Whose fault was it?(SPOILERS)

I've been wondering... who killed Aeris? Was it Sephiroth or Jenova? Right after stabbing her, he flies up and becomes a small thingy, and lands at Cloud's feet while the screen goes red. Then there's a boss battle with Jenova.

At the Northern Cave, Tifa even says: "Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we
were after?"

The real Sephiroth was that one encased in Mako, and everyone else were just his clones... right?

If that's so, than why are big Aeris fans complaining that it was Sephiroth's fault she kicked the bucket? It wasn't really him was it?

God I ask a lot of questions

You know,your gana have to take a guess.Me,being a big Sephiroth fan despite Aeris being killed by (supposibly) him,have an idea.

Yes,i think the person who killed Aeris was a clone.A very good,perhaps the only succesful, Sephiroth Clone.You know how Cloud was living Zacks memories?Well,think of this Clone(looking exactly like Sephiroth) living Sephiroths memories.

I think this was Jenovas plan.Hojo was making Sephiroth Clones,people that could hold his strength and power,but he never gave them Sephiroths thoughts.Jenova must have.Jenova,being a *thing* we know little about,Cloud have known everything there was to know about Sephiroth,seeing how her Cells were in him.Perhaps she collected his thoughts and memories.She then gave them to this clone.

The clone killed Aeris.The clone was being controlled by Jenova.The line "You are a Puppet" was directed twords Cloud, to make him mentaly unstable,but...I think it was actually ment to fit Sephiroths clone.The clone was Jenovas toy,and a toy ment to be played with by the Shinra.That is the reson Hojo made the clones.

So,basicly,Hojo made a clone.Jenova gave the clone Sephiroths memories and feelings and life(basicly),and the Clone in return did her bidding, knowing nothing of her playing with him like a puppet.

now,i hope somone give you their thoughts...-.-;;; i think it'd be nice to hear their ideas to.

Or,then again,cloud coulda done sephiroth clone/jenovas dirty work for them....I just dont know.

Yeah, I think Sephiroth (or whoever...) had originally planned Cloud to kill Aeris but Jenova's control over him just wasn't strong enough. (Remember, he was saying to Cloud in his dream "WE must stop that girl soon.") But when he saw that Cloud managed to stop himself, he flies down and does the job.

I heard a theory that this was no clone...

The real Sephiroth was killed by cloud(as everybody knows) but because of the will too find Jenova he refused too become a part of the lifestream..
Soo the shirna inc transported his damaged body to Northen crater and placed it in a mako chrysalis.

There with he´s great willpower he was so strong that he could coalesce himself into physical form through is mind and travel that way.

So you could say that Sephiroth was the killer

But... as i say just a theory that is not to be taking seriously.

good theroy.Meric also brought up a point I had forgotten,to.That whole dream thing.Well,I dont know if there is a soilid answer to this question.:rolleyes2

Yeah, I wouldn't take that theory seriously, since there's a few things wrong it... Sephiroth already found Jenova. And the Shinra has never been to the Northern cave before (hence Rufus and Scarlet being so surprised and pleased at all the mako)

And if Sephiroth was SO strong, how could Cloud so easily kill him?

:p Where did you ever hear this theory from?

i think that jenova was responsible because she was basically controling sephiroth

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Originally posted by MeriC
Yeah, I wouldn't take that theory seriously, since there's a few things wrong it... Sephiroth already found Jenova. And the Shinra has never been to the Northern cave before (hence Rufus and Scarlet being so surprised and pleased at all the mako)

And if Sephiroth was SO strong, how could Cloud so easily kill him?

:p Where did you ever hear this theory from?

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I think you are right this theory isnt good at all and i heard it from my friend.

My theory on the other hand is a bit better.....

I think that sephiroth himself was weak, he was indeed controlled by the real thread and enemy of this game wich is jenova

She was the one who created shrina inc with her ability to control other people´s mind. So u could say that she is behind everything.She manipulated everyone and changed much of the memories that cloud had. Sephiroth was just her puppet to take the blame on. At the end of the game in the fight with Bizarro and saviour sephiroth. if you take a close look you can see this extra head on bizarro wich is jenova junctioned with sephiroth.

Who is jenova?
Jenova is alien who destroyed the ancients 2000 years ago and descriped as" The crisis from the sky" in one of the books at the Shrina mansion

This creature was discovered sealed somewhere in northen crater and seemed to be in some kind of coma. Professor Gast took jenova to his laboratory and did a lot of experiment on her. He did a big mistake bringing her to his laboratory.As time passed she corrupted the minds of the people at the laboratory and later it became shirna inc(you should guess the rest of the story).

The only remaining ancients where aeris and sephiroth
Sephiroth was Hojo son inffected with jenova cells to make him poweful. And Aeris is Gast´s daughter.

I personally think it was jenova beacause she had full control of everything including her puppet sephiroth wich she used too get her will done.

This maby doesnt make much sense and i admit this may be bull but as i say this is what i believe happened and is my theory on this.

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Originally posted by RyuuRaigeki
I have a friend who believes that it was entirely Jenova controlling Sephiroth during the WHOLE game. My main problem with that theory is that lines he said before he chopped off her head, the :

"But they...those worthless creatures....are stealing the planet from mother!"

It just doesn't make sense. Unless the last planet Jenova had for dinner's native language was one that talks in third person, and she picked up an accent...

I personally believe the blame is equally upon Jenova and Sephiroth for Aeris' death. Imo, Sephiroth had a bit of a choice...even in the insanity. Though it is true he had a bit of a genetic predisposition, most likely coming from his father's side...

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I think Sephiroth remained insane because at that point he was so brainwashed that even without Jenova's added influence, he didn't have a chance of seeing the reality of what he was doing. Hojo was certainly insane, arguably even before he came into contact with Jenova and certainly afterwards. Sephiroth more or less didn't stand a chance, given his background.

I don't know how anyone could think the "Sephiroth" that kills Aeris is actually Sephiroth, given that the real Sephiroth appears in the Northern Crater. Given the fake Sephiroth's appearance, I'd say he's likely Jenova taking his form (the fact that you fight Jenova several times when you encounter "Sephiroth" adds a considerable substance to this theory), as does the fact that the first time you hear of renewed Sephiroth activity after his disappearance five years before the start of the game is right after Jenova breaks free from her prison. Also, given the fact that none of the other clones look like Sephiroth, it's likely not one of them that did it.

I still don't exactly understand what Jenova's prison was, though, and since Hojo seemed to want to advance Jenova's cause, I don't see why he should have her in a prison in the first place.

Sephiroth was not an Ancient; given that his parents were Hojo and Lucrecia, he was simply misled to believe he was by Jenova.

The person who flew away dropped a body part of jenova and therefore one of her many forms took place. I think that only a part of her body needs to survive in order for her to spawn and therefore she killed aeris. Remember Jenova could take any form she wanted and communicated with Cloud at that exact time because of the cells in him. Also the clones did not actually look like sephiroth they only had Jenova's cells and were created in a similar way.

Ony one tweak in your story: Sephiroth wasnt an ancient at all.Other then that,it seems really possible.

PHYSICALLY, the one that kills Aeris is indeed not Sephiroth. Seph's physical body fell into the Lifestream 5 years ago, carrying Jenovah's head and ended up in the Northern Crater, where he remained until the end. The physical Sephiroth Cloud and Company follow is the BODY of Jenovah, rushing towards the head, just as all the black-cloaked men with Jenovah cells and Cloud (also with Jenovah-cells)

The question, there are two things in the centre that could be bossing people around. Sephiroth and the Head of Jenovah. So who is calling the shots between those two?

BEFORE Sephiroth got shish-kebabbed by Cloud, I think Seph was more going insane than anything else, with perhaps SOME influence by Jenovah. It's clear he's got a misconception. He ASSUMES Jenovah is an Ancient, while Jenovah is the thing that almost WIPED OUT the Ancients. (note, it is suggested that Jenovah might be some kind of disease corrupting Ancients, as Aeris' mother says some Ancients started acting strane. So Jenova's body (and thus Sephiroth) could very well have Ancient DNA, but Jenova is NOT an Ancient) Basically, Sephiroth freaks out and develops, what his detractors call 'a mommy complex'

AFTERWARDS the one running the show seems to have forgotten about the whole 'return the world to the Ancients' stuff. Summonning Meteor and corrupting the Lifestream for its own purposes is definately NOT Ancient action.

But again. Is it Sephiroth or Jenovah?

I believe it IS Sephiroth. For some reasons.

1: Why would Jenovah take Sephiroth's form?

2: Why would Jenovah feel the need to kill President Shin-Ra?

3: Why would Jenovah feel the need to return to the Shin-Ra mansion in Niebelheim. She has never been there.

4: Why would all the caped creatures speak of Master Se...phi...roth

5: Who is the one going for godhood at the end? It ain't Jenovah.

I think a possible compromise is saying that Jenovah shouldn't be considered an actual PERSON, but more of a disease, corrupting Lifestream and individuals alike (though it can strengthen them in small doses) Some get corrupted and become mindless drones, following stronger Jenovah-carriers (black capes) some freak out (Cloud) some become morally corrupt while maintaining their identity (Sephiroth, Hojo up to a point, even IF he seems to be aiding Sephiroth)

1: Why would Jenovah take Sephiroth's form?

It's a good cover given it explains a lot of her actions and abilities. He's the person she has the most connection to. He draws Cloud.

2: Why would Jenovah feel the need to kill President Shin-Ra?

She killed everyone, besides she'd been locked in his building.

3: Why would Jenovah feel the need to return to the Shin-Ra mansion in Niebelheim. She has never been there.

There was a lot of information on her, Sephiroth and Cloud in that basement.

4: Why would all the caped creatures speak of Master Se...phi...roth

Why would they do it if Sephiroth was in charge? In the same way that taking his own form would blow his own cover, having all the crazy people moan his name would be pointless.
It provides a cover, and it draws Cloud. Plus Sephiroth was an actual point to head for, they couldn't go to Jenova, she was everywhere.

5: Who is the one going for godhood at the end? It ain't Jenovah.

Says who? Until the very final one on one that sure as hell isn't 100% human Sephiroth. He shows a lot of Jenova's traits aswell.

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Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
1: Why would Jenovah take Sephiroth's form?

It's a good cover given it explains a lot of her actions and abilities. He's the person she has the most connection to. He draws Cloud.

2: Why would Jenovah feel the need to kill President Shin-Ra?

She killed everyone, besides she'd been locked in his building.

3: Why would Jenovah feel the need to return to the Shin-Ra mansion in Niebelheim. She has never been there.

There was a lot of information on her, Sephiroth and Cloud in that basement.

4: Why would all the caped creatures speak of Master Se...phi...roth

Why would they do it if Sephiroth was in charge? In the same way that taking his own form would blow his own cover, having all the crazy people moan his name would be pointless.
It provides a cover, and it draws Cloud. Plus Sephiroth was an actual point to head for, they couldn't go to Jenova, she was everywhere.

5: Who is the one going for godhood at the end? It ain't Jenovah.

Says who? Until the very final one on one that sure as hell isn't 100% human Sephiroth. He shows a lot of Jenova's traits aswell.

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All valid points. But cn we agree that in the final battle, there is little point for Jenovah wouldn't be in any need for cover, and we're talking at the very least of a Jenova/Sephiroth merging?

Also, been a while since I played, but I seem to recall there be a mention of 'Sephiroth's will' wich would suggest it's the silver haired bishounen calling the shots. (but he could be influenced by Jenovah)

Heh, I guess this is FFVII's R=U problem... except I can't really get behind either case. Still, I don't think the Sephiroth you follow is merely Jenova putting on a show.

I think Jenova has Sephiroth so brainwashed it doesn't really matter who's calling the shots, because even if Sephiroth is the one in power, he's doing more or less exactly what she wants him to. Even after Jenova is supposedly "defeated" (although it's not clear whether she actually is or not), there's no reason for all of her brainwashing of Sephiroth to come undone. He'd continue going for godhood without her help.

There is a theory that Sephiroth is the one behind the thing, but in a different way to how it's usually expressed. As far as I understand it, the Lifestream carries within it knowledge from all of those who have died and returned to the Lifestream right? While Sephiroth was floating in it for god knows how long (after Cloud hurls him into it at Nibelheim), he discovers information about the "Promised Land" and whatnot from Professor Gast and the Cetra, as well as anyone else who'd known about that stuff and had died.

Now, with the Jenova cells in his body (at a far higher extent than any other person alive), it's reasonable to assume that he'd have some kind of extra powers right? Say, imposing his will onto others impregnated with Jenova cells? By this method, he controls the clones. He sends one to ShinRa HQ and kills everyone there, as well as taking Jenova's body and dismembering it.

Now consider this; Jenova has been headless for what, 5-10 years? Even is Jenova wasn't really dead, being in pieces doesn't exactly suggest to me that Jenova is in full control of its senses, though I could well be wrong. I mean, alien physiology isn't exactly known to me =P But if it is the case, then Jenova can't really be controlling Sephiroth, so maybe it's the other way around? I mean, why would Jenova's final form fight the party before the real Sephiroth did, if it was controlling him? It doesn't really make sense to me at all.

As a note, Jenova wasn't exactly a disease. I mean, as far as I can tell, by what Ifalna says in the Icicle Inn interviews, Jenova is sentient, and do you know of any sentient viruses? But in another way, I think it is correct; Ifalna says that the Cetra were infected with a virus which mutated them into monsters; I believe this to be some variation of what was done to Sephiroth and others like him, or to be more exact, what Hojo did to Vincent, turning him into a mutant via Jenova cells.

The way I see it, Jenova was the real puppet in FFVII, Sephiroth was plain insane and Hojo knew full well what he was doing, right up until he OD'd on Jenova cells or whatever it is he takes in Midgar; if it is Jenova cells, then he could just as easily have become another puppet for Sephiroth.

So, the way I see it, Sephiroth was technically responsible for Aeris's death, making the clone that was carrying Jenova's dismembered corpse stick his sword through the flower girls back, but he's also out of this tree. Now, legal definition is that if you're out of your tree, you're not truly responsible for your actions, so Sephiroth isn't really to blame for Aeris' death. No one is really; it's just bum luck that she got skewered coz' of some psychopath.

In the terms of the game though, Hojo is the real badguy; everything he does until that final Midgar showdown was done in full clarity by him: killing Gast, injecting Lucrecia and thus Sephiroth with Jenova cells, mutating Vincent, creating monsters, SOLDIERs, experimenting on Aeris and Ifalna, and whatnot. It is because of these actions that Sephiroth loses his mind and all hell breaks loose. Sephiroth is just a victim of circumstance and after he loses his sanity, he's not responsible for what truly happens afterwards.

But mweh, I could be wrong =P

*reads the first couple of threads*

Ah, this again.

ANYWAY, there is no doubt in my mind that Jenova was the mastermind of everything. She manipulated Sephiroth, manipulated Cloud, and even, I believe, manipulated Shinra. Jenova was a alien of enormous power, especially combined with her cunning.

Here's my theory:

Jenova arrived at the planet some 2000 years ago. If you paid attention while playing, you'd know that Jenova beguiled the Cetra into thinking that she(Jenova) was a friend, and then spread a disease amongst them(the Cetra), killing off many, and eventually leading to the nigh extinction of the Cetra race.
Anyway, the few remaining Cetra banded together. They managed to encase her below the surface of the planet, hopefully trapping her forever. The Cetra also created the Weapons and such to help battle Jenova.

This is where the manipulation part starts. I believe Jenova, using her telepathic powers(mind projection, hallucinations, whatever), managed to lure Shinra to her location, where they dug her up. Jenova was physically too weak to escape on her own, so Shinra locked her up in a lab.
Back to facts: they studied her, and mistakenly took her for a Cetra. They did tests, and eventually produced Sephiroth(I'm not going into the history of Sephiroth; if you don't know it by now, you shouldn't be reading this). Sephiroth, growing up as a specimen and with his Jenova cells, was Jenova's perfect tool to secure her release.

On the Nibelheim Reaction mission(flashback, Kalm), Jenova sensed Sephiroth coming nearer to her. Using her connection to Sephiroth(Jenova cells), Jenova slowly worked away at lowering Sephiroth's mental barriers. Remember, when Cloud asks Sephiroth a question(it was something like, "So, does that mean you are like...these?"), Sephiroth, the most intelligent, cold-hearted human being, freaks out. I think that was Jenova.

However, Sephiroth wasn't stupid. He was also very powerful with the Jenova cells. He wouldn't submit to anyone willingly. Jenova lured him to the Shinra mansion(or he could have gone of his own volition; in this case, it doesn't matter), where he stumbled upon Hojo's notes. In his weakened mental state, he mistakenly concludes that Jenova is his mother(with possibly some mental prods in this direction by Jenova). This was what Jenova needed: someone to willingly work with her to help her escape. Jenova knew that Shinra thought she was a Cetra. Jenova used this: convincing Sephiroth completely that she was his mother, a Cetra, and that those heathenous humans were trying to steal the Planet from her. You probably realized that Sephiroth came up with the whole "you are traitors to the Cetra, stealing the Planet from Mother" thing practically overnight.

Hence, the burning of Nibelheim, and the release of Jenova. Jenova didn't mind-control him; Sephiroth whole-heartedly believed in what he was doing. He had gone insane.

This theory above answers a common question asked by those who think Sephiroth controlled Jenova: if Jenova was in charge, why didn't Sephiroth "wake up" once she was killed?

Anyway, more speculation:

There should be two questions on your mind after you've read the above(if you even read it): 1, why didn't Jenova leave after she escaped?, and 2, how does Meteor and Sephiroth's "plan" work into all of this?

1. Jenova didn't leave for two possible reasons: 1, she was still too weak, 2, she didn't want to, or both.

2. I believe that Jenova didn't want to leave. I think that Jenova wanted her revenge: on the Cetra, on the humans, on Shinra, on the Planet. Jenova discovered Meteor. As an alien, she probably couldn't use it herself, so she still had to hold on to Sephiroth. He was still useful. Using her manipulations(i.e., the entire first disk, and part of the second), she brought the Black materia to Sephiroth, who obediently summoned Meteor. But before he summoned Meteor, Sephiroth may have asked, "Why, mommy?" To which Jenova needed to answer, 'cause she still needed Sephiroth. So she said, "because then, if we wound the Planet, the Lifestream will gather, and we can harness the power and you can become a god and help take back this Planet from the traitors." Sephiroth accepted that theory, and so that's what he told you(Cloud) on various occasions.
But that wasn't Jenova's plan. No, she wanted the Planet destroyed. And that's what Meteor would have done: not merely wound the Planet, but destory it. Holy stopped it.


So there you go. My complete Jenova theory. If you read all that, I congratulate you, and you get a cookie.

Anyway, that was just my justification to the Jenova over Sephiroth theory. On the topic of this thread, there's three possibilities on what, exactly, killed Aeris:

1. Sephiroth clone- already been said in this thread(I think). This theory is supported, almost exclusively, by the fact that Dio(I think it was Dio) saw a number tatoo on his(disc 1 Sephy) hand.

2. Sephiroth projection: Sephiroth, using the power of his Jenova cells, projected an image of himself across the Planet. This theory is supported by the fact that Sephiroth often appears and disappears, walks through walls, floats, etc.

3. Jenova-in-disguise: probably the most likely of the three. Jenova, disguised as Sephiroth to manipulate Cloud(remember, Cloud didn't hate Jenova; Cloud hated Sephiroth), was the Sephiroth running around in disc 1. This theory is supported by those Jenova boss battles in disc 1, the fact that Sephiroth "killed" the clones in the Crater at the beginning of disc 2(which could have been Jenova reclaiming her cells, as the Reunion was intended for, and Cloud just saw what she wanted him to see), Sephiroth flying, etc.

Yeah. Long post. *gives everyone a cookie*

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Originally posted by Raistlin
However, Sephiroth wasn't stupid. He was also very powerful with the Jenova cells. He wouldn't submit to anyone willingly. Jenova lured him to the Shinra mansion(or he could have gone of his own volition; in this case, it doesn't matter), where he stumbled upon Hojo's notes. In his weakened mental state, he mistakenly concludes that Jenova is his mother(with possibly some mental prods in this direction by Jenova).

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Could have sworn he claims that Jenova is his mother before ever setting foot in Nibelheim.

I think I know what you're talking about. Cloud asks him about his parents(during the car ride, or maybe just when they arrived), and Sephiroth answers that he doesn't know who his father is, and that he only knows his mother was someone named Jenova. He didn't know who/what Jenova was.

So, yeah, I guess the theory could go another way: with Sephiroths "realization" that he's an alien and a freak of nature, he goes nuts on his own, and THEN Jenova latches on to him. But that's much less complicated and mine makes a better story.