Seifer and Squall are brothers

1) Seifer copied Dad's (Laguna) attacking style in his sword form.

2) Seifer and Squall both use swords. They both have facial scars. This proves that thier genes were designed in the same way by their parents.

3) Seifer and Squall dislike each other for selfish reasons. About the same dislikement Squall has for Ultimecia. Ironic, eh? Quite common in brotherships. Think about it, Zell is annoying just like Seifer, but yet Squall hates Seifer more.

4) Seifer and Rinoa were in a relationship. This proves that Squall and Seifer have the same taste for women.

5) Seifer had a childhood dream, who says Squall didn't? Squall was shy and insecure, so of course he won't express himself fully...

6) Squall and Seifer both have similar facials; thier mouths, eyes, jaws, and eyebrows. Except thier hairs... but I believe that Seifer dyed his hair blonde (yes, even in his youthhood!)

7) There may be some preposterous claims made by Kiros/Ward that Squall looks like Laguna. But if he mentioned Seifer, it wouldn't make sense, right? Why would a friend mention an enemy's name when it's relevant? We beaten Seifer.. and go like "You and Seifer just look like Laguna..." Anyways, if there's no hardcore evidence within the game that Squall is actually Laguna's son, then the same goes for Seifer. The concept of Squall being Laguna's son was born from a hint. Keyword: hint!

8) The last names of Seifer and Squall may not match, but who says one can't change his name? As far as I know, it's legal to change your name under the age of 18... in a game such as VIII..

Hmm, interesting. I sometimes wondered why Ultimecia chose to use Seifer as her main puppet. I mean, why didn't Ultimecia possess someone bigger like Ward? Imagine beating a possessed Ward..
But consider the acknowledgement of a brothership conflict. I believe that that would help Ultimecia succeed effectively... far more effective than possessing a guy like Ward.

Uh huh, Ultimecia didn't possess Seifer because he was confused in his unpossessed form.

Serapy you're so wrong you don't even know how wrong you are. I'll address each point in this personally.

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1) Seifer copied Dad's (Laguna) attacking style in his sword form.

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Seifer had a dream to be a sorceresses knight. His favourite book and films concerned this. Laguna starred in a movie which was to do with the sorceresses knight subject. In the film he played a Sorceresses Knight and used a gunblade. During the course of filming he is supposed to be attacked by Kiros and Ward as a ruby dragon. A real one attacks instead and Laguna is forced to duel it with the gunblade in his hand. We know this because the player themselves controls the duel with the ruby dragon. As for Seifer and the dream, look in the messages from garden and pay attention in Dollet. Seifer was not copying his father, he was copying Laguna's acting the role of a sorceresses knight.

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2) Seifer and Squall both use swords. They both have facial scars. This proves that thier genes were designed in the same way by their parents.

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Swords are common enough, the entire Gabaldian army uses them with exception of officers and from the looks of it, Laguna, Kiros and Ward. Does that make every Gabaldian Soldier in the game the brother of every other soldier in the game? I doubt it and if it did, I'd feel sorry for the entire armies mother. Not to mention I'd feel sorry for the man/men who had to then go and have sex with that woman because well her vagina would be like the grand canyon. They both utilize the same weapon, this is probably to do with how much ability they showed with the weapon and also to do with their hate for each other making them desire to be simply better than the other with the same weapon an "Anything you can do, I can do better" situation. As for facial scarring, did you not watch the intro FMV? They have facial scars because Seifer is a dick who decided to make his point rather vividly that he had Squall because he cheated by casting fire at him, cutting his face is like saying "hey dumbass, you're dead...next time expect everything including people fighting dirty" Squall obviously pissed as hell about this decides well screw you because if you hadn't cheated I'd have gotten you so as Seifer gloats he attacks him and repays the favour cue two facial scars. If you don't believe that there is likely to be a scar when you're cut with a gunblade by all means go get a kitchen knife and carve a line across your own face and it'll prove to you that yes, knives scar and so would swords/gunblades which for all essential intents and purposes are bigger knives. No ones parents genetically plan their children out. Humans are a 25% random chance factor of their parents genetics which in turn are 25% random chance of their grand parents. For an example of this, I am around 6ft tall most of my family including my aunts, uncles, cousins, mother, grandfather, brother, sister are all short. My grandmother was 6'2" tall I had a 1 in 8 chance of getting that genetic code to become tall. Everyone else in my family didn't I did was that genetically planned? No it was not it was random chance.

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3) Seifer and Squall dislike each other for selfish reasons. About the same dislikement Squall has for Ultimecia. Ironic, eh? Quite common in brotherships. Think about it, Zell is annoying just like Seifer, but yet Squall hates Seifer more.

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Squall and Seifer do dislike each other for selfish reasons this is true. Their reasons are personal their outlooks on life clash. Seifer is very aggressive in his actions, very impatient and so on. A perfect explanation is noticed by the eagle eyed player. During the intro to the game Seifer blasts Squall with a fire spell. Squall as he is hit is attempting to cast Blizzard going by the colour of the build up of magic. However a better and more concrete example that Seifer = Fire Squall = Ice is simply when asked to demonstrate something cool by the younger students near the classroom in an event that gets your SeeD rank dropped by one you can cast them a magic spell. The spell Squall chooses to cast is Blizzard. Fire and Ice in FF8 are opposing elements, much like Squall and Seifer are opposing sides of the same coin. Zell is irritating at times to Squall, however he's not hated by Squall because well, he's not Seifer. In real life if you've ever hated someone you'll know that it doesn't have to be rational and that you will hate anyone like that person you can be best friends, lovers even with a person just like them so long as it isn't that person.

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4) Seifer and Rinoa were in a relationship. This proves that Squall and Seifer have the same taste for women.

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They both like pretty girls and therefore have to be brothers? C'mon seriously? You're clutching at straws here. I'm pretty sure I am not the only person who in real life has ended up doing stuff with or dating a girl and then found out a person I know has dated her in the past, this is more the fact that Rinoa after her relationship with Seifer ended was single, she meets a hunky SeeD mercenary dances with him and then he gets assigned as the squad leader on the mission she just managed to get help from SeeD on. She already fancied him because she wanted to dance with him their proximity in the game storyline just opened up the possibility for her to actually get closer to him and for him to fall in love with her. Reality check here for anyone inexperienced or who doesn't understand women: If a woman asks you to dance or if "you're ok for a drink?" she is generally asking you out/interested in you and you ought to be aware of that.

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5) Seifer had a childhood dream, who says Squall didn't? Squall was shy and insecure, so of course he won't express himself fully...

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Squall may well have had a childhood dream, his probably involved finding "sis" (Ellone) and stuff like that. Maybe he did dream of becomming a soldier or something. Most of the kids at the orphanage were the orphans of the war. Squall isn't shy and insecure, he's aloof and introverted two very different things to shy and insecure. Basically Squall doesn't care for the rest of the world he isn't bothered, one day he could be toppling dictators and the next he could be raising a new one it doesn't matter the world will go on. Being Introverted means he just doesn't like to share his emotions with people, they're a personal thing and so he will act cold towards others to stop them getting closer to him, It's best not to have friends because friends let you down sort of thing.

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6) Squall and Seifer both have similar facials; thier mouths, eyes, jaws, and eyebrows. Except thier hairs... but I believe that Seifer dyed his hair blonde (yes, even in his youthhood!)

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See this is where if you understood genetics in your earlier post you wouldn't have been so stupid here by saying he dyed his hair even in childhood. If just one grandparent had been blonde then the genetic makeup of the parents means that the grandchild could well be born blonde. It's much alike to how black couples can sometimes have white babies because one of the grandparents had been white. It's rare true but it happens because of genetics. As for similar jaw line, eyes, eyebrows. Take a look at the images from their cards, the player card images were concept art for the characters, the original storyboard creations. Now look carefully, the poses are slightly different but not so different that you can't tell clearly that Seifer has a squarer jaw than Squall, he also has much different eyebrows, his eyebrows arch where as Squall's seem to just go up and don't appear to curve back down. Their eyes are completely different sharing only the colour of the iris Squall's are both larger and rounder and less hooded than Seifer's. Looking at the mouth and the ears these too are different there is about as much similarity in these two men as saying there is similarity between all well toned white men.

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7) There may be some preposterous claims made by Kiros/Ward that Squall looks like Laguna. But if he mentioned Seifer, it wouldn't make sense, right? Why would a friend mention an enemy's name when it's relevant? We beaten Seifer.. and go like "You and Seifer just look like Laguna..." Anyways, if there's no hardcore evidence within the game that Squall is actually Laguna's son, then the same goes for Seifer. The concept of Squall being Laguna's son was born from a hint. Keyword: hint!

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The reference here you are wrong about, Kiros and Ward say "it is a good thing you look like your mother" Squall's mother is Raine, if you take two pictures from the game, one of Laguna and one of Raine and compare them to a picture of Squall you can pick the parts from both parents what Squall shares. For instance he has Laguna's eye colour, but his eyes are shaped more like Raine's. Now, Couple the comment about Squall being fortunate to look like his mother which implies Kiros and Ward know both of Squall's parents well (somewhat of a important thing considering Squall is an orphan according to his upbringing) with what Ellone tells us about Laguna's past. Laguna went searching for Ellone, he kept at it so hard that he missed the birth of his son and the death of his wife. Raine dies in childbirth, Squall is raised in an orphanage. Kiros and Ward know his parents...You're right it's only hinted at in game. However the hints are like 100 megaton nuclear warheads going off, it doesn't take a genius to work out what is happening here.

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8) The last names of Seifer and Squall may not match, but who says one can't change his name? As far as I know, it's legal to change your name under the age of 18... in a game such as VIII..

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True enough sometimes brothers do not have matching sur-names, those born of different fathers for instance or a brother born to a mistress will often not carry the family name of his father but the one of his mother or a combination of the two family names. However we're talking that 1) if they changed names legally then they know each is the others brother and it would be reflected in game somehow, especially when they hear Seifer is dead and again when they discover he is alive and a third time when the torture scene takes place. Thats just the start of it. 2) That Raine had a child during the Laguna/Ellone in Winhill sequence by a different person because Seifer is 2 years older than Squall. We never once see a baby in Raine's Home. Pre-emtively here: As for the idea of Julia Heartilly having given birth to Seifer but fathered by Laguna that would make Seifer's whole relationship to Rinoa sick and would probably be mentioned by General Caraway or Rinoa that she had a brother.

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Hmm, interesting. I sometimes wondered why Ultimecia chose to use Seifer as her main puppet. I mean, why didn't Ultimecia possess someone bigger like Ward? Imagine beating a possessed Ward..
But consider the acknowledgement of a brothership conflict. I believe that that would help Ultimecia succeed effectively... far more effective than possessing a guy like Ward.

Uh huh, Ultimecia didn't possess Seifer because he was confused in his unpossessed form.

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Seifer was a tool something to use. She needed one of the best warriors out there in the time frame of the game to keep her chosen posessed sorceress alive. It was a combination of knowing Seifer through Edea's memories (also Seifer also remembered the orphanage unlike the rest of the SeeD trained candidates he refers to Edea as matron before he could have discovered this otherwise since Irvine had only just shared his memories with the squad), his training as a SeeD makes him useful in not only is he one of the finest warriors of the time but she figures he knows the meaning of SeeD and it's purpose. His romantic dream helps to make him easier to manipulate. She never posessed anyone who wasn't a sorceress, I would assume her power had some kind of limitation that she could only posess those who had power to begin with. Manipulation then is key when it comes to a "sorceress knight" Ward had been with Laguna when he beat Adel, he knew what Sorceresses could do and it remained Estharian government policy to freeze any and all sorceresses upon discovery, consider Laguna was and is President of Esthar and Kiros and Ward his two chief advisers. It would not have been easy to manipulate any of those 3 in to becomming her protector. Another thing to point out: Size means nothing. Ward is huge yes that is true. Much of his bulk is muscle but he has what can only be described as a SIZABLE beer gut too. Otherwise explain his bulging stomach. Power is not relative to size alone. Technique can put much more emphasis on the power aspect of a warrior, knowing how to turn a huge hulking person's strength and size against them in a fight has saved me a serious ass kicking on more than one occassion and I am sure many members who know me can and will testify I'm not puny irl but neither am I ripped with muscle.

I think... if Square intended something THIS BIG to be in the game, they would have made it clear. they did it in IX, no? Zidane and Kuja are brothers, and we know it because the game told us. If that was the case for VIII too, I don't see a reason why it would remain in the shadows. :)

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...r-squall01.jpg

I've got one more:

Seifer looking up to Balamb Garden at the end of the game.
He knows that Squall is up there. He's glad that Squall is back from
the dead. All of this were aided by the event that Squall, his own brother , saved Seifer from Ultimecia. Brothers that expressed dislikement for each other actually have true brother love for each other.. deep inside.

Sure, if by brother you mean adoptive sibling.

Yeah, this is just not true. Many of your claims are stretched so much they don't even make sense. See Iceglow's post, there's every reason why it's a stretch!

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I've got one more:

Seifer looking up to Balamb Garden at the end of the game.
He knows that Squall is up there. He's glad that Squall is back from
the dead. All of this were aided by the event that Squall, his own brother , saved Seifer from Ultimecia. Brothers that expressed dislikement for each other actually have true brother love for each other.. deep inside.

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what the ef...

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Does that make every Gabaldian Soldier in the game the brother of every other soldier in the game?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

1) Seifer copied Dad's (Laguna) attacking style in his sword form.

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Or he was trained in the same style. Or the animators were lazy.

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2) Seifer and Squall both use swords. They both have facial scars. This proves that thier genes were designed in the same way by their parents.

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Scars they give each other at the start of the game. Does this mean I share genes with anyone that has an eyebrow scar?

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3) Seifer and Squall dislike each other for selfish reasons. About the same dislikement Squall has for Ultimecia. Ironic, eh? Quite common in brotherships. Think about it, Zell is annoying just like Seifer, but yet Squall hates Seifer more.

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That is because they are teenagers.

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4) Seifer and Rinoa were in a relationship. This proves that Squall and Seifer have the same taste for women.

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Squall takes a looooong time to warm up to Rinoa, even in the French version where he's a little quicker to catch on.

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5) Seifer had a childhood dream, who says Squall didn't? Squall was shy and insecure, so of course he won't express himself fully...

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He was always looking for sis. Squall wanted a family.

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6) Squall and Seifer both have similar facials; thier mouths, eyes, jaws, and eyebrows. Except thier hairs... but I believe that Seifer dyed his hair blonde (yes, even in his youthhood!)

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That's because they were designed by a member of Square's development team. All Nomura designs look alike, as do all of Amano's.

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7) There may be some preposterous claims made by Kiros/Ward that Squall looks like Laguna. But if he mentioned Seifer, it wouldn't make sense, right? Why would a friend mention an enemy's name when it's relevant? We beaten Seifer.. and go like "You and Seifer just look like Laguna..." Anyways, if there's no hardcore evidence within the game that Squall is actually Laguna's son, then the same goes for Seifer. The concept of Squall being Laguna's son was born from a hint. Keyword: hint!

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Wrong. They say he "looks like his mother", implied to be Raine but never 100% confirmed (it's pretty obvious though).

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8) The last names of Seifer and Squall may not match, but who says one can't change his name? As far as I know, it's legal to change your name under the age of 18... in a game such as VIII..

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In the middle of one's education, changing one's name confuses things a great deal. So no they would not.

Also, Squall has brown hair, Seifer is blonde-going-on-ginger. Squall's believed parents have brown hair.

In the prison, the Moombas, having the ability to recognise DNA, do not seem to think there to be any connection between Squall and Seifer when they're in the same room.

Fail.

That´s not true Serapy.

Seifer is Squall´s father-in-law.

There is more evidence to this than to that.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

That´s not true Serapy.

Seifer is Squall´s father-in-law.

There is more evidence to this than to that.

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Can you enlighten us with the evidence? :bigsmile:

There's one more, the blood that dropped from Squall's scar is very smiliar to that of Seifer's symbol on the back of his coat.

