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Okay, I am well aware of what the creators and the Ultimania has said about this issue so there is no reason to bring that up. This is not a thread about who is the actual mastermind, this is a discussion about which choice do you feel is better. Basically do you agree with the established canon that Sephiroth was always in control all the time or do you prefer the debunked fan theory that Sephiroth was a puppet the whole time to Jenova. Make sure to state your reasoning.
I prefer the Sephiroth controlling Jenova theory. Mostly because I worked all this reasoning out for it in a previous thread.
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Originally Posted by Skyblade
I might be able to clarify this a little more with (what else!) a Lord of the Rings reference. The Ring is a part of Sauron, forged from his blood, his strength, his emotions. Yet, when the final battle on the fields of Pellenor takes place, Sauron fears that Aragorn has the Ring and will use it against him. Why? Because, despite what the movies imply, the Ring could destroy Sauron. The Ring was the only thing that could undo him, either through its destruction or its power. Used by someone with a stronger will, it could purge Sauron from this world.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFERJenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Why, then, did our heroes not take advantage of this? Because that would not change the nature of the Ring. It was still an object of evil and corruption. Merely desiring it can corrupt someone, and using it corrupts them further. Aragorn could have overcome Sauron, but using the Ring in that way would have had such an impact on his soul that he would have become a Dark Lord himself, one who (since he had defeated Sauron) would have been even more powerful. For that matter, Galadriel (had she been stronger willed than Sauron, a question never directly answered, since they never have a mental battle) would have been much the same thing. "In place of a Dark Lord you would have a queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!" New name, new personality, same evil.
Jenova works out much this way. It's a small, unassuming thing. It works its way in, shifting and corrupting. Putting on a friendly face, the Ancients do not recognize it until it is too late. As the calamity reaches its peak, the Cetra sacrifice everything to be rid of it, and it is lost for millenia. When found it is used, by those ignorant of its true nature and purpose. It begins, slowly, to eat away at their hearts and minds. During his time in the Lifestream, Sephiorth finally realizes what Jenova is, that it is more than just some nameless cells inside him, that it has a mind, a purpose, and that it is trying to use even him. He gathers his own will against it, and overcomes it. But no one makes it out of a fight like that without scars. Jenova as it was is gone, yes. One Dark Lord defeated. But using that power so warped and twisted Sephiroth that he no longer has the moral strength to proceed down a correct path. His old path, avenging the Ancients and restoring his mother is lost, for he destroyed Jenova himself and learns that he is closer to a descendent of that which destroyed the Ancients than Cloud is. So he dwells, with no path to follow, with no route to take, and with his very soul torn asunder by the conflict he won.
So he chose a new path.
JENOVA is pure animal. Programed to fulfill its purpose of life and using its intelligence to do so. I don't rate a chameleon a possibly better marionette king than an actual person who is also very well partly an animal but not only (especially not mainly) as I never call an animal evil either (while JENOVA very well has the intelligence to understand such things, still it just lives for what it is coded to do and is "destructive in nature" other than a person who can do itn for several reasons). Also the game itself saying it was all Sephiroth's plan when they all arrived at the crater and realized they have chased JENOVA (as in "JENOVA's body" and not more like the rest shows since we know Sephiroth can project and transfer his consciousness like Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars or M. Bison from Street Fighter) never let me doubt it. Also Final Fantasy is about will power. Sephiroth can wipe the floor with JENOVA's will and the most intriguing thing about this is, that Sephiroth, who has even been written to have the strongest and an indestructable will somehow was surpassed by Cloud who is truly fighting for something that is precious to him. It surely is plot device but what isn't in DBZ ... wait, that was Final Fantasy. Anime villains are all the same. They are all defeated with love (or at least friendship in a way, something positive, normally love to an extent) that strengthens them. The power of everything good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh5HSgNgEWQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltuJsbOLGh0
Whether using the lifestream or the headquarters makes no difference.
And for the rest of the thread. We can think what we want. It will not change the truth.
My personal best take is that Sephiroth is 'in control' so much as he is the one deciding on all the actions. However Jenova is not so much a manipulator of actions, but is behind the scenes subconsciously tweaking Sephiroth's motivations.
So Sephiroth's plan is his own, but the reason he wants to do it in the first place is because of Jenova messing with his head.
