Explanation for the ending of Final Fantasy 8

All right, I just finished Final Fantasy 8 and am quite confused as to what really happened at the end of the game. Somehow Squall gets lost on his way back to his time. Why is this? And then somehow Squall tells Edea about a timeline that exists for him, but couldn't possibly exist because Matron hasn't created the Seeds yet, so Squall wouldn't be there to begin with! Explanation? And then, squall collapses and Rinoa shows up. From here I don't know what's going on. Did both of them make it to the place they promised each other? And then in the video camera, it shows Rinoa standing on the balcony of Balamb Garden, apparently talking to herself o/ the camera just doesn't show Squall in the picture. I suppose what I'm asking is whether of not Squall is alive! Bah! 6,7,9,10 weren't nearly as confusing! Thanks in advance to any replys!

MrWhite

Um... I suggest watching the ending again. Squall was on the balcony. He and Rinoa kissed. It was all there.

Without reading WAY too much into it, as I'm sure a lot of folks will, turning over R=U stones, Cloud-- er... I mean, SQUALL went through that whole time compression crap again, there was a lot of stuff that just messed with his mind, he and Rinoa found their special place and all was happy.

You should know now, MrWhite, that VIII will never explain any paradoxes or general confusing crap that comes with it's 'Time Compression' stuff

Hey, if metaphysics people are hgard pressed to agree on a sensible explanation for temporal mechanics, how do you expect game designers to deal with that stuff?

Because of the liberally tossing around of the word 'fate' and Ellone's mentioning about the failure of her plans to change the past, I would say FFVIII goes with 'one timeline' argument. There is ONE timeline, and Edea ALWAYS had Squall telling her about SeeD. (but.... Edea told Chid, and Cid told Squall and Squall told Edea and... HELP!)

Regarding the dream. Yes, according to us that is basically Squall going through time compression and seeing that Rinoa will turn into Ultimecia. (that's why he shed a tear. You KNOW it's gotta be bad for Squall to actually cry) Us supporters think we see (and the detractors deny) that Rinoa's face turns into Ulti's in the scene, and her face is rather often put next to her face. There's still an open thread on this discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

And yes, eventually he's still there and kisses Rinoa. (eventhough, according to me, he knows he's gonna lose her someday)

Well the designers of Chrono Trigger handled it quite well. I think they should have skipped the time compression stuff and found another plot if they werent going to be detailed in their explinations. Though I'm probably very biased.

Here's what i got from the ending. squall and the others were sen tinto time compression. squall, being the more reserved of the bunch, was seperated from the others. he witnesses Edae recieving her powers and faints or something. He then dreams the whole part where he is walking, and it turns out that ultimecia's attempt at time compression failed, since she was so weak, and they came back into the real world where her castle would be. right in the field where Squall and Rinoa made their promise. that is where rinoa found him, and they live happily ever after,
(well, unless you consider fanfictions and the rumored FFVIII-2 lol) BTW, i support the Q=U Theory

i explain all this in my fanfic too. it is called "And..."

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Well the designers of Chrono Trigger handled it quite well. I think they should have skipped the time compression stuff and found another plot if they werent going to be detailed in their explinations. Though I'm probably very biased.

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Hmm, I LIKE Chrono Trigger. Somehow I like it better then any of the final fantasies (which is odd, as I'm not THAT impressed with the SNES generation) but IMHO it doesn't concern itself much with logical consistency, concentrating on good clean fun.

When Marle 'kills her own grandmother'so to speak, the suggestion is that there's one timeline, and you can alter it.

On the other hand, on other occasions, whatever the heroes do ends up causing what happened in teh first place anyway. Magus being defeated, The Reptites defeated...

Also, at the end it gets really confusing. With Doan, who should be gone, as I can't imagine the future being just the same with the day of Lavos averted, unless you're gonna start messing with parallel universes.

Besides, I happen to think FF VIII has dealt quite well with the time travelling stuff....Sure you get paradoxes, but CT has those too. (If Marle was never born, then how did she interfere with herself being born in the first place?) Actually, FFVIII avoids the paradoxes, as nobody has succesfully altered the past at all. (Ellone tried to keep Laguna with Raine, Ultimecia tried to destroy SeeD that was destined to defeat her)

And they did explain paralell universes (in Cross, at least), and they did explain it all. I found it all to be explained very nicely, while I felt that VIII was just sort of thrown together. *shrugs*

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Originally posted by TheAbominatrix
And they did explain paralell universes (in Cross, at least), and they did explain it all. I found it all to be explained very nicely, while I felt that VIII was just sort of thrown together. *shrugs*

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Well of course Time got thrown together that was sorta the po....

OH like that. Bah, to each their own. Except the 'we're all from the same orphanage'scene I kinda liked it.

http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2003/q2/050503dx.html

This should give you a strong definition of FF VIII's ending.
I was even shocked at some of the stuff it had. Haha.

I think & i'm not sure of this but anyone out there that is wiilling to answer please do so.

If Squall died or not I'm not sure but could it be possibles that Squall is trap in time compression.

I know is not realistic but because the ending is confusing who knows?

please let me know

woah, necromancy much?

It's possible that Squall at the end was a ghost. Rinoa pointing at the star to express her love in the memory of Squall.

I doubt that. Squall looks solid enough, and the music doesn't jive with your sombre interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

It's possible that Squall at the end was a ghost. Rinoa pointing at the star to express her love in the memory of Squall.

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They touched, so he's not a ghost (not by my definition anyway) nice theory though.

I did think Sqaull was sort of "dead" - so much so in the state he can be brought back to life. I actually had a thread about my theories on what was happening on the ending (one of the few theories I had the guts to upload.) I dunno if it's still on here.

What`s odd is that Squall wasn`t visible during the last camcorder FMV. At the end of that camcorder FMV; you only see Angelo sitting and then Rinoa pointing at the star and staring at invisible Squall (but he was supposed to be behind the ceiling). After that FMV, Rinoa repeated pointing at the star and then Squall shows up.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

What`s odd is that Squall wasn`t visible during the last camcorder FMV. At the end of that camcorder FMV; you only see Angelo sitting and then Rinoa pointing at the star and staring at invisible Squall (but he was supposed to be behind the ceiling). After that FMV, Rinoa repeated pointing at the star and then Squall shows up.

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I don't think he would have been in view as there was a wall there (I'll have to check to be sure) - of course if he had been seen then it would have given away the ending.

Squall is not invisible! All you can see is Rinoa because there is a PILLAR blocking anything on the right of her. And Squall not being at the party is not exactly strange. He is still a loner-type guy, just not as bad. And, why would they be having a PARTY if their leader had just died? And if, for some strange reason, they were in fact having a party, why were all of Squall's friends

a) at the party
b) happy.

Especially RINOA! So, unless Squall's friends all secretly hated him, and Rinoa was only dating him because she was paid good money, it would be highly, massively, extremely, excessively unusual for them to be having a party so soon after he died.

Simply, After the team defeated Ulti they went back into time compression, the rest of the team got back ok but squall fell into a time loop and went back to the time when Edea recieved her powers from Ulti.

Squall then tells Edea that he is a SeeD which was her idea and SeeD defeat the sorceress.

This is where Edea gets the idea of SeeD and SeeD fighting sorceress. She tells Cid and he becomes obsessed and starts the school.

And as for squall being dead... Rinoa used a phoenix down :D

The idea is that the last camcorder FMV only contained visible images of Selphie, Quistis, Irvine, Cid, Matron, Zell, Aneglo and Rinoa which all were used a lot in the story. Squall too but he, being the main character, wasn't visible in the FMV as he's supposed to be behind the ceiling. I think that Squall should have been in that FMV more often ...

It's just strange because he obviously fainted before the FMV ... that got new players thinking "Oh, so he's dead?" ... after that, when they viewed the last camcorder FMV, they would say "Hmm... Squall isn't there, so he must be ... ??". Then Squall finally showed up in the very final FMV. I remember when I first played the game, it gave me a relief knowing that Squall didn't actually die.

I think Square intentionally did that. Just like what they did to the Edea incident -- new players say "So Edea is the bad guy?" -- later in the game -- they would say "Ahh, so that was Ultimecia after all ... "

the 'Squall fainting' event cannot be proven as we weren't given information about what exactly happened after the event -- prior to the party camcorder FMV. I noticed that Selphie waved at Angelo as the dog was running to sit down and started watching Rinoa.

Remember at Balamb Garden, your job was to look for Cid, you go to the car park, you saw Cid -- it wasn't actually himself -- it was just a cloning(ghost) device. Maybe Rinoa used this device at the end of the game to represent Squall to give the whole story a happy ending -- expressing her love in the memory of Squall.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

The idea is that the last camcorder FMV only contained visible images of Selphie, Quistis, Irvine, Cid, Matron, Zell, Aneglo and Rinoa which all were used a lot in the story. Squall too but he, being the main character, wasn't visible in the FMV as he's supposed to be behind the ceiling. I think that Squall should have been in that FMV more often ...

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The guy is a loner. He doesn't like parties. So, no, it's not that strange.

EDIT: At the first ball, where he meets Rinoa, he is found by Quistis at the exact same balcony. So, it really is unsurprising.
Story-wise, it shows how much Squall had transformed. Before he knew Rinoa, he sat at that balcony by himself, being most depressed. At the end, he was at that balcony, happy, and with the girl that he loves. How romantic...

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Remember at Balamb Garden, your job was to look for Cid, you go to the car park, you saw Cid -- it wasn't actually himself -- it was just a cloning(ghost) device. Maybe Rinoa used this device at the end of the game to represent Squall to give the whole story a happy ending -- expressing her love in the memory of Squall.

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Firstly, that would be creepy & strange & weird. Who does that?
Secondly, when she kisses Squall, she leans into him - hence he must be solid to support her.

Basically, the clearest sign that Squall is definitely there is in how the video ends. Why would Selphie be creeping up to that balcony to record something if she didn't think Squall was there and that something was going to happen?

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Originally Posted by Serapy

It's just strange because he obviously fainted before the FMV ... that got new players thinking "Oh, so he's dead?" ... after that, when they viewed the last camcorder FMV, they would say "Hmm... Squall isn't there, so he must be ... ??". Then Squall finally showed up in the very final FMV. I remember when I first played the game, it gave me a relief knowing that Squall didn't actually die.

I think Square intentionally did that. Just like what they did to the Edea incident -- new players say "So Edea is the bad guy?" -- later in the game -- they would say "Ahh, so that was Ultimecia after all ..."

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In my theory - I actually thought Squall was "dead" but only enough so he could be revived, if you get what I mean - sort of like how in real life when someone drowns they are already "dead" but can be revived - I don't understand it fully myself.

Actually Squall is dead. Squall you see during ending is just Irvine dressed as Squall so he can score Rinoa.

Its is strange since Irvine could get Selphie and Rinoa ( and Quistis) same time but on the other hand he is also know as Pervine.

I think time compressed and left the old "demension" in ruin. This explains why Seifer is back alive and fishing, and Squall in Kingdom Hearts (Leon) was said that the world he came from was left in darkness. So Ulti really succeded in her plans, right?

Perhaps there were two endings forced into one...

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Serapy

The idea is that the last camcorder FMV only contained visible images of Selphie, Quistis, Irvine, Cid, Matron, Zell, Aneglo and Rinoa which all were used a lot in the story. Squall too but he, being the main character, wasn't visible in the FMV as he's supposed to be behind the ceiling. I think that Squall should have been in that FMV more often ...

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The guy is a loner. He doesn't like parties. So, no, it's not that strange.

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If he actually didn`t like parties, then he wouldn`t be in the party FMV in the beginning of the game. Also, he was clearly visible in most of the FMVs prior to this one. Which is strange.

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EDIT: At the first ball, where he meets Rinoa, he is found by Quistis at the exact same balcony. So, it really is unsurprising.
Story-wise, it shows how much Squall had transformed. Before he knew Rinoa, he sat at that balcony by himself, being most depressed. At the end, he was at that balcony, happy, and with the girl that he loves. How romantic...

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Rinoa using the device to express the memory of Squall is romantic either.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Firstly, that would be creepy & strange & weird. Who does that?

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SquareSoft, duh.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Secondly, when she kisses Squall, she leans into him - hence he must be solid to support her.

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You can tell that just by looking at pixel? No, that`s impossible unless you're a designer of the FF8`s team. If they made FF8 more exicting in terms of hard core plot, chances are that they have made things more subtle.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Basically, the clearest sign that Squall is definitely there is in how the video ends.

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No, it`s to show you that the story is getting repeated when you start over again.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Why would Selphie be creeping up to that balcony to record something if she didn't think Squall was there and that something was going to happen?

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Actually, no. Selphie saw Angelo running down to the balcony in the first place, and then she saw Rinoa. That`s when she started recording. Why wouldn`t you record when your friend`s dog was going to greet him in a public place?

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Serapy

The idea is that the last camcorder FMV only contained visible images of Selphie, Quistis, Irvine, Cid, Matron, Zell, Aneglo and Rinoa which all were used a lot in the story. Squall too but he, being the main character, wasn't visible in the FMV as he's supposed to be behind the ceiling. I think that Squall should have been in that FMV more often ...

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The guy is a loner. He doesn't like parties. So, no, it's not that strange.

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If he actually didn`t like parties, then he wouldn`t be in the party FMV in the beginning of the game. Also, he was clearly visible in most of the FMVs prior to this one. Which is strange.

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As far as I'm aware, in Liberi Fatali, there is no party. If you mean the SeeD graduation ball - it is the SeeD graduation ball. He is obliged to go there. And, if you recall, after the dancing FMV with Rinoa, he goes and stands outside at the same balcony. Oh wait, I mention it in the point you quote next - pity you chose not to address it then.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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EDIT: At the first ball, where he meets Rinoa, he is found by Quistis at the exact same balcony. So, it really is unsurprising.
Story-wise, it shows how much Squall had transformed. Before he knew Rinoa, he sat at that balcony by himself, being most depressed. At the end, he was at that balcony, happy, and with the girl that he loves. How romantic...

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Rinoa using the device to express the memory of Squall is romantic either.

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No, not romantic. Sick and disturbed more likely.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Firstly, that would be creepy & strange & weird. Who does that?

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SquareSoft, duh.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Secondly, when she kisses Squall, she leans into him - hence he must be solid to support her.

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You can tell that just by looking at pixel? No, that`s impossible unless you're a designer of the FF8`s team. If they made FF8 more exicting in terms of hard core plot, chances are that they have made things more subtle.

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I just watched the final video now. And in it, Squall clearly pulls Rinoa by the hand to kiss her. So, if Rinoa is being pulled, that means some force is being applied on her hand. And this means that it can not be a hologram.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Basically, the clearest sign that Squall is definitely there is in how the video ends.

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No, it`s to show you that the story is getting repeated when you start over again.

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Seeing that this was part of a larger point of mine (continued below), I will address this there.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Why would Selphie be creeping up to that balcony to record something if she didn't think Squall was there and that something was going to happen?

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Actually, no. Selphie saw Angelo running down to the balcony in the first place, and then she saw Rinoa. That`s when she started recording. Why wouldn`t you record when your friend`s dog was going to greet him in a public place?

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I think, if one reads the last sentence clearly, this is a disproof of your own argument. But anyway, I just watched the final video. Before the video cuts, Selphie is gesticulating wildly at the camera-holder (presumably Irvine) to go and shoot what's happening on the balcony. So, unless Selphie wants the entire world to know about Rinoa's strange holographic fantasies (and seeing that she's a friend of Rinoa's, one should discount this possibility), one has to conclude that Squall is on the balcony with her, and Selphie wants to get them kissing on video.

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Originally Posted by neokeymaster

woah, necromancy much?

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Yes, but I'll keep this one open.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Serapy

The idea is that the last camcorder FMV only contained visible images of Selphie, Quistis, Irvine, Cid, Matron, Zell, Aneglo and Rinoa which all were used a lot in the story. Squall too but he, being the main character, wasn't visible in the FMV as he's supposed to be behind the ceiling. I think that Squall should have been in that FMV more often ...

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The guy is a loner. He doesn't like parties. So, no, it's not that strange.

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If he actually didn`t like parties, then he wouldn`t be in the party FMV in the beginning of the game. Also, he was clearly visible in most of the FMVs prior to this one. Which is strange.

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As far as I'm aware, in Liberi Fatali, there is no party. If you mean the SeeD graduation ball - it is the SeeD graduation ball. He is obliged to go there. And, if you recall, after the dancing FMV with Rinoa, he goes and stands outside at the same balcony. Oh wait, I mention it in the point you quote next - pity you chose not to address it then.

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Squall was usually visible in most of the FMVs of the entire game. He wasn`t visible in the second-final FMV, which is my point.

If Squall was obliged to attend the ball party, then would you claim that he was also obliged to attend the Ultimecia`s desertion party at the end of the game? If this is the case, then there`s no reason for Squall to become invisible in the camcorder FMV.
You have to consider that Squall adapted himself during the whole game. He was a bit more emo in the beginning, but later in the game, he`s better.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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EDIT: At the first ball, where he meets Rinoa, he is found by Quistis at the exact same balcony. So, it really is unsurprising.
Story-wise, it shows how much Squall had transformed. Before he knew Rinoa, he sat at that balcony by himself, being most depressed. At the end, he was at that balcony, happy, and with the girl that he loves. How romantic...

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Rinoa using the device to express the memory of Squall is romantic either.

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No, not romantic. Sick and disturbed more likely.

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*Rinoa casts the clone device and transforms it into Squall*
*They greet with each other, both looking happy more than before*
*She casts the finger sign symbolism, and then hugging with each other , this is like a goodbye*
*the game ends*

Hmm, I wouldn`t call that sick and disturbing. It just shows that she missed Squall dearly.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Firstly, that would be creepy & strange & weird. Who does that?

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SquareSoft, duh.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Secondly, when she kisses Squall, she leans into him - hence he must be solid to support her.

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You can tell that just by looking at pixel? No, that`s impossible unless you're a designer of the FF8`s team. If they made FF8 more exicting in terms of hard core plot, chances are that they have made things more subtle.

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I just watched the final video now. And in it, Squall clearly pulls Rinoa by the hand to kiss her. So, if Rinoa is being pulled, that means some force is being applied on her hand. And this means that it can not be a hologram.

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You don`t get my point, again. FF8 is a non-reality game (pixel), that`s why it`s impossible to prove whether was Squall real or not at the end of the game (also due to the fact not enough information were given). This gave SquareSoft the huge advantage to trick us!

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Basically, the clearest sign that Squall is definitely there is in how the video ends.

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No, it`s to show you that the story is getting repeated when you start over again.

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Seeing that this was part of a larger point of mine (continued below), I will address this there.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Why would Selphie be creeping up to that balcony to record something if she didn't think Squall was there and that something was going to happen?

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Actually, no. Selphie saw Angelo running down to the balcony in the first place, and then she saw Rinoa. That`s when she started recording. Why wouldn`t you record when your friend`s dog was going to greet him in a public place?

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I think, if one reads the last sentence clearly, this is a disproof of your own argument.

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Um, how was it a disproof? I used the "Why wouldn`t you record when your [...]" as an example to show that Selphie obviously had an incentive to tell the camera man to record the incident.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

But anyway, I just watched the final video. Before the video cuts, Selphie is gesticulating wildly at the camera-holder (presumably Irvine) to go and shoot what's happening on the balcony. So, unless Selphie wants the entire world to know about Rinoa's strange holographic fantasies (and seeing that she's a friend of Rinoa's, one should discount this possibility), one has to conclude that Squall is on the balcony with her, and Selphie wants to get them kissing on video.

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No, no, no.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1418/94639568ox0.gif

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/5527/46688682ls3.gif

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/825/87915713ds6.gif

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/3206/92892687td4.gif

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4041/95496281ls7.gif

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/7110/74556915bw1.gif

I have to say, Serapy is a much better troll than Future Esthar.

You're starting to resemble this serapy:

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/...om_e1bb2a4.jpg
"Oh my god! I'm a tomato!"

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I have to say, Serapy is a much better troll than Future Esthar.

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Neither Serapy and FE are trolls. They are just members who enjoy theories (like me) and have the strength to post them (unlike me), it's nice to interpret things originally, and some of their theories make a lot of sense to me.

Trolls deliberatly cause trouble within the forum and are genuingly a lot more offensive to others.

Note: If your comment was a light-hearted joke, then that's ok.;)

Ak and Sir Bahaumt: Your comments here are what's trollish.

Fine, sorry, but the point I'm trying to put across is that I'm tired of the ridiculous theories around this game. The first few were funny, fun to debunk, but the fact is that if he would even believe one of his theories he would have to have an IQ lower than 70.

Which leads me to believe that he doesn't believe in them himself, which then brings me to my main point:

These threads in itself is Trolling.

But you're the enforcer here, so I'll do as I'm told, as always.

You could just...you know...not read them. If they bother you. :|

I don't believe that Aerith's Knight was actually insulting Serapy as a whole, just this thread. Didn't you really mean to say this AK?

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Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight

This thread is starting to resemble this serapy:

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/...om_e1bb2a4.jpg
"Oh my god! I'm a tomato!"

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And I must agree that this photo does sum up my feelings towards this theory. Just because you don't see Squall in the homemade video does not mean he is not at the party. Seeing that the battery cut and the timer on the video, it would seem that they had been filming for a while. So, this theory is basically based on what is 2 minutes of video footage, completely ignoring what happens throughout the game.

And it also appears to defy the laws of physics. A holographic device does not have mass and therefore cannot apply force on another object. And here is photographic evidence of Squall pulling Rinoa towards him.

Attachment 29562

Attachment 29563

Attachment 29564

Apart from this, one has to take into account the first FMV that one sees when finishing the game. Here is Rinoa when she thinks Squall is dead:

Attachment 29565

Look, unhappy face. :cry:

Then she hugs him, and the clouds unfurl, and they leave the horrible place and arrive at the nice friendly field by the orphanage. And then Rinoa looks down on him, and she has:

Attachment 29566

HAPPY FACE :)

So, I doubt she'd suddenly have happy face if he was dead, would she?

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Just because you don't see Squall in the homemade video does not mean he is not at the party.

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Which is an assumption but the fact still remains that he was invisible in the whole camcorder scene, except Rinoa.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Seeing that the battery cut and the timer on the video, it would seem that they had been filming for a while. So, this theory is basically based on what is 2 minutes of video footage

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The thing is that the battery flat indicator exactly appeared when Rinoa is casting her finger sign symbolism. I`ve re-checked the frames to make sure.
I was thinking about it today, so I`ve concluded that it`s to emphasise the symbolism that Rinoa was using ...

Anyway
The camcorder scene was part of the semi-final FMV.
The entire FMV is 7 minutes and 52 seconds long.
The camcorder scene is 2 minutes and 49 seconds long.

It would be kind of unnecessary for SquareSoft to extend the camcorder scene anyway.

Therefore, everything disclosed in that FMV is important to acknowledge because, obviously, the ending of any story is usually crucial. That, of course, applies in this case.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

completely ignoring what happens throughout the game.

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Enlighten me. As far as I know, it`s impossible to tell what actually happened to Squall after the 'Rinoa approaching unconscious Squall on the flower side' scene. Afterward, we get to view the Seifer scene.

Obviously, you would assume that he got revived and that he being the real Squall to publicly meet Rinoa at the end. However, you have to consider why SquareSoft didn`t inform us about what actually happened to Squall after that 'flower field' scene.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

And it also appears to defy the laws of physics. A holographic device does not have mass and therefore cannot apply force on another object.

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The laws of physics used Final Fantasy VIII is quite different when compared to our reality, though. The differences are obviously time influences, magic, etc.

In your first walkthrough at the car park, you probably thought that image was the actual Cid, until when some student came and said that it was just a clone device. Yes? SquareSoft initially wanted you to believe that it was really him in the first place. So, it`s possible that SquareSoft used the same scenario with Squall at the end... due to that excuse and most of all, not enough information wasn`t given --

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

http://forums.eyesonff.com/attachmen...-untitled2.jpg

HAPPY FACE :)

So, I doubt she'd suddenly have happy face if he was dead, would she?

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Hmm, I`m pretty sure that the face you posted doesn`t look like a happy face at all, more like a curious/semi-sad face. Still, her expression is not strong enough to show that he`s alive. Who wouldn`t look at the face of a dead person after it has passed away in a second?

The desert island where Squall was standing on. He collapsed and he`s still on that island ... So when Rinoa came over, a few second later; he died, the island disappeared and everything went back to normal.
Why? If he`s dead, there`s no reason for him to be still on the desert island. The whole desert island was just an illusion.

Ironically, Squall dying scene is in the same FMV as Laguna visiting the grave of Raine. Same date and fmv? That`s strange.

Before Ultimecia`s fight, Laguna told the party to think of each other strongly (friendship, memories, love, etc) when dealing with certain situations. I'm assuming that you have to be conscious to think like that in order to keep 100% conscious and not become lost. Well, unfortunately, it was kinda too late for Squall. Because, if you become unconscious, I don`t think you will have enough energy to think of friendship, memories and love strongly.
So ... he became unconscious, for god`s know how long.
I blame Ellone for that part. If she didn`t leave Squall in the first place, then maybe Squall would have became different.

Anyway, one thing I just found out today:

At the end of the camcorder FMV, where Rinoa was using her figner sign symbolism and then she used that symbolism again in the next FMV. I gave it a thought today... At first I thought it was the exact same motion (1st finger and 2nd finger) and that the 2nd finger was meant to be repeated for the purpose of showing Squall, but after finding out today, it apparently wasn`t.

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/436...erenceshr7.gif

Both shots took place when she casts the symbolism *I`ve made sure that the frames are accurate to match*
Both shots are from different angles but look carefully.
I'll give you one answer: in Shot 1, you can clearly see her teeth and in Shot 2, her teeth isn`t displayed and even in the whole final FMV (not that camcorder one.)

Any explanation on this one? I think I have one but I probably will update it later, so here goes:

During the development process of FF8, the developers set the camcorder FMV as the very final FMV as accorded to the script. However, after undergoing testing to make sure everything is working as intended, they have realised something missing... so then they have decided to add the game a better ending, making Squall appear... to satisfy players more. Because they didn`t want the same thing to happen to FF8 from FF7 (Aerith dying). They add the image of Squall in a new FMV and polish the motion of Rinoa. Polish Rinoa? Why not? They have polished the look of Squall in the final release, I guess because the look of Squall in Trial wasn`t appealing.

I don`t know, there could be many possibilities e.g. time paradox ... such as influence from time compression.

Squall was not some freak vision of Rinoa in the ending, he was perfectly alive and kicking.

I mean, if he were dead, why were all his friends celebrating so joyously? Ok, they beat Ultimecia, but Squall was also the leader of the SeeD's at that point so they would have certainly been a bit more sombre about it, not partying without a care in the world. The reason Square withhold showing Squall until the very last possible moment is for dramatic tension. They know that the player will be wondering what happened in the flower field, so they keep you on your toes about whether or not her survived. Then in the very end they reveal him to you, showing that he is alive.

This is an incredibly common device in films and tv etc. and something Square have done several times before and since in the exact same way. The camcorder running out of batteries before Selphie moves into position to show Squall is just another added bit of teasing here. The finger movement by Rinoa we see in the very end is the same one we saw on the camcorder, just from another angle. The teeth being shown was just a tiny muckup on Square's side. Square is human too you know, every tiny mistake is not necessarily a deep clue.

The idea that Rinoa used a clone device is utterly absurd. There's absolutely nothing in the game indicating that such a device even exists (the Cid 'clone' was not shown to be able to physically interact as has been pointed out) nor is there anything indicating that she used one. Everything, including the music and general atmosphere indicate Squall was real.

The fact of the matter is that you can't even give one single piece of evidence towards your 'theory' which doesn't amount to "we don't have enough information".

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Squall was not some freak vision of Rinoa in the ending, he was perfectly alive and kicking.

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Well, Rinoa was a sorceress. So was Ultimecia. Ultimecia was insanely mad, wasn`t she? Right, so if Rinoa and Ultimecia were in the same family, there`s a chance that Rinoa can be crazy at certain times too.

Wasn`t Hyne crazy too? I mean, it must have taken him the guts to cut himself, tearing his parts off ... sacrificing himself.

As for Squall being alive at the end, well that`s an assumption.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I mean, if he were dead, why were all his friends celebrating so joyously? Ok, they beat Ultimecia, but Squall was also the leader of the SeeD's at that point so they would have certainly been a bit more sombre about it, not partying without a care in the world.

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Which is a valid point. But consider this: if time gets skipped occasionally during the FMV. I.e. we didn`t get to view what happened to Squall after the flower field scene and he somehow appeared at the end = so we assume that time gets skipped. There are other things that get skipped as well.

So, how much time did it take from the flower field scene to the Seifer`s scene in reality? Approximately 1 minute? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month?

And how much time did it take from the previous scenes to the party scene?

My point is that if a friend of yours died for something he loved doing, then perhaps ... let`s say 1 month later since his death, you would be feeling better, not exactly sombre but better. It`s not like the co party went partying after the day of Ultimecia`s defeat, right?

If I recall correctly, Seifer was injured not too long before the entrance of Ultimecia`s, so how long did he get better? Who took him to a doctor? That must have taken some time.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The reason Square withhold showing Squall until the very last possible moment is for dramatic tension. They know that the player will be wondering what happened in the flower field, so they keep you on your toes about whether or not her survived. Then in the very end they reveal him to you, showing that he is alive.

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Yes, the same thing happened with Edea-Ultimecia. At first, players were introduced to Edea, we all thought that Edea was the main villain of the game, right? Until later in the game, we just found out that it wasn`t actually Edea who made certain things happen, it was after all Ultimecia. And that Edea was Matron who raised the co party.

Same thing could be applied to Squall at the end, which I agreed. However, consider:

1) This game contains quite many MacGuffins, Squall at the end could be one because not enough information were given (his health and the time differences of each scene in the FMV.)
2) There are indications that something will happen in the future timelines. So, that`s another thing Square wanted us to think about. Asking for evidence is meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

This is an incredibly common device in films and tv etc. and something Square have done several times before and since in the exact same way.

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If Square has done something like this before, then why are the other FFs more clear? There`s a good chance that FF8 was just an experiment by Square.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The camcorder running out of batteries before Selphie moves into position to show Squall is just another added bit of teasing here. The finger movement by Rinoa we see in the very end is the same one we saw on the camcorder, just from another angle.

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The flat battery indicator and the casting time of Rinoa`s finger sign symbolism exactly appeared at the same time. I think it`s something to do with symbolism (I made a thread about it back then.) You see her finger sign so many times in the game = too many coincidences = likely to have some meaning.

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The teeth being shown was just a tiny muckup on Square's side. Square is human too you know, every tiny mistake is not necessarily a deep clue.

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How can it be a mistake? Why didn`t they just ... like ... copy the animation of Rinoa from the camcorder scene and then paste it into the final scene?

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The idea that Rinoa used a clone device is utterly absurd. There's absolutely nothing in the game indicating that such a device even exists (the Cid 'clone' was not shown to be able to physically interact as has been pointed out)

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But this clone device does exist, sure, it didn`t tell us whether does it have the ability to physically interact or not. Being said that, it doesn`t outright the fact that it can`t physically interact due to lack of information.

If only Square told us more information about what happened to Squall and R=U. These information are very crucial, even Square knows this.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

nor is there anything indicating that she used one. Everything, including the music and general atmosphere indicate Squall was real.

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Well, we don`t exactly know what happened in the FMV`s timeline. Anything can happen, no evidence required.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The fact of the matter is that you can't even give one single piece of evidence towards your 'theory' which doesn't amount to "we don't have enough information".

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Um, I`ve just posted events from the game (which are evidence), and I`ve made a interpretation/speculation of those events. If I had evidence for my interpretation/speculation, then it becomes entirely fact. This is why it`s a theory.

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Well, Rinoa was a sorceress. So was Ultimecia. Ultimecia was insanely mad, wasn`t she? Right, so if Rinoa and Ultimecia were in the same family, there`s a chance that Rinoa can be crazy at certain times too.

Wasn`t Hyne crazy too? I mean, it must have taken him the guts to cut himself, tearing his parts off ... sacrificing himself.

As for Squall being alive at the end, well that`s an assumption.

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There's no evidence that Rinoa and Ultimecia are in the same family, nor that Hyne was crazy (the story of him cutting off his skin is probably allegorical and not necessarily 100% fact). In other words you are saying "it might be possible because we don't have enough information".

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Which is a valid point. But consider this: if time gets skipped occasionally during the FMV. I.e. we didn`t get to view what happened to Squall after the flower field scene and he somehow appeared at the end = so we assume that time gets skipped. There are other things that get skipped as well.

So, how much time did it take from the flower field scene to the Seifer`s scene in reality? Approximately 1 minute? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month?

And how much time did it take from the previous scenes to the party scene?

My point is that if a friend of yours died for something he loved doing, then perhaps ... let`s say 1 month later since his death, you would be feeling better, not exactly sombre but better. It`s not like the co party went partying after the day of Ultimecia`s defeat, right?

If I recall correctly, Seifer was injured not too long before the entrance of Ultimecia`s, so how long did he get better? Who took him to a doctor? That must have taken some time.

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Again all you are saying is "we don't have enough information so anything could be true".

More to the point though, when a character dies in an FF game, Square have ALWAYS made a big point about it, showing the reactions of other characters. If they wanted us to think he was dead they wouldn't have shown a celebratory victory showing everyone totally happy. Squall might have been dead for a week or so after the Garden party (why would they wait longer to celebrate?) but then it's likely they would still have had some sort of commemoration for Squall. If they wanted us to think he was dead they wouldn't skip the commemoration and then show him appearing alive. Square might have been ambiguous in other FF's but never misleading.

However the main issue here is that your entire argument is "we don't have enough information". I'll explain at the end why that means this theory is worthless.

Quote:

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1) This game contains quite many MacGuffins, Squall at the end could be one because not enough information were given (his health and the time differences of each scene in the FMV.)
2) There are indications that something will happen in the future timelines. So, that`s another thing Square wanted us to think about. Asking for evidence is meaningless.

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You seem to be confused about what a MacGuffin is. A MacGuffin is something which is used to advance the plot without the details of it being too important (Time compression would be the best FF8 example). Squall appearing at the end, dead or alive, would not be a MacGuffin. The plot is over when you see him! Squall being dead would not be similar to anything Square has ever done. As I said, they have at most been ambiguous, never misleading.

Whatever indications for the future there are none of them imply that Squall is dead at the end of the game. Asking for evidence is hardly meaningless. I don't mean mathematical proof mind you, but evidence as in 'arguments that aren't based on lack of information' which is the only argument you are using.

Quote:

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If Square has done something like this before, then why are the other FFs more clear? There`s a good chance that FF8 was just an experiment by Square.

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Why is that a good chance? Also, the other FF's are not more or less clear. Consider FF9:

(SPOILER)Square do the exact same thing with Zidane as with Squall. They make it out as if he is dead, then leave you hanging for a long time in the ending not revealing him until the very last moment. The setup is literally identical to FF8. FF8 is not less clear than this.

Quote:

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The flat battery indicator and the casting time of Rinoa`s finger sign symbolism exactly appeared at the same time. I think it`s something to do with symbolism (I made a thread about it back then.) You see her finger sign so many times in the game = too many coincidences = likely to have some meaning.

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It's just Square teasing the viewer. They know you're wondering if Squall is out there too, so 'coincidentally' the camcorder runs out before you can see. In any case, 'symbolism' here won't be evidence of Squall being dead.

Quote:

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How can it be a mistake? Why didn`t they just ... like ... copy the animation of Rinoa from the camcorder scene and then paste it into the final scene?

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Because making an FMV isn't as simple as copying and pasting? Square have made continuity errors in other games too (although I won't mention any since you might call those profound symbolism too).

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But this clone device does exist, sure, it didn`t tell us whether does it have the ability to physically interact or not. Being said that, it doesn`t outright the fact that it can`t physically interact due to lack of information.

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You say it yourself. Your argument is based on lack of information.

Quote:

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Well, we don`t exactly know what happened in the FMV`s timeline. Anything can happen, no evidence required.

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I.e. "we don't have enough information".

Quote:

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Um, I`ve just posted events from the game (which are evidence), and I`ve made a interpretation/speculation of those events. If I had evidence for my interpretation/speculation, then it becomes entirely fact. This is why it`s a theory.

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When it comes literary interpretation "evidence" doesn't mean mathematical proof. It means an argument based on something real (an event in the game, tutorial information, whatever) which can very clearly be interpreted in one direction. You have provided several ingame events sure, but they don't naturally imply what you want them too. You are ONLY able to stretch them since "there is not enough information". Take your clone device for example. We know a device exists which creates a projection of people, but this isn't evidence for your theory because that would require this projection to interact physically which we don't know if it can do. Hence it's not evidence, it's just saying "we don't know for sure so anything could be true".

Why is that a worthless argument? Well, let me ask you this: do you think every theory conceivable is equally plausible? Are there theories even you would agree are absurd (Rinoa=Irvine=a cactuar in disguise for example)? If yes, then "we don't have enough information" can even be used to argue for such theories whence it becomes clear it is worthless. If no....well then you are not discussing theories but fanfiction.

The plain matter is that until you provide a piece of evidence (again, not mathematical proof, see above) which isn't based on lack of information, your theory is completely worthless.

I`m tired but I`ll try to finish this post before going off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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Well, Rinoa was a sorceress. So was Ultimecia. Ultimecia was insanely mad, wasn`t she? Right, so if Rinoa and Ultimecia were in the same family, there`s a chance that Rinoa can be crazy at certain times too.

Wasn`t Hyne crazy too? I mean, it must have taken him the guts to cut himself, tearing his parts off ... sacrificing himself.

As for Squall being alive at the end, well that`s an assumption.

---

There's no evidence that Rinoa and Ultimecia are in the same family, nor that Hyne was crazy (the story of him cutting off his skin is probably allegorical and not necessarily 100% fact). In other words you are saying "it might be possible because we don't have enough information".

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The same family, I meant by sorceress wise, obviously not blood related.

If Hyne didn`t sacrifice himself, then how did he manage to produce sorceresses? I don`t think you can create them by using pure magic ...

A sorceress must pass her powers to some one who is eligible before she peacefully dies. This can be applied to the Hyne`s situtation: he passes his super power over and he`s gone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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Which is a valid point. But consider this: if time gets skipped occasionally during the FMV. I.e. we didn`t get to view what happened to Squall after the flower field scene and he somehow appeared at the end = so we assume that time gets skipped. There are other things that get skipped as well.

So, how much time did it take from the flower field scene to the Seifer`s scene in reality? Approximately 1 minute? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month?

And how much time did it take from the previous scenes to the party scene?

My point is that if a friend of yours died for something he loved doing, then perhaps ... let`s say 1 month later since his death, you would be feeling better, not exactly sombre but better. It`s not like the co party went partying after the day of Ultimecia`s defeat, right?

If I recall correctly, Seifer was injured not too long before the entrance of Ultimecia`s, so how long did he get better? Who took him to a doctor? That must have taken some time.

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Again all you are saying is "we don't have enough information so anything could be true".

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SquareSoft obviously knows this. They know this can happen.
If some important information is crucial or very subtle, then
why didn`t they clarify so in their Ultimania guide? I`ve read the interviews, and nope, nothing.
The 'they do age' thing in the guide does not even destory R=U, because there are still more info to answer.

So I know what that answer is. It just proves that FF8 is not straightforward as intended by SquareSoft. They want individuals to enjoy the FF8`s plot with thier imaginations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

More to the point though, when a character dies in an FF game, Square have ALWAYS made a big point about it, showing the reactions of other characters.

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Not when it`s subtle and cannot be disproved / proved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

If they wanted us to think he was dead they wouldn't have shown a celebratory victory showing everyone totally happy.

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Well, everybody had to move on. They cannot keep sad all the time, otherwise that would mean no happy ending to FF8.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Squall might have been dead for a week or so after the Garden party (why would they wait longer to celebrate?)

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That`s the problem: each specific event (except the semi-final and final scenes) in the FMV has skipped time, so I don`t know exactly when.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

but then it's likely they would still have had some sort of commemoration for Squall. If they wanted us to think he was dead they wouldn't skip the commemoration and then show him appearing alive. Square might have been ambiguous in other FF's but never misleading.

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Misleading? So R=U didn`t happen after all.

Maybe the commemoration for Squall would be Laguna visiting Raine at her grave? Squall dying and Laguna visiting Raine in the same FMV? It`s kind of rare for SquareSoft to make coincidences happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

However the main issue here is that your entire argument is "we don't have enough information". I'll explain at the end why that means this theory is worthless.

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It has been proved that we don`t have enough information, which absolutely made us thinking about them for a second. There`s nothing worthless about that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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1) This game contains quite many MacGuffins, Squall at the end could be one because not enough information were given (his health and the time differences of each scene in the FMV.)
2) There are indications that something will happen in the future timelines. So, that`s another thing Square wanted us to think about. Asking for evidence is meaningless.

---

You seem to be confused about what a MacGuffin is. A MacGuffin is something which is used to advance the plot without the details of it being too important (Time compression would be the best FF8 example).

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Probably. So...

Time compression has effects.
Time compression basically combined everything. Including the people.

Time compression is over thanks to the Co party`s resistance. However, it`s possible to get jet lagged from it = altering the way how people feel a bit. Maybe that`s how the Co party felt better and happy at the party earlier? Under normal circumstances, they shouldn`t be feeling like that at the time ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Squall appearing at the end, dead or alive, would not be a MacGuffin. The plot is over when you see him!

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The plot will never be over, though. The story will keep getting repeated and repeated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Squall being dead would not be similar to anything Square has ever done. As I said, they have at most been ambiguous, never misleading.

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I`m not sure if they were misleading with the R=S theory ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Whatever indications for the future there are none of them imply that Squall is dead at the end of the game.

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There are some, e.g.

Ultimecia`s castle having lions statues.
GF Griever ...
Calling Squall the legendary SeeD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Asking for evidence is hardly meaningless. I don't mean mathematical proof mind you, but evidence as in 'arguments that aren't based on lack of information' which is the only argument you are using.

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FF8 has been proved not to be straightforward, see my above post as to why Square wouldn`t clarify. -- Leaving it up to our imaginations -- so yes, it`s meaningless to ask for pure evidence ... for now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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If Square has done something like this before, then why are the other FFs more clear? There`s a good chance that FF8 was just an experiment by Square.

---

Why is that a good chance? Also, the other FF's are not more or less clear. Consider FF9:

(SPOILER)Square do the exact same thing with Zidane as with Squall. They make it out as if he is dead, then leave you hanging for a long time in the ending not revealing him until the very last moment. The setup is literally identical to FF8. FF8 is not less clear than this.

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Yes, kind of the same thing happened to Zidane at the end. BUT he wasn`t that subtle, he looked more alive and clear. There were even dialogues of himself.

This Squall was far more subtle. There were no scene of what exactly happened to Squall after the flower field scene. His appearance was only in that scene and the very final scene. His body looked still the same when Rinoa revived him. No dialogues of himself. All took in a few seconds ... very subtle.

So how was FF8 not less clear than the FF9`s Zidance incident?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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The flat battery indicator and the casting time of Rinoa`s finger sign symbolism exactly appeared at the same time. I think it`s something to do with symbolism (I made a thread about it back then.) You see her finger sign so many times in the game = too many coincidences = likely to have some meaning.

---

It's just Square teasing the viewer. They know you're wondering if Squall is out there too, so 'coincidentally' the camcorder runs out before you can see. In any case, 'symbolism' here won't be evidence of Squall being dead.

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I`ve repeatedly checked the FMV. Yes, both of them appeared at the same time.

Actually,
The finger sign symbolism is what Squall saw Rinoa for the first time.
Battery flat indicator means dead. So, that would void the symbolism = Squall`s already dead ...

As for the teasing thing. I`m not sure, because the battery flat indicator is quite subtle; kinda hard to see and not to miss it.
If they wanted to tease us, they would rather make it less subtle ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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How can it be a mistake? Why didn`t they just ... like ... copy the animation of Rinoa from the camcorder scene and then paste it into the final scene?

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Because making an FMV isn't as simple as copying and pasting? Square have made continuity errors in other games too (although I won't mention any since you might call those profound symbolism too).

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If they copied and pasted ... that would of have saved them from wasting more hours re-creating the model of Rinoa just for the final scene ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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But this clone device does exist, sure, it didn`t tell us whether does it have the ability to physically interact or not. Being said that, it doesn`t outright the fact that it can`t physically interact due to lack of information.

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You say it yourself. Your argument is based on lack of information.

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Not entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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Well, we don`t exactly know what happened in the FMV`s timeline. Anything can happen, no evidence required.

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I.e. "we don't have enough information".

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It`s a fact. Each of the events in the FMV has skipped time, there`s a 100% possibility that something happened in between of the events` skipped time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Quote:

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Um, I`ve just posted events from the game (which are evidence), and I`ve made a interpretation/speculation of those events. If I had evidence for my interpretation/speculation, then it becomes entirely fact. This is why it`s a theory.

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When it comes literary interpretation "evidence" doesn't mean mathematical proof. It means an argument based on something real (an event in the game, tutorial information, whatever) which can very clearly be interpreted in one direction. You have provided several ingame events sure, but they don't naturally imply what you want them too.

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I understand that, but this is FF8 ... a world of unanswered questions, and questionable authority of SquareSoft.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

You are ONLY able to stretch them since "there is not enough information". Take your clone device for example. We know a device exists which creates a projection of people, but this isn't evidence for your theory because that would require this projection to interact physically which we don't know if it can do. Hence it's not evidence, it's just saying "we don't know for sure so anything could be true".

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The clone device was used in non-cgi ingame scene. It`s logical to question the existence of what it might look like in CGI scene. Because the comparsion of the ingame characters and thier CGI scenes is quite noticeable.
Even ingame functions are too limited; there are certain things that cannot be used in game. That`s why those things are used in CGI. CGI is more like... less limited.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Why is that a worthless argument? Well, let me ask you this: do you think every theory conceivable is equally plausible? Are there theories even you would agree are absurd (Rinoa=Irvine=a cactuar in disguise for example)?

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You would have to connect unanswered events, dialogues, etc. + your logical speculation, and have some patience ... Which would make your theory sound more plausible than those theories like Rinoa=Irvine ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

If yes, then "we don't have enough information" can even be used to argue for such theories whence it becomes clear it is worthless. If no....well then you are not discussing theories but fanfiction.

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FF8 being not a straightforward game; you evaluate thier unanswered questions and make serious and convincing theories. Which does not clearly meet the definition of fanfiction.

Most of my posts came from the game + speculations on how they connected. If I were to make a fanfiction story, I would completely not use any in game event at all and just make up stories.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

your theory is completely worthless.

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Thanks for your wonderful opinion.

I`ve been posting in this section since '06, normally I would never say this but ...
Jeez! I cannot imagine how many time did certain people throw a wall of "GIMME EVIDENCE111!!" text into my ears. @_@

For those of you who plans to play Dissidia Final Fantasy:

(SPOILER)Check out Ultimecia`s spells. ;) Invisible JME!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Most of my posts came from the game + speculations on how they connected. If I were to make a fanfiction story, I would completely not use any in game event at all and just make up stories.

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This particular theory is based on 3 in-game facts, as far as I can see it.

1) You don't see Squall in one of the end game FMVs.
2) There is a holographic device used at one stage of the game.
3) Squall collapses in one of the FMVs.

So, using these three facts, there has been created a theory that is improbable, implausible and is completely contrary to every other fact in the game, along with the entire underlying theme that the game is trying to convey.

So, let us take fact 2, because it is not subjective and therefore it can be disproved. When you see the holographic projection of Cid, it does not move or talk. One of the SeeDs explicity states that it is a hologram. A dictionary defines a hologram as a

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Originally Posted by The Concise Oxford Dictionary

pattern produced by interference between coherent light-beams and light diffracted etc. from same beam by an object; photograph of such a pattern, which when suitably illuminated produces an image of the object in two or three dimensions

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So, using the accepted definition of what a hologram is, one can see that it is in fact made up of light. So, if it is made up of light, it cannot move people around. You have already accepted that Squall pulls Rinoa towards him in the final FMV. This means that he is not a hologram, as he has a physical presence.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I`ve been posting in this section since '06, normally I would never say this but ...
Jeez! I cannot imagine how many time did certain people throw a wall of "GIMME EVIDENCE111!!" text into my ears. @_@[/spoiler]

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Well, you see, when you make a theory, one has to prove it with facts. And I'm not surprised that many people have 'thrown' that text at you, because most of your theories rely on a wonderful caveat: 'There is not enough information to disprove it completely, therefore it is possible, therefore it can be treated as a fact.'

Well, there is nothing that can be disproved completely. One cannot disprove completely that we aren't all living in the Matrix, therefore it is possible, therefore I can go and jump thirty meters and slow down time. Or, what about this one. One cannot disprove completely that this entire world is nothing more than a figment of my imagination, a dream as I travel through timespace, therefore none of you truly exist, and therefore you are all useless.

Just because I cannot completely disprove the facts underlying these theories does not mean that this is a valid theory. A theory is validated not by its inability to be disproved, but its ability to prove itself, and be beyond reasonable doubt. The burden of proof lies on the individual who is trying to prove it. So, you have to prove to us that Squall is dead. You have to prove to us that Rinoa is deranged enough to project a hologram of her dead lover. And, finally, you have to prove that this hologram does not obey the laws of physic and is actually able to manipulate indiduals. Oh, and of course, you have to prove that there is a HOLOGRAPHIC DEVICE in the final FMV. You can see it when you see holographic Cid. Where is it in the FMV then?

Until you are able to prove all these things beyond reasonable doubt, then I will have to concur with Sir Bahamut on the worth of this theory.

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So I know what that answer is. It just proves that FF8 is not straightforward as intended by SquareSoft. They want individuals to enjoy the FF8`s plot with thier imaginations.

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Or there ISN'T anything ultrasubtle hidden in the game. You certainly can't prove that Square's omission of crucial revelations in the Ultimania indicates that there ARE crucial revelations still to be found.

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Not when it`s subtle and cannot be disproved / proved.

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Circular reasoning. You can't use Squall's apparent ultra-subtle death as proof that Square are subtle about character deaths sometimes.

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There are some, e.g.

Ultimecia`s castle having lions statues.
GF Griever ...
Calling Squall the legendary SeeD

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How do any of these indicate that Squall was dead in the final FMV? I can see your (flawed) reasoning here but these points could only feasibly be used to argue that Squall died some time after the game ends, which is obvious anyway. He's not immortal after all.

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This Squall was far more subtle. There were no scene of what exactly happened to Squall after the flower field scene. His appearance was only in that scene and the very final scene. His body looked still the same when Rinoa revived him. No dialogues of himself. All took in a few seconds ... very subtle.

So how was FF8 not less clear than the FF9`s Zidance incident?

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There were no scenes showing exactly what happened to Zidane after that scene either. Besides that the only difference is that Zidane had dialogue, but that's hardly a massive difference. Certainly doesn't make for anything significantly subtle.

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Actually,
The finger sign symbolism is what Squall saw Rinoa for the first time.
Battery flat indicator means dead. So, that would void the symbolism = Squall`s already dead ...

As for the teasing thing. I`m not sure, because the battery flat indicator is quite subtle; kinda hard to see and not to miss it.
If they wanted to tease us, they would rather make it less subtle ...

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You're the only one who thinks that scene's subtle you know, so until you find some evidence for your theory (see my last post) you finding it too subtle to be teasing is not a valid argument. As for the symbolism, "battery flat = someone's dead" is far from obvious and is something you read into it so as to support your idea. Anyone can read symbolism into the smallest things if they try hard enough.

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You would have to connect unanswered events, dialogues, etc. + your logical speculation, and have some patience ... Which would make your theory sound more plausible than those theories like Rinoa=Irvine ...

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That's not all though. In order to raise your theory from the absurdity of Rinoa=Irvine (glad you agree that's absurd btw, was honestly expecting you to defend it) you can't just use your imagination and speculation to connect some dots (patience is hardly relevant: I could wait for years and Rinoa=Irvine would be just as silly). You need to provide some evidence that the game is suggesting your theory to be true! You say that FF8 is "a world of unanswered questions", but that doesn't mean that any answer you conceive of is going to be less than worthless. There's gotta be something in the game which supports your theory.

With your clone device idea, there's no such evidence. You have pulled it out of your imagination as one possible scenario and argued that there's nothing which inhibits it from being true in a mathematical sense. But you agreed with me that FF8 theories isn't mathematics. What seperates good theories from bad theories is evidence which is difficult to intepret in any other way than the one supporting your theory. But your clone device can easily be argued to be incapable of physical interaction, and the fact that Squall wasn't shown till the end can easily be interpreted as teasing by Squall.

Your entire theory rests on the idea that "it's not 100% impossible due to lack of information", and as such is no more valid than Rinoa=Irvine.

Originally Posted by Serapy

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Well, everybody had to move on. They cannot keep sad all the time, otherwise that would mean no happy ending to FF8.

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I agree that they had to move on , but I think they would show some sign of sadness when they saw Rinoa standing alone on the balcony ,or that she so desperate to use a clone device in Squall's place ; But when Selphie points to Rinoa she is clearly smiling , that shows Squall can't be dead .

Wow. This thread is so old.


I think the ending of FF8 is about Squalls hallucinations while traveling through time compression. It's kind of like he and Rinoa meet in their dreams in the place that they promised. I think alot of it is really symbolic, for the most part, which is why i like the idea of Squall being in a dream like state the whole time.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

If they copied and pasted ... that would of have saved them from wasting more hours re-creating the model of Rinoa just for the final scene ...

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Okay, as someone who works and studies in the industry and specifically that kind of stuff, you are almost completely wrong. There are many factors to consider in terms of how things actually work in the industry with project management and the like, but I'll go more specific.

They could re-use the model, they could re-use the rig, depending on certain factors they might not be able to just "copy and paste" the animation (it's actually absurd that you use the terms copy and paste in this situation). Chances are they refined the animation. Also consider things like rendering and compositing. There's so many factors involved and you should really refrain from trying to state a theory if you have no idea about the subject.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

That's not all though. In order to raise your theory from the absurdity of Rinoa=Irvine (glad you agree that's absurd btw, was honestly expecting you to defend it) you can't just use your imagination and speculation to connect some dots (patience is hardly relevant: I could wait for years and Rinoa=Irvine would be just as silly). You need to provide some evidence that the game is suggesting your theory to be true! You say that FF8 is "a world of unanswered questions", but that doesn't mean that any answer you conceive of is going to be less than worthless. There's gotta be something in the game which supports your theory.

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Well, that`s why it`s a theory. Of course, the game doesn`t provide explicitly evidence that Squall is dead, or R is U. There are so many hints, though.
But consider this, if FF8 actually was more straightforward, giving as much detailed information as possible, would that make the whole game more boring? Maybe that`s why SquareSoft didn`t want to make that happen, instead, they made the plot more complex and whack Ultimecia a good ol bag of very small information. That`s why FF8 was one of the greatest hits in the previous generation.

If they actually wanted FF8 to be a straightforward game, chances are that they will say that they made a mistake for not showing enuff information and instead add these missed info to the Ultimania book. But they didn`t ...

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

You're the only one who thinks that scene's subtle you know, so until you find some evidence for your theory (see my last post) you finding it too subtle to be teasing is not a valid argument. As for the symbolism, "battery flat = someone's dead" is far from obvious and is something you read into it so as to support your idea. Anyone can read symbolism into the smallest things if they try hard enough.

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There`s no evidence that it was a teasing scene, either.

I thought I have the “Subtle” word right.

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Subtle = Not loud, bright, noticeable or obvious in any way

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Is the battery indicator hard to notice? In my first playthrough, I didn`t notice the battery indicator because it was very small and the camera FMV didn`t last long. So I thought that was quite subtle (note: not the whole scene, just the battery indicator.)

Obviously battery dead doesn`t necessarily mean that Squall is dead, but it`s interesting to think about.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

There were no scenes showing exactly what happened to Zidane after that scene either. Besides that the only difference is that Zidane had dialogue, but that's hardly a massive difference. Certainly doesn't make for anything significantly subtle.

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It does make a difference! When you see Zidance at the ending, his dialogues and so on = crucial information. You feel 100% confident that he`s well alive at that time. But as for Squall, it`s not like that. Anybody like me have the right to feel suspicious!

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

How do any of these indicate that Squall was dead in the final FMV? I can see your (flawed) reasoning here but these points could only feasibly be used to argue that Squall died some time after the game ends, which is obvious anyway. He's not immortal after all.

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We fully acknowledge that Mausolus died and Artemisia honoring him (his castle, lions, pride, etc.)

We fully acknowledge that Squall went “motionless” onto the ground, Rinoa comes to the rescue. Squall`s lions, pride and strength, etc. And everything what we saw from the game.

But we do not fully acknowledge what has happened after the game. Zell may have died in a car crash, or whatever = infinite possibilities.

I mean, using the examples from what we saw / heard. We heard that Mausolus died, and we saw that Squall went motionless. Maybe there`s a connection in that part. It could be a coincidence but consider the connection of lions, stars, pride and strength between Squall/Rinoa and Mausolus/Artemisia. Not infinite . . .

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Circular reasoning. You can't use Squall's apparent ultra-subtle death as proof that Square are subtle about character deaths sometimes.

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No, I meant that SquareSoft simply put him there, and that`s it. Any thing that may question the existence of Squall at that time cannot be proved / disproved. Unless SquareSoft tells us, but I doubt they will.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Or there ISN'T anything ultrasubtle hidden in the game. You certainly can't prove that Square's omission of crucial revelations in the Ultimania indicates that there ARE crucial revelations still to be found.

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If that`s the case, then consider why are there so many theories regarding FF8. Where did such theories come from, then?
A straightforward game with very detailed backgrounds wouldn`t have that many theories, if at all, none. I`m sure SquareSoft knows this. If all of the theories are widely known, do you think that will annoy the hell out of SquareSoft? Should they have added better information in the Ultimania book? Nope, they didn`t. So that leads us to the reason; let our imaginations do the job.

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Originally Posted by Takero

I agree that they had to move on , but I think they would show some sign of sadness when they saw Rinoa standing alone on the balcony ,or that she so desperate to use a clone device in Squall's place ; But when Selphie points to Rinoa she is clearly smiling , that shows Squall can't be dead.

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But we don`t know when exactly did the ending party take place. As well as the FMV jumping from specific events to other specific events. E.g. we saw Rinoa touch Squall on the field, and then after that we get to see Seifer. I understand that if the ending party took place after 3 months or so, and Rinoa using a clone device at that time would strange. Saying a good bye after 3 months? Maybe it`s not the clone device that appeared Squall, but came from Rinoa`s mind. Maybe it`s just for players` sakes; happy ending. I had hallucinations in the past, the strange things I saw looked real. That could be the case here.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

I think the ending of FF8 is about Squalls hallucinations while traveling through time compression. It's kind of like he and Rinoa meet in their dreams in the place that they promised. I think alot of it is really symbolic, for the most part, which is why i like the idea of Squall being in a dream like state the whole time.

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Yeah, a lot of things in this game are symbolic. Symbolic things with lack of crucial background information are very hard to disprove / prove.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

Okay, as someone who works and studies in the industry and specifically that kind of stuff, you are almost completely wrong. There are many factors to consider in terms of how things actually work in the industry with project management and the like, but I'll go more specific.

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You obviously haven`t seen the difference between the models of Rinoa used at the beginning party and the ending party, have you?

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Originally Posted by Omecle

They could re-use the model, they could re-use the rig, depending on certain factors they might not be able to just "copy and paste" the animation (it's actually absurd that you use the terms copy and paste in this situation). Chances are they refined the animation. Also consider things like rendering and compositing. There's so many factors involved and you should really refrain from trying to state a theory if you have no idea about the subject.

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There are factors involved, that`s for sure. But I was talking in simple terms as you may be aware that not every person knows such technical terms. Anyway, it`s entirely possible to “copy” a model and “paste” it into a new set and sync its frames with the other frames. In other words; load the specific model and re-use it without doing any heavy modifications to it.
I have done 2d animations and 3d animations, so yes I do know about the subject.

SquareSoft actually did this but the point is that they have modified the way how Rinoa smilies. It seems that they want to make the ending a bit more unique.

the ending of ff8 was in my opinion one of the more confusing endings but u tend to get into that situation when u get involved in time traviling and strang things like that so the best thing i caan wish for is that thay make some more games like thay did with ff7 or atleast give me an ff8 movie to sum up and answer some of those lingering questions fans have about the story of ff8 i mean come on sqare after 7 theres no ff game more deserving then ff8 :cool:

I believe it might have to do with Time Compression and the final stage of Ultimecia when she says, "Welcome to the Time Compression" or "This is Time Compression" and so when she explodes maybe only Squall gets stuck in Time Compression and everyone else the Time Compression portal closes for everyone else.

All I have to say is the following;

Rinoa kissing a hologram.

ROFLMFAO

Really? Cmon...Seriously? How can this even be considered a theory.

My advice: Take it for what it is. Squalls alive, they kiss, happy ending, goodnight.

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Originally Posted by thePSgamer

All I have to say is the following;

Rinoa kissing a hologram.

ROFLMFAO

Really? Cmon...Seriously? How can this even be considered a theory.

My advice: Take it for what it is. Squalls alive, they kiss, happy ending, goodnight.

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I concur, but as you can see, I would have more success if I tried to move a wall by bashing my head against it. But maybe you can succeed where we've all failed.

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Originally Posted by thePSgamer

All I have to say is the following;

Rinoa kissing a hologram.

ROFLMFAO

Really? Cmon...Seriously? How can this even be considered a theory.

My advice: Take it for what it is. Squalls alive, they kiss, happy ending, goodnight.

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Read my theory carefully, you may understand what I`m getting at. This theory does not wholly rely on the Rinoa-Kissing-fake-Squall thing, by the way.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

I concur, but as you can see, I would have more success if I tried to move a wall by bashing my head against it. But maybe you can succeed where we've all failed.

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Wow, there goes the fun discussing about Final Fantasy VIII in terms of interest. Now, you are making the whole thing look like "I win, har har, you lose har har!" battles because that does 'really' nully void the ethical goal of discussions of FFVIII. It`s pathetic, really. But if I were to be in your interest, I`d say keep agruing so that you can feed your nasty habit of banging your own head to a wall ... :rolleyes2