Seal Massaca

it's things like this that help reinforce my reasoning to push past intellectual debate and just beat the living hell out of people who hurt animals.

it amazes me the amount of people who are vegetarian and think that by debating with murders you can stop them...while every minute you do another life is taken. im not saying everyone has to be as tough as me...but dont allow villians to conduct villiany simply because your afriad of confrontation. it's damn luck im not the richest man in the world because by now i would have wiped out the whole of canada

The seals are the real villians here, eating all those fish. Who will picket to save the fish, eh? I suppose if there was a mass-culling of fish you'd be happy with that, wouldn't you.

no actually i wouldnt, vegetarians dont eat fish or birds. but at the same time seals carnt exactly go shopping at morrisons can they.

your post wasnt funny in the least

Funny? Sorry, but I don't think the mass-eating of fish by overweight, lazy, ungrateful seals is a particularly funny subject. Maybe David Letterman could get some laughs out of it but otherwise no.

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what anyone has said so far in this thread. Snowman, are you saying that you think people who kill animals are murderers, and you want to beat those people up? Thankfully the law disagrees, and people who beat up other people are thrown in jail, even if they're defending a truckload of baby seals. Because humans are worth more than animals.

Are we debating vegetarianism? I dislike unnecessary harming of animals, but killing animals for the purpose of allowing me to eat them is necessary, in my book.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRe...d=155-04142004


Is what there talking about unne.


I think its to much there killing, and there only killing them for the skins. Ive seen images of a guy batting a baby seals head the other day on fox news, and it was disturbing. But yeah I guess you can call it balancing the food chain...

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Are we debating vegetarianism? I dislike unnecessary harming of animals, but killing animals for the purpose of allowing me to eat them is necessary, in my book.

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It is not necessary, you can live without meat, but hey, we are ornivores, and it's natural to feel inclined to eat meat. I eat meat, I would prefer not to, but well, I am not perfect, I admit I cannot avoid to eat it. However, unless I am in a restaurant, I always look where the meat comes from, assuring it comes from my community where measures in the killing of animals for food are very strict, so they don't suffer. Same goes for eggs, I look at the procedence to know those eggs have been taken from a farm that dosen't have them trapped in cages where they can't move. I find treating animals with cruelty is unethical, but killing them fast for food...I don't believe that to be unethical, it's preety natural after all.

However, what I don't apreciate is an annoying fundamentalist vegetarian to call me a murderer for eating meat :D


Anyway, as for the seal massacre, well, I cannot understand what kind of moral values a person who buys fur coats may have. Schopenhauer said a person who is cruel to animals is probably a bad person to people. Well, judging from my experience, thats true. I recommend everyone to visit peta.org, it says quite a few interesting things about fur factories. I love how the maximize benefits while reducing costs includes ignoring any ethical consideration whatsoever.

Inhumane hunting of animals, for whatever purpose, is grotesque and should not be permitted, in my opinion. Especially not if the purpose is purely cosmetic, for example fur-collection.

If animals are in sustainable numbers and are culled in a humane manner, for example cattle that're bred for meat and leather, then it's hard to argue with... but seals are intelligent and inoffensive, not to mention decreasing in number.[q=Snowman] it's damn luck im not the richest man in the world because by now i would have wiped out the whole of canada[/q]Murdering 32 million innocent people? How would that help in the least, and how is it at all justifiable given your compaint about 'murderers'?

I consume meat, but I actively avoid products that I know to be sourced from inhumane practices. I don't feel like I deserve to be murdered for this. Any "lifestyle choice" can cause harm, that doesn't mean that you should kill everyone who's different to you. After all, just two years ago a vegan couple in my city were convicted for the death of their infant child, who they tried to raise on vegetable products rather than milk. Don't think anyone's calling for the extermination of vegans. [q=noname]I guess you can call it balancing the food chain...[/q]The food chain's usually good at balancing itself, except in areas where human have interfered. The Japanese whaling industry often uses 'restoring balance' as a justification for the mass-killing of Antarctic Minke whales, claiming that they're pests responsible for destroying fish stocks. The argument doesn't hold water, I'm afraid.

But one other question about vegetarianism... why is it always assumed that it's OK to kill and eat plants? Plants react to stimuli, they have 'feelings' too, you might say.

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But one other question about vegetarianism... why is it always assumed that it's OK to kill and eat plants? Plants react to stimuli, they have 'feelings' too, you might say.