All of this proves that Squall and Seifer are, in fact, true brothers. :) :)

I was thinking maybe you should try reading Iceglow's post first! :bigsmile:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

There's one more, the blood that dropped from Squall's scar is very smiliar to that of Seifer's symbol on the back of his coat.

All of this proves that Squall and Seifer are, in fact, true brothers. :) :)

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Just making stuff up now. The double smiley face especially gives you away.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

That´s not true Serapy.

Seifer is Squall´s father-in-law.

There is more evidence to this than to that.

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The random bull you spout literally makes my jaw drop.

I wouldn't be surprised if you said one day "The Queen of Cards is actually Adel's grandmother".

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Originally Posted by Christmas

I was thinking maybe you should try reading Iceglow's post first! :bigsmile:

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I think he might have me on ignore for all the countless times I have shut down his crazy ass theories. If not he's just deliberately doing the fingers in the ears "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" because my post has ripped this theory apart before it can even be commenced as reading material.

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

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Originally Posted by Christmas

I was thinking maybe you should try reading Iceglow's post first! :bigsmile:

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I think he might have me on ignore for all the countless times I have shut down his crazy ass theories. If not he's just deliberately doing the fingers in the ears "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" because my post has ripped this theory apart before it can even be commenced as reading material.

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I don't think it matters if he has you on ignore or not. The only response you'd get from him would be:

No, you're wrong. I am right. Here is more evidence. *Insert something completely unrelated, possibly not even mentioned in the game, here.*

So, it's probably best he doesn't respond.

I'm only going to address a few of these because it seems like this is debating for the sake of debating. I don't actually think you even buy all of this stuff you spouted out, but anyway...

2) Seifer and Squall both use swords. They both have facial scars. This proves that thier genes were designed in the same way by their parents.
They both use swords because it's a common thing for RPG characters to use. They both use gunswords, in particular to depict their rivalry. The scars are obviously from the fight they had in the beginning of the game and not in any way genetic.

4) Seifer and Rinoa were in a relationship. This proves that Squall and Seifer have the same taste for women.
I don't see how liking similar women has anything to do with being related in fact many would argue that would prove they aren't related because brothers generally don't want to date a woman their sibling has been with.

6) Squall and Seifer both have similar facials; thier mouths, eyes, jaws, and eyebrows. Except thier hairs... but I believe that Seifer dyed his hair blonde (yes, even in his youthhood!)
Squall has gray eyes and brown hair. Seifer has blond hair and what appears to be light blue or gray eyes. Their are people who naturally have hair that light blond, so it doesn't prove that he dyed it. Seifer has a oval face and Squall has a wider, heart shaped face.

Future Esthar and Serapy love to make things up for their own amusement.

Its so funny to see Future Esthar come back and basically go "No, no. I am the king of making up insane bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: theories. Here's an example"

Seifer = Squall's brother = wtf
Seifer = Squall's father-in-law = WTF

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Its so funny to see Future Esthar come back and basically go "No, no. I am the king of making up insane bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: theories. Here's an example"

Seifer = Squall's brother = wtf
Seifer = Squall's father-in-law = WTF

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Theres no reason he couldnt be both

Squall and Seifer are brothers guys! Just look at the facts. Squall is moody because Seifer's friends make fun of him and his friends and Seifer doesn't ever stop them. Sibling rivalry. It makes perfect sense!

And Seifer makes fun of Squall because Squall is banging the teacher, Quistis, for a good grade and Seifer has to work really hard just to get a C-. How can you not see this?

This thread made my day. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

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Originally Posted by Christmas

I was thinking maybe you should try reading Iceglow's post first! :bigsmile:

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I think he might have me on ignore for all the countless times I have shut down his crazy ass theories. If not he's just deliberately doing the fingers in the ears "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" because my post has ripped this theory apart before it can even be commenced as reading material.

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Let's see... I used the search engine with 'Iceglow' as the username and 'Serapy' as the keyword. The following is a list of your posts that were directed at me from the past:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/2692593-post34.html

^ Your fabricated information (assumptions) have never changed anything. Your post expressed a different point of view and a name calling.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fan...-galbadia.html

^ You gave up arguing with me in that thread. Again, more fabricated information and name callings.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/2801152-post83.html

^ A matter of opinion. Your opinion didn't change anything, neither did mine.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/2604592-post38.html

^ How was that personal issue relevant to the topic at hand?

So, shall we compare your old posts with this precious post bit of yours:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow's post #27

I think he might have me on ignore for all the countless times I have shut down his crazy ass theories. If not he's just deliberately doing the fingers in the ears "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" because my post has ripped this theory apart before it can even be commenced as reading material.

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Conclusion? If you have read Iceglow's posts in the links I posted above, you can tell that his post #27 (in this thread) indicates a clear expression of arrogance, anger, ego, paranoia, his over-exaggerated claim ("I have shut down his crazy ass theories"). Most of his posts included name callings. Just how all of these attributes makes his claim ("I have shut down his crazy ass theories") any more valid?

This also proves that he still holds a grudge against me for a long time now (compare the dates between his old posts and his #27 post).

And what's even more pathetic is that 'Squall and Seifer being brothers' was never intended to become a valid theory. Yet people like Iceglow and ReloadPSI take my inconsistent behaviour way too serious just to score some points by spending a considerable amount of time attacking the thing itself and myself personally. :tongue::tongue:

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Originally Posted by f f freak

I don't think it matters if he has you on ignore or not. The only response you'd get from him would be:

No, you're wrong. I am right. Here is more evidence. *Insert something completely unrelated, possibly not even mentioned in the game, here.*

So, it's probably best he doesn't respond.

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Yes, obviously.

Why should I waste time arguing when I can spend time doing productive things? Why should I spend time arguing just to prove that I'm right? Over the Internet? A world like VIII where it's ambiguous, unclear, and having flawed segments (non-dialogues) that cannot completely be proved true or false, what's the point? It no longer becomes my job to make such a thing true because VIII's has been out for a long time. So, has there been any great discovery that's proven 100% true or false? None.

Simply put, I made this thread because I was bored.

So, I rather not let a good chunk of my dignity go to waste, thank you very much! :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

Squall and Seifer are brothers guys! Just look at the facts. Squall is moody because Seifer's friends make fun of him and his friends and Seifer doesn't ever stop them. Sibling rivalry. It makes perfect sense!

And Seifer makes fun of Squall because Squall is banging the teacher, Quistis, for a good grade and Seifer has to work really hard just to get a C-. How can you not see this?

This thread made my day.

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Exactly. Brothers usually have something in common... and these are good examples.

Squall and Seifer are brothers, also so are Zell and Irvine and Selphie, Quistis and Ellone are sisters.

Of course, I am joking, but I am also very serious... think it over, and you'll see what I mean.

HINT: "Blood" is not important. :p

More of a "food for thought" thread. I like that. Though the "Squall's dead" theory was much more delicious for my brain. But I'll concede :] Much appreciate the entertainment, regardless

Seifer and Squall are actually transvestite friends caught in the wrong game: hence all the angst and frustration. Plus, they both hang around Edea, who has a giant face-off with the other fashion queen, Ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

Squall and Seifer are brothers guys! Just look at the facts. Squall is moody because Seifer's friends make fun of him and his friends and Seifer doesn't ever stop them. Sibling rivalry. It makes perfect sense!

And Seifer makes fun of Squall because Squall is banging the teacher, Quistis, for a good grade and Seifer has to work really hard just to get a C-. How can you not see this?

This thread made my day.

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Exactly. Brothers usually have something in common... and these are good examples.

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No, they aren't actually. I was being sarcastic and pulled two examples out of my perfectly sculpted ass.

I'm not buying that you made this thread just because you were bored. As you have shown, you've made threads like these before. You can't honestly tell me you weren't expecting someone to tear this down. The same can be said about expecting someone to go along with it, or assume that this is just a discussion and not another far-fetched theory.

Also, how can you seriously say that Iceglow's arguement is "fabricated information". Do you ignore all the knowledge anyone in the world has ever learned ever, not to mention the events of the game you're making these theories about?

Fabricated - Formed or conceived by the imagination. (i.e. Squall and Seifer being brothers)

Did Serapy just admit to being a troll in his last post? His grammar was vastly improved and the following quotes seem to highlight that he has just been trolling us all along:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

And what's even more pathetic is that 'Squall and Seifer being brothers' was never intended to become a valid theory. Yet people like Iceglow and ReloadPSI take my inconsistent behaviour way too serious just to score some points by spending a considerable amount of time attacking the thing itself and myself personally.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Simply put, I made this thread because I was bored.

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His whole manner of posting just seemed to change in general.

Serapy is not a troll, if he was he'd post anti FFVIII threads.

He was just having fun here, as was I - do you concider me a troll too?

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Serapy is not a troll, if he was he'd post anti FFVIII threads.

He was just having fun here, as was I - do you concider me a troll too?

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I meant troll in regards to posting crackpot theories, with sub par grammar and clogging up the FFVIII forum. And also not accepting when his theories were smashed into mush with evidence from the game, which he failed to provide to back up his theories.

I don't really know you well enough to comment on that, but I don't see countless threads by you with ridiculous theories that don't make sense, so I'd have to say no. Though maybe I should check your posting history and see if I'm wrong.

I don't think acting crazy is necessarily the same as being a troll. Granted, sometimes they go hand-in-hand, but its more like being a troll probably means you're crazy, but being crazy doesn't mean you're automatically a troll. Clogging the forum with crackpot theories at least keeps it alive and instigates discussion. I've rarely seen a flame war break out the few times I actually come check out his or Future Esthar's works. Its usually just lots of debates. Pointless, debates. But still debates. Trolls instigate actual arguing

haha this is smurfing stupid, and that's what you'd have to be to come up with something like this too

:lol: I love this!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

No, they aren't actually. I was being sarcastic and pulled two examples out of my perfectly sculpted ass.

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No need to point it out. I already knew, buddy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

I'm not buying that you made this thread just because you were bored. As you have shown, you've made threads like these before.

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Compared to my other theories, Squall and Seifer being brothers is pretty extreme. I thought that was already obvious enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f f freak

Did Serapy just admit to being a troll in his last post? His grammar was vastly improved and the following quotes seem to highlight that he has just been trolling us all along:

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Do I intend to annoy people when I make threads like this? Uh-huh, my instincts say no. Therefore, I'm not a troll.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f f freak

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Serapy is not a troll, if he was he'd post anti FFVIII threads.

He was just having fun here, as was I - do you concider me a troll too?

---

I meant troll in regards to posting crackpot theories, with sub par grammar and clogging up the FFVIII forum. And also not accepting when his theories were smashed into mush with evidence from the game, which he failed to provide to back up his theories.

---

Guys and girls, we now have another one of these over-exaggerated claims made by a different person. I've been here since '06 and occasionally created threads and contributed to other people's threads from time to time. Now, you're saying that every post I made on this forum is void and null and that I never backed up one single post. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Clogging the forum with crackpot theories at least keeps it alive and instigates discussion.

---

You and Christmas are the only people that have said this. Excellent! Because that was always one of my main intentions when contributing to this forum. It's a shame how certain people don't realise this.

Oops. I may have argued back, but at least it's not VIII related! :p

When I was a lurker, FFVIII was probably one of my most viewed forums, back when Christmas went by Unknowns and spent most of her time arguing against crazy theories. It was amusing to watch it all unfold. I think that speaks for itself a bit, especially since I really actually hate FFVIII itself. You and Future Esthar managed to keep the place alive, and help people have an excuse to vent their love for the game by arguing crazy theories. I'm sure it was better than sitting around an empty forum, or going over the same old "riddles" or "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer" oriented threads that are just prolonging the inevitable death of the forum

I personally don't care if an old game's forum lives or dies. If its old, then its reasonable there wouldn't be much activity in its forum. But stuff like this has managed to buck that trend and give the fans of the game something to do. So if that is indeed your mission, then I'd say you're accomplishing it to some degree. And kudos for that then

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

:lol: I love this!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

No, they aren't actually. I was being sarcastic and pulled two examples out of my perfectly sculpted ass.

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No need to point it out. I already knew, buddy.

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You've seen my ass? :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I've got one more:

Seifer looking up to Balamb Garden at the end of the game.
He knows that Squall is up there. He's glad that Squall is back from
the dead. All of this were aided by the event that Squall, his own brother , saved Seifer from Ultimecia. Brothers that expressed dislikement for each other actually have true brother love for each other.. deep inside.

---

Or maybe he's happy that he isn't back on the vessel with a bunch chicken wusses and over zealous do gooders...


Basically you're in the fail.. Iceglow did a nice job explain things otherwise I would have yelled at you.. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Guys and girls, we now have another one of these over-exaggerated claims made by a different person. I've been here since '06 and occasionally created threads and contributed to other people's threads from time to time. Now, you're saying that every post I made on this forum is void and null and that I never backed up one single post.

---

I don't believe I ever said that every post you made on the forum is void, so maybe you need to go back and read the actual post. Nor did I say you never backed up a single post, I said you failed to provide evidence from the game.
Although based on your inability to actually read/understand my post, it wouldn't surprise me if you thought you were providing evidence in the game after failing to read/understand the game.

I thought Squall and Seifer were ex-lovers :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f f freak

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Guys and girls, we now have another one of these over-exaggerated claims made by a different person. I've been here since '06 and occasionally created threads and contributed to other people's threads from time to time. Now, you're saying that every post I made on this forum is void and null and that I never backed up one single post.

---

I don't believe I ever said that every post you made on the forum is void, so maybe you need to go back and read the actual post.

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Um, no. If I replace 'post' with 'theory', it becomes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Guys and girls, we now have another one of these over-exaggerated claims made by a different person. I've been here since '06 and occasionally created threads and contributed to other people's threads from time to time. Now, you're saying that every theory I made on this forum is void and null and that I never backed up one single theory.

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That doesn't make any difference, now does it? Most of my posts on this forum include assumptions, such assumptions that you people call theories nowadays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f f freak

Nor did I say you never backed up a single post, I said you failed to provide evidence from the game.

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See, that's the implication. You're basically implying that I never provided evidence to back up EACH of my theory. How many theories I've made? A lot. Have I argued back? Yes. You should have read my post history before making an assumption like that, lol. Way to over-exaggerate yourself again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f f freak

Although based on your inability to actually read/understand my post, it wouldn't surprise me if you thought you were providing evidence in the game after failing to read/understand the game.

---

It's common courtesy that VIII is one of the most comprehensive FF games, since the game uses a lot of basic English compared to other FF games. For example, compare VIII to XII. Now, you're claiming that I fail to read/understand VIII? Good job being over-exaggerated again and again! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

By looking at the characters interactions one realize the following:

Edea and Seifer are Rinoa´s parents.
Squall and Rinoa are Zell´s parents.
Zell and Quistis are Selphie´s parents.
Selphie probably stays with Irvine.

This looks crazy but it´s not because the world of FF8 is a "time compressed" world comprised of about 6 eras.
Evidence?
I made a lot of threads in the past showing them.

But you can do the following experiment:
Divide the world in 6 big areas so that you can´t cross between them on foot.
Then take the Ragnarok to different places and try to realise how these places evolve from one place to the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f f freak

I meant troll in regards to posting crackpot theories, with sub par grammar and clogging up the FFVIII forum.

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I don't agree with many theories myself (R/U especially), but I don't consider it trolling. I have read Serapy's theories and the theories of others - even the parts I don't necessarily agree with, I can see where the theorist (in this case Serapy) gets his/her theories from, and am very open to the fact that people interpret things differently. I do have theories on the FF games, and will post them, and if they are proved wrong fine. Some of which have already been proven wrong by solid evidence, but if I don't consider that evidence that solid, I will keep my theory, or if I find something that re-supports my theory I will try again. I'm not trying to be arrogant, because I will back down, if I have feel I have been proven wrong. There is one theory that some disagree with, but since the only way to really prove it is to as Square, I am sticking to it.

I'm sure this is true for Serapy (and anyone else) if they don't feel they have been proved wrong enough they will keep sticking to the theory, but if Serapy was given any evidence that his theory is 100% wrong he'll most probably let go of it. Until then, he has a right to post it.

