things to discover.

My favorite in the series.

I'm aware it has flaws, but this is true for all games. And perception can easily play a heavy role in what is classed as a flaw. For example, i liked that the characters weren't explored too deeply. You know exactly what you need to know. I always found games like FFVII to be suffocating with the depth of their characters. Constantly showing the characters react to every tiny advance they make, and forcing us through flash backs to further show how the characters have evolved, it drags down the pace to help the player build a connection with them. But not everyone will connect with all the characters. Usually in a FF game, i'll only like half of the playable characters which means half of the character depth is an annoyance i don't care for.

As for pace in FFXII, that is really up to how you play the game. If you're like me and spend hours in dungeons treasure hunting or chaining monsters, then yes, the pace suffers. But if you move through dungeons swiftly then no it doesn't.

But the favorite part for me is the control. If i want to create a party with specific roles, or divide abilities between characters evenly that's my choice. If i want to just control one character and let gambits handle the other two, or if i want to control all three characters, or let gambits do it all, that's my choice. If i want to take a break from the plot and hunt marks, go fishing, treasure hunt or whatever, then i can do that. I can play the game the way i want, customization ftw.

I disliked the quickening and esper systems, which were horribley executed, but everything else is perfect for me specifically. The music, the graphics, the plot, characters, battle system, everything was perfect

I liked XII very much. That is, until I played the International Zodiac version. I really liked that version better than the original because of the features that were added like pressing L1 to speed game up, playable Espers and Guest characters, and twelve different license boards(instead of the original one), each corresponding to a different Zodiac sign and job to name a few. I recommend this version to anyone that uses swap magic on their PS2. I didn't care for the story that much, but I loved the gameplay.

I love it! It is so fun to play and the characters weren't as annoying as the ones in X and VIII.

Best combat out all the series. Well.. I can't make that judgment since I haven't played XIII, but it's the best out of the ones I've played.

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Originally Posted by Crossblades

I liked XII very much. That is, until I played the International Zodiac version. I really liked that version better than the original because of the features that were added like pressing L1 to speed game up, playable Espers and Guest characters, and twelve different license boards(instead of the original one), each corresponding to a different Zodiac sign and job to name a few. I recommend this version to anyone that uses swap magic on their PS2. I didn't care for the story that much, but I loved the gameplay.

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I use Swap Magic to play a US version of XII on my PAL PS2. Is there an English version of International Zodiac or is it Japanese only?

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Originally Posted by Persephone Stephanie

I use Swap Magic to play a US version of XII on my PAL PS2. Is there an English version of International Zodiac or is it Japanese only?

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Unfornately, it's japanese only. However, playing through the international version shouldn't be a problem if you've already beaten the original. Plus, I made a FAQ thread about it a long time ago showing the 12 license boards, location of some teckniqs and magicks(some are no longer bought in the international version), etc. Let me see if I can find it.

EDIT - Found it!

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fan...ther-info.html

It's not one of my favorite FF's.

But that's okay, because it's easily one of the best games I've played over the last few years, up there w/ Metal Gear Solid 3/4, Uncharted 2, etc. It's a powerhouse that puts most "next-gen" games to shame with just how damn good it is.

While I agree with most of reinward's criticisms, as I have in previous threads, I simply can't with the combat. Even though you make your gambits, sit back and watch it go, there's incredibly deep strategy there. Gilgamesh shows that better than anything. Playing him the first time can be heartbreaking. Playing him when you're a master of the Gambit system is a piece of cake, and it shows just how damn deep this game is.

I mean there's not really a lot to say, FFXII is just a game I can sit back and play literally all day long and love it, chaining monsters, going for a secret Esper, completing Marks, getting my characters customized.

Only real complaint I can say that was bad is learning Technicks on the License Board. They're all bunched up in the corner so you have to make a "Technick"-job character, whereas some abilities are good for my mages, others for my knights/thieves.

The story bored me to death but the game itself is actually very fun with plenty of things to do. I wish I still had a PS2 so I could see if I can not get bored of the story and finally beat it; I got to the final dungeon and didn't even know it. Serves me right for succumbing to the game's attempts to make me not care.

the problems were Zodiark, Omega Mark whatever it was and Yiazamat.

shrugs.

The game left a lot to be desired as a game.Sad that Square seems to have overcompensated to excess with FFXIII.:mad:

Did anyone else hate the summons?

Because I hated them. :colbert:

It wasn't too great in my opinion. I mean, I liked it as a game but it didn't feel worthy of the FF title to me.

I have a politics degree and even I thought there was too much in the plot. I much prefer a "the whole world will be destroyed" type plot.

The pacing is terrible.

As others have said there is just so much wasted potential with this game. :( I adore Baltheir and Fran and think they are well thought out even if not all of it made it into the game. Ashe... she annoys me so much but she could have been fantastic, she could have been the definitive strong female protagonist but as with a lot of this game there's a distinct feeling of "that'll do." Bashe was almost there, vaan.... well he was pretty average orphan story. Someone said to me once, "he's just a bit too "my parents died in a giant cliche"" lol

The battle system for me... well it just doesn't stick out, I don't hate it, I don't love it either.

The are faaarrrrrr too many dungeons, it's just a relentless grind of "go here get x, go here get y..."

I did love the marks though even if I didn't get to the hard ones. I love the missions in XIII now too :)

I still think XII is a good game, there are just too many half arsed bits to make it a great game.

But I'd like fran and balthier to get a spin off :p

No I loathed it. I don't think anything disappointed me more apart from X-2 and XIII.

XII was the first MAIN FF that I actually didn't want to finish. It was a chore to grind my way through the same tired old dungeons and absolutely no decent plot to be found. The amount of people who mistook the absent story as "deep" is frightening.

Let me sum up my thoughts:

- No decent story

- Character development non-existent, most characters joined the cause "because" and had absolutely no back story or motivation for being there. The total amount of dialogue in this game must be far less than any other FF game after V.

- Graphics very good but boring

- Gambit system is a dumbed down battle system which takes control away from the player. I survived the whole game with 2 gambits. Attack and Cure.

- Summons were pathetic and useless and if I remember right, take all your MP to 0 rendering them a liability. Half the time you ran away hoping they would do 1 move before being finished off.

- License system allowed no real differences between players and it was impossible to know without a guide which were actually the strongest before you acquired them and trudged half way across the board.

- Limit break moves were tedious, lasted too long and rather pathetic.

- Sidequests were relegated once again to more battles, this time, clan battles. Mini Games didn't exist as far as I can remember. Certainly there was nothing to do compared to Blitzball, cards etc.

- The sound for voices has been compressed so much it sounds like MSN recording.

- Unlike FF6-10 which gave you a good chance of figuring out the best weapons and so forth without a guide, FFXII makes sure you have no chance. laughably, even opening the "wrong treasure chest" will result in ultimate weapons becoming unavailable. That should tell you right there how much the designers were taking the piss out of fan-base gullibility.

- Treasure chests were random, rendering them almost useless. I really can't fathom why ANYONE had this brainless idea.

- Again you needed a guide to get the best stuff and know what to mix and you had no chance of knowing without one. Also, it was another massive grind.

The whole game was a disaster, and the fact it got such high reviews is baffling.

A perfect summary of how I feel about this game.

Yeah I will also add to that about the plot. When I debated this game with others I too was abused and called names, but I quickly learned that it is because they had no argument.

Whenever I see the word "deep" I immediately think "Is this word thrown in there to try and make that be a fact" and more often than not, "Deep" is used when

- It really isn't deep

- Contrived mess is mistaken for deep.

- Person wants it to be deep

- Person buys into pseudo nonsense, in this case, FFXII is pseudo political garbage. This game is NOT political. It is just trying to be. I can't remember anything decent about it to be frank, there is nothing about this game's story that sticks with you political or otherwise and makes you THINK for a second.

I have asked a number of people who loved the story, about the plot. I generally never receive a reply. If I do it is one of 2 responses:

- It is so deeeeeep, there is a political force taking over and they must stop it. Politics = deeeeep

- You must join the dots up, use your imagination.

The second one is the one I laugh at most, because it's a sad excuse. If a story needs you to "join up the dots" then it hasn't done its job properly and it is a concession on the part of the defender that there is some major holes or gaps in the plot.

So yeah, the story was crap, so was the character development.

The music was ok, I liked a few of them but overall it was as generic as the game. I am seriously strong in my belief that had this game not been Final Fantasy and if it had standard graphics, it would have come out with 5 or 6 out of 10 in the vast majority of reviews, and the massive amount of defence it gets would evaporate.

There are too many games that get away with their crapness on the back of fanbase or graphics.

That will do :)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- No decent story

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Story is a matter of taste and preference. If you didn't enjoy it, fair play, but pleanty of people do. If you want "Got to run save the world from giant monster" go play FFX, this game has a more realistic tone (for the most part)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Character development non-existent, most characters joined the cause "because" and had absolutely no back story or motivation for being there. The total amount of dialogue in this game must be far less than any other FF game after V.

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Vaan has a score to settle because his brother was killed by the empire, Penelo's parents were also killed by the empire though she's mostly there to watch over vaan, Ashe is trying to reclaim her kingdom (pretty obvious that one), Basch swore to protect ashe and Balthier believes he must right his fathers wrongs. Leaving just Fran without a reason for being there so that statement is somewhat flawed i'm afraid.

As for character develpment being non existent, it's certainly not as heavy as in previous FF's but but i myself find it refreshing. Visiting Salika wood and learning frans past was a personal highlight, many things come to light concerning Balthier and his involvement with the empire and Basch's later scenes with his brother are very nice.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Graphics very good but boring

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Go into the zertinan caverns and peer over the edges.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Gambit system is a dumbed down battle system which takes control away from the player. I survived the whole game with 2 gambits. Attack and Cure.

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I call bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:.

You didn't have to raise a KO'd party member once? Or cure status ailments? Or cast stat buffs? You didn't cast any magic? You must of had some pretty frustrating battles. Even if you were massively over levelled i still find this hard to believe.

They do not take control away from the player. You do that. Gambits can be switched off. You can control your entire party manually if you wish, or just have gambits on two of your party. A few gambits or a whole list, it's completley up to the player, no-one forces you to give up control of your players

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Summons were pathetic and useless and if I remember right, take all your MP to 0 rendering them a liability. Half the time you ran away hoping they would do 1 move before being finished off.

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Can't argue here, the summons were awful

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- License system allowed no real differences between players and it was impossible to know without a guide which were actually the strongest before you acquired them and trudged half way across the board.

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It's called customization mate. You chose what to give your characters in order to define them in battle. Support chars learn magic, tanks lean towards shields and armour, damage dealers on weapons. The weapons were grouped together so once you pick a weapon for a character, upgrades to that weapon are adjacent, with the strongest weapons/armours against the edges. LP wasn't hard to obtain and you can always open up the area where you expect to find something, then reload so you know where it is.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Limit break moves were tedious, lasted too long and rather pathetic.

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The system was flawed, much like the summons. These at least were pretty

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Sidequests were relegated once again to more battles, this time, clan battles. Mini Games didn't exist as far as I can remember. Certainly there was nothing to do compared to Blitzball, cards etc.

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Mate what are you talking about, the game was filled with sidequests. Aside from Mark hunting (which was implemented a hundred times better than XIII) their were tonnes of things to do. There's the fishing sidequest, the pirate olympics, find the cockatrices, the nabudis medalion hunt and the sky pirates den to name a few, but the game is absolutley filled with things to do.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- The sound for voices has been compressed so much it sounds like MSN recording.

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Didn't have a problem with the voice sound. Though i think the voice actors were the most talented of any FF.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Unlike FF6-10 which gave you a good chance of figuring out the best weapons and so forth without a guide, FFXII makes sure you have no chance. laughably, even opening the "wrong treasure chest" will result in ultimate weapons becoming unavailable. That should tell you right there how much the designers were taking the piss out of fan-base gullibility.

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If i remember, your quite a big fan of IX, am i right? Might i shove Excalibur MKII in your face or did you convenientley forget about it? FFXII is not the first FF to pull a stunt like the zodiac spear so it's quite redundent to even bring it up.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

- Treasure chests were random, rendering them almost useless. I really can't fathom why ANYONE had this brainless idea.

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I'm actually very fond of the random treasure chests. If you're like me and played a perfect game, you spend lots of times revisiting places that would be alot less entertaining if treasure chests didn't respawn with different spoils.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

The whole game was a disaster, and the fact it got such high reviews is baffling.

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Not a disaster, just not to your tastes. I hate almost everything about FFXIII, not because it's a terrible game, but because it's the exact opposite of everything i like in a game. I apreciate and respect your opinions, but to label it a disaster is a little unfair. Try understanding the game from someone elses perspective instead of insulting everyone who enjoys it

was insulting.
Did you find my comments insulting ?

They weren't intended to be.


I've struggled to try to be nice to people who liked the game.
To be understanding of their views.
To be tolerant.

Being called names and being threatened, albeit on other FF forums certainly hasn't been helpful.

I agree with seifer about this game. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.
If you like the game that's fine.I won't call anyone names who liked it or question their intelligence.
I also am baffled by why they like it and their explanations don't in my view, stand up to scrutiny.

But to each his own.:roll2

ahhh Shin Gouken, I am so glad you replied, because as expected you replied in the exact same way everyone else does about this game -with generic nonsense (as in summaries that we knew in the first hour of play and even before) which you have somehow convinced yourself is decent. Let me run through my problems with your replies, especially on the wafer thin plot. And no, that isn't an opinion, it can be plainly demonstrated with how much text there is for main dialogue (far less than VII-X and XIII) and by looking at what happens in the story and how much we actually learn about the characters during the game.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

Story is a matter of taste and preference.

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This is the ultimate cop out excuse that I hear time and time and time and time and time and time and time again. Story is not just a personal opinion. Yes to a degree it certainly is, but when there are real flaws and real gaps and bad pacing and much less actual dialogue and substance (all of these can be demonstrated), to say that "it is only opinion if you don't like that" is just a major cop out for the flaws.

Yes if you liked the story that is an opinion, however, if I can demonstrate that FF7,8,9,10 and 13 have much more going on and much more character devlopment (and they do, this is a FACT), then yes the statement that "The character devlopment was very poor" is completely true when comparing these games.

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If you want "Got to run save the world from giant monster" go play FFX, this game has a more realistic tone (for the most part)

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What was realistic about searching for nethecite (sp?)? What was realistic about fighting a random boss who had nothing at all to do with the main plot (see 7,8,9,10 where you are always coming across main plot battles, Rufus, Palmer, Edea, Seifer to name a few of dozens)? This plot was pseudo Political, it gives great orgasms to people who think they are intellectual if they enjoy it and anyone who doesn't isn't "deep enough". Well sorry, the story was poor, the pacing was a joke, the development was extremely poor and thus I don't think I am being unfair calling it crap overall.

What actually happens in XII? Well, the game manual actually tells you almost everything without you having to play the game. Yes it really does. A wannabe sky pirate called Vaan ends up in a quest to save a place from a take over. That is it. We learn nothing more about Vaan than "I want to be a sky pirate" Please tell me what else we learned about him during the course of the game that we didn't know from the first hour of play?

We have characters in this game that have absolutely no reason to be in your party. Fran and Balthier just tag along and so does Penelo. Penelo being the one who also has less character development than Gogo from VI. Ultimate insult coming with the pathetic narration job she does at the end of the game. Don't make me LAUGH.

Then we come to Ashe. And again we can sum her entire existence and plot up by "Her Kingdom is in disarray and she needs nethecite"

is any of this following a pattern yet? It sure as hell is with me.

Then we have Vayne Solidor...who is supposedly the baddie. He has less lines than an NPC (Hyperbole). And then at the end he suddenly turns into a big bad monster. We have no idea of his aspirations, his wants, his drives. Except of course "I want to take over X kingdom" and ...well that is it...

is this pattern becoming clearer?

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Vaan has a score to settle because his brother was killed by the empire, Penelo's parents were also killed by the empire though she's mostly there to watch over vaan, Ashe is trying to reclaim her kingdom (pretty obvious that one), Basch swore to protect ashe and Balthier believes he must right his fathers wrongs. Leaving just Fran without a reason for being there so that statement is somewhat flawed i'm afraid.

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and we learned all of this from the character summaries. This IS NOT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. It is a brief summary which we learn in the first hour or from the game manual. Just READ BACK WHAT YOU HAVE JUST WROTE. IT IS ALL THERE IS TO SAY ABOUT THEM. WHAT MORE DO YOU LEARN? PLEASE TELL US ALL!

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As for character development being non existent, it's certainly not as heavy as in previous FF's but but i myself find it refreshing.

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You find lack of plot and development refreshing for a story.....can you run me through this immense logic?

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Visiting Salika wood and learning frans past was a personal highlight, many things come to light concerning Balthier and his involvement with the empire and Basch's later scenes with his brother are very nice.

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Fran was the 1 exception to the rule, it is the only character we learn ANYTHING about from their past (as in character development and not summaries). And as for the brother story....I am sorry but "evil twin" is a laughable plot device used time and again in bad fiction.

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Go into the zertinan caverns and peer over the edges.

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Exceptions do not alter rules.

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I call bull

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I call truth.

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You didn't have to raise a KO'd party member once? Or cure status ailments? Or cast stat buffs? You didn't cast any magic? You must of had some pretty frustrating battles. Even if you were massively over levelled i still find this hard to believe.

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The main bulk of the game I used cure and Attack. And at the end I learned about a monster which you could just leave your game machine on all night. Do you think I was stupid enough to level up by watching my character hack and slash needlessly for 20 hours? I would rather pull my teeth out with pliers! I think that is the biggest joke about this game, you could actually go bed overnight and let the machine fight for you without any interaction. That is how we best sum up this ridiculous little battle system.

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They do not take control away from the player. You do that. Gambits can be switched off.

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Which leaves you at a severe disadvantage and makes the game even more painful. So no it isn't an option. It is forcing you.

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It's called customization mate.

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No, it is called bad/lazy planning and design and a step backwards.

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These at least were pretty

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Graphics mean nothing when we are talking about game-play mechanics.

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Didn't have a problem with the voice sound. Though i think the voice actors were the most talented of any FF.

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I said the sound quality, not the acting.

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If i remember, your quite a big fan of IX, am i right?

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No, it ranks as my 4th fave but it is a damn site better than this.

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Might i shove Excalibur MKII in your face or did you convenientley forget about it? FFXII is not the first FF to pull a stunt like the zodiac spear so it's quite redundent to even bring it up.

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No, I didn't forget about it, that was a 1 off, and you can't use exceptions to break the rule. EX.II was a quest to complete the game in 12 hours, it was nothing at all to do with the main quest of ultimate weapons. And in XII as I said, all you do is find it by grinding. There is nothing clever to it like having to beat the game in 12 hours. That was a challenge, this was an excuse to make you buy a guide so you knew which chests not to open. That isn't the same thing.

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I'm actually very fond of the random treasure chests. If you're like me and played a perfect game, you spend lots of times revisiting places that would be alot less entertaining if treasure chests didn't respawn with different spoils.

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Which generally gave you a few gil and was an awful idea. Why on earth would it be good to have a few poxy gambits and gil out of chests and nothing of real merit?

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instead of insulting everyone who enjoys it

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I didn't insult anyone, I am afraid. I INSULTED THIS WORTHLESS GAME. It seems you took the attack on the game...personally. A typical flaw. But you can take this post for free ;) and I won't be back to reply again as I feel my 3 posts stand up to scrutiny more than the usual and useless "he wants to be a sky pirate and has a bad brother" kind of responses....

Plus, we all know where this ends.... and don't take seriously my tone. It is always forceful to get the point across. I don't mean anyone any harm with it, but it isn't my nature to shy away from aggressive debate where it is needed, and especially when I feel points about something are being washed over. At the end of the day this is a game and so some perspective is always needed.

FFXII rocks! :D

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

This is the ultimate cop out excuse that I hear time and time and time and time and time and time and time again. Story is not just a personal opinion. Yes to a degree it certainly is, but when there are real flaws and real gaps and bad pacing and much less actual dialogue and substance (all of these can be demonstrated), to say that "it is only opinion if you don't like that" is just a major cop out for the flaws.

Yes if you liked the story that is an opinion, however, if I can demonstrate that FF7,8,9,10 and 13 have much more going on and much more character devlopment (and they do, this is a FACT), then yes the statement that "The character devlopment was very poor" is completely true when comparing these games.

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It isn't a flaw. FFXII was designed to focus less on the characters and story and more on exploration and gameplay. Basically the opposite to FFXIII. The characters in XII are the least developed in the series, but that is only a problem if you thrive on character development, which means that this IS a personal preference and matter of opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

What was realistic about searching for nethecite (sp?)? What was realistic about fighting a random boss who had nothing at all to do with the main plot (see 7,8,9,10 where you are always coming across main plot battles, Rufus, Palmer, Edea, Seifer to name a few of dozens)? This plot was pseudo Political, it gives great orgasms to people who think they are intellectual if they enjoy it and anyone who doesn't isn't "deep enough". Well sorry, the story was poor, the pacing was a joke, the development was extremely poor and thus I don't think I am being unfair calling it crap overall.

What actually happens in XII? Well, the game manual actually tells you almost everything without you having to play the game. Yes it really does. A wannabe sky pirate called Vaan ends up in a quest to save a place from a take over. That is it. We learn nothing more about Vaan than "I want to be a sky pirate" Please tell me what else we learned about him during the course of the game that we didn't know from the first hour of play?

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*Sigh* Did you play the game? The empire are manufacturing a weapon that can destroy their enemy in a single blow. They spend alot of time trying to manouver Rozzaria and the Insurgance into combining their might and launching a full frontal assault, which would allow the empire to destroy them both. Knowing this, your party are desperatley trying to avert war.

Vaans character is irrelevent, he is the eyes that we see events unfolding from, why should we be bombarded with useless information about him? If you like character development, you're playing the wrong game.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

We have characters in this game that have absolutely no reason to be in your party. Fran and Balthier just tag along and so does Penelo. Penelo being the one who also has less character development than Gogo from VI. Ultimate insult coming with the pathetic narration job she does at the end of the game. Don't make me LAUGH.

Then we come to Ashe. And again we can sum her entire existence and plot up by "Her Kingdom is in disarray and she needs nethecite"

is any of this following a pattern yet? It sure as hell is with me.

Then we have Vayne Solidor...who is supposedly the baddie. He has less lines than an NPC (Hyperbole). And then at the end he suddenly turns into a big bad monster. We have no idea of his aspirations, his wants, his drives. Except of course "I want to take over X kingdom" and ...well that is it...

is this pattern becoming clearer?

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Vayne is power hungry. How are his motives any less defined than Kefka's or Sephirophs. I wouldn't compare Vayne to either Kefka or Sephiroph of course because he does indeed fall short of those more memorable characters, but why are you so obcessed with FFXII mimicing every other FF.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

and we learned all of this from the character summaries. This IS NOT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. It is a brief summary which we learn in the first hour or from the game manual. Just READ BACK WHAT YOU HAVE JUST WROTE. IT IS ALL THERE IS TO SAY ABOUT THEM. WHAT MORE DO YOU LEARN? PLEASE TELL US ALL!

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Actually the points i made that got this response were aimed at why party members are in your party, NOT as an arguement to back up character depth.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

You find lack of plot and development refreshing for a story.....can you run me through this immense logic?

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Sure, i'll help you understand my logic. In many previous FF's to date, character development is overpowering and suffocating. So much so that the plot is hindered to support it. In FFXIII nothing happens in chapters 2-8, it's all character focused. In FFVII, nothing happens regarding plot on disc two, again, it's all character focus. FFV and FFXII are my favorite FF's because they don't waste so much of my time on unessesary rubbish i could care less about. This is another example of each to their own, not a flaw in the game, because as i said before, the game was intended to be this way with it's focus on the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Exceptions do not alter rules.

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This was the most obvious example. Go visit the Nabreus deadlands or the Necrohol of Nabudis.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

The main bulk of the game I used cure and Attack. And at the end I learned about a monster which you could just leave your game machine on all night. Do you think I was stupid enough to level up by watching my character hack and slash needlessly for 20 hours? I would rather pull my teeth out with pliers! I think that is the biggest joke about this game, you could actually go bed overnight and let the machine fight for you without any interaction. That is how we best sum up this ridiculous little battle system.

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The prepartions and knowledge you need to set up against this flaw would have required you to source this information online. If you went through the trouble of locating and spawning said enemy and arranging the complex gambit set up needed then it is a clear example of you abusing the system.

The battle system (again) is for the player to decide how he/she wishes to use it. Organize it to suit your playing style. It gives you the choice to do so which makes any arguement regarding it redundent.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Which leaves you at a severe disadvantage and makes the game even more painful. So no it isn't an option. It is forcing you.

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I thought you only used attack and cure? You can't be arsed playing through the entire game just using attack and cure, you had to make the game do it for you? How lazy are you?

Again, switch off gambits, problem solved. Having trouble keeping up with the pace of battle, lower the battle speed. Try arranging a few less gambits, or perhaps try utalizing the system a little more. The system isn't flawed. People abuse it and complain after doing so.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No, it is called bad/lazy planning and design and a step backwards.

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FFXII allows you to designate "Jobs" or "Classes" to your characters. Again, you want it done for you which is another case of you being too lazy to play the game.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I said the sound quality, not the acting.

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So we're at least agreed the voice acting was good.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No, I didn't forget about it, that was a 1 off, and you can't use exceptions to break the rule. EX.II was a quest to complete the game in 12 hours, it was nothing at all to do with the main quest of ultimate weapons. And in XII as I said, all you do is find it by grinding. There is nothing clever to it like having to beat the game in 12 hours. That was a challenge, this was an excuse to make you buy a guide so you knew which chests not to open. That isn't the same thing.

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It isn't a one off. There is a thread somewhere where someone was nice enough to detail pretty much the same flaw in most every FF.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Which generally gave you a few gil and was an awful idea. Why on earth would it be good to have a few poxy gambits and gil out of chests and nothing of real merit?

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This is another case of you being lazy and wanting everything handed to you.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I didn't insult anyone, I am afraid. I INSULTED THIS WORTHLESS GAME. It seems you took the attack on the game...personally. A typical flaw. But you can take this post for free ;) and I won't be back to reply again as I feel my 3 posts stand up to scrutiny more than the usual and useless "he wants to be a sky pirate and has a bad brother" kind of responses....

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I didn't take it personally, but your attitude is very unfair. Your arguements are mostly a matter of opinion and are not genuine faults, simply things you personally dislike. I apreciate you have no love for the game, but lots of us do and we'll happily argue it's case.

I know I said I wouldn't be back, but I am waiting for you to tell us all what else we learn about the characters during the game ;) Every time I ask that question about this game it is ignored. So far your answers to what this story was about and what the characters are about have all come from brief summaries that we learn from the game manual or the first hour of play. I am waiting.......

And yes I did learn from someone about that monster which allows you to level up (actually it is another thing that is impossible to find without a guide) As I said, I did this because the alternative was actually watching my characters hack and slash on their own rather than just go bed and let them do it. I couldn't wait to finish this crap :P

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I know I said I wouldn't be back, but I am waiting for you to tell us all what else we learn about the characters during the game ;) Every time I ask that question about this game it is ignored. So far your answers to what this story was about and what the characters are about have all come from brief summaries that we learn from the game manual or the first hour of play. I am waiting.......

And yes I did learn from someone about that monster which allows you to level up (actually it is another thing that is impossible to find without a guide) As I said, I did this because the alternative was actually watching my characters hack and slash on their own rather than just go bed and let them do it. I couldn't wait to finish this crap :P

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It wasn't ignored, if you read back, i actually agreed with you =)

But i went on to argue that less focus on character depth isn't a fault as the game was designed that way, and many of us apreciate it.

Why is character depth so important to you? Should all FF's be defined by the amount of depth their characters had?

There were more intersting places you could go to level your character, places that actually would have provided you with more of a challenge and tested you a little more.

A story is defined by what happens in it and by character development, Without these things you cannot hope to get attached to any of the characters or the story or care about anything that goes on.

And this, is precisely the criticism XII often gets. No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all. They could be Tom, Dick and Harry. No one can feel the threat of this empire, although that threat is eluded to. No one can feel anything and thus the story is like someone giving you a lump of clay and telling you a great work of art lies somewhere in it if you can arrange it properly.

Without attachment to characters, you will not care about them, and there is no emotion. Without these things you cannot sympathise with their plight/struggle or adventure, and without that, the story is like a cheap piece of cardboard.

For a human, emotional attachment to characters via character depth and development is paramount to a story. The story is more than just a set of rules or quotes or summaries. It is the emotion. If Aerith hadn't have had any character development in VII, when it came to her death, the vast majority of people would not have had any feeling one way or another.

The fact that it is cited often as a pivotal moment in gaming history is precisely because it succeeded in evoking emotion and it could only do that because the vast majority of people cared.

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Tetsuya Nomura "Death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic", and "When I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character."

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Substitute Aerith for Ashe, and no one would have given 2 hoots. That isn't because the plot point would have failed, but because the actual development had failed.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

Sure, i'll help you understand my logic. In many previous FF's to date, character development is overpowering and suffocating. So much so that the plot is hindered to support it. In FFXIII nothing happens in chapters 2-8, it's all character focused. In FFVII, nothing happens regarding plot on disc two, again, it's all character focus. FFV and FFXII are my favorite FF's because they don't waste so much of my time on unessesary rubbish i could care less about. This is another example of each to their own, not a flaw in the game, because as i said before, the game was intended to be this way with it's focus on the gameplay.

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This would be a good criticism, if something had actually happened in FFXII. And sure, stuff happens at the beginning, but for a good third of the game the main party is trudging through the back end of nowhere achieving nothing.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

A story is defined by what happens in it and by character development, Without these things you cannot hope to get attached to any of the characters or the story or care about anything that goes on.

And this, is precisely the criticism XII often gets. No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all. They could be Tom, Dick and Harry. No one can feel the threat of this empire, although that threat is eluded to. No one can feel anything and thus the story is like someone giving you a lump of clay and telling you a great work of art lies somewhere in it if you can arrange it properly.

Without attachment to characters, you will not care about them, and there is no emotion. Without these things you cannot sympathise with their plight/struggle or adventure, and without that, the story is like a cheap piece of cardboard.

For a human, emotional attachment to characters via character depth and development is paramount to a story. The story is more than just a set of rules or quotes or summaries. It is the emotion. If Aerith hadn't have had any character development in VII, when it came to her death, the vast majority of people would not have had any feeling one way or another.

The fact that it is cited often as a pivotal moment in gaming history is precisely because it succeeded in evoking emotion and it could only do that because the vast majority of people cared.

Quote:

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Tetsuya Nomura "Death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic", and "When I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character."

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Substitute Aerith for Ashe, and no one would have given 2 hoots. That isn't because the plot point would have failed, but because the actual development had failed.

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This whole "evoking human emotions!" thing seems to be a pretty cheap approach. You can easilly achieve the stuff you talk about, but it's a bit harder to achieve something good without having to desperately try to "reach" the people. It's like comparing bestsellers to the really meaningful books (I'm not saying FFXII is as ambitious as such stuff, but is closer to it than other FFs) - anyone can identify with the characters of the former, but it takes more thought to get the bigger picture in the latter. Same with music - catchy music is fine for the masses, but artistic music can be considered "crap" by most, though it actually carries the truest beauty.

Just so that my words don't prove empty, I'll back it up with some in-game evidence. Here's your lack of character development, then: Ashe. She is shaken by the death of her husband, loss of kingdom, and all that stuff. She then decides to take revenge (how original). The images of Rasler she sees on her journey make her want to achieve her goal more. But at the same time, she encounters Larsa, and sees that the empire is not as evil as she thought it to be. Meeting the Occuria makes her question herself, as she turns out to have been just their pawn in shaping their own image of Ivalice's history. She decides to go against the self-proclaimed gods by rejecting revenge on the empire, instead trying to achieve the independence of her kingdom by peace. Her decision was a hard and mature one, because had she followed her original path, driven by human feelings of loss and anger, she would have caused the land to be engulfed in a yet greater, perhaps neverending conflict.

I consider this to be good character development, though it's not in-your-face or melodramatic, as stuff tends to be nowadays. Though I'm not saying it's a bad thing - it appeals to the masses, myself included, and no one's wrong for liking that. No one is wrong for liking FFXII's story either, though you consider it to be bad (though it isn't, it's just different from the others, and thus a lot of people dislike it :) ).

>>> I liked it, like everyone said the story/plot was lacking but everything else was great..:luca:

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

A story is defined by what happens in it and by character development, Without these things you cannot hope to get attached to any of the characters or the story or care about anything that goes on.

And this, is precisely the criticism XII often gets. No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all. They could be Tom, Dick and Harry. No one can feel the threat of this empire, although that threat is eluded to. No one can feel anything and thus the story is like someone giving you a lump of clay and telling you a great work of art lies somewhere in it if you can arrange it properly.

Without attachment to characters, you will not care about them, and there is no emotion. Without these things you cannot sympathise with their plight/struggle or adventure, and without that, the story is like a cheap piece of cardboard.

For a human, emotional attachment to characters via character depth and development is paramount to a story. The story is more than just a set of rules or quotes or summaries. It is the emotion. If Aerith hadn't have had any character development in VII, when it came to her death, the vast majority of people would not have had any feeling one way or another.

The fact that it is cited often as a pivotal moment in gaming history is precisely because it succeeded in evoking emotion and it could only do that because the vast majority of people cared.

Quote:

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Tetsuya Nomura "Death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic", and "When I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character."

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Substitute Aerith for Ashe, and no one would have given 2 hoots. That isn't because the plot point would have failed, but because the actual development had failed.

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This whole "evoking human emotions!" thing seems to be a pretty cheap approach. You can easilly achieve the stuff you talk about, but it's a bit harder to achieve something good without having to desperately try to "reach" the people. It's like comparing bestsellers to the really meaningful books (I'm not saying FFXII is as ambitious as such stuff, but is closer to it than other FFs) - anyone can identify with the characters of the former, but it takes more thought to get the bigger picture in the latter. Same with music - catchy music is fine for the masses, but artistic music can be considered "crap" by most, though it actually carries the truest beauty.

Just so that my words don't prove empty, I'll back it up with some in-game evidence. Here's your lack of character development, then: Ashe. She is shaken by the death of her husband, loss of kingdom, and all that stuff. She then decides to take revenge (how original). The images of Rasler she sees on her journey make her want to achieve her goal more. But at the same time, she encounters Larsa, and sees that the empire is not as evil as she thought it to be. Meeting the Occuria makes her question herself, as she turns out to have been just their pawn in shaping their own image of Ivalice's history. She decides to go against the self-proclaimed gods by rejecting revenge on the empire, instead trying to achieve the independence of her kingdom by peace. Her decision was a hard and mature one, because had she followed her original path, driven by human feelings of loss and anger, she would have caused the land to be engulfed in a yet greater, perhaps neverending conflict.

I consider this to be good character development, though it's not in-your-face or melodramatic, as stuff tends to be nowadays. Though I'm not saying it's a bad thing - it appeals to the masses, myself included, and no one's wrong for liking that. No one is wrong for liking FFXII's story either, though you consider it to be bad (though it isn't, it's just different from the others, and thus a lot of people dislike it :) ).

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Very nicely said.

Yes, FFXII has less character develpment than most all other FF's. But it most certainly is not absent, it's simply more subtle.

When FF tries to invoke emotion in the player, i myself can see that it's exactly what they are trying to do. Aerith for example was a clear plot device, designed to reach out to the player and fuel their hatred for sephiroth.

But people eat that :bou::bou::bou::bou: up.

So again i'll say,having it toned down and taking a subtle approach is not a flaw in FFXII. I understand why people would find it harder being emotionally attached to the characters, and such can understand their general view on the game. But not everyone is the same. I and many others apreciate what FFXII was trying to accomplish

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Originally Posted by Ragebrain The Enraged

FFXII rocks! :D

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:p

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

This whole "evoking human emotions!" thing seems to be a pretty cheap approach. You can easilly achieve the stuff you talk about, but it's a bit harder to achieve something good without having to desperately try to "reach" the people. It's like comparing bestsellers to the really meaningful books (I'm not saying FFXII is as ambitious as such stuff, but is closer to it than other FFs) - anyone can identify with the characters of the former, but it takes more thought to get the bigger picture in the latter. Same with music - catchy music is fine for the masses, but artistic music can be considered "crap" by most, though it actually carries the truest beauty.

Just so that my words don't prove empty, I'll back it up with some in-game evidence. Here's your lack of character development, then: Ashe. She is shaken by the death of her husband, loss of kingdom, and all that stuff. She then decides to take revenge (how original). The images of Rasler she sees on her journey make her want to achieve her goal more. But at the same time, she encounters Larsa, and sees that the empire is not as evil as she thought it to be. Meeting the Occuria makes her question herself, as she turns out to have been just their pawn in shaping their own image of Ivalice's history. She decides to go against the self-proclaimed gods by rejecting revenge on the empire, instead trying to achieve the independence of her kingdom by peace. Her decision was a hard and mature one, because had she followed her original path, driven by human feelings of loss and anger, she would have caused the land to be engulfed in a yet greater, perhaps neverending conflict.

I consider this to be good character development, though it's not in-your-face or melodramatic, as stuff tends to be nowadays. Though I'm not saying it's a bad thing - it appeals to the masses, myself included, and no one's wrong for liking that. No one is wrong for liking FFXII's story either, though you consider it to be bad (though it isn't, it's just different from the others, and thus a lot of people dislike it :) ).

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I really like what you've said here. I am not sure where people get this idea that in order for a story to be good, it must reveal as much as possible about the characters so as to evoke an emotional reaction, and that this emotional involvement means the characters (and work itself) have depth.

I have to disagree with you, seiferalmasy2, that a story is defined by "what happens in it and by character development". First of all I have to say the term "character development" really bothers me. It's thrown about so much to describe what the gamer is told about the characters and but it sounds like it should be used more in the developmental stage of the game itself. Secondly, I think a story is defined more by character action and the narrative (how the story is represented) than just the events and exposition of character. This is how FFXII is so different to all the other FFs.

I agree with you that without exposition we cannot care about the characters or story. What I disagree with is your assumption that a narrative should seek to emotionally invest in the characters and that the exposition has to achieve this in order for a story to have gravity.

It's easy for anybody to write a story that jerks tears and pulls heartstrings. I'm sure many girls have cried to sleep at night over Edward and Bella from Twilight. Their emotions have reacted to the lengthy and highly detailed exposition of a romance. But this emphasis on emotions doesn't make the story good in any way. It doesn't even mean the characters are relatable or you can get attached to them. It just means your emotions were played.

