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Final Fantasy Tactics is one of the better games with FF in its title and is, arguably, the best tactical RPG ever made. The Tactics Advance games were less impactful but still a very popular and fun series. So why are no more games being made with the FF Tactics label? I would have thought we'd have at least one more TA game for DS or 3DS.
And, to dream, a true sequel to FF Tactics would be awesome.
My guess would be going from 2.13 million of FFTA sold to 0.69 million in sales of FFTA2 threw some water on the fire.
As much as I love FFT I can't really say I have been enthralled by anything else the Ivalice alliance has produced, so I don't consider it a huge loss to not have any more releases.
Not that deep down I don't hope for a FFT2 that will blow my mind....
Personally, I don't like the direction that the series took in that it started out as a very dark, serious political-oriented story and then its subsequent portable sequels turned to fantastic worlds, races, and powerful children.
I liked that Final Fantasy Tactics was about humans and demons, not the fanciful races of ancient Ivalice working together in harmony.
When I was younger, I used to think that there was potential in a sequel involving Arazlam Durai, wherein he discovers some type of conspiracy -- something like The DaVinci Code -- in the modern Ivalice.
Except TA is nothing like that. TA2 perhaps - I love it for the fun it offers in its carefree nature. But TA deals with the quite heavy topic of escapism, which I believ it handled perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
I, too, wish there were more. Sadly, I doubt it. Not without Matsuno, anyway :(
Did you play FFTA? Did you somehow miss the dictatorial government manipulating facts and enslaving people in a mad scheme to hold on to a fracturing power base? Does dragging an entire town to prison, purging the entire citizenry just because there's a chance a fugitive might be there, count as "working together in harmony"? Did the disenfranchisment of the public and brewing rebellions against the crown somehow not count?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
Not to mention either the escapism theme that dealt with the characters from our world, or the JudgeWatch bonus arc, which was bloody brilliant.
What happened to the games? The team reimagined Tactics Ogre and it was arguably better than all of them.
And Matsuno just quit level 5 to get ready for a new super secret project.
I wouldn't be worried.
Yes, I played Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. I did not miss the dictatorship and how it causing problems among the populace. I also did not miss the fact that the entire world was a take on the real Ivalice turned upside down by giving a type of power to a bullied child. I don't care if an entire town has been taken to prison if the only real people in the entire world are Mewt, Marche, and Ritz. I don't like that type of story. That is my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I was thinking more about Final Fantasy Tactics A2. It deals with the topic of escapism, sure, but it presented a bright, cheery world and conveyed its story through children. I think it has its own merits, thematically, but when you look at the first battles of each game it is hard to take Final Fantasy Tactics AdvanceQuote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
A lot of fans that liked Final Fantasy Tactics Advance are quick to bring up the fact that it deals with some heavy themes in its storyline, and I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that it went in a completely different direction from its original predecessor and we have yet to see a game similar to the original since.
How many of you like Final Fantasy Tactics Advance or Final Fantasy Tactics A2 over the original?
Original rocks my socks off, I have never been interested in FFTA/2. Mostly because of the pinkish colors, but that's me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
Though Tactics is probably the better game and I have a huge respect for it, I personally love TA the most. I also think it is severely underrated and often gets bashed for shallow reasons. Not saying that's what you said, since you were quite respectful, but many people dismiss it as being childish simply judging by the color palette.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
I prefer the Tactics Ogre remake to FFT and it's more FFT than FFT was :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
I agree with you on FFTA, though. My bigger concerns are with the game balance and presentation, I don't have too many problems with the characters and setting, but I do take it less seriously as a game. The Lion King and The Little Mermaid also have heavy themes. That doesn't stop them from being children's films.
Saying that one is shallow for being distracted from the story by the art style is like saying someone is shallow for letting poor dialogue distract them from the great story. Video games are a multi-media art. Gameplay, Writing, Graphics and Music all go into creating the narrative experience. To say that one should look beyond the graphical style to find the real story is essentially saying that at the core all video game can be are a book experience with some flashy graphics, gameplay and music slapped on the side. As far as I am concerned the graphical style the game chooses to use is part of the story they are trying to portray.
I don't care about the graphics of each title as they are strategical role-playing games and the 2D art-style of each game helps it age well. Final Fantasy Tactics, for example, was rereleased only a couple of years ago with no graphical updates aside from adding in some animated cutscenes. That is how a game should be.
I agree with Bolivar about the Disney films comparison. I did think that the story of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance was interesting enough, especially when you look deep into the themes, but I found it hard to care about the denizens of the world knowing that everything was an illusion except for the three children.
To be clear when I am talking about graphics I am talking about art style, not the resolution.
Was it though? Were Montblanc and the clan just "illusions"? Were the friends who fought and suffered not real?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
The main theme is Mewt's refusal to face reality, and his shaping the world to remove problems, rather than face them. But how much of the world that he changed is just an illusion?
When Shara is helping and protecting Ritz, or offering insights into her problems, or her feelings, is she just an illusion?
Mewt changed the world, or created a new one, but it is populated by people who are very real indeed. One of the biggest problems with this game is how little this is touched upon (it does happen, but only in a couple of places), because it does bring an entire new depth to the whole escapism thing, when you have to factor in the impact the events have on the populace.
Not to mention that the characters that are the focus of the game are, in fact, real. The main conflict in the game is actually their coming to terms with their realities instead of just turning away from their problems and ignoring them. It's an entirely different heaviness than Tactics, but I actually think it might get a little over the heads of many children. Heck, a lot of adults found this game's aesop to be wrong, so there you go.
Largely the issue is that Matsuno left. Even though the original TA wasn't directed by him, he was still a part of the project as a producer and so forth. Hell the writer of FFTA itself seemed to be relegated to a more minor role by TA2's development.
Honestly its just a franchise that really was the vision of one guy and when he left the team just didn't really know what to do with it. Bolivar brings up Tactics Ogre but that right there proves the point that this team's skill really is about dancing to Matsuno's tune as I would be curious to feel if he would feel the remake would be the same without him.
FFTactics pretty much set a precedent about the series, and most of Matsuno's early works with Square (FFTactics, Vagrant Story, FFTactics Advance) at their heart deal with complex issues that tear at the heart of the players own world views. The man has a knack for writing moral quagmires filled with emotional landmines and then he expects you to walk through it as you play the games. I mean at its heart, Tactics strength is the tale of Ramza and Delita, the Lucavi and Lion War are simply backdrops to the twisted tale of these two men being forced though the flame of war and hardship and testing their ideals and resolves, its a character play about the reality of good men either being forgotten and cursed for their good deeds or becoming the very evil they seeked to get rid. The last sequence with Delita at the game's end perfectly brings home what FFTactics was really all about.
In Vagrant Story, once again its not so much the issue of political maneuvering and family secrets that is important to the story as much as it is Ashley struggling to find himself (in truth, I would argue Ashley's story is ultimately a better written and less idealistic version of Cloud's story from FFVII) , to watch Sydney rip from under him the very foundation of who he thought he was, and slowly facing the demons of his past. Despite fighting dragons, demons, and evil spirits the game and the cast make it a point to highlight that Ashley himself is the scariest monster of them all and so the story is an issue of mking the player ask the question if its possible for bad people to find redemption. Ashely himself never even gets a real sense of closure, simply choosing to hold onto an idea of who he wants to believe he really is but by game's end, neither Ashley or the player really get to meet the "real Ashley Riot".
FFTactics Advance has been gone over already but really I feel the kiddy nature of the game was perfect for telling a story that for most gamers hit a little too close to home. The idea of escapism into fantasy worlds to escape hardship. The tale just wouldn't have worked as well if the cast was older, it has so much more bite because Marche and the cast are kids and adults often see that time as a point where kids can indulge in selfish desires and escapism; so to watch it taken to an unhealthy extreme was really chilling.
FFXII has Ashe's story but part of me feels it lacks the real bite of the three games I mentioned. It may have been different had Matsuno saw the development through but that is largely baseless expectation at this point. Revenant Wings feels completely out of place because it wasn't made by the same team, just borrowing a few members but major players like Jun Akiyama were absent for that project and it shows because the game largely just steals ideas from the directors last project of FFX and X-2. TA2 is just a game without someone to focus it and it shows, the main plot is weak, and largely borrows ideas from the Never Ending Story, in a way I sometimes feel it was written this way as a means to compensate angry fans who thought the first TA game was going to be a simple FF style version of the Never-ending Story nd got slapped in the face by the stories heavy subtext. Even the few high points in the game just lack the gut-wrenching qualities of the early works. Its a fun world but it lacks the soul that Matsuno puts into his games and it shows. The man is a master of sleight of hand in his writing and design, always presenting you with something that seems simply only to discover too late the deeper subtext of his work.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to rub some "brown" off my nose...
Or, seen another way, it's simply a view on the struggle of redemption. At the end, the "real" Ashley is the one he chooses to be, not the one he was. The image he holds, that he works for, that is the reality. Is the measure of a man how he shaped the world, or how he shapes himself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I still feel differently about this one. I don't think FFTA2 is weak on themes or ideas, but rather on structure, pacing, and execution.Quote:
TA2 is just a game without someone to focus it and it shows, the main plot is weak, and largely borrows ideas from the Never Ending Story, in a way I sometimes feel it was written this way as a means to compensate angry fans who thought the first TA game was going to be a simple FF style version of the Never-ending Story and got slapped in the face by the stories heavy subtext. Even the few high points in the game just lack the gut-wrenching qualities of the early works. Its a fun world but it lacks the soul that Matsuno puts into his games and it shows. The man is a master of sleight of hand in his writing and design, always presenting you with something that seems simply only to discover too late the deeper subtext of his work.
To me the story always feels rushed and unfinished. The Neukhia is basically completely unexplained, Khamja gets far more development in the side plots than in the main plots, and the main story is filled with huge exposition dumps that don't show up anywhere else in the series.
If the game had taken its time with the story elements, not spent half the main questline with pointless tutorials, and really fleshed out its concepts and themes, I think there would have been a very interesting story there. It certainly has some incredibly strong elements with great potential. But they're almost all discarded at the last minute in some rush to a final boss fight, instead of being explained and getting to come to fruition.
The Neukhia, Khamja, the Whitesilver Magicite, Ilua & Cid's relationship, the relationship between the grimoires, Ilua's relationship to the Chosen... So many things this game brings up, only to cast aside in a last minute scene before the final boss without having a chance to develop them.
And the high points of this game are bloody brilliant. I'll rate Frimelda's storyline above any of the writing in FFT.
Since we're at it, lemme ask you guys, since the story is subpar in TA2, what about the gameplay? Do you think it's a game that could satisfy a Tactics fan with just some battles and characters to grind away with?
I think it would certainly satisfy a TA fan. The job system is relativelly the same, just with some new jobs, two new races, etc. But the missions themselves are much more varied, with escort missions, misssions based around talking to people, finding stuff, it's much more varied.
[QUOTE=Skyblade;3241543]We'll have to agree to disagree, while I like Frimelda, I felt her story was mostly unique largely because FFTA2's plot was more on the light hearted side, but I felt Frimelda's story lacked the elements that keep you thinking and wondering which is why I still rate FFT and VS higher than FFTA2. It was a strong story and certainly a high point for the game but it just couldn't redeem the title for me. I still feel Delita was a far more interesting character whose actions and story left you wondering and analyzing whereas Frimelda's story is pretty cut and dry once the smoke clears and there isn't as much to really debate or wonder about. Its the quality that brings forth debate that makes the Ivalice titles interesting for me and I just don't feel anything in FFTA2 really gives me that. Course, I don't feel FFXII has it either sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Its a vast improvement over FFTA and while it still lacks the overly complicated mechanics of the original FFT, the game is superior to its predecessors in terms of mission variety. There are far more missions that are not simply "Kill everyone" which combined with some of the side content allows the gameplay to have stronger legs to carry the game. For me, it was the stories that ultimately carry me through FFT and FFTA, it was the gameplay that kept me going in FFTA2. Of course this all depends if variety is a strong point for you, if you could care less about not having to do the same thing over again, and the customization is all the gameplay you really need, then you may want to go back to the original FFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
There's DnD instead/too. Same platform yet different aesthetics, tone, characters, ect.,.
I wonder where FFT's got the idea?
I agree with Roogle that the later games didn't have the darkness Tactics had. Vagrant Story is set in the same world correct? If so it'd be the only one that came close to matching Tactics story wise imo.
Yeah, I agree with that assessment. I feel like Vagrant Story and Final Fantasy Tactics were on the same level in terms of storyline and setting.
The modern gaming mindset is much different. Lots of people in the gaming communities of today can't comprehend deep stories like Tactics. I'm not calling people stupid, but they don't expect that stuff in games anymore.
And Tactics and Xenogears are both very deep and have compelling stories, maybe the best stories of all time, but in ways are socially unacceptable due to "going against God" and some religious tension.
But come on, there's enough of people like me and lots of others who love deep stories that make a man/woman think. And your facial expressions stay dull, but it's because inside your mind is blown by so many things.
Depth has never been the problem for me. I haven't had trouble understanding the plot of Tactics. I just don't like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkBahamut
It's like A Song of Ice and Fire versus The Lord of the Rings (from a thematic standpoint, not a quality standpoint). Both epic fantasy worlds, but tone, themes, and morals are handled completely differently. I prefer the more uplifting nature of LotR to the morose depression of SoIaF. It doesn't mean that one is better than the other (although LotR is totally way, way better than SoIaF, and anyone who says otherwise is a fool), or that there isn't merit in either's positions. LotR is generally a positive, uplifting story. It can be dark (and when it is, it does it very well), but that isn't the overall point of it. SoIaF is quite the opposite, an overall dark and dreary tone punctuated by lighter moments.
I prefer my world to be an uplifting and positive one. I prefer heroes who are heroic. I don't like watching my favorite characters get killed off every quarter of the story. And I don't like the villains getting away with everything in the end.
So, I prefer the story of FFTA and FFTA2 (even though FFTA2's is executed far worse than FFT's). It's not a question of depth, it's a question of perspective, themes, tone, and world view.
FFTA has a very deep plot. There's a reason I've written essays on it. It simply has a lighthearted tone. A dark tone and more in depth political maneuvering doesn't make a plot "deeper". Analyzing character traits and relationships can be just as deep as analyzing political actions and power plays between countries.
Priorities have shifted. Back when FFT was made, gameplay was the focus, because gameplay was all their was. Now it seems like plots are almost an afterthought for some games (see: the last 5 chapters of FFXIII). Even FFXII, which has the most mature, political plot of the modern FF games, has its plot strung together in such a poor fashion at times that it's sometimes difficult to find very engaging.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkBahamut
FFT was a great game, and I wish we would see more like it. But I kind of doubt it at this point. Maybe a small project eventually on a handheld, in a style more like FFTA2.
I never wondered about Delita. I thought he was an extremely straightforward character, with motivations that I understood from the very beginning. I just hated him. A lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Frimelda's story is one of my favorite character moments in Final Fantasy. Not because it's complicated or keeps you thinking, but rather the opposite. I love it for how simply it defines the character.
Does everything always have to be "complex"? I love the sheer simplicity and power of a strong character moment, something that can portray the heart of a character in a few moments, in a single well-chosen line. And Frimelda's is one of my favorite in Final Fantasy (not necessarily my absolute favorite, I think Tifa still owns that one, but Frimelda is up there).
I loved Tactics, and I would love to see more of it. I actually do prefer darker plots, because, I dunno. Sometimes to me having everything turn out A-OK, hunky dory in the end just ruins it for me. It's realistically not always going to happen. I like dthe complexities of Tactics.
I would like to see that kind of game and execution and maybe have the story where you think you're the protagonist, but you're actually the antagonist, and you lose. Just to get a perspective from the other side. I think with writing like Tactics had, it could be pulled off well.
I don't mind dark stories. Heck, Persona 3 is one of my all-time favorite games, and it has a far darker plot than Persona 4, which I don't like nearly as much because of it's lighter plot (even though I admit it is far better in every technical regard).Quote:
Originally Posted by shion
While a story about a soldier who goes to war and just gets killed may be realistic, it doesn't exactly make for an interesting story, does it?
Do you know why we have tales of heroes and legends? Because they're interesting. Seeing the effects that one king and his knights can have on history, the way they can shape and change things is fascinating. The hardships they face and overcome are great. And there are plenty of historical examples.
True, there are far more examples of people who don't have an impact, who struggle and fail, but there's a reason they're almost never remembered, unless they did something awesome, unless they had and impact, even if they failed.
Also, I dislike plots based on heavy political maneuvering and manipulations, they tend to be too impersonal.
A couple games have tried this. Spec Ops: The Line did something like that.Quote:
I would like to see that kind of game and execution and maybe have the story where you think you're the protagonist, but you're actually the antagonist, and you lose. Just to get a perspective from the other side. I think with writing like Tactics had, it could be pulled off well.
Heck, FFVII did it. Cait Sith's whole "what the frell are you doing blowing up innocent people" rant comes to mind. It then took it in a different direction, and changed the perspective and nature of the fight, but it still went there to a degree.
Yes, I agree. Games like that typically have weak characters or the characters lack enough time or interaction to grow or provide an interesting story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
There are exceptions to the rule, at least. The A Song of Ice and Fire series balances character development and political scheming very well, but it is a different media. Final Fantasy Tactics itself had development for characters for a time, but due to the nature of the story, character arcs end prematurely when the character joins your party, such as Meliadoul.
I disagree. I find that political stories are more likely to have more mature and relatable characters, at least potentially. I don't think I ever hated any villain as much as I hated Algus, and I consider Ramza to be the most relatable protagonist of the FF series.
Political stories are great, it just needs to be continued. The character arcs stopped prematurely because of the perma-death thing. Remove that for the characters and you have a much better narrative overall.
I think any story has the potential to be great, and while I love intrigue, I can understand why Skyblade could get tired of it. The characters can be unrelatable, despite having motivations, because its not always easy to relate to the motivations of a feudal duke or prince. The stories also lose their realistic footing with their obsession with moral relativism. Most people who lie and rob and kill in the real world aren't doing it to feed their starving children or benefit the public welfare.
I think Tactics avoids this pitfall well enough: the more the nobles keep rationalizing their actions, the more monstruous and inherently evil those actions become, with the key players at the end actually being literally possessed by demons. Modern fantasy is rooted in Romanticism, and it was Goethe who said that rationality/reason has made man more savage than any beast. FFT shows you how.
I also agree with Jiro on permadeath, it really adds nothing to SRPGs and should be removed unless it gets worked into the story to reinforce the plot.
I agree on the story prospective, however perma-death can certainly add something to the game-play. In a lot of SRPGs I end up using characters in a very sacrificial manner, however if they are actually gone for good at some point it now becomes imperative to keep them all alive. (or only dead for a short period of time....)
I can see myself playing the game a lot differently if perma-death was removed. Which is a pitty because I would have liked to see a lot more dialogue out of a lot more characters as the game progressed. Maybe a debilitating injury mechanic?