Furthermore, it is unfair to label someone a troll because of their spelling and/or grammar. People make mistakes, even with simple things sometimes. Plus, the accused "troll" could be dyslexia or something, or simply not have a good spell checking tool. And even then, anyone who is using a system earlier than Vista may sometimes miss mistakes like "Your" vs. "You're" and "There" vs. "Their" (another reason why Vista is an excellent system).

I'm getting a kick out of this! ;)
Squall and Seifer are not brothers, but someone posting that they are *when it's rather obvious they're not...* gives all of us VIII diehards a chance to prove we're diehards!
I'd like to say thanks, Serapy, you helped me roll my eyes and remind me what a sucker I am for this game! :D

Now, one little thing, just to make this more topic related, it never said Raine had two kids that Laguna wasn't there for. I'm pretty sure it'd be mentioned if she did, or if she had another child period.

Edit: And one more thing.. It's not called a sword. It's not called a gunsword either.. It's a gunblade. G U N B L A D E .
Now carry on (:

What's with the troll thing getting brought up all the time? I think it's pretty obvious that people are just trying to start up a conversation, even if it's a tongue-in-cheek exchange. All the legitimate theories have been talked to death, so this is just a way of keeping the conversations going until someone comes up with something else.

In regards to the theory I think it illustrates an assumption that could be made about the game if one were to experience only part of it, or to simply look at the characters alone without knowing the story. They made strong ties to Squall and Seifer in an attempt to make them out to be rivals, which could be seen as more than coincidental. Both specializing in gunblade usage? Okay. Both having matching scars? Alright so they have a counterpart thing going on. Both have a sorceress-knight situation. Both are about the same age. Both come from the same orphanage. Both have forgotten their past. Both are unaware of their parents at the beginning of the story. Both went after the same woman. Things are starting to go a little further than parallels. If not for Seifer's blond hair and age advantage over Squall this would be a perfectly reasonable assumption. I would not be surprised if the writers did not consider it at some point, so perhaps the spirit is there. Maybe they just wanted to avoid the cliche.

As long as we're throwing these out there what about Ward Being Seifer's father? No one really knows what he did while he worked as a janitor. He could have left a pregnant girlfriend behind to go help Laguna liberate Esthar, only to find that they were gone when he returned. And since it seems like the Kramers ran the only orphanage in the world, well you get the idea. It could explain why Seifer is so much taller than everyone else, and explain where he might have first come across the sorceress knight movie. Before anyone cries non-sequitur arguments and self reliant fallacies, I assure you that I am in no way convinced by my own words, nor is that the point of such a proposal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

By looking at the characters interactions one realize the following:

Edea and Seifer are Rinoa´s parents.
Squall and Rinoa are Zell´s parents.
Zell and Quistis are Selphie´s parents.
Selphie probably stays with Irvine.

This looks crazy but it´s not because the world of FF8 is a "time compressed" world comprised of about 6 eras.
Evidence?
I made a lot of threads in the past showing them.

But you can do the following experiment:
Divide the world in 6 big areas so that you can´t cross between them on foot.
Then take the Ragnarok to different places and try to realise how these places evolve from one place to the other.

---

what's the purpose of that though in regards to the story though?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Edea and Seifer are Rinoa´s parents.
Squall and Rinoa are Zell´s parents.
Zell and Quistis are Selphie´s parents.
Selphie probably stays with Irvine.

---

*Head explodes*

Are we still talking about this interesting FF VIII theory here or something else? :bigsmile:

EDIT:Actually I think Ultima Weapon is a victim of a rape by Laguna and that is why Ultima Weapon attacK Squall in DSRC. :bigsmile:

If you tried to discuss the theories instead of making jokes it would be more productive Christmas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

By looking at the characters interactions one realize the following:

Edea and Seifer are Rinoa´s parents.
Squall and Rinoa are Zell´s parents.
Zell and Quistis are Selphie´s parents.
Selphie probably stays with Irvine.

---

Are you SERIOUS?

If you are, what evidence IS there?! Zell and Quistis show NO ROMANTIC INTEREST, not even once. And that's the only one I'm going to address right now. I mean, come on!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

By looking at the characters interactions one realize the following:

Edea and Seifer are Rinoa´s parents.
Squall and Rinoa are Zell´s parents.
Zell and Quistis are Selphie´s parents.
Selphie probably stays with Irvine.

---

Are you SERIOUS?

If you are, what evidence IS there?! Zell and Quistis show NO ROMANTIC INTEREST, not even once. And that's the only one I'm going to address right now. I mean, come on!

---

No, it really makes perfect sense. Because Zell & Quistis were in a loveless marriage, they got a divorce shortly after Selphie's birth, leading to Quistis having a short affair with Squall. As a result of this, Ultimecia was conceived, but Squall cut them off, and that's why she dislikes him and his organisation (SeeD) so very much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Future Esthar

By looking at the characters interactions one realize the following:

Edea and Seifer are Rinoa´s parents.
Squall and Rinoa are Zell´s parents.
Zell and Quistis are Selphie´s parents.
Selphie probably stays with Irvine.

---

Are you SERIOUS?

If you are, what evidence IS there?! Zell and Quistis show NO ROMANTIC INTEREST, not even once. And that's the only one I'm going to address right now. I mean, come on!

---

We may never know. I mean, they have never recognised each other until the mid-game. According to the game, the orphanage is the only event that's brought back to life. But what if there was something else, other than the orphanage? What if there was something else that the party has not yet recognised?

It doesn't seem quite logical that the Orphanage was the only memory to be given back to the party. There has to be something more, not just the orphanage.

SquareSoft didn't do that (adding more things to the game), I'd agrue that it's because of disk space... among other reasons, e.g. not enough time. So, even little hints within the game can be considered very very important.

This is like a dice game, either it's hit or miss; one little hint can be worthy or not, but that doesn't mean you should automatically demolish the possbilities of these little hints. Don't ever do that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

This is like a dice game, either it's hit or miss; one little hint can be worthy or not, but that doesn't mean you should automatically demolish the possbilities of these little hints. Don't ever do that!

---

What "little hints"? Zell and Quistis don't talk.

Serapy: A "theory" based on loads of assumptions is inherently less reliable than explanations based on actual known facts. Please see Occam's Razor. Just because something is possible on a theoretical level does not make it likely, or even plausible.

Your "theory" fails a basic common sense test. Why would Square invent this intricate story only very arguably even remotely hinted at, where only a couple of people even reach that conclusion, years after the game's release? Is there some conspiracy among game writers to hide the "true" plot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Serapy: A "theory" based on loads of assumptions is inherently less reliable than explanations based on actual known facts. Please see Occam's Razor. Just because something is possible on a theoretical level does not make it likely, or even plausible.

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It's possible, actually. Considering the fact that VIII is ficition. Do you honestly think that the creators of VIII strictly followed the Occam Razor model when making the game? Just no. It's likely that they didn't follow the model, and if we follow the model... the results would be way inconsisent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Your "theory" fails a basic common sense test.

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You fail to realise the intention of this thread. And moreover, we cannot always apply our realistic common sense to VIII becaue our world and VIII's world are different. So, your claim "use common sense" is not logical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Why would Square invent this intricate story only very arguably even remotely hinted at, where only a couple of people even reach that conclusion, years after the game's release?

---

Because the fan base was heavily biased. When FF8 came out, a lot of people hated it and supported FF7 more. So, when you hate something, you don't look forward into digging itself. Years later, people begin to forget about VIII. Sooo... and Square can invent whatever they want. It's fiction.

I don't get why all the VII fans were so quick to hate VIII seing as the games are similar in many ways, but different in others.

I know a lot of members here hate both VII and VIII, but they are my favorite FFs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

It's possible, actually.

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I never said it wasn't; I even stated it as a given. My argument is that "possible" does not equate to "plausible."

Quote:

---

Do you honestly think that the creators of VIII strictly followed the Occam Razor model when making the game? Just no. It's likely that they didn't follow the model, and if we follow the model... the results would be way inconsisent.

---

I have no idea what this even means. Occam's Razor is not some model for writing something. It is a tool of logic, which favors theories based on evidence than on baseless assumptions. The more assumptions you have to make, the less reliable and plausible the conclusion.

Quote:

---

And moreover, we cannot always apply our realistic common sense to VIII becaue our world and VIII's world are different. So, your claim "use common sense" is not logical.

---

"Common sense test" was an arbitrary label for the substantive argument afterward, but your response here makes no sense. Yes, VIII is in a fantasy world, but the writers and developers are in this one, which is what the substantive argument addressed.

Quote:

---

Because the fan base was heavily biased. When FF8 came out, a lot of people hated it and supported FF7 more. So, when you hate something, you don't look forward into digging itself. Years later, people begin to forget about VIII. Sooo... and Square can invent whatever they want. It's fiction.

---

Everybody hated FFVIII? No one was examining the plot? Your reasoning is almost as implausible as your conclusion, as you are simply piling on more assumptions.

Yes, Square can do whatever they want. But you have provided no actual evidence to support the conclusion that Square did what you are asserting.

Okay, I understand the desire to try to make up theories regarding old games, but can you at least make them REALISTIC to a small degree? Because this is not fun. This is startling. This is a put-off.

My theory was so much better! :(

But people see it as a joke, I was so all serious and filled with evidences to prove it! :bigsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

It's possible, actually.

---

I never said it wasn't; I even stated it as a given. My argument is that "possible" does not equate to "plausible."

---

Every human mind is different. So, why must "possibility" always equate to "plausibility"? What did you expect?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

---

Do you honestly think that the creators of VIII strictly followed the Occam Razor model when making the game? Just no. It's likely that they didn't follow the model, and if we follow the model... the results would be way inconsisent.

---

I have no idea what this even means. Occam's Razor is not some model for writing something. It is a tool of logic, which favors theories based on evidence than on baseless assumptions. The more assumptions you have to make, the less reliable and plausible the conclusion.

---

You're missing the point. Why would the creators of VIII waste more time making sure that thier points are clear, clear enough to be 'evidence' ? VIII, as well as other FF games, are designed to be open interpretation for players.
So, if the creators of VIII followed Occam's Razor, the game would be a lot less ambiguous.

Why is it that people like you take things out of proportion nowadays? I didn't mention "theory" in my first post, did I?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

---

And moreover, we cannot always apply our realistic common sense to VIII becaue our world and VIII's world are different. So, your claim "use common sense" is not logical.

---

"Common sense test" was an arbitrary label for the substantive argument afterward, but your response here makes no sense. Yes, VIII is in a fantasy world, but the writers and developers are in this one, which is what the substantive argument addressed.

---

Fantasy worlds lead to more possibilities than real worlds. So, we can't use our common sense to analyse the game. I'm talking about inside the game, not outside.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

---

Because the fan base was heavily biased. When FF8 came out, a lot of people hated it and supported FF7 more. So, when you hate something, you don't look forward into digging itself. Years later, people begin to forget about VIII. Sooo... and Square can invent whatever they want. It's fiction.

---

Everybody hated FFVIII? No one was examining the plot?

---

Stop exaggerating. I never said everybody.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Your reasoning is almost as implausible as your conclusion, as you are simply piling on more assumptions.

---

Okayy... Why don't you disprove this "theory" to prove that you're right? I'd love to hear it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Yes, Square can do whatever they want. But you have provided no actual evidence to support the conclusion that Square did what you are asserting.

---

Are we playing the game? How can you give evidence when the game has a lot of things that are ambiguous? When the game is open to interpretation?

Anyways, I already have provided my evidence. You're just saying that because you don't like the idea of Squall and Seifer being brothers. :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Every human mind is different. So, why must "possibility" always equate to "plausibility"? What did you expect?

---

Do you... even think about the things you read? I never said that. I said merely that something is possible does NOT make it plausible. A 0.0000001% possibility based on only wild assumptions is still possible. For something to be actually worth considering, though (plausibility), it has to be a realistic possibility.

Quote:

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You're missing the point. Why would the creators of VIII waste more time making sure that thier points are clear, clear enough to be 'evidence' ? VIII, as well as other FF games, are designed to be open interpretation for players.

---

Waste time... writing a coherent story? I'm going to hazard a wild guess and say the creators of FFVIII had different priorities than you. And just in case you missed the sarcasm, that's not actually a wild guess.

Quote:

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So, if the creators of VIII followed Occam's Razor, the game would be a lot less ambiguous.

---

Again, Occam's Razor is not something followed to create something. It's a basic principle of logic.

There are valid debates in every game, so your "less ambiguous" argument is spurious. But valid debates focus on evidence rather than ignoring mountains of evidence and instead focusing on remotely possible assumptions. This current debate, in scientific terms, is akin to intelligent design vs. evolution (read: not much of one).

Quote:

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Stop exaggerating. I never said everybody.

---

So you don't address the actual argument that there were plenty of people who liked FFVIII, and plenty more who still played it. This is a red herring.

Quote:

---

Why is it that people like you take things out of proportion nowadays? I didn't mention "theory" in my first post, did I?

---

You and your magic words. The lack of the word "theory" doesn't mean you weren't making an explanatory argument. This is a red herring.

Quote:

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Fantasy worlds lead to more possibilities than real worlds. So, we can't use our common sense to analyse the game. I'm talking about inside the game, not outside.

---

You realize these things had to be written outside the game, right? Which is what my argument addressed? This is a red herring.

Quote:

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Okayy... Why don't you disprove this "theory" to prove that you're right? I'd love to hear it!

---

Did you miss Iceglow's post? Your so-called evidence was demolished at the beginning of this thread. Actually, now that I look back, you never even bothered to respond to Iceglow's comprehensive rebuttal. Which can only lead me to believe you're either willfully ignorant or just a troll. Either way, a rational debate is impossible. As it appears others have already learned from "debates" with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serapy

Every human mind is different. So, why must "possibility" always equate to "plausibility"? What did you expect?

---

Do you... even think about the things you read? I never said that. I said merely that something is possible does NOT make it plausible. A 0.0000001% possibility based on only wild assumptions is still possible. For something to be actually worth considering, though (plausibility), it has to be a realistic possibility.

---

Simply put, it doesn't seem "plausible" to you because the whole idea of Squall and Seifer being brothers is ridiculous.
Ridiculous things = not plausible, it seems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

---

You're missing the point. Why would the creators of VIII waste more time making sure that thier points are clear, clear enough to be 'evidence' ? VIII, as well as other FF games, are designed to be open interpretation for players.

---

Waste time... writing a coherent story? I'm going to hazard a wild guess and say the creators of FFVIII had different priorities than you. And just in case you missed the sarcasm, that's not actually a wild guess.

---

In other words, they are not going to waste time ensuring that everything in VIII is flawless. Flawless as in... no inconsistencies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

---

So, if the creators of VIII followed Occam's Razor, the game would be a lot less ambiguous.

---

Again, Occam's Razor is not something followed to create something. It's a basic principle of logic.

---

Uh-huh. Here's a comparison so you can understand what I mean:

A) I know Occam's Razor and I created this story.
B) I don't know Occam's Razor and I created this story.

Would the results of A) and B) be the same? Definitely not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

There are valid debates in every game, so your "less ambiguous" argument is spurious.

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Not really. Answer this question yourself, if VIII wasn't ambiguous, then why are people still debating about it on various sites, such as here and gamefaqs? Also, if it wasn't ambiguous, then why are there so many explanations on the guides/FAQ page of gamefaqs (e.g. Time Plot) ?

And not really. Not every game has valid debates. Most of them are straightforward, unlike VIII. Are you sure you have played VIII before?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

But valid debates focus on evidence rather than ignoring mountains of evidence and instead focusing on remotely possible assumptions. This current debate, in scientific terms, is akin to intelligent design vs. evolution (read: not much of one).

---

That's evil. And there's nothing wrong with making something out of a chain of subtle hints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

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Stop exaggerating. I never said everybody.

---

So you don't address the actual argument that there were plenty of people who liked FFVIII, and plenty more who still played it.

---

Dunno why this is such a big deal to you. There's a number of reasons why certain people don't dig into games that much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

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Why is it that people like you take things out of proportion nowadays? I didn't mention "theory" in my first post, did I?