FFXII doesn't rely on this kind of close character detail as a means to provide exposition to the story. It doesn't need to and its narrative (representation) would suffer if it did. The fact the narrative does not rely on getting inside the character's heads as much as other Final Fantasy games does not mean one cannot care about what happens. A lack of "emotional attachment" does not even mean a lack of character exposition, in fact it means nothing at all except your expectations weren't met.

What did you want as character development in FFXII? Please give me an example because I am genuinely curious. What scenes would you have liked, events etc.

...ugh I can't be bothered writing anymore which is excellent, because this is long winded and no one's going to even read it. Also, please don't interpret what I'm saying as "OH MY GOSH FFXII IS THE BEST THE REST ALL SUCKS". I don't mean that, I actually really enjoyed FFX and VII, but I just don't like the idea that stories have to have fully elaborated upon characters in order to have any meaning.

I read your post, Persephone Stephanie and I wholeheartedly agree with what you said there, which you could as well figure out by my earlier post :D

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Ragebrain The Enraged

FFXII rocks! :D

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:p

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Now this just shows that in the face of a coherent and solid argument against yours you simply back out. I showed you just what you asked us to, and you just went and chose an opinion that fit your description. There are a lot of FFXII fans who like the game for solid and valid reasons and you, o master of storytelling, do your best to ignore it. That, my friend, is hypocrisy.

Brilliant game.

Flawed of course, but I think everyone realises that. It also had a ridiculous amount of potential which was not fulfilled.

I didn't mean that ONLY character devlopment matters to story, but if you don't have much of it, then you won't care for the characters, you won't care what is going on.

That is exactly the problem with XII. No one cares about this kingdom, no one can empathise with the characters or their struggles. It is a cardboard story with plasticine characters.

Story needs more than just its base., It needs you to care about it, and you can't care about it if your main characters say around 10 words every hour, and the main villain has less development than gogo then suddenly turns into a RarrarAAWWRRrr monster!

If you are arguing that stories can be just as good without the character's being developed, then I have to disagree completely. A good story depends heavily on it, that is a fact.

@ seifer

I thought Vayne was a great villian, i expected him to be another kuja, but he wasn't crazy like kelfa, he wasn't as confusing as dynstly, he was smart, he wasn't rash, he picked his time well, he was actually in some parts nice? It might just be me but i like those traits for villians. It gives a me a sense of them being real.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I didn't mean that ONLY character devlopment matters to story, but if you don't have much of it, then you won't care for the characters, you won't care what is going on.

That is exactly the problem with XII. No one cares about this kingdom, no one can empathise with the characters or their struggles. It is a cardboard story with plasticine characters.

Story needs more than just its base., It needs you to care about it, and you can't care about it if your main characters say around 10 words every hour, and the main villain has less development than gogo then suddenly turns into a RarrarAAWWRRrr monster!

If you are arguing that stories can be just as good without the character's being developed, then I have to disagree completely. A good story depends heavily on it, that is a fact.

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Ico

I think this is all I really need to say, this game had easily one of the most touching stories with great characters in a game and there is minimal dialogue and one of the characters even speaks in a language you never understand. They both have little backstory and little dialogue together but the ending is an emotional rollercoaster for the player. So yes, I would ague you don't need character development to make a good story, it really depends on what kind of story you are doing.

I feel the whole cast (XII) actually has great development that doesn't need to rely on the weakness of out place cheesy expositions like other JRPGs. Vaan has one of the most realistic "coming of age" stories that it just makes you realize how silly every other version has been up until him, Balthier deals with his issues with his father, Fran with her sisters, Basch and his brother, and Penelo helps to bridge the gap between Dalmasca and Archades. Ashe herself throws an entire RPG cliche on its head as she struggles to choose between her desire for revenge and her duty to her people.

Vayne himself is easily more complex than most previous villains in the series. The fact people debate whether he should be counted as a true villain when his goals were noble and the way he treated his brother show that he's not some mindless drone out for godhood like every other RPG villain of the last 20 years. Ivalice itself is a massive world that feels more alive and has more content in its little region than most of the FFs combined. I feel its very easy to find something appealing about its world as long as one bothers to explore and look into it.

On topic: Yes, I did really like FFXII cause it was the breath of fresh air the series really needed, it did away with the over the top anime cliche nonsense and actually tried to bring in (though lobotomized) a mature political story and I feel Lady Ashe' personal conflict is easily one of the most human and most inspiring story in the series history outside of perhaps FFTactics.

I like the Gambit system, I enjoyed customizing my party with an equipment system from FFTactics that puts more weight on strategy than other titles, I loved Mark Hunts that actually challenged me to learn new ways to use the combat system, I loved the fact I could actually explore seeing as how the two single player console entries this game is sandwiched between are both on rails. I like talking to NPC's and stumbling upon unexpected (and often humorous) sidequests, I liked fishing (maybe not as much as BoF but that one is practically a fishing sim), and I love the fact that it doesn't have a real fairy tale ending. and I liked the fact I could summon the smurfing Lucavi from Tactics and that they weren't as blatantly broken as the Aeons.

It would be faster if I just mentioned what I didn't like about the game cause that list is surprisingly short and everyone knows I'm nitpicky as hell when it comes to RPGs. I seriously found nothing but love for this game. Could it be better? Hell yeah, but what game couldn't? There is no perfect game so I almost feel this question is rhetorical at best.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Ico

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Oh! That's such an excellent example of how a game doesn't need "character development" in order to invoke affection for the characters. Shadow of the Colossus, too - I was wrecked at the end of that.

I think your argument seiferalmasy2 is basically made moot by the fact there are people who care about what happens in Ivalice. I did, Wolf Kanno, some other people did... we just found ways to appreciate the characters and story without the need for heavy character exposition. I think you need to define what you mean by character development more, because as I said before it really doesn't mean anything. Your statement that a good story depends heavily on these things is false. There are many ways to tell a good story without heavy exposition. See Ico and SotC for that.

I find it curious that so many of you seem to have seen something that isn't actually there. You can't put dialogue where it wasn't. If you add up the actual dialogue from XII which is part of the main characters it must be an order of 4X less than VII (actually probably an order of 10X or even more) or miles less than any other too.

The biggest criticism XII gets is that its Character development is lack lustre, and even some fans of the game here concede that.

I am not sure where people are seeing these characters as well developed or great when we could write what we know of them on a toilet roll. Solidor is prob the most underdeveloped baddie since Ultimecia but even she had more dialogue and purpose, and we had other antagonists in VIII like Seifer and Edea (through Ultimecia) and Adel.

With XII we have a kingdom and some guy and that is it. I am not sure where some of you are finding greatness in this?

The bottom line is, and I am afraid one you cannot escape, this game had far less main dialogue than any other FF from VII onwards, and the pacing was so bad it was embarrassing. There are no excuses for it. There are no ways around it. There is no defending it and "join up the dots" is lame ass response. I would dearly love to know how people see things that aren't there, that way I would lead a happier life, but alas, realism is my nature and seeing things that aren't there comes under delusion.

Those are my final words on this, so chill :P

I will leave you with this I found:

Final Fantasy XII Review for PlayStation 2: Pseudo- political, yet lacking depth - GameFAQs

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To write a political storyline, one needs convincing characters to bring it down to a human level. Take for instance, Tolstoy's masterpiece War and Peace which utilizes figures such as Pierre Bezuhkov to bring the 1812 French campaign to the reader's personal level. FFXII unfortunately, masquerades behind a veneer of political intellectualism, using the fact the real concern is the larger struggle between Rozarria and Archadia as a crutch for lacking convincing characters. From the virtual non-entity of Penelo to the stereotypical Ashe, the characters seem wooden and sterile. The lack of a traditional FF love story really doesn't do this any favours and most of the time, you're thinking that whether the Empire wins or not is of no consequence. From the awkward silence of Vaan and Ashe having a discussion outside a camp which is screaming "love plot" to Vayne's machinations, there are glimpses of something that could have been brilliant, but yet somehow failed.

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Final Fantasy XII Review for PlayStation 2: Plenty of style, but no real substance - GameFAQs

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Here's the game's real killer. An RPG's main hook is its story -- if you don't care about what's going on, there isn't much reason to play. The story starts off with an impressive bang (the first 10 hours of the game are highly entertaining because of this), but soon after all of the main characters are in your party, the fun stops. Most characters have poor reasons for being on their adventure. At least half of the party has no real reason to be there at all. Ashe, the center of the story that keeps it moving, isn't a likable character at all, leaving the player spending 90% of the story trying to help her get her poorly-planned revenge to "save" the country that was taken from her.

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

Terrible dialogue further hinders the plot. Every line of story in the game has more frill than content. While such writing does fit the "fantasy" theme, it's often very difficult to understand what the characters are talking about. Though the characters' long-winded speeches sound quite pretty, their overall lack of content and coherency makes them very boring.

There's just nothing in the story to make the player want to smile. NPCs have nothing interesting to say, the plot is terrible, and the main characters (excluding Balthier, whose witty lines are quite entertaining) are dull and unresponsive. You'd think if a giant boss monster ambushed you in the middle of a sewer you'd have something to say, right? Unfortunately, though, in Final Fantasy XII, the characters spend almost the entire game wandering around like silent unresponsive zombies, making no effort to interact with their environments. Yawn.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

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I'm gonna have to agree on this point. I remember about half-way through the game coming to the realisation that I didn't even know why I should want to defeat Vayne. Sure, he was in the way of Ashe getting Dalmasca back, but it was hard to see why that was so important, since it seemed to be in an okay condition. Didn't help that I wanted to slap Ashe round the face half the time. I get the feeling I might be one of the only people in the world who preferred the parts when Vaan is still the main character (basically, until you get captured on the Leviathan).

Then again, this is all just opinion. I personally prefer expansive 'save the world' plots and villains I actually really want to kill.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I find it curious that so many of you seem to have seen something that isn't actually there. You can't put dialogue where it wasn't. If you add up the actual dialogue from XII which is part of the main characters it must be an order of 4X less than VII (actually probably an order of 10X or even more) or miles less than any other too.

The biggest criticism XII gets is that its Character development is lack lustre, and even some fans of the game here concede that.

I am not sure where people are seeing these characters as well developed or great when we could write what we know of them on a toilet roll. Solidor is prob the most underdeveloped baddie since Ultimecia but even she had more dialogue and purpose, and we had other antagonists in VIII like Seifer and Edea (through Ultimecia) and Adel.

With XII we have a kingdom and some guy and that is it. I am not sure where some of you are finding greatness in this?

The bottom line is, and I am afraid one you cannot escape, this game had far less main dialogue than any other FF from VII onwards, and the pacing was so bad it was embarrassing. There are no excuses for it. There are no ways around it. There is no defending it and "join up the dots" is lame ass response. I would dearly love to know how people see things that aren't there, that way I would lead a happier life, but alas, realism is my nature and seeing things that aren't there comes under delusion.

Those are my final words on this, so chill :P

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debating with you is extremeley repetitive and redundent when you continually repeat the same arguement, despite it having been addressed several times before. So seeing as you have no intention to reply, i'm going to just get right down to the main points.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

That is exactly the problem with XII. No one cares about this kingdom, no one can empathise with the characters or their struggles. It is a cardboard story with plasticine characters.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all.

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Unfortunatley there is nothing to back this up. Several people posting here, myself included, and on other forums alike seem to disagree. Why do you have so much trouble believing that the story and character structure used in this game is actually liked by people. Many people may share your opinion on this, but it is by no means the majority. Accept that this is your opinion and not fact.

You attack FFXIII for having an abundence of dialogue, and you attack FFXII for it's lack of dialogue. This only tells me that you are impossibley difficult to please. SE are'nt going to make a game that falls into the exact amount of dialogue that suits you personally. There is nothing wrong with either approach.

Fire away with any and all the complaints you have with this game, because so far, all i hear are opinions, which are fine. But you've bought very little in terms of actual flaws into this debate. Arguing over who's opinion is right is completley pointless

just saying that to counter what seems to me to be exaggeration on the part of shin..rotfl...:tongue:
I don't agree that seifer arguments have been addressed either rotfl...
I see his arguments having merit..I see the counterarguments as being flawed and without substance...
Nothing personal against those who loved or liked FFXII.
I want to emphasize that.

I won't stoop to what some of the FFXII fans have fallen into..as I have said previously..some of them were abusive towards me and others who aren't fans of the game..on other forums.:mad2:

I have always been preplexed:confused: by the favorable opinions about the game.
Just as seifer has an unfavorable opinion about the game shin has a favorable one.
Just because shin for example likes it doesn't validate his views about it..or the views of anyone else who likes it.

shrugs.

It's all a matter of opinion and debating it is pointless..I agree with that assertion because no one who dislikes it is going to convince those who like it of its perceived flaws and no one who likes it is going to convince those of us who believe it is a seriously flawed game that it's touching......I almost doubled over when I read that remark........rotfl....or memorable..or anything like that.

I certainly didn't care what happened to Ivalice in this game..compared to the fact I did care in FFTactics..because in that game I cared about Ramza and the rest of the characters that joined the party.
It's all part of character developement which some posters poo pooed in this thread but is vital , at least for me, in a role playing game.

