Kain and Rydia Overrated?

First of all, I just want to say I mean overrated character wise, not in-game use wise.

Anyways, I've always noticed that Kain and Rydia get a lot of praise and are some of the most liked characters in FFIV, but I really never got why they're liked so much.

Kain, fine, I'll admit that his armor looks quite neat and his personality (when he's not a brainwashed traitor) is quite cool. But the fact that he spends a majority of the game letting Golbez control him him kills off my admiration for him as a character. I mean, people always complain about Sephiroth's mommy issues and Tidus' daddy issues, but why does Kain get a free pass with his "oh Rosa doesn't love me" issues? Cecil and Rosa are some of his dearest friends, yet he completely turns on both of them just to get what he wants, even though Rosa wouldn't be happy with him. And no, there was no past with Rosa and Kain being together before Final Fantasy IV's events since the DS version made it very clear in the flashbacks that Rosa was always interested in Cecil even as kids. I wouldn't be suprised if a Kain fan came up with that just to defend Kain.

As for Rydia, I don't find her as bad as Kain, since she doesn't let her jealously turn her into a traitor, but why do people insist on idolizing her as a "strong female"? Sure, I suppose when compared to Rosa she seems that way, but there's plently of times when she breaks down such as casting Fire at Mt. Hobbes and after Edge gets defeated by Rubicant. And yes, Rosa does need help quite a few times like with her Desert Fever and getting kidnapped by Golbez. But it's not like either time it was Rosa's fault. If Cecil had feelings for Rydia and not Rosa, Rydia would've been the one to be kidnapped and it's not like Rosa is any stronger than Rydia because of it. Also, people always seem to overlook Rydia getting knocked out by Titan's summoning (this one is understandable though) and having Cecil protect her from the Baron Guards, yet hold Rosa's desert fever against her.

What do you guys think?

I liked them because of their high damage output!

I think what makes Kain so popular among a lot of the fans is that he's so, well, human compared to a lot of other characters from the Final Fantasy franchise. He's a good guy deep down, but he's also really flawed. It's probably easier for a lot of players to relate to him as opposed to, say, Cecil, because he's not perfect.

Sure he's jealous of Cecil because he's more successful, Rosa loves him, and the King is more fond of him, but brainwashing from Golbez aside, he still shows some traits that can be seen as admirable. He shows remorse for his actions and accepts responsibility for them instead of blaming them on Golbez's control. He even out rightly tells Cecil and Edge to not hesitate to kill him if he gets controlled again, because he knows that Cecil and friends are the last hope of the Blue Planet against Ze(ro)mus and him becoming someone's puppet again could be disastrous. That takes a lot of courage to admit, wouldn't you say? The ultimania also explains how he basically single-handedly restored the Dragoons corps after his father's death, and how he turned down the King's proposal to train as a dark knight too for it. Okay, sure, that only helped fueled his jealousy toward Cecil afterwards, but when you think about it, that was a pretty... well, I wouldn't say it was selfless, but it was SOMETHING alright. "What's that Your Majesty? You are offering me money, success, and more power? No thanks. See, the Dragoons, a long-time Baronian military tradition, have been suffering since the creation of the Red Wings and stuff, so I'll just follow in my old man's footsteps and try to get more recruits in and get the corps rolling again, plzkthx".

Also he's kinda hot, but I've been a rabid Kain fangirl since 1993 or 1994 so that's probably my bias talking here. >_>

As for Rydia, my opinion is that people prefer her because they often completely misinterpret Rosa's character. I think they are both strong female characters, even if they both have their damsel-in-distress moments and their emotional moments. But I think people focus more on Rosa's weaknesses than her strengths because she is the designated love interest, and instead focus more on Rydia's strengths than her weaknesses.

I think Rydia being kinda Final Fantasy's first hot babe, with Bahamut at her fingertips to boot, had a big hand in upping her popularity as well.

Rydia has a natural advantage in the hearts of players because she undergoes a big change in the course of the story. She is introduced to the story as a small child and comes back at a pivotal moment to help you defeat the boss at the time. The boss battle against Golbez is basically a plot point to bring Rydia, who was presumed to be lost, back to you in a round of action. It is unexpected to the player to have Rydia back in the heat of battle. That was never done before.

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Originally Posted by Takara

I think what makes Kain so popular among a lot of the fans is that he's so, well, human compared to a lot of other characters from the Final Fantasy franchise. He's a good guy deep down, but he's also really flawed. It's probably easier for a lot of players to relate to him as opposed to, say, Cecil, because he's not perfect.

Sure he's jealous of Cecil because he's more successful, Rosa loves him, and the King is more fond of him, but brainwashing from Golbez aside, he still shows some traits that can be seen as admirable. He shows remorse for his actions and accepts responsibility for them instead of blaming them on Golbez's control. He even out rightly tells Cecil and Edge to not hesitate to kill him if he gets controlled again, because he knows that Cecil and friends are the last hope of the Blue Planet against Ze(ro)mus and him becoming someone's puppet again could be disastrous. That takes a lot of courage to admit, wouldn't you say? The ultimania also explains how he basically single-handedly restored the Dragoons corps after his father's death, and how he turned down the King's proposal to train as a dark knight too for it. Okay, sure, that only helped fueled his jealousy toward Cecil afterwards, but when you think about it, that was a pretty... well, I wouldn't say it was selfless, but it was SOMETHING alright. "What's that Your Majesty? You are offering me money, success, and more power? No thanks. See, the Dragoons, a long-time Baronian military tradition, have been suffering since the creation of the Red Wings and stuff, so I'll just follow in my old man's footsteps and try to get more recruits in and get the corps rolling again, plzkthx".

Also he's kinda hot, but I've been a rabid Kain fangirl since 1993 or 1994 so that's probably my bias talking here. >_>

As for Rydia, my opinion is that people prefer her because they often completely misinterpret Rosa's character. I think they are both strong female characters, even if they both have their damsel-in-distress moments and their emotional moments. But I think people focus more on Rosa's weaknesses than her strengths because she is the designated love interest, and instead focus more on Rydia's strengths than her weaknesses.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Kain's flaws make him interesting as a character. Nobody likes a Mary-Sue :P

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Originally Posted by Takara

I think what makes Kain so popular among a lot of the fans is that he's so, well, human compared to a lot of other characters from the Final Fantasy franchise. He's a good guy deep down, but he's also really flawed. It's probably easier for a lot of players to relate to him as opposed to, say, Cecil, because he's not perfect.

Sure he's jealous of Cecil because he's more successful, Rosa loves him, and the King is more fond of him, but brainwashing from Golbez aside, he still shows some traits that can be seen as admirable. He shows remorse for his actions and accepts responsibility for them instead of blaming them on Golbez's control. He even out rightly tells Cecil and Edge to not hesitate to kill him if he gets controlled again, because he knows that Cecil and friends are the last hope of the Blue Planet against Ze(ro)mus and him becoming someone's puppet again could be disastrous. That takes a lot of courage to admit, wouldn't you say? The ultimania also explains how he basically single-handedly restored the Dragoons corps after his father's death, and how he turned down the King's proposal to train as a dark knight too for it. Okay, sure, that only helped fueled his jealousy toward Cecil afterwards, but when you think about it, that was a pretty... well, I wouldn't say it was selfless, but it was SOMETHING alright. "What's that Your Majesty? You are offering me money, success, and more power? No thanks. See, the Dragoons, a long-time Baronian military tradition, have been suffering since the creation of the Red Wings and stuff, so I'll just follow in my old man's footsteps and try to get more recruits in and get the corps rolling again, plzkthx".

Also he's kinda hot, but I've been a rabid Kain fangirl since 1993 or 1994 so that's probably my bias talking here. >_>

As for Rydia, my opinion is that people prefer her because they often completely misinterpret Rosa's character. I think they are both strong female characters, even if they both have their damsel-in-distress moments and their emotional moments. But I think people focus more on Rosa's weaknesses than her strengths because she is the designated love interest, and instead focus more on Rydia's strengths than her weaknesses.

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Hm... Alright, I'll give Kain credit for imposing to King Baron that he should be a dragoon and him accepting the blame for his treachery as "honourable." Still, the fact that he turned on Cecil and his allies in the first place out of his jealousy cancels out the honourable things he's done in my eyes. If Cecil was all "I don't trust you around Rosa and I don't want you near her" to Kain I'd sympathize with him more, but Cecil and Rosa have done nothing to hurt Kain, and he backstabs Cecil, claims Rosa as her own, blackmails Cecil into giving him the Earth Crystal (not to mention he came up with that plan and not Golbez), and takes the Dark Crystal from Cecil. Some friend Kain is.

Rydia, you've got me more convinced about her deserved fanbase than Kain. And I'm glad you agree that both Rosa and Rydia are strong females yet have their damsel-in-distress moments yet people focus on Rosa's more than Rydia's. I've always got annoyed at how the same people praising Rydia bash on Rosa. Even without them though, I still think Rydia's praise is a little too much, even if she does have plenty of character development.

As for Roogle's comment, main characters joining mid-boss against the main antagonist has happened before in Fire Emblem Gaiden on the NES. Though I'll admit it's not as mainstream a game as Final Fantasy IV.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

I think Rydia being kinda Final Fantasy's first hot babe, with Bahamut at her fingertips to boot, had a big hand in upping her popularity as well.

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Rosa says hi.

There's also the FF1-3 ladies such as Princess Sarah, Maria, Hilda, Leila, and Aria. But given the limited technology at the time, I don't blame you for skipping them.

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Originally Posted by Evastio

Rosa says hi.

There's also the FF1-3 ladies such as Princess Sarah, Maria, Hilda, Leila, and Aria. But given the limited technology at the time, I don't blame you for skipping them.

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Princess Sarah was an 8-bit minor character that appeared once in a mostly story-less game. Maria, Hilda, Leila and Aria didn't appear in the west until a decade (or more, in Aria's case) after IV. Not that hard to understand why Rydia was often encountered earlier than them and left a bigger impression on people than any of those you mentioned, I'd say.

And though I personally am not of that opinion, most people prefer Rydia over Rosa (I just like them both). Rosa takes more the role of the sweet, supportive female than the hot sexy babe like Rydia does. I think the fact that she's already taken by Cecil makes people knock off points of her hotness level, for some reason. *shrugs* The GBA face-portrait didn't help matters much either, tbh.

No not even close. Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and Aerith however ? Yes.

There's some Final Fantasy fans that have no idea who Kain and Rydia even are.

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Originally Posted by maybee

No not even close. Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and Aerith however ? Yes.

There's some Final Fantasy fans that have no idea who Kain and Rydia even are.

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Well, that's normal for most pre-VII games, actually.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Takara as well.

In respect of Kain, I think Takara is correct that it's his faults and weaknesses which make him interesting. I don't necessarily think that when Kain acts as he does as a villain he's entirely in control of his actions. I always interpreted that (rightly or wrongly) as Kain having desires that he would normally keep suppressed but which allowed Golbez to manipulate him. It was through that manipulation that Kain acts in such a bad way. I shy away from saying evil, because I think to be evil is to be conscious and informed.

I also think that it's how the party reacts to Kain which makes him interesting. It's hard to imagine that Cecil and Rosa will be able to completely trust Kain again. Yet their forgiveness, and their abiding importance to Kain, give him a reason to fight. Avenging his manipulation and winning back the trust of his friends gives him a reason to fight, and to save the world.

Perhaps that makes me a Kain apologist of sorts though!

As for Rydia, I can't help but feel you're being slightly harsh in some of your criticisms. When you refer to Rydia being scared of fire at Mt. Hobbes, you need to consider the context. As a girl of seven, she's just witnessed her village and her family slaughtered by a fire breathing Bomb. I think her aversion to fire is perfectly understandable.

Yes, I'm not saying I condone what Kain did while he was under Golbez's control, nor am I saying we should disregard what he did because he was under Golbez's control. It happened. It was inexcusable. Not disagreeing there.

But as Heath pointed out, normally he's able to suppress his desires. He likely had thoughts like "I wish I could beat Cecil just to show everyone and especially Rosa that he's not so great". Call it Honour, or morals, or whatever, I'm sure he was then quite capable of going "No, I shouldn't think like that, it's wrong" afterwards. Had Kain been able to leave Mist with Cecil after the earthquake, I doubt he would have betrayed him and Rosa of his own volition. It took Golbez to bring that out of him.

As for Rydia, she was seven. I don't know many seven years old who would recover from PTSD as quickly as she did. Heck, I don't even know many adults who could.

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Originally Posted by Jowy

I liked them because of their high damage output!

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You just said that to Rydia because you wanted to get in her pants.

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Originally Posted by Sephex

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Originally Posted by Jowy

I liked them because of their high damage output!

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You just said that to Rydia because you wanted to get in her pants.

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Rydia does not wear pants. :colbert:

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

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Originally Posted by Evastio

Rosa says hi.

There's also the FF1-3 ladies such as Princess Sarah, Maria, Hilda, Leila, and Aria. But given the limited technology at the time, I don't blame you for skipping them.

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Princess Sarah was an 8-bit minor character that appeared once in a mostly story-less game. Maria, Hilda, Leila and Aria didn't appear in the west until a decade (or more, in Aria's case) after IV. Not that hard to understand why Rydia was often encountered earlier than them and left a bigger impression on people than any of those you mentioned, I'd say.

And though I personally am not of that opinion, most people prefer Rydia over Rosa (I just like them both). Rosa takes more the role of the sweet, supportive female than the hot sexy babe like Rydia does. I think the fact that she's already taken by Cecil makes people knock off points of her hotness level, for some reason. *shrugs* The GBA face-portrait didn't help matters much either, tbh.

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I stated in my post that since it was the 8-bit era, its reasonable that women from FFs 1-3 were skipped.

Even with the portrayals that you mentioned in your second paragraph, official FF4 bios (from Square Enix) on sites and guides made it quite clear that Rosa is supposed to be the main beauty of FF4, especially with Cecil, Kain, and Edge liking Rosa, but only Edge liking Rydia. The FF4 Advance manual bio even states that Rosa is "renowned for her beauty across Baron." Also, if Rosa having Cecil lowered her hotness level, I don't see why it did the same to Tifa since she has Cloud (and their relationship is made very clear early in the game, similar to Cecil and Rosa). Regardless, I think you're right about that regarding some fans, that they don't like Rosa as much because she's not single.

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Originally Posted by Heath

I'm afraid I have to agree with Takara as well.

In respect of Kain, I think Takara is correct that it's his faults and weaknesses which make him interesting. I don't necessarily think that when Kain acts as he does as a villain he's entirely in control of his actions. I always interpreted that (rightly or wrongly) as Kain having desires that he would normally keep suppressed but which allowed Golbez to manipulate him. It was through that manipulation that Kain acts in such a bad way. I shy away from saying evil, because I think to be evil is to be conscious and informed.

I also think that it's how the party reacts to Kain which makes him interesting. It's hard to imagine that Cecil and Rosa will be able to completely trust Kain again. Yet their forgiveness, and their abiding importance to Kain, give him a reason to fight. Avenging his manipulation and winning back the trust of his friends gives him a reason to fight, and to save the world.

Perhaps that makes me a Kain apologist of sorts though!

As for Rydia, I can't help but feel you're being slightly harsh in some of your criticisms. When you refer to Rydia being scared of fire at Mt. Hobbes, you need to consider the context. As a girl of seven, she's just witnessed her village and her family slaughtered by a fire breathing Bomb. I think her aversion to fire is perfectly understandable.

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Originally Posted by Takara

Yes, I'm not saying I condone what Kain did while he was under Golbez's control, nor am I saying we should disregard what he did because he was under Golbez's control. It happened. It was inexcusable. Not disagreeing there.

But as Heath pointed out, normally he's able to suppress his desires. He likely had thoughts like "I wish I could beat Cecil just to show everyone and especially Rosa that he's not so great". Call it Honour, or morals, or whatever, I'm sure he was then quite capable of going "No, I shouldn't think like that, it's wrong" afterwards. Had Kain been able to leave Mist with Cecil after the earthquake, I doubt he would have betrayed him and Rosa of his own volition. It took Golbez to bring that out of him.

As for Rydia, she was seven. I don't know many seven years old who would recover from PTSD as quickly as she did. Heck, I don't even know many adults who could.

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So basically, Kain constantly fighting against and suppressing his dark desires, and him fighting to redeem himself after giving into those dark desires is why people like him? I guess I understand now. I personally still hold Kain's traitorous actions against him a bit, but at least I can see where all the praise comes from.

As for Rydia, I guess I am being a little harsh, but I suppose that's mostly from the excessive Rydia praising and Rosa bashing in the past. When I mentioned that Fire example, I was just stating that both Rosa and Rydia have their weak moments (I even mentioned the Desert Fever and kidnapping incident in my opening post). I suppose you're right that Rydia does grow a lot, overcoming her fear of fire and her mother's death. I still think people are a little too crazy about Rydia's hotness, though I appreciate her personality significantly more now that you guys explained it to me (even if she does turn down Edge a lot and doesn't try to get to know him, but I have my personal reasons for not liking that).

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Originally Posted by Evastio

Sure, I suppose when compared to Rosa she seems that way, but there's plently of times when she breaks down such as casting Fire at Mt. Hobbes.

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Already mentioned, but this isn't really a sign of a "weak female character" at all. If she didn't have some kind of trauma after what happened such a short while ago, she'd be one of those exaggerated badasses whom you can't even sympathize with. She'd basically be Conan the Barbarian or something, at the age of 7. Very realistic. :p

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Originally Posted by Evastio

If Cecil had feelings for Rydia and not Rosa, Rydia would've been the one to be kidnapped

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...plus Kain, since part of the reason Rosa gets kidnapped is related to Kains feelings for Rosa as well. So yeah... if you basically changed the whole story around so much that Cecil and Rosa didn't have any relationship from the start, and both Kain and Cecil fell in love with Rydia... then things would obviously have been different, since you've basically changed some of the greater plot-points around completely and reveresed the roles of two characters. What would have happened in such a fanfic does not change what happens in the actual game though, and the "damsel in distress" of FFIV is no doubt Rosa, not Rydia.

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Originally Posted by Evastio

Also, people always seem to overlook Rydia getting knocked out by Titan's summoning (this one is understandable though) and having Cecil protect her from the Baron Guards.

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As you luckily mentioned, a 7 year old girl getting knocked out by an earthquake plus using summoning powers beyond her limit is somewhat understandable. Somewhat. :p

I guess the same argument can be used for the guards too. If Rydia had been adult by that time, those guards would have been charged to crisps. But a 7 year old girl against a bunch of trained soldiers? That might be asking for a tiny bit too much again.

It's not Rosa's fault she gets the desert fever and gets kidnapped etc, but I think her cases are still more "damsel in distress-like" than the cases with Rydia. It still gives her a role in the story that I feel is less interesting than Rydia's. That's my take on it. :greenie:

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

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Originally Posted by Sephex

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Originally Posted by Jowy

I liked them because of their high damage output!

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You just said that to Rydia because you wanted to get in her pants.

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Rydia does not wear pants. :colbert:

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I want to get in her panties!

So my name is Kain and I'm a Dragooooooooooon

I love this girl. She has no brains or anything likable about her but I like her anyway

But then a man from da moon brainwashed this other guy who's from the moon and he brainwashed me

He only could do it because I liked the aforementioned brainless girl and didn't like she was slurping on my best friend's lance and not mine

I say all of this in maybe one scene and it's not even a very memorable scene and then the game proceeds just fine while I take up space story-wise.


Now I am the most belovedest character ever


And this jack-off is more popular than Tellah why...?

How wack do you have to be to get mind controlled by somebody that's being mind controlled?

I didn't know they were considered overrated (though I really think Kain's armor really cool)

Personally, I prefer Cecil to Kain, for his effort in becoming a Paladin and fighting his dark side.

About rydia, I prefer her to Rosa. She has a more interesting story and personality and it seems she has a crush on cecil :love: and, she summons and casts black magic, so, more damage dealt. Rosa has a bow (meh.) and Holy.

I prefer Rydia cuz she's hotter than Rosa. This has been true since the very first time I played FF4.

>>> Rydia maybe... Kain, that guy doesnt even has a fanbase if Im not wrong..:luca:

You are very wrong my friend. Kain is a ridiculously popular character. He was voted one of the most popular male FF characters just recently on a Japanese board.

I say it's all due to Jump and nothing more.

A supernatural force took control of Kain's mind. How, in any way shape or form, can you possibly hold his actions against him?

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

You are very wrong my friend. Kain is a ridiculously popular character. He was voted one of the most popular male FF characters just recently on a Japanese board.

I say it's all due to Jump and nothing more.

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Yeah, I REALLY wish people would stop talking about Kain's Jump as if they had a gun pointed to their head and they'd be shot if they didn't praise it (doesn't happen as much here on EoFF, but it does happen on other sites), as well as people saying that Kain can beat "any pansy" by jumping, avoiding their attacks, and impaling them as he flies down. Yeah, cause jumping and leaving lower defense characters to take hits for you isn't at all pansy-like.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

A supernatural force took control of Kain's mind. How, in any way shape or form, can you possibly hold his actions against him?

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At first I didn't. But with the Kain fanbase praising him so much to the point that it actually sounds like his betrayal was a good thing (especially when there's characters out there like Cid that did more good than Kain could even comprehend doing), I've hated him ever since. Even so, I still hated him a bit for giving into his jealousy towards Cecil (Kain admitted he did have some consent to his traitorous actions after Rosa is rescued) and giving Golbez the idea of bartering Rosa for the Earth Crystal (because treating women like tools and currency is the quickest way to win them over, isn't that right Kain?) even before the Kain fanbase ruined him for me.

...I know I'm being harsh and letting the Nazi-like Kain fanboys that bash on every character that isn't Kain get to me, so I'll just stop here for now.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Japanese.

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>>> Sorry, but I cant take that people seriously when it comes to popularity contests :eep:..:luca:

I love Kain, ever since my first playthrough, having never heard of Kain or FFIV before. I think people love him so much because he's a flawed and tragic character, someone many can relate to, a realistic character. He's an anti-hero and people love anti-heroes and anti-villians because of their dynamic nature; they have constant internal battles with themselves and go through such misery, you can't help but to hate them but feel sorry for them at the same time.

He's much like Walter White, Gustavo Fring and Mike from Breaking Bad; Snape, Wolverine, Vegeta, The Joker, Darth Vader, Sephiroth, all extremely popular and some extremely evil. It's not surprising the characters that are most popular are the anti-heroes/villains or villains themselves, you don't have to like them as a person to love them as a character.

Rydia is a hot and spunky summoner with very human weaknesses and strengths, the first job exclusive summoner in the series. Just the "coolness" factor of flashy summons and a mysterious spear wielding dragoon and their personalities draw people in. They only seem overrated because they are so popular, for good reason. If Kain was all goody goody or Rydia perfect and strong, that wouldn't make for a very good character or story.

Am I the only one who found Rydia's story, well, boring? I couldn't find myself "connecting" with her like I did with the Baron characters.

I don't hate her per se (although I do somewhat resent her constantly being in the limelight at Rosa's expense), I just don't care. To me, she's a walking nuke gameplay-wise and that's it.