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EDIT: Whoops. Meant to put in General Gaming. xD
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EDIT: Whoops. Meant to put in General Gaming. xD
You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
I call Liam Neeson.
NO YOU CAN'T BE LIAM NEESON.
Your just mad because you didn't think of it first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
I am Argyle, the magnificent bastard.
I'M CASS I CALL HER
I'd totally be Boone and me and Cass can go off and kill Caesar and his cronies together.
Do it, please! :love:
I call Arcade! I shoot lasers and snark.
EDIT: I should get an Arcade set.
bawwwwww I want a cass set but I'm keeping this one for atleast a month
We'll make it New Vegas month.
I wanna be ED-E. Can I please?
Sure. We need to send you to the Followers of the Apocalypse to be reprogrammed.
If it's New Vegas companions then there is no limit to how much smurfing Raul I want to be because Raul is the best.
If it's all Fallouts, Tenpenny. :cool:
It says "Fallout cast," not "New Vegas cast."
I said "New Vegas companions" not "New Vegas cast" if you want to be pedantic about it Cass :colbert:
whatever nerd, pick whoever you want to be!
I pick Dogmeat.
Clearly I need to be a ghoul. People who have heard me when I've lost my voice say the words "smooth skin" know why.
The Master. We must be one race. Race! Race! There must be unity. Unity! Unity!
No, smurfin', idea.
Alternatively I want to be Vault Boy.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...-vault-boy.jpg
Pike for Vault Boy '13
YES this is gonna be my next avatar/sig set, somedayQuote:
Originally Posted by Pantz
DAMN YOU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
Hell yes. Vivi and I would be badasses at survival.
Except he'd hear me complaining about the desert heat a lot.
We won't go quietly, the Legion can count on that.
LONG LIVE THE NCR
I've never understood the love for the NCR. I mean look, in a "The Democrats are trout but I vote for them because the Republicans are even worse" kind of way when you compare them to the Legion then fair enough, but active love for them? What. Why? They're a bit crap. They're boring. The NCR is America 2.0 and it's not as if America 1.0 went particularly well in the Fallout universe is it? House and independent both are better than NCR imho. Caesar's Legion might've been too if they'd had enough development time and if they'd made Caesar more like Joshua god damn Graham.
House is a tyrant. Independent Vegas is too unstable. Caesar's a prick. There.
Try again. ;) I want to know why the NCR are good, not why the others are trout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Also, House is no less of a tyrant than the corrupt-as-smurf NCR, and independent Vegas is not unstable if you don't smurf up and take out the undesirables like the Fiends and Powder Gangers.
There's your reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
AMERICA smurf YEAH
I fight for the White Glove Society.
NCR has resources, a vision, and logistics. NCR supports equality of the sexes Caesar does not, has the power and resources Independent Vegas does not (in addition to an actual established government), and Mr. House has little will to assist those outside The Strip.
Real life America is bad enough, Fallout America is a whole 'nother level of awful though.
Caesar does actually value men and women equally, he just believes they have different roles. He thinks the human race needs repopulating and only women can do this, and that's why only men can fight. Makes sense in a way. Equality is nice in a perfect society but it aint that.
I don't know what the hell game you played but Independent Vegas has huge amounts of power - the Upgraded Securitrons. That's how the battle of the Hoover Dam was won - because they were better than the NCR and Legion by a long way.
Also no, and I don't get why House not wanting to take over all of America like the NCR is a bad thing.
Come on Laddy you're just throwing crap at the sides that aren't the NCR instead of applying logic and reasoning to the situation. WHAT WOULD JOSH SAWYER THINK
Also anyone that thinks the NCR are good should play Return to Sender. Or, you know, read this. HURRAY FOR THE GENOCIDAL MASSACRE OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN GO NCR
And don't give me the "uhhh legion did worse at nipton!" spiel because I don't care. You should justify why the NCR are good as opposed to why the Legion are bad but nobody seems able to do that. Best of a bad bunch doesn't cut it. You speak to the neutral people of the Mojave, the actual desert folk. They don't want the smurfing NCR there and for good reason. They're murdering scum.