---

You and your magic words. The lack of the word "theory" doesn't mean you weren't making an explanatory argument.

---

I have said this before. Every time when I talk to myself or on this forum, I get "LULZZ GIMME EVIDENCE DAT KK" in return! :lol: :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Quote:

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Fantasy worlds lead to more possibilities than real worlds. So, we can't use our common sense to analyse the game. I'm talking about inside the game, not outside.

---

You realize these things had to be written outside the game, right? Which is what my argument addressed?

---

To apply internal logic, never use your common sense... The sense that's outside of VIII's world... aka our Earth... duh.

To think like a VIII person; to make sense out of what happened and how does it feel, etc etc. In order to do all that, your mind have to travel into the universe of Final Fantasy VIII and da-da.

If not, then your argument is irrelevant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Did you miss Iceglow's post? Your so-called evidence was demolished at the beginning of this thread.

---

Uh-huh. Did the game explictly state "LULZ SEIFER AND SQUALL ARE NOT BROTHERS" ? Nope. And plus, his post was mostly assumptions as well. If his assumptions make more sense than mine, then it doesn't mean swat.

To disprove something fully, you have to use hardcore evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Actually, now that I look back, you never even bothered to respond to Iceglow's comprehensive rebuttal. Which can only lead me to believe you're either willfully ignorant or just a troll.

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Stop jumping on the bandwagon, stop exaggerating and, most importantly, stop discriminating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Either way, a rational debate is impossible. As it appears others have already learned from "debates" with you.

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Not my fault. You started it. :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Did you miss Iceglow's post? Your so-called evidence was demolished at the beginning of this thread.

---

Uh-huh. Did the game explictly state "LULZ SEIFER AND SQUALL ARE NOT BROTHERS" ? Nope. And plus, his post was mostly assumptions as well. If his assumptions make more sense than mine, then it doesn't mean swat.

To disprove something fully, you have to use hardcore evidence.

---

This is a video game we're talking about. I shouldn't have to point this out, but video games aren't like real life. FF8 lasts about 20-30 hours, in which time an entire world is introduced, experienced and left behind. If you want to think about the game to this level of detail, you'll have to accept that assumptions will have to be made about it. You simply don't know enough about the FF8 world and its inhabitants to be able to find all the answers to every single question that could possibly be raised by a theory.

Though If I could boot up my FF8 game and walk Squall down to child protection services and ask the NPC receptionist for his and Seifer's adoption papers with their real parents names on them, I would.

edit: orphanages don't actually 'adopt' children, do they? xD

The presentation of a movie usually lasts 1.30 hour. Realistically, it lasts way more than that. This presentation only shows you the important stuff, not everything. Sooo... just 'cause this presentation didn't show everything, it doesn't mean these things don't exist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

To disprove something fully, you have to use hardcore evidence.

---

Fixed.

Quote:

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"To prove something fully, you have to use hardcore evidence."

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You have failed to present any reasonable evidence for your claim that couldn't be completely refuted. Try making up a theory that can actually stand against an iota of criticism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

To disprove something fully, you have to use hardcore evidence.

---

Fixed.

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I already have, buddy. The points I have listed actually happened in the game and thus considered as evidence. You're confusing evidence with logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Quote:

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"To prove something fully, you have to use hardcore evidence."

---

You have failed to present any reasonable evidence for your claim that couldn't be completely refuted. Try making up a theory that can actually stand against an iota of criticism.

---

Read the thread again. I didn't have to prove mine any further because like what I've said before, this was never intended to be a valid theory. However, if you're taking this thread very strictly and seriously, then you have to undergo the utmost duty of disproving the whole idea both completely and fully.

Also, in comparison to the world of VIII, what couldn't be more "reasonable"? VIII is a fictional world, nothing is more or less reasonable in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Sooo... just 'cause this presentation didn't show everything, it doesn't mean these things don't exist.

---

It doesn't mean it does exist, either.

And since you're the one making the theories here, the onus of providing proof falls to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Sooo... just 'cause this presentation didn't show everything, it doesn't mean these things don't exist.

---

It doesn't mean it does exist, either.

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Then there's nothing wrong with curiosity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

And since you're the one making the theories here, the onus of providing proof falls to you.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Read the thread again. I said I didn't have to prove mine any further because this was never intended to be a valid theory. However, if you're taking this thread very strictly and seriously, then you have to undergo the utmost duty of disproving the whole idea both completely and fully.

---

Then why bother even bringing it up? If you're not going to defend anyone's criticisms of your "evidence", then that doesn't even make a conversation. It makes a point, a counterpoint, and then you failing to make another point.

So we wind up here.

You destroy your own thread.

If anyone is brothers, Serapy, it's Zell and Seifer. They have a typical sibling quarrel and both have blonde hair.
And they both have the same taste in men (Squall).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McLovin'

If anyone is brothers, Serapy, it's Zell and Seifer. They have a typical sibling quarrel and both have blonde hair.
And they both have the same taste in men (Squall).

---

Actually, that does sound much more believable. Now THIS is interesting.

Basically we can assume since the onus is not on us proving this but on him disproving this:

Serapy made his thread, I tore his argument to pieces as Raistlin pointed out. Yes I did make assumptions but my assumptions were far more logical than the assumptions Serapy made, It's also true I pointed out the stupidity of your argument Serapy, though I've not outright called you stupid in this thread. Everyone else pointed out how silly a theory this was and how he didn't have evidence to prove his point. Serapy then tries to back track on it saying the theory was never intended to be valid and attempts to argue that we're all idiots for having believed his theory to be a serious attempt at all.

And since the onus is on you to disprove the above paragraph completely which you can't because face it my theory is far more believable and perceivable than your defense could manage to be...Serapy enjoy!

I think the point of this thread is to have you people respond to it, the rest doesn't really matters! :bigsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Then why bother even bringing it up? If you're not going to defend anyone's criticisms of your "evidence", then that doesn't even make a conversation. It makes a point, a counterpoint, and then you failing to make another point.

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You didn't read the thread...

Let me quote Vyk:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Clogging the forum with crackpot theories at least keeps it alive and instigates discussion

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And I agreed with that by replying back to him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

You destroy your own thread.

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In your dreams.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Actually, that does sound much more believable. Now THIS is interesting.

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Taking a thing not seriously doesn't make it interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IceGlow

Basically we can assume since the onus is not on us proving this but on him disproving this:

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No, because you didn't show any evidence in the game that states "Seifer and Squall are not brothers". So, why should I agrue back? You expressed your view of point in your first post, so agruing with a different view of point is pointless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IceGlow

Serapy made his thread, I tore his argument to pieces as Raistlin pointed out.

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Not really. Just because you're expressing a different opinion, whether it's logical or not, it doesn't mean my opinion is torn apart. And it's funny how you think that mentioning Raistlin will make your agruement more valid. :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by '.ayGlow

Yes I did make assumptions but my assumptions were far more logical than the assumptions Serapy made

---

Over exaggeration, again. Over exaggerating yourself doesn't change anything. In fact, it gives you less credibility. Moaning that I'm wrong because you think you're right. :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IceGlow

It's also true I pointed out the stupidity of your argument Serapy, though I've not outright called you stupid.

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Oh, really...?

Quote:

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Everyone else pointed out how silly a theory this was and how he didn't have evidence to prove his point. Serapy then tries to back track on it saying the theory was never intended to be valid and attempts to argue that we're all idiots for having believed his theory to be a serious attempt at all.

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It's not my fault that you fell for it.
Seifer and Squall being brothers, seriously? :lol:

Quote:

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And since the onus is on you to disprove the above paragraph completely which you can't because face it

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I already have. It's in my first post. And you didn't disprove it because you didn't state any evidence that says "Seifer and Squall are not brothers" within the game.

Quote:

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my theory is far more believable and perceivable than your defense could manage to be...Serapy enjoy!

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Oh, really? Then why did you give up arguing with me in the other threads? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Oh, really? Then why did you give up arguing with me in the other threads? ;)

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Because it's a complete waste of time, because not a single response of yours makes sense. I'm out of these threads forever. Peace!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Oh, really? Then why did you give up arguing with me in the other threads? ;)

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Because it's a complete waste of time, because not a single response of yours makes sense. I'm out of these threads forever. Peace!

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That post has nothing to do with you, but anyways, of course it's a waste of time if you didn't read all of my posts in this thread and then quote me. :)

Every single of my posts (over 1,000 posts of mine belong to this VIII section) doesn't make sense? What's up with people, including you, and thier overexaggerated statements?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Oh, really? Then why did you give up arguing with me in the other threads? ;)

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Because it's a complete waste of time, because not a single response of yours makes sense.

---

Ok I trimmed her response for my own purposes but Serapy you wanted an answer why I give up on you it's this. You don't make sense. Now you provided no evidence from the game to support your claim Seifer and Squall we're brothers and yet claim my theory about you making this thread which has far more viability since everyone reaing it can read your responses and posts. Needs me to provide evidence...I will provide evidence as soon as you do mate until then peace and enjoy your sad little troll moments alone.

You gave up arguing with me just because I didn't make sense? Explain. Otherwise, you're just using excuses to prove your point.

I've already had provided evidence. The points in my first post actually happened in the game. The only difference is that I connected these dots (hints).

There's no hardcore evidence that the game explictly states "Seifer and Squall are brothers". The same goes for the opposite. You won't find it,
either.

I'm not actually trolling. You are. How? You always over exaggerate your statements. :)

You're not trolling. You're just wrong. You don't have actual GOOD facts to support yourself.

Just because they both gave scars to themselves at the start of the game, doesn't mean they're brothers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkBahamut

You're not trolling. You're just wrong. You don't have actual GOOD facts to support yourself.

Just because they both gave scars to themselves at the start of the game, doesn't mean they're brothers.

---

I'm wrong because I have a different opinion? Lol, what. These are good hints. So, why don't you give me good hints that they are not brothers? Go on.

And disprove that the scars made them brothers. The game only shows you that they get these scars and that's it... So "doesn't mean they are brothers" doesn't work here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I've already had provided evidence. The points in my first post actually happened in the game. The only difference is that I connected these dots (hints).

---

This...

Quote:

---

There's no hardcore evidence that the game explictly states "Seifer and Squall are brothers". The same goes for the opposite. You won't find it,
either.

---

contradicts this.

How can you claim that you provided evidence and then say there's no (hardcore) evidence "that the game explicitly states 'Seifer and Squall are brothers'"? Evidence is irrefutable proof. I know you understand this as you've just said that there is no evidence but you still claim that your theory is evidence.

When I think of evidence I think of something that holds up in court. So let's pretend we're in a courtroom. You claim that Seifer and Squall are brothers and both have been summoned to court to defend themselves.

Exhibit A: Both are gundlade users.

Exhibit B: Both have facial scars.

Neither of those two examples are going to convince a jury that they're brothers. That's like saying a person who wears the same size shoe as me is my brother. And concerning the facial scars, that has nothing to do with DNA. Hair color is a result of DNA; eye color is a result of DNA; having your father's chin and your mother's dimples is a result of DNA. Scars are not genetic, and you witness at the beginning of the game how they received their scars.

Exhibit C: Same taste in women.

Exhibit D: Similar facial feature but Seifer could have dyed his hair.

Again, having the same taste in women is not a result of DNA. I'm sure a good majority of the men on this forum have the same taste in women as I do. Women aren't bugs, there aren't thousands of different species of women to running around so it's not very strange that there should be two people interested in the same woman.

And the facial features aren't surprising. It's a game, the same person made all their models. I'm a writer and I find it tough to not be monotonous in describing the way a person looks much less envisioning it. And Seifer dying his hair is a huge stretch. You're giving a character created by someone else more background information than needed.

I don't want to address your other points because, quite frankly, I don't understand most of the sentences you decided to smash together.

I'll bring up my own understanding of the game though. Seifer and Squall are rivals. They hate each other because they have so much in common, it makes for an interesting gaming experience. It's like Cloud and Sephiroth, they are exactly the same but strive towards different goals. Another good example to use would be the rivalry between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri. They are actually the complete opposite but in a way exactly the same. I won't get into that as this is an VIII thread and not a Forgotten Realms thread, but my point is it's just supposed to be good story telling.

I'm inclined to believe that if something is not directly mentioned then it is not so. Hints are another thing entirely. If it were hinted at then I might entertain the notion, but it wasn't. Your "hints" as you call them are just a result of reading too much into this.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...y/e62e37f6.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I've already had provided evidence. The points in my first post actually happened in the game. The only difference is that I connected these dots (hints).

---

This...

Quote:

---

There's no hardcore evidence that the game explictly states "Seifer and Squall are brothers". The same goes for the opposite. You won't find it,
either.

---

contradicts this.

---

There's a difference between evidence and "hardcore" evidence.

The points I listed in my first post have actually had happened in the game. These are evidence (Squall's scar is evidence, etc.) I connect all these dots to draw a conclusion that Squall and Seifer are brothers.

But there's no hardcore evidence that supports the whole thing, because the game never stated "Seifer and Squall are brothers." in a dialogue or something. The same goes for the opposite. The term hardcore is used for emphasis. Hardcore evidence... is something that's a lot more powerful than a hint (hint such as image, non-dialogue or whatever) So, I'm not contradicting anything...

Zell don´t show love interest on Quistis but on a girl with a pigtail(like Quistis).
Quistis in two rare occasions show love on Zell.
But she is an intelligent instructor and he is an irrational and inpulsive student.
Because of this she don´t figure her love.
They are in love on the subconscious but don´t perceive it due to various circumstances.
Quistis don´t love Squall.She "loves" Zell´s father.

Seifer´s romantic dream has nothing to do with Rinoa.
Seifer will not be closer to Rinoa just because he is the Sorceress Knight.
He will be closer to Edea.
If that is not obvious to you I don´t know.

But Edea probably don´t love Seifer.
She loves Laguna.

Despite Irvine being a ladies man he interacts with Selphie more than the others.
How do I know he will marry Selphie?

If you recall Squall don´t remember Irvine at the orphanage.
Did you ever wonder why?
Because on the other timeline Irvine meets Selphie when they are grown up and Squall is old and die before that.
So he never meets Irvine.
At the orphanage their bonds are the result of their subconscious memory of the other timeline.
As grown ups they only remember those with which they had a bond.

You belong in fanfiction FE!
No but in all seriousness...No, just no.

My thread was edited.
I gave some evidence there.

I think my explanation of Seifer´s romantic dream was obvious.

Sefiers dream was to be a sorceresses knight, he only found out that Rinoa was a sorceress on the end of disc two, when Ulti posses her and tells seifer to dig some big thing up. Then i'm lost after that... can you explain it again :bigsmile:

It was a ROMANTIC dream.
This must mean something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serapy

I've already had provided evidence. The points in my first post actually happened in the game. The only difference is that I connected these dots (hints).

---

This...

Quote:

---

There's no hardcore evidence that the game explictly states "Seifer and Squall are brothers". The same goes for the opposite. You won't find it,
either.

---

contradicts this.

---

There's a difference between evidence and "hardcore" evidence.

---

The only difference is that you've added the word 'hardcore'. Evidence is already a pretty strong word, there are no varying degrees of evidence. Let me make an example; I'm a hardcore human being. There are normal human beings, yes, but I'm a hardcore human being. Does that make any sense to you? Evidence is evidence just as humans are humans, adding the word hardcore does not make it any more extreme.

Quote:

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The points I listed in my first post have actually had happened in the game. These are evidence (Squall's scar is evidence, etc.) I connect all these dots to draw a conclusion that Squall and Seifer are brothers.

---

You're right, a lot of it did it did happen in the game. No one's saying it didn't. But you've gone above and beyond what we all saw. Seifer dying his hair? Really? How could you have come to that conclusion? I realize it's to strengthen your theory but you can't make something like that up. You've accused a good amount of people in this thread for "over exaggerating" but this is a prime example of over exaggeration.

Also, Future Esthar what is the point of your posts in this thread? As far as I can tell you're fighting theory with theory and your drawing attention away from Serapy's topic. I would think you'd be more successful in making your point and keeping this conversation/debate less confusing by making your own thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

It was a ROMANTIC dream.
This must mean something.

---

His loins were frothing. FROTHING!

LOL, Future Esthar I love you haha :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Future Esthar

It was a ROMANTIC dream.
This must mean something.

---

Maybe he just had a thing for sorceresses :love:

Quote:

---

His loins were frothing. FROTHING!

---

Could you explain yourself better? Like using synonyms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Christmas

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...r-squall01.jpg

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OMG YES

Rinoa represents both of her white wings and black wings on her back at certain times. So, doesn't Seifer strike you as being the light version, just like the white wings? And Squall being the black version, just like the black wings? I'm basing this on thier appearances.

I think Seifer and Squall are the same person. Maybe Squall is the real one and that Seifer is his subconscious. Squall tries to overcome his emotional issues by beating Seifer in his own mind. As you may be aware, Seifer as a subconscious is so powerful that he can even interact with the others straight from Squall's mind. Like a virus. It's also like Ultimecia reading Squall's mind and then pulling Griever out of himself.

This is fantastic. I mean, an amazing game like Final Fantasy VIII couldn't get any more fantastical.

Yeah and NORG is a giant booger from Cid's nose. He placed on all his evil subconscious into it and it took form into a giant booger.

A subconscious can't interact with real people!!! This game isn't a dream!

2) Seifer and Squall both use swords. They both have facial scars. This proves that thier genes were designed in the same way by their parents.

Scars aren't genetic. If you watched the beginning, you'd know that they scarred each other while training.

4) Seifer and Rinoa were in a relationship. This proves that Squall and Seifer have the same taste for women.

Taste in women also is not genetic. Everybody in my family has different taste in boyfriends and girlfriends, and I have very similar taste as most of my friends. That has nothing to do with genetics.

5) Seifer had a childhood dream, who says Squall didn't? Squall was shy and insecure, so of course he won't express himself fully...

I don't even understand your point here.

6) Squall and Seifer both have similar facials; thier mouths, eyes, jaws, and eyebrows. Except thier hairs... but I believe that Seifer dyed his hair blonde (yes, even in his youthhood!)

Another theory with no reasoning behind it. And they look similar because they're not real. It's a lot harder to design people and have them look different when they're not real.

7) There may be some preposterous claims made by Kiros/Ward that Squall looks like Laguna. But if he mentioned Seifer, it wouldn't make sense, right? Why would a friend mention an enemy's name when it's relevant? We beaten Seifer.. and go like "You and Seifer just look like Laguna..." Anyways, if there's no hardcore evidence within the game that Squall is actually Laguna's son, then the same goes for Seifer. The concept of Squall being Laguna's son was born from a hint. Keyword: hint!

There are hints that Squall is Laguna's son, but no hints that Seifer is. If Seifer really was Laguna's son, they would have hints in there to make you believe so. Without hints, anything could be assumed. Even something crazy like Rinoa and Quistis got it on but Rinoa doesn't remember because she was drunk and Quistis forgot because of the GF. Why don't you just write fan fiction instead of posting your ideas here? I'm sure they would be very interesting. On that note, this isn't entertaining enough to keep saying why this isn't a good enough argument so I'll just leave it at that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Not really. Answer this question yourself, if VIII wasn't ambiguous, then why are people still debating about it on various sites, such as here and gamefaqs? Also, if it wasn't ambiguous, then why are there so many explanations on the guides/FAQ page of gamefaqs (e.g. Time Plot) ?

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It gives people something to talk about it regardless if it has any point other than killing time. Just because people like debating things doesn't make it ambiguous. It just means they misunderstood what they saw or heard. Not everything is a gray area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Not really. Answer this question yourself, if VIII wasn't ambiguous, then why are people still debating about it on various sites, such as here and gamefaqs? Also, if it wasn't ambiguous, then why are there so many explanations on the guides/FAQ page of gamefaqs (e.g. Time Plot) ?

---

It gives people something to talk about it regardless if it has any point other than killing time. Just because people like debating things doesn't make it ambiguous. It just means they misunderstood what they saw or heard. Not everything is a gray area.

---

Nope. Let me rephrase, if VIII wasn't ambiguous, then more people would understand VIII more clear, since they always look forward to answers straight away. But they couldn't, because there are important things in VIII that are subtle or lacking more information. E.g. Ultimecia lacks her backstory and she's one of the most important characters in VIII.

And if you have ever played VIII before, you would know that it's more demanding than other FF games in terms of things like this one.

So, all of that doesn't mean us players misunderstand the game...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BardTard

Scars aren't genetic. If you watched the beginning, you'd know that they scarred each other while training.

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That's my point. If two minds know the coords of something very well (e.g. where to attack), then they are likely to be identical somehow. Genes in same families are more identical than different familes. Therefore...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BardTard

I don't even understand your point here.

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A brother usually copys his own brother's actions in some way. Having a dream and all...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BardTard

Another theory with no reasoning behind it. And they look similar because they're not real. It's a lot harder to design people and have them look different when they're not real.

---

It's reasonable, actually. When a designer draws multiple characters, and if two of his characters happen to be more identical to each other than the others, then that designer must have had thought of the same thing at the time. It's also reasonable if it happens to be a coincidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BardTard

There are hints that Squall is Laguna's son, but no hints that Seifer is. If Seifer really was Laguna's son, they would have hints in there to make you believe so.

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Subtle hints.

And since VIII is subtle, not clear, ambiguous, then it would be stupid of SE to throw words or explict hints into your mouth saying "Laguna is definitely Seifer's father". That would be an extra inconsistency, my friend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BardTard

Without hints, anything could be assumed.

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Graphics are not hints? What are you talking about?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BardTard

Even something crazy like Rinoa and Quistis got it on but Rinoa doesn't remember because she was drunk and Quistis forgot because of the GF.

---

Um, unlikely. Rinoa never looked drunk in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BardTard

Why don't you just write fan fiction instead of posting your ideas here?

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This isn't fan fiction material. I've brought points that actually came from the game and I just happened to connect these dots altogether in order to say that they are brothers. To write a fan fiction, you have to make up something completely... without connecting such dots...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BardTard[/QUOTE

I'm sure they would be very interesting. On that note, this isn't entertaining enough to keep saying why this isn't a good enough argument so I'll just leave it at that.

---

Then learn how to add me on your ignore list. Very simple to do!

No sorry, Kevin Bacon wasn't in Footloose. :colbert:

Serapy not to be too blunt for your sensitivities. Yet...


The only people here in this forum who have discussed the theories you and FE write on these boards who are confused about the storyline of the game are you and FE!

Seriously there is nothing confusing in the VIII storyline heres a quick summation of all 4 discs of the storyline:

You play the role of Squall a mercenary cadet who upon graduating from his cadet scholam program in to the mercenary force SeeD is assigned a squad of 2 members (Selphie and Zell) and assigned to help a ressistance fraction (rebels) in a neighbouring country called Timber. Timber has been under Gabaldian rule for over 17 years since it was invaded and lost to the crushing power of the Gabaldian Army. You've met by this point Ellone though you don't seem to know her 2 times. Once when you were in the medical bay waiting for Quistis your instructor to come and get you and once when you saved her from being killed by a powerful monster in the training arena. You've also encountered Biggs and Wedge, you'll see more of all these characters later.

On the way to Timber you pass out and have a weird dream where you are in the role of a Gabaldian soldier during the invasion of Timber all those years ago. Laguna the Squad leader is hopelessly lost and Kiros and Ward his subordinates make note that it's not the first time they've been lost. After a brief run through Timber you end up in Deling City, Gabaldia. You meet a pianist in a hotel bar called Julia. Laguna has been a fan of her music for quite some time, he's also a fan of her too he fancies her a lot and she makes him nervous which is shown by the fact that whenever he gets nervous an old war wound plays up and his leg cramps. After being invited to her room to talk for a while you get called away to follow new orders. Upon waking from the dream you realize not just you (Squall) had the dream but the entire party dreamt the same thing. Squall doesn't know what caused it but rules out nothing and so forbids the use of the SeeD private car for future journeys incase it was an anti-SeeD attack of some sorts.

Upon arrival in Timber you learn that the ressistance faction is led by the girl you met at your graduation ball. You plot with her to kidnap the president of Gabaldia on his way to a train station. The plan goes wrong you end up with a double who after being attacked transforms in to a creation no longer alive but a zombie. You kill it and go to find information on what happened and how they anticipated your plan. You discover where the real president is but not why or how they found out about the plot. Guess your intel sucked. The next plan is to do "something" which could well include busting in and kicking ass and dying in the attempt. However just as you're about to do something you discover that Seifer a former cadet of SeeD who is also Squall's main rival in training has broken free of the detention center and is in Timber, in fact he's executed plan A and is inside the TV station kicking ass and taking hostages, namely President Deling. Quistis an instructor of Garden and member of SeeD orders you via TV to make your way there, she needs help in dealing with this situation and you just got new orders. Orders being orders you bust in and Zell being a bit of an idiot gives Deling too much information. Seifer disappears when the Sorceress Edea appears and takes him away after magically forcing you to your knees.

You've been revealed and am currently being hunted all over the town by the Gabaldian Army, you were after all involved in 2 assasination attempts! Quistis is stuck with you and so she joins the party. You formulate a plan to escape, protocol dictates you head for the nearest Garden which happens to be further in to enemy territory but should provide you with a safe haven until you can escape back to Balamb. With the help of the remaining resistance members you escape, leaving them to find another way out of the town though they assure you they'll be ok they're masters at this sort of thing. Just before you make it to Gabaldia Garden you have another dream where you collapse this time whoever is in the party with Squall becomes Kiros and Ward. The remaining party member is left to stand guard over your prostrated forms in the middle of a monster infested wood alone.

Arriving at Gabaldia Garden you're informed by Rajin and Fujin that there are "new orders" for you inside Rajin and Fujin are messengers for Garden and not officially SeeD Cadets or members but train alongside students and are also Seifer's only friends in Garden. Martine the garden master of Gabaldia Garden gives you new orders shortly after you hear the news that Seifer was tried and executed for his attack on President Deling. You are to assasinate by means of sniper sorceress Edea. You don't have a marksman and so Martine supplies you with one of Gabladia Garden's finest students (though not a full SeeD member, since to become a member of SeeD you need to go to Balamb Garden to take the exam, see Selphie) in the art of sniping Irvine Kinneas.

Irvine is a ladies man or so he wishes. He successfully offends Quistis, puts Rinoa off and freaks out Selphie in minutes having joined the party and gone to the nearby train station to go Deling City to do your mission. Squall and Zell who until now have been the only males in the party are both kinda "what the hell?" about him and Zell would dearly like to kick his ass from the way he postures much like he does when Seifer calls him names.

In Deling City you eventually after a detour to go acquire the identification number of a SeeD cadet who went to see the general and went missing, meet the man who has hired SeeD to kill the sorceress, It's a general of the Gabaldian Army who fought in the sorceress war against Esthar which ended 17 years ago. He also happens to be Rinoa's father. He immediately forbids Rinoa from taking part in the mission it's simply too dangerous and whats more, she's his daughter if the mission fails of the squad is captured, then Rinoa would be like a giant red marker to his front door. He walks you through the plan, it's simple at 8pm Edea will be under a famous landmark, an archway with gates on either side. There is a direct line of sight from the Presidential Palace, that is where Irvine takes his shot. Should he fail the SeeD squad will attack head on led by Squall.

The attack goes wrong, horribly wrong. First Quistis having been rude to Rinoa abandons her post and her squad (Selphie and Zell) go with her to apologize to Rinoa. Rinoa however is not in the mansion she's escaped before the door locks and is enacting her own plan to stop Edea, tricking Edea in to taking a Odine Bangle as a gift. Quistis' squad ends up locked in the mansion and the procession begins. Rinoa meanwhile ends up being captured rather easily by Edea who is in no mood for playing around. Edea murders President Deling (for real this time) and assumes control of the nation to crowds of adulating civillians. She then sets two statues converted in to the mythical monsters they represent to deal with the pesky Rinoa. Squall and Irvine have been in place and noticed Rinoa and the monsters, they know they have to get to her first especially since Rinoa seems to be out of it in some kind of trance because of Edea. As they slip past Edea's procession in to the palace they discover something else equally disturbing: Seifer is not dead in fact he's Edea's knight. After rescuing Rinoa and hiding in the clock tower ready the game cuts back to Quistis, Selphie and Zell still trapped in Caraway's mansion. If they don't get free and in position in 20 minutes or less Edea will not get caught in the trap and they'll fail the mission. Cue much more frantic searching the room eventually resulting in them finding a hidden passage to the sewers where they manage to find a way back to the arch's gatehouse.

The squads finally being in position and ready make their strike. The gate squad drops the portculli trapping Edea but Irvine has gone and lost it, he's all cool when he's not under pressure but he can't handle the fact that one shot, one bullet changes everything. Squall needs him to fire and so pep talks him in to taking the shot. Predictably Edea stops the bullet with a well timed shield spell. She had way too long to prepare for a trap due to Irvine taking time to be talked round. Squall knew it would happen and so leads his one man assault knowing he must not only face Edea but first go through Seifer who has been pretty much his equal in training.

Squall gets past Seifer and is joined by Rinoa and Irvine (who is seeking repentence for failure earlier) to face Edea. Edea is not amused by this and after a while shoots a bolt of ice through Squall. Fade to black end of disc 1.

Disc 2 begins with a dream of Laguna. He's been in Winhil a sleepy town on the Gabaldian continent healing since he got injured last. His squad was pensioned off on injury and so he has no real life left except for doing the job the Gabaldian army soldiers posted there won't do which is to try and keep the town clear of monsters. He is clearly very taken with the woman who nursed him back to health and the orphan girl she looks after Ellone. Kiros shows up and the two end up talking with Raine, it seems that Ward never regained his voice and Julia the pianist Laguna met in the first Laguna dream did become a singer who released a famous song called "Eyes on Me" which was clearly inspired by her emotions for Laguna. In fact she apparently fell in love with a soldier who went off to war but never came back so she eventually married a young rising general named Caraway according to Julia. Laguna decides it was possibly for the best before putting the past behind him and focusing on his job of keeping the town clear of monsters and tells Kiros he can earn his keep by helping him. After much monster hunting and talk with Kiros the dream ends.

Squall awakens in a prison cell. His wounds have been healed and he's quite clearly disorientated whats more he's about to get tortured by Seifer for the true meaning behind SeeD. He's told that Garden is going to be destroyed but Edea wants to know what the meaning of SeeD is. Eventually Squall passes out.

The game shifts focus to Zell, Selphie and Quistis who are also in prison. Irvine and Rinoa are missing and Selphie and Zell had both experienced dreams about Kiros and Ward. Selphie had seen the same things as Squall did in the dream world but through Kiros' eyes. Zell on the other hand had seen through Ward's eyes and therefore knew Ward was bored outta his brain working in a prison...more to the point it was this prison! So Zell therefore through memories of Ward's working life knows more about this prison than most. It's not like SeeD members to take being imprisoned lightly and so since Selphie and Quistis need weapons and magic to fight whereas Zell a martial artist is a weapon himself when it comes to the plan to escape he goes out to recover their equipment and to work out a way of doing it. Accompanied by one of the prison janitor type creatures a Moomba. Zell shortly finds some G-soldiers searching through their weapons and beats them to death and steals the equipment back. After returning to the cell to give Selphie and Quistis their weapons they're set upon by Biggs and Wedge from the mission to Dollet. They kick their asses but this time the alarm is raised. Therefore in the chaos and confusion Zell's knowledge is the main thing keeping them alive long enough to try and find Squall. Squall is helped by the Moomba's who strangely keep calling him "Laguna" the only human word they can apparently say Seifer having left to attend to the pressing matters of blowing up Garden.

Eventually the squad is reunited with Squall but Rinoa and Irvine are still missing. Then as they're pinned down by machine gun fire and considering their next move, Irvine storms in with style. Well he would have had Rinoa not kicked him in the ass. Turns out he actually somehow escaped in all the confusion of the situation back in Deling City and so spent time hiding out at Caraway's mansion before Caraway sent him to collect Rinoa from prison. Not the rest, just her. She however was not about to abandon the others and so under threats of violence and great pain made Irvine turn back to help them.