Basically, if Jenova's influence were removed from Sephiroth, he would have gone a different route. "The way to dawn."
Hojo is the root of all evil in FFVII.
Sephiroth and Jenova were just more of his playthings.
But between these two, I have written a previous threat about how Sephiroth's character during the game is completely inconsistent and nonsensical when you factor in what we saw in Nibelheim. He has entirely different goals and no real motive. As such I prefer to think Jenova warped his mind in some way or another as there's no other explanation for his "I want to take the Planet back for the Cetra/Jenova" changing to "Screw the Cetra, I wanna be a God!"
Metaphorically spoken, like many things in Final Fantasy VII are meant, yes. This really comes to the natural urge to do something. Sephiroth has become a human JENOVA. He is his own person, his own individual but JENOVA is part of his instinct and such as we breathe, eat, go to the toilet, reproduce and sleep Sephiroth always had that. He just has so much control over himself (until On the Way to a Smile where he was a bit weakened so he needed to link his consciousness to memories to become more indestructible) that he can use the part of his personality, "JENOVA", his "Id", that he can do with it whatever he wants. It is not his master but a normal part of his being, like we have as well (except it not the nature of JENOVA for us). In the end it doesn't change much about what both do as it is pretty much the same but I have yet to see super villains who are not destructive in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Sephiroth always had been an arrogant person and his motives changing, better said, modifying (not even much, he still thinks he is superior and now just wants to rule everything without avenging the Cetra) is just a result of him realizing that he is no Cetra at all so he doesn't need to fight for them as he is what actually eradicated them (again metaphorically of course; he didn't do that at all - except you count the last strike with Aerith but I meant 2000 years before by decimating them).
Ah....Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER
I think, based on the way I ended it that might be something I wrote when I was trying to come up with theories about Final Fantasy, and state them as factual (though I'm surprised at myself for saying that Square said so, but not that surprised at myself because I was like that back then, sadly). I was basically trying to be the next Future Esther, but I was clearly failed as his theroies made sense and were planned better, and were more than just "the answer was there".
If it was a direct lie (which wasn't what FE did) I appologise, though if this was a genuine thing that Square said that I forgot about it's okay. EIther way, I don't do that now.
Weird being suspicious of yourself, right?
I think it is one of the most normal things to be somehow disgusted by the own person or ashamed of how you were in the past. We are in a continous learning process.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER
The Jenova/Sephiroth relationship is one of a group of plot elements that was subtly written to be ambiguous - it's up to the player to decide what really happened and its success is evident, given the ensuing debates to this day.
The sophistication and success of the writing is part what made FFVII the standout game for the medium that is.
Except for the fact that it is directly stated in the Northern Crater that it was Sephiroth's plan (unequivocally) all along while JENOVA is shown animalic and it was also stated he uses her Reunion to achieve his goal so those with the other theory should have just played the game. Something explicity shown in an unequivocal way with all parts of a puzzle being called ambigious is a bad excuse for someone who does not like what actually happens, still the puzzle only has one way to solution and one picture, without looking at you. I don't know you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Yeah, but isn't it just someone from in game saying it? I mean, they have no way of knowing for sure either. And if memory serves me correctly it was Hojo, who I don't necessarily label as a credible source. (Or at least a trustworthy one.)
Hojo fully discovered the phenomenon of Reunion and it was 100% verified when he arrived at the crater. He himself said he was wrong first but corrected everything then. Hojo is, despite Sephiroth hating him, the scientist who fully understood the nature of JENOVA as he stole Gast's documents and found out what Gast did not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
When a moment of enlightenment in the game itself is not credible you may not trust a single line in the entire game. Or to say it better, all answers lie in the game, as Tetsuya Nomura said.
Technically Nomaru and I think Kitase have confirmed that it was all Sephiroth all along in the Ultimania for I beleive Advent Children? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure this was one of the plot threads the creators actually spoke out about because some fans felt the idea of Sephiroth being controlled made him a deranged but tragic victim but the creators want you to know he's just an evil guy.
To get this back on topic though, this is not a thread about who was in control it's about which would have made for a better story in your own opinion. I actually prefer the idea of Sephiroth being used by Jenova but believing it's his own plan because I feel it gives more depth to a rather flat character.
I wrote a treatment of over 30 pages only about this character. He is not as flat as you think. And it is not a "oh, I like him because he is so attractive" treatment but only about his character, life and everything mentioned in the official material. The Compilation characters are brilliantly developed. No wonder, the more you add the more dimensional they become. The "being of evil" (the nature of evil) itself always is flat somehow, even if it has some human motivation, which Sephiroth has.
And I think, as said, it is better for Sephiroth to be the main villain as he is not just an animal and it would not have fit his character and abilities at all, not to mention it is weird to have those wannabe-villains that just were not the villains but are only revealed to be the controlled one at the very end or it not being mentioned at all while at least being implied. All that can go the void.
1. It is about his actual character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
2. Lol. I can't say, actually I don't need to say more to that because it is flat-out not true. Those old Final Fantasy villains have no depth at all because it is not focussed on their character for real and for Sephiroth it just was very well focussed on him. Replay the game. It all makes sense as much as possible. Sephiroth's hunger for power reflects his feelings about being superior to anyone and wanting to prove it. Not to mention that his pride has been hurt by Cloud so no wonder he wants it even more but in the first place he is a "spoiled child" who has always been the very best like no one ever was and so of course he reaches out for more of that. By the way, revenge, arrogance and all that human stuff is enough to write a good and reasonable character (somehow reasonable). You wish for something impossible to be told. Really reasonable destruction of something good and living. And that is not the very nature of us. Also again it is no matter of feeling. It is a fact, Sephiroth was written more human now. He had friends, he was very arrogant in the first place but not really that he showed off all the time as he's not the type (or at least was, no he has Cloud to torment). His grudge was more developed, he tainted te Lifestream and laughed about Aerith because of how powerless she was compared to him as he continues to become stronger and that just supports his arrogance. That is called addition. Sephiroth has a very human character-wise weakness and that makes him very good when it comes to that. Surely many villains are arrogant but this one is really developed.
He's flat Attachment 53183
The fact you could write a 30 page dissertaion is remarkable but I probably couldn't about his actual character because beyond his back story, he is largely a petty jumble of overused villain cliches. I don't feel the Compilation added anything to his character. He's got a heart breaking back story but then he just goes crazy and wants to destroy the world so he can be god, even when his plan doesn't make sense in relation to the actual events going on in the game.
He has as much depth as Ex-Death or Emperor Mateus.
Mateus didn't have a back story and X-Death hardly had one at all.
Also, Sephiroth (the EoFF member), I think you're overstating how unequivocal your evidence really is, particularly considering one of the major themes of the game is the illusion of agency.
Unequivocal is not what I want, it is what it is. The game itself tells you several lies and comes to the point were everything is explained step by step. And we all know that. Explaining something for the sake of just showing another illusion (that is never ever revealed as such) is not what the game is like. The Northern Crater only shows one new big lie (a half-truth) and that comes from no one but - guess who - the guy who twists their mind all the times and that is Sephiroth saying Cloud didn't exist 5 years and that he is a clone. That he is a "clone" (in the Compilation: guy who has JENOVA cells) is the true part that he was created is the lie. And even that is explained to be wrong. You want a direct evidence and that is one. Not accepting it means you are not accepting any evidence at all because there cannot be a thing more direct than saying it was Sephiroth's plan all along. Except you want: "By the way (breaking the fourth wall) for you guys: Sephiroth is the main villain and had the full power over JENOVA. And that is no lie as we write this for you to know the answer." You cannot expect that. As pretty much everyone you took a part of my post and ignored the rest that actually is enough to explain it. I could easily tell you the Ultimania Omega says the same thing, that Hojo found out about this after doing his research - which was why JENOVA's body was in the HQ, as he thought it initiated the Reunion - but you probably would say that the Ultimania was written afterwards and then continue to ignore the text in the game itself - which pretty much makes the whole convesation no good. My counter argument for your hypothetical case of the game generally making it hard to believe something and having the theme of illusion making it impossible to say what actually is would be, if you cannot trust anything you cannot trust the game to have this theme as well. As well as you cannot trust the things that you really like and think of as given because you don't know if it really is. But I don't need that. Things are and things are not. Believe me. This is no evil talking of me who just wants to lure you joining the dark side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
I think that is the point. At every turn in this game we are exposed to memories and explanations which are either lies, false or distorted by perspective. Given this environment I don't see why we are expected to believe a character who just happens to get the last word in edgewise. The game cultivates the atmosphere where we are supposed to not trust anyones interpretation of what is going on, meaning there is ambiguity to everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothExcept you want: "By the way (breaking the fourth wall) for you guys: Sephiroth is the main villain and had the full power over JENOVA. And that is no lie as we write this for you to know the answer." You cannot expect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
In my opinion this is one of the attractive pieces of storytelling in the game.
You are missing the relevant point here. Your point is one aspect of the game but it is not omnipresent in the whole game and it is supposed to be revealed until the end. Some guy who is one of the most revealing plot devices with him researching the lifeform that the story is about without any problems admits he was wrong because what is right has been shown at that point of the story. And ignoring that it is one of the "the mist starts to disappear" moments takes away the purpose of the game's storytelling. You must admit that this is getting polemical. Final Fantasy VII is a puzzle that is meant to be solved. And as mentioned it is just one certain puzzle. JENOVA is never shown as being an actual character because it is not and the story never says it is controlling him and that it is the master mind. That aside, once Hojo explains the situation it is never mentioned again and never something to doubt about this comes afterwards. The story lives of messing with you and then surprising you with the message of what actually was all along and that is a very common way to tell a story. There is no cultivating. It is wishful thinking of people who just don't want to trust the guys who know it (the storytellers) at all, meaning the story as it is is worthless for them. I am a man and I can prove it to you. Do you still show disbelief as long as I don't stand in front of you and prove it as much as possible? It will not change that I am a man. Such things are not necessary and actually the story already does prove it as much as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
This is leading to nowhere. And Wolf is killing us for using the thread for something else. I see it coming.
As well as does he not think that JENOVA is an Ancient, he is just messing around with the characters often enough. Everyone knew that JENOVA was no Cetra at that point - except the main characters. In Crisis Core even Genesis knew it from the scientists and he told it Sephiroth but Sephiroth does not believe him after he read the documents and let's leave that aside because we are talking about what existed before. He totally knew Gast was right which was why he stole the information. You just took something that was never mentioned because it is not true. And the Ultimania Omega and the game itself says something completely different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
No, he doesn't. He considers him a success after he realizes. Replay the Sister Ray scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Of course it is full of holes if you ignore what's given. Again you just use the parts you want and ignore the rest, claim something to be wrong which was never said to be and perfectly shown to be the explanation in the moment of truth. This is not leading to the desired answer. The game does some things to show Hojo is fallible and letting him admit it by realizing what is actually true. That is something completely different. And I already mentioned that. Before you didn't understand but now you realize it. Hojo saw it was Sephiroth because it was initiated by him after a while because Sephiroth has JENOVA's head because he can control JENOVA's powers. All that was found out by Hojo and that is exactly what was the case. You cannot say it is something natural or something that can be done at will because it can be done both ways. The reunion is an instinct and the core gives the command. Thoser things are exactly shown in the game and in the Ultimania Omega and not what Hojo is discredited to be or anything. Realizing truth after making a mistake does not make the truth wrong and it definitely does not show incompetence. All three scientists were wrong in many things. But Hojo was the only one who found it out by personal experience - and stealing Gast's things who knew it after Iphalna told him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
And of course you, Bolivar, Mercen or anyone else returning and making the same mistake, which I have seen in multiple threads (and by pretty much everyone in all kinds of topics of life) will not change what is canon, what was ever intended and what is clearly shown. Don't get me wrong. I am far away from being infallible. However I very well take information fully when it is possible for me and not with a flashlight and that is possible in a fictional topic. And no matter how often someone comes in here and talks about ambiguity, the game saying it was Sephiroth all along is no ambiguity. So keep struggling against axioms if you want but you shouldn't.
But knowing he is upset makes me feel all warm inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
This is kinda the point of this topic, but if you like thinking that the story should've gone another way, or did something differently, that's totally fine. Knock yourself out.
However, know when you are in contradiction to canon. Again, there's no problem if you stand in contradiction to canon, but - and this is important - it makes little sense arguing against it. If word of god (as in the creators) state something as fact, whether you like it or not, it's canon. And arguing its legitimacy will lead to nothing. It makes little sense to participate in discussions where other people follow the canon if you yourself deny it. (Not that this should prevent you from denying it for your own enjoyment)
If you like the ambiguity in some parts of the original game, that's good for you. But standing in discussions with people who know how far the canon knowledge extends, there's not much point in bringing that up.
But well, that's what this topic is for after all - to discuss how we WOULD'VE liked the story to go. So let's get back on topic.
Personally, I liked the Brittenham theory when I first read it. Maybe just because it presented Sephiroth as more of a tragic figure than outright villain and I like that trope. But it made just as much sense to me when I later read that Sephiroth's will overpowered Jenova, and it made Sephiroth stand as more of an intimidating villain. So I don't quite know which I'd have preferred to be real. Probably the Jenova control theory, still.
Exactly. Flat Attachment 53183Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarMateus didn't have a back story and X-Death hardly had one at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Attachment 53194Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0But knowing he is upset makes me feel all warm inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Actually, Hojo is completely wrong about Jenova. He still thinks Jenova is an Ancient. You say he found Gast's notes but he basically ignored them all out of spite. He still considers Cloud a failure despite him being the only one to achieve the "Reunion" he theorized. Heck, the Reunion theory itself is full of massive holes. It took five years to even begin, and there's absolutely no evidence to indicate that it is a natural function of Jenova (which is what Hojo theorized), as it seems to be much more a case of Sephiroth collecting his tools and setting his plan in motion once he has a pawn to manipulate. Most of the Sephiroth clones are stopped before reaching the Reunion, some killed by Jenova itself, others merely being killed by their trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothHojo fully discovered the phenomenon of Reunion and it was 100% verified when he arrived at the crater. He himself said he was wrong first but corrected everything then. Hojo is, despite Sephiroth hating him, the scientist who fully understood the nature of JENOVA as he stole Gast's documents and found out what Gast did not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloZer0
When a moment of enlightenment in the game itself is not credible you may not trust a single line in the entire game. Or to say it better, all answers lie in the game, as Tetsuya Nomura said.
The game basically does absolutely everything it can to discredit Hojo as a scientist at every level.
Unfortunately, this is not how it works when it comes to literary analysis and interpretation. A few years ago, I attended a panel discussing the works of Joseph Conrad, and the director of my University's English department flat out said, "I don't care what the author's comments are when discussing the meaning of their work." A lot of the younger students were shocked that he said this but the panelists agreed. Furthermore, creators demonstrably change their ideas about their works over the course of their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karifean
Even if this wasn't the case, FFVII was primarily written by four people and portrayed by a much larger team of artists and programmers. It's disingenuous to depict any one source as definitive. But even if it was, you'd still be taking a less sophisticated approach than how literary discussion actually takes place in the real world.
If you guys haven't noticed, Sephiroth is replying to your posts by editing his earlier ones.
Yes, there are two ways to look at a work. Analyzing it yields personal opinion, creator intent be damned. Trying to understand what has happened and will happen after the core story depends entirely upon canon as while anyone can write a continuation, only the creator's can deem those continuations to be part of the accepted continuity.
It's probably well known by now that FFVII isn't one of my favourite entries in the series, but some of this has to do with the fact that Square keeps messing with it and screwing it up further. The original game had a lovely amount of ambiguity that ultimately left the player uncertain of what really happened and whom to trust as a source of information. While some elements of the game's plot were cleared up by the end, large parts of it were not and it's left to the player to determine what really happened. Every time Square adds to it, with Ultimanias or sequels or prequels or whatever else, they take a bit of this ambiguity away, depriving the original game of one of its strengths and, for that matter, directly contradicting one of the themes of the original game.
My actual preference for whether Jenova or Sephiroth were in control would have been for them to leave it ambiguous, as it was in the original game. However, if forced to choose between having the game explicitly depict one or the other, I think having Jenova in control would have been marginally more interesting. I agree completely with Wolf that Sephiroth is a rather boring antagonist.
This kind of thing just makes me glad they haven't ruined FFVI with pointless sequels and other crap.
We spend the whole game thinking that Sephiroth is the threat. He uses parts of JENOVA to try to stop the party. Can you imagine how brilliant a bluff it would be for JENOVA to be the mastermind, willing Sephiroth into using her in a bid to make her ambitions come true under the guise that it would help him obtain what he secretly wanted?