Damn those world saving Shinra! Someone stop them!

I've been replaying through FFVII lately, and I just got past the point where you have to collect the Huge Materia. It was there I thought I missed something in my previous playthroughs but no...Cloud and his motley crew of ship thieves hear about the Shinra plan to use Huge Materia to blow up the Meteor and then literally just say "we have to stop them, we have to get that huge materia!". It's not like they even have a plan to use the huge materia, they just jam it all in Bugenhagen's attic.

What's up with this? From what I've seen from Shinra in the second disk, they've been doing nothing but trying to stop Sephiroth and Meteor and doing GOOD for the world (apart from the attempted public executions)...I don't see why Cloud and the others don't help them, or at least just stay out of their way and let them have a bash. Let me try and break it down:

Shinra: They're fighting the Weapons, and manage to kill two of them, they're collecting special weapons to beat Sephiroth (as shown in the crashed gelnika), and they're moving the cannon to try and destroy Sephiroths barrier. Sound like worthy goals to me.

Cloud and co: They have no idea how they're going to destroy the barrier or Sephiroth. They pretty much just make it their mission to totally wreck anything the Shinra are doing.

So is there some hidden reason that they're trying to stop Shinra at this point in the game? Disk one I could see why, but now Sephiroth is clearly the huge threat. It's not like Shinra even want anything to do with Cloud and the others at this point, they're not even pursuing them. Now I know that the huge materia doesn't work anyway, even if you don't collect any of the pieces, but it's not like anyone knew that at the time.
They also even have the cheek to say "Shinra's plan failed" when the rocket doesn't blow up meteor. Yeah no thanks to you, you morons!

The secret is that Rufus Shinra stole Clouds dog.

I have no idea really, I've thought this before too, its all CLOUD AND CO's fault that the rocket failed. Even without the power of 4 materia each 330 times more powerful than a normal materia (including ultima and contain) it still almost blew up the rocket. And the materia in the rocket contained bahamut zero, who blows up planets. He coulda beat meteor, then sephiroth woulda been like. crap. I can't cast meteor again, and now I'm too ugly to show myself on the surface where two casts of KOTR will kill me.

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Originally Posted by Crop

...I don't see why Cloud and the others don't help them, or at least just stay out of their way and let them have a bash.

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There would be no game if that were the case... or at least, Cloud and co. wouldn't be in the spotlight.

Of course it could argued that Shinra is acting purely out of self-interest to deal with a problem they caused, both in Hojo's research and the continued ravaging of the planet's life energy. I wouldn't describe it as altruistic, and the public executions are merely a publicity stunt and attempts at scapegoating.

This is a company that is perfectly willing to drop a sector plate on top of a large part of their own population to deal with a terrorist group. Now AVALANCHE does have some blood on their hands for blowing up the reactors, but their motives make them more well intentioned extremists than outright evil.

That being said the scene aginst Sapphire Weapon was awesome (like a Godzilla movie if the JSDF's super weapon actually worked), and it was cool that the heros didn't have to take out all the Weapons on their own.

I would say that Shinra and the heros were working on parallel tracks, not really cooperating but the actions of one enabled the actions of the other.

There is that one scene in AC where Reno says "and together we could rebuild Shinra!"

Basically yeah; Rufus has gone "oh smurf what has happened here" and is trying to fix it so they can sleep better at night (plus with that huge materia they'd be more powerful). Cloud and co. don't see anything but bad blood between them and "evil Shinra" so they just trash their plans for :bou::bou::bou::bou:s and giggles.

I was under the impression that Cloud & Co. knew that the plan couldn't work (the NPCs at Cosmo Canyon say so if I recall correctly... or maybe I'm crazy), in addition to the fact that it was an abuse of nature and would put to waste a valuable resource.

Despite the awkward writing, I'm pretty sure the main point is that Shinra are still evil, their hasty plans are only a hindrance Cloud & Co., and they can't truly do anything to stop Meteor. It would have been nice if these points received emphasis during the time rather than after the fact.

I thought that at some point C&C were told that the huge materia would just make Meteor stronger if they made contact.