Reunited the squad eventually make it out of prison. They see a salvo of missiles streak off in to the sky from a train station in the desert. The missiles Rinoa says are aimed at Trabia and soon missiles will be fired at Balamb. Selphie formally requests the chance to lead a squad to the missile base, she failed to help Trabia Garden but she wants to do her best for Balamb. Squall after a minutes thought agrees with her that something needs doing to put that missile base out of commission. He dispatches 2 squad members with her and takes the other two back to Balamb to warn Cid the head master and have Garden evacuated.

Selphie's squad infiltrates the missile base as G-soldiers and manages to sow confusion and dissent amonst the soldiers at the base. However they can't stop the launch they can only screw with the guidance so the missiles are much more likely to miss the intended target. Eventually however as they attempt to set the detonation sequence for the missile base's auto-destruct they're compromised and must fight their way free. Just as they're about to get out they get caught by the base commanders again this time in a massive tank. Selphie's squad manages to defeat the tank but cannot open the doors for the missile base. It seems Selphie's squad will die. After a few final ruminations that Squall must hate her and she's a failure the base explodes leaving the player to think that the characters in that squad are dead.

Meanwhile in record time Squall has managed to get back to Garden in Balamb with his squad, even though they had to cross all of Gabaldia and Timber and an ocean as wanted fugitives! He's back and looking to give his warning but it appears Garden is having a crisis. Students are fighting students and trying to arrest SeeD members on orders from the Faculty who claim to be following the true master of Garden a being named NORG. Squall needs to see Headmaster Cid so he tracks down Quistis' best friend and the leader of the Ciddites in Garden Xu. Xu eventually gets them to Cid who has been hiding in his office all the time. Squall makes his report and Cid rightfully concludes that evacuating Garden will take too much time but there might be something else more useful than evacuation. He wants to go to the MD level of Garden a basement level deep in the bowels of the place which might even have monsters. Squall convinces Cid that a squad of SeeD ought to do it instead, more importantly his squad since they're not involved in the dispute between the two factions. Cid agrees and sends Squall.

Squall manages to get through the MD level and triggers some machinery not really knowing what to expect, some sort of shield generators to kick in? No it turns out Garden can fly, it pulls itself outta the ground and rides on the blast wave of missiles what would have hit if it hadn't been for Selphie's squad. Thing is, theres the town of Balamb ahead and Garden is going to hit it if Squall can't steer it clear not that Squall even knows what he's doing he's the only one with a hope apparently. Squall somehow gets Garden to turn last minute and it floats out to sea where it becomes a floating island.

Squall is eventually called upon by the Faculty (all hostilities stopped in Garden once it started flying) to go see Garden Master NORG. As he goes there he sees Cid acting pitifully. Cid leaves and NORG turns his attention to Squall. Apparently Squall shouldn't have escaped and saved Garden but then Martine was never meant to use Squall for the mission for Caraway. NORG wishes to give Squall's squad over to Edea as a peace offering and to do that he intends to kill them himself first. Squall isn't having this one bit and so with his squad kicks NORG's ass and promptly leaves, the room. Like the faculty could stop him if they tried!

After several days drifting and doing not much other than being antisocial Squall is interrupted by one of the squad members, depending on who went to the missile base. If Rinoa is around she will ask for a tour since she's not actually a SeeD and doesn't know her way around (not that she hasn't had days to manage to go look at the directory and can find her way from her room to Squalls easily enough) it's clearly a trap to get him to spend time with her. Later Squall gets called to the balcony near the classroom he took lessons in. Seems some other soldiers calling themselves the White SeeD have come for a woman they call Ellone. Cid asks Squall to go get her from the library and you finally get to properly meet Ellone and discover the dreams of Laguna are her sending you back in to the past to view the events of the world through the eyes of Laguna, Kiros and Ward though to what purpose she doesn't explain. Ellone leaves with the White SeeD.

Shortly afterwards Garden which is completely out of control crashes in to a place called Fishermans Horizon. Cid sends Squall ashore to request help, apologize for the damage and to investigate he wants him to see the world for what it is. Squall does so and strangely finds Martine in FH too turns out Edea siezed Gabaldia Garden, turned it in to her base of operations and Martine had nowhere else to go. Mayor Dobe agrees to help Garden, after all they helped build it in the first place. FH is a mini artificial island in the middle of a transcontinental rail bridge between the Gabaldian and Estharian continents. The inhabitants are generally speaking engineers who for one reason or another left their homelands and ended up there living isolated from both countries. It's peaceful really or rather it is until a Gabaldian attack force shows up! Squall is caught up in the middle of it and whilst Dobe doesn't want them to use violence Squall ends the invasion of FH the best way he knows how. In the end of the battle they fight this beaten up tank what looks strangely familiar. After defeating the tank which then reverses off a sheer drop in to the ocean surprisingly Selphie's squad climbs out of the wreckage! Reunited they return to Garden.

After a garden festival which takes place in FH and the repairs to Garden are done and Nida a cadet who graduated at the same time as Squall, Selphie and Zell is taught to pilot it Cid passes over the mantle of command to Squall. Theres a twofold reason Garden it seems is in a state of war and a headmaster is not what it needs now, it needs a General and regardless of his antisocial behaviour, aloof manner or general not wanting the job Squall got it! The second reason is a bit of a shocker considering Cid has tasked Squall with assasinating her: Edea is Cid's wife! He wants you to kill his estranged wife! Squall's first port of call is Balamb which now has something what looks strangely like Gabaldia Garden floating above the water outside of it in the bay of the harbour! Landing nearby Squall and a squad infiltrate the town with the help of Zell who's adoptive mother lives there. They discover Fujin and Rajiin are there searching for something for Seifer who is working for Edea. It all boils down to a big ass kicking and Fujn and Rajiin flee Balamb.

Selphie then asks to go to Trabia, she knows it got hit but she would like to see what happened. Squall agrees, it's only fair. They go there, turns out Trabia is a cold isolated place and Garden is really about the only thing there apart from some shumii's who in a voluntary quest explain even more about Laguna and also about Moombas. Trabia Garden is a wreck, so many dead and so many gone never to return. It's also where Irvine decides to reveal a nuclear bomb of a bombshell. "Hey guys, theres a reason I choked back there in Deling and I couldn't believe you guys didn't realize/know this" he explains they all (including Seifer) grew up in an orphanage together and that Sorceress Edea was actually the matron of the place and thats kinda why he choked. So Cid is married to Edea but never told Squall this information, Squalls a little pissed but Irvine kinda remembers where the orphanage is and so they decide to head there.

Arriving near the orphanage they see something ominious, Gabaldia Garden beat them there, or maybe they were just waiting it's all irrelevant they're here and they mean business but then so does Nida. Battle commences and the SeeD cadets and remaining SeeD of Balamb Garden aren't ready for it and are getting their asses handed to them. Cue some inspirational talk and a plan to assault the enemy back and. The SeeDs pull themselves together for round 2! Rescuing Rinoa along the way Squall battles his way inside the G-Garden which seems to have been rammed outta the sky by Nida! Go Nida! Round 3 of Squall x Seifer begins and this time you have allies. Seifer is kicked to the curb but not before he unleashes a powerful attack on you. Edea meanwhile with a taste for the theatrical teleports away to the room below a theatre/clasroom/conference room. Squall and squad rush down to battle her only for her to drop through the ceiling in a shower of glass. They kick her arse and she goes down only for her to suddenly beg them to stop. Ignoring the standing orders from Cid to kill Edea, Squall does so but Rinoa collapses in a coma like state. Fade to black end of Disc 2!

It's Disc 3, Several days pass and Squall decides the only way to get answers is to go straight to Edea and Cid who are now living in the ruins of their old orphanage. Turns out Edea wasn't really evil, she was posessed by another sorceress from the future called ultimecia and that she thinks ultimecia is a threat still and that also the answer to Rinoa condition lies with the White SeeD and Ellone. The White SeeD sent Ellone to Esthar! God, they're a secretive bunch and hard to find, you also find out that the resistance fraction members who stayed behind in Timber are alive and well on the White SeeD ship.

Squall runs away from Garden with Rinoa whom he has fallen hopelessly in love with over the course of the story so far. (this makes less sense if Rinoa went on the missile base mission) He can't live without her and so will do anything to save her but still hasn't learnt the value of friendship. Eventually he is caught up to by the rest of the squad who apparently left Garden in FH. Also of note, Edea came with them since she wants to see Doctor Odine in Esthar about surpressing or stripping her powers so she might never again be posessed by Ultimecia. After a long journey and getting lost they eventually find a chute high up a wall of air climing an invisible ladder they find an access tunnel...destination? Apparently, Esthar!

Along the way the Laguna story has developed further though I'm doing one big summation of this: Ellone it seems is kidnapped by the Estharian Soldiers, even though there was Gabaldian Soldiers there to STOP that kind of thing! Laguna and Kiros have reunited with Ward and begin searching for her, promising to return to Raine when they find her. Laguna has become obsessed, he did everything to get more money, starred in a movie even about the sorceresses knight where he battled a ruby dragon on camera with a gunblade ect. He eventually ends up in Esthar where he finds Dr Odine has Ellone and is investigating her for Sorceress Adel who is the one responsible for the war against Gabaldia! He agrees to help a resistance movement end the war and Adel for help in return of getting to Ellone. After rescuing Ellone he makes good on his agreement to help the rebels eventually tricking Adel in to a trap and freezing her.

In Esthar Squall and co are greeted by a messenger who agrees to take them to see Odine and to talk to the president about letting them see Ellone. Odine requests some time to study Rinoa's condition and agrees to send her on ahead to Lunar Station where Squall should head when ready. Turns out to see Ellone Squall has to go in to space with just one more squad member, it's a 6 shooter of space capsules! Squall chooses to take Quistis with him and heads up to space. In space you meet Pierre who is studying a rare occurrence. It turns out monsters aren't natural to the planet, they come from the moon in an event called the Lunar Cry this is where such a mass of monsters is present on the moon they're capable of launching themselves from the surface of the moon across space and of surviving entry into the atmosphere it's incredibly dangerous and Squall just got a front row seat.

Squall gets to finally ask Ellone about the Laguna dreams and such properly and also the situation with Rinoa the ophanage ect, It is during this period of the game that Ellone will finally tell Squall that Laguna's hunt for Ellone led to him missing the birth of his child and death of his wife, Raine. Ellone had hoped to change the past to make it better but realized her power couldn't do that anymore than ultimecia could have if she posessed normal beings with her Ellone-Junction machine. At the same time, things get real on the surface Zell, Irvine, Selphie and Edea are faced with a crisis. Odine has detected Lunatic Pandora a project of his encountered by the player in the past during the second Laguna dream. Seems the Pandora is full of Gabaldians who are hell bent on causing trouble led by Seifer! Zell leads a party to intercept and manages to get aboard the Pandora only to end up ejected by some kind of sentient crystal structure. In space Rinoa suddenly gets up in a trance and won't come too in fact she magically flings Squall away whenever he tries to get close or touch her. She puts herself in an airlock and puts on a suit before ejecting herself to the vacumn of space. Being in a suit she survives the vacumn and heads over to the reason for Lunar Station, Adel still frozen but still alive is in space. Rinoa starts a defrosting program which allows Adel to become concious in the ice. With the aid of Lunatic Pandora, The Lunar Cry is drawn to Esthar and obliterates the Lunar station which was evacuated just in time. Adel is carried by the Lunar Cry right to Lunatic Pandora.

Squall in space plummetting towards safety decides he wants to go on a suicide mission to save Rinoa. Quistis lets him go. So there in space air running out, drifting Rinoa now back to herself. thinks she's about to die and all she can think about is Squall because she too is in utterly helpless love! Love makes a man do crazy things. However it seems somehow wether it be orbiting the planet or the moon or whatever a spaceship drifts by, it's abandoned but has some power still so Squall and Rinoa are saved. They go on board the spaceship and eventually point it in the direction of the planet and Esthar they need to land quick. Here they openly state their love for one another.

Upon Landing however the Estharian's deem Rinoa too dangerous, she is after all a sorceress, she must be! Adel is freed and Lunar station destroyed. They arrest her and plan to put her in ice like Adel was. Rinoa goes quietly and though Squall doesn't like it he lets her go since there isn't much he can do. Eventually his squad mates find him and ask him what happened to Rinoa he explains and they basically tell him "You've gotta save her" meanwhile Selphie and Irvine messing around somehow figure out how to fly the Ragnorak. Flying over to the place where Rinoa is going to be frozen Squall busts in and saves her, for the second time he's not surpressing his emotion he's acting upon it and he's truly happy even though technically his actions the first time should have killed him and the second time should have made him a fugitive.

Upon returning to the Ragnorak it semes the president of Esthar's envoy has called, they need to meet Envoy Kiros is comming with Ward and president Laguna to see them. Laguna explains Adel needs to be stopped and that Adel is posessed by Ultimecia. Therefore he wants Squall and his team of crack agents to go in there and do what he tried to do 17 years ago except it won't be enough to stop just Adel, Squall must stop Ultimecia who happens to be from the distant future. The only way to do this is for them to actually do what Ultimecia wants to do, activate time compression except where if Ultimecia did it only she could exist in the world If Ellone does it willingly she can put Squall and party in a time compressed world where they can meet with Ultimecia and kill her. It is here that if you speak to Kiros and Ward, Kiros interpreting for the mute Ward will say "It's a good job you look like your mother" this is some of the key supporting evidence that Squall is in fact the child of Laguna and Raine along with the words said by Ellone in space about changing the past and needing a personal connection to the person involved.

Squall assaults Lunatic Pandora and just before facing Adel he must once again go through Seifer, Seifer however kidnaps Rinoa and drags her to Adel who in some sick sort of parody Junctions Rinoa to draw upon her power. Rinoa is a victim here and in the ensuing battle, Squall had to act quickly and decisively to beat Adel whilst keeping Rinoa alive. Having done that Ellone comes up to activate time compression. End of Disc 3.

Disc 4! In time compression Squall and party must go through a weird trippy journey where they battle sorceresses of the past and future across time. Eventually they end up at the right time. Ultimecia's castle beckons and so they rush off to battle her. They fight their way through her castle and eventually come upon her where they kill her with much difficulty (well it is the final boss) and time compression begins to unravel. Following Ellone's instruction the others begin to make it back home except for Squall who ends up stuck in time compression lost. He witnesses a key moment in the past, his past he witnesses the point where Ultimecia dying gives Edea her powers. Eventually he becomes lost without Ultimecia to follow through time in time compression. Rinoa somehow saves him and they all live hapilly ever after.

Whats so confusing about that above?

Ok the rest of the story, the sub quests, the dialogue is all filler the above synopsis of the game is all filler it's not important part of learning how to rip apart a story or a poem and make educated assumptions about the definition of it is to look at what actually happens and not what is said. I reccomend reading this poem. When you can look at that poem and say with a certainty what actually happened and what is actually meant by the choice of words and how he writes them then you're not just making wild baseless assumptions but educated and informed assumptions. I can base my assumptions and information on the bare bones of what happened in the game, what events took place and what was literally said you base your assumptions off iconography what has nothing to do with anything, assumptions based on assumptiions based on meaningless iconography and interpretation of words without looking at what actually happened. Is VIII a detailed and rich world? Yes in so far as the level of detail and richness what can be achieved in it's day however is it more complicated than my synopsis above? No. I quoted in there without quoting at times, in others I paraphrased I even put thing out of order at times. However anyone who reads that and has played VIII and isn't you or FE can read it and appreciate that is exactly what happened over 4 discs of gameplay.

As I opened with, it strikes me that the only people confused about VIII is you in this thread not the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Serapy not to be too blunt for your sensitivities. Yet...

The only people here in this forum who have discussed the theories you and FE write on these boards who are confused about the storyline of the game are you and FE!

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Final Fantasy VIII has sold more than 7,000,000 copies which equal thousands of players that have played the game. So, are you saying that me and FE are the only two persons out of these thousands people that get confused by the VIII's storyline? I don't think so, buddy.

All of the VIII players or veterans don't visit this forum. At least 30+ players regularly visit this forum. Most of the majority don't post, instead, they look at posts. People have moved on, VIII is old and already gone.

So your logic is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Seriously there is nothing confusing in the VIII storyline heres a quick summation of all 4 discs of the storyline.

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Thanks for the copy & paste, but that was completely unnecessary and irrelevant.
I'm not talking about the storyline being confusing in a way that they can't be understood. I'm talking about certain elements (e.g. Ultimecia) from the storyline that cannot be deciphered fully, because they are ambiguous. Images and movements (without any text) are ambiguous and they happen to be related with the plot. Confusing as in a way that there's no straight answer.

Thank for trying, though. :)

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Whats so confusing about that above?

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No, you're the one who is confused because you don't understand my posts clearly. :)

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Ok the rest of the story, the sub quests, the dialogue is all filler the above synopsis of the game is all filler it's not important part of learning how to rip apart a story or a poem and make educated assumptions about the definition of it is to look at what actually happens and not what is said.

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Spoken language, image, and body movement important are all important. You're implying that 'dialogues' are the most important thing, never mind image or body movement. Don't be offensive, buddy.

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I reccomend reading this poem.

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I recommend reading my posts properly next time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

When you can look at that poem and say with a certainty what actually happened and what is actually meant by the choice of words and how he writes them then you're not just making wild baseless assumptions but educated and informed assumptions. I can base my assumptions and information on the bare bones of what happened in the game, what events took place and what was literally said you base your assumptions off iconography what has nothing to do with anything, assumptions based on assumptiions based on meaningless iconography and interpretation of words without looking at what actually happened.

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I already have based my assumptions on what happened (evidence) from the game, buddy. I took these bits out of the game and connect with each other to draw a conclusion that they are brothers. There's nothing wild about that.

You're just saying that my assumptions are not sound and logical simply because the whole idea of Squall and Seifer being brothers is ridiculous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Is VIII a detailed and rich world? Yes in so far as the level of detail and richness what can be achievein it's day however is it more complicated than my synopsis above? No. I quoted in there without quoting at times, in others I paraphrased I even put thing out of order at times.

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Complicated, really? Are we on the same game? VIII's been proven to be one of the most 'debating' FF games, because many users have posted threads about it to clarify something and agrue. If it wasn't complicated, then there wouldn't be many threads and FAQs regarding the game. You're just saying that it's not complicated because there's arrogance in your own being.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

As I opened with, it strikes me that the only people confused about VIII is you in this thread not the rest of us.

---

So, I'm confused because I was bored and made a theory out of something? Ok.

Carry on.

I haven't really kept up with this, but why are we all still arguing over a joke theory?

If it really was a joke theory Serapy would have said "Haha got you all! It was a joke!" and left it at that instead of continuing to argue on its behalf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Final Fantasy VIII has sold more than 7,000,000 copies which equal thousands of players that have played the game. So, are you saying that me and FE are the only two persons out of these thousands people that get confused by the VIII's storyline? I don't think so, buddy.

All of the VIII players or veterans don't visit this forum. At least 30+ players regularly visit this forum. Most of the majority don't post, instead, they look at posts. People have moved on, VIII is old and already gone.

So your logic is flawed.

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Actually look at my post and understand that properly. I am saying that the people on this forum in this thread what are confused about the story comprise of you and Future Esthar. Therefore before you go waving your pudgy little obsessive theory pointing fingers around, accusing me of not reading your posts properly, learn to read other peoples posts properly yourself. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Thanks for the copy & paste, but that was completely unnecessary and irrelevant.

I'm not talking about the storyline being confusing in a way that they can't be understood. I'm talking about certain elements (e.g. Ultimecia) from the storyline that cannot be deciphered fully, because they are ambiguous. Images and movements (without any text) are ambiguous and they happen to be related with the plot. Confusing as in a way that there's no straight answer.

Thank for trying, though. :)

---

Actually Serapy, that was personally typed out for you by me so thanks for being offensive towards my effort to help you understand the storyline and yet you call me offensive? If I was being offensive, I would probably have gotten banned years ago for what I'd love to write here about you. I would say I've been a model for restraint here, don't believe me? Well, just ask some of the other members who speak to me on other mediums what I have to say about you, I could probably make you break down and weep if I got started.

The storyline is the storyline you cannot argue with that and frankly your post doesn't actually attempt to declare me wrong on the events of the storyline. I expected as much since I am sure other members would read that and agree with me on the events of the storyline. You say yourself the storyline isn't confusing then where does your confusion come from? Clearly you seem to believe that by removing the context of the storyline and analysing the images alone hidden meanings will be revealed to you. I got news bub;

Movements and images without context can be interpreted as anything you wish same as quotes for examples; a music chain in the uk has the slogan of "suck it and see" for their returns policy, if you try it and it sucks bring it back and we'll change it kind of thing (this is for real here the chain is Fopp) If I we're to however just post "Suck it and see" in this thread what could I be refferring to? Why the answer is anything If there is no context then there is no right or wrong way of interpreting the image, quote or movements. Context is the single most important thing when analysing and making assumptions. You fail to ever really consider evidence in context of it must fit the storyline, rather you seem to think that analysing the images and giving them context in your opinion and then disregarding those who analyse it in context of the storyline as wrong. I gave you the storyline and you've clearly agreed it's correct then in the context of the storyline where would be your evidence of any of the theories you've posted lately?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

No, you're the one who is confused because you don't understand my posts clearly. :)

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I understand you perfectly well Serapy, you're not some mystical prophet speaking in riddles and even if you we're I would still understand you. I am simply telling you straight: Serapy you are in the wrong here, there is no evidence to sustain your theories. Not just this theory in this here thread but any of your theories. I'm not the only one saying this but aside from Future Esthar 95% of the members of this forum who visit the Final Fantasy VIII section agree with me. Even those who don't come to the section but know of you and your theories agree with me. To prove yourself and your theories correct we need believable evidence and logical explanations based not on ancient greeks or myths and legends we need it based on the information available in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I recommend reading my posts properly next time.

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Your arrogance astounds me for someone who cannot back up his claims he makes with evidence and so relies on ignoring other people's posts and repeating himself over and over. Sitting in the corner with your hands on your ears screaming the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, it does make you look like a crack pot however. As said before, I could understand your post just fine, you're just damn wrong and won't admit it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I already have based my assumptions on what happened (evidence) from the game, buddy. I took these bits out of the game and connect with each other to draw a conclusion that they are brothers. There's nothing wild about that.

You're just saying that my assumptions are not sound and logical simply because the whole idea of Squall and Seifer being brothers is ridiculous.

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Your evidence is flimsy, it doesn't fit together without some very illogical stretching of fact and fiction based on the storyline. If this were a court of law you would be laughed out of the room by the judge as he sent your ass to a cell for wasting the court's time with your farce of a case, don't believe me? Ask Raistlin, he happens to be a lawyer, ask him what would happen if he went to court with this as a case to prove your theory.

What is ridiculous is the fact that you took a look at the same storyline and evidence as the rest of us and decided that the evidence added up to making the idea more than just a possibility but a fact. We've all looked at this and added 2 and 2 together and made 4. You've taken the same 2 and 2 and made 5.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Complicated, really? Are we on the same game? VIII's been proven to be one of the most 'debating' FF games, because many users have posted threads about it to clarify something and agrue. If it wasn't complicated, then there wouldn't be many threads and FAQs regarding the game. You're just saying that it's not complicated because there's arrogance in your own being.

So, I'm confused because I was bored and made a theory out of something? Ok.

Carry on.

---

Ok well straight up, you say many users have made threads to debate and clarify things. I wish to see your list of these many users. I would also like to see how often your name or the name of Future Esthar crop up compared to them. The only two people who continuously make theories for classification or debate is the two of you. I'm very certain that anyone with an IQ more than that of a glass of water didn't find it all that complicated after the initial playthrough.

You're confused because you're back pedalling and trying to conceal that yet another theory of yours has been destroyed. It's not washing and nothing you can do can prove to us that you made this theory because you were bored. I name thee a troll pure and simple at best and at worst I couldn't actually type it without getting banned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Nope. Let me rephrase, if VIII wasn't ambiguous, then more people would understand VIII more clear, since they always look forward to answers straight away. But they couldn't, because there are important things in VIII that are subtle or lacking more information. E.g. Ultimecia lacks her backstory and she's one of the most important characters in VIII.

And if you have ever played VIII before, you would know that it's more demanding than other FF games in terms of things like this one.

So, all of that doesn't mean us players misunderstand the game...

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I have played the game as others members here and they have understood clearly that Seifer is obviously not Squall's brother. All the "evidence" you've presented has been proven by various people in this thread to be invalid. The best thing would be to accept that you misunderstood it and go about your day.

Quote:

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That's my point. If two minds know the coords of something very well (e.g. where to attack), then they are likely to be identical somehow. Genes in same families are more identical than different familes. Therefore...

A brother usually copys his own brother's actions in some way. Having a dream and all...

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They didn't copy eacother's actions; they were fighting. It's common for two people who are in a sword fight to try to take a slash at one another. This has nothing to do with genetics. How many times does this need to be explained to you before you get that?

Quote:

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It's reasonable, actually. When a designer draws multiple characters, and if two of his characters happen to be more identical to each other than the others, then that designer must have had thought of the same thing at the time. It's also reasonable if it happens to be a coincidence.

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Right, accept they're not identical as was aforementioned. Squall clearly shares some physical attributes of Laguna. Seifer on the other hand looks nothing like Squall. The designer purposely made them polar opposites both in personality and physical design except for fighting styles and weaponry. In no way were they trying to depict that they were brothers, but instead rivals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BardTard

Without hints, anything could be assumed.

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Yes, anything can be assumed, but that doesn't make it correct. If you assumed I was a man, you would still be wrong. Similarly, Serapy, you assume that Seifer is Squall's brother which is also wrong.

Ring around the rosie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

If it really was a joke theory Serapy would have said "Haha got you all! It was a joke!" and left it at that instead of continuing to argue on its behalf.

---

It is. He did. He has. He's not. *bows*.

Disclaimer made after I finished all this:I don't hate you, I don't think you're full of crap. I don't think you are any lesser of a person. Don't start calling me buddy, bud, or acting hostile toward me for this. Although I am a little defensive with my guilty pleasure good friend Iceglow.

I can back Iceglow up on that one that he did spend ages typing up that summary, I've read as much of it as I could be bothered (xD not saying it's bad, but I don't like FFVIII that much personally) but I could tell he wrote it - it's full of his own character which no online summary could've submitted. End of that one.

If you found him so "offensive", stop calling him buddy. That was somewhat irritating, and not..what, condescending? or whatever it was you were going for when you said it.

Now, when Iceglow mentioned to me he was writing one helluva long post to this thread, I didn't know why he was on about it. I personally thought at the time, "oh, well everyone has their own opinion and take on things you harsh bugger" (jk on the last part, love you Steeeeeve <3) but then I came here to see this argument.

I call bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: on this parade. Sorry, but you can have an opinion and say it's fact, but that's in your own opinion. In my opinion your opinion is not fact, it is unproven bull. My opinion is fact because of all the FFVIII fans out there, the majority will believe with the majority of people arguing against you in this thread, including me.

What made you even start chasing this little dream up anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

If it really was a joke theory Serapy would have said "Haha got you all! It was a joke!" and left it at that instead of continuing to argue on its behalf.

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It is. He did. He has. He's not. *bows*.

---

He did say that yes but he clearly hasn't just left it at that. That was what I was getting at. Continuing to respond with how ambiguous VIII is and that anything is possible makes me think that this isn't a joke at all. I guess I'm weird like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

If it really was a joke theory Serapy would have said "Haha got you all! It was a joke!" and left it at that instead of continuing to argue on its behalf.

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It is. He did. He has. He's not. *bows*.

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He did say that yes but he clearly hasn't just left it at that. That was what I was getting at. Continuing to respond with how ambiguous VIII is and that anything is possible makes me think that this isn't a joke at all. I guess I'm weird like that.

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I think he just means that it is possible for games to have some hidden facts that need to be studied - he doesn't mean the "Brothers" thing. FFVIII does have a touch ambiguouity to it, so it is nice that we have people posting interesting theories. FFVIII is my second favorite FF, so it's nice to see some theories that have structure unlike R/U which doesn't gel with me.

No really Mjn, look this is a joke theory compare that joke theory with this thread...do you still think he was joking, his defensive posting is making us believe him when he claims it was a joke theory? I don't

Did I just get rickrolled? O_O

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

No really Mjn, look this is a joke theory compare that joke theory with this thread...do you still think he was joking, his defensive posting is making us believe him when he claims it was a joke theory? I don't

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Yeah, I still believe it. Like I say, he's mostly defending his right to post his theory. The fact that this thread was a joke theory was revealed by Serapy ages ago, and really could no one else see it? I really hate sounding arrogant, but Serapy style of writing for this "theory" was so far removed from his usual style of writing (it's like the "Truthful Rumors" thread that Future Esthar did ages ago - you know that something isn't right, as the poster isn't posting in his usual style. Did you not realize something was a miss?

Squall and Seifer aren´t brothers.

Squall is the sun of Laguna and Raine.

Seifer is the sun of Raijin and Fujin(which is very very very obvious).

Hahahaha sun...Yes FE! Squall's parents are Laguna and Raine!
Sadly Seifers parents are more likely to be Edea and Cid than...Fuj and Raj cause that would just be weird

Think a little more about it.

Due to WOTC the ages don´t matter.

You have to look at feelings and interactions.

Regardless if it's a joke theory or not, obvious troll is obvious. Like I said before, he's just debating for the sake of debating like FE. The only way they could be successful is if people are actually annoyed by this. Remember people, it's just a game.

Trolls are only trolls if they spread hate - They're are just posting their opinions like you and I. I enjoy reading these threads, I don't mind if you debate them because it is part of being on a forum, and it is nice to see if they willl respond. But to say they are trolling is too far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

I haven't really kept up with this, but why are we all still arguing over a joke theory?

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I know. Ask them, not me. But it doesn't matter now anyway because they will keep insisting that I'm being serious with this thread. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guardian XIII

If it really was a joke theory Serapy would have said "Haha got you all! It was a joke!" and left it at that instead of continuing to argue on its behalf.

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Iceglow's and Shiny's posts have nothing to do with this theory as they are all irrelevant. That's why I take them serious now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

P1* Actually look at my post and understand that properly.

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I already did that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I am saying that the people on this forum in this thread what are confused about the story comprise of you and Future Esthar.

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Really...? Let's have a look at your previous bit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

The only people here in this forum who have discussed the theories you and FE write on these boards who are confused about the storyline of the game are you and FE!

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Something is wrong here.

Either way, my point still stands. Me and FE are not confused with the story of VIII in any way what so ever. What we are doing hardly implies a great level of confusion. We are just exploring VIII quite deeply...

And not all people are confused about our theories. Some are, some other aren't. In this case, you are once again over-exaggerating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Therefore before you go waving your pudgy little obsessive theory pointing fingers around, accusing me of not reading your posts properly, learn to read other peoples posts properly yourself. Thanks.

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No, thanks. If I post something, it's your job to understand it correctly before quoting me. It's also not my fault if you don't understand it correctly and then blowing things out of proportion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Actually Serapy, that was personally typed out for you by me so thanks for being offensive towards my effort to help you understand the storyline... and yet you call me offensive

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I have a strong feeling that you didn't write all that just to help me understand the storyline better. To be fair, you've made an effort in making a long recap on VIII for other people here, but you helping me wasn't definitely the main intention.

The following is your proof right here:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I think he might have me on ignore for all the countless times I have shut down his crazy ass theories. If not he's just deliberately doing the fingers in the ears "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" because my post has ripped this theory apart before it can even be commenced as reading material.

---

:roll2:roll2:roll2:roll2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

If I was being offensive, I would probably have gotten banned years ago for what I'd love to write here about you.

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Truthfully, most of your posts include a gigantic version of td:lr, so what makes you think that one of the moderators or administrators will spend time reading your posts just to achieve a goal; ensuring that your posts are abided by the rules? Too many text with some subtle lines as a way of having a go at me isn't obvious enough. So, consider yourself lucky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I would say I've been a model for restraint here, don't believe me? Well, just ask some of the other members who speak to me on other mediums what I have to say about you, I could probably make you break down and weep if I got started.

---

You think you're the only one that I ever faced? I've argued with various members on this forum in the past, not just you. So, what makes you think you'll make me break down and weep if you actually got started? Enlighten me. :roll2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

The storyline is the storyline you cannot argue with that and frankly your post doesn't actually attempt to declare me wrong on the events of the storyline.

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Yes, I do declare you wrong because your point is irrelevant. This thread has nothing to do with the storyline. In other words, how does Squall and Seifer being brothers, or any other certain element, have to do with the storyline in general? So, your logic is again flawed. Laguna could be Squall's father, but does their blood relation have much to do with the storyline of VIII? No. Once again, certain elements =/= storyline.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I expected as much since I am sure other members would read that and agree with me on the events of the storyline.

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Even if they disagree with you, it doesn't make any difference. So, what's your point? In fact, them agreeing with you doesn't make you any more credible.

Let's say, there are six billions of people on Earth right now. So, if I show something (e.g. my theory) to EVERY one of them; every single person out of 6,000,000,000. Assuming that all of them understand my language and the game, there will be a 100% chance that at least 60,000,000 will support me - 1%. Will this great number make any difference? Nope.

If a theory that has zillions of 'believable' evidence that supports it, not all of 6,000,000,000 will support it.

So, therefore. You saying:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

... since I am sure other members would read that and agree with me on the events of the storyline.

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Leads me to believe that it's for yourself; telling yourself that them agreeing with you proves that you're right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

You say yourself the storyline isn't confusing then where does your confusion come from?

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There's no confusion in our actions...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Clearly you seem to believe that by removing the context of the storyline and analysing the images alone hidden meanings will be revealed to you.

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No. If the storyline revealed whether or not Squall and Seifer are siblings, there would be no reason to analyse one of these elements.

Elements =/= Storyline

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Movements and images without context can be interpreted as anything you wish same as quotes for examples; a music chain in the uk has the slogan of "suck it and see" for their returns policy, if you try it and it sucks bring it back and we'll change it kind of thing (this is for real here the chain is Fopp) If I we're to however just post "Suck it and see" in this thread what could I be refferring to?

---

Your example is too small to compare with a thing like VIII. VIII is a lot larger.

Many story-written games like VIII enable players to shine thier imaginations easily while playing throughout the game. And this behaviour is usually applied when one thing doesn't reveal something. I.e. Getting 'what if' questions in your head. It would be a lot boring if this wasn't the case. And I'm sure the writers/designers of VIII intended this to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Why the answer is anything If there is no context then there is no right or wrong way of interpreting the image, quote or movements. Context is the single most important thing when analysing and making assumptions.

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That's where you're offensive. Also, just because a thing lacks showing context explicitly, it doesn't mean that context doesn't exist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

You fail to ever really consider evidence in context of it must fit the storyline, rather you seem to think that analysing the images and giving them context in your opinion and then disregarding those who analyse it in context of the storyline as wrong.

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I've already had provided evidence, you're just not taking them as valid because you don't seem to accept them. That's where you're wrong. Never ever refuse evidence that's provided by the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

I gave you the storyline and you've clearly agreed it's correct then in the context of the storyline where would be your evidence of any of the theories you've posted lately?

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They are in my first post. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I understand you perfectly well Serapy, you're not some mystical prophet speaking in riddles

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Perfectly well? I don't think so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

and even if you we're I would still understand you. I am simply telling you straight: Serapy you are in the wrong here, there is no evidence to sustain your theories.

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My theories always include evidence. If I didn't include any evidence, I would be making things up to a greater extent... like Squall actually met Seifer and share thier brotherhood moments about thier parents, etc. I've taken things out of the game and connected one with another; these things are evidence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Not just this theory in this here thread but any of your theories.

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I have. And I'm fairly sure that you didn't read all of my theories, nice assumption you have got there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I'm not the only one saying this but aside from Future Esthar 95% of the members of this forum who visit the Final Fantasy VIII section agree with me.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Even those who don't come to the section but know of you and your theories agree with me.

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"Oh, they agree with me, so I must be right!"

:lol: Not this again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

To prove yourself and your theories correct we need believable evidence and logical explanations based not on ancient greeks or myths and legends we need it based on the information available in the game.

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Nope. As I've said before, VIII isn't one of these straightforward games, so it'd be stupid to rely solely on the information that's given. Because we also have to consider other things like images and movements.

For example:

Look at how the mind of a writer works. He would go like this:
1) Think... think... what to write?
2) Oh... Artemisia.
3) Writes a theme based on Artemisia for Ultimecia.

The point being that must I disregard whatever was in that writer's mind? No. Whatever is in that writer's mind is always part of his work. Just because the game didn't explicitly state Artemisia or whatever, it doesn't mean they are not important.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Your arrogance astounds me for someone who cannot back up his claims he makes with evidence and so relies on ignoring other people's posts and repeating himself over and over.

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I've already backed up my claims. And arrogance? Let's look at what you said earlier:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Actually look at my post and understand that properly.

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Don't you think that is a bit... hypocritical?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

so relies on ignoring other people's posts and repeating himself over and over.

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Another over-exaggerated statement. Not surprising.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Sitting in the corner with your hands on your ears screaming the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, it does make you look like a crack pot however.

---

I don't see the logic in that. I've repeated some thing again not because I intended to make myself truer, but because you have not achieved anything. E.g. not providing hardcore disproof that Seifer and Squall are not brothers.

But look at you. Your assumptions, such as saying 'people with agree me', 'provide evidence plz', 'lolol he's ignoring me', 'i trash his theories', etc. doesn't make yourself any more valid. You have repeated these assumptions a quite couple of times now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

As said before, I could understand your post just fine, you're just damn wrong and won't admit it.

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Nope, you're the one who is wrong. You're in denial because you're not accepting the truth. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Your evidence is flimsy, it doesn't fit together without some very illogical stretching of fact and fiction based on the storyline.

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Once again, this has nothing to do with the storyline... So, of course it doesn't fit together to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

If this were a court of law you would be laughed out of the room by the judge as he sent your ass to a cell for wasting the court's time with your farce of a case, don't believe me?

---

Oooh, why are we comparing this to real life now? In this game, an astonishing amount of possbilities and probabilities can occur. Possbilities and probabilities are far more limited in real life, though, so that's a different story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

Ask Raistlin, he happens to be a lawyer, ask him what would happen if he went to court with this as a case to prove your theory.

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... but yeah, using other people to prove your point, are you now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceglow

What is ridiculous is the fact that you took a look at the same storyline and evidence as the rest of us and decided that the evidence added up to making the idea more than just a possibility but a fact.

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No. What's ridiculous is that you actually think that I'm seri... Oh wait. Never mind. :lol:

Again, this theory isn't on the storyline.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

We've all looked at this and added 2 and 2 together and made 4. You've taken the same 2 and 2 and made 5.

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Final Fantasy VIII has just become a mathematical game now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

Ok well straight up, you say many users have made threads to debate and clarify things. I wish to see your list of these many users.

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Are you actually serious or just being lazy? Go through the history of this forum (start from page 51) or visit the GameFAQs board. I thought it was already obvious enough... *speechless*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

The only two people who continuously make theories for classification or debate is the two of you.

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We come here to contribute, got any problem with that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceglow

I'm very certain that anyone with an IQ more than that of a glass of water didn't find it all that complicated after the initial playthrough.

---

Let me quote myself again:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I'm not talking about the storyline being confusing in a way that they can't be understood. I'm talking about certain elements (e.g. Ultimecia's backstory) that cannot be deciphered fully, because they are ambiguous. Images and movements (without any text) are ambiguous and they happen to be related with the plot. Confusing as in a way that there's no straight answer.

---

Once again, again, again and again, certain elements =/= storyline.

Carry on. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

I have played the game as others members here and they have understood clearly that Seifer is obviously not Squall's brother.

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Not as obvious as Squall being Laguna's son, either. It's never explicitly stated by the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

All the "evidence" you've presented has been proven by various people in this thread to be invalid.

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Various people? What an over-exaggerated assumption. And no, they didn't invalide anything. If a thing cannot output 'yes' or 'no', then it also cannot be proven true or false. So, I don't see your logic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiny

The best thing would be to accept that you misunderstood it and go about your day.

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I misunderstood the game? I don't think so. And no thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

They didn't copy eacother's actions; they were fighting.

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So, you're saying that, in general, brothers fighting with each other is uncommon? It's common, actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

It's common for two people who are in a sword fight to try to take a slash at one another.

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Well, duh. VIII is a story where war happens, so why wouldn't there be any sword fight?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

This has nothing to do with genetics. How many times does this need to be explained to you before you get that?

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I would like a two or three more caffeine drinks, please. Maybe after drinking these, I'll be hit.

No, actually. Genetics can play a role... The way how Seifer and Laguna move and how Seifer and Squall have received the same scars.

A hint: genetics can pass same cancers onto new blood (new kids) within a family.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Trolls are only trolls if they spread hate

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False.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BarelySeeAtAll

My opinion is fact because of all the FFVIII fans out there, the majority will believe with the majority of people arguing against you in this thread, including me.

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A popular opinion does not make something a fact, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

Regardless if it's a joke theory or not, obvious troll is obvious. Like I said before, he's just debating for the sake of debating like FE. The only way they could be successful is if people are actually annoyed by this. Remember people, it's just a game.

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Um, no. Why would I want to annoy people? Get your definition on trolling right:

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troll verb ( COMPUTING )
to leave an insulting message on a part of the Internet for no reason.

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and...

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In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

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and my explanation:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

So, if you think that I've been trying to make people angry or annoyed just to fuel my sadistic fantasy for the past 4 years, you must be out of your mind!

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So, stop discriminating, please.

Ok, I've been making myself stop responding so I could just enjoy laughing at this thread. But this argument shocked me out of my amused complacency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Genetics can play a role... The way how Seifer and Laguna move and how Seifer and Squall have received the same scars.

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My years of biology studies, including a couple of college courses, must have failed me in this regard. I did not realize genetics could somehow predetermine a fight and an injury.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Ok, I've been making myself stop responding so I could just enjoy laughing at this thread.

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I don't think so. You only stopped responding because you were fed up arguing with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

But this argument shocked me out of my amused complacency.

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Of course, this thread's always been sincere from the beginning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

My years of biology studies, including a couple of college courses, must have failed me in this regard. I did not realize genetics could somehow predetermine a fight and an injury.

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Oh, so we now know the true answer to everything. We now know how do they exactly work. We now know how a big bang was created, we now know how and what created the entire universe. We now know exactly how humans were created. We now know how the body of a human exactly works, and the list goes on. You would be right if that were the case, but it's actually not.

So, your implication that I'm wrong in regards to biology is just illogical.

I... what? :lol:

Ill have some of whatever your taking please Serephy, seems to create quite a nice little dream world whatever it is!

Words fail me in all honesty, cheers for the Lol's though.

In addition to the definition you gave, trolls main goal is to annoy and/or ignite pointless arguments usually, but not exclusively, out of boredom.

I'm not even going to continue respond to any of your stuff because once again, it's completely nonsensical. The only joy I get out of reading this thread is for amusement about how inane these theories are. xD

Sorry, but Serapy and FE should find another hobby to cure their boredom.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

If you assumed I was a man, you would still be wrong.

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I DID assume that. Looks like I was wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

Sorry, but Serapy and FE should find another hobby to cure their boredom.

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But then I wouldn't get to read it... The are parts I believe and parts I don't, but it makes a good read.

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Either way, my point still stands. Me and FE are not confused with the story of VIII in any way what so ever. What we are doing hardly implies a great level of confusion. We are just exploring VIII quite deeply...

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This.

I played FF8 more than 20 times already and am playing it on the PSN now.

Theories aren´t story explanations.They are THEORIES.

I don´t send a theory at random.Most of my theories are the result of hours of careful thinking.
Things on the game can appear to have mundane explanations but this only serves to distracts us from the deeper things it tries to hide.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Theories aren´t story explanations.They are THEORIES.

I don´t send a theory at random.Most of my theories are the result of hours of careful thinking.
Things on the game can appear to have mundane explanations but this only serves to distracts us from the deeper things it tries to hide.

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Quoted for truth. I sometimes wish I had the confidence to post mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Oh, so we now know the true answer to everything. We now know how do they exactly work. We now know how a big bang was created, we now know how and what created the entire universe. We now know exactly how humans were created. We now know how the body of a human exactly works, and the list goes on. You would be right if that were the case, but it's actually not.

So, your implication that I'm wrong in regards to biology is just illogical.

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I... wow. I don't even know where to begin with this.

Ok, first off, this entire portion of your post is nothing but a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking., as it attacks arguments that were never made and are not relevant. Secondly, just because we don't know everything does not mean you can make up whatever you want (i.e., "we don't know for sure how the world began, so I think a pink unicorn shot magic stars out of its horn which created the universe"). Thirdly, we know enough about biology in general and genetics in particular to know that what you're suggesting is impossible. You would refute all of modern biology and our understanding of how we and the world work. What you're suggesting is far more "illogical" than suggesting that scientific claims actually have some sort of evidence behind them.

Your argument has reached beyond simply "irrational" to "insane." Though I must say, I look forward to your response.

I still don't understand the necessity of disproving this theory. Of course, Serapy's theory has flaws (I mean, major flaws). But isn't it really funny that one knows that the theory is wrong and corrects it, then correction denied and argument starts pointlessly just like in a courtroom until it even attacks the theory starter to the utmost level? And then from FFVIII to SCIENCE argument???!!! Where the heck are we?

How funny people can be if they don't accept other people's ideas AND choose to trample it in dust just to prove that they're more logical than others!

I wonder where this thing will lead to.....

There are a couple of nutjobs in this thread that seriously need to put down the remote, go outside and get vigorously laid.

That is all you reality devoid window lickers. Theories are for events real or perceeived as real. Theories have no place in a video game where the plotlines are invented and can be explained. I don't even like them for TV shows as unless the writers release it or have written it & are hiding it. NO MATTER WHAT INSANE GARBAGE YOU SPOUT WILL ONLY EVER BE RIGHT IN YOUR OVERACTIVE UNDER USED CRANIUMS. Good Grief


PS: ;)

PPS: WESLEY STOP QUIOTING 'really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.' EVERY TIME YOU ARGUE YOU GREAT BIG FLAPJACK.

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Originally Posted by Cuchulainn

There are a couple of nutjobs in this thread that seriously need to put down the remote, go outside and get vigorously laid.

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Quick, someone close the thread now because this is a good note. :cuch:

Is there a way to report this thread for closure with out making it look like I'm reporting Serapy? Becuase he's not the problem here, it's the fact that we're still arguing over a JOKE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cuchulainn

PPS: WESLEY STOP QUIOTING 'really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.' EVERY TIME YOU ARGUE YOU GREAT BIG FLAPJACK.

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Then people should stop using them so damn often, you wee slop-brained Irish drunkard! :cuch:

im just home from Soulfly and very drunk.

Wes STFU

Clo, age a bit then marry me.

Everyone else. smurf Off. Except Foa ily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cuchulainn

im just home from Soulfly and very drunk.

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Never go onto the Internet when drunk :D If you're me, you end up with very odd Facebook statuses you don't remember writing.

Sorry, I'm more convinced that Seifer is Edea and Cid's son. His arrogant attitude, definitely conveys the "my dad owns your ass, so you better do what I say" message. Besides, Raine only had 1 kid before she died.

I think this thread is done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

Is there a way to report this thread for closure with out making it look like I'm reporting Serapy? Becuase he's not the problem here, it's the fact that we're still arguing over a JOKE.

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We read the descriptions when reading an email for a warned post. You can also try PMing someone!