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Hahahahahah! You're being a bit exagerated :p

Reminds me to the Simpson:

"I am vegetarian level 6, I don't eat anything that has a shadow"

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Originally Posted by Big D

[q=noname]I guess you can call it balancing the food chain...[/q]

The food chain's usually good at balancing itself, except in areas where human have interfered. The Japanese whaling industry often uses 'restoring balance' as a justification for the mass-killing of Antarctic Minke whales, claiming that they're pests responsible for destroying fish stocks. The argument doesn't hold water, I'm afraid.

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Yeah I know, it sort of like killing a mocking bird. Seals aint harming any, and yet these guys are killing these little seal pups all in purpose for the fur. Us humans have almost driven species of animals to the brink of extinction, like the Washington State Salmons, we know pay millions a year to restoring them. Its just I think its wrong to kill them when us humans probably consume more fish then a seal does, and the world is full of plenty fish. But hey humans are apart of the food chain, and I guess it is right in a way to kill them even though I am sort of against it.

Just because you eat meat doesn't make you a murderer anyway - how many of us here have actually personally slaughtered an animal to munch upon? :p

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Originally Posted by Arche

Just because you eat meat doesn't make you a murderer anyway - how many of us here have actually personally slaughtered an animal to munch upon? :p

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Not too many of us, but it's like being an accomplice to a murder. If you know about a murder, you have to report it and do something about it or you're as guilty as the actual murderer. Same thing with knowing how animals are butchered. If I know that it's done unethically, I won't touch it and make sure that any eggs that I buy are from free range chickens who are properly fed.

Do you know how many animals are killed when they plow fields for grain? I'd say millions a year. So by eating a slice of bread, by that logic, you too are an accomplice to murder.

I'd like to catch someone beating a baby seal on the head and give them some of their own medicine. That's just really... a messed up thing to do.

Yeah, Maddox already pwned the pretentious "meat is murder" crowd. However I can absolutely understand boycotting products made from animals that were tortured or whatever. That's absolutely unnecessary.

Way up north where the air is cold
People up there ain't got no gold
Only way to make a livin'
Is clubbin' the baby seals

Thumping something on the head is actually one of the most humane ways to kill an animal. As long as you smack it quickly and hard, it won't feel a thing. Of course, you gotta calm it down before you thump it - adrenaline will make the meat tough.

I learned a lot about rabbits during survival training. Seals are pretty much the same thing.

Eating animals is natural, normal, and moral.

Killing animals for reasons that have to do with fashion etc, is wrong. Killing seals is fine, if you're going to eat them too, or at least use their bodies completly. But just taking their fur\skin is... bleh. Not good. Wasteful.

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Originally Posted by DocFrance

Thumping something on the head is actually one of the most humane ways to kill an animal. As long as you smack it quickly and hard, it won't feel a thing.

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Does one whack kill it though? (I'm being serious; I really don't know. :D)

Something tells me that in 2004 there has got to be at least one better way to end an animal's life than smashing in its skull.

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Originally Posted by Grandmaster LH

Does one whack kill it though? (I'm being serious; I really don't know. :D)

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Well, when it comes to rabbits... First you gotta dangle it upside down with your free hand. Naturally, it's going to struggle. So you've gotta calm it down my stroking its back with the stick from the tail to the ears. After it's calm and relaxed and not struggling anymore, you smack it nice and hard right at the base of the back of the skull. If you hit it hard enough, it won't feel a thing. However, if you don't know what you're doing and you don't hit it hard enough, it won't kill it. The rabbit will freak out, start screaming (rabbits do scream, and it's a horrible sound), and struggle a lot, making it very painful and very hard to put it out of its misery.

But I digress...

Mind you, this was for survival training. If I'm ever stranded in not-so-friendly territory with little or no means of survival, I'm not going to think twice about whether my survival is more important than some tasty, juicy critter's "feelings."

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Mind you, this was for survival training. If I'm ever stranded in not-so-friendly territory with little or no means of survival, I'm not going to think twice about whether my survival is more important than some tasty, juicy critter's "feelings."

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Well, naturally, but I am curious....how exactly do you hunt a rabbit with your bare hands? Just curious, because if you are talking about bumping it in the head, I presume you would not have a bow or a rifle.

Also, rabbits taste preety well >_>

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If I know that it's done unethically, I won't touch it and make sure that any eggs that I buy are from free range chickens who are properly fed.

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Problems are in the countries where the origin is not marked. Here we have a law for that, though.

wow this took off in my absance lol...i carnt remeber everyones posts so ill comment on the things that pricked my interest.

i wasnt intending this thread to debate/discuss vegetariansm/veganism or anything along those lines since this topic genreally is embraced by people of many stands in life, thus i will avoid a full blown right and wrong war in this instance.....however in another thread lol.

humans are not worth more than animals, we are all equal. theres nothing that gives us rights over others. this was the argument not so long ago when people enjoyed slaves. IF ANYTHING we have a repsonsibility to the care of all life because we have abilitys far beyound others.

YES, i would kill millions of murderes to stop the milions of millions of lifes that they would take, bush took teh same standpoint over saddam, churchill took the same standpoint over the nazis and Boudica took teh same standpoint over the romans. When one man kills and kills and kills, it's common sense to stop him and thus you save many lifes. Surely you, or anyone would want the police to do what it takes to protect you and your loved ones.

eating meat is not nessacery to living, in fact ALL the benificial elements in meat and fish are found in larger amounts in most everyday cereals etc Ive been vegetarians since i was five, when i made teh association with cows and burgers. im now vegan....im helthyer than ANYONE else i know, i wigh around 13 to 14 stone and not only do i compeate in broadsword fighting but i teach it so living the vege lifestyle IS better for you. (it helps i dont smoke or take drugs lol).
whats more research by archeologists and universitys point to meat being less than 10 percent of medieval man and befores' diet. if you want links find them yourselves lol, theres hundreds of books from ebay and permaculture which educate along these lines. In truth the only reason people eat meat is because they want to. the only reason they kill helpless baby seals is because they want to.....is anyone saying in this day and age if canada started freesing to death america would sit and watch.

there will probably be loads of posts after this lol but i wont be online again untill tomoror

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Originally Posted by Snowman

humans are not worth more than animals, we are all equal.


YES, i would kill millions of murderes to stop the milions of millions of lifes that they would take, bush took teh same standpoint over saddam, churchill took the same standpoint over the nazis and Boudica took teh same standpoint over the romans. When one man kills and kills and kills, it's common sense to stop him and thus you save many lifes. Surely you, or anyone would want the police to do what it takes to protect you and your loved ones.

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Animals are not equal to humans, nowhere near equal, no doubt about it. You would kill millions of people for killing animals? Nah, society would stop an insane animal-rights murderer in no time. Come on back to reality.

Late one night I was out a-walkin'
Underneath the Northern Lights
Saw a baby seal a-sleepin'
Nixed his animal rights

Roast 'em, Toast 'em, Roto-till 'em
Kick 'em in the head and make 'em squeal
That's how I make my livin'
Clubbin' the baby seals

Haha, classic.

then what makes you think your on the same level/equal as me..or others...what entitles you to being safe and secure....your charm, your looks or popularity, perhaps how hard you work...nothing in fact. there isnt ANYTHING on this world that says Talus is more important than other life.

society has done nothing about the atrocities happening dayly to men and women in zimbabwe where Mugabe enlists women in his army for the purpose of rape and he trains young children to practise the arts of torture and interrogation. it's even harder to find let alone stop a person/persons intent on murder if they suddenly come out of nowhere and just do it.

That's kind of sick, Talus. I wouldn't put a human life above an animal (well, I guess that depends on which human we're talking about), but humans should be above that sort of cruelty.

If I see a human baby and a puppy drowning, and I could only save one, I'd save the baby without even thinking twice. Not because I hate dogs and not because I want them to die - but because I value humans more than any other animal.

Vegeterianism on the basis of morality is, in my humble opinion, complete and utter bull. Lios eat zebras, snakes eat mice, cows eat grass... and we eat animals and plants too. Despite what some think, we are not gods on this earth, and we cannot disconnect ourselves from its ancient ways. Just because you're a rich Westerner with access to fancy foods and synthetic $hit that can somehow replace the natural ingredients found in meat, doesn't mean it's the right way. It doesn't mean that you can live without meat. Try living without your tofu crap for a while - see how well you do.

EDIT: Oh, Talus and DocFrance - without shooting the rabbit, how do you seize it? It's very fast and agile, far more than a human. And if you're using traps - why not use ones that kill it too?

i'm am constantly irrated by the twisted morality that precives empathy towards animals, i simply do not care and will carefree eat, wear or smoke whatever animal i want as long it doesn't bring it to the point of extinction.

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Originally Posted by gokufusionss1

i'm am constantly irrated by the twisted morality that precives empathy towards animals, i simply do not care and will carefree eat, wear or smoke whatever animal i want as long it doesn't bring it to the point of extinction.

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Could you explain how it's twisted to desire a smaller amount of torture for animals to have to deal with?

I don't believe animals feel pain the same way as humans. Pain without a rational mind to understand the pain isn't the same as the pain of a human being. To an animal, getting a shot at the vet is the same as getting poked with a needle by some insane guy just because he thinks it's fun; they understand neither, they feel the same pain for both.

Animals will kill each other indiscriminately, according to instinct. I used to have a cat, who'd torture mice to death. Literally torture; he'd bat them around, let them almost get away and then pounce on them, and eventually when the mouse was battered to the point where it was crippled or near death, he'd kill it, and leave its corpse lying there. The cat didn't care. What's more, I think the mouse didn't care. Because animals can't "care", so far as I know, at least not in the same way as humans. The mouse tried to get away because pain=bad is hard-wired into its brain, and for no other reason. The cat killed the mouse because hunting=good is hardwired into its brain.

That said, I dislike seeing animals abused. People should know better than to put any creature through unnecessary pain. Seeing a person with no empathy for the pain of a baby seal somehow clicks in my mind into seeing that person as having no empathy for human pain either. People are supposed to be empathetic to the pain of other creatures, it seems to me.

All depends on the definition of "necessary" though. Like I said, killing a cow is necessary, in my opinion. Maybe to some people, seal coats are necessary. Beats me. So long as it's all semi-humane, I have nothing much against it.

humans are not worth more than animals, we are all equal. --Snowman

If you truly believe this, you're insane. Which do you value more, the life of a mouse or your own life? The life of a cow, or the life of your own mother or father? The life of a goldfish, or the life of your daughter or son?

If you decide to act upon your beliefs, I'm thankful that there are laws to stop you, and other people who don't value human life.

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Originally Posted by Snowman

YES, i would kill millions of murderes to stop the milions of millions of lifes that they would take, bush took teh same standpoint over saddam, churchill took the same standpoint over the nazis and Boudica took teh same standpoint over the romans. When one man kills and kills and kills, it's common sense to stop him and thus you save many lifes. Surely you, or anyone would want the police to do what it takes to protect you and your loved ones.

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You're a hypocrite. Before you go yelling that I'm flaming you, hear me out. What gives you the right to judge other people based on your moral beliefs, and then act on that judgement by taking their lives as you see fit? Normally, I'd have nothing against vegetarians, as long as they keep their beliefs out of my business. I couldn't care less if they contradict thmeselves. However, the moment you begin to impose your beliefs on others, your morals become subject to scrutiny.

Here's a question: where do you draw the line? Insects are animals, too. Do you walk around avoiding every insignificant ant on the sidewalk, because they have rights as well? Did you know that you kill thousands of insects with your own hands just by washing your hair? And like I said before, animals are killed when farmers plow their crops. If you choose to arbitrarily draw the line anywhere, you are a hypocrite.

You say that animals have the same rights as humans. If that's so, why aren't animals allowed to vote? Maybe we should put every animal through public education. Animals should also be able to hold a position in government, pay taxes, get married, and basically do everything that humans are allowed to. If you truly believe that animals have the same rights as humans, then you will agree with the above statements. If not, you are a hypocrite.

I don't care if you're a vegetarian. I don't even care if you're a hypocrite about it. You could walk around with your nose in the air like your farts don't stink because you think you're better than the rest of these "murderers," and I couldn't give two craps. But when you say that you're willing to kill other human beings because of what you perceive to be wrong, then your farts better be the sweetest-smelling thing on Earth.

Meanwhile, I'm going to sit back and enjoy a nice, juicy T-bone steak. What, do you want to kill me for that?

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Originally Posted by Talus

EDIT: Oh, Talus and DocFrance - without shooting the rabbit, how do you seize it? It's very fast and agile, far more than a human. And if you're using traps - why not use ones that kill it too?

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Good question. If you're in a survival situation, you won't have many tools available to you. If you're lucky and you have a bit of metal wire, you can use it for a makeshift choke snare. You loop it around itself, making sure one of the ends points inwards, and tie it to a tree. Find a rodent hole and put the snare against the opening so that is imperceivable to the rodent. When it pops its head out or in, the end of the snare will snag on its fur, and quickly close the loop around it. Of course, this is if you're very lucky. This isn't meant for rabbits, since they're much to big for such a simple trap. It's mostly for smaller rodents like chipmunks and squirrels. It's highly doubