Some of these optional bosses are boring the heck out of me

Okay, so I've just beaten another high-level mark, and this is roughly how the fight went.

"Cockwyrm is now immune to physical damage!"
*some minutes pass due to the amount of annoying pauses caused by clashing spellcasting*
"Cockwyrm is no longer immune to physical damage!"
"Cockwyrm is now immune to magick!"
*another minute passes*
"Cockwyrm is now immune to physical damage! Your party might as well stand around jacking off and casting occasional cure spells!"

This isn't tactical! It's just f***ing waiting!

Is there a way around this? Enemies doing this invincibility thing I mean? The amount of times I've had to just stand around like a twat because BOTH invincibility forms were up...

Also please set my mind at ease and tell me Yiazmat won't be like this.

You can't really get around Palings. That's basically the point in time where the boss gets to wail on you why you have to go defensive with buffs and healing.

Yiazmat doesn't really pull the Paling thing on your party, instead he spams an instant death spell, a few really powerful super attacks, and his normal physical attack is brutal. His two biggest pains in the ass moves is that at half health, his defense rises dramatically and damage caps at 6999hp, and when he's down to about 20 life bars, he begins using Growing Threat that doubles his levels and makes him far more lethal and difficult to hurt. He also likes to cast Reflectga on your party when he's low on health. He likes to buff himself as well with Regen being the most dangerous since he can literally recharge millions of HP in a few seconds, so make sure to dispel his ass ASAP.

Yiazamt's biggest issue is that his high health makes the fight incredibly tedious and can take forever, especially since you can actually leave the battle at any time and backtrack to a save point and as long as he doesn't have the regen status on him before you left, his health will remain the same. I mean I left after I got him down to his last 10% of health and ended up completing several more Mark Hunts and getting a few more items in the Bazaar.

It's possible to beat him in under an hour but requires a pretty specific strategy, maxed levels and multiples of some equipments as well as a fully charged Dark Matter.

Well at least I know it won't keep pulling invincibility out of its ass. I think I've just got the Seer and the Hellwyrm to go before I unlock that. Out of a desire not to have the boss spoiled for me though I best not read the rest of that just yet ;)

Of course I was told it's a two-hour boss fight and I'm not exactly a patient person...

He's more like a six hour boss really depending on your levels. I beat him with a level 70-80 party but it was just the longest and most tedious fight ever. XII is the game that made me realize how stupid million HP super bosses are because even when you do the fights right, it is just a long and boring fight. I'll take FFV's Omega or IX's Ozma over Yiazmat, Omega Weapon (VIII), anything from X's Coliseum, and Vercingetorix(XIII) because Omega and Ozma are fights where that can be determined in a few rounds.

I've always thought that optional boss fights should be determined by character level and not by tedium and tactic. The final boss fight (maybe a post-boss boss like Necron or CoD) should probably be based on tedium and tactic. If post-primary-antagonist boss-fight there is a hidden boss required to "truly" end the game, that creature should still be OPTIONAL. Especially when they seemingly offer nothing obvious to the plot. *another half-hour of rant*
I hope SE can reclaim the true sway it's games once had rather than hoping long-ass boss fights and hackneyed plot will "be enough."

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

He's more like a six hour boss really depending on your levels. I beat him with a level 70-80 party but it was just the longest and most tedious fight ever. XII is the game that made me realize how stupid million HP super bosses are because even when you do the fights right, it is just a long and boring fight. I'll take FFV's Omega or IX's Ozma over Yiazmat, Omega Weapon (VIII), anything from X's Coliseum, and Vercingetorix(XIII) because Omega and Ozma are fights where that can be determined in a few rounds.

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This. I beat Yiazmat with no special party at all, just my usually equiped party and gambits, no special strategy or whatever required. Yiazmat isn't hard. The biggest challenge about Yiazmat is to not give up because you're so damn bored. It's not a fun fight at all, it's just boring and tedious. It took me three months to beat him, simply because I couldn't bring myself to start hacking away endlessly at his lifebars again. When he finally went down, all I felt was relief that it was over, but no satisfaction. Hell Wyrm was a much more entertaining fight.

The palings are cheap, broken and an excellent example of terrible, uninspired game design. A well-designed boss doesn't need invincibility to motivate the use of different tactics or strategies.

It is possible to take out Yaizmat with a party consisting of level 1 fran and level 1 penelo only. It just takes forever.
(hint, stairs_)

Is it really called a "Cockwyrm"?

