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No, this thread is not going to be about which is better or anything like that, I'm actually wondering what fans think about this actual argument that has been going on for almost fifteen years. Does the question make you reach for your weapons and wear your colors, or do you simply roll your eyes and wish people would stp talking about it? What other thoughts come up about the argument and what's your assessment of VI and VII fanboy and fangirls who keep this debate alive and well?
I never realized there was a heated debate about the two games--I always thought it was over VII and VIII.
In a fight between FF6 and FF7 it is kind of hard to determine the winner. FF6 has more mass and is a hard plastic shell, but FF7 is a team of three much more fragile units.
......
Ok, more seriously. I always thought it stupid to have 6 & 7 at each other's throats because to me they are really very similar. To me FF7 is FF6 wrapped up in a better presented package, improving the over all experience.
Obviously everyone will have a favorite, and though I like FF7 better I don't see any reason that someone else would go the other way. What gets me scratching my nogin is the people who love one but loathe the other.
I think the argument mainly arises over Kefka vs. Sephiroth. There are good and bad arguments for the storyline and gameplay of both, but the defining moment for each of these games is the ending.
Kefka is an amalgamation of evil intent, malice, pain, and madness that has culminated in a being that is too dangerous to like, but too missguided to not pity. He believes that senseless destruction is all there is, and will stop at nothing to achieve his wish of annihilation. A villain with a purpose is evil; a villain without a purpose is both the greatest villain in the world, and the saddest man on the planet. Sephiroth may have a sword, but Kefka has nothing. Which is what made him great.
"Life... Dreams... Hope... Where'd they come from? And where are they headed? These things... I am going to destroy!"
On the other hand, Sephiroth is pretty badass in his own right, even though most of the game the person you think is Sephiroth is actually JENOVA. As revealed over the course of the game, Sephiroth was once the most powerful member of SOLDIER, and was celebrated as a heroic veteran of the Shinra Wutai war. After the war, Sephiroth discovered while in a mission to Cloud's hometown Nibelheim that he was the product of a biological experiment that combined a human fetus with tissue from an extraterrestrial lifeform. Learning that the alien, his "mother," attempted to take control of the planet years ago, Sephiroth decides to follow in her footsteps, then burns down the entire village and kills nearly everyone.
Sephiroth's primary objective is to become a god that rules over the entire planet by merging with the Lifestream. In order to do so, he must summon Meteor to damage the planet, thus allowing him to merge with the exposed Lifestream. Since his real body is sealed in the Northern Crater, he uses copies of himself in order to bring himself the Black Materia needed to summon Meteor, and succeeds by tricking Cloud into believing he is also merely a copy. And after the final battle, Cloud defeats the Sephiroth that appears in his mind (the memory of him or the physical manifestation of Cloud's previous adoration of him) thus completely ridding the world of Sephiroth. Wonderful storyline.
Kefka was the first human to be experimentally infused with Magitek, which warped his mind and made him into the nihilistic psychopath he is during the course of the game. He mentally enslaves Terra and uses her to lead an attack on Narshe to claim the frozen esper there, and even after she escapes Imperial control, he pursues her to the kingdom of Figaro, setting the castle ablaze.
During a siege on the kingdom of Doma, Kefka grows impatient with fellow Imperial General Leo and poisons the drinking water at Doma Castle, resulting in mass casualties and a swift victory for the Empire. To gain the trust of the protagonists, Gestahl has Kefka imprisoned, citing the poisoning of Doma. Kefka later goes to the village of Thamasa to kill the espers congregated there, killing Leo when he tries to intervene. Using the power of the espers, Kefka helps Gestahl raise the espers' homeworld and create the Floating Continent, where they intend to awaken three entities known as the Warring Triad. Upon being confronted by the protagonists, Gestahl freezes them except for former Imperial general Celes, whom he orders to kill her friends to show her loyalty to the Empire. She instead stabs Kefka, who becomes enraged. Kefka and the Emperor then get in an argument as to what degree they will wield the power of the triad - the Emperor taking a more conservative approach, since he only wants enough power to rule the world, while Kefka wants to unleash the Warring Triad's full potential. The Emperor tries to kill Kefka, who retaliates by having the Warring Triad strike Gestahl down and unceremoniously boots him off the Floating Continent to his death. Kefka then moves the statues of the Warring Triad out of balance, unleashing enough raw magical energy to reshape the face of the planet and bringing about the second act of the game.
Imbued with the power of the statues, Kefka becomes the god of the ruined world he created, using the statues to forge a massive tower of random debris to serve as his headquarters. Kefka smites the millions who refuse to worship him with a beam of incinerating light capable of cutting fissures into the planet's surface. Confronted by the protagonists at the game's conclusion, Kefka reveals his true motivations. When the protagonists reject his claims, Kefka goes berserk and proclaims his desire to eradicate everything. Then you kill him and the power of magic vanishes. Another wonderful story.