This is really one of the biggest issues I have with the plot in the second disc (well not to mention that stupid double whammy plot twist about Cloud) cause while Shin-Ra is certainly only fighting for their own self-preservation and they were certainly the main cause of all this from happening, like Crop points out, it's not like Cloud's party actually had a plan. The truth about Holy doesn't even come to light until after Cloud and co. have sabotaged Shin-Ra's efforts to save the planet. So they pretty much wasted time of figuring out their own way of saving the Planet by screwing with Shin-Ra's plan which at the time could have been the planet's only hope.

They really had no good reason to do so beyond some hippie environmentalist mentality :roll2 The game does a piss poor job of explaining why the heroes are in the right, nor does it really give any literary focus of presenting the heroes as not completely good, they simply come across as stupid and their justification is that Shin-Ra is evil. I'm guessing something was lost in translation but I don't really care anymore.

I was under the impression that Shinra were being evil using the precious, one-of-a-kind (or four rather) Huge Materia to destroy Meteor whereas we're all supposed to assume that the best course of action is to true a handful of terrorists with the fate of world. Even though they don't even set out to do anything about Meteor. They just go to beat up Sephiroth whilst the Planet gets bailed out by the Lifestream.

It's a shame that Shinra get wiped out. It would have been interesting to see what Rufus would have planned for his confrontation with Sephiroth. That and the only good parts of the game were the scenes that involved Shinra / Turks. In fact, without Rufus I'd wonder what Cloud & Co.'s plan would have been? They would have been totally screwed.

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(plus with that huge materia they'd be more powerful)

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They wouldn't after they used it. They HAVE the Huge Materia, and they're willing to use up this valuable resource to help save the planet.

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I thought that at some point C&C were told that the huge materia would just make Meteor stronger if they made contact.

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If this is said, it's said after the part where they launch the rocket into meteor, because that's the part I'm at and it hasn't been mentioned.

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They just go to beat up Sephiroth

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And they couldn't have even done that without Shinra.

Don't get me wrong I know Shinra are pretty much evil, what with the plate dropping, planet killing etc. But they'd probably use everything they have to defeat the Weapons, destroy the barrier, and then probably jam a bomb down the crater, blow the hell out of Sephiroth and then send soldiers down there to finish the job.

I'd have thought it would be better for Cloud and the others to take a little RnR in Costa Del Sol and wait until the weakened Shinra are all they have to deal with, they would have time to do so then at least (Since Shinra arn't an immediate threat out to destroy the planet) and it's not like they had a problem with blowing up the reactors before.

I guess it's probably just bad writing, or bad plot development or whatever, but I had hoped I had just missed something big because this just puts me off a huge part of the second disk.

I guess they would've just sat around for a while until they figured out the deal with Holy.

I recall Reeve saying they were going to send squads of SOLDIERs to attack Sephiroth, but after the disc 2 closing events ShinRa was to disorganized to get such an attack together.

And if Cloud & co. didn't have the Sister Ray to blow up Sephiroth's shield they could have always blown it up with some sort of heavy materia bomb they went to a lot of trouble to acquire. :p

"There was no guarantee the Huge Materia would work, not to mention the negative impacts it might have had on the Planet if it was loaded with all four HM's (even with NO Huge Materia, or a single one, the rocket's explosion was still powerful enough to make a hole in Meteor's outer shell).

Besides, Shinra intended to destroy Corel AGAIN (the railway passes right through it) and invade Fort Condor to get Huge Materia, not even caring about who was going to get hurt or killed in the process. That's the main problem with Shinra's plan, and that's why the party opposed it."

-Some guy from some other forum

Well Fort Condor being taken out is more of the rebels fault since they are holed up there to save an endangered species over the whole damn planet, and no one said Shin-Ra weren't being jerks about all of this. Besides, the party doesn't even realize that Corel is in danger until they get there (meaning they were their to thwart them anyway without the destruction of Corel as an incentive) so I still feel the party is being illogical.

Without knowing the effects on the planet? They may not have known about the affects of detonating the huge materia, but they had a fairly good idea about the affects of Meteor. And anything is up from there.

And the fact that it blew half of meteor apart without the full payload is a definite reason to have tried it at full strength. Though the FMV is the same regardless, so we never get to know the true strength of the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well Fort Condor being taken out is more of the rebels fault since they are holed up there to save an endangered species over the whole damn planet, and no one said Shin-Ra weren't being jerks about all of this. Besides, the party doesn't even realize that Corel is in danger until they get there (meaning they were their to thwart them anyway without the destruction of Corel as an incentive) so I still feel the party is being illogical.