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Originally Posted by Sylvie

Is it really called a "Cockwyrm"?

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No, it's a Cockgoblin.

Let's cool it with the "creative" nicknaming of monsters.

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Originally Posted by Pete for President

The palings are cheap, broken and an excellent example of terrible, uninspired game design. A well-designed boss doesn't need invincibility to motivate the use of different tactics or strategies.

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I don't mind the paling when they are done right. I like that they force me to be more flexible about strategy and perhaps use builds I normally wouldn't. The Zodiark fight is a good example because he eventually gains a near infinite physical paling so having to fall back on magic was actually kind of interesting for me. I like that they shake that up with players who are use to just pelting monsters with overpowered moves or just trying to melee/cure their way through a problem. So I cannot agree it's lazy design, of anything it shakes up lazy player strategy.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Let's cool it with the "creative" nicknaming of monsters.

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Originally Posted by Pete for President

The palings are cheap, broken and an excellent example of terrible, uninspired game design. A well-designed boss doesn't need invincibility to motivate the use of different tactics or strategies.

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I don't mind the paling when they are done right. I like that they force me to be more flexible about strategy and perhaps use builds I normally wouldn't. The Zodiark fight is a good example because he eventually gains a near infinite physical paling so having to fall back on magic was actually kind of interesting for me. I like that they shake that up with players who are use to just pelting monsters with overpowered moves or just trying to melee/cure their way through a problem. So I cannot agree it's lazy design, of anything it shakes up lazy player strategy.

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Ah yes, but on those occasions when they pull them both out... then it's not strategic. It's cheap and it's lazy.

Just like those chests with an insanely low random chance of giving you a Ribbon or something equally desirable. Screw them with a rusty ice pick.

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Originally Posted by ReloadPsi

Ah yes, but on those occasions when they pull them both out... then it's not strategic. It's cheap and it's lazy.

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I don't see how it's really any diffrent from a barrier change boss or bosses with invincibility modes and nasty counters like Guard Scorpion, Ymir, and the Mist Dragon.

I mean all the boss does is throw a monkey wrench into the players rhythm and strategy by becoming temporarily invulnerable and forcing you to go on the defensive. It's still the same principle concept as the bosses I listed above. It would be cheap and lazy if the boss used this time to say... restore all it's health, but they don't do that, they just change the flow of battle. A lazy boss is the Oblitzerator from FFX, who would be a challenging fight, especially at that early stage in the game but instead, the game makes the fight completely pointless by having the party telegraph the strategy for beating it, and said strategy cripples the boss to the point it losses most of it's health and can perform no action, making victory guaranteed. That's a lazy design boss fight because why would should you bother if the designer is just going to give the win to the player anyway?

The Palings work, because they force the player to change their own strategy and upset their rhythm, so I would argue its a good thing because it forces the player to react instead of just "hit it til it goes down". Yiazmat is probably more of a real argument for a lazy boss fight design since it's more of an endurance match than one that requires real strategy.

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Just like those chests with an insanely low random chance of giving you a Ribbon or something equally desirable. Screw them with a rusty ice pick.

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This I completely agree with. Never again Squenix, I may like FFXII but I will be pissed if you try the random generated chest bulltrout again. I'm already grinding for levels, skills and drops, don't make me farm treasure chests as well. :tonberry:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by ReloadPsi

Ah yes, but on those occasions when they pull them both out... then it's not strategic. It's cheap and it's lazy.

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I don't see how it's really any diffrent from a barrier change boss or bosses with invincibility modes and nasty counters like Guard Scorpion, Ymir, and the Mist Dragon.

I mean all the boss does is throw a monkey wrench into the players rhythm and strategy by becoming temporarily invulnerable and forcing you to go on the defensive. It's still the same principle concept as the bosses I listed above. It would be cheap and lazy if the boss used this time to say... restore all it's health, but they don't do that, they just change the flow of battle. A lazy boss is the Oblitzerator from FFX, who would be a challenging fight, especially at that early stage in the game but instead, the game makes the fight completely pointless by having the party telegraph the strategy for beating it, and said strategy cripples the boss to the point it losses most of it's health and can perform no action, making victory guaranteed. That's a lazy design boss fight because why would should you bother if the designer is just going to give the win to the player anyway?

The Palings work, because they force the player to change their own strategy and upset their rhythm, so I would argue its a good thing because it forces the player to react instead of just "hit it til it goes down". Yiazmat is probably more of a real argument for a lazy boss fight design since it's more of an endurance match than one that requires real strategy.

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The thing is, the palings feel totally out of place as a random way to gain invincibility. Where's the creativity in saying; oh I have a paling now so I'm invincible. And yes, I did pull it out of my ass.

Some random examples of how they could have generated the same effect without a lame trick:
Want invincibility against melee? Make the boss fly out of reach from swords, cover up in a shell, make him hold a big ass shield. Invincibility against magic? Silence the party, dig underground, cover yourself up in element-resistant scales, or eat the magic for all I care. That way it makes sense for someone to change strategy, as there is a logical, fitting reason why a certain tactic isn't working. It gets the environment involved and makes use of the boss's unique characteristics.

That's how I feel about it anyway. Reminds of how simple but sophisticated Vagrant Story's bosses are.

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Originally Posted by Pete for President

The thing is, the palings feel totally out of place as a random way to gain invincibility. Where's the creativity in saying; oh I have a paling now so I'm invincible. And yes, I did pull it out of my ass.

Some random examples of how they could have generated the same effect without a lame trick:
Want invincibility against melee? Make the boss fly out of reach from swords, cover up in a shell, make him hold a big ass shield. Invincibility against magic? Silence the party, dig underground, cover yourself up in element-resistant scales, or eat the magic for all I care. That way it makes sense for someone to change strategy, as there is a logical, fitting reason why a certain tactic isn't working. It gets the environment involved and makes use of the boss's unique characteristics.

That's how I feel about it anyway. Reminds of how simple but sophisticated Vagrant Story's bosses are.

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That was kinda going to be my next argument, damn it :P Yeah, FFX's enemies had some very interesting behaviour.

Also you still haven't actually defended the fact that when they pull BOTH palings out, becoming 100% invincible to both physical AND magick damage, the game becomes a dull-ass wait fest with no strategy whatsoever.

I'm starting to think my recent decision that I actually do like FFXII after all was a bit misinformed.

As you seem to keep missing, my point is that having both invincibility forces the player to play defensively in terms of strategy so it's not really any different from Mist Dragon's Mist mode, Ymir retracting into it's shell, or Guard Scorpion raising it's tail. In all three of those boss fights, you basically just healed up, buffed up, or sat there looking at it until it came out of invincibility.

While I can agree with Pete_for_President that there could have been more creative ways to implement this besides just saying "Hey I put up a physical paling, smurf you" chances are that the game was just too big to do all of that with the hardware at the time. The paling is at least an element in the story as we witness twice that humans use it to protect their cities so it's not just some lame super ability unique to monsters. Of anything, it's scary to realize that said monsters can generate these palings with their own power despite knowing it takes several humans using magicite as a medium to do it.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Mist Dragon's Mist mode, Ymir retracting into it's shell, or Guard Scorpion raising it's tail

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Except none of those took anywhere near as long to wear off, plus those are what, one example per game? Ymir (Is that Whelk? I've only played the GBA version once.) retracts for one turn. Mist Dragon retracts for maybe two at the most (though it does sod all damage in its normal state so you don't even need to heal, plus the point of it was to teach players of this newfangled ATB system that up till now had never been in an FF game). Guard Scorpion's tail helps you grind your Limit Breaks earlier than usual so that one is actually beneficial! It's also worth noting that none of these enemies actually do anything during such turns; they wait to counterattack.

FF4 had its fair share of tactical bosses, sure, but there was always something to be doing because those tactical turns were usually just that: one turn. FF12 pulls this on you all the frakkin' time, does it for ages (i.e. I can attack much times/cast a very large amount of spells before it wears off) and it gets really old. Do you not think I'd be complaining about those examples as well if they were equally as egregious? Plus healing in FF12 isn't nearly as time-consuming as it is in many previous entries, so once you've had your defensive turn, there's plenty more nothing turns coming. Wel, unless there's a Defend command and I missed it completely.

It's still a waste of time, it's still boring, and I wouldn't mind if, as I say, there were no enemies that can do BOTH palings at the same time because being able to do a bitchin' Reflect/Aeroga combo instead of just attacking would be pretty kickass.

I didn't have a problem with the invincibility. It forced me to shake up my traditional battling style and, when the enemy was completely invulnerable, it gave me a chance to withdraw and prepare myself for the next round. I also loved that the invulnerability was consistent with the laws set in the game; that was a really cool little addition.

That wyrm bastard in the desert annoyed the hell out of me, though. Immobilise is a real nuisance when you've no way to cure it!