Final Fantasy Sexism Part I: Why It Matters

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The accuracy of the common mantra “sex sells” is apparent in all forms of media: from movies and TV shows to magazines to video games. Sexy, scantily clad female characters in video games are widely celebrated, from Lara Croft to, well, the entire Dead or Alive cast. If you were to ask gamers who the most well-known Final Fantasy woman was, the buxom Tifa Lockhart would undoubtedly be a popular response. But these characters have also received criticism for their appearance.

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Some outfits are just impractical.

Commonly, a female character’s outfit or pose is not out of any practical reason such as protection, comfort, or ease of movement, but to arouse the viewer. If video games were to be believed, skin-tight and revealing clothing is the most comfortable and practical clothing available for all circumstances, and that bending over sexily is the most natural position for a woman to be in. But if the male characters tried to similarly show themselves off, the results would be patently silly. Why is this any more tolerable coming from women?

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If the men posed like the women in comics. "HULK GROPE!"

A common response to these points is that the game developers are simply giving the audience what they want, and that men enjoy looking at women. And there’s nothing wrong with that, by itself. But the sexist portrayal of women goes deeper than that. It’s not just the aesthetics by themselves, but the entire way women are portrayed in video games, from their appearance to their personality to their role in the story, that is sexist. The biggest problem being that this is not just in video games; this attitude towards women is indicative of a real-world sexism that pervades our entire culture.

I want to highlight two other types of sexism to you that are readily apparent in video games, and the Final Fantasy series in particular: the overwhelming use of stereotypical gender roles for female characters, and the common dependence that female characters have on more central, male characters to their relevance in the game.

As far as gender roles go, there are a handful of molds that Square-Enix has used for many of its female main characters. Women are typically seen as weaker and more nurturing than men. Is it any surprise then that women tend to be the physically weak healers and magic users in the games? The characters’ personalities are also commonly cookie-cutter: the demanding princess, the whiny brat, the damsel in distress, the passionate love interest.

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Everyone knows that women aren’t logical enough to do math.

The dependence on male characters is a more subtle sign of sexism, but equally important and just as pervasive. The Bechdel Test for measuring sexism in movies requires that there be two named women in the movie who talk to each other about something other than a man. A shocking number of movies do not pass this simple test, because too many women are either token female characters or their roles are almost entirely dependent on a more primary male character (such as the typical love interest).

Why do these matter? Because these types of sexism still exist in the real world. While society has improved a lot, women are still commonly viewed only as family-oriented nurturers who should prioritize having a family and raising children. Women are still underrepresented in many of the most respected professions such as doctors and scientists, and are culturally discouraged from putting forth the effort of seeking them. If you have any doubt that this is still a serious issue, just read this embarrassingly bad article about how women shouldn’t “compete” with men. Female representations in video games may be a pretty small issue regarding sexism in the scheme of things, but the larger issues cannot be combated until we recognize how sexism is guiding our culture.

To see how our cultural views of women pervade our entertainment, just think: how many stereotypically feminine male video game characters can you think of? It is generally acceptable in modern times for women to act stereotypically “masculine” and be strong fighters, but how many lead characters are feminine men? In this same vein, it is generally accepted in real life for women to be “masculine” and do male things, but it is still commonly taboo for men to act “feminine.” Only what is considered for men is an acceptable goal for everyone.

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How many parents would give their boy toddler pink clothes and dolls?

In the next part of this series, I will start going through the Final Fantasy games and highlighting some examples of sexism. Final Fantasy is certainly not immune from the types of sexism I outlined above, and some of the games in the Playstation 1 and 2 era were particularly bad examples of sexist portrayals of women. But not all of the games were bad, and I think some Final Fantasy games even deserve praise for their treatment of women characters.

Before I get into the specific games, I will close with a brief disclaimer. I am a Final Fantasy fan, and I enjoyed playing many of these games, even ones which are some of the worst offenders when it comes to blatant sexism. This article series is not about gameplay or plot or how fun a game is, but exclusively about how women have been portrayed among the playable characters throughout the main Final Fantasy series.

So what were the worst examples of sexism in Final Fantasy? Is the series now better or worse? Is sexism in video games even a problem? My overview of the Final Fantasy series will begin in two weeks, but feel free to discuss your thoughts in the meantime.


Other parts in this series:

Part I
Part II

Your image attachments are broken :<

Good piece though.

Huh? All of the images work for me.

EDIT: Oh, hah, I figured out what happened. I tried to be fancy and link some of the images back to their source, which included using the attached image's URL. This apparently does not count as "using" a newly-attached image, so the link was broken after the post was actually made (but still showed up in my cache). Fixed.

Now that the images are fixed, I'm very looking forward to it! You should do another follow-up series on Racism in Final Fantasy.

This is really well written!

I look forward to reading the rest of it before I interject with any thoughts on this as I daresay the ones I will raise will be covered in the next part. :) If it's anything like this one it should be a very decent read!

You should judge a game in its social milieu. In this case the whole environment around video games has changed (a good thing), it isn't where it should be (hope it gets there) but something that was socially progressive in the 1960s can be seen as blatantly racist/classist in 2013.

It is not entirely fair to judge a game from the late 80s by standards today- you wouldn't really compare the graphics of FF1 with FF13 directly, the more fair comparison is FF1's graphics (and portrayal of women) vs 1987 games' graphics (and portrayal of women) and FF13's portrayal of women vs how women in games are portrayed in 2010.

You also did not touch on what is culturally influenced and was is innate- will this be mentioned at all?

I think he plans on having 3-5 articles about it ranging from 1-13 or something so I'm sure he'll most likely cover it all!

I'm with Dr. rydrum on this one. Final Fantasy are Japanese cultural products. You can't just apply a western-originated approach to them.
I'm not saying you're wrong on the sexism issue - Japan's society is even worse and more backwards on the sexism front and that's something that should be dealt with. But it's going to take a closer look at other facets of Japanese culture and their influence on the FF games to get a bigger picture, rather than using an approach focusing on specific elements (ie portrayal of women in this case) in the same way you would with an american piece of media, to get a perspective of what exactly is going on.

Just throwing this out there, we all saw what happens to FF with a leading female with no love interest and who wasn't a typical girly female lead

*Cough*XIII*Cough*

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Just throwing this out there, we all saw what happens to FF with a leading female with no love interest and who wasn't a typical girly female lead

*Cough*XIII*Cough*

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She was criticised for it! :monster:

I really enjoyed this piece Raistlin, and I do hope you'll write some more. I'm going to be writing another character spotlight for January on a lead female character and this has given me some ideas.

Also, as a side note. HOW PRETTY IS THE ARTICLES SECTION RIGHT NOW I COULD JUST DIE!

:heart:

Great article, Raist. I'm looking forward to reading the others.

FFXII 4 lyf

This is probly the first time I've ever commented on something. Love the article. Also yuna gave me a boner in X-2. I'm not lying.

Well, that quickly took a turn for the worse.

Thanks for the compliments, everyone. FYI, I expect this series to last maybe 3 more articles (subject to change), and I'll be trying to get them out every two weeks until it's over.

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Originally Posted by Formalhaut

Now that the images are fixed, I'm very looking forward to it! You should do another follow-up series on Racism in Final Fantasy.

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This is something I thought of, actually. There's nothing definite planned yet, and I still have a couple of months of this series to get through, but it's a consideration. I'll see how I feel after this series is over.

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Originally Posted by Dr. rydrum2112

You should judge a game in its social milieu. In this case the whole environment around video games has changed (a good thing), it isn't where it should be (hope it gets there) but something that was socially progressive in the 1960s can be seen as blatantly racist/classist in 2013.