He would think that a black-and-white answer to this question would miss the point of the game's message
Well it's the answer you keep giving, sunshine. :colbert:
NCR are smurfing war criminals. And you know what? That's why they're worse than the Legion. The Legion aren't self-righteous moralists who claim to be some enlightened super society. They're not hypocrites. :doublecolbert:
Since I am the only hyper-competent person in the Fallout universe, and Independent playstyle would most likely save the entire world, repopulate the Earth, remove all harmful radiation, provide clean drinking water free to all and enact global peace.
And then next week I might go shopping, or something.
Nope, sorry. NCR, as bad as they are, don't engage in genocide and slavery as a policy.
It's true that the NCR are fighting Caesar for their own personal gain - they want to be the ones in power and Caesar is creeping up on that and throwing everything into whack. But the NCR also represents the miniscule speck of order that is established in the chaos that is New Vegas and the Mojave Desert. It's not a reign of tyrrany, it's them trying to save a bit of humanity that goes with organized government in the aftermath of nuclear war. In doing so, they make the citizen's lives better.
and that's all I wanted!Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
ps: bitter springs was totally genocide.
Edit: They make the citizen's lives better by subjecting them to endless wars and campaigns? The NCR is stretched to breaking point domestically because of their jaunt into the Mojave, the people are suffering while the government fights in some far off desert... heh hello Iraq war allegory :smug: And as for making the people's lives better... the people don't smurfing want the NCR there. Why do you think they all resist the NCR? The Khans, The Kings, The Followers of the Apocalypse, The Brotherhood of Steel, The Families... they all want the NCR to piss off and for good reason. You talk to random civilians in Goodsprings, Primm or Freeside and they'll tell you they don't want that trout.
The entire premise of New Vegas was pretty much that the NCR are not a bastion of order, desperately seeking to restore order to these poor wastes. They are simply an expanding empire that sometimes may or may not improve the lives of the people they conquer.
Yes, but not a regular occurence either
Exactly! Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland
Anyone who says "GO NCR!" like some sort of derranged cheerleader (oh and by the way Huxley, to pre-empt, I know you only support the NCR because of you had a crush on Tandi when you were a lad. DON'T DENY IT) did not deserve to play a game as wonderful as New Vegas. :colbert:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticTry again. ;) I want to know why the NCR are good, not why the others are trout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Also, House is no less of a tyrant than the corrupt-as-smurf NCR, and independent Vegas is not unstable if you don't smurf up and take out the undesirables like the Fiends and Powder Gangers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychoticand that's all I wanted!Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
ps: bitter springs was totally genocide.
Edit: They make the citizen's lives better by subjecting them to endless wars and campaigns? The NCR is stretched to breaking point domestically because of their jaunt into the Mojave, the people are suffering while the government fights in some far off desert... heh hello Iraq war allegory :smug: And as for making the people's lives better... the people don't smurfing want the NCR there. Why do you think they all resist the NCR? The Khans, The Kings, The Followers of the Apocalypse, The Brotherhood of Steel, The Families... they all want the NCR to piss off and for good reason. You talk to random civilians in Goodsprings, Primm or Freeside and they'll tell you they don't want that trout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticExactly! Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland
Anyone who says "GO NCR!" like some sort of derranged cheerleader (oh and by the way Huxley, to pre-empt, I know you only support the NCR because of you had a crush on Tandi when you were a lad. DON'T DENY IT) did not deserve to play a game as wonderful as New Vegas. :colbert:
(SPOILER)Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
I support the NCR because in the hellhole that is the Wasteland a society whose worst traits are corruption and overextension, and a single massacre which everyone thinks was bulltrout and is deeply ashamed of, AND where you're freely allowed to say "That's some bulltrout right there" "What are we doing in the Mojave in the first place", and "President Kimball is an idiot" is a pretty goddamn nice society. Meanwhile Nipton, Nelson, the million other places the Legion has massacred. Also, you know what the NCR did with Bitter Springs after taking it? They turned it into a refugee camp and are doing their best to keep alive all the people who are fleeing Caesar's Legion. On which note, despite people in the Mojave grumbling when the NCR moves in, they don't embark en masse in an exodus to escape them. Funny thing. Are the NCR perfect? smurf no. Are they the best option? smurf yes.
But oooh no apparently a bit of hypocrisy is worse than being a cultlike, rigidly hierarchical empire built solely on the backs of slave labor. A society where Bitter Springs would be condemned because some of the Khans survived, where women are treated somewhere between slaves and cattle, where winning a fight justifies crucifying your enemies. I appreciate that men and women might as a matter of necessity have different roles but on the other hand the NCR (Or Followers of the Apocalypse, BoS, Khans, Families, or various tribes) have not needed to institutionalize rape-slavery to survive. So um yeah that's sort of contravened by the facts pretty thoroughly :shobon:
Oh as for hypocrisy, at least the NCR don't propagandize medicine as bad and then go right ahead and use it in secret to save their leader!
I keep seeing NCR and thinking that you people are talking about me. :(
Why can nobody say anything nice about the NCR without having to talk trout about the Legion? Particularly when they're only two of four choices. :greenie: The game is not about NCR v Legion. I don't get why you people can't seem to grasp that. It's not black and white. I don't choose either because they're both abysmal. It's the same choice: Join us or die.
Seeing as you all insist on bringing it back down to that level, I'm game. You know what? Yeah. Yeah, I'd rather be stabbed in the front by the Legion than in the back by the NCR. Would genuinely rather live under the Legion than NCR. Citizens in Legion controlled areas (yeah they don't enslave everyone like the NCR propaganda machine claims, who knew?) are actually much better off than the citizens of the NCR. Actual law and order is maintained - you wouldn't catch the likes of the Fiends existing on Legion territory. I mean hey, seeing as we're all so keen on "NCR are bad but not as bad as the Legion!" as our crutch, well, live by the sword, die by the sword: As bad as the Legion may be, I think we can all agree the Fiends are a whole 'nother level. The trout that happens to NCR citizens at the Fiends' hands doesn't happen in the Legion controlled lands. Oh, and they use resources of those they conquer to fuel their war effort rather than making the folks back home suffer. I mean hey, bad, but not as bad, right...?
As for Bitter Springs, oh no, the poor innocent NCR feel oh-so bad about the massacre. Well I guess that makes it okay to invade somebody else's land, smash the smurf out of them when they resist and then murder retreating women and children. Maybe your really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. (WESLEY MOORE MOTHERsmurfER YEEHAW) Mr. Caesar feels bad about slavery and that'll absolve him of that too.
Oh, and as for refugee camp, ho ho ho. I think not. As you may remember, the Khans are allied with Caesar's Legion. If you convince them to break this alliance and team up with the NCR, and you help NCR win, let's find out what happens to them.welp thanks for that NCR you clearly feel very guilty about your genocide.Quote:
After the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, the Great Khans returned for a time to Red Rock Canyon. The NCR's pressing need to expand proved greater than its promise of amnesty, and before long the government decided the Khans had to go. The surviving Great Khans were relocated to an isolated, barren reservation, well north of NCR trade routes
But hey the Khans deserve it, right? The NCR aren't quite done there, oh no. They also drive the Followers out, they abandon Primm to get smurfed over if you asked them to help it (and the NCR lose, of course ;)), try to exterminate the Kings and their taxation forces people in Goodsprings out of their homes.
also lmao sarah "I knew you'd jump in and save us" xD That's what the people of Primm said to the NCR when they were too weak to fight their own battles. I am the Courier and I will save you all. No Gods, No Masters, smurf the NCR, smurf the Legion.
You make some good points, Psy, but if you will please recall what the NCR has for their emblem?
two
headed
mothersmurfing
BEAR
...yes but... but you see... I mean when you... notwithstanding... if you take it in isolation you could... I mean... well...
Well that's me defeated. O, I die, Horatio.
Independent is for edgy teenagers who are still angry that their parents made them go to church as a kid :greenie:
And for people who actually want to improve the world and the lives of the citizens therein.
Oh god you all are so goddamn WRONG. We need a new thread for this so MILF and I can school you on proper New Vegas ideological discussion.
School me? What are you talking about? I've consistently destroyed all of NCR fanboys in this thread - you included - and you just keep repeating the same weak points over and over again. Maybe you're going for the NCR strategy of superiority of numbers hoping that'll see your weak ideology to victory. Well, not in my General Gaming Mojave, champ. :aimkiss:Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
I'm not even going to acknowledge your new thread. I just read it and you straight up said "The NCR provide safety, security and freedom from genocide" and it's like... really? Really? Get out of here xD You're not saying any of those things with a straight face. That is a troll and I'm not going to bother rebutting it. That is not an actual thing that you or anyone with an IQ over 80 who has played this game thinks.
Face it, Psychotic. You're just one of those guys that just entered High School Government and decided to pick the most outlandish and irredeemable political system just so when sane-minded people object to your outrageous "stance", you can up and call them hypocrites living in a hopelessly and irreparably flawed society, making yourself feel more important. :colbert:
And you know what? I can say this as a citizen in the NCR and not be crucified. Hell, I can personally tell Kimball to suck it and not have anyone really bat an eye. NCR has committed some terrible atrocities, many unforgivable. But at the very least, they are the exception and not the rule. As power-hungry and imperialist as they are, NCR is a society that can have its corrupt leaders more or less easily be voted out off office if people take notice and object. Which they do. Caesar's Legion may not be hypocritical, but if that's really something you feel should determine whether or not to support a government in such an extreme and inhospitable environment, then I shiver to think what one would tolerate from the government. Oh wait.
NCR is flawed. Very much so, no one is arguing that. NCR has ulterior motives, no one is arguing that either. What we are arguing is that attempting to find a perfect society in the ashes of an empire that in itself was imperfect is foolish. NCR, with all of its problems, still has a portion of the population who supports liberty, freedom, and peace, and does their best to uphold those as ideals. And while the NCR does things to (rightfully) piss people off, the difference is in the NCR you, as a citizen, can do something about it.
Every crime committed by NCR is something could either be avoided or punished by the population. In the end, that's what democracy is. Caesar's Legion is not like that. You shut up and bend over for Caesar, o r you're punished. There is an established social order that is never, ever infringed upon. The Legion is a society of absolutism and stagnancy. That is oppression.
It's a shame that there isn't a faction in Fallout that is just a bunch of sentient floppy penises walking about, because that's what all of you are. Dear me this thread is dire. xD
Ad hominem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
Incorrect. Legion forces crucify NCR citizens all the time.Quote:
And you know what? I can say this as a citizen in the NCR and not be crucified.
Why don't you try murdering him and see if anyone bats an eye? I mean, there may be no dogpiling but there'll be a smurf ton of face shooting.Quote:
Hell, I can personally tell Kimball to suck it and not have anyone really bat an eye.
Yup.Quote:
NCR has committed some terrible atrocities, many unforgivable.
Yes.Quote:
As power-hungry and imperialist as they are, NCR is a society that can have its corrupt leaders
Correct!Quote:
Caesar's Legion may not be hypocritical
They are indeed terrible, well spoken Laddy.Quote:
NCR is flawed. Very much so, no one is arguing that. NCR has ulterior motives, no one is arguing that either.
Well, it kind of is. Legion citizens suffer a smurfton less crime. In fact, NONE AT ALL! What an outcome!Quote:
Every crime committed by NCR is something could either be avoided or punished by the population. In the end, that's what democracy is. Caesar's Legion is not like that.
So, uh... let's say there's a group of people called the Fate Barns. And they don't want to have the NCR on their land. So they have a choice of shutting up and bending over to the NCR, or not doing so. And let's say they do not do so... they don't get punished.... WITH A MASSAAAAAACRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEE?Quote:
You shut up and bend over for Caesar, o r you're punished. There is an established social order that is never, ever infringed upon.
Well given the rate at which it's growing it's hardly stagnant... :tongue:Quote:
The Legion is a society of absolutism and stagnancy. That is oppression.
Joshua Sawyer:
What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures.
He says that when the Legion dominates NCR, it will be akin to the rise of the Roman Empire following the republic. The Legion will become, if not a "peace" force, a domestic army instead of a roving war band, and the NCR's corruption will be swept away along with the government.
Arcade isn't exaggerating when he suggests that Caesar views the Colorado River as his Rubicon. e: It's true that Caesar doesn't say anything explicitly about the role of women, but Caesar's view of women is different from most of the legionaries. As I wrote above, the Legion is at war, and he views the use of women for military purposes as a bad strategic choice when he could be using them to create more legionaries.
In Caesar's view, NCR's problems have to do with the corruption of its government and what he sees as inherent flaws in NCR's republican system. All of the strategies he uses to assemble the Legion and march on NCR are means to an end, not social end goals themselves.
Caesar sees NCR as Rome and his role in reforming it as Julius Caesar's role in reforming the republic (by turning it into a dictatorship). When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and returned to Rome, his legion didn't rape and enslave their way through the city. However, rape and enslavement were common in outer territories of the Roman Empire and were regularly used as tools of intimidation and labor.
oh and
The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control.
While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.
The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).
In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).
for good measure
In Caesar's mind, this California Empire would have the infrastructure, knowledge, technology, and some culture from the NCR with the discipline, integrity, efficiency, and security of the Legion.
but no
good vs evil
and FREEEEEEDOM!!!! (hint: Freedom to get smurfing murdered by Fiends/Raiders/Powder Gangers/Corrupt NCR Troops/Feral Ghouls/Super Mutants and all the other things the NCR are too weak to deal with)
because democracy is way more important than living in peace and stability. AMURRRRCA says so. Hell let's ask what the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq think about that! i mean hey ho I may live in a war torn trouthole and poverty and in constant fear of my life, but on the plus side I can call the our troutty leaders who got me into this troutty situation dorks! AHHRRRRRRRR HAAAAAAAAA ANERRRRRICAAAA COME ON AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERsmurfING DAY YEAH
and all that
NOW WRITE ABOUT MR HOUSE JEEZ LOUISE
this thread is more heated than 95% of the discussion in EoEO
I'm not sure how to respond
I have to have something to do when there's no mafia games on!
Do you think I'd be good at this "EoEO" game of which you speak?
Quote:
but no
Quote:
good vs evil
No one ever said this was a discussion of good and evil. really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking..
Wait...what? Too weak for FIENDS? Which faction's endings causes the single greatest blow to The Fiends? That's right, NCR. :colbert: Powder Gangers? NCR makes short work of them. What threats has the Legion been able to keep at bay?Quote:
and FREEEEEEDOM!!!! (hint: Freedom to get smurfing murdered by Fiends/Raiders/Powder Gangers/Corrupt NCR Troops/Feral Ghouls/Super Mutants and all the other things the NCR are too weak to deal with)
What faction's ending causes the Followers of the Apocalypse, arguably the only "good" faction in the game to be either totally displaced or even downright destroyed? Caesar's Legion.
Great Khans? Caesar smurfs them over. The Kings? Demolished. Novac? Almost totally destroyed. Oh wait, NCR had one tragic massacre that almost no one in the NCR endorses and it's an imperialist hellhole. Caesar's Legion does this as a policy rather than a tragedy and it's acceptable? What sort of argument is that? Who's the hypocrite here?
Afghanistan is under the American banner? Iraq is an American colony? Despite appearances to the contrary, no. No one is endorsing the same policy here, and your insistence that "NCR SHOULD BE LIKE AMERIKAH" is a massive really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. argument. America became the same way it was because the population was easily led by those who had no interest with them. While such is a risk of democracy, it is not inevitable and is reversible.Quote:
because democracy is way more important than living in peace and stability. AMURRRRCA says so. Hell let's ask what the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq think about that! i mean hey ho I may live in a war torn trouthole and poverty and in constant fear of my life, but on the plus side I can call the our troutty leaders who got me into this troutty situation dorks! AHHRRRRRRRR HAAAAAAAAA ANERRRRRICAAAA COME ON AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERsmurfING DAY YEAH
The thing is, NCR does provide safety and security for its citizens. ALL OF ITS CITIZENS. There are no slaves, no people punished for speaking out. Caesar's Legion cannot provide safety for its citizens because it endorses the mistreatment and subjugation of a large portion of its citizens. Whatever security the NCR somehow fails to provide, it makes up for by not establishing a certain portion of the population as objects.
Also, if the Legion was so capable of performing better than NCR militarily, why haven't they been able to expand in their territory until a massive political paradigm shift is specifically engineered in their favor?
You did! Repeatedly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Laddy
Uh, yes, hence why they exist.Quote:
Wait...what? Too weak for FIENDS?
No xD If all Fiend leaders live, ie, if the Courier wasn't around:Quote:
Which faction's endings causes the single greatest blow to The Fiends? That's right, NCR. :colbert:
Never weakened by NCR, the Fiends staged an attack against Camp McCarran during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. Though NCR repulsed the Fiends, they suffered heavy losses in the process
The Fiends attacked Camp McCarran during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam and suffered heavy losses. Caesar, unimpressed with their performance and their dependence on chems, had them exterminated
lol.If the Courier helps.Quote:
Powder Gangers? NCR makes short work of them.
87 of them if you want to be precise.Quote:
What threats has the Legion been able to keep at bay?
Uh... what are you talking aboutQuote:
What faction's ending causes the Followers of the Apocalypse, arguably the only "good" faction in the game to be either totally displaced or even downright destroyed? Caesar's Legion.
After the NCR's victory at the dam, the Followers of the Apocalypse were pushed out of Old Mormon Fort during its occupation by NCR forces. NCR further "encouraged" them to leave Outer Vegas entirely, and the Followers had no choice but to comply
And what happens to all of those groups under NCR (other than Novac as it's an NCR town an doesn't count anyway!) They get smurfed over too, unless the Courier intervenes. The difference is that's what Caesar sets out to do. He never says "I am not going to kill people", he just goes and does it. The NCR plead democracy or raising people up or some crap and murder them anyway. They're both identical, only one at least has the balls to admit what he's doing. Also... never... once claimed that the Legion were anything but a bunch of assholes, indeed I've repeatedly stated "smurf the Legion" so I don't know who is the hypocrite to which you refer. :greenie:Quote:
Great Khans? Caesar smurfs them over. The Kings? Demolished. Novac? Almost totally destroyed. Oh wait, NCR had one tragic massacre that almost no one in the NCR endorses and it's an imperialist hellhole. Caesar's Legion does this as a policy rather than a tragedy and it's acceptable? What sort of argument is that? Who's the hypocrite here?
The game's lead developer straight up says that the Legion's "citizens" have more safety and security than those of the NCR so you can stop with that line, champ. It's not a Legion policy to go around randomly murdering the entire population and you're blind if you think it is. Caesar is creating an Empire. What he does is a means to an end. There is no point in killing/enslaving everyone and stifling the economy so he doesn't do it. But hey ho now who is really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning? :greenie:Quote:
The thing is, NCR does provide safety and security for its citizens. ALL OF ITS CITIZENS. There are no slaves, no people punished for speaking out. Caesar's Legion cannot provide safety for its citizens because it endorses the mistreatment and subjugation of a large portion of its citizens. Whatever security the NCR somehow fails to provide, it makes up for by not establishing a certain portion of the population as objects.
There's that man of straw again, sugar! Never said that. The NCR's military smurfing vastly dominates the Legion's. The NCR flies around in Vertibirds with Thermic Lances and smurfing Laser Rifles. The Legion's best weapon is a chainsaw xDQuote:
Also, if the Legion was so capable of performing better than NCR militarily, why haven't they been able to expand in their territory until a massive political paradigm shift is specifically engineered in their favor?[/COLOR]
So you tell me why the Legion can keep its lands under greater control and fight the NCR to a stalemate. :greenie:
I never once said it was discussion of good and evil. I even said that this isn't a black-and-white issue.
As for the Fiends,they don't exist where NCR has territory, do they? :colbert:
The worst thing NCR required the Followers to do is relocate. That is the Legion at its best. As for the Kings, at worst the Kings take upon attacking NCR citizens prior to be targeted. Great Khans will be targeted for being aligned with Caesar, again, at worst.
No one is saying NCR is aparticularly pleasant place to live, but I'd much rather be NCR than Legion. WHICH IS ALL I WAS EVER TRYING TO SAY.
And yes, I will concede that Legion does provide safety to its citizens. However, I think the relative security of NCR is vastly superior considering the huge portion of the population that is enslaved, if not killed, under Legion expansion.
And the point I was trying to make is that if you are a slave, you don't really have much security, now do you?
All around Camp McCarran you have a Fiend smurffest son! It's like a bizarre goat farm out there.
Also I actually liked the Legion ending a bit more for the Followers:
After the Legion's victory, Caesar, out of a strange respect for his old fellows, allowed the Followers safe passage out of the wasteland. Reluctantly, the Followers accepted the offer and abandoned Old Mormon Fort to the Legion.
See? He's alright really. :jess: As for the Khans being punished for allying with Caesar, as I pasted earlier in the thread - if the Khans sell Caesar out the NCR smurfs them over anyway.
Anyway I can sum this up with a quality of life hierachy under the Big 2:
1. Legion citizen
2. NCR citizen
3. Legion slave
Under Caesar's lads the highs are higher and the lows are lower. And if you really, and I mean really, got into the true spirit of this game... you'd take a chance at being #1 and roll the dice! Ring-a-ding, baby.
It seems you have reached the point of not really trying. Imperialist. :colbert:
There's a perk called Sneering Imperialist and it's the best! And I'm not trying because I'm not pro-Legion and debating their particular benefits has begun to bore me. We say "It's not black and white!" and other such platitudes, and it's not when it comes to NCR v Legion, but it sure as smurf is for the real outcome of the game.
I'm going to make one further post and one post only, save for discussions on DLC themes. :greenie: Time for a wall of words. It's up to you if you want to read it or not so I'll spoiler the least relevant bits.
(SPOILER)See, the way this game is framed, you see NCR as the good guys and the Legion are the bad guys, but if you dig a little deeper when the game goes on, you learn the NCR isn't as good as it first appeared nor the Legion quite so bad. To me, like all the Paragon players in ME, you're all stuck in your ways of thinking. You're afraid to explore.
The reason I guess is simple enough. You've been indocrtinated, for want of a bettter word, from birth to believe that the American/Western way is correct and all alternatives are wrong, and in the unknown and hostile environment of the Mojave Wasteland, that bit of familiarity brings comfort to you.
If you want to be absolute, in that anything short of perfect is wrong, democracy is wrong. Well, no, I tell a lie. It can be wrong. It usually is. It always has been, in fact. A perfect democracy would being every single person in that democracy being hyper-intelligent and benevolent, leading to the right thing being done all of the time. This is practically impossible and as such we've never had one. Now, this isn't to say America's democracy is a bad thing, it is not - it is the best thing under the circumstances! It's just not perfect either, and never will be. NCR sure as smurf is not America, however. America has had the benefit of a very peaceful existence (as in, who has ever legitimately threatened the American people? Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are the two big ones and relatively speaking, they're a nothing) which is very different from ol' NCR. Never mind the Legion, the NCR has been in a bitter war with the BoS for a very long time which saw the NCR's whole currency system collapse. American democracy has never been tested like that.
Now, I mentioned a perfect democracy. Want to know an equally good system? Instead of the entire population being super people - One person. One super-capable and benevolent person free of influence. That's a lot easier to achieve than however many millions of people you'd need for a perfect democracy. It's still practically impossible in the real world too, of course, but hopefully the point emerges.
In New Vegas, there is a super human. The Courier. Every little issue, every trifling dispute to every major catastrophe can be caused and solved by the Courier. Nothing can withstand them. They are a God, and the Mojave revolves around them. The NCR, the Legion, House... none of them are capable of tying their own shoelaces without the Courier doing it for them. Why, then, would any of them be fit to rule?
So you see, the Courier ruling in the Wild Card option is truly the best. They are that superhuman. Their benevolent dictatorship is actually the delirious dream of a madman, perfect as it is. You love the NCR, well let me say this. You put the whole of the NCR in a fight against my Courier, I know exactly who I would bet on. There is no army that can resist the Courier alone, let alone the Courier with the unbelievably broken Securitrons at their back. They are not corrupt, like the NCR. They're not cruel, like the Legion. They're not power-mad like Mr. House Or... are they all three? ;) Or... or... lo and behold... the Courier... perfection.
But, more importantly, let's touch back on democracy for just one second. What do the people of the Mojave truly want? They don't want the NCR or the Legion. What they want, as is evidenced every second you play the game, is that they want the Courier to rule their lives and make the important decisions for them. They don't want to have a say, other than saying that they want the Courier to choose. And, yes, the Courier can choose Legion, or NCR, or House, and that is ultimately the beauty of the game. But what's option four?
The Courier chooses forever (don't say "until they die" because you should go play OWB), and true perfection is attained. And that is the message my Courier delivers to all of you. :)
EDIT: One last point, have any of the NCR fanboys played Lonesome Road? Because I suspect you haven't as it would explain a lot. :shobon:
Of course I've played Lonesome Road. All it did was make me mad because giving your blank slate character a backstory is goddamn stupid. :monster:
Also yes I imagine if everything was perfect then we could have a benevolent dictatorship but it's not so we need to go with the system that can best absorb the flaws and problems of society. I mean I GUESS you can just redefine a bunch of evil trout as not-evil and call it good but...
Yeah the backstory bit was horrendous. The rest of it, the messages Ulysses had to share about "The bear and the bull" made a lot of smurfing sense.
ALSO THE COURIER IS PERFECT DON'T YOU SEE
But Ulysses was an idiot because if what he saw before it got blown up was so great he should sign up with the NCR because they're pretty much the exact thing he describes. He's just romanticizing it because he loved it so much.
Pikey, that's because we're arguing about government and what's good for the people and who has the best intentions, etc etc. This thread should essentially be moved to EoEo because video game politics matter for realsies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
Babe ended the argument with two-headed bear, imo.
And with that, I'm gonna go play Fallout.
A topic which actually moves Paul to taking a side and expressing his opinions must be a serious topic indeed.
While this has all been a fascinating, if not highly poncy read with you lot going back and forth about the merits of the differing factions, at the end of the day and in the simplest terms possible Shorty endorses the NCR therefore they are clearly dire. Could have saved yourself a whole heap of time if you had read the thread properly (although forcing yourself to read Sarah's posts is painful, I grant you that.)
:aimkiss:
NCR and Legion are equal in their trouttiness and goodness, though different in their types. House is a knob. Courier is a perfect and almighty being who constantly strives to improve... well, everything.
If I was a citizen of the game - meaning there is no Courier - I'd probably go for NCR. But I'm not. I'm the Courier, and I am the greatest damn thing that ever happened to the world. :smug:
It's kind of ridiculous in this greyscale game not only to have the player character be so damn magnificent, but also to allow them to take power. It makes the Independent route the only possible route for a sensible person to take.
Both of the last posts from my lads exiled in Asia are 100% correct and I fully endorse them.
So, I'll be getting the Ultimate Edition in the next week (for 50p. lu china <3). As I play, I will update this thread with a case-by-case analysis of a) which member suits each character and b) how installing a benevolent dictatorship under my rule is the greatest thing that ever happened to the world.
I think you're all absolutely insane for even discussing this at such a depth.
We all know there is only one King of the Mojave.
If you say Caesar, I swear to god.nevermind you are obvs referencing the king and I am a ding dong
We haven't found someone to be Yes Man yet!
Steve, assuming Paul is Benny.
I think it would be more fitting if Paul was Yes Man and Steve was Benny.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike