Final Fantasy XIII director speaks out against lower-than-expected review scores.

Quoted from Wikipedia:

"After release, game director Motomu Toriyama felt that the lower-than-expected review scores for a main Final Fantasy series game were as a result of reviewers approaching the game with a Western point-of-view, and that these reviewers were more used to games in which the player was given an open world in which to explore; he noted that this expectation contrasted with the vision the team set out to create, in that it "becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when you're given that much freedom."

It would've worked better if the story was actually compelling!

I like the way Yahtzee puts it: "People say I should view Fable II as a sim-type game as opposed to a RPG. So I have to change around my expectations to enjoy it. I could also view it as a frisbee; that'd make it seem pretty good."

It was something like that. Call it what you want, it's still the same boring game no matter how you slice it.

Anyway, discuss the things I said.

He's blaming the failure of his game on the fans? No sir, your game fails because it's :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

That's common reasoning by modern artists "They don't like it because they don't get it."

Anyway, I like XIII, not up there with the best but from a personal POV I like it and that's all that really matters, whether you like it.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

He's blaming the failure of his game on the fans? No sir, your game fails because it's :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

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Now we can agree on this game at least :D And you are right....this guy seems to be in denial about the game.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

He's blaming the failure of his game on the fans? No sir, your game fails because it's :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

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Now we can agree on this game at least :D And you are right....this guy seems to be in denial about the game.

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lol i'm glad we can agree on something :)

Hahahahahaha oh man. No the game got review scores lower than you are used to because people don't like this one as much, on the whole. I mean, I like it plenty, I had fun with the great majority of it, and it was a pretty solid and fun affair throughout, but I don't see how I could give it more than 8/10, which is a little under the Metacritic average last time I saw it.

I certainly don't hate it like seifer does, but I don't love it like I love X or anything either.

Whether you like the game or not, blaming lower than expected review scores on the player rather than taking a hard look at whether you could have made a game is pretty sad.

Now that's not to say reviewers and players always know what's good and what isn't. Most of the time if a company listened to a lot of their ideas on how to make a better game you'd end up with a steaming pile of crap. That doesn't mean your game is without fault though. I think it's kind of indicative of Square in general though. They could care less about any criticism and looking for ways to actually make a better game. I sometimes feel like they just design in a vacuum without ever considering if there's some valid criticism out there from fans and reviewers alike.

^ I actually think the same thing. But then again, we get FFX, then XII, and then due to backlash, XIII. It seems they do take into account fan opinion on the broad strokes, but still won't budge on the nuts and bolts of it all (assuming, of course, that XIII isn't just the way it is now because these guys have no idea how to create a compelling, creative game anymore). SE have ridiculous resources, but they allocate them into completely the wrong places - how else could FFXIII's game-world wind up so completely sterile of activity and interaction? The story and narrative are an objective mess, too. Either no one paid attention or cared, or they just assumed fans would enjoy 8-bit-quality storytelling in a cinematic HD-era game. So, yeah, Toriyama's criticism of the criticism is pathetic.

What I don't understand is what he's complaining about anyway. Most major gaming websites slapped on some pretty high of those stupid numbers. Gamespot's review in particular stands out, because the reviewer parrots out criticism regarding exactly what they know their audience will be annoyed with (Vanille) but very little else of what actually deserves to be taken apart and analyzed - the kind of things that might affect sales among the non-FF-initiated.

He want to justify linearity in this game :eep:
News: Final Fantasy XIII boss responds to review scores - ComputerAndVideoGames.com

Also, Don't read too much into Kitase' or Toriyama's comments, they were trying to "spin" everything because FF13 wasn't released at that point.
Parts of Final Fantasy XIII could have been better, admits Square

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Originally Posted by Flying Arrow

Most major gaming websites slapped on some pretty high of those stupid numbers. Gamespot's review in particular stands out, because the reviewer parrots out criticism regarding exactly what they know their audience will be annoyed with (Vanille) but very little else of what actually deserves to be taken apart and analyzed - the kind of things that might affect sales among the non-FF-initiated.

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Yup, he probably wanted 10/10 across the board. I gave up with "professional reviews" from the likes of gamespot a while back, because they seem to be scared to review properly, possibly fearing fan backlash or maybe they are just in the pocket of square or big business?

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

He's blaming the failure of his game on the fans? No sir, your game fails because it's :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

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Failure? If shipping five million and selling four million copies is failure, I'm perfectly fine with failing.

This news is old though, as in, before the game was even released outside of Japan. I agree it's a laughably stupid theory on why the game didn't get universal praise. But I strongly disagree that any game I enjoyed as much as FFXIII is crap. :D

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Originally Posted by Rad Bromance

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

He's blaming the failure of his game on the fans? No sir, your game fails because it's :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

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Failure? If shipping five million and selling four million copies is failure,

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The number of copies does not indicate quality. You could serve dog turd to the fanbase of Final Fantasy and it would still sell millions as long as it had the name/brand.

Britney Spears is hardly Led Zeppelin but sold millions. The argument doesn't work.

The best gauge is that gamespot gave it less than 9 and other magazines panned it, including edge. Also, user reviews are way down to around 7 and 8 out of 10 where usually they are 9 and 10 and the fact there seem to be far more people on forums like this criticising numerous flaws.

The bad thing about good sales is that this game type will continue to be churned out as long as people keep accepting it. That's why britney wasn't on welfare where she belonged, or why XIII wasn't a bomb, or why little pop groups that sing manufactured garbage make millions and go to number 1 frequently.

It is human stupidity as a whole that allows for it to happen.

It's also all SE cares about, money, so accept it, because you sure as hell ain't gonna change the world and the system. Even what little people you do get onto the hate-train will not change overal sales. But hey, if you think continuous ranting about the evil of XIII, SE and its money love will help, be my guest. Excuse me for not caring. Nor do I care what the director has to say about negative reviews, or about reviews in general. Nothing will change. SE will still make games, some will get negative reviews and haters, SE will comment on it and make cashloads of money and make another game. Repeat.

I'll care the day one of the haters manages to change society. Cause that's what you have to do if you don't want this situation of SE not caring because it still sells to go on. Good luck with that. Haha.

On how many levels is Toriyama wrong?

First, this game got mediocre reviews, and criticism for its linearity when it was released in Japan. The smurfing Japanese criticized this game for linearity. His argument fails there.

Second, they took a Western design philosophy to this title, one that is much appreciated by Westerners. When Toriyama & Kitase said how they were influenced by First Person Shooters and Call of Duty, everyone laughed, but it's now apparent - the statistical report after battles, the contained environments with clear objectives, even the way it seems the story was written to fit the levels instead of the other way around. Westerners generally like those things. Vince Zampella (ex-Infinity Ward) said the best stories are on rails and everyone agreed with him. Assassin's Creed II was praised by the press for taking a more linear approach with its main story. Some people are still GTA-struck, but for the most part, I believe most reviewers understand there's a place for open-world and a place for linearity. Still, FFXIII goes beyond any useful definition of linearity in a game. Dragon Quest V is linear, but it's nowhere near the level of FFXIII.

Third, how do his comments explain the widespread celebration and nearly unparalleled success of the previous Final Fantasy's? Were reviewers looking at FFVIII or IX from a "Western" perspective? The other day when Ars Technica examines FFVII as a masterpiece, or IGN puts FFX as one of the top PS2 games, are they doing so from a "Western" perspective? Because his comments make no damn sense.

This whole "Western" designation is a stereotype, and like most stereotypes, it's a shortcut to thinking. And it causes damage in the end. Wada, Toriyama, and Kitase wanted to be successful in the West, so they made/published a game based on their own stereotypes of the West. It shows how much it hurt them.

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Originally Posted by elpizo

SE will still make games, some will get negative reviews and haters, SE will comment on it and make cashloads of money

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Actually it's debatable how much money they're making. Considering how many years they developed the White Engine, only to spend extra years making in the multiplatform "Crystal Tools Engine" before actually making a game, I would doubt how profitable it has been for them.

And I agree with you that none of our bitching will change anything, but this is a forum, where we're allowed to post our opinions on things, regardless of what they'll change. Actually, I'm sure no one goes to forums looking to change things.

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It's also all SE cares about, money, so accept it,

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No thanks, that is how this game was possible, because people like you accepted mediocrity.

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because you sure as hell ain't gonna change the world and the system.

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So? That doesn't make it exempt from criticism, and nor does it mean I have to be part of it.

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Even what little people you do get onto the hate-train will not change overal sales.

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More is the pity as they are the intelligent ones. So I prefer "Intellectual Train" Thanx.

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But hey, if you think continuous ranting about the evil of XIII, SE and its money love will help, be my guest.

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Cheers, I will carry on as usual.

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Excuse me for not caring.

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I love how people go on a rant and then say "But I don't really care....err...I just had a massive rant but I don't care....honest!" haha

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Nor do I care what the director has to say about negative reviews,

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So why are you here in this thread which is entitled "Director Speaks Out"? I must say I find your logic fascinating....

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or about reviews in general. Nothing will change.

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With your attitude, definitely not.

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SE will still make games, some will get negative reviews and haters, SE will comment on it and make cashloads of money and make another game. Repeat.

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Cash loads yes, but at your expense, not mine ;)

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I'll care the day one of the haters manages to change society.

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Hater this hater that. And yes, Hitler changed society, and the world. He was certainly a hater....

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Haha

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Aimed at your own intolerance I hope?

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

When Toriyama & Kitase said how they were influenced by First Person Shooters and Call of Duty, everyone laughed, but it's now apparent - the statistical report after battles, the contained environments with clear objectives

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I won't deny that they may have been influenced by FPS games in designing a linear game, though I find it interesting that in terms of constrained levels, they completely missed how levels can be linear but still interesting from a gameplay perspective. That's probably the biggest failing with this game in terms of its linearity, they focused so much on getting the player from point A to point B for story purposes that the setting has no purpose within the gameplay except to provide a backdrop in between fights. It works in shooters because you use the environment in the gameplay; taking cover, flanking the enemy, drawing them out, etc. It fails here because it's just there for you to walk through.

So I suppose I can see the influence, but my god is it ever a twisted bastardized version of a more western genre convention than anything else.

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No thanks, that is how this game was possible, because people like you accepted mediocrity.

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People like you made X sell millions, and that was suckage incarnated. Really, not much to say here. You're just doing it as usual: I am the world, everybody thinks like me and whoever doesn't is a loser I'll piss on. *nods*

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So? That doesn't make it exempt from criticism, and nor does it mean I have to be part of it.

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Seeing as it won't change anything, and people are already quite aware of your opinion, I fail to see the need to keep repeating yourself. If you're waiting for me to change my opinion to one that matches the great Seifer's, save yourself the trouble.

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More is the pity as they are the intelligent ones. So I prefer "Intellectual Train" Thanx.

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Haha. I'm on the intellectual train, then, too. I hate X. You're just a blind sheep following the rest with praise for X. See what I did here? Of course you didn't. :greenie:

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Cheers, I will carry on as usual.

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Well, if you like doing this more than seeking a game you enjoy...

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I love how people go on a rant and then say "But I don't really care....err...I just had a massive rant but I don't care....honest!" haha

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A massive rant, where? And I don't care, really. But hey, if you can waste your time, why can't I do the same? You think you're the only one allowed to do that? There's enough time to be wasted, we can share. Don't be so greedy.

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So why are you here in this thread which is entitled "Director Speaks Out"? I must say I find your logic fascinating....

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Same as you, share my opinion, my opinion may be that I don't care, but it's still an opinion. I know you tend to think others don't have own opinions, but please, do your best for once to understand that everybody, in fact, does. And at least I am fascinating. You, however, failed to be as soon as all your posts contained the same: "RAWR XIII EVIL RAWR SE EVIL RAWR I ALONE AM GOOD RAWR THE REST ARE LOSERS!".

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With your attitude, definitely not.

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Pot, meet kettle. All you do is rant on internet forums about how evil XIII is and SE is. Tell me again, how is that gonna change anything? Oh, right, you're not out to change anything. You just want to rant and spit out your XIII and SE hate again and again and again. Sorry, my mistake for forgetting.

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Cash loads yes, but at your expense, not mine

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Depends if I buy every game SE brings out, no? Last I checked, I didn't. Yes, I know it's shocking that somebody can be not a sheep and still buy XIII, but that's what you get for not understanding others have different tastes and opinions. :)

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Hater this hater that. And yes, Hitler changed society, and the world. He was certainly a hater....

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Proof that haters like you are good for nothing. If I wanted to hear negative things about things I like, I'll look at critics. Biased as they may be, at least they've played the games, and don't repeat the same things in every post all over the internet.

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Aimed at your own intolerance I hope?

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Surely you are joking? Pot, meet kettle, again. Don't know if you've noticed, but you're, like, intolerance against people who like XIII in the flesh. You may say "woo, go me!", but it's really not something to be proud of. It's pitiful. Not that you care, but hey, we both have time to waste, apparently.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

When Toriyama & Kitase said how they were influenced by First Person Shooters and Call of Duty, everyone laughed, but it's now apparent - the statistical report after battles, the contained environments with clear objectives

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I won't deny that they may have been influenced by FPS games in designing a linear game, though I find it interesting that in terms of constrained levels, they completely missed how levels can be linear but still interesting from a gameplay perspective. That's probably the biggest failing with this game in terms of its linearity, they focused so much on getting the player from point A to point B for story purposes that the setting has no purpose within the gameplay except to provide a backdrop in between fights. It works in shooters because you use the environment in the gameplay; taking cover, flanking the enemy, drawing them out, etc. It fails here because it's just there for you to walk through.

So I suppose I can see the influence, but my god is it ever a twisted bastardized version of a more western genre convention than anything else.

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Agreed.

or the intelligent ones claim.

I never would claim to being a fan of something denotes intelligence..or being a critic of something denotes it either.

It's opinion.

Being a fan means you are a fanatic. If you are a true fan of something you see the good..or what you sincerely believe is good and you ignore the bad.The inept and the incompetent.
Goes with the territory.

There are great games that could have been better....and people can find where that could be true.
and there are fans of so called bad games.

It's still opinion.

Like I have said before..people who like a game, be it FFVII, FFX, FFXII, FFXIII, any FF...won't be persuaded by an arguments to the the contrary.They won't suddenly dislike a game they love no matter what someone else says.If Sakaguichi came out tomorrow and said FFXIII is flawed and here's why and listed his reasons for disliking the game..the fans that like it wouldn't believe it and would still like it.
If Matuno came out tomorrow and said FFXII was incomplete and apologized for what he says are the game's weaknesses and misteps...the fans of FFXII wouldn't believe it and would still say FFXII is a great game.

So getting out of kelter, acting all righteous either in defense of an FF game or attacking the alleged flaws in an FF game..doing all that and getting your blood presure up serves no useful purpose.It won't change anyone's mind.

If you like FFXIII that should be fine...if you don't like it the fact others do may seem perplexing to you but there's nothing you can do to change their minds.
Same with any previous FF game you might like or dislike.The people on the other side won't change. There's absolutely nothing you can do to peruade them to change or to force them to.

So we'll wait and see what Agito and Verses have in store for us.Likely, more disagreements and more controversy.It never ends.:D

Well I won't be buying them, and I hope people with more sense than Elpizo really delve deep into reviews and youtube before they shell out :P

If everybody had my kind of sense, they'd buy only 1 game every year, like I do. And then SE wouldn't get much cash. Kinda like how you want it to be. Don't assume you know my buying habbits just because I bought XIII. There's more to a person than the fact if they did or didn't buy XIII, as impossible as that may sound to you.

Also, you seem to think I bought XIII blindly. Again with the assumptions. I've followed the game quite closely during its development, watched plenty of youtube videos for the story (priority for me in a FF game) and liked what I saw, so I bought it. I in general don't listen to reviews, but I do prefer reading them for negativity than reading hundreds of post by one hater grabbing every chance he can get to bash XIII.

The only time I didn't inform myself enough was when I bought X. But that's because a close friend of mine was constantly raving about how good the game was and how he had more than 200 hours on it, so I thought: "Why not?". Mistake of a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

If Matuno came out tomorrow and said FFXII was incomplete and apologized for what he says are the game's weaknesses and misteps...the fans of FFXII wouldn't believe it and would still say FFXII is a great game.

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Actually I would probably agree with everything he said (if he says what you and I expect him to), but still like FFXII as one of my favorite PS2 games!

Very thoughtful post overall, Wolf, I think what we get most out of it is to EVERYBODY CHILL OUT!!!

Oh, wait, seems things are already more civil, I'm too late :(

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasay2

Well I won't be buying them, and I hope people with more sense than Elpizo really delve deep into reviews and youtube before they shell out :P

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What if they end up being good? Apparently Versus has an Airship you can fly around on a World Map!! That alone already makes it a better game than FFXIII to me.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

More is the pity as they are the intelligent ones. So I prefer "Intellectual Train" Thanx.

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Listen buddy, although I don't disagree with all of your points on FF games (such as some in XIII and XII) I hate the way you take the superior ground. As if anyone who dares have another view on the game is inferior. Whatever way you look at it, how good a game is is a matter of opinion.
For the most part, I enjoyed XIII. Am I not intelligent for thinking that? Am I stupid? Seriously dude, it's one thing to piss on someone's opinion but it's a whole other situation to actually question someones intelligence when it comes to game opinions.

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Originally Posted by Crop

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

More is the pity as they are the intelligent ones. So I prefer "Intellectual Train" Thanx.

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Listen buddy, although I don't disagree with all of your points on FF games (such as some in XIII and XII) I hate the way you take the superior ground. As if anyone who dares have another view on the game is inferior. Whatever way you look at it, how good a game is is a matter of opinion.
For the most part, I enjoyed XIII. Am I not intelligent for thinking that? Am I stupid? Seriously dude, it's one thing to piss on someone's opinion but it's a whole other situation to actually question someones intelligence when it comes to game opinions.

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Funny, i was just thinking this too

Cry me a river, if someone is trying to say we are on "A hate train" they deserve anything that is coming in response

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Am I not intelligent for thinking that?

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I do wonder, actually. Certainly lacking logic...of that I have no doubt.

:D

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Cry me a river, if someone is trying to say we are on "A hate train" they deserve anything that is coming in response

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Am I not intelligent for thinking that?

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I do wonder, actually. Certainly lacking logic...of that I have no doubt.

:D

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And yet I deserved that response? Completely proves my point. You not liking FFXIII is your opinion, it doesn't make you more logical.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Cry me a river, if someone is trying to say we are on "A hate train" they deserve anything that is coming in response

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Kinda like you saying the rest of us are all on a "blindly follow SE" train? :roll2

We're dealing with an obvious troll here, people, let's move on.

I think everything that I could've said has already been said. Look at my sig. And I'm not ashamed of it lol because no one should be considered less intelligent or shameful because of their likes and dislikes in video games, music, food, anything. It's opinion. Get over it. And no one's is superior to anyone else's...so seriously if you're only goal is to get on the forums and argue with people about how their opinions differ from your own and try to change them, you're seriously wasting your time. while these forums are here to post your opinions, they're not here for you to piss on everyone else's.

Opinions are like ..well colons..we all all have them.

as any gastro doc can tell you...rotfl....

I am disappointed in the excuses from the FFXIII directors and developers.We couldn't do this and we couldn't do that.
I feel they could have..if they had been willing to seek assistance from the right people.:mad:

I do agree with a lot of seifer's opinions about the games although I feel he's somewhat too dogmatic in the way he expresses them.

As far as gamers are concerned..we are all human with different opinions and varied taste and concepts about what an rpg is and what makes a good rpg.
Our opinions of those subjects differ and are subjective and not objective in any sense.Nor can we define in any objective sense what makes a good rpg or what criteria it should be judged by.
Our views differ in many respects.

So to lose our cool and to be derogatory towards each other would be devisive, pointless and counterproductive to this forum..:tongue:

shrugs...

so just relax...

Before we know it we'll be seeing more about Agito and Verses and we can discuss those.I hope in a more civil fashion.;)

Just throwing out that Toriyama was probably referring to RPG's when he mentioned a Western point-of-view, ala Oblivion, Baldur's Gate, Fallout, etc. That's how I took it at least. I don't necessarily agree with him on it, but he's basically doing PR damage control here it seems.

Oh, and read pretentious, ad hominem-laden arguments about FFXIII is fun.

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Originally Posted by Rase

Just throwing out that Toriyama was probably referring to RPG's when he mentioned a Western point-of-view, ala Oblivion, Baldur's Gate, Fallout, etc. That's how I took it at least. I don't necessarily agree with him on it, but he's basically doing PR damage control here it seems.

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Like I said in my post, that doesn't account for the widespread acclaim the older games received when they were released nor the reverence they're still shown today.

Maybe the climate for reviewing new games has changed. I might agree with that. Actually I totally 100% agree with that and could go on for pages about how it's ruining gaming.

But I won't.

SE's fame is at the same time its downfall. Because of this people expect every new game they bring out to be an absolute revolution in gaming history that will smack everybody with things never seen before and stun the world. Expectations are set incredibly high, and naturally, lead to disappointment. If XIII had been released as it is by an unknown company, it would probably be seen as a decent RPG worth looking into for RPG fans.

But because it is made by SE and carries the Final Fantasy name, one can only love or hate the game. It is absolutely forbidden to be in between. At least, it seems that way to me. Actually, a bad Final Fantasy title that dissapoints the whole world would be a good thing to happen for SE. It'll crush hope in a new one, and perhaps then the expectations for the next one (if SE would make one) would be more reasonable.

SE adding to the hype of course doesn't help much. I think they dug a bit of a hole for XIII when they claimed it would be revolutionary like VII. Well, I suppose it's only logical that after four years of teasing and hyping the game could only disappoint.

Not that it disappointed me, but ah, I'm just a mindless SE sheep buying every game of them on sight without looking into it first. :roll2

Wow, this director sounds like a d-bag and the more and more I hear about this game the less interested I am, but since I need a new game to play this month I will probably still get it. I was hoping the series would get better after Final Fantasy 12, but it seems like it's just been continuously decreasing in quality since FF X-2. I'd rather Square make updated versions of the older Final Fantasies than new ones that suck.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Like I said in my post, that doesn't account for the widespread acclaim the older games received when they were released nor the reverence they're still shown today.

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Well there was lack of Western RPG's on consoles at those times, so the only comparison for a JRPG for console gamers was other JRPG's. I didn't play a PC RPG until Baldur's Gate, and that came free with the computer we got. The acclaim could very well have been by people who either never played Western PC RPG's or just knew that mentioning them to their audiences would be a lost cause. Again, not saying I agree with him or think he's right in his claims, just trying to see where the hell he's coming from.

Final Fantasy sells 5.5 million, Arkham Asylum commits 3.24 million - News at GameSpot

oh well...

FFXIII sells 5.5 million units worldwide...

oh well...:greenie:

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

SE's fame is at the same time its downfall. Because of this people expect every new game they bring out to be an absolute revolution in gaming history that will smack everybody with things never seen before and stun the world.

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I expected a decent story and decent gameplay, not a linear alley for 90% of the game and AI characters....

In short I expected we wouldn't be going backwards. I didn't expect anything revolutionary, but even FF1 got the basics right....this didn't.

If you mean the remakes of FF I, I would agree, but if you mean the original NES version, no. That one is neigh unplayable these days, and I'd pick XIII over it any day. (The only FF on the NES still playable is III, IMHO, and that's still one of the best games ever made. That was the first game to really get the basics right when it comes to gameplay. Auto-target after enemy death is the greatest invention the series has ever seen.) Otherwise, I admit that I had more fun with 1 when I played it for the first time (that was the DoS version), without any guide whatsoever. Finding out where you had to go never really got old, though I wouldn't say no to a more developed story. Because really, 1 has next to none. There's 3 important scenes you have to witness: the prologue, Garland and Chaos. That's pretty much it.

For one to plough through XIII, it really depends on if you like the story or not. I liked it enough to bear with the linearity. Would I have said no to more variety in the layouts of dungeons, like in XII? No. But I've played worse, so I'm not complaining much. XIII did what it had to do for me: keep me entertained to run through the whole game. Chances that I'll replay it, however, are slim. I've seen the story once, and a second run won't be as entertaining. You could say XIII has the worst replayability of the series. Aside from perhaps IV, since that game too has little else but the story and characters will always develop in the same way.

Yes FF1 is neigh unplayable, and so is XIII. I didn't say FF1 was better than XIII. I said

XIII has gone backwards

FF1 at least got the basics right.

FF1 had conventional towns, a proper engaging battle system and real RPG mechanics, choosable characters, fully customisable. XIII did not.

FF1 was made in the 1980's and it has still managed to get more right than a game on 50 GB blu ray discs with CPU power coming out of its ass.

The reason XIII is getting panned by a lot of people has nothing at all to do with expectations. We only expected that it would be as good as VII-FFX, you know those games released years ago. And it wasn't close.

Let's stay on topic, which is the creator's reaction to negative reviews, and not give negative reviews of our own. Thanks.

I think it's sad that Toriyama is not open to more criticism. Not everyone is going to like his game, especially since it is so different from what we're used to in the FF series. By not listening to critics and fans he is closing doors to possible improvements he can make on his next attempt.

I'm sure he thinks his game is a 10/10 because he made it, but that doesn't mean everyone else will think so. If the reaction to FFXIII is overwhelmingly negative (not saying it is, but there is a lot of negative reaction out there) then maybe it's his design that needs adjusting and not our thinking. I hope he comes out of his arrogance because there are plenty of great things in this game and with the right amount of tweaking he could probably make an amazing game.

I am happy things have calmed down.

I was afraid a mod was going to lay the smack down..rotfl...

Western style rpgs have sadly surpassed Final Fantasy.

How long has Toriyama been there ? At Square ?
With Sakaguichi and Matsuno gone I guess he feels he's the big cheese still left standing...and that's why he's so arrogant.

Maybe he would be happier just making a game for a Japanese audience.
Maybe making a game that has to appeal to westerners..who also are exposed to games like Mass Effect...the GTA games, Fallout, etc etc etc..maybe competing with them has gotten too hard.
Maybe what Japanese fans like no longer jives with what experienced western rpg fans like.

Hope that isn't true but maybe it is.

Western fans are more sophisticated and have more rpg choices than they have in the past.

This silly western game, Red Dead Redemption or whatever it is called.It's an rpg.It got good reviews from what I have heard.
The characters are more mature than what you generally see in a FF for example, the plots more complex, more to do even though the game is also allegedly linear. But the reviews I read didn't seem to mind that.

Maybe Toriyama and Kitase can learn something from western style rpgs..if they want to.:roll2

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

I am happy things have calmed down.

I was afraid a mod was going to lay the smack down..rotfl...

Western style rpgs have sadly surpassed Final Fantasy.

How long has Toriyama been there ? At Square ?
With Sakaguichi and Matsuno gone I guess he feels he's the big cheese still left standing...and that's why he's so arrogant.

Maybe he would be happier just making a game for a Japanese audience.
Maybe making a game that has to appeal to westerners..who also are exposed to games like Mass Effect...the GTA games, Fallout, etc etc etc..maybe competing with them has gotten too hard.
Maybe what Japanese fans like no longer jives with what experienced western rpg fans like.

Hope that isn't true but maybe it is.

Western fans are more sophisticated and have more rpg choices than they have in the past.

This silly western game, Red Dead Redemption or whatever it is called.It's an rpg.It got good reviews from what I have heard.
The characters are more mature than what you generally see in a FF for example, the plots more complex, more to do even though the game is also allegedly linear. But the reviews I read didn't seem to mind that.

Maybe Toriyama and Kitase can learn something from western style rpgs..if they want to.:roll2

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Toriyama, Kitase, and pretty much everyone at Square Enix have been trying to learn from Western RPG's and all we've gotten are mediocre games for the last 3 years.

Second, saying WRPG's have surpassed Final Fantasy is a big statement. Do you mean WRPG's today have surpassed the legacy FF has or do you simply mean that WRPG's made today are better than FF's made today?

In either case, it's a value judgment, but WRPG's today are having all of their 'RPG' aspects gutted and made into shooters or action games, even Fable III is now being considered revamped into an action game. To say they've done anything in some kind of progression, except for the resolution of their graphics, is something I would disagree with.

And Toriyama's not the only big cheese left standing. First of all, Sakaguchi was a business man. The real originators of Final Fantasy are Hiromichi Tanaka and Koichi Ishi, who left the series after FFIV to create the Seiken Densetsu ((x) of Mana) games. At this point, people like Kitase, Nomura, and soon after Toriyama would step in to take over the franchise. Tanaka is still at Square - he's a studio head and works on the MMO's (XI and XIV). Akitoshi Kawazu is another prominent developer who's still there, he directed FFII, replaced Matsuno as producer of XII and oversaw The Last Remnant as his last game (mediocre title due to, guess what, trying to appeal to Westerners). I know that's a lot of random Japanese names, but the one I'm really looking forward to his next game is Hiroyuki Ito. He co-directed FFV, VI, and XII, directed IX, and worked on the battle system on nearly all of the post-FFIII games, including Tactics. He's a genius when it comes to battle systems (he invented ATB) and is someone I personally wish I heard more of what he's working on.

For those with attention deficiency disorders, here is a summarized snippet of the general ramblings for you to ponder over -

Western RPG's suck.

Doesn't mean that you don't have developers who are trying to cut corners or who have absurd notions , making shooters or Halo wannabes and making garbage.
You do have those.
But you also have good developers.

If you could ressurect Black Isle you would see what I mean.

I don't agree that the FF developers are trying to westernize the FFs at all. I don't see that at all. I see them sticking with what they see as traditional Japanese rpg style but then trying to cut corners as we saw in FFXIII because they felt it was too hard to put the traditional rpgs elements in.

shrugs.

Disagree if you want to.

The fact they sold 5.5 million games means Square has no incentive to change or try to improve although I have a gut feeling we will see towns in FFV, more minigames and more npcs.I feel the fact the director is speaking out means he is sensitive to the criticism.:tongue:

Pardon me for asking, ANGRYWOLF, but isn't FFV kinda already long made? 0_o"

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Pardon me for asking, ANGRYWOLF, but isn't FFV kinda already long made? 0_o"

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I take a wild guess that he meant FFXV :)

I thought the Last Remnant's had a very solid and traditional JRPG foundation, it just didn't receive the love it deserved. (From a development team.) The concept had so much potential, it just fell way short of what it could have been.

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If XIII had been released as it is by an unknown company, it would probably be seen as a decent RPG worth looking into for RPG fans.

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I agree. FFXIII was a massive disappointment for me because it was an FF title. As a stand alone game I would have considered it decent middle of the road title. You can say it isn't fair to rate a game like this, but was it fair to all the other games I chose to buy it over because of franchise history?

They really need another name for 'JRPG', as I doubt that one will ever catch on mainstream. The sooner the two styles can split the sheets and have their own identity the better. And it doesn't confine each to a geographic location.

It´s funny that they said that considering past FF´s were non linear.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Pardon me for asking, ANGRYWOLF, but isn't FFV kinda already long made? 0_o"

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I take a wild guess that he meant FFXV :)

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must have been a typo..:greenie:

By then we can only hope that Square has resolved it's difficulties and we will have the things in it they left out of FFXIII.

SE were capable of making FFXII and FFXIII. Individually, these games were seen by a lot of people as sub-par. But if you think about it, for the most part the flaws of one game are strengths in the other. With this in mind, I still hold a lot of hope that they will be able to balance the various areas (eg. Characters from XIII, maps somewhere between XII and XIII, gameplay from XII, etc.) to create a fantastic RPG. Having said that, I still enjoyed both games for their respective strengths despite not enjoying them as much as I enjoyed VII and VIII.

Hope they do that with versus.

We can only do just that: Hope. :)

Estheim:)

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

\
I don't agree that the FF developers are trying to westernize the FFs at all. I don't see that at all.

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Just because they haven't succeeded doesn't mean they haven't been trying to do this. I've already pointed out the interview where Toriyama and Kitase said they took elements from FPS & CoD, and Vivi22 discussed how trying to use Western elements really caused a lot of problems in FFXIII.

One of the earliest attempts at Westernizing Final Fantasy took place in a game you dislike very much: Final Fantasy XII (<- search for western in the interview).

The Gambit system in XII is based off of Bioware's combat system present in KoTOR and Dragon Age. They've even discussed how the exploration focus is inspired from WRPG's. Many have pointed out that XII is essentially an MMORPG you never log online with.

I've already brought up The Last Remnant, which was also developed with Western audiences in mind, even with the art style. So basically, SE has been trying to do exactly what you're calling on them to do now: Westernize their games. And the results have been mixed, to say the least.

Can I ask exactly what it is you think they should borrow from Western developers? What do you think makes those games good or at least worthy of emulation?

Black Isle did before it went under...

Black Isle Studios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am a very big fan of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 and I believe those games have elements that could be incorporated into FF.

shrugs.

I am skeptical of claims Square is making about incorporating western elements into their games. I have never played FPS or COD, or the Last Remnant for that matter... so I can't address any alleged similarities or westernizing of Japanese role playing games.

As for FFXII that game's problems stem from Matsuno's abrupt departure before the game was finished and incompetence by his replacement and not imo from any alleged westernizing of the game.That my opinion about it.

I have never played kotor either. I never said I was against the gambit system although some people are. They can tell you what they have against it.

shrugs.

Poor character and plot developement seems to be plaguing Square right now..as well as their leaving out traditional rpg elements in FFXIII because they claim it was too hard for them to incorporate them into the game.

While superior graphics are good an rpg cannot be graphics alone.

Seipher did a good job in the flaw thread as well as in other pointing things out..smile...so I hope he doesn't mind if I just refer you to his previous posts ;)..smile....and let it rest at that....

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Black Isle did before it went under...

Black Isle Studios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am a very big fan of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 and I believe those games have elements that could be incorporated into FF.

shrugs.

I am skeptical of claims Square is making about incorporating western elements into their games. I have never played FPS or COD, or the Last Remnant for that matter... so I can't address any alleged similarities or westernizing of Japanese role playing games.

As for FFXII that game's problems stem from Matsuno's abrupt departure before the game was finished and incompetence by his replacement and not imo from any alleged westernizing of the game.That my opinion about it.

I have never played kotor either. I never said I was against the gambit system although some people are. They can tell you what they have against it.

shrugs.

Poor character and plot developement seems to be plaguing Square right now..as well as their leaving out traditional rpg elements in FFXIII because they claim it was too hard for them to incorporate them into the game.

While superior graphics are good an rpg cannot be graphics alone.

Seipher did a good job in the flaw thread as well as in other pointing things out..smile...so I hope he doesn't mind if I just refer you to his previous posts ;)..smile....and let it rest at that....

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I'm not addressing whether the games are good or bad. Only suggesting that Square's been doing what you've called for, for years now, and it hasn't had any big impact.

I've seen most of FFXIII (and don't want to check the flaw thread for spoilers :( ), and it undoubtedly has some base problems in its storytelling. But those problems are apart of a broader lack of polish and focus, of which is also them adopting an actioney-corridor approach, taken from FPS games, leading to a harsh separation of story-segments and combat segments.

They basically made a tradeoff, ditching town-investigation while making this strange bastard action-game. Which was a part of a broad initiative to make this game appeal to Western audiences.

Muh, for the next game (if it should ever happen) they should start off completely blank, and actually ask us what we want. I mean if they had made a website asking ideas from the players, along with ideas from the development team, they could really improve on the game.

Anyway quick side note, are Mistwalker planning on releasing any games anytime soon ;)

Yup, Xenoblade.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Black Isle did before it went under...

Black Isle Studios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am a very big fan of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 and I believe those games have elements that could be incorporated into FF.

shrugs.

I am skeptical of claims Square is making about incorporating western elements into their games. I have never played FPS or COD, or the Last Remnant for that matter... so I can't address any alleged similarities or westernizing of Japanese role playing games.

As for FFXII that game's problems stem from Matsuno's abrupt departure before the game was finished and incompetence by his replacement and not imo from any alleged westernizing of the game.That my opinion about it.

I have never played kotor either. I never said I was against the gambit system although some people are. They can tell you what they have against it.

shrugs.

Poor character and plot developement seems to be plaguing Square right now..as well as their leaving out traditional rpg elements in FFXIII because they claim it was too hard for them to incorporate them into the game.

While superior graphics are good an rpg cannot be graphics alone.

Seipher did a good job in the flaw thread as well as in other pointing things out..smile...so I hope he doesn't mind if I just refer you to his previous posts ;)..smile....and let it rest at that....

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I'm not addressing whether the games are good or bad. Only suggesting that Square's been doing what you've called for, for years now, and it hasn't had any big impact.

I've seen most of FFXIII (and don't want to check the flaw thread for spoilers :( ), and it undoubtedly has some base problems in its storytelling. But those problems are apart of a broader lack of polish and focus, of which is also them adopting an actioney-corridor approach, taken from FPS games, leading to a harsh separation of story-segments and combat segments.

They basically made a tradeoff, ditching town-investigation while making this strange bastard action-game. Which was a part of a broad initiative to make this game appeal to Western audiences.

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doesn't make it factual....

Certainly no one who has played Baldur's Gate for example can say the recent FF games emulate them in any way.....
There's a lot of npc interaction in those games as well as towns and exploration, something lacking in FFXIII that's for sure...
There are sidequests that involve fighting in the Baldur games but you get something meaningful for completing the quest...as we know we didn't get much for our efforts in FFXII.
So I don't buy those claims you seem to want to point out and take at face value.

There is a certain segment that will buy any FF game on name alone as someone else pointed out....as well as a certain segment who will buy because of tradition/nostalgia reasons.You risk alienating those folks if you leave out too many traditional elements of the game in some shallow/vapid appeal to try to get new players who you think like FPSs such as halo and the war games. Although they aka Square seems to have botched any such appeal to such an extent you can't see any meaningful change.
I am more inclined to believe such changes are due to cost cutting/departures of seasoned RPG staff and attempts to make games on the cheap as opposed to any real attempt to make a game more western to attract western players.:mad:

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Originally Posted by Rozaheku

Yup, Xenoblade.

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That's Monolith Soft, not Mistwalker. Mistwalker is releasing "The Last Story."

Anyways, I haven't played XIII yet. Despite hearing all the reviews that is was subpar or whatnot, as a fan of FF, I still want to give it a shot. I have yet to come across an FF game that I can truly say that "I hate it." Sure, there are some FFs that I like more than others, but I don't really hate any of them. Judging by the screenshots and video that I have seen, it looks like a game that I will really like. But like I said, I haven't played it yet, so who knows, I may like it or I may not. I'm just gonna have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by ChickenHeart

Muh, for the next game (if it should ever happen) they should start off completely blank, and actually ask us what we want. I mean if they had made a website asking ideas from the players, along with ideas from the development team, they could really improve on the game.

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Or totally ruin any hope of said game being original or good. I highly doubt the Final Fantasy fanbase could come anywhere close to agreeing on what the next FF should be, and even if they could I personally would rather not see this game. The designers and developers need to make the game that they want, not what others want.

If SE would ask the fanbase what they want in the next FF we'll just get another FF VII. I'll pass, thanks.

When SE decided to 'give the fans what they want' we got the FFVII compilation, which even the majority of FFVII fans weren't overly impressed with. In general players are like children, if you just give them everything they claim to want the results don't end well.

Nuh uh! FF7 was ok i just personally don't really see how lots of people see it as the best, oh well, i guess you're right though.

@Rase
i see your point, but we've let the developers decided for a while now, and in my own personal opinion, the newer games are lacking in all RPG departments, i think it'd be a good idea just for them to see what made the older games what they were, at least that. Also when has SE being orginal :D Typical characters, typical vilians, meh.

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Originally Posted by ChickenHeart

Nuh uh! FF7 was ok i just personally don't really see how lots of people see it as the best, oh well, i guess you're right though.

@Rase
i see your point, but we've let the developers decided for a while now, and in my own personal opinion, the newer games are lacking in all RPG departments, i think it'd be a good idea just for them to see what made the older games what they were, at least that. Also when has SE being orginal :D Typical characters, typical vilians, meh.

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It wouldn't surprise me if FFXIII was a direct result of all the negetive critisism FFXII got, seeing as the two are 100% complete opposites in every single way. Which would mean that SE have been listening to the fans. From what i can see (and the topic this thread is in relation to proves this point very well) SE are just awful at taking critisism, which as far as i can tell is the dominating factor in how the next FF will look. Fans wanted the return to a medieval setting with more classic FF elements and they got FFIX, fans complained at the lack of story and character develpment and the extreme level of exploration in XII, and we got FFXIII. SE should just stop listening to the fans and get back to what they're good at instead of trying to please everyone.

I think it was a combination of laziness, arrogance, incompetence and technical challenges they didn't try very hard to solve.:roll2

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by ChickenHeart

Nuh uh! FF7 was ok i just personally don't really see how lots of people see it as the best, oh well, i guess you're right though.

@Rase
i see your point, but we've let the developers decided for a while now, and in my own personal opinion, the newer games are lacking in all RPG departments, i think it'd be a good idea just for them to see what made the older games what they were, at least that. Also when has SE being orginal :D Typical characters, typical vilians, meh.

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It wouldn't surprise me if FFXIII was a direct result of all the negetive critisism FFXII got, seeing as the two are 100% complete opposites in every single way. Which would mean that SE have been listening to the fans. From what i can see (and the topic this thread is in relation to proves this point very well) SE are just awful at taking critisism, which as far as i can tell is the dominating factor in how the next FF will look. Fans wanted the return to a medieval setting with more classic FF elements and they got FFIX, fans complained at the lack of story and character develpment and the extreme level of exploration in XII, and we got FFXIII. SE should just stop listening to the fans and get back to what they're good at instead of trying to please everyone.

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I don't know if they necessarily should stop listening to fans. They just need to stop trying to give everyone what they want, or they at least need to do better at being critical with the criticism directed at them. What I mean is, with the recent FF series, SE have this tendency of going to extremes trying to please clamoring fans. Games can be less open than XII, but they don't need to be as restrictive as XIII either. In other words, don't ask SE to turn the heat up when you feel a chill, because they'll pull a flame thrower on your ass.

I agree with the folks from both sides of the river. Lets consider what we'd have our hands on barring the "Final Fantasy" title: a somewhat generic yet wittingly innovative game title that holds a "pizzazz" in its own right. Only once I accepted its true fate as an integrated title was I able to enjoy playing it for what it was, not for what I wanted it to be. Standing alone the game possesses beautifully rendered characters with a sleek production value. Although what game producers have yet to understand is: graphics do not make a game!!! Look back at FFVII now! Regardless of how awkward it appears I will stake a bet that most of you welled up when Aerith was floored faster than Pam Anderson at a Motley concert (c'mon admit it!). Its something buried within the Final Fantasy feel that is all to real yet remains intangible. This Fantasy Flavor has little to do with the countenanced confusion over how much to guilt the ever-present desire to show Vanille your throbbing semen elevator. Maybe one of these days we can get Square and Bioware to have little video game babies. No matter the changes that come following our fanboy fury let's all hope that we still have more Final Fantasies to look forward to-even if they are polished turds.