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You'll have to take that up with some guy from some other forum :p

I haven't played FF7 in a couple years, but the quote in my last post sounded good from what I could remember of the game.

Anyway, Shinra has a complete monopoly over the mako energy, and they use military force when people don't do what they want. Also, the Turks are responsible for kidnapping, espionage, and assassinations. Aren't those pretty bad?

I will troll this person's ass. ;)

The issue here is not whether Shin-Ra was bad or not, they are dicks who deserve what they got. The issue here, is that Shin-Ra, as the most powerful human force on the Planet is actually trying to use all their fancy technology and military power to stop Sephiroth and the party decides they need to be taken out, (and let's ignore the fact that Cloud and Co have been trying to ignore them up until this point, focusing more on Sephiroth until now) even though they are actually trying to save the planet for once (so they can go back to ruling it and sucking it dry of mako) but they are actually doing something whereas your party is basically twittling their little thumbs with nothing to do and decide Shin-Ra is just not up to any good, and they should stop them from trying to save the planet.

It's akin to if Kefka, instead of ruling the ruined world like a petty dictator, actually used his power to build a half decent world without the empire to deal with but your party decided he needs to be killed anyway. No one would deny that kefka wouldn't deserve it from his action in the world of balance but to have them actually do something good, even if they had more selfish motives, and then watch your party take them down for no good reason.

No one really stops to think that maybe Shin-Ra should be left to try their plan. Its not like the party had some true reason to save the Huge Materia, it would weaken the planet but it could have saved it too if it weren't for hindsight and the knowledge of a third disc. The issue here is that Cloud and Co. really had no reason to go after Shin-Ra at this point cause they were both fighting for the same result even if they had different motives, while I don't feel this means Cloud and Co. should be helping Shin-Ra, it just seems very counter intuitive for them to be hindering them at this point. If Meteor dropped, it doesn't matter if you saved the four Huge Materias, the Condors, or one trashy little city or two. Everyone would be dead, Cloud and Co. just lucked out to learn that Aerith set Holy in motion and thus their actions against Shin-Ra are seen as less stupid and more virtuous, but objectively speaking, they were foolish to try and stop Shin-Ra.

Can't argue with that.

Hats off to you, good sir.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I will troll this person's ass. ;)

The issue here is not whether Shin-Ra was bad or not, they are dicks who deserve what they got. The issue here, is that Shin-Ra, as the most powerful human force on the Planet is actually trying to use all their fancy technology and military power to stop Sephiroth and the party decides they need to be taken out, (and let's ignore the fact that Cloud and Co have been trying to ignore them up until this point, focusing more on Sephiroth until now) even though they are actually trying to save the planet for once (so they can go back to ruling it and sucking it dry of mako) but they are actually doing something whereas your party is basically twittling their little thumbs with nothing to do and decide Shin-Ra is just not up to any good, and they should stop them from trying to save the planet.

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This is pretty much the issue I have with it.

Besides, your party is the one who almost crashes the train into Corel (or sometimes does), I doubt Shinra would have done that.
And the guy at Fort Condor is a moron, not only does he have the Huge Materia on his person from the start, and just uses your party to fight the Shinra. But rather than give up the Huge Materia to the Shinra to make them go away, he'd rather horde it away from them without even knowing why.

Shinra are obviously bad, but I think in the second disk everyone just hates the Shinra for just being Shinra, regardless of what they're actually doing.

If we distinguish between intent and action, Shinra is generally malevolent (evil intent) and maleficent (evil actions), while the heroes are generally both benevolent and beneficent. There are times though where the heroes actions are maleficent however well intentioned.

This game argues that in a world ruled by an evil corporation that wields both millitary and polical power, the only way to stop them is through terrorism. We are meant to side with AVALANCHE by showing their sympathetic goals and also downplaying the collateral damage inflicted by their actions. The game tries hard to stack the deck in their favor, but it does bother me.

I'm guessing the scriptwriters had the ending confrontation already in mind and wrote backwards to get to that point.

