So what characteristics draw you to your favorite RPG leading characters? Is it their innocence, badass qualities, your ability to meld their personalities as blank slates or do you genuinely dislike main characters in RPGs?
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So what characteristics draw you to your favorite RPG leading characters? Is it their innocence, badass qualities, your ability to meld their personalities as blank slates or do you genuinely dislike main characters in RPGs?
I want them compelling and relatable.
I like it when they are tied to the plot in some fashion, don't push a personality too much on you (ie, allow choices of how you respond to things etc), are marginally more competent in battle than most other characters so that you don't feel cheated and they should have some kind of issues.
I can't think of many lead characters I haven't liked, thankfully.
Compelling and relateable is a good starting point, but for someone to be relateable to me is usually quite a bit different for me than someone else. (I found Squall at the beginning of FF8 relateable, but by the end of the game I was ready for him to die in a fire.)
Generally if they are someone I am looking for a connection with I want either:
a) A very self reflective type of character
b) A bad ass character
Or possibly both.
An Anti hero type with a sense of humour. :bigsmile:
Preferably armed with an impressive arsenal of swords. :bigsmile:
those swords not necessary need to be big. :bigsmile:
but must be of a certain respectable length. :bigsmile:
Noctis seems to fit your quota, from what we know of him ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Christmas
I enjoy a blank slate more these days than a pre-set character. Games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Skyrim, and Fallout 3 giving me choices of how to act is nice. I also enjoy how much of a smartass your MC in Dragon Age II can be.
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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
Pretty much, or silent protagonists. Those are my preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToriJ
What I don't want out of a protagonist is a whiny/angsty/oblivious male aged 15-25. Looking at you, JRPGs.
I like them like Zidane with a cool and witty persona.
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Originally Posted by ToriJ
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Originally Posted by Dr UnnePretty much, or silent protagonists. Those are my preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToriJ
What I don't want out of a protagonist is a whiny/angsty/oblivious male aged 15-25. Looking at you, JRPGs.
Traitors, you don't like JRPGS anymore.
I abandoned her during the Cold War.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
The biggest turnoff for me is if they really have nothing to do with the main plot (looking at you Vaan). I do like blank slates probably more, mainly because each time you run through the game it can be a different experience.
Arguably, Vaan is not the main protagonist. And he has tons to do with the main plot, which I have argued on occasion to the point of being tired with it now :stare:Quote:
Originally Posted by StarCross1988
In that he is present for every major event? Yes, I suppose that's true. However, he contributes to almost none of them. Oh, I guess without him, the "I'm Captain Basch" scene wouldn't have happened. So he's necessary for at least one event.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of FynnArguably, Vaan is not the main protagonist. And he has tons to do with the main plot, which I have argued on occasion to the point of being tired with it now :stare:Quote:
Originally Posted by StarCross1988
Don't you start with me today, Sky :stare:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeIn that he is present for every major event? Yes, I suppose that's true. However, he contributes to almost none of them. Oh, I guess without him, the "I'm Captain Basch" scene wouldn't have happened. So he's necessary for at least one event.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of FynnArguably, Vaan is not the main protagonist. And he has tons to do with the main plot, which I have argued on occasion to the point of being tired with it now :stare:Quote:
Originally Posted by StarCross1988
I like playing good guys. If you look at the Golden Sun games, you spend the entire first game chasing after Saturos and Menardi and fixing everything they broke. The Altin Mines, the trees in Kolima, Silk Road, etcetera. Then, in The Lost Age, you play as Felix. And you spend the entire game breaking stuff and taking people's things. You steal the Great Gabomba's magic, you try to steal the boat... You only rarely help people out (yay for Izumo). Isaac is just a better person than Felix.
He also has a better battle theme, which is also important.
NOT silent, for the love of all things good. You can't be involved in the plot if you're not saying anything.
Also, maturity is nice.
In other words, I want Kaim Argonar.
It depends on the type of game. I think the only type of hero I can't really stand is the type that does good for the sake of doing good. They just always come off flat to me and unrealistic, I need a bit more conflict with the character and its hard to make them interesting if they are just being self-righteous all the time. It's why I don't really like good/evil choice systems cause they lack a good middle ground and instead I'm either a Silver Age super hero or some stereotypical super nazi with no redeeming quality.
You can have conflict while "doing good for the sake of doing good". Case in point: Marche Radiuju. He spends the entire game just wanting to do what's right. Yet he's constantly conflicted because he just wants to stay in Ivalice (let's face it: who wouldn't). He's also thrown into conflict with his friends because they want to stay as well. Personal and interpersonal conflict. All because Marche wants to do what's right for no other reason than that it is right.
Done properly, this is almost always the case. It always leads to inner conflict, because what is right is rarely what is pleasant or pleasurable. Desire conflicts with morality. For a hero, morality wins that battle. For villains, desire triumphs (or they're just insane, but that's less fun).
I think Wolf meant cases where it is done mindlessly, which is lost of such cases. Can't really have a shallow character with Matsuno :exdee:
I don't interpret Marche's actions as "doing good for the sake of good" he does good cause he understands that Dream Ivalice is harmful to his friends, the whole point of the Lotus Earter Machine Trope/Platonic Cave allegory is that is it better to face the harsh reality than to live in an illusionary one that stunts the soul and minds ability to grow. The whole cast was running away from their problems and selfishly perpetuating a fake existence at the cost of others (the real people of St. Ivalice) from their lives to fulfill their own selfish needs. Marche is propelled to take action to save his friends from themselves... and a living magical codex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
The character I am actually thinking of is Isaac from Golden Sun because it is him and his parties goody-two-shoe personality that kind of killed the game for me. Dragon Quest has a similar problem but luckily the whole cast tend to lack any real characterization to make it easier to ignore it most of the time.
I need characters that have needs and desires because that is human. Desire is not a trait of villainy it is a trait of humanity itself which is why villains often tend to be more complex and interesting than valiant heroes cause the storybook heroes lacks the traits that allow me to relate to them. I'm not going to save the world for the sake of it, maybe I don't give a damn about it. I'm an adherent to psychological egoism so I can't put much stock in altruism of any kind; so it is up to the writer to explain to me why my characters would care to save the world. I often find that heroes save the world more for selfish reasons, with the actual world-saving part being just a nice bonus to save their friends, get revenge, or make their desires into reality.
To quote a more complex hero.
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Originally Posted by Squall Leonhart
What danger are they in? Do you think Marche could explain what was wrong with staying in Ivalice to any of them? Heck, is there anything wrong with staying in Ivalice for anyone but Mewt? It's not exactly refusing to face reality when reality itself has been completely rewritten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoI don't interpret Marche's actions as "doing good for the sake of good" he does good cause he understands that Dream Ivalice is harmful to his friends, the whole point of the Lotus Earter Machine Trope/Platonic Cave allegory is that is it better to face the harsh reality than to live in an illusionary one that stunts the soul and minds ability to grow. The whole cast was running away from their problems and selfishly perpetuating a fake existence at the cost of others (the real people of St. Ivalice) from their lives to fulfill their own selfish needs. Marche is propelled to take action to save his friends from themselves... and a living magical codex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Yes, heaven forbid we have a character in a game who isn't just an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.Quote:
The character I am actually thinking of is Isaac from Golden Sun because it is him and his parties goody-two-shoe personality that kind of killed the game for me. Dragon Quest has a similar problem but luckily the whole cast tend to lack any real characterization to make it easier to ignore it most of the time.
Is there anything wrong with wanting to help people out? With attempting to do a little more than just laugh at the misfortune of others as you walk by? With carrying power far beyond that of 99% of the world's population and actually suint that power to make a difference where you can?
So just because you are a complete ass who feels no compassion for others and no reason to help when you can, that makes those who do bad characters? I'm apparently not human because I enjoy helping people. I go out of my way to assist those in trouble, to carry burdens, help people get around, etcetera. And if I was one of only dozens of people in the world capable of using magic, I'd do a hell of a lot more.Quote:
I need characters that have needs and desires because that is human. Desire is not a trait of villainy it is a trait of humanity itself which is why villains often tend to be more complex and interesting than valiant heroes cause the storybook heroes lacks the traits that allow me to relate to them. I'm not going to save the world for the sake of it, maybe I don't give a damn about it. I'm an adherent to psychological egoism so I can't put much stock in altruism of any kind; so it is up to the writer to explain to me why my characters would care to save the world. I often find that heroes save the world more for selfish reasons, with the actual world-saving part being just a nice bonus to save their friends, get revenge, or make their desires into reality.
Or we could just say that there is right and wrong, but we live in a morally bankrupt society that teaches people that there are no morals and anything is ok as long as it makes you feel good.Quote:
To quote a more complex hero.
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Originally Posted by Squall Leonhart
They are running away from their problems, isn't that trouble enough, how can they ever grow strong in character if when life makes things difficult for them they simply choose the easiest option to get out of it that requires some outside force to help them. You can't get anywhere in life if you choose a world where you can't face your problem. Ivalice isn't just Mewt's dream to run away it's everyones. Not to mention that they gain their goals by wiping out the lives of people were living in their home town, or brainwashing parental figures to fit your ideals for them cause you are too embarrassed to face them or accept them. I mean everyone but Marche is actually being selfish here since they would rather rewrite reality to be their paradise rather than face their lives. We all have issues in our lives that we don't want to deal with but growing up is about facing those problems, picking ourselves up when we fail, and shouldering on in good or bad. It is a much more fulfilling existence than hedonism. The whole point of the story is understanding this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
He's boring and prediuctable. I felt like I was watching a Saturday moning cartoon show which have those cheesy moral lesson scenes at the end. Anytime something was in trouble he would sidestep his quest to help out. The best part about the game was discovering that he doomed the world in the end because he never stopped to really ask anyone about the history of Alchemy and instead just did as he was told.Quote:
Yes, heaven forbid we have a character in a game who isn't just an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.
There is nothing wrong with being good, I just prefer characterization with it. Marche does what he must because he is trying to save his home and his friends, Ramza fights the cause of the war because he witnesses first hand its horrors in the early chapters. The main characters of all the Suikoden games are inspired to save their homes because of loss, national pride, or to end suffering they have seen first hand.Quote:
Is there anything wrong with wanting to help people out? With attempting to do a little more than just laugh at the misfortune of others as you walk by? With carrying power far beyond that of 99% of the world's population and actually suint that power to make a difference where you can?
Isaac? Is a nice kid who was in the wrong place, gets orderd to save the world and does it. Where his raison d'etre? To give this a Final Fantasy spin, Cecil vs. Bartz, Bartz goes along with saving the world because he's a nice guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and ultimately resigns himself to destiny due to a late game plot revelation that his father was a Dawn Warrior. His reasoning is shallow. Cecil did some bad things and it was his cowardice and in ability to stand up to his beliefs that led to suffering. He is compelled to do good because he no longer wants to be the man he was yesterday. His desire is manifested with his class change to Paladin and even though he fails he always picks himself back up and goes on. It is far more inspiring than Bartz. We strive to be Bartz but we all know we're more like Cecil, we all have a moment in our lives where we faltered to weakness instead of taking the high road.
That's a little uncalled for, you fail to try and understand my perspective. I simply need to understand where the character is coming from. Doing good for selfish reasons is not inherently wrong, maybe people do good because we enjoy it and it makes us feel good which itself is enough of a reason. Selfishness is not a bad trait in small doses and like Thomas Hobbes, I feel it is the basis for all morality.Quote:
So just because you are a complete ass who feels no compassion for others and no reason to help when you can, that makes those who do bad characters? I'm apparently not human because I enjoy helping people. I go out of my way to assist those in trouble, to carry burdens, help people get around, etcetera. And if I was one of only dozens of people in the world capable of using magic, I'd do a hell of a lot more.
Basically the issue I have here is that writing a traditionally morally good character is too easy. They are just like that and there is no reason needed to understand them. An asshole is different, we always find out why they are the way they are and most of the times events in the story will lead them back to being a bit of a more nice guy. There is nowhere to grow for upstanding people. It's why most people prefer the second Golden Sun game cause Felix is a more complex hero willing to side with some unsavory people to save the world whereas Isaac is pretty much a flat character overall. You can write a compelling morally righteous character (see Cecil, Ramza, Marche, etc...) but I often find most writers are lazy with these type of characters which is why I don't feel many RPG fans like myself enjoy them.
They didn't exactly choose to rewrite reality. It just sort of happened around them. If you suddenly woke up in paradise, would you honestly try to stop and figure out how to get back to the real world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoThey are running away from their problems, isn't that trouble enough, how can they ever grow strong in character if when life makes things difficult for them they simply choose the easiest option to get out of it that requires some outside force to help them. You can't get anywhere in life if you choose a world where you can't face your problem. Ivalice isn't just Mewt's dream to run away it's everyones. Not to mention that they gain their goals by wiping out the lives of people were living in their home town, or brainwashing parental figures to fit your ideals for them cause you are too embarrassed to face them or accept them. I mean everyone but Marche is actually being selfish here since they would rather rewrite reality to be their paradise rather than face their lives. We all have issues in our lives that we don't want to deal with but growing up is about facing those problems, picking ourselves up when we fail, and shouldering on in good or bad. It is a much more fulfilling existence than hedonism. The whole point of the story is understanding this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
They had no real way of knowing what happened. They certainly had no way of knowing that it had a cost to others (if indeed it did). Marche could very easily be the one refusing to face the fact that reality is simply not as stable as we might like to believe, at least early on in the story.
But all of this still just boils down to "it's the right thing to do". What is his reason for turning himself into the judges and trying to save the people of Muscadet? Does he know that it will get him access to Exodus? No. Does he know that he won't remain in prison forever and never get his friends back to St. Ivalice? No. He just knows that letting a village get enslaved and imprisoned because he chose to buck the system is wrong.
Well, actually, there is almost no one who could have told him the history of Alchemy in a way that would have made any difference. Everyone except Hydros and Lunpa thought Alchemy would result in the end of the world. Even Kraden wanted to bring back Alchemy, not to save the world, but to save Babi. So even if Isaac had asked about the history of Alchemy (or, as the game implies, just listened to the lectures at Sol Sanctum), he wouldn't have come to any other conclusions.Quote:
He's boring and prediuctable. I felt like I was watching a Saturday moning cartoon show which have those cheesy moral lesson scenes at the end. Anytime something was in trouble he would sidestep his quest to help out. The best part about the game was discovering that he doomed the world in the end because he never stopped to really ask anyone about the history of Alchemy and instead just did as he was told.Quote:
Yes, heaven forbid we have a character in a game who isn't just an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.
What's more, we actually know from game canon that the world is equally doomed if Isaac does nothing. Whether because Saturos and Menardi would have failed to ignite Jupiter and Mars, or whether they or Alex would have led the world into a disaster that would have consumed the world, we know that everything ends if Isaac gives up.
You think Isaac is boring because he helps people. I find it pleasantly refreshing amongst all the psychotic jerks in the gaming industries these days. I find the "edgy dark antihero" trope that is dominating the market to be far more boring.
There are tons of reasons for Isaac to help people. Heck, he's basically an ambassador of magic to people who are completely mundane. And he's following in the footsteps of some magicians who go around absolutely destroying everything they come across. It's like someone following Magneto and trying to convince people that all mutants aren't bad. Maybe helping rescue some livelihoods will help.
Isaac is a silent protagonist. We don't get to see a lot of direct characterization. That's why I actually adore the way the two games demonstrate characterization. Neither Isaac nor Felix speak in their respective games. Yet you can still get a great insight into what sort of people they are, where they place their priorities, and what they value just from how the games play out. For being a silent protagonist, you get a surprising amount of depth in Isaac's character.Quote:
There is nothing wrong with being good, I just prefer characterization with it. Marche does what he must because he is trying to save his home and his friends, Ramza fights the cause of the war because he witnesses first hand its horrors in the early chapters. The main characters of all the Suikoden games are inspired to save their homes because of loss, national pride, or to end suffering they have seen first hand.Quote:
Is there anything wrong with wanting to help people out? With attempting to do a little more than just laugh at the misfortune of others as you walk by? With carrying power far beyond that of 99% of the world's population and actually suint that power to make a difference where you can?
Isaac? Is a nice kid who was in the wrong place, gets orderd to save the world and does it. Where his raison d'etre? To give this a Final Fantasy spin, Cecil vs. Bartz, Bartz goes along with saving the world because he's a nice guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and ultimately resigns himself to destiny due to a late game plot revelation that his father was a Dawn Warrior. His reasoning is shallow. Cecil did some bad things and it was his cowardice and in ability to stand up to his beliefs that led to suffering. He is compelled to do good because he no longer wants to be the man he was yesterday. His desire is manifested with his class change to Paladin and even though he fails he always picks himself back up and goes on. It is far more inspiring than Bartz. We strive to be Bartz but we all know we're more like Cecil, we all have a moment in our lives where we faltered to weakness instead of taking the high road.
In Golden Sun, there's a part where you encounter some people near the river who have been transformed into trees. After you fight off the villains, they push the people over, and one of them is dangerously close to falling into the river. All you have to do is take two steps out of your way to use your Psynergy to rescue the person.Quote:
That's a little uncalled for, you fail to try and understand my perspective. I simply need to understand where the character is coming from. Doing good for selfish reasons is not inherently wrong, maybe people do good because we enjoy it and it makes us feel good which itself is enough of a reason. Selfishness is not a bad trait in small doses and like Thomas Hobbes, I feel it is the basis for all morality.Quote:
So just because you are a complete ass who feels no compassion for others and no reason to help when you can, that makes those who do bad characters? I'm apparently not human because I enjoy helping people. I go out of my way to assist those in trouble, to carry burdens, help people get around, etcetera. And if I was one of only dozens of people in the world capable of using magic, I'd do a hell of a lot more.
Basically the issue I have here is that writing a traditionally morally good character is too easy. They are just like that and there is no reason needed to understand them. An asshole is different, we always find out why they are the way they are and most of the times events in the story will lead them back to being a bit of a more nice guy. There is nowhere to grow for upstanding people. It's why most people prefer the second Golden Sun game cause Felix is a more complex hero willing to side with some unsavory people to save the world whereas Isaac is pretty much a flat character overall. You can write a compelling morally righteous character (see Cecil, Ramza, Marche, etc...) but I often find most writers are lazy with these type of characters which is why I don't feel many RPG fans like myself enjoy them.
Or you could just walk on by, and then you later find out that one of them got washed away by the river and drowned. Because you didn't feel like being a goody two shoes.
So, yeah, if you can't sympathize with the person with magic actually taking two seconds to save someone's life just because he feels it's the right thing to do, I kind of think you're a jerk.
Put Skyblade and Wolf into one room...
:wcanoe:
There has to be a reason he was the first person I sent a Friend Request to on this site. Someday I'll figure it out.
You can have a character who is a good guy for the sake of being a good guy but still give him more meaning. I think Zidane did a good job of that. Zidane is just a good guy, but he has character and he has heart.
I think to give a real world example of what Wolf is talking about, unless I misunderstand him, is that good people have a reason for being good. I have always gone out of my way to help others, to give back when I can, to volunteer, to donate money, to donate food, to put someone up when they need it, etc etc, (heck if someone asked me for a kidney I would have a hard time saying no even if I had never met them) because I want to be a good person and do good things for others. But I didn't magically wake up one day and say "Gee, I'm going to do all of this." It came from having a crap life and not wanting anyone else to ever have to feel the way I've felt. Sure some of it is probably just how my brain works, I have a really high sense of empathy which also helped push it forward, but it came from somewhere.
I think what he's saying is its great to have characters like that, but show us why they're like that. Show us what made them that way, even if its just growing up in a strong environment with plenty of support and having been raised to care about others.
Also give them some depth because everyone has faults and everyone has struggles. Making a character like that makes them more relateable and believable and makes for a stronger character
I'd be like Marche and highly suspicious, if I got a mysterious check in the mail for a ton of money I'd hold onto it until it's real owner showed up, not cash it in cause I think someone out there likes me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
True, but the player knows because we saw that the new Ivalice overwrote the real reality and we saw that Mewt's dream world had forced Cid's will to bend to Mewt's desire. Once Marche confronts all of them about the state of the world, all of them choose to reject it to fulfill there own desires.Quote:
They had no real way of knowing what happened. They certainly had no way of knowing that it had a cost to others (if indeed it did). Marche could very easily be the one refusing to face the fact that reality is simply not as stable as we might like to believe, at least early on in the story.
For me the main reason to understand that Dream Ivalice is false is because Montblanc and his entire Clan willingly help Marche with his goal, which tells me one of two things: a) Montblanc and by extension the people of Dream Ivalice are somewhat aware that their world is not the right reality, b) Montblanc, like Judgemaster Cid is compelled against his will by Marche's wishes to go home.
He is boring cause we get no real background of who he is. He's a nice kid with special powers trying to save the world. Let's compare him to Ryu from Breath of Fire II, who grew up with a caring father, a missing mother, a loving sister, one day wakes up to find they are all gone and is told they never existed. He teams up with a selfish but friendly orphan and the two escape his hometown and live their lives scraping for survival before the game opens up again to show they both grew up to be Rangers, people who help other people, they wish to do this cause their lives had been of one of hardship. Ryu also never speaks, he is also a silent protagonist but we get enough of a backstory to really understand where he is coming from, his relationship with his friend Bow and how they interact really show that Ryu is the compassionate but lawful good hero who often has to bail his friend out of trouble. He never talks, hell you barely get any choices to make for him, and yet he's a really kind and wonderful person. Ryu's kindness is forged by his personal struggles and the kindness he had shown to him. That is why he's a good person, he is not good for the sake of being good he is good cause he knows it is the right thing to do because his past and relations define him. Isaac doesn't have that, he could be any kid from that village for as much depth was given to him to justify who he is as a character.Quote:
You think Isaac is boring because he helps people. I find it pleasantly refreshing amongst all the psychotic jerks in the gaming industries these days. I find the "edgy dark antihero" trope that is dominating the market to be far more boring.
There are tons of reasons for Isaac to help people. Heck, he's basically an ambassador of magic to people who are completely mundane. And he's following in the footsteps of some magicians who go around absolutely destroying everything they come across. It's like someone following Magneto and trying to convince people that all mutants aren't bad. Maybe helping rescue some livelihoods will help.
I feel Persona 2, Suikoden II/Tactics, and Arc the Lad 2 handled it better. Just my opinion.Quote:
Isaac is a silent protagonist. We don't get to see a lot of direct characterization. That's why I actually adore the way the two games demonstrate characterization. Neither Isaac nor Felix speak in their respective games. Yet you can still get a great insight into what sort of people they are, where they place their priorities, and what they value just from how the games play out. For being a silent protagonist, you get a surprising amount of depth in Isaac's character.
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But all of this still just boils down to "it's the right thing to do". What is his reason for turning himself into the judges and trying to save the people of Muscadet? Does he know that it will get him access to Exodus? No. Does he know that he won't remain in prison forever and never get his friends back to St. Ivalice? No. He just knows that letting a village get enslaved and imprisoned because he chose to buck the system is wrong.
Skyblade, you have utterly missed the point of my argument and are too hung up on trying to defend your own moral code instead of seeing what my argument is really about, which is "where is the characterization?", shion gets it, read her post, I want context if I am going to understand and relate to a character. I understand why I would save the people, but why is the character doing it? I can't accept "cause it is the right thing to do" as an answer because I understand the conviction of that belief needs something to motivate it, whether it was a harsh past, or maybe strong moral figure in their life, or maybe because they don't know any better. I can't follow a shallow character who does the right thing because they were written to do the right thing, I want to know why they make their decisions. This isn't an attack on doing the right thing, this is an about making sure the player understand where the character is coming from when they do the right thing, to understand why they are that type of person. It is too easy for writers to simply say "he's good because I said so" that doesn't make them relatable that just shows the writer is lazy.Quote:
In Golden Sun, there's a part where you encounter some people near the river who have been transformed into trees. After you fight off the villains, they push the people over, and one of them is dangerously close to falling into the river. All you have to do is take two steps out of your way to use your Psynergy to rescue the person.
Or you could just walk on by, and then you later find out that one of them got washed away by the river and drowned. Because you didn't feel like being a goody two shoes.
So, yeah, if you can't sympathize with the person with magic actually taking two seconds to save someone's life just because he feels it's the right thing to do, I kind of think you're a jerk.
Thank you, someone gets it. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by shion
Or Montblanc, like most people, see someone confused and in trouble and just want to help them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoI'd be like Marche and highly suspicious, if I got a mysterious check in the mail for a ton of money I'd hold onto it until it's real owner showed up, not cash it in cause I think someone out there likes me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
True, but the player knows because we saw that the new Ivalice overwrote the real reality and we saw that Mewt's dream world had forced Cid's will to bend to Mewt's desire. Once Marche confronts all of them about the state of the world, all of them choose to reject it to fulfill there own desires.Quote:
They had no real way of knowing what happened. They certainly had no way of knowing that it had a cost to others (if indeed it did). Marche could very easily be the one refusing to face the fact that reality is simply not as stable as we might like to believe, at least early on in the story.
For me the main reason to understand that Dream Ivalice is false is because Montblanc and his entire Clan willingly help Marche with his goal, which tells me one of two things: a) Montblanc and by extension the people of Dream Ivalice are somewhat aware that their world is not the right reality, b) Montblanc, like Judgemaster Cid is compelled against his will by Marche's wishes to go home.
Also, Marche doesn't have access to player knowledge. Everything happened while he was asleep. So what the player knows is irrelevant (and, as I pointed out, the transition scene itself is incredibly deceptive). What's more, Marche doesn't confront anyone else about the world. Ritz confronts Marche about the world, and her suspicion that it's based on their town.
Um, we find out a ton about Isaac's background. All you have to do is actually pay attention and talk to the NPCs (and Mind Read them). You get a clear understanding of Vale, it's culture, what it values, Dora's perceptions, etcetera. It's pretty easy to understand what sort of culture/family Isaac grew up in and how that shaped him.Quote:
He is boring cause we get no real background of who he is. He's a nice kid with special powers trying to save the world. Let's compare him to Ryu from Breath of Fire II, who grew up with a caring father, a missing mother, a loving sister, one day wakes up to find they are all gone and is told they never existed. He teams up with a selfish but friendly orphan and the two escape his hometown and live their lives scraping for survival before the game opens up again to show they both grew up to be Rangers, people who help other people, they wish to do this cause their lives had been of one of hardship. Ryu also never speaks, he is also a silent protagonist but we get enough of a backstory to really understand where he is coming from, his relationship with his friend Bow and how they interact really show that Ryu is the compassionate but lawful good hero who often has to bail his friend out of trouble. He never talks, hell you barely get any choices to make for him, and yet he's a really kind and wonderful person. Ryu's kindness is forged by his personal struggles and the kindness he had shown to him. That is why he's a good person, he is not good for the sake of being good he is good cause he knows it is the right thing to do because his past and relations define him. Isaac doesn't have that, he could be any kid from that village for as much depth was given to him to justify who he is as a character.Quote:
You think Isaac is boring because he helps people. I find it pleasantly refreshing amongst all the psychotic jerks in the gaming industries these days. I find the "edgy dark antihero" trope that is dominating the market to be far more boring.
There are tons of reasons for Isaac to help people. Heck, he's basically an ambassador of magic to people who are completely mundane. And he's following in the footsteps of some magicians who go around absolutely destroying everything they come across. It's like someone following Magneto and trying to convince people that all mutants aren't bad. Maybe helping rescue some livelihoods will help.
Another game doing things better doesn't mean that this game did things bad.Quote:
I feel Persona 2, Suikoden II/Tactics, and Arc the Lad 2 handled it better. Just my opinion.Quote:
Isaac is a silent protagonist. We don't get to see a lot of direct characterization. That's why I actually adore the way the two games demonstrate characterization. Neither Isaac nor Felix speak in their respective games. Yet you can still get a great insight into what sort of people they are, where they place their priorities, and what they value just from how the games play out. For being a silent protagonist, you get a surprising amount of depth in Isaac's character.
Ok, in that case, go play Golden Sun again, and this time actually talk to the NPCs. Don't just rush off on your quest, explore Vale. Talk to the priests at the Sanctum, etcetera. You can learn a lot about how Isaac was brought up, and why he acts the way he does.Quote:
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But all of this still just boils down to "it's the right thing to do". What is his reason for turning himself into the judges and trying to save the people of Muscadet? Does he know that it will get him access to Exodus? No. Does he know that he won't remain in prison forever and never get his friends back to St. Ivalice? No. He just knows that letting a village get enslaved and imprisoned because he chose to buck the system is wrong.
Skyblade, you have utterly missed the point of my argument and are too hung up on trying to defend your own moral code instead of seeing what my argument is really about, which is "where is the characterization?", shion gets it, read her post, I want context if I am going to understand and relate to a character. I understand why I would save the people, but why is the character doing it? I can't accept "cause it is the right thing to do" as an answer because I understand the conviction of that belief needs something to motivate it, whether it was a harsh past, or maybe strong moral figure in their life, or maybe because they don't know any better. I can't follow a shallow character who does the right thing because they were written to do the right thing, I want to know why they make their decisions. This isn't an attack on doing the right thing, this is an about making sure the player understand where the character is coming from when they do the right thing, to understand why they are that type of person. It is too easy for writers to simply say "he's good because I said so" that doesn't make them relatable that just shows the writer is lazy.Quote:
In Golden Sun, there's a part where you encounter some people near the river who have been transformed into trees. After you fight off the villains, they push the people over, and one of them is dangerously close to falling into the river. All you have to do is take two steps out of your way to use your Psynergy to rescue the person.
Or you could just walk on by, and then you later find out that one of them got washed away by the river and drowned. Because you didn't feel like being a goody two shoes.
So, yeah, if you can't sympathize with the person with magic actually taking two seconds to save someone's life just because he feels it's the right thing to do, I kind of think you're a jerk.
Vale is built on a culture of protection and community. They believe their role is to guard the world from Alchemy by protecting Sol Sanctum. The theft of the Elemental Stars is the failure of their entire purpose. Isaac is charged with recovering the Stars by an entity that about 90% of them literally think is a god.
We know that Vale has a strong sense of community and helping people out in the wake of disasters (it's literally one of the first things they show us in the game). We know that several of the young villagers want to go out and explore the world. We know that Isaac is directly cautioned about how he presents himself, since he'll be representing Vale and Psynergy to the world.
There is a ton of characterization and backstory available.
Yes, yes, I just met some homeless guy spotting how this world isn't real and instead of calling the proper authorities, I'm going to call my friends up so we can help him to end the world. Even when it becomes clear the guy is right, I'm just going to go out of my way to help them knowing that doing so may blink myself out of existence. I hope my sarcasm isn't lost on you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Incorrect, it is important for the player to know this because it helps us to sympathize and understand that Marche is very much in the right. Also, while Marche wasn't the first to figure it out, he does confront the various characters about how they are using Dream Ivalice as a crutch to run away from their problems and live selfishly.Quote:
Also, Marche doesn't have access to player knowledge. Everything happened while he was asleep. So what the player knows is irrelevant (and, as I pointed out, the transition scene itself is incredibly deceptive). What's more, Marche doesn't confront anyone else about the world. Ritz confronts Marche about the world, and her suspicion that it's based on their town.
Also there is nothing deceptive about Dream Ivalice, we witness the world transform before our lives and we know that the characters unintentionally used the power to bend the world to their desires. Even Cid eventually realizes what has happened to him after he witnesses the real world again and chooses to leave Mewt cause he understands now that the world is not good for him. I think going from a world where my worst fear is getting a parking ticket or being late to work/school is a tad bit better than a world where I can be arrested for not following arbitrary rules imposed by an authoritarian government ruled by a selfish child or get badly injured and losing property cause the two local clans decided to fight over turf near my shop is kind of a big deal. It only doesn't seem like a big deal cause the magic of the book bends the peoples will and memories to fulfill the children's wishes.
It's just not up to par I'm afraid. I understand Vale and its history but not really Isaac, all you really learn about him is that he's stubborn (earth affinity joke) and he has always been an upright caring lad. That's not real characterization, that is an informed trait.Quote:
Um, we find out a ton about Isaac's background. All you have to do is actually pay attention and talk to the NPCs (and Mind Read them). You get a clear understanding of Vale, it's culture, what it values, Dora's perceptions, etcetera. It's pretty easy to understand what sort of culture/family Isaac grew up in and how that shaped him.
It means they didn't do it as good. :pQuote:
Another game doing things better doesn't mean that this game did things bad.
I am usually pretty good about talking to everyone, I just didn't feel it with this game. It is too overwhelmingly wholesome for my taste. I may give it another go cause my GF loves this series (though she would agree with me that Isaac is not as interesting as Felix) so it is not like I don't have it laying around here to check out again but I honestly didn't really like the characters or plot. It was too weak for me, but maybe I went in with too high of expectations since this is a series that people seem to love, so I may try again sometime down the road but it probably won't be anytime soon. I've got enough crap on my plate as it is gaming-wise.Quote:
Ok, in that case, go play Golden Sun again, and this time actually talk to the NPCs. Don't just rush off on your quest, explore Vale. Talk to the priests at the Sanctum, etcetera. You can learn a lot about how Isaac was brought up, and why he acts the way he does.
Vale is built on a culture of protection and community. They believe their role is to guard the world from Alchemy by protecting Sol Sanctum. The theft of the Elemental Stars is the failure of their entire purpose. Isaac is charged with recovering the Stars by an entity that about 90% of them literally think is a god.
We know that Vale has a strong sense of community and helping people out in the wake of disasters (it's literally one of the first things they show us in the game). We know that several of the young villagers want to go out and explore the world. We know that Isaac is directly cautioned about how he presents himself, since he'll be representing Vale and Psynergy to the world.
There is a ton of characterization and backstory available.
You do realize that Ivalice would pretty much collapse if authorities were called in for every crazy person, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoYes, yes, I just met some homeless guy spotting how this world isn't real and instead of calling the proper authorities, I'm going to call my friends up so we can help him to end the world. Even when it becomes clear the guy is right, I'm just going to go out of my way to help them knowing that doing so may blink myself out of existence. I hope my sarcasm isn't lost on you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Also, it never really becomes clear to anyone outside of the main group what happens. Heck, Babus probably gets more insight into the situation than any of the other clan members, and he still has no idea what was actually happening. To say "it became clear he was right" is a bit ridiculous when Marche basically never even brings up the subject to Montblanc.
It's important to the player, yes. It has absolutely no bearing on Marche's characterization. Marche cannot know how the world changed, because he did not see it. So he cannot use the knowledge of that change.Quote:
Incorrect, it is important for the player to know this because it helps us to sympathize and understand that Marche is very much in the right. Also, while Marche wasn't the first to figure it out, he does confront the various characters about how they are using Dream Ivalice as a crutch to run away from their problems and live selfishly.Quote:
Also, Marche doesn't have access to player knowledge. Everything happened while he was asleep. So what the player knows is irrelevant (and, as I pointed out, the transition scene itself is incredibly deceptive). What's more, Marche doesn't confront anyone else about the world. Ritz confronts Marche about the world, and her suspicion that it's based on their town.
Um, there is a lot deceptive about that transformation. For example: If the world is based off Mewt's desires, why were the other four anomalies brought in instead of being transformed? Specifically, why would Cid have been brought in when he was nowhere near the book and never read it? If the transformed clan members like Montblance retained some affinity for the real world, as you suggest, why do none of them actively recall it, when other characters do? Why do Lyle, Colin, and Guiness get brought back as monsters, when the other characters brought in retain their human identities? Why do none of the people either in Ivalice or in St. Ivalice recall the other world with the exception of the special five? If there was any residual affinity for St. Ivalice among the people of Ivalice, why do events which occur as a result of the blending of the worlds (specifically, the snow in Lutia) register as worthy of note?Quote:
Also there is nothing deceptive about Dream Ivalice, we witness the world transform before our lives and we know that the characters unintentionally used the power to bend the world to their desires. Even Cid eventually realizes what has happened to him after he witnesses the real world again and chooses to leave Mewt cause he understands now that the world is not good for him. I think going from a world where my worst fear is getting a parking ticket or being late to work/school is a tad bit better than a world where I can be arrested for not following arbitrary rules imposed by an authoritarian government ruled by a selfish child or get badly injured and losing property cause the two local clans decided to fight over turf near my shop is kind of a big deal. It only doesn't seem like a big deal cause the magic of the book bends the peoples will and memories to fulfill the children's wishes.
I could go on. In fact, I already did, and I know you've read my essays. I'm starting to wonder if you are really Wolf Kanno... :shifty:
Really? It's easy enough to explain most of Isaac's actions. Can you explain even half of Felix's? Why does he go through the quests at the Rocks? He literally does it just for the heck of it, with no knowledge of what Psynergy he'll get out of them or how it will help. Why does he go after the Great Gabomba's magic? Again, no real reason. Felix is apparently a completely aimless wanderer who has no set priorities, to the point that the party literally forgets about their primary adventure at one point ("oh, right, the Lighthouses!").Quote:
I am usually pretty good about talking to everyone, I just didn't feel it with this game. It is too overwhelmingly wholesome for my taste. I may give it another go cause my GF loves this series (though she would agree with me that Isaac is not as interesting as Felix) so it is not like I don't have it laying around here to check out again but I honestly didn't really like the characters or plot. It was too weak for me, but maybe I went in with too high of expectations since this is a series that people seem to love, so I may try again sometime down the road but it probably won't be anytime soon. I've got enough crap on my plate as it is gaming-wise.Quote:
Ok, in that case, go play Golden Sun again, and this time actually talk to the NPCs. Don't just rush off on your quest, explore Vale. Talk to the priests at the Sanctum, etcetera. You can learn a lot about how Isaac was brought up, and why he acts the way he does.
Vale is built on a culture of protection and community. They believe their role is to guard the world from Alchemy by protecting Sol Sanctum. The theft of the Elemental Stars is the failure of their entire purpose. Isaac is charged with recovering the Stars by an entity that about 90% of them literally think is a god.
We know that Vale has a strong sense of community and helping people out in the wake of disasters (it's literally one of the first things they show us in the game). We know that several of the young villagers want to go out and explore the world. We know that Isaac is directly cautioned about how he presents himself, since he'll be representing Vale and Psynergy to the world.
There is a ton of characterization and backstory available.
But, yeah, whatever. Play it again if you want. I really don't care. I find Isaac more interesting, and more relatable, and I found the nature of the characterization a pleasant change from the standard. Let's move on.
That right there kind of shows why Dream Ivalice is false. It could never function as a proper society and only does so becuase its run by the will of a handful of children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
It still doesn't change the fact that the revelations about the false reality are changing people to see Marche's point of view. Marche does explain the first time he meets Montblanc that he only knows Ivalice and its races through a video game. Later after the mission you meet Ritz, Montblanc suddenly knows that Marche is from another world, and seeing how Ritz is the one who figures out this Ivalice took over the real world, stating that they were still in St. Ivalice that was transformed into Dream Ivalice, it seems to me that Marche does actually find out the truth that the player has pre-knowledge of. So I am going to have to disagree.Quote:
Also, it never really becomes clear to anyone outside of the main group what happens. Heck, Babus probably gets more insight into the situation than any of the other clan members, and he still has no idea what was actually happening. To say "it became clear he was right" is a bit ridiculous when Marche basically never even brings up the subject to Montblanc
It's important to the player, yes. It has absolutely no bearing on Marche's characterization. Marche cannot know how the world changed, because he did not see it. So he cannot use the knowledge of that change.
.
Cid is there because him being the most respected figure in Ivalice is Mewt's desire and as Marche suggests when he confronts him about the illusion world, Cid wanted this as well. All the real people in Dream Ivalice wanted to be there which is why the book brought them. There may have been more but the scope of the game wasn't going to bother with it or it is more likely that Cid gets a pass because Mewt needed him specifically instead of just dreaming up some alternate father who wasn't Cid. The dream world fulfills all the kids desire so I don't feel it is Mewt alone who created the world it is just his connection to the book that gives him more power over it than the others.Quote:
Um, there is a lot deceptive about that transformation. For example: If the world is based off Mewt's desires, why were the other four anomalies brought in instead of being transformed? Specifically, why would Cid have been brought in when he was nowhere near the book and never read it? If the transformed clan members like Montblance retained some affinity for the real world, as you suggest, why do none of them actively recall it, when other characters do? Why do Lyle, Colin, and Guiness get brought back as monsters, when the other characters brought in retain their human identities? Why do none of the people either in Ivalice or in St. Ivalice recall the other world with the exception of the special five? If there was any residual affinity for St. Ivalice among the people of Ivalice, why do events which occur as a result of the blending of the worlds (specifically, the snow in Lutia) register as worthy of note?
As for others not realizing the world it is simply to keep up the illusion for the kids desire. The kids retain their memories because they created the world. Only Mewt forgets cause the real world is too painful for him and Cid forgets because it would run counter to Mewt's desire. The other three couldn't really enjoy what they got if they didn't have knowledge of what they had gained and if so this wouldn't have been a proper Lotus Eater Machine Trope if they were all mind wiped and thus there wouldn't be a plot. The rest of the world doesn't remember because there is no point in them knowing. Of course the limited shout outs to FFTA found in FFTA2 kind of reveal that Montblanc does remember Marche as he will call out his name if K.O. which may suggest that Dream Ivalice pulled in the real Ivalice and simply super imposed itself on St. Ivalice or vice versa. What this theory means is that the people of Ivalice may vague recollect the world isn't quite right because they know it is different from their own real world of True Ivalice. The bottomline is that in order to keep the Dream World alive the rest of the world must dream. We don't know if the people of St. Ivalice remember what happened. Many of them may have thought it was a dream, it's not like time worked straight seeing how there was no panic from losing several weeks or possibly years of time for the whole story to pan out. To them, Ivalice happened in a night.
Your theory became debunked the moment FFTA got connected to the actual Ivalice timeline instead of being a stand alone game. There are just too many inconsistencies now to rectify this.Quote:
I could go on. In fact, I already did, and I know you've read my essays. I'm starting to wonder if you are really Wolf Kanno... :shifty:
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. For me, the cast and plot were the weakest part of the games.Quote:
Really? It's easy enough to explain most of Isaac's actions. Can you explain even half of Felix's? Why does he go through the quests at the Rocks? He literally does it just for the heck of it, with no knowledge of what Psynergy he'll get out of them or how it will help. Why does he go after the Great Gabomba's magic? Again, no real reason. Felix is apparently a completely aimless wanderer who has no set priorities, to the point that the party literally forgets about their primary adventure at one point ("oh, right, the Lighthouses!").
But, yeah, whatever. Play it again if you want. I really don't care. I find Isaac more interesting, and more relatable, and I found the nature of the characterization a pleasant change from the standard. Let's move on.
There's actually way too many inconsistencies to accept things the way the games set them up, though. The connections just don't work. There are too many inconsistencies between FFTA's world and that of the rest of the Ivalice series. It's self contradictory in so many spots it's kind of ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
DEVELOPMENT!