Then you've got their names.
Sephiroth, meaning "enumerations", are the 10 attributes/emanations in Kabbalah, through which God (who is referred to as Ein Sof - The Infinite) reveals himself and continuously creates both the physical realm and the chain of higher metaphysical realms, the order of evolution. "Revelations of the Will of the Creator," which translates very well to the storyline, as JENOVA can be seen as the "Creator" and Sephiroth follows in her footsteps by trying to carry out her will of destroying/enslaving the planet. The Sephiroth is a reflection of the theology in Kabbalah that Creation is formed from the metaphorical speech of God, as in the first chapter of Genesis.
Kefka's name is assumed to have been based on Franz Kafka. While Kafka's works are wonderful (Metamorphosis is smurfing awesome) it's hard to compare an author to the words of an infinite creator.
Then you've got their music.
I'll agree, One Winged Angel was, when it came out, the most bad-ass theme for a boss I had ever heard, and I replayed the final boss fight just to hear the music so many times...
But Dancing Mad is a masterpiece reserved for the most special of occasions; an epic instrumental for dethroning a battit-insane god. One Winged Angel can be played for any epic battle. But there are only a few fit to have Dancing Mad. But it comes down to whether a person wants to have a bunch of wonderful moments, or a single sublime moment.
In the end I have to side with Kefka being a greater character overall, and a more dangerous antagonist. But Sephiroth takes the title of most pure smurfing awesome, even if I myself can't pinpoint exactly why. The heart wants what the heart wants.
It's just another simple discussion like whether or not it's okay to give money to homeless people or how often a person should go to the dentist. Warning, strong opinions:You should do both as often as you can. I don't care if you feel it's degrading, homeless people don't give a damn. They gotta eat too. And you better be damn proud of the fact that you have the privelege of going to see the dentist because you're too lazy to properly take care of your teeth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I may be wrong, but as I said, I think it's mainly about Kefka vs. Sephiroth. At least from what I've seen. And I don't feel one way or the other about the people that keep the debate alive. They're just voicing their opinions, and it just so happens that their opinion is on a game that's 15 years old. I mean hell, Vharles Manson killed people in the late 60s, but people still have differing opinions on him, don't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I agree with this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
The nostalgia kick is the biggest reason for the debate. And then people decide that it has to be a debate so you gotta be ANTI the other. Then everybody is an idiot because we're all fans of the same series.
The fact of the matter is that they're both rather excellent entries in the series and people just love to bitch. People will argue over anything and it's just annoying, we could all support our team without ragging on the other. Save that for sports.
Also speaking of arguments, I'm reminded of the Halo vs CoD argument. Frankly, it's stupid. One is a hyper realistic first person shooter with a wide array of guns, an engaging story line based on current cultural and political tropes as well as future predictions and fears, and the other is Call of Duty. :greenie:
(but seriously guys. let's be friends.)
I don't really care for either game so I have no opinion on the subject.
I think both sides get annoyed with each other because what many fans say about why they like the title so much.
VI fans get annoyed when they hear VII fans talk about how cool Sephiroth is walking through the fire or his masamune blade.
VII fans get annoyed when they hear VI fans talk about how cool Kefka is with his 8 bit laugh and lines like "Son of a submariner"
Its two cultures clashing. The new, 3D Final Fantasy VII that appealed to the mainstream, or the old, 2D Final Fantasy VI that only a inner circle knew about and cared about. VI fans will bash VII fans as lovers of a trends and fads, which is funny considering VII is still just as loved today as it was 15 years ago, and VII fans will say VI fans are stuck in the past and overwhelmed by nostalgia.
As for the Kefka vs Sephiroth debate, to me its pointless as Sephiroth would barely make my top 10 reasons why Final Fantasy VII is so great. Still though, I prefer him over the "I hate everything I want to kill everything" Kefka. A motive is important. It adds depth to a character. When someone does something just because, suddenly its not very interesting. The greatest villain I know of in video games, Fou-Lu from Breath of Fire IV, is so good mostly because of his deep back story and well developed motives. A villain being "pure evil" and destroying just for the sake of destroying is boring.
VI and VII may share some similarities, but I think they are more different then most people think. Because they are so different if you really like one, the odds are you may not think much of the other. And when you see people running their mouth about how great the one you dont like is, it can upset you.
To me it does seem though that VI fans are more desperate then VII fans, are insanely jealous of the success VII enjoyed while VI was overlooked and generally forgotten.
I know this makes me the most mainstream FF fan in the world but I really liked both VI and VII a heck of a lot.
As for the debate, meh, either way you win.
After so many years FFVI fans are running out of stuff to talk about so theyre taking any chance to pounce
I mostly just roll my eyes and make fun of all involved.
There is not much to debate there, as VIII is terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by fierytempest
But you care enough to post in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
Anyway, I like both. Apparently, you aren't allowed to do that. At least, this is what I have been lead to believe from watching people uselessly debate each other over the two games in question.
See what I did there? I found a way to feel superior to both sides! :cool:
I like them both. I like FFVII a little more. For me FFVIII beats them both.
FFVI and FFVII are polarizing games. They represent the change in an era. One is the end of the 16-bit sprite generation, and the other is the start of the 3D model generation. FFVII put FF on the map, bringing in huge sums of new fans that will consider it their favorite for obvious reasons. Other old-school fans of the 16-bit generation will consider FFVI their favorite. A clash among those two groups was bound to happen. There are also many others, like myself, who consider VI and VII to be the greatest of all the Final Fantasies (and for me, the two greatest video games of all time). You'll naturally want to compare the two.
A videogame placing explicitly VI characters versus VII characters. Who would take the gold in a battle royale?
Cloud versus Locke
Tifa versus Terra
Aerith versus Celes
Barret versus Edgar
Cid versus Setzer
Sephiroth versus Kefka
Rufus versus Mog
No Holds Bard -- lol
A few unfair matchups you have there.
Cloud's power level is considerably above Locke's and Terra's power level is considerably above Tifa's.
Mog is so much more powerful than Rufus that the match is a joke.
Should be Cloud vs Terra
Tifa vs Sabin
Red XIII vs Mog
much more fair.
I think both games are great. In fact, I'd say they are my top two favorite FF games in the whole series. I am drawn to 7 a bit more. I like the customization of the Materia system, even though in 6 everybody can learn any magic and keep the spells even without the Esper attached. 7 was also the first FF game I ever played, so that may have something to do with it, too. If I'd started with 6, I might say that one is my #1 favorite.
6 certainly has one thing going for it that 7 doesn't: Economizers! Casting Ultima for 1 MP can't be beat. :cool:
I roll my eyes. I mean, who gets caught up in these debates? Why do people get at each other's throats over which game is superior?
And then someone says that FFVII is crap and that FFVI is better and I'm all "What!?" and I tell them why they're wrong in no less than 1,000 words. That'll learn 'em!
I would never begin to suggest one is superior to the other. I like them both, but I think I like 7 a little bit better.
If you've read articles about the seven stories that rule the world then you know that there's really no new plot. People have tried but adventure/fantasy genre falls under one of the common categories.
It's pretty easy to imagine a villian wanting to destroy worlds. The Covenant in Halo and countless other fictions. It's all in the presentation. Because Kefka and Sephiroth as well as other characters are involved with familiar settings allows us to easily relate imo.
I'm sure we've read many stories that are outright off the wall. It's all in the preference yet Final Fantasy tries not to dissapoint.
I'm with you here. I really want to call VI the best game in the series, but I just can't because I really am not all that high on the Esper system. I think VII got the blank slate concept a little more right in not forcing the player to attach Espers and grind to have characters learn abilities. In VII, the battle system is Materia, and the characters and weapon/armor slots are just there for you to work out a really cool combination. VI isn't entirely blank slate because every character has their own abilities - but, again, I still feel like there's way too much busy work to make some of the more fun characters effective. Using either Blue Mage in VI (Strago and Gau) feels like it requires the player to go out of his way to make those characters effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha2099
Anyway, answering the thread: I never feel like there's a problem with comparing games to each other, even something like VI and VII that has been going on for like 15 years. We need to have more actual arguments around here about which games are better or worse or whathaveyou. Arguments that don't immediately start out or degenerate into mascot-worship, that is ("VI is better because KEFKA"). Come on people, the gloves need to come off. ;)
That is a very important point, generally the whole package of the game is much more important that having one cool individual part.
I slightly prefer FFVII. But both have incredible merits to them and to say which one is better is unfair to both amazing games.
I want to physically harm people when they fight over these two. Six is more similar to Seven than any other game in the franchise, and vice versa. They also happen to both be absolutely fantastic and are both made by virtually the same key development team.
I understand Seven thrust the franchise into a new level of popularity which Six fans resented, but that was years ago, and Six is immensely popularity now. So please, please stop, people.
Quoted for truth. These are easily my two favorite FFs of the whole series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenshin IV
>>> 2 different games who have nothing in common, FF6 vs FF7 is a stupid debate that has always been nonsensical..:luca:
Now a FF7 vs FF8 would make more sense..
FF8 loses purely because of junctioning. A subpar story doesn't help either. Watch Spoony's review of FF8 for more reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by black orb
To some people, liking both games equally is completely incomprehensible. Why? I always wonder. If there is one thing I will never understand about Homo sapiens, it is our constant need to compare everything.
As dr. Maya Angelou said: "All comparisons are odious."
No one compares FFVII and FFVIII because that's a one-sided battle.
So true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Unless it is some sort of compare and contrast project.