There are a few NPCs early on that talk about the deaths of innocent civilians. Nobody seems to bat an eyelid. Oh cool, collateral damage. Means the bomb was big enough.

Oh wait then they tried to use a bigger bomb for No5...

There's never any problem with a bigger bomb, imho...

Depends on where you're standing.

It could be partly a matter of the boy who cried wolf. Shinra has done so many evil and despicable deeds that one of the few times they try to do something good, nobody buys it at face value, even if it seems objectively sensible. Most of the heroes have deep understandable grudges against Shinra that could easily lead to 'they're evil, so we have to oppose anything they do' rationale.

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

I was under the impression that Cloud & Co. knew that the plan couldn't work.

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I think the only Huge Materia you can't possibly lose/are stuck with is the one from the Submarine battle. There's no way to lose this battle (I think). You can lose all of the other Huge Materia by being too slow and in the case of Fort Condor by allowing yourself to die at the hands of Commander Grand Horn (which isn't easy given the level you're at and you have to make sure you're not equipped with Counter materias).
In any case, even if Shinra has the Huge Materia, given the fact that the FMV doesn't change to show more damage to the Meteor, obviously the Huge Materia is F-ing useless toward this goal. As for why Cloud thought it was so important to get it back... I guess they thought they could get better use out of it.

You can lose the one in the Shinra Rocket too, if I remember correctly. I know I screwed that up once or twice :p

You can lose all the huge materia.
Submarine: Fail the mission (who the f*** can't kill the submarine in 10 minutes!?)
Alternatively, you can just never go to the red submarine to pick it up.
Corel: Fail catching up to the train.
Fort Condor: Die in the fight vs CMD Grand Horn.
Rocket: Fail to find out the code within 3 minutes.

I wondered this last time I played through. Especially considering there weren't any negative consequences to letting the Shinra try their plans out. Obviously you'd miss out on the Master Materia and Bahamut Zero, but they're not absolutely necessary to finish the game. I was tempted to let them just get away with it, though as it'd have no bearing whatsoever on the story I didn't bother.

Naturally the public executions demonstrate that the Shinra aren't exactly whiter than white and they probably are motivated out of a desire to save themselves, though they are actually doing something at least.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

You can lose all the huge materia.
Submarine: Fail the mission (who the f*** can't kill the submarine in 10 minutes!?)
Alternatively, you can just never go to the red submarine to pick it up.
Corel: Fail catching up to the train.
Fort Condor: Die in the fight vs CMD Grand Horn.
Rocket: Fail to find out the code within 3 minutes.

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You're right, I saved a duplicate file so I could do all of this. I had forgotten about the secret loser way to acquire the Red Sub. You normally pilot the black No.2 Sub and can capture a crew total of 3. But if you allow yourself to lose the sub battle, you can get the Red Sub with a crew total of 6 plus a cute dog (if you decide to keep/capture them otherwise you just fight and kill the soldiers and maybe let the dog go.

In the Rocket, after you first approach the Device and Cid explains what it is, you don't even have to try to open it, you can just leave and go to the pod and no one will complain.

I didn't realize that if you won the Huge Materia with Cid, you actually had to collect it in order to go with the story. I won over at Fort Condor First and then went on to Corel, but when I went to visit Cloud... notta. No event. I went into the Highwind and Cid suggested going back to Fort Condor. I was a little annoyed.

i read somewhere that it' just a game and you don't need to pick holes in every plot line and just suspend your disbelief and enjoy it for what it is. however, this is just a rumour. i'll get back to you when i have more information.

From what I understood - and it's been a while so I could absolutely be wrong - the huge materia was not being used as an explosive device but as a device to power the rocket itself. Once in space, the rocket had no additional need for power as it was already traveling at speed and in the right direction. The materia was being used for lift-off.

This is backed up by the massive explosion when the rocket hits the meteor, which means there was some kind of explosive device within the rocket powerful enough to obliterate it to pieces. However, the meteor itself being magical meant that it could regather it's pieces and thus carry on it's course.

If people had some theory that the huge materia itself was an explosive device, then surely the train crashing into Corel would have killed everyone in the area?

but that big materia wasnt rigged to explode, it was just being moved. also, I think I read that they were planning n using the power of the materia to blow up meteor, thats why scarlet was so excited by the huge materia

If I recall correctly, wasn't Huge Materia the original ammunition of the Sister Ray, before it was moved to Midgar and powered by the Mako Reactors? And that Scarlet was searching for more ammo for it when she was hunting down Huge Materia all over the world even in Disc 1.

Which, in turn, means there are at least six pieces of Huge Materia, as the Sister Ray fires two at Sapphire Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

If I recall correctly, wasn't Huge Materia the original ammunition of the Sister Ray, before it was moved to Midgar and powered by the Mako Reactors? And that Scarlet was searching for more ammo for it when she was hunting down Huge Materia all over the world even in Disc 1.

Which, in turn, means there are at least six pieces of Huge Materia, as the Sister Ray fires two at Sapphire Weapon.

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Run by huge materia, not armed with huge materia. Huge materia are used as the power source, basically.

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

but that big materia wasnt rigged to explode, it was just being moved. also, I think I read that they were planning n using the power of the materia to blow up meteor, thats why scarlet was so excited by the huge materia

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Given that there is a whopping huge explosion capable of (temporarily) obliterating Meteor despite the huge materia being completely removed, I don't see how that could happen if it was the materia itself that was the explosive. That's like saying if you remove the plutonium and uranium from an atomic bomb then it will still explode - it won't. It will just... crash into the ground, I guess? But yeah, the explosion is exactly the same with or without the huge materia so I believe it was just used to power the rocket, not to explode.

I imagine the Huge Materia just made it a faster rocket. Explosive power is a bit increased if the thing is flying hella fast.

The Huge Materia is stated to be used as an explosive on the Rocket. I can't imagine if was used as fuel for the Rocket cause Shin-Ra doesn't even know if the normal rocket with its own fuel source would work. It was meant to be a bomb and I wouldn't use the cutscene of its impact onto Meteor as proof one way or the other cause the developers didn't bother to make variations (most likely due to running out of time, money, and other resources) so they may have built it based on one variation. My guess, is the scenario they chose is if the player failed to obtain all of them cause frankly, trying to get the materia in the Rocket itself is a pain in the ass and I'm sure most people failed the first time.

Also, fighting a magical Meteor with normal explosives doesn't sound like it would work even on paper, fighting them a bomb made of pure concentrated magic on the other hand does. So I can't back up the notion its just to power the Rocket. Especially since the rocket still uses classic rocket propulsion devices and the Rocket is still capable of moving even after the materia has been rescued.

Where was it stated? When I first saw this thread I tried to find anything that said it would be used in such a way and couldn't. Admittedly, though, it was a lengthy script and I did some skimming. :p

It's neither stated as an explosive nor as fuel for the rocket. It's simply put that the Huge Materia will be launched at the Meteor with the rocket. But one can assume by such a statement that the Huge Materia is what was originally intended to impact with the meteor, not necessarily the rocket itself.

Mercen X has it right, here's the script:

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Rufus: Now then...... We're faced with two issues. 1: Destroy Meteor. 2: Remove the barrier around North Cave and defeat Sephiroth. Any ideas?

Heidegger: Gya haah hah hah! We already solved the first problem! Meteor will soon be smashed to bits! The plan has already been put in motion. Namely, to collect Huge Materia from each region.

Rufus: Well......

Scarlet: Huge Materia is a high density special type of materia made through a special compression process in Mako reactors. The energy extracted from it is 330 times the strength of normal materia. Ha, ha, ha! How about that!? We will gather all the Huge Materia together and ram it into Meteor. That will cause a huge explosion!! Reducing Meteor literally to bits.

Rufus: You're going to ram Meteor? Do you think we have the technology to do it?

Scarlet: Don't worry about that! More importantly, we've got to collect Huge Materia from each area.

Heidegger: We've already collected materia from Nibelheim. All that's left is "Corel" and "Fort Condor", I've already dispatched troops to Corel. Ghaa haah hah hah!

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Its not a fuel, but it is not attached to a bomb, it is just implied the Huge Materia is the most important element cause it will have the destructive power to take down meteor, theoretically.

You know out of all the times I played and beat FFVII I never looked into this... I guess I was just having too much fun to realize this super plot hole xD

I recently got to disk three and I noticed that after the rocket hits meteor and doesn't work the whole party are like "Shinra's plan failed...erm maybe we shouldn't have got in their way so much". I found it pretty amusing.