Arguing about this game, FFXIII, FFVII...the overated thread or any FF is pointless...

I do find it entertaining at times though..and worth a few laughs..rotfl...:p

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

You attack FFXIII for having an abundence of dialogue, and you attack FFXII for it's lack of dialogue. This only tells me that you are impossibley difficult to please.

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You seem to be very confused about the word "balance".... I was very pleased with 7,8,9 and 10 so obviously that statement is bogus (and as I said I won't be addressing XII issues directly here again). Same thing has happened with a lot of my fave series:

Resident Evil (after 3) : Dumbed down graphic fest.
Command and Conquer (after Red Alert 2): convulted graphic fest.
Metal gear Solid (as of 4): Dumbed down graphic fest with bloat.

Is it any wonder I am fed up with where the games industry is going? It now relies on its fanbase and graphics. When I have to play 1997 games to satisfy my brain, there is a problem; when Mario 3 for the NES has much more to do in it than FFXIII there is a problem; when FF6 for the SNES has more story than XII there is a problem....

This discussion has reached such layers of nonsense it's ridiculous. It was meant to share opininions and not to tell other people their opinions are wrong, since the large majority of the arguments on both sides were valid. Alas, this is the fate most discussions on Internet fora must face.

Just so that we all calm down, allow me to summarize the facts and opionions we've gathered about FFXII's story.
FACT: it was badly-paced, had little dialogue, little character exposition, yet character development, backstories &c. were present.
NEGATIVE OPINION: the amount of dialogue and character development impairs emotional attachment. Former FFs concentrated on the characters' inner conflicts. This one is different, in a bad way.
POSITIVE OPINION: though emotions weren't the central point of the plot, this was a more realistic approach and the little character development that was there delivered emotional moments as well. This is different from other FFs, which is good, a breath fresh air of sorts.

BOTTOM LINE: All the arguments used in the doscussion are valid. All had supporting evidence and substance. Now the opinion depends on individual interpretations and expectations. I personally loved the characters and story, because the different approach appealed to me very much and I do not consider it to be poor writing in any way (the pacing, of course, is a completely different matter). But people have the right to share my opinion or have a completely different one, and nobody is wrong, lacking coherence, substance, or anything. Now it all comes down to liking the game. You do not - then do not ignore the reasons why people do, because just because their views about the game are different than yours doesn't mean they're irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by YTDN

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

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I'm gonna have to agree on this point. I remember about half-way through the game coming to the realisation that I didn't even know why I should want to defeat Vayne. Sure, he was in the way of Ashe getting Dalmasca back, but it was hard to see why that was so important, since it seemed to be in an okay condition. Didn't help that I wanted to slap Ashe round the face half the time. I get the feeling I might be one of the only people in the world who preferred the parts when Vaan is still the main character (basically, until you get captured on the Leviathan).

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I thought all of this throughout the game as well. It's sad, because I think Ashe had a lot of potential to be an amazing female lead. I actually like how she's a lot more harsh and succinct with people than any female protagonist in any of the other FF, however this didn't really mean much without character interaction, which there was so very little of. And I never really saw anything wrong with the occupation, and in fact, Vayne never even seemed that evil to me. Not saying that a villain has to be "evil", but there needs to be at least several layers of interpretation, where you could find him justified or unjustified or arguably in the right or what not, and I just didn't care about what he was doing with anything either way.

I can't agree with those who liked the game, however, I guess it's interesting, because I didn't realize there were many FF fans who liked this game before stepping into this forum. And in the end it's a good thing, because how can you want a game in the series to be so abhorred? Especially since it's not a terrible game. I found it unfavorable, but there were good things about it. And if people appreciated things that I failed to appreciate, then good.

the fans there love FFXII..
as I found out a few years back..
rotfl..


It's all opinion.

sure someone who posts here occasionally rubs the people who like the game the wrong way.

I feel his arguments are valid......for the most part.

However.......I don't feel people who like the game are wrong on some sort of intelligence quotient level or somehow lack intelligence or discernment.
We don't want to claim any moral superiority.....I don't at any rate because I've been wrong/made enough mistakes to float the planet Jupiter in my bath tub at home.rotfl.:greenie:

I'm a lot less than perfect so I don't make any claims of having a superior opinion about any rpg game.

I feel FFXII has some serious flaws..that those flaws were not due to Square trying to westernize the game as someone else has claimed but due to Matsuno's breakdown and abrupt and I believe irresponsible departure from Square. Yes I blame Matsuno for it.

But that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Clo

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Originally Posted by YTDN

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

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I'm gonna have to agree on this point. I remember about half-way through the game coming to the realisation that I didn't even know why I should want to defeat Vayne. Sure, he was in the way of Ashe getting Dalmasca back, but it was hard to see why that was so important, since it seemed to be in an okay condition. Didn't help that I wanted to slap Ashe round the face half the time. I get the feeling I might be one of the only people in the world who preferred the parts when Vaan is still the main character (basically, until you get captured on the Leviathan).

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I thought all of this throughout the game as well. It's sad, because I think Ashe had a lot of potential to be an amazing female lead. I actually like how she's a lot more harsh and succinct with people than any female protagonist in any of the other FF, however this didn't really mean much without character interaction, which there was so very little of. And I never really saw anything wrong with the occupation, and in fact, Vayne never even seemed that evil to me. Not saying that a villain has to be "evil", but there needs to be at least several layers of interpretation, where you could find him justified or unjustified or arguably in the right or what not, and I just didn't care about what he was doing with anything either way.

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What I thought would be more interestingn is if there was more exploration of her desire for revenge, and what the other characters thought of it. I mean, knowing one of your close friends harbours secret desires of genocide would colour your opinion of a person. This was explored a bit, with Balthier's little heart-to-heart on the Phon Coast and Fran's constant reminders about her desire for revenge, but what about Vaan's opinion? Basch's? Penelo's? I want to know what everyone's thinking!

I kept thinking that Vayne was going to be the 'decoy' villain, (eg. Rufus, Edea, Brahne(?)) that gets offed two thirds of the way through the story to be replaced by the real, world-destroying villain, which in this case I guess would be the Occuria. Alas, the Occuria turned out to be nothing more than a quaint sideshow, with Vayne doing a complete ideological 180 (what happened to 'I will protect Dalmasca' and wanting Ashe to work with him for peace?) and hulking out on Nethicite.

It didn't help that you only actually meet Vayne face-to-face just before you kill him, even though you spend most of the game 'we must defeat Vayne to save Dalmasca'. It's like you only need to kill him for purely political reasons aka. he's in the way of Ashe getting her throne back. It reminds me of an FFXIII review that said 'you can't hate villains who are only fighting you because you're breaking the law', except here it's 'you can't hate villains you are only fighting 'cause they're in the way of your goals'.

Still, it's all opinions. Maybe I missed something subtle, but I like heroes you can root for and villains you can really, really hate.

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Originally Posted by YTDN

What I thought would be more interestingn is if there was more exploration of her desire for revenge, and what the other characters thought of it. I mean, knowing one of your close friends harbours secret desires of genocide would colour your opinion of a person. This was explored a bit, with Balthier's little heart-to-heart on the Phon Coast and Fran's constant reminders about her desire for revenge, but what about Vaan's opinion? Basch's? Penelo's? I want to know what everyone's thinking!

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You see what Basch had to say about it right after they meet the Occuria; his general opinion was that it wasn't right to obliterate millions for the sake of revenge. We see what Vaan thinks about it at the top of the Pharos when Ashe is thinking about whether she should use the treaty blade to claim the weapon she needed to win the war or to use the sword of kings to destroy the sun cryst and prevent the possibility of such a dangerous weapon being used in the future. As for Penelo i can't remember if she actually spoke out against it, I just assumed she shared the same opinion as the rest.
They could have explored Ashe's desire for revenge a bit more, but I still think it was handle fairly well.

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Originally Posted by YTDN

I kept thinking that Vayne was going to be the 'decoy' villain, (eg. Rufus, Edea, Brahne(?)) that gets offed two thirds of the way through the story to be replaced by the real, world-destroying villain, which in this case I guess would be the Occuria. Alas, the Occuria turned out to be nothing more than a quaint sideshow, with Vayne doing a complete ideological 180 (what happened to 'I will protect Dalmasca' and wanting Ashe to work with him for peace?) and hulking out on Nethicite.

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Vayne never wanted peace with Dalmasca or to help Ashe, all he ever wanted from start to finish was to take complete control over Dalmasca and to force Rozzaria into war in which we was going to defeat and subjugate Rozzaria as well. In short all Vayne wanted to do was seize power for himself. He gave a couple pretty little speeches, but this was done to keep the normal citizens of Dalmasca happy and controllable.

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Originally Posted by YTDN

It didn't help that you only actually meet Vayne face-to-face just before you kill him, even though you spend most of the game 'we must defeat Vayne to save Dalmasca'. It's like you only need to kill him for purely political reasons aka. he's in the way of Ashe getting her throne back. It reminds me of an FFXIII review that said 'you can't hate villains who are only fighting you because you're breaking the law', except here it's 'you can't hate villains you are only fighting 'cause they're in the way of your goals'.

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The main characters are fighting Vayne so that their home can again regain its Independence and freedom. They are also fighting Vayne to prevent him for starting a war and using weapons that would destroy countless lives.

Personally I can see why so many people were less than thrilled about Vayne, despite the fact that he's my favorite villian not only in the series but the whole franchise. Throughout most of the game he's just a normal guy and acts more like a corrupt politician (which he is a politician). Most of the other villains in the series are portrayed as larger than life and have super magical powers that could bring down whole nations; Vayne on the other hand is just a typical political figure plotting and scheming to get ahead; hes very down played throughout most of the game and they don't do much to build him up either like they did with a villain like Sephiroth for VII.

It's not until at the very end when the party finally faces him that he ascends to that larger than life status of the other villains. To be honest in the last three battles with him it is in my opinion the most epic final battle in the series in terms of music, presentation, visuals, and story, and Vayne really steals the show at the end. At least in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by YTDN

Still, it's all opinions. Maybe I missed something subtle, but I like heroes you can root for and villains you can really, really hate.

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If you did miss anything that's understandable, as much as I love this game it's not perfect. They really should have had a story log for this game, very much like they did for Tactics, that way players wouldn't miss so much or so they don't forget.

And if you didn't miss anything and the characters just didn't do it for you, that's fine too; we all have our likes and dislikes.

I guess we can sum some of this up by saying that if you make things subtle enough, they fail to make any sort of impression. Some people appreciated the subtlely of the game, and others just, well, failed to be impressed by any lines of dialogue being thrown at them (in a grander sense -- the dialogue actually was great. Great translation!).

Because as I was reading your response to YTDN, I remember those plotlines and what the characters did, yet I remember the scenes being so vague and there being so little dialogue that even though I was getting an impression of character development and what not, it just wasn't enough to really move me in any way. Maybe it was just the right amount for some.

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Originally Posted by Clo

I guess we can sum some of this up by saying that if you make things subtle enough, they fail to make any sort of impression. Some people appreciated the subtlely of the game, and others just, well, failed to be impressed by any lines of dialogue being thrown at them (in a grander sense -- the dialogue actually was great. Great translation!).

Because as I was reading your response to YTDN, I remember those plotlines and what the characters did, yet I remember the scenes being so vague and there being so little dialogue that even though I was getting an impression of character development and what not, it just wasn't enough to really move me in any way. Maybe it was just the right amount for some.

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Pretty much. I actually really liked the characters, and thought that the premise, though a little cliche, could sprout something wonderful. Personally, I'm the type that gets into a story for the theatrics- that's why I really liked the dialogue and voice acting, and especially villains like Cid and the Judges, because they chewed the scenery every time they were on. The main characters had a good basis that would be awesome if explored, but since the game decided to go for a subtle route I never felt that.

I guess what I'm saying is that subtlety and 'realistic' character development is for reality- if you're going to write a story where all the characters sounded like they swallowed the Complete Works of Shakespeare, then have them ham it up.

You know, I never had a problem seeing the character development in this game or getting the feeling from the characters. Frankly, I feel the characterization and development of the cast was far more refreshing and tasteful than the soap opera stuff the series was heading towards.

Vaan has the greatest "coming of age" story I've seen in the series and maybe even in RPGs. Why? Cause he doesn't actually transform into some heroic figure that saves the day and leads the troops into battle at the end of the day, instead he is still a boy, filled with dreams and naivety but much more mature and level headed than when he started. Watching him grow out of his blind hatred for the empire by meeting Larsa, having his ideals of a black and white reality shattered after meeting Basch and learning the truth about his brother Reks, and even him seeing what hatred does to people as he watches Lady Ashe's journey. He even gets a bit of a brotherly relationship from Balthier who Vaan begins to idealize as a Sky Pirate (and continues to do seeing as how he grew up to be a mini-Balthier in FFTA2) so I feel he had a wealth of character development and went through multiple changes which is rare in this medium.

Penelo's kidnapping and subsequent time with Larsa allowed her not only to see that her views of Archadia were wrong but bridged the gap that would allow Vaan and Ashe to reconsider where their desires for revenge were unfounded. I am most happy with her cause she breaks away from the hyper energetic girl archetype that has plagued the series since FFV with Krile... Instead she is mature and thoughtful but still willing to have fun and smack Vaan around when he's being an idiot (like Eruyt Village). Her romantic relationship with Vaan is cute, especially since its not a major element of the plot or her development. OMG! A female character whose sole role in the plot is not to hook up with the guys and actually has a satisfying existence outside of romance? Who da thunk it. ;)

Balthier hides behind his greed and devil may care attitude but as the party heads towards Archades and even when they try to obtain the Nethicite, he begins to be haunted by his past with his father and the madness the stone had brought to him. Balthier proves to be an eccentric and charming fellow who turns away money and status so he can live the life of an outlaw who was free to do as he pleases. I feel his conversation with Lady Ashe on Phon Coast where he reveals the fact he used to be a Judge and the truth about his father Cid was a touching moment for a guy who up until this point was more of a comic relief character. His interactions with Cid are both amusing and in the case of the Pharos, quite touching. Not to mention the man steals the show in the game's climatic ending when he reveals his badass criminal reputation is all talk (course we figured that out long before but still it was nice seeing him act upon it). Its no wonder he's one of the most popular characters in the game and now even in the series.

Fran, dealing with her sister's and her abandonment of her home. Convincing her younger sister to stay behind while also coming to an understanding with her elder sister. Fran just shows more of the backdrop of things that are happening as talking to any Viera outside of the Wood reveals the restlessness and migration of the race into the new modern world. Her story touches upon the historical events of Western Expansion into tribal territories. But what also makes Fran an enjoyable character is the relationship she has with Balthier. The two have great chemistry and its mostly shown through body language and each knowing what the other needs (well mostly Fran saving Balthier) but their actions and body and interactions show a real level of trust. I never doubted why these two were partners, it was simply obvious by how well they worked together. This has been lacking the series as well, rarely do characters in the FF series exhibit this kind of camaraderie with each other, instead choosing to be a big family usually when they should be more professional (I'm looking at you SeeD). Her ending with Balthier was especially touching and even comical with their wicked banter together.

Basch is just awesome, he's a great leader and total badass in the opening of the game, especially when he saves Reks life from that mob by himself. He gets his reputation ruined by his brother no less, is considered an outlaw and an outcast in his new homeland, gets rejected by the resistance, is betrayed by his best friend, and is treated like dirt by the woman he has sworn to protect. Yet, despite it all, he shoulders the burden and keeps moving forward, he doesn't complain about how terrible his plight is, rather he continues to try to change things for the better on his terms. This is so welcomed after years of listening to heroes trying to find themselves and complaining about how powerless they are, to actually have someone who just rolls with the punches and sticks to his own beliefs. Could you imagine how much crap Terra and Cloud could have accomplished if they had half of Basch's resolve? His dialogue with Ashe as he tries to convince her to move from her path of revenge shows his wisdom, his argument with Vossler as he reveals his betrayal shows his integrity, and even his two confrontations with his brother show that Basch is the very definition of a hero with absolute resolve. The man fights for Ashe and Dalmasca so he can prevent the repeat of his own homeland's fall. He's a fascinating human being and its a shame he was removed as the central hero cause he has all the qualities to be one of the greatest heroes in the FF series.

Lady Ashe is the soul of the games plot, her tale of tragedy and her quest for revenge is the plot of XII. Despite all this hoo haw about XII being plot driven with no character development, I feel you missed the big picture, the story isn't so much about Vayne and the Occurians as it is about Ashe's journey to decide between her personal desire for revenge or her selfless duty to her people. She is manipulated by the Occurians to get revenge and then later manipulated by Vayne to go against the Occurians as he and Cid set them on the path to Giruvegan and the Pharos. Most female heroines are meek and gentle with this bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: "inner strength" people keep yapping about which mostly amounts to them doing something incredibly stupid but its supposedly "alraight, cause they had good intentions" why not call it like it is and say they were being a stupid utilitarian bitch and then leave them to get themselves killed. Ashe transcends all this cause she is a B-I-A-T-C-H with a capital B and would leave you to die the moment you became a nuisance to her. This was incredibly refreshing and made her a much more interesting character as we watched her constantly be faced with justifications for revenge as the Empire slaughter innocents and ruin people's lives. Yet her time watching Vaan, Penelo, and Larsa together, talking with Vaan about his lost of his brother Reks, Vossler's revenge and Basch's nobility to stand by her despite her treating him like trash, the revelations of Balthier's past and watching Fran's race face the change in history for Ivalice; after all that, Ashe begins to see that the world isn't simply about her self and revenge would not ease her lost. This is the whole point of XII's plot, its Ashe's journey.


Vayne is a great antagonist because he hides his ambitions behind his noble crusade to overthrow the Occurians. As AJMan put it, Vayne doesn't do the whole "badass villain of evil" he's not meant to be larger than life but just another human being trying to etch his name on history and do what he feels is best (for him). Yet part of me feels he does have some level of nobility within him, if he truly believed only in power, he would have killed his brother Larsa so he would have no challenge to the throne but rather he shows on more than one occasion to care for him. His relationship and conversations with Cid show both of them as more human than the stereotypical mad men of other villains in their situations. Yet, Vayne does a lot for himself, he murders his father to get the throne, frames the Senate so he can dissolve it and transform the Senate into a true authoritarian imperial government, manipulates Ashe and the party into a confrontation with the Occurians by killing the Gran Kiltias who could have proven Lady Ashe's heritage, has Cid lead them to Giruvegan so Ashe could learn the truth about her ancestor and Vayne's ambitions and then the final confrontation with the Occurians at the Pharos which destroyed the Occurians main source of influence on humanity and also dispersed the power needed to get the Sky Fortress Bahamut up and running and allow him to conquer Rozarrio and eventually the world. Even Kuja and Sephiroth had to work a bit harder to pull this level of planning off and Vayne does it quite effortlessly. The guy even has one of the coolest final boss forms (and his second form is quite possibly the funniest Hulk-Vayne SMASH!!!), and yet fans even debate if his actions were completely for selfish gain. Its amusing to see that Vayne's death allowed his brother to take over the Empire and gave him the ability to set things right with no obstacles in his way... Whereas people debate what Ultimecia's motive even was, XII fans actually debate what Vayne's true intentions were, whether his villainous act were for the sake of humanity and his brother or whether he was simply using the battle of the Occurians as an excuse to gain power. Either way, I felt he was a great antagonist and villain.

So looking at all I've written, no I can't agree with the idea that XII didn't have character development or even soul. Most of what I've written is just paraphrasing of events and details so I felt the game actually had quite a bit going on with the cast, it just cut out the silly angst that people mistake for emotion when its really just bad acting and writing.

The world itself is filled with tons of stories and elements, from learning about Reks by meeting the people whose lives he touched like Jovy, from the rebuilding of the Mt. Bur-Omisace and the story of Ieeha and Relj as which gives a conclusion on the temples fate as well as a touching story of loss, helping the Cactoid family in the desert, the Archadian soldier who falls in love with Rabanastre, the Cockatrice hunt, the rich family and the mystery of the Black object in the sky, resolution on the tales of War chief Supinelu of the Garif Tribe, the moogle engineers, the quest to help the Nu Muo seal off the great evils of Nabudis, the Viera looking for her soulmate, the moogle who chooses you out for looking at him funny as he drinks alcohol, the pirates of Balfoheim debating about the future of the city after Reddas disappears, even discovering the Hunt Club and exploring the social structures of Archades.

The world is living and breathing, all you have to do is stop and smell the roses once in awhile and see how much thought and effort was put into everything. You missed half the game if you didn't just wander around a bit and talk to a few interesting people. Every place and monster has a bit of history to it and unlike a certain previous effort, its left to the player's discretion to learn this information instead of listening to long winded speeches like the world has a couple of people whose role is to be your parties tour guide. The mythological legend about the origin of Ivalice is smurfing awesome not to mention all the winks and nudges to previous FFs and Matsuno titles (Spoony Bards and Merlose the Sage to name a few). Maybe Ivalice was not everyone's cup of tea but this game crafted an FF world that has more history and elements going on than most of the FFs combined.

This is simply my two cent's on the whole subject. We all have our own strong opinions but as far as I'm concerned this simply comes down to personal preference and taste, there really are no "facts" to say this game was better or worse than any other and that simply goes without saying to games as a whole. :cool:

Dayum, this thread has some massive walls of text!

I'll just mention that I think FFXII is a good game and leave it at that, 'kay.

I heard all that"it's a breathe of fresh air stuff" before on another forum back when the game first came out and it failed to move me then..and still I don't see it.
I just don't see it.

Maybe it's too subtle for me..as someone else pointed out maybe some of us can't see the subtlities of the game.Maybe some of us want those larger then life characters.

We don't want sudued characters who are overwhelmed by the opposition ..by the judges and Cid when they had scenes.
I am not sure the subtle characterization of the heroes is deliberate either.I always felt it was due to Matusno's departure.That if he had stayed he would have done more to make the characters more dynamic like he did in FF Tactics.

You look at historical characters from Grant and Lee, to Rommel and Patton...I want my game characters to have this driving will and my villains as someone pointed out in another thread to be very bad..Sephiroth/Kefka/Kuja bad and Vayne just comes up way way short of those guys imo.

After some of the excessive debating on the FFXIII thread..which I agree that we don't want to go to the negativity there..rotfl..and we can have a more polite debate here..rotfl...:roll2
It all does come down to opinion.

We all have our preferences about what an dynamic rpg should have and in particular what an FF should have.I want my FFs to be dynamic and epic and FFXII falls way short of the mark for me on what I perceive an FF should be.:p

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

I heard all that"it's a breathe of fresh air stuff" before on another forum back when the game first came out and it failed to move me then..and still I don't see it.
I just don't see it.

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As the old saying goes, you can't please everybody. I personally thought that this game was nothing short of a masterpiece, but we all have our likes and dislikes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Maybe it's too subtle for me..as someone else pointed out maybe some of us can't see the subtlities of the game.Maybe some of us want those larger then life characters.

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The only really subtle thing about this game is the character development. The character's changes are slow, gradual, and a little underplayed compared to earlier entries.

With that said, I'd say that the plot itself and the presentation of it all was anything but subtle. Every thing felt like it was done on such a massive and epic scale that it sometimes felt like watching a massive epic adventure film like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Jurassic Park. This is probably another reason why I love this game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

We don't want sudued characters who are overwhelmed by the opposition ..by the judges and Cid when they had scenes.
I am not sure the subtle characterization of the heroes is deliberate either.I always felt it was due to Matusno's departure.That if he had stayed he would have done more to make the characters more dynamic like he did in FF Tactics.

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Subdued characters? You can't tell me that everytime Balthier entered the screen that he didn't completely steal the scene (except maybe with his father Cid was present). Or how about Basch, that man just oozed with pure bad a**ery. This game had characters that stuck out aside from Cid and The Judges, and besides villains usually steal the show in most other forms of entertainment. Just look at the Joker from the Dark Knight.

I really can't comment on if things would have been different if Matsuno didn't leave. It's might be true that somethings would have went quite different. I personally don't know enough about it so I can't really speculate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

You look at historical characters from Grant and Lee, to Rommel and Patton...I want my game characters to have this driving will and my villains as someone pointed out in another thread to be very bad..Sephiroth/Kefka/Kuja bad and Vayne just comes up way way short of those guys imo.

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It's hard for real life people to even begin to compare with those historical figures, I don't typically expect fictional ones to, but thats just me.;)

As for evil villains, Vayne was just as evil as anyone of those characters. He's responsible for countless deaths in one form or another and all in the pursut of greater power. The only real difference between Vayne and the other characters is he tries to convince people that what he's doing is the best thing in the end; hell,he believes it himself. This actually both makes him a more realistic villain and a more frightening villain. He's very much like real life dictator's that have caused terrible atrocities; a good example of one is Adolf Hitler. What he did was horrible, and terrifyingly evil, however, Hitler didn't at all think that he was evil. He thought he was in the right, he felt that his actions were justified. The highjackers in the 9-11 terrorist attacks didn't at all think that what they did was evil, they believe the U.S deserved it. The point is most evil people don't consider themselves evil. And that's what makes Vayne such and awesome and terrifingly familiar villain in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

After some of the excessive debating on the FFXIII thread..which I agree that we don't want to go to the negativity there..rotfl..and we can have a more polite debate here..rotfl...:roll2
It all does come down to opinion.



We all have our preferences about what an dynamic rpg should have and in particular what an FF should have.I want my FFs to be dynamic and epic and FFXII falls way short of the mark for me on what I perceive an FF should be.

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You are 100% absolutely right; it all really does come down to opinion. However it's still fun to discuss these topics so long as it's kept at polite and respectful level.:beer:

:redface:

That was one of the issues.

Masterpiece ?

rotlf...
The game felt unfinished to me.Probably because again..I felt Matsuno left it unfinished...

epic scale ?

rotfl...
The landscape felt large and Dalmasca looked good because of the graphics which were good for a PS2. The cutscene where Vayne visted the city gave the impression of magnificence but that was about it.

As far as Balthier.....he 's overrated....Basch was the faithful soldier wrongfully accused but still loyal..and while I respected that I didn't feel it was compelling...Fran while she had her good points we didn't know enough about why she left her home.I didn't relate to her doing so in any way.
Vaan and Penelo just didn't do anything or say anything to make me root for them.
The characters for me just didn't make me feel drawn to them.

So while the game could have been/should have been a masterpiece it simply wasn't/isn't imo.
It was just largely booring. convoluted, incomplete and underdeveloped.

oh well....and I had been a big Matsuno fan.I feel Tactics is the best FF game of all the FFs.Better than the much vaunted numbered FF games.
What happened to Matsuno I don't know.But I am not buying this..well Square wanted the games made more like an MMO or an FPS and that why is the game doesn't feel right.That's the usual excuse defenders of the game have made.
It does seem like an MMO but is that what Square really wanted ?

Why would they want that ? To appeal to World of Warcraft type fans ? Or FFXI fans ? Why should they devolve a game that had such high expectations..an Ivalice game that had a ready made fanbase who wanted an epic along the lines of Tactics ?
I'm not convinced that was the case.

shrugs.

anyway...disagreeing is the spice of life or so it seems...:roll2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

:redface:

That was one of the issues.

Masterpiece ?

rotlf...
The game felt unfinished to me.Probably because again..I felt Matsuno left it unfinished...

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Considering the shear amount of gameplay content, story, and backstory, I felt that this game was anything but incomplete.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

epic scale ?

rotfl...
The landscape felt large and Dalmasca looked good because of the graphics which were good for a PS2. The cutscene where Vayne visted the city gave the impression of magnificence but that was about it.

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You didn't find locations like giruvagan, the cadaract, or even the pharos to be spectular looking at all ? How about the city of Archadia, my only complaint their was that there wasn't more areas to explore in that city. I felt XII had many locations that were stunning to look at.

As for cutscenes, what about the opening of the game or the big battle at the end. How many FFs start out with such a bang and end with an even bigger bang.

Some of the battles and bosses are some of the biggest in the series, in my personal opinion. Heck just look at the final battle, sure Vayne was a bit easy (as is many final FF battles), but you can't deny the very cinematic presentation of it all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

As far as Balthier.....he 's overrated....Basch was the faithful soldier wrongfully accused but still loyal..and while I respected that I didn't feel it was compelling...Fran while she had her good points we didn't know enough about why she left her home.I didn't relate to her doing so in any way.
Vaan and Penelo just didn't do anything or say anything to make me root for them.
The characters for me just didn't make me feel drawn to them.

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Not much that I can say here other than I had the complete opposite opinion. Balthier was a real show stealer, Basch was a true hero and knight, Fran was well...Fran, Vaan is a hero in training and strong willed youth, Ashe is a strong and willful female protagonist, and Penelo was also in enduring character in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

So while the game could have been/should have been a masterpiece it simply wasn't/isn't imo.
It was just largely booring. convoluted, incomplete and underdeveloped.

---

So while this game my not be your cup of tea, it was exciting and fun, not hard to understand, and one of the biggest games in the franchise in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

oh well....and I had been a big Matsuno fan.I feel Tactics is the best FF game of all the FFs.Better than the much vaunted numbered FF games.
What happened to Matsuno I don't know.But I am not buying this..well Square wanted the games made more like an MMO or an FPS and that why is the game doesn't feel right.That's the usual excuse defenders of the game have made.
It does seem like an MMO but is that what Square really wanted ?

Why would they want that ? To appeal to World of Warcraft type fans ? Or FFXI fans ? Why should they devolve a game that had such high expectations..an Ivalice game that had a ready made fanbase who wanted an epic along the lines of Tactics ?
I'm not convinced that was the case.

---

I'm also a big Tactics fan, Tactics is what got me into the series. I first tried VII (as many did) and didn't care for it. How ever my brother I went to the store to each get a game (we were like twelve when this happened, so that was over ten years ago), and the store clerk managed to talk us into getting Tactics. We listen to him and bought, got home and played it and loved it. After that I gave VII another go and liked it and have been a FF fan since despite the fact that I don't play FF games much anymore except XII and Tactics ironically enough.

I think what they were trying to do with XII was simply to try something different. Nothing more nothing less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

:redface:

That was one of the issues.

Masterpiece ?

rotlf...
The game felt unfinished to me.Probably because again..I felt Matsuno left it unfinished...

epic scale ?

rotfl...

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How very condescending. Ive noticed you quite frequentley laugh at other peoples opinions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

It was just largely booring. convoluted, incomplete and underdeveloped.

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Opinion, opinion, opinion and opinion. There is no evidence to support that the game was incomplete and underdeveloped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

What happened to Matsuno I don't know.But I am not buying this..well Square wanted the games made more like an MMO or an FPS and that why is the game doesn't feel right.That's the usual excuse defenders of the game have made.
It does seem like an MMO but is that what Square really wanted ?

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If Matsuno's departure had any impact on the game, it certainly wasn't in relation to the combat system or gambits, which were designed very early in the develpment stages. I think it is very clear that SE were trying to create an intricate world that focused on gameplay and exploration, it isn't some unfortunate accident that happened due to Matsuno's departure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Why would they want that ? To appeal to World of Warcraft type fans ? Or FFXI fans ? Why should they devolve a game that had such high expectations..an Ivalice game that had a ready made fanbase who wanted an epic along the lines of Tactics ?
I'm not convinced that was the case.

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Is it really that hard to believe that this is the game they intended to make? Every FF goes through a number of changes and the formula the games follow has taken numerous hits. FFIV took away any and all customization after FFIII which was built on it. FFVII thrusted the series into a futuristic world, FFV had FOUR static characters and FFVI followed with FOURTEEN. FFX scrapped the ATB system, a pretty bold move after VII, VIII and IX. FFXIII tosses away gameplay almost entirely for a story driven game. I can't say this is exactly how they planned FFXII, presumabley there would be differences, but i highly doubt they would be on such a large scale.

just a little bit.

smile

My laughing has nothing to do with what people I disagree with posts.It has to do with all the drama I went through back when I was a member of gamefaqs..and the unfair treatment I receive there.So the laughter reminds me of that and nothing more.

I've decided to stop posting about FFXII now.
I feel irritated and don't want to start a flamewar or risk getting banned.

*snip*

People who like FFXII are entitled to like it and I've said that numerous times. I respect their right to like and enjoy the game.

I've expressed my views about FFXII so there's no practical need for me to continue to participate in this discussion..:mad:


You fellas have a nice day.

WK ~ I don't mind if people you tell you stuff in private but please don't discuss personal things about other members in the thread please

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

just a little bit.

smile

My laughing has nothing to do with what people I disagree with posts.It has to do with all the drama I went through back when I was a member of gamefaqs..and the unfair treatment I receive there.So the laughter reminds me of that and nothing more.

I've decided to stop posting about FFXII now.
I feel irritated and don't want to start a flamewar or risk getting banned.

*snip*

People who like FFXII are entitled to like it and I've said that numerous times. I respect their right to like and enjoy the game.

I've expressed my views about FFXII so there's no practical need for me to continue to participate in this discussion..:mad:


You fellas have a nice day.

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I couldn't help but feel you were being condescending, it's easy to perceive it that way, but if you say it's not intended then i apologize.

My oponent lol. Love it. The sad thing is, i agree with most of what he says regarding FFXIII, i dislike it almost as much as him. *snip*

Anyway, i don't think anyone can really add anything constructive to this debate anymore which makes taking part kind of redundant. If anyone does have anymore to add then i refer them to Wolf Kanno's post on the previous page :)

WK ~ Please don't discuss private affairs of other members please. Even if someone else brought it up, it can be seen as hurtful to the member in discussion.

Far from it, actually. I will never kow tow. I will be writing 1 last post here before I give this a rest (as otherwise I will be banned...yes it's good to shut up 1 section of debate like mine but you can praise it with baseless opinions til the cows come home and that's all ok), and it will cover everything, especially this "it is opinion" cop out that many seem to adore. An utterly flawed argument which I will put to bed.

Should I get a ban for this final post so be it, but I see no reason why I should do when others have been just as bad, just in the opposite direction.

We will see I guess ;) :D It will take some time to write and gather sources (you know those things you fail to add to your posts), but to quote Marin (Marlene)- it's coming.

oh well..less reason to post about anything now...:mad2:

shrugs..
You fellas have a nice day.:mad2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

and it will cover everything, especially this "it is opinion" cop out that many seem to adore. An utterly flawed argument which I will put to bed.

We will see I guess ;) :D It will take some time to write and gather sources (you know those things you fail to add to your posts), but to quote Marin (Marlene)- it's coming.

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I've saved you the trouble ;)

Quote:

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PSOne Extreme - 10 / 10
IGN - 9.5 / 10
Thunderbolt - 9 / 10
VideoGamer - 9 / 10
Worth Playing - 9.8 / 10
GameZone - 9.8 / 10
Eurogamer - 10 / 10
1UP - 9.5 / 10
HonestGamers - 7 / 10
AllRPG - 4 / 10
GamePlasma - 9.2 / 10
VGPub - 6.2 / 10
NTSC uk - 7 / 10
Playstation Universe - 9.5 / 10
UltraNinjas - 8 / 10
Fragland - 99 / 100
Boomtown - 8 / 10
Console Obsession - 8 / 10
Futuregamez - 96 / 100
Netjak - 7.2 / 10
Mygamer - 8 / 10
Gameplanet - 5 / 5
play.tm - 89 / 100
NZGamer - 8.8 / 10
PALGN - 8.5 / 10
Armchair Empire - 7.5 / 10
JIVEMagazine - 5 / 5
Cheat Code Central - 5 / 5
Gamer Within - 9.5 / 10
GamersMark - 9 / 10
Games Are Fun - 10 / 10
Gaming Horizon - 9 / 10
AceGamez - 9 / 10
Lawrence - 9.6 / 10
Gaming Target - 10 / 10
GotNext - 5 / 5
Gamer 2.0 - 8.7 / 10
Console Gameworld - 98 / 100
Next Level Gaming - 98 / 100
RPGamer - 4.5 / 5
Game Over Online - 85 / 100
ZTGameDomain - 9.5 / 10
GamingExcellence - 9.5 / 10
GamingTrend - 93 / 100
Gaming Nexus - 9 / 10
GamerNode - 9.3 / 10
RPGFan - 97 / 100
GameSpy - 5 / 5
Gametrailers - 8 / 10
eToychest - 97 / 100
GameDaily - 9 / 10
Kikizo - 9.4 / 10
Deeko - 9.5 / 10
Game Positive - 8.7 / 10
G4 - X-Play - 5 / 5
Play Magazine - 10 / 10
Official PS Magazine - 10 / 10
Electronic Gaming - 9 / 10
Game Informer - 9.25 / 10
PSM Magazine - 9.5 / 10
GamePro - 5 / 5
Play UK - 92 / 100
Pelit - 93 / 100
Playstation 2 Mag UK - 10 / 10
PSM3 Magazine UK - 94 / 100
Edge Magazine UK - 9 / 10
PSW Magazine UK - 9 / 10
Hardcore Gamer Magazine - 4 / 5
gamesTM - 8 / 10
Games Master UK - 91 / 100

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This shows the ratings given to FFXII from over 50 well known and respected gaming review sites/magazines. So i'd just like to emphasise again that your opinion is not fact. The facts are that FFXII is regarded as a good game, based on the above scores. Still not convinced? I have more...

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FFVII - 9.8m
FFVIII - 6.0m
FFIX - 5.08m
FFT - 2.3m
FFTA - 1.1m
FFX - 6.6m
FFXII - 5.2m
FFX-2 - 3.0m
FFDOC - 1.2m
FFCC - 1.2m
FFRW - 1.0m
FFXIII - 5.5m

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Sales figures. As you can see, the series has been in decline since its most recognized game-FFVII. In fact nothing comes close to VII so does that mean every FF since VII was a horrible game? Seems to be how your logic works. Anyway, FFXII may have been just over a million short of FFX, but it surpassed FFIX, so again, does that make IX a failure? If i am to understand correctly, you stated in the FFXIII forum that games should be judged by the successes of their predecessors, or at least they should be compared. And if FFXII is such a failure then IX technically is too. In fact everything after VII failed. So i'll ask one more time, is it still fact that FFXII is a bad game, or are you ready to accept that it's your opinion.

I look forward to your final thoughts on the subject but unfortunatley i just can't keep up a debate with someone who believes his opinions are fact. So i'll be happy to continue to debate with you, as long as you drop this "my opnions are fact" nonsense

EDIT: My sources, just so you don't think i'm making stuff up:

Final Fantasy XII Critic Reviews for PlayStation 2 - GameSpot

Final Fantasy - Video Game Sales Wiki - Video Game Sales, Charts, NPD, Graphs, Video Game Figures, and more!

Those are big magazine scores and not user scores,

Cop this >

Final Fantasy XII (ps2) reviews at Metacritic.com

7.7. (lowest)

Yeah, I never understood the great ratings of FFXII.

FFXII is even the second most hated FF game here at EoFF.

Odd, my EoFF Census is telling me otherwise, Levian ;)

Oh snap! I should get back to that... :shifty:

Also considering that only 4 out of 165 voters listed FFXII as their favorite game in the counter-thread to the one I linked, I'd definitely say that's odd, Wolf Kanno!

My Census did your top three choices. :D

It may not be everyone's favorite but it could be your second or third favorite. ;)

I think you should do a census on the bottom three choices and have people vote over what they disliked the most. :D

That's a loaded question though. If you only played FFVI and FFVII then one of those would have to be your 'least favorite' even though they are widely considered the favorites by many.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Those are big magazine scores and not user scores,

Cop this >

Final Fantasy XII (ps2) reviews at Metacritic.com

7.7. (lowest)

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Seifer you've once again shot yourself in the foot.

Quote:

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These publications are almost unanimous in indicating that scores below 50 indicate a negative review, while it usually takes a score in the upper 70s or higher to indicate that the game is unequivocally good

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This is from Metacritic.com, the site you refferred me to in your previous post.

I'll repeat it for you in nice big bold letters

THE GAME IS UNEQUIVOCALLY GOOD

That is big magazine's score and not a user score. There is a big difference between what a magazine say something is and what the general concensus is.

Look at the user votes that are an average of thousands of people and you see they differ completely with the 9 and 10 out of 10's.

I am sorry but that is the bare reality. And I really must not reply to you again because I am ready for the chop

LOL

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

That is big magazine's score and not a user score. There is a big difference between what a magazine say something is and what the general concensus is.

Look at the user votes that are an average of thousands of people and you see they differ completely with the 9 and 10 out of 10's.

I am sorry but that is the bare reality. And I really must not reply to you again because I am ready for the chop

LOL

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No, that statement refers to both critic reviews AND user reviews. The critic reviews give an overall score of 92/100. The user reviews has an overall score of 7.7/10 (77/100). Anthing in the high 70's is unequivocally good which ends the debate on your opinions being fact.

With that out of the way, i'm happy to discuss your opinions with you

A 7 is not a good user score for a final fantasy game. You are trying to get around this and it won't convince anyone. It is one of the lowest scoring FF's (actually I think THE lowest) by user scores.

Even a 1 point drop in a user score is very significant. Even here on this forum XII has got a hostile reception. You cannot claim that 7.7 is status quo for a modern final fantasy game because it isn't.

The only reason games like XII make it to 7.7 is because they are Final Fantasy and have great graphics. Take that away and XII would be scored even less. Breath of Fire III this game ain't.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

A 7 is not a good user score for a final fantasy game. You are trying to get around this and it won't convince anyone. It is one of the lowest scoring FF's (actually I think THE lowest) by user scores.

Even a 1 point drop in a user score is very significant. Even here on this forum XII has got a hostile reception. You cannot claim that 7.7 is status quo for a modern final fantasy game because it isn't.

The only reason games like XII make it to 7.7 is because they are Final Fantasy and have great graphics. Take that away and XII would be scored even less. Breath of Fire III this game ain't.

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This is what i am debating with you

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The whole game was a disaster

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This is your opinion, and obviously other peoples too. But if FFXII was such a disaster how did it sell more units than IX? 9.2/100 is a great score from the critics, 7.7/10 is also a decent score. By your logic, any game that sells less than 5.5million, or scores less than an 8/10 is a disaster.

I think what seifer is trying to say is that, compared to the ratings of other Final Fantasy games, it isn't as good. For FF games I feel we hold them to a higher standard. Yes, FFXII is a lot better than most games on the market, but compared to other FF games isn't that wonderful.

Anyway, i think we've got to the point where both sides are so entrenched in their opinions that no-one's going to agree with the other, making all further arguments pointless.

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Originally Posted by Levian

I think you should do a census on the bottom three choices and have people vote over what they disliked the most. :D

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It's taking him long enough to do the first census. Let's not even talk about a second yet. :D

I'm going to make a team for the second census so this will be alot easier. :D

I sorta ran into a bit of a snag which is why the census is taking so long. Counting up the points gets a bit tedious by yourself.

If you're in need of some help for this or the next census then feel free to give me a shout. I generally have an abundance of free time most days.

I'm playing through the game again right now but I gotta admit, the party is quite dull.

In fact, the only reason I got through the game was because of the Imperial side. Gabranth, Larsa, Cid... They made it all worthwhile.

Hell, every scene with a Judge is bound to be one of the best scenes in the game. Compare that with most of the forgettable scenes that center on just the party.

Not that I don't like the heroes. I liked Balthier fine. Fran was usless though.

But my point is, this game relies a lot more on the antagonists than the protagonists to keep me interested.

I loved FFXII... the world, the graphics (both beautiful art wise and technically), the music, the gameplay, the atmosphere, the characters, etc. I love the whole Ivalice universe and the people behind it, (Matsuno, Sakimoto, Yoshida, etc.) and FFXII has so much of this world to offer, there is so much content in the game!

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Those are big magazine scores and not user scores,

Cop this >

Final Fantasy XII (ps2) reviews at Metacritic.com

7.7. (lowest)

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FFXII also has a 9.1 user score on gamespot.com, based on 21,300 votes. Final Fantasy XII for PS2 - GAMESPOT.com

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Originally Posted by ssoass

FFXII also has a 9.1 user score on gamespot.com, based on 21,300 votes. Final Fantasy XII for PS2 - GAMESPOT.com

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Damn, I was just going to post that lol.

I agree with you that the game was awesome, and like WK said it is in my top 3 favorite FF games:

Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy XII

Probably one of my favourite instalments in the series, if only for the battle system that continuously calls me back. :D

Wow, quite a heated and interesting discussion here!!

My viewpoints were already expressed by the people who like XII, but I'll just add two random things. The character development in this game is so subtle and realistic. I love the characters. Lately Ashe has grown on me a lot. She's very determined and strong but also she is a young woman who has misgivings and doesn't seem sure of herself all the time. I really like her! Plus her voice acting is top notch. Another thing, I like that the story is very nebulous and can be interpreted in your own way. I like that it touches on free will versus destiny, and that there is no real bad guy. I'll admit I'm a bit hazy on the ending, I haven't beaten it in over a year, but isn't the fact that the party and Vayne actually want the same thing, man to be in control of his own destiny?? It's just that Vayne is a dick about it?

I'm replaying FFXII for the second time and I have to say the battle system be perfect if not for the constant need to grind for Gil. You'll never be able to afford decent equipment for your party unless you spend a good chunk of time finding the best chain spots.

It really gets tedious.

What a bunch of whiners. :tongue:

FFXII rules. The story was good. Sorry that there wasn't some metaphysical dilemma like in X, IX, VIII, and VII...Those storylines with huge, bizarre, and far-fetched twists are cool and all but it was time for something different. I like that FXII had more of a political/classic fantasy story.

FXII's battle system ruled. I chose not to completely exploit the gambit system, and only set gambits for basic attacking and healing, preferring to micromanage everything else and I had my options set on -wait-, so I could pause the battle and search through the menus to select an ability. This probably made some boss battles tougher than they needed to be but this is the way I chose to play and I loved it.

IMO, since you have the option to exploit the gambit system or not, you can't complain about it.

EDIT: I will admit that the Esper's were completely useless in battle and wish the developers would have made them more useful.

FFXII is my favourite game in the series! It more closely resembles literature than video games. No, it doesn't tell the player exactly what the character is thinking, but neither do classic plays and the like. You can tell their motivations, their thoughts, their desires by their actions. This is what makes it superior to the other Final Fantasies. I think that one big reason for this is because of the fact that the 3D rendering capabilities of the PS2 gave the designers more freedom to play with character gestures and expressions, something that we didn't see in previous installments because of the limitations placed on the developers by the consoles. We saw the transition in FFX. The only difference is that FFX was narrated by Tidus. If FFXII would have been narrated by one of the main characters, it would've been received in a completely different manner. I am extremely thankful that Square didn't take that approach though.

I also love the battle system. The battle system explains the pacing issues. The battle system requires very, very large areas, so it's only reasonable for the trek between two towns to be much longer in turn. This is why they added in the Teleport Crystals!

All in all, I give this game 10/10. The graphics were beautiful, the world was realistic and alive, the animation was absolutely top-notch, the characters were believable and relatable, the story moved at a pace that I could understand, there were just enough plot twists to keep me intrigued but not so many that I wtf'd, it started on a bang, it ended on a bang, there was very little down time in between (especially for a Final Fantasy game, where we often have hours of filler downtime between two major events).

The game was a literary wonder. It's not a masterpiece, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

EDIT: I also agree with everything that you said, Lamia. The design of the Espers absolutely blew me away, but their stats made them useful in a very small window of opportunities. This was simply a balancing issue though; it wasn't a system design flaw on Square's part. I found the way in which the Espers functioned to be brilliant.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

It more closely resembles literature than video games. No, it doesn't tell the player exactly what the character is thinking, but neither do classic plays and the like. You can tell their motivations, their thoughts, their desires by their actions. This is what makes it superior to the other Final Fantasies.

The game was a literary wonder. It's not a masterpiece, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

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I think this is why I love XII so much. It's so much more like playing a literary epic than just playing a game. I'm a literature major at uni with more than a passing interest in history so XII was a really fun experience for me, and I think it may appeal to people with these interests in general. It seemed to combine all my favourite things: excellent writing (those Occurians speak in iambic pentameter!), moral complexity, subtle characters, a beautiful world with a dense history inspired by and combining classical cultures, and a layered story that didn't rely on twists. Obviously, other FFs have some of these elements but I feel they really came together excellently in XII. I felt, after finishing it, that it would have made a fine novel.

I know the characters subtlety is interpreted as a "lack" by many people but I really liked this aspect of the game. There were things that could have been improved, but I felt and apppreciated that the game asked you to use your imagination to fill in the gaps of the character's development. Good or bad for a game? Depends on the gamer, I guess.

I love this game, so much. Though the story didn't live up to the previous stories of final fantasy (VII and VIII in particular), I still found it awesome because it was just so different. To me, most previous final fantasies were love stories (like VIII, IX, and especially X...), and solely focused on character development, whereas XII takes a different approach and rather focuses on the development of nations through continuous warfare, and how it affects its people. I think the reason why a lot of people don't like the story is becuase it's so different from the previous titles. However, the story does lack emotion in its scenes, I find.

I loved the characters, the setting, and just the air of the game... They were all good. I loved Ashe especially. It was cool to see her go from Queen to working in a resistance group. Vayne was a good bad guy, and it was interesting to see how he slipped into getting to the top of the Archadian Government.

The music was simply priceless; definitely memorable, especially that boss battle theme... God, I love it.

I actually enjoyed the gambit system, as well. Though it clearly promotes laziness, I feel that, because of the way the battle system works, if we had to manually input every action, it would be so annoying and tedious... And this for all three people, it would make me too frustrated. The gambit system solves this problem well, though. And I also loved not having to go through a transition between screens whenever there was battle... The whole idea of actually being able to stray away from enemies really suited me, and it was a nice change from earlier titles.

The hunts weren't the best ever (especially when compared to XIII hunts), but they weren't awful. Some of the stories that go with them were interesting as well, and added a nice effect to the game.

Overall, a 9.5/10 I believe? I pretty much loved everything about the game. :)

I loved XII. The graphics, the gameplay, the story... I loved it all.

One of the best titles of the franchise, and awesome story. Characters are great and love the world Ivalice. Battle system is top notch and not sure what brings this game as many critics as it does. I thought FFIX caught a lot of hell until I joined this message board just to find out it's just the opposite. It's not my favorite but it pretty high on the list. I do have one main beef, and that's how Vann and Penelo. If they weren't introduced so early and made to be leading stars, then they could just be random extras but they weren't and the two could easily be tossed out of the game without it hurting a thing. I guess that's one flaw I'd fix about FFXII. Toss out the two and replace them with some deeper characters and the game would be better.

I wasn't a big fan of it just because the characters expressions in my opinon felt plain. Also the battle system was wack. Don't get me wrong but the game was pretty in all but it wasnt all that. I think true FF games stopped at 10. FF13 was good but not in FF terms. Hopefully FF13-2 will bring back some traditional FF features.

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Originally Posted by CloudNyne

I wasn't a big fan of it just because the characters expressions in my opinon felt plain. Also the battle system was wack. Don't get me wrong but the game was pretty in all but it wasnt all that. I think true FF games stopped at 10. FF13 was good but not in FF terms. Hopefully FF13-2 will bring back some traditional FF features.

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Also have high hopes for FFXIII in that regard since they seem to be bringing cities and NPCs back.

I thought FFX was way too linear and FFXII brought more freedom back to the player. I liked it a lot more therefore than FFX

This thread is pretty old, we tend not to revive old threads!