Sidequests =/= Marks

So, yeah. I was thinking about Crisis Core, when I remembered the big long mission list. That got me thinking about some other FFs (specifically, X, XII, and XIII). The list of optional content in FF games is taking a trend I really don't like. In X, we had the optional bosses in the Monster Arena. That was fair enough. Each individual one had a specific purpose (being the source of particular equipment or Spheres), and the final one was an optional superboss. I had no problem with that system, except that it seems to have triggered the onslaught of Square's newest obsession: Marks.

Marks seem to be Square's solution to optional content. When XII came out, most of the sidequests were scrapped (there are still a few, but they are very poorly done), and Marks became one of the game's highlights. The number of good moments were few and far between. What mark left the most lasting memory? Gilgamesh. Why? I guarantee it has nothing to do with the way the battle is fought. No, it's because there was good writing and excellent characters behind it.

Crisis Core was also extremely Mission heavy. Each mission involved? Yep, hunting down a particular monster on a map and killing it. Apart from the mission summaries, was there any interesting dialogue in the missions? Nope.

Then we get into XIII. All other content (besides a single two minute minigame early on) is completely absent. They even took out the interesting backstory bits from the bestiary. In its place, we get more marks. And these are worse still. The battles are no different than every other battle we fight. A good number of the mark missions are to kill the same monsters we've been grinding against for the whole game. Events around the marks are almost completely absent, and when they are around, they are just five second cutscenes completely devoid of interest or even dialogue (there is one interesting mark scene, and one mark scene that features dialogue [but is still boring]).

What is happening to the rest of the game content? All other content is getting squeezed out of the game, and the marks are getting blander and blander. This is not a promising future for the series. What happened to the other sidequests? To the Wonder Square and Chocobo Racing? To Mr. Dolphin or the Shinra marching corps? To the huge Materia sidequests? And all of those were just a few instances among many in a single game. Where has all the content gone?

If you're complaining about the diminishing side-quests, then technically your complaints should start with FFVII. The second half of FFVI was nothing but a series of side quests. Starting with FFVII, the number of side quests diminished.

I don't see anything wrong with it. They're experimenting with different game formats. I'm sure they would get bored making the same style of game all of the time. And as long as people buy the games, it means someone out there approves of it.

Unfortunately the hardcore completionist nuts for any game will always want more to do. Throwing in an extra couple dozen hours of optional mark hunts is an extremely easy way to keep completionists busy. It seems an JRPG is defined as fatally flawed is you can't find ways to invest a hundred hours into it in addition to the main story. Since this is somewhat of a ludicrous expectation, I don't blame developers in the least for just throwing some crap out for people to gobble up.

Playing Disgaea gave me a very good sense of perspective on sidequests. Previously, as in SNES titles, side quests were part of the game. Picking up all the characters in FFVI wasn't a diversion, it was a core part of the game. As JRPGs have 'grown up' it seems that optional content has become more optional. I finaly made the separation in my mind when playing Disgaea, as there is probably 200+ hours of crap to do afte the game ends. Mostly consisting of grinding.
I finally realized I can play an RPG, enjoy it, and just pick out parts of the post game that I enjoy and leave the rest. It doesn't ruin my game experience to not complete a bunch of stuff that was thrown in to keep people who wan to keep playing busy.

It really depends on how it is handled.

In FFX, unlocking the monster arena bosses was probabley a bigger effort than fighting them. The monster arena itself was interesting but FFX wasn't just limited to that. It had blitzball, chocobo racing and numerous other bits. Overall, not half bad.

Crisis Core (which i'll just mention i love before i commence the bashing) had missions which were constant recycles of maps and monsters. 300 in total if i remember and just grew more tedious the more you conquered. A few of them had some dialogue or interesting enemies to fight but it wasn't nearly enough.

FFXIII marks were lazy. You knew where the cieth stones were (They glowed on the map) you were told where the mark was (with a little star on the map) and it was a simple case of "go here and defeat it" much like Crisis Core except it takes place for the most part over a single map.

FFXII was the game that did it right in my opinion. Seeing a bill posted for the hunting of a mark meant first having to find the petitioner. Finding the petitioner wasn't a difficult task, but talking to them makes the whole hunt more involving. The mark is being petitioned for a reason and you feel as if you are helping someone by vanquishing it. Finding the mark is the next bit, often you have to find clues as to where you'll find him or how to make it spawn, usually certain conditions are required. Next you have to fight it. Most of the initial marks aren't anything spectacular, but later you'll find many marks who are memorable, challenging and will test your ability for battle, Often giving you a sense of acomplishment for overcoming them. Finally you must head back to the petitioner to claim your reward. Watching your clan rank grow in the clan hall and joining other mark hunters adds to the experience. FFXII also had fishing, pirate olympics and tbh a great tonne of sidequests apart from mark hunting to take part in.

I agree that mark hunts are becoming a common thing in FF, but that's not always a bad thing, it depends on how it's handled. FFXIII is a linear game so even when you think you're being given sidequests to do, you'll see that it's still a case of "Walk here - fight this" and little else. In other words, not very involving and poorly implemented. Future FF's won't nessesarily follow FFXIII's formula and such marks would be handled differently also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

FFXII also had fishing, pirate olympics and tbh a great tonne of sidequests apart from mark hunting to take part in.

---

What the, how did I miss this?!

the person who made that post is exaggerating.

The mark hunting was the game's single shining light.

Too bad there wasn't more done with the hunt club and clan concepts.

Most of the other side quests in FFXII were lame and had dubious rewards for success.
Most of them involved hunting for something or someone.

shrugs.

The sidequests have suffered in games because it takes some thought and originality to come up with an interesting one and the developers don't feel it seems they have to time to devote to it.

:mad:

Quote:

---

Where has all the content gone?

---

Here in this game :eep:
http://i43.:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:...u:/359g1no.jpg

My main beef with Marks is they're cheap. With nothing but text and a color-swap on a monster template, the developer arbitrarily extends the play time. I personally did like most of the Marks in FFXII, but you gotta have something on top of that. Still, I wanna believe there's a lot more there than we're giving credit for, but the Marks just kind of overshadow everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flying Mullet

If you're complaining about the diminishing side-quests, then technically your complaints should start with FFVII. The second half of FFVI was nothing but a series of side quests. Starting with FFVII, the number of side quests diminished.

---

I gotta call BS on that. The majority of the 2nd half of FFVI is really just the story simply broken up into episodes and made optional. If something dramatically changes the ending, it's not really a "sidequest" per se. Strago's Doomtrain (or is it trine?), Mog, Umaro, those are actual sidequests. While there are many real sidequests apart from that, FFVII has just as much if not far more, and if we stacked hour for hour, i guarantee you FFVII would easily outpace it. I can complete everything in FFVI in 35 hours, but I know people with 100+ hours on FFFVII. Not to mention FFVIII, IX, and X were packed with them as well, that kinda kills your assertion of the trend starting with VII.

Even if we were to take your assertion as true, that would make FFV and VI the only sidequest-heavy games in the series. FFIV had Bahamut, Excaliber, Leviathan/Asura, Fairies, and I believe that pretty much closes the book. FFIII had even less, and II mostly relied on the optional rooms and bosses in Pandemonium. But like I said, if we measure up VII, VIII, IX, and X against V and VI, I'm sure the later ones far exceed them, at least in hour count if nothing else.

I would say that XIII was the only game I felt lacked in sidequests of those I have played. Having said that, I've not gone far into most of the earlier FF's, so I'm not sure on them entirely. But VII, VIII, X, XI and XII had enough. I'm not sure on the full extent of XII's, admittedly, as I never finished the game (forgot the plot while doing sidequests... eh heh).

I agree that sidequests are getting too closely associated with battles nowadays.

Yeah I'm personally sick of marks. They added them to FFXI too, though a lot of that game is already hunting down specific creatures.

I love sidequests, especially ones that required you to do many different and intersting things. FFX's monster arena required some different things and had a lot of other stuff to do besides. FFXIII's mark system just seems lazy.

It is lazy. And kind of an insult. Sidequests were one of the things that originally got me into these games. And Mullet, I also have to disagree. Not sure if you just don't like 7 or what, but it had soooo many sidequests. VI's sidequests were pretty much Coliseum (like Marks, in a way) and recollecting your characters, but I don't consider that a sidequest because you should probably do that anyway.

Actually VII-IX definitely had the most and best sidequests the series had to offer. X's alright but I like that game for story, not Blitzball.

It would be neat to have optional characters again, mind you. I don't think I got to that point in VI, but I found it really neat that in VII there were two "unlockable" characters that had their own little "things to do".

Too bad voice acting and HD sprites has killed the chances of ever seeing optional characters again. The cost is way to high for characters people might not even see. :cry:

Couldn't they just leave them out of important cutscenes? Actually, scratch that -- newer games are only cutscenes, aren't they?

I loved the sidequests in FFVII... I spent many-an hour completing them when I was a wee kid. And I loved the card game in VIII.

Hell, I even loved the Marks in FFXII, though it was disappointing that they were the only main side quest, really. The other ones bored me to tears. I guess really what we need is variety. We need more than just marks. Though they repeated the card game twice, both of the games were very different.

Also, I still think Chocobo breeding and racing is the best thing ever; if only they could somehow do that again with more options for the racing (how many times did I watch that guy go over the waterfall in his canoe...?)

I just get a little bored in FFVIII when I beat Omega and I'm like, Okay cool. Now what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

I just get a little bored in FFVIII when I beat Omega and I'm like, Okay cool. Now what?

---

Shumi Village, the Obel Lake quest, the Card Queen quest, the Card Club quests, the Centra Ruins sidequest, the pigtailed Library girl's story, the Master Fisherman, acquiring Doomtrain, acquiring Bahamut, meeting Pu Pu, the Chocobo Forests, Winhill...

Omega was the last thing to do in VIII, of course it will not be as exciting afterward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyblade

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

I just get a little bored in FFVIII when I beat Omega and I'm like, Okay cool. Now what?

---

Shumi Village, the Obel Lake quest, the Card Queen quest, the Card Club quests, the Centra Ruins sidequest, the pigtailed Library girl's story, the Master Fisherman, acquiring Doomtrain, acquiring Bahamut, meeting Pu Pu, the Chocobo Forests, Winhill...

Omega was the last thing to do in VIII, of course it will not be as exciting afterward.

---

My point was I like a lot of tough bosses! Yeah there were some others but with the Junction system Omega was the only real challenge. Fetch quests are fun the first time (and FFVIII's were quite nice), but after that it just gets old (kinda funny how I played Threads of Fate so many times). GF collecting and Triple Triad I still enjoy, though they provided no challenge.

FFVIII doesn't do hard bosses, in all honesty - mostly due to the junction system and the item/card mod system. If you want hard battles, you should probably play FFXIII again. :p Alternatively, try putting no magic onto certain junctions and see how well you get on.

Ultima was harder than Omega.

But, yeah, FFVIII was lacking in difficulty, due to the Junction and Magic systems being so utterly broken. But I would still rather have just two superbosses and a bunch of other sidequests than nothing but one uninspired monster fight after another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyblade

Ultima was harder than Omega.

But, yeah, FFVIII was lacking in difficulty, due to the Junction and Magic systems being so utterly broken. But I would still rather have just two superbosses and a bunch of other sidequests than nothing but one uninspired monster fight after another.

---

How was Ultima harder than Omega? Admittedley it's been years since i played, bit if memory serves, Ultima follows the rule where his level reflects your parties average level but Omega is always level 100. Which means Ultima is easy to overpower if you aren't at max level and made the most of your junctioning.

On topic, sidequests that relate to racing, sports or card games (chocobo, blitzball and triple triad) etc do nothing for me. If i want to do those things i'll buy a game that fits that genre. I don't mind that they exist, but they more often than not are implemented into the main game and become mandetory at some point.

Thinking back, generally i only really make an effort to do sidequests that include optional bosses, unless there is a nice reward for doing something (bonus scenes for example)

FFXII's sidequests get alot of stick for being "go find said item/person" type sidequests, but i'd just like to say that i for one enjoy these quests. They encourage you to go out into the world and talk to people and explore. And often they lead to amusing scenes or boss fights which is reward enough for your time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyblade

Ultima was harder than Omega.

But, yeah, FFVIII was lacking in difficulty, due to the Junction and Magic systems being so utterly broken. But I would still rather have just two superbosses and a bunch of other sidequests than nothing but one uninspired monster fight after another.

---

How was Ultima harder than Omega? Admittedley it's been years since i played, bit if memory serves, Ultima follows the rule where his level reflects your parties average level but Omega is always level 100. Which means Ultima is easy to overpower if you aren't at max level and made the most of your junctioning.

On topic, sidequests that relate to racing, sports or card games (chocobo, blitzball and triple triad) etc do nothing for me. If i want to do those things i'll buy a game that fits that genre. I don't mind that they exist, but they more often than not are implemented into the main game and become mandetory at some point.

Thinking back, generally i only really make an effort to do sidequests that include optional bosses, unless there is a nice reward for doing something (bonus scenes for example)

FFXII's sidequests get alot of stick for being "go find said item/person" type sidequests, but i'd just like to say that i for one enjoy these quests. They encourage you to go out into the world and talk to people and explore. And often they lead to amusing scenes or boss fights which is reward enough for your time

---

True, Ultima will be lower level. He still has a higher chance of steamrolling your party. Unlike Omega, he doesn't follow a set pattern, which means you don't know exactly when to defend to block his powerful attacks. He is also far faster than Omega, and can get in several hits for each of your party's turns. It is quite possible for him to triple-cast Light Pillar (which still does 9999 damage) before your team has a chance to do much of anything.

Omega is like an Ultra Super Saiyan. Tons of power and stats, but so slow and predictable that it is easy to defeat.


XII's other sidequests were good, but they felt really incomplete. They just seemed to lack personality. The NPCs you talked to in them were bland. The writing lacked emotion. Maybe it's because all the main dialogue for the game was intended to be spoken, and the expression was meant to come through that way. Were the bit-parts originally supposed to have dialogue? Whatever the reason, the other sidequests were particularly unfulfilling for that reason.

Also, there really weren't that many sidequests besides Marks, and they were all extremely short.

I dunno about that, Ultima was a breeze, it was Omega that gave me trouble. I'm pretty conflicted when it comes to difficulty. The first run of a game I like to think a little, but after that I like a challenge. On the other hand I don't like hindering myself to create one! FFXII was neat because I could fill the license board, get to 99, etc and still have to be careful. I guess what I'm saying is, as nice as other sidequests are, I really like the marks :3