Also, if you go to Kalm on disk three they're pretty much saying what I'm thinking, and just ripping into how Cloud and Co should have just got out the damn way and let Shinra get on with what they were doing for a while.

FYI: If you fail at any point to obtain a Huge Materia before gathering the Huge Materia from the Rocket, the materia you get will be from somewhere else (i.e. Huge Materia from Corel, Huge Materia from Fort Condor, Huge Materia from Underwater Reactor), and even if you fail to get all three previous materias, you only get the one materia out of the rocket (which meaninglessly is always represented by the Support Materia colored crystal). So, I for one would assume that no matter which scenario plays out, the Shinra only manages to load the useless Support Huge Materia onto the Rocket and that's why if you fail to get it out, the materia has no effect on the explosion caused by the impact.

Thinking on this, it seems like the Huge Materia quest was conceived because the scenario writers needed something to extend the time between Cloud being discovered at Mideel and Cloud waking up after Mideel. Without it, Tifa and co. would have found him and immediately the place would be wrecked by a Weapon and Tifa and Cloud would end up in the Lifestream sequence (one of my favourites, actually). It would all be moving far too quick, especially after the huge Junon escape event, which itself already followed the mindsmurf Whirlwind Maze bit.

It also allows the player some nice free-roaming, since, up to this point, the game has been pretty consistently and briskly sending the player from new location to location. It's a sequence that triples as relaxing (actually it's depressing) downtime, an opportunity to re-visit areas of interest, and a throwback Crystal Quest. I used to like this scenario in my younger days, but now I think it's actually the weakest part of the game, mainly because the whole section feels a bit slapdash (obviously) - extending game time an extra 3-5 hours for its own sake. I've been tearing through Chrono Cross lately, and I find that it does kind of the same thing in parts. Although I do feel CC's Sleeping Dragons scenario is done a bit better (including a few a-ha moments because the game lets you explore so freely earlier on) it still kind of grinds the game's otherwise compelling narrative to a halt.

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Originally Posted by Flying Arrow

It also allows the player some nice free-roaming, since, up to this point, the game has been pretty consistently and briskly sending the player from new location to location. It's a sequence that triples as relaxing (actually it's depressing) downtime, an opportunity to re-visit areas of interest, and a throwback Crystal Quest. I used to like this scenario in my younger days, but now I think it's actually the weakest part of the game, mainly because the whole section feels a bit slapdash (obviously) - extending game time an extra 3-5 hours for its own sake.

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I totally agree with this. In my latest playthrough I've found that the first disk has been my favourite by a very long shot. The following of Sephiroth from town to town just doesn't feel linear at all, every location has either something interesting or relevant to the plot, as well as being very fun to play. Places such as Junon (or when Sephiroth attacks on the boat to Costa Del Sol) I just never get bored of.
I remember when I first left Midgar and saw that I had barely scratched the surface of the game it just felt so epic.
Not to mention it has the infiltration of Shinra HQ, one of my favourite parts of any game ever.

Then again, what disk 2 lacks in plot it makes up for in cutscenes (the weapons attacking Shinra), epic moments (Rufus dying), and excellent locations (going back to Midgar, underwater reactor, Rocket launch part).

^ Yeah, Disc 1 is just great. The greatness carries over to most of disc 2, too. It's just that when Cid takes control, the game seems to feel a bit flat because the rushed-ness of the Huge Materia quest makes it seem like filler. The spotty motivation, as discussed in this thread, doesn't help either.

I mean it's not like the game sends you off to do something only tangentially related (thinking Oeilvert and Ipsen's Castle here), but it still doesn't fit in nearly as well as the rest of the game's scenarios do. But unlike FFIX's late-game quests, it also doesn't really show the player anything new - which was what was really great about the game's pacing to begin with. Sure you get to go to the underwater reactor and into space when Cloud comes back, but the Cid bits just have you doing another stupid Fort Condor fight and playing some crap mini-game in Corel. It's just a huge hiccup in the game's pace. It doesn't really pick up again until you visit Bugenhagen and take him to the Ancient City.

But yeah, tl;dr: The Huge Materia sequence must have been the last thing that was put in the game, because it really sticks out as being kinda thrown in as filler in almost every way.