It is not entirely fair to judge a game from the late 80s by standards today- you wouldn't really compare the graphics of FF1 with FF13 directly, the more fair comparison is FF1's graphics (and portrayal of women) vs 1987 games' graphics (and portrayal of women) and FF13's portrayal of women vs how women in games are portrayed in 2010.

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I'm a little confused by this criticism, as I have not yet mentioned anything that could be considered a contrary point. Regardless, most of the games I will discuss in this series came out in the '90s and 2000s. Those were not entirely different times. Sexism from 10-20 years ago may be a little more excusable but it is certainly not entirely forgivable and immune from criticism. Additionally, the main point of this article is not to hammer on the games for being sexist, but to make people more aware of sexist portrays of women -- recognition of sexism in those games, rather than just a critique of the games in question.

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You also did not touch on what is culturally influenced and was is innate- will this be mentioned at all?

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This is a subject I'm personally very interested in, but I'm trying to keep the rest of this series FF-centric -- explaining how some of the female characters fit into stereotypes/gender roles, but not really delving into the issue of cultural vs. genetics regarding these roles and differences between the sexes (which is worthy of its own series somewhere). My own long-held position is that gender roles and gender-oriented personality stereotypes are largely cultural inventions. This has been supported by modern cultural shifts, where more women are being raised to be independent and encouraged to pursue previously male-dominated careers, and more and more women are doing exactly that.

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Originally Posted by kotora

I'm with Dr. rydrum on this one. Final Fantasy are Japanese cultural products. You can't just apply a western-originated approach to them.
I'm not saying you're wrong on the sexism issue - Japan's society is even worse and more backwards on the sexism front and that's something that should be dealt with. But it's going to take a closer look at other facets of Japanese culture and their influence on the FF games to get a bigger picture, rather than using an approach focusing on specific elements (ie portrayal of women in this case) in the same way you would with an american piece of media, to get a perspective of what exactly is going on.

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An analysis/criticism of Japanese culture could be an entirely different series in its own right. I'm trying to make this a bit manageable length; the only concession I gave myself was this introduction, to try to rebut some more common counterarguments when accusations of sexism in media are brought up (plus I wanted the excuse to use the awesome comics). The main point of this article is recognition of sexism and why it's sexist, not an analysis on why a Japanese company included it in its games. This is equally relevant to Western societies as well, where some similar sexist prejudices are commonly held. The FF series, for example, has been widely played in Western societies, and I would say most people do not even realize how sexist some of the female portrayals are, and even if they did, likely did not consider it anything bad or worth criticizing. That sort of thinking is what I'm trying to address.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

I'm a little confused by this criticism, as I have not yet mentioned anything that could be considered a contrary point.

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Congratulations, Raistlin! You now know a tiny sliver of a fraction of how Anita Sarkeesian feels, a woman who was attacked, abused, and the subject of an internet hate campaign for merely suggesting that sexism/feminism should be talked about in reference to video games and before she had even said anything substantive about it!

Also, I'm really excited for the rest of this article series. Looking forward to it!

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

I'm a little confused by this criticism, as I have not yet mentioned anything that could be considered a contrary point. Regardless, most of the games I will discuss in this series came out in the '90s and 2000s. Those were not entirely different times. Sexism from 10-20 years ago may be a little more excusable but it is certainly not entirely forgivable and immune from criticism. Additionally, the main point of this article is not to hammer on the games for being sexist, but to make people more aware of sexist portrays of women -- recognition of sexism in those games, rather than just a critique of the games in question.

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and @Axem

I have not seen any criticism in the comments. I simply pointed out that people often judge things on an absolute scale, and this is not always fair. And Kotora points out a similar aspect in terms of culture. And I should also say that I think its a good idea this is talked about.

As for the cultural influence: I guess from my point of view, stating a role or character trait is sexist because it is traditionally affiliated with one sex does not mean it is. [Clearly, I am not talking about the obvious a la female super hero outfits]. I am a feminist, but I am also a scientist and the truth matters to me. To say that a portraying females as more nurturing is sexist because it is due to culture is bs. Women are on average more nurturing than men (to lazy to find the Buss citation). So I will be interested in how you will discuss sexist stereotypical gender roles, and am sure you will do a good job.

As for the science thing, it is a shame there is not more women in the field and I wish more women were pushed in that direction (in my graduate experience I would say that the 3 smartest students I knew were all female), but that doesn't mean that devoid of cultural influence scientists would be 50% male and 50%. And I don't really see anything wrong with that, as long as people get a fair chance at doing what they want.

So bottom line- I was not criticizing you, or what you are going to write about - just offering an opinion on comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Axem Titanium

Congratulations, Raistlin! You now know a tiny sliver of a fraction of how Anita Sarkeesian feels, a woman who was attacked, abused, and the subject of an internet hate campaign for merely suggesting that sexism/feminism should be talked about in reference to video games and before she had even said anything substantive about it!

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You mean the same woman who took kickstarter donations and never applied it to anything or has anything to show from it but is now making a living off of how "attacked by sexist trolls" she was by going to various places and "talking" about? Please, as a woman, Anita Sarkeesian can shove it. You can't say "i'ma make this!" then not make it and just live off the royalties of getting bullied. Sure you got bullied, whoopdie do. It is a problem, it is an issue but finish what the ef you said you would do. It was June when the kickstarter ended JUNE. It's a whole new year and you have nothing to show for it but TEDx talks and the like about how bullied you were over the project/ (which tedx isn't even TED, it's privately funded stuff so it's really not even worth much as TED doesn't directly support it. Anyone can host a TEDx talk) argh. Stop talking about how bullied you were and work on your damn project. That woman. /rant over

Fun fact: Freya does not like Anita Sarkeesian

Raistlin, will you be discussing the socio-political history of Japan, and how its neighbouring countries - in particular, China - may have effected its development in that regard? Any word on whether you'll be looking into the effects American brutality during the aftermath of WW2 may have had some effect on Japanese gaming development? Do you think if Subotai, Khan's greatest general, had marched east towards Japan, that would have stifled or accelerated the gaming industry's progress?

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Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland

Raistlin, will you be discussing the socio-political history of Japan, and how its neighbouring countries - in particular, China - may have effected its development in that regard? Any word on whether you'll be looking into the effects American brutality during the aftermath of WW2 may have had some effect on Japanese gaming development? Do you think if Subotai, Khan's greatest general, had marched east towards Japan, that would have stifled or accelerated the gaming industry's progress?

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what about Sherman's march to the sea?

Not relevant. Nobody named Sherman could ever have an effect on women.

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Originally Posted by Dr. rydrum2112

As for the cultural influence: I guess from my point of view, stating a role or character trait is sexist because it is traditionally affiliated with one sex does not mean it is.

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I agree with this, and it is something I have planned on addressing. Having one particular woman being a weak healer, by itself, is nothing. In fact, I don't think Vanille's role in FFXIII is very sexist at all. The problem is not one instance, but using women almost exclusively in gender-stereotyped roles -- which is sexist because male characters have traditionally not been so limited.

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To say that a portraying females as more nurturing is sexist because it is due to culture is bs. Women are on average more nurturing than men (to lazy to find the Buss citation).

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This is true, but that doesn't mean that all women are automatically "made" that way and that such a perception is beyond criticism; they are affected by the gender stereotypes and prejudices of their culture. Just because something's a fairly accurate representation of the mean does not mean we must be content with that mean and society as-is.

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Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland

Raistlin, will you be discussing the socio-political history of Japan, and how its neighbouring countries - in particular, China - may have effected its development in that regard? Any word on whether you'll be looking into the effects American brutality during the aftermath of WW2 may have had some effect on Japanese gaming development? Do you think if Subotai, Khan's greatest general, had marched east towards Japan, that would have stifled or accelerated the gaming industry's progress?

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I've tentatively renamed the second entry in this series to "Final Fantasy Sexism: smurf it, let's talk about Japanese history and how it developed over the centuries to what it is today, how that history impacted the that culture's view of women, how that culture has impacted the development of the video game industry, and how that industry has impacted the Final Fantasy series, part 2 of 8000."

* Raises hand *

Yes I'm another woman who loathes Anita Sarkeesian.

She's nothing but a con-artist. She asked for a few thousand dollars for a project to study sexism in gaming and she gained enough money to buy a house, a about $ 150,000.

Where is the project ? Nowhere.

Where is Anita ? She's disappeared from the inter-webs minus her TEDX talks which are pity parties.

And even if she's not a con-artist her so called " sexist rants " were epic fail. Her creepy/sexist xmas songs video comes to mind. She says that " All I want for xmas is you " is sexist towards females because, the song is all about wanting a man for Christmas and it would be better to sing a song about family or sharing and then she goes that she wants a Buffy the Vampire set for Christmas.

Rrrright. So wanting a BF is wrong, but wanting a selfish gift for yourself is not ?

The girl deserved every trolling and Internet bullying that she got.

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The girl deserved every trolling and Internet bullying that she got.

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This is quite possibly one of the most disturbing things I've seen on EoFF. Like, it is legit scary to see this kind of thinking here in our nice little corner of the internet. No, she did not deserve the absolutely heinous misogyny and harassment from thousands, some of which were violent in nature that was directed toward her. She did not deserve DEATH THREATS. And whether or not she'll follow through on her kickstarter project is one thing, the fact that the harassment came as an immediate reaction to the project itself, and not whether she took the money and ran, is the real issue. And you do realize how kickstarter works, right? It's based on DONATION. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head to force you to donate. She got a lot of people to donate. So smurfing what?

To act like the lack of project updates is the reason behind the misogyny and vitriol directed toward her is deluded and disingenuous. It's bad when it comes from guys, worse still when it comes from other women. Ugh.

She SHOULD talk about the absolutely insane and over the top sexist reaction she received because that's part of her job description. She's a feminist media critic. She should talk about it, she she bring attention to it, and maybe the discourse will help better the situation so that the next time someone dares to bring up sexism inherent in video games, the reaction won't be quite so idiotic.

This is going way off topic.

I think this series by Raistlin is brilliantly written which I think is the first nice thing I've said about Raistlin ever. But I do believe that if a female had posted it, it would be taken in a different, "serious business feminist" sort of way. Which is part of the problem now, isn't it?

Oh my god. :roll2

/headesk

When you are attacking a beloved fandom where beloved characters are involved eg- Princess Peach, Lara Croft. You are going to tick people off and make them mad. Anita should of known what she was heading into. Even females dislike her and she was supposed to be "fighting " for their gender.

I didn't say that she deserved the death threats, so calm down and take your chill pills.

No her TedX talks are always about "how hard down by she was and how she's defended a ton of trolls and how she's like this big massive hero of the Internet " Which is a load of BS.

I didn't say that she pushed or forced people into donating. I said that she took a trout load of money from people's pockets promising a project and then vanished showing no sexism in gaming project whatsoever.

If you want to support somebody who has coughed up $ 150,000 from innocent people who believed that she was going to use their hard earned cash for a project to do with sexism and then didn't, be my guest.

So smurfing what ?

So smurfing what ?

Oh. my. god.

She created what looks like a false project, lied to people, coughed up money from them and then left. That's smurfing con-artist trout right there.

Yes it wrong to be violent and overaggressive to somebody and it is disgusting to send somebody a death-threat, but is it better to manipulate people and scam others ? I don't think so.

She is a gobtroute, but still, the over-reaction to her gobtroutery was entirely unjustified and inexcuseable.

She didn't deserve the hate, she didn't. Saying she did is wrong. Miriel is correct about that.

As Raistlin most likely will point out, there are blatant things that will need to be changed in this industry. She's right in that. Her presentation though and her follow through are not the most ideal. The way she's going about it just doesn't seem like it's the best course of action to me. She walks into a biker bar and yells "harleys suck, change your ways!" Then complains that they beat her ass. Instead of trying to slowly integrate the idea of sexism in video games = bad she decides to jump headfirst in to the shark tank and then lives off of their reaction. What'd you think was gonna happen?

If you're going to poke the fire like you did, show something from your efforts. That's my beef with her. Maybe just growing up as a female gamer, I know how to react to sexist guys. Heck I get it all the time at my work "do you actually play games or do you just work here?" It's bothersome and needs to change but it's also the culture of gaming. If you want to be involved at all as a female you have to know this atmosphere. We're lucky with the Final Fantasy series, it's not nearly as bad as some others out there. In fact our little corner of the internet has a surprisingly abundance of females. It is a problem but one we already know exists. If you're going into it without knowing that, as a feminist media critic, then you probably haven't done your research.

Just show some of your project and we'll be better. Not good, but better.

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Originally Posted by maybee

When you are attacking a beloved fandom where beloved characters are involved eg- Princess Peach, Lara Croft. You are going to tick people off and make them mad. Anita should of known what she was heading into. Even females dislike her and she was supposed to be "fighting " for their gender.

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This is the biggest problem here. That you seem to equate critiquing something to be "attacking" it. If you seriously can't see the sexism issues with Princess Peach... I don't even know. She wasn't attacking the gaming industry, just like Raistlin isn't attacking Final Fantasy. You can look at something intelligently and say, "Hey, look at these issues of sex/race/violence/etc within this game" and still like the game.

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I didn't say that she deserved the death threats, so calm down and take your chill pills.

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You said she deserved *all* the bullying she received. The death threats were part of that, which was why I found your comment so disturbing.

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No her TedX talks are always about "how hard down by she was and how she's defended a ton of trolls and how she's like this big massive hero of the Internet " Which is a load of BS.

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Can you clarify, why exactly it's bulltrout? She did handle the abuse remarkably well. And she did get what someone else aptly described as a scorched earth campaign. I don't think I have ever seen anything like it on the internet. It was incredible in it's hatefulness. I think this was a unique opportunity for anybody to take a look at the situation and talk about it.

She was threatened with death, rape and violence. Do you get that? Do you understand that there was a video game created where you can "beat the bitch up"? That there were attempts to distribute her home address and phone number. And you think that her talking about this kind of abuse is a pity party? I am so glad she is talking about this, shedding light on this ugly dark side of the internet and of the gaming community. How can you view her talk on Tedx and not be disgusted on her behalf? I just can't even comprehend.

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I didn't say that she pushed or forced people into donating. I said that she took a trout load of money from people's pockets promising a project and then vanished showing no sexism in gaming project whatsoever.

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You know this... how? As far as I can see, she has been updating her backers on kickstarter. And from what I understand, she initially wanted to do a few quick videos with the $5000 she originally asked for in the campaign. Just enough for her to cover her rent and expenses while she took on this project. Then, with the huge influx in funds, she revamped the project to be more in depth and with higher production value.

This takes time. My videographer for my wedding quoted me with a timeline of 8 MONTHS for one video. Anita is make 5+ videos. Her biggest mistake is that she probably took on more than she could handle and wasn't as up front about the progress as she should be. But I'm not mad at that. I miss deadlines at times too. All eyes are on her, do you really think that she would be giving herself more media exposure while simultaneously expecting to run off with the money?

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[B]If you want to support somebody who has coughed up $ 150,000 from innocent people who believed that she was going to use their hard earned cash for a project to do with sexism and then didn't, be my guest.

She created what looks like a false project, lied to people, coughed up money from them and then left. That's smurfing con-artist trout right there.

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The hate towards her began before her kickstarter campaign even ended. You are lying to yourself if you believe that the money or production delay was the reason why you, or others hated her.

Her timeline for the video was late fall or early winter. Did you or others wait until early winter to start hating her? Did you wait 6 months and then decide, "hey, it's so terrible that she's late on the project, she is a horrible person and deserves bullying!" I somehow doubt it.

I don't agree with everything she has to say, but yes, I do support her. I don't even have to like her or her project but I do support her against the rampant sexism that was exhibited in reaction to her.

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Yes it wrong to be violent and overaggressive to somebody and it is disgusting to send somebody a death-threat, but is it better to manipulate people and scam others ? I don't think so.

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She didn't manipulate anyone. And yes, it is worse to send death threats, to make racist remarks, sexist remarks, make video games where you can beat her up, all worse than one girl making a kickstarter campaign unless her campaign was to kill kittens and puppies.

You haven't seen any videos yet, Miriel. You never know what might be in them. Maybe mass puppy immolation will be an act of protest? :(

ITT: feminist critique on vidya is bad because it's feminist critique.

And apparently a research project the scope of 150k needs to be finished within 5 measly months or you're a con artist. Wtf people!

If she is in fact killing puppies, I'd be the first to line up with pitchforks.

This is the comment she made in September in regards to another attack on her via 4chan:

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...the questions you had regarding release dates and extra funding were specifically answered in update #8. Please understand that I get asked the same questions dozens of times and so I try to respond to those questions collectively in my updates (again see update #8). When I have more details ready to share, the backers will be the first to know...

...I know it might be hard for you to accept but I'm doing this project out of love for gaming as a medium and a strong desire to see games and the industry realize their amazing potential. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to work, these video games aren't going to play themselves.

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So, yeah. Totally just taking the money and running, right? Right?

Sorry about derailing the thread. :o But specifically when I see women who can't stand in solidarity with another woman in the face of such horrid misogyny, it actually makes me really sad. I realize it's holding women to a higher standard than men, but it makes me want to sit down with you and plead, please please please don't be that kind of girl. You don't have to agree with her, but at least support her as another female who did not and continues not to deserve the horrible sexist attacks aimed at her. I believe that there is sexism in gaming, but even if you don't, the reaction to Anita pointing out sexism in gaming unequivocally proves sexism within the gaming community.

What if they were misogynistic puppies? :holmes:

this isn't derailing the thread. The whole idea of these threads is to get into topics like this, who cares if it is a slight deviation from the exact thread starter?

Good article. I look forward to the exploration of the specific games.

I have not kept updated with the Sarkeesian case. I know the general story and the backlash against her. For the sake of argument, I'll accept maybee's accusation that she's a lying, douchebag scam artist.

In no way, shape, or form, does that adequately address the vicious attacks against her, which started coming her way even before any funding controversy, just in response to her campaign (from what I heard; again, I have not been following closely and may not have the most accurate info). You can disagree with someone's argument without resorting to harassment, and the harassment she started facing was clearly and obviously not only a emotional response from a still largely patriarchal culture, but a response to the arguer's (Sarkeesian's) sex. I want to address the xkcd comic I posted in this article: when a woman does something, her entire sex is judged, not just her. Based on these sexist prejudices, it's easy to dismiss a woman's complaint about sexism as just another "feminazi." And regardless of the circumstances, a woman's sexuality is almost always made relevant by men. How often have you glanced at the comments of some article that has a picture of a woman in it -- say, a female scientists in a lab coat -- and saw a variety of discussion regarding who would and would not "hit that"? Boy, if you think video games are sexist, they have nothing on the internet.

I'm starting to ramble a bit here, but I think it's clear that she would have been dealt with entirely differently presenting the same argument under the same circumstances if she was a man. And that is a problem, above and beyond the substance of her argument.

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Originally Posted by maybee

When you are attacking a beloved fandom where beloved characters are involved eg- Princess Peach, Lara Croft. You are going to tick people off and make them mad. Anita should of known what she was heading into.

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I uh... really? Yes, maybe she should have known teenage, predominately male gamers are immature assholes who will willingly threaten and harass women they don't like. That in no way excuses their conduct.

And so because I'm criticizing Tifa Lockhart, and drawing a comparison to Lara Croft in that context, does that mean I can expect a severe backlash as well?

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You are lying to yourself if you believe that the money or production delay was the reason why you, or others hated her.

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This is probably the only thing Miriel's said here that I take serious issue with. I don't see any reason here to attribute a bad motive to maybee personally, and I'm sure they could be some people out there who really do just dislike her for the delay and perceived dishonesty. I do, however, feel comfortable saying that that was not the impetus for the backlash against her.

For the record, I have yet to see any persuasive evidence that she is actually running off with anyone's money. I think, based on what is available, that that story was largely fabricated based on a disagreement with her message. I don't think people would have jumped so soon to "oh now she's running off with everyone's money" had it been for a project they agree with.

smurfyouraistyourastupidpaedoifyoudontlikelaracroftstitsyouaregaysmurfingfaggotgokillyourself

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Originally Posted by Miriel

If you seriously can't see the sexism issues with Princess Peach... I don't even know.

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Do you realize that Peach is one of the most powerful fighters within Brawl right ? Peach is a old character made when gaming was still really new, but Nintendo are starting to improve her- even giving her, her own game as the hero and saving the men instead of the other way around. They are starting to take the right step forward.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

She wasn't attacking the gaming industry, just like Raistlin isn't attacking Final Fantasy. You can look at something intelligently and say, "Hey, look at these issues of sex/race/violence/etc within this game" and still like the game.

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I didn't say that she was. I said that she was attacking people's beloved favourite characters, which pisses people off.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You said she deserved *all* the bullying she received. The death threats were part of that, which was why I found your comment so disturbing.

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There's a difference between bullying and being a right disturbing creep. Bullying/ Death threats are totally different.

Well I found your comment insulting, judgemental, hurtful and rude saying that I was so disturbing and that I was disturbing the peace within these lovely forums.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Can you clarify, why exactly it's bulltrout? She did handle the abuse remarkably well. And she did get what someone else aptly described as a scorched earth campaign. I don't think I have ever seen anything like it on the internet. It was incredible in it's hatefulness. I think this was a unique opportunity for anybody to take a look at the situation and talk about it.

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Because she went on to 4chan and trolled the boards. She wanted some of the trouble so she could use the trolling in her favour. She actually downright trolled the boards which are infamous for trolling, so she could play the victim card and she's pulled it off well. When you go and poke the wasp's nest on purpose then it's hard for some people to have respect for you.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

She was threatened with death, rape and violence. Do you get that?

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Again bullying/ being a disgusting creep = totally different.

Bullying = being a assface/ troll.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Do you understand that there was a video game created where you can "beat the bitch up"?

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Yes I do and with the hate and anger she caused I'm not surprised.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

That there were attempts to distribute her home address and phone number. And you think that her talking about this kind of abuse is a pity party?

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The way she has tricked people into giving her cash- enough to buy a house, the way she trolled 4chan so she'll grab more haters and more attention towards her being attacked, says yeah. Pity Party to the max.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

I am so glad she is talking about this, shedding light on this ugly dark side of the internet and of the gaming community. How can you view her talk on Tedx and not be disgusted on her behalf? I just can't even comprehend.

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You do realize that tons and tons of people get abused and bullied and teased and even commit suicide because of net bullying and trolling each day right ? These people are innocent and have done nothing wrong. It's really sad and tragic, and I have been bullied online alot. This girl however went looking for trouble on 4chan.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You know this... how?

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Because it's been about seven months now. It's been ages and nothing.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

This takes time. My videographer for my wedding quoted me with a timeline of 8 MONTHS for one video. Anita is make 5+ videos. Her biggest mistake is that she probably took on more than she could handle and wasn't as up front about the progress as she should be. But I'm not mad at that. I miss deadlines at times too. All eyes are on her, do you really think that she would be giving herself more media exposure while simultaneously expecting to run off with the money?

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Yeah but have much money did you have ? Assuming that you didn't have the cash that she has right now. And she's meant to be this girl that has been gaming since she was ten. You'll think that her knowledge would help things go faster. It just feels like a huge fib.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

The hate towards her began before her kickstarter campaign even ended. You are lying to yourself if you believe that the money or production delay was the reason why you, or others hated her.

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No people dislike her for many, many different reasons. The reasons why I dislike her is because her project seems fishy and she's so sexist towards males in her videos. So it's okay to say that a love song if sang by a male makes him a stalker ? Saying that male gamers are 30 years old and living in their male basements ?

Double standards.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Her timeline for the video was late fall or early winter. Did you or others wait until early winter to start hating her? Did you wait 6 months and then decide, "hey, it's so terrible that she's late on the project, she is a horrible person and deserves bullying!" I somehow doubt it.

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No. Again there is different reasons why both males AND females like myself can't stand her. Yes those who said the rape comments and death threats are low, going too far and disgusting. But if somebody trolls her and bullies her ( and I mean bullying as in not the death threats included ) I'm not going to feel sorry for the girl.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

She didn't manipulate anyone. .

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You believe that she hasn't manipulated anybody, but I believe that she has manipulated tons and not just with the sexism in video gaming project.

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Originally Posted by kotora

And apparently a research project the scope of 150k needs to be finished within 5 measly months or you're a con artist. Wtf people!

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:greenie:

It's been seven months not five.

Those who are mad with me, please watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2sNUhskwlI

I can understand focussing the topic of a discussion when you don't have access to a large amount of money. So her original Tropes vs Women idea seemed fine to me with her limited resources. She was just pointing out one thing at a time. I will be disappointed and smurfing pissed if, now that she has considerable funds, she doesn't make a full Tropes vs series, regarding all/most of the stereotypes surrounding gaming and other mediums. Media. Bloody Latin. Hell, even better would be if she spent the minimum amount of money on the series and instead put the money to a more practical use. Discussion is an excellent place to start something, but she's well passed that now. It's already been started, even without the series, so the money she's raised could be put to a much better use. Maybe that's just me; I prefer the idea of saving one person than publicising the struggles of one hundred.

Having said that, she constantly gives off the vibe - by her words and actions and general demeanour - that she only started the project in the first place because "feminism is popular" and "gaming is popular" so combining the two is the fast track to fame. I can't stand people like that, despite the fact that I think the project is a good idea.

That video was quite silly. The guy would drive sensibly towards an excellent point, then veer off into the bushes of irrelevance before he reached the... uh, the T-junction of reason.

You know, I am so so tempted to just let this go. Really. Despite whatever you might think maybee, I'm not trying to be "rude" in my responses to you. I literally look at your posts and feel exhausted. The sheer weight of the internalized sexism is too much some times. It just makes me weary and disappointed.

But I'll give this one more go, on the off chance that you might be able to see a different perspective on this.

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Originally Posted by maybee

Do you realize that Peach is one of the most powerful fighters within Brawl right ? Peach is a old character made when gaming was still really new, but Nintendo are starting to improve her- even giving her, her own game as the hero and saving the men instead of the other way around. They are starting to take the right step forward.

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You are absolutely right that Nintendo has been improving Princess Peach. But why? Why are they improving her? Do you think the change is happening in a vacuum? No, it's because people spoke out about disliking how much of a damsel in distress she was all the time. It's because they realized that maybe people would enjoy having a female character who is more than a trophy given to the male protagonist as a prize. This is what it means to critically analyze sexism in video games. To look at the issues, history, foundation and then see where there can be improvements. And in this case, Nintendo is making improvements. But that doesn't mean that they can't make more improvements or that it's somehow wrong to look at the evolution of Princess Peach and see the issues of sexism within it.

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I didn't say that she was. I said that she was attacking people's beloved favourite characters, which pisses people off.

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But, that's exactly what you did say. And what you're continuing to say. I have to state it again, she is not "attacking" anything. She is critiquing it. You have to understand the difference.

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There's a difference between bullying and being a right disturbing creep. Bullying/ Death threats are totally different.

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Definition of bullying via Wiki: Bullying is the use of force or coercion to abuse or intimidate others. The behavior can be habitual and involve an imbalance of social or physical power. It can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.

Bullying consists of three basic types of abuse – emotional, verbal, and physical. It typically involves subtle methods of coercion such as intimidation.

Threats of death, rape, and violence are all part of bullying. I'm really surprised that you're trying to separate the most heinous aspects of the abuse thrown at Anita as not being bullying.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Do you understand that there was a video game created where you can "beat the bitch up"?

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Yes I do and with the hate and anger she caused I'm not surprised.

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You're not surprised. Ok. Does that mean you're ok with it? Or you're surprised but still think it's totally and completely messed up and disgusting? I hope it's the latter. But really, this one comment made me just sit and blank out for a bit because I can't comprehend any woman (or man for that matter) who would see something like that and their response is just that it doesn't surprise them.

I don't believe you're actually looking at the real issue here. Which I think is, why did it make so many people so angry that she would want to analyze sexism in video games. Is it because people don't believe there is sexism in video games? Is it because it was a woman who asked the question? Is it because she asked it in the wrong way? And if it's any of these things, why was the reaction SO strong? Why didn't people just say, "You suck and I won't donate or watch your videos" but instead harass her, try to hack into her personal accounts, get her kickstarter shut down, put her face on pornographic images. Why was the reaction so harsh?

If you believe Anita was a scammer, then forget about her. Go back to the original question, do video games have sexist representations of women? If yes, what are those representations, how does it manifest itself, what can be done about it, should anything be done about it? If no, why do you believe there isn't any sexism? Why do you think other people believe that there are sexist elements? Do you think there shouldn't be a push toward more fully developed and less stereotypical female roles in video games? What do you think of games that try and innovate new roles for women? Is that a bad thing? Were things fine as they were?

These are the questions I believe you're avoiding.

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You do realize that tons and tons of people get abused and bullied and teased and even commit suicide because of net bullying and trolling each day right ? These people are innocent and have done nothing wrong. It's really sad and tragic, and I have been bullied online alot. This girl however went looking for trouble on 4chan.

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Could you please provide links to this? I don't believe I've heard anywhere that she went trolling on 4chan. The best I could find after a few minutes of googling was that someone posted her videos onto 4chan and some people think it might have been her posting?

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Because it's been about seven months now. It's been ages and nothing.

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Except that she has been updating her backers on Kickstarter. Are you one of the backers? Are you upset that the money you donated doesn't seem to be resulting in a product? Or if you're not a backer, do you know a backer who is upset? Or are all the people who are upset people who DIDN'T actually donate money?

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No people dislike her for many, many different reasons. The reasons why I dislike her is because her project seems fishy and she's so sexist towards males in her videos. So it's okay to say that a love song if sang by a male makes him a stalker ? Saying that male gamers are 30 years old and living in their male basements ?

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So you have less of a problem with the huuuuge amount of sexism toward her, than the small amount of sexism from Anita toward males? Don't want to put words in your mouth, but just from your posts, this is the conclusion I'm drawing. But if you disagree with her actual comments and beliefs, that's your opinion. And like I said before, I don't agree with everything she says. Some times when you're an activist in whatever industry, you start seeing instances of sexism/racism/etc everywhere. But I would hope that you would be able to differentiate between the legitimate criticisms she has (and many of her points ARE legitimate) and the ones that you don't think are accurate or correct or fair.

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You believe that she hasn't manipulated anybody, but I believe that she has manipulated tons and not just with the sexism in video gaming project.

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Again, I'd like like to point out that I have yet to see an actual kickstarter backer who supported her in the beginning (and not just a troll who donated to kickstater just to get access to the private backers information) who is speaking out about feeling manipulated or tricked into donating money.

And that's it. I'm not doing any more back and forth about Anita. I would just say that I hope people are able to look at the Anita situation and clearly see the real issues of sexism that the whole thing illustrated without resorting to excuses about why or how she deserved what happened.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You know, I am so so tempted to just let this go. Really. Despite whatever you might think maybee, I'm not trying to be "rude" in my responses to you.

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Well I feel very very hurt by what you've said. I've only just started posting on these forums and getting to know the community and the members here and all of a sudden I'm this horrible, ugly person who is disturbing the peace and these forums.

When I said bullying. I didn't not mean the death threats, the bashing game, the stalking and turning her wiki into pornographic pictures of her. I'm sorry if you thought and assumed that, but I didn't.

I believe that there is a huge difference between creepy criminal behaviour and just being a total assface. So when I meant "bullying " I didn't mean those things.

We are derailing somebody else's thread, so if you have any more issues about me please go and PM it. And we can talk about " How I'm destroying everything " there.

Post without motive.

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Originally Posted by maybee

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You know, I am so so tempted to just let this go. Really. Despite whatever you might think maybee, I'm not trying to be "rude" in my responses to you.

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Well I feel very very hurt by what you've said. I've only just started posting on these forums and getting to know the community and the members here and all of a sudden I'm this horrible, ugly person who is disturbing the peace and these forums.

When I said bullying. I didn't not mean the death threats, the bashing game, the stalking and turning her wiki into pornographic pictures of her. I'm sorry if you thought and assumed that, but I didn't.

I believe that there is a huge difference between creepy criminal behaviour and just being a total assface. So when I meant "bullying " I didn't mean those things.

We are derailing somebody else's thread, so if you have any more issues about me please go and PM it. And we can talk about " How I'm destroying everything " there.

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I think you're taking this a little too far. Miriel never said you were horrible, ugly, or destroying everything.

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Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs

I think you're taking this a little too far. Miriel never said you were horrible, ugly, or destroying everything.

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She said what I said about Anita was one of the most disturbing things on this forum when I didn't mean the death threats or the disgusting rape comments.

I'm not OK with the " smack the bitch up " game either; I just said that I wasn't surprised that it occurred since Anita has this magical way of pissing people off so much-( male & female ) and she went looking for more haters in the 4chan board which are infamous for trolling.

It's like if somebody went into a Mario Forum and said that " Mario sucks, and you fail for playing the Mario games " and then came crying to you guys here because they said nasty things they said. I doubt that you'll feel sorry for that person.

Miriel isn't telepathic, maybee.

Why is this here? This belongs in EoEO, not General FF. The article isn't about Final Fantasy, it only refers to the series a couple of times.

It's a series skyblade, it's the intro to sexism IN final fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Freya

It's a series skyblade, it's the intro to sexism IN final fantasy.

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Noooo, it isn't. It's a discussion of the presentation of women in entertainment media, using Final Fantasy as one of several illustrations of the main point.

It doesn't provide a thesis related to the series to unify the upcoming reviews, nor does it discuss anything unique to Final Fantasy. Further reviews will, as they analyze games and characters, but this one doesn't.

If you just want to introduce the upcoming series, I can do that for you: "I am going to write a series of articles about the portrayal of gender roles in Final Fantasy." And I saved on your word count too.

This is an article, and an in depth one, it simply doesn't relate to the series. And as it is a serious discussion of society and culture, it belongs in EoEO.


On topic, have any of you heard of The Hawkeye Initiative?

Skyblade, you are not a moderator so please do not derail this thread about issues of the placement of this thread in the forums. If you have issue with it, please make a private feedback thread or contact a moderator.

Sheesh, what happened to this thread! :roll2 I don't think Miriel and maybee are going to agree, so can we like, agree to disagree?

Anyway... their whole debate is on topic, but I don't really have much of an opinion on this girl, so I won't delve into it, besides, those two have done plenty of it anyway. If I do have a comment about FF sexism, it is definitely X-2. While I quite enjoyed it, there's so many clichés in that game! That mountain spring hidden scene in Chapter 2 was just catering to every boy's fantasies about seeing their main characters in bathing costumes...

Raist knows where his junk goes, kay?

Just because the thread got derailed into non-FF territory doesn't mean it belongs in EoEO.

I'm going to be interested to see which characters Raist thinks are sexist.

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist. Sexism implies not that men and women are different, but that the differences between men and women mean that men are inherently better than women. Or sometimes those "differences" can be imposed (on either sex, but almost exclusively women) in order to oppress.

E.g. The way Fran, Rikku, Tifa, etc, dress are definitely sexist portrayals of girls in the games. But something like warriors always being male and white mages always being female isn't directly sexist. It may be a symptom of it, and it certainly doesn't do anything to better our perceptions of gender, but it makes logical sense (in that it's a reference to traditional roles, women are healers, caregivers, men are fighters, etc, based on a traditional setting. The roles fit the setting). Whereas Fran and her Viera sisters' costumes don't make any sense (they're not practical), overly sexualize the characters (Fran would be a really fantastic character otherwise), and perpetuate the stereotype of the female-as-sex-object. Actually, in a way, some of these female characters that are otherwise strong, self-willed, and intelligent women, by being so overtly sexual objects, imply that "no matter how much you improve your position, try to make yourselves equal to men, prove yourselves to be able to do anything a man can do, you'll never stop being sex objects for men to leer at, molest, assault, etc.

I was prepared for substanceless criticisms of my articles based on knee-jerk emotion and sexism, but even I did not expect someone's sole critique to be forum placement, without even the slightest reference to the underlying argument.

The point of this little soapbox introduction is in the title: I wanted to explain why this issue matters. A lot of people are very dismissive of this issue as unimportant, and I wanted to preemptively rebut such arguments. Additionally, I wanted briefly overview the types of sexism I would be highlighting in the games themselves (appearance, gender roles, and male dependence). Because all of that combined is a decently long article itself, I thought it should be a separate introduction. And it's in General FF because it makes absolutely no sense to place just an intro to an article series in EoEO, of all places. This is, of course, ignoring the obvious question of why you even care.

I have not heard of the Hawkeye Initiative, but that is exactly what I was talking about regarding female appearances and poses in video games. I might have to mention it later.

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Originally Posted by chionos

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist.

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I disagree to an extent, at least in the context of video game characters. Women being limited to cookie-cutter personalities and traditional gender roles when male characters are more often less limited is, by itself, sexist. As I said, one particular character falling into one particular role is not by itself sexist; it's the treatment of women characters as a whole, combined with other factors, that demonstrates an underlying sexism.

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But something like warriors always being male and white mages always being female isn't directly sexist. It may be a symptom of it, and it certainly doesn't do anything to better our perceptions of gender, but it makes logical sense (in that it's a reference to traditional roles, women are healers, caregivers, men are fighters, etc, based on a traditional setting. The roles fit the setting).

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As I said to Dr. rydrum, just because a video game character is an accurate portrayal of real-life sexism does not make the video game character beyond critique. The gender roles that these characters perpetuate are themselves sexist. Especially when, as said above, male characters have never been similarly limited to just the fighters.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

I was prepared for substanceless criticisms of my articles based on knee-jerk emotion and sexism, but even I did not expect someone's sole critique to be forum placement, without even the slightest reference to the underlying argument.

The point of this little soapbox introduction is in the title: I wanted to explain why this issue matters. A lot of people are very dismissive of this issue as unimportant, and I wanted to preemptively rebut such arguments. Additionally, I wanted briefly overview the types of sexism I would be highlighting in the games themselves (appearance, gender roles, and male dependence). Because all of that combined is a decently long article itself, I thought it should be a separate introduction. And it's in General FF because it makes absolutely no sense to place just an intro to an article series in EoEO, of all places. This is, of course, ignoring the obvious question of why you even care.

I have not heard of the Hawkeye Initiative, but that is exactly what I was talking about regarding female appearances and poses in video games. I might have to mention it later.

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To be honest I didn't even consider placement of the thread. It's fine where it is. I mean, come on, it's to do with Final Fantasy at the end of the day! :)

My apologies for my statements.

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I'm going to be interested to see which characters Raist thinks are sexist.

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist. Sexism implies not that men and women are different, but that the differences between men and women mean that men are inherently better than women. Or sometimes those "differences" can be imposed (on either sex, but almost exclusively women) in order to oppress.

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

sex·ism
[sek-siz-uh m]

noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

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It seems it's both, actually.

Yeah, sexism can refer to stereotypical gender roles even if they don't place one sex above the other. It's a common misconception that sexism only refers to discrimination based on sex.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

My apologies for my statements.

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I'm going to be interested to see which characters Raist thinks are sexist.

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist. Sexism implies not that men and women are different, but that the differences between men and women mean that men are inherently better than women. Or sometimes those "differences" can be imposed (on either sex, but almost exclusively women) in order to oppress.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

sex·ism
[sek-siz-uh m]

noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

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It seems it's both, actually.

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Denotatively, conceded.

The connotation of "attitudes or behavior" is that the behavior and attitudes are detrimental to the genders.

The point wasn't that sexism doesn't involve stereotypes, but that not all stereotypes (even sexual stereotypes) are sexist. Or perhaps I'm saying, not all stereotypes should be considered sexist.

Recognizing traditional gender roles is not bad. Using those stereotypes to manipulate, oppress, or devalue people is bad. Forcing women to be domestic goddesses and not letting them work outside the home is bad. Recognizing that, generally, women are better than men at running a house (yes in large part because they were raised that way) because they multitask better, have better color recognition for decorating, etc., is not.

to be better on topic:
I hate when games/movies/literature force a female character into a role that doesn't make sense for the character just for the sake of being anti-sexist. I don't think that gets us anywhere.

So they're making the next Final Fantasy and they've got a White Mage character they want to use. They're sitting around throwing ideas back and forth. Someone presents a female design for that character, and everyone's like "No, no, can't be a girl, that would be SEXIST," even though the design fits, and the character's background makes sense, etc., etc. The point isn't to avoid reverse sexism, because sexism is bad, and getting rid of it is worth a little backlash. But blindly avoiding the appearance traditional gender roles doesn't do anything to help remove sexism from our culture. Strong (not physically strong, but fitting, apt) female characters in various roles that show the character as a "person" without regard to anything else is the ideal.

We don't want to force genders into roles that are opposite to traditional roles any more than we want to force them into the traditional roles. They're equally sexist.

The point is every character (and by extension every person) being open to every potential, and taking on roles based on choice, not societal pressure.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

I was prepared for substanceless criticisms of my articles based on knee-jerk emotion and sexism, but even I did not expect someone's sole critique to be forum placement, without even the slightest reference to the underlying argument.

The point of this little soapbox introduction is in the title: I wanted to explain why this issue matters. A lot of people are very dismissive of this issue as unimportant, and I wanted to preemptively rebut such arguments. Additionally, I wanted briefly overview the types of sexism I would be highlighting in the games themselves (appearance, gender roles, and male dependence). Because all of that combined is a decently long article itself, I thought it should be a separate introduction. And it's in General FF because it makes absolutely no sense to place just an intro to an article series in EoEO, of all places. This is, of course, ignoring the obvious question of why you even care.

I have not heard of the Hawkeye Initiative, but that is exactly what I was talking about regarding female appearances and poses in video games. I might have to mention it later.

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Originally Posted by chionos

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist.

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I disagree to an extent, at least in the context of video game characters. Women being limited to cookie-cutter personalities and traditional gender roles when male characters are more often less limited is, by itself, sexist. As I said, one particular character falling into one particular role is not by itself sexist; it's the treatment of women characters as a whole, combined with other factors, that demonstrates an underlying sexism.

Quote:

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But something like warriors always being male and white mages always being female isn't directly sexist. It may be a symptom of it, and it certainly doesn't do anything to better our perceptions of gender, but it makes logical sense (in that it's a reference to traditional roles, women are healers, caregivers, men are fighters, etc, based on a traditional setting. The roles fit the setting).

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As I said to Dr. rydrum, just because a video game character is an accurate portrayal of real-life sexism does not make the video game character beyond critique. The gender roles that these characters perpetuate are themselves sexist. Especially when, as said above, male characters have never been similarly limited to just the fighters.

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Raist, this isn't the thread for this type of discussion. Could a mod please move this to the more appropriate thread? Cheers.

Seriousness aside, I always find it weird that people have such a hard time creating female characters. Male writers may have some reason for this, as they may not be able to identify or relate to a woman's perspective and so will find it more difficult to create genuine or realistic motives and such, but I've noticed that even female writers make the same lame-arse female archetypes!

I think the problem is with considering what's appropriate for that gender. When designing a character, they'll think up a backstory, a family, friends, relations, motives, important events and all that, but will always make it appropriate for the gender. So male characters very rarely have "feminine" traits and motivations (e.g. responding in a panicked fashion to a stressful scenario; being driven by their love for their children etc.), and female characters very rarely have "masculine" traits and motivations (e.g. being violent; being driven simply by their desire to cause pain). It's much more noticeable for the latter, I find, as women have far fewer stereotypes than men, so the same bloody characters will pop up all the time, no matter the genre of film/game/book!

I've never really had a problem with the way Tifa dresses (expect when I was about eight because it was like " ohh mummy that girl looks nawughty " ! )

But females really should have a right to dress the way that they choose, even if it's bit on the " showy " side because females really should have a freedom to dress the way that they want to dress without any rules or barriers. Nobody says to a man that they can't walk around topless. If the man wants to walk around topless, he can- and it should be the same with female and their clothing.

When it comes to created characters like Tifa I assume that this the way that Tifa wants to dress. She wants to dress in a bra-like top showing off her ''cupcakes " and a short dress, like how Aeris wants to dress in a long pink dress cut near the bottom to show off her legs.

Though characters and female characters really should have different outfits when it comes to a colder stage or a winter level in games. Men too. You can't tell me that Tifa survived the Northern crater area and I doubt that Cloud would of lived in his clothes as well.

These characters are usually designed by males but sometimes the showy outfits are made and enjoyed by females too. The DLC outfits for Serah were all designed by a young female Japanese girl.

But then there is moments that draw the line for me as well. In Type-O Square-Enix made it possible for you to perv at the female character's underwear and there's even a scene where you can perv at the female teacher getting un-dressed. That's going too far. Oh and the Dissidia quotes telling you to perv at Dark Cloud's tits.

Really SE ? :eep:

Sweet, when does Type-0 come out? ;)

I wish all games allowed for characters to change clothes, to be honest. Or at least gave them different designs dependent upon the environment they're in. I don't care about the sexual equality of it, mind, I just think it'd be cool to have the characters reflecting the areas of the game. :D

I found a very interesting read while browsing the internet and it made me think of your article.

Ana Mardoll's Ramblings: Deconstruction: FF7 and Tropes About Women

Good read, by the way. I'm looking forward to more from you!

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Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland

Sweet, when does Type-0 come out? ;)

I wish all games allowed for characters to change clothes, to be honest. Or at least gave them different designs dependent upon the environment they're in. I don't care about the sexual equality of it, mind, I just think it'd be cool to have the characters reflecting the areas of the game. :D

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Oh you cannot tell how much maybee hit the nail on the head. There's so many cold areas in the games, and literally hardly anyone in game are capable of "surviving" in those conditions. VII even touched upon it when you had to climb that cliff or something and you had to regulate Cloud's temperature by shaking. All of that could have been avoided if he just put some bloody clothes on! Now, I know SE likes keeping the character designs but I'm sure the fanbase would actually approve of clothes changes when the situation is appropriate.

What I jokingly do is when I enter a cold area in a game, I only choose characters that can survive. In XII in the Paramina Rift, I only used Balthier and Penelo. And even then they were both stretching it. In X during Mt Gagazet, I only allowed myself Lulu, Auron and Kimahri. Everyone else is too Besaid fashion, and forget about Rikku. I like imposing these fun little challenges because it makes the game at least somewhat realistic. If only SE could do the same.

I admit this has strayed slightly from Sexism to Winter Fashion :roll2

Imagine being able to make Vaan put on a jumper. That would improve XII so much.

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Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland

Imagine being able to make Vaan put on a jumper. That would improve XII so much.

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http://i.imgur.com/qUds6.jpg

You mean those HIDEOUS Abdominals. What grave error did XII developers do?

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One of the issues with the Damsel in Distress trope isn't that it's only confined to the obvious stuff where your Player Character's helpless girlfriend has been kidnapped by Satan and will be gratuitously raped every time you have to restart a level. Yes, those games represent a problem.

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Huuuuh ? What game is this ? Huh ?

Ghosts n Goblins the R 18 version ? :eyebrow:

i don't get this part of the article.... no game is like this.

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Like Aeris, she faces the threat of rape at Don's Mansion

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This scene is optional and what about Cloud ? Cloud can be picked by the Don as well.

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So while Cloud is a male character threatened with rape, he is only threatened with rape when he pretends to be a female character. Which makes the incident difficult to classify.

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He's still threatened with rape. Cross-dressing or not. The man had " Ants in his pants and he was looking for some romance ". :|

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Shera then submitted to an abusive relationship with Cid out of guilt for "ruining" his dreams.
Breakdown: Victim of an Abusive Relationship (with a Playable Character!).

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Okay. There is a huge difference between holding a grudge and a abusive relationship. Cid never hit, smacked or slapped or even mentally abused her. He was just really frustrated with her; and judging how he gave up his own dreams to save her life, I doubt that he ever would harm Shera.

I do have to admit that their relationship does make me feel uncomfortable though.

...You know, I'm rather confident Raistlin here can write a better article then that. :p

As a scientist- can people stop using gender like it means sex?

You have to define something before you argue about it,if you are using words but defining them differently than you'll be debating past each other. If someone says "I am using WORD-A to mean X." Then you saying, but it really means Y is useless, it doesn't address whatever point they were making.

For instance earlier in the thread someone defined bullying sort of narrowly (to exclude death threats etc). And instead of address the point, someone else quoted the "true" definition of bullying. All that does is require the first person to go back and use a different word.

I think "sexism" needs to be operationally defined (and agreed upon) before you can debate about it.

Arguments of semantics usually bring things to a screeching halt, though. Can't spend all day defining every term you use because then you end up in the 'depends on what your definition of "is" is' situation. :p

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Arguments of semantics usually bring things to a screeching halt, though. Can't spend all day defining every term you use because then you end up in the 'depends on what your definition of "is" is' situation. :p

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Even though I'm a wordophile, and agree in principle with what rydrum is saying, I have to agree with the gangsta here. In large part because a word's denotation is only the start of what a word really means, and the larger part of the meaning is often very relative. Thus, operationally defining something to the agreement of both sides of an argument is impossible. At least in contexts like this one.

In fact, a large portion of what Raist is doing here (or will be doing) [is] defining sexism (its connotation), by discussing it in a particular context. Our operational definitions develop through conversations and arguments that we have, not by fruitlessly arguing definitions before we even begin.


It's roots deep.

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Originally Posted by chionos

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Arguments of semantics usually bring things to a screeching halt, though. Can't spend all day defining every term you use because then you end up in the 'depends on what your definition of "is" is' situation. :p

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Even though I'm a wordophile, and agree in principle with what rydrum is saying, I have to agree with the gangsta here. In large part because a word's denotation is only the start of what a word really means, and the larger part of the meaning is often very relative. Thus, operationally defining something to the agreement of both sides of an argument is impossible. At least in contexts like this one.

In fact, a large portion of what Raist is doing here (or will be doing) [is] defining sexism (its connotation), by discussing it in a particular context. Our operational definitions develop through conversations and arguments that we have, not by fruitlessly arguing definitions before we even begin.

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You and Del missed the point of what I was saying. You have to accept how other people are using it/operationally defining it. This is what is mean by "agreeing".

You don't have to truly decide on its absolute definition. If one person says- sexism as defined by ____ is not present in game A. Then arguing how that is the wrong definition of sexism is different then arguing if it exists in the game.

Every time you make a claim about something, you have to provide evidence to support it- and in order to do so you have to operationally define what it is. That isn't decided as you go along, through conversations. Read any quality peer reviewed journal article. What the authors do is define exactly what they mean. This idea that both sides have to definitively agree was not made by me.

So did you not like the article then?

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

So did you not like the article then?

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No, I think Raistlin had the right idea:

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I want to highlight two other types of sexism to you that are readily apparent in video games, and the Final Fantasy series in particular: the overwhelming use of stereotypical gender roles for female characters, and the common dependence that female characters have on more central, male characters to their relevance in the game.

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It sounds like he is going to highlight and "define" sexism as typical gender roles & male dependence.

I'm generally a big definitions guy, and think that many disagreements on some controversial issues are fairly useless without defining the terms -- especially those that provoke an emotional reaction and have a heavily negative connotation. But I did not really want to wade into a debate about the definition of "sexism," so instead focused on certain applications of that term that I felt would be widely accepted -- that not only treat women differently, but place women as subservient to men, or at least drastically limit the variation of personalities and roles as compared to men. Even if you limit the definition of "sexism" to only include that which discriminates against one sex, then everything in my article should fit. In hindsight, perhaps that's something I should have mentioned in the intro.

As a newb I was pretty scared to read this thread, cause yeah, I be feminist, I went to school for Gender Studies, what? I am also a woman who loves gaming. So yeah, this is super interesting to me.

So far, so good I think. I am excited for the articles, and discussion. My only comment is that by my understanding the Bechdel Test is for determining sexism in an industry mainly, not a movie or game. It shows whether the game can even remotely be considered women centered, and points out how women's stories are not told as often as men's typically are. A game or movie can fail the Bechdel Test and still not be sexist in my opinion.

Anyway, I gotta say, I am a big Anita Sarkeesian fan. And she has been doing her pop culture critiques for a while now, so I am fairly sure that she will keep making videos. And yeah, how dare she talk about how guys harassed and threatened her, women are supposed to keep their mouths shut, right?

If this all makes you hate me now, I will be sad.

I don't hate the woman, I just don't like how she went about it is all.

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Originally Posted by Gu-fu-fu

A game or movie can fail the Bechdel Test and still not be sexist in my opinion.

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I agree with this. It's one factor to consider among others, and as you said is most useful in looking at trends across an entire industry. I only mentioned it as it is somewhat related to a broader application of sexism that I introduced and will be using to analyze the Final Fantasy series: the frequent dependence of female characters on male characters for relevance.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

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Originally Posted by Gu-fu-fu

A game or movie can fail the Bechdel Test and still not be sexist in my opinion.

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I agree with this. It's one factor to consider among others, and as you said is most useful in looking at trends across an entire industry. I only mentioned it as it is somewhat related to a broader application of sexism that I introduced and will be using to analyze the Final Fantasy series: the frequent dependence of female characters on male characters for relevance.

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how come no one has come up with a more universal test (other than the "gut" test)?

Probably because the woman who created the Bechdel Test is too busy gossiping and getting her nails done to come up with a new one.

(SPOILER)See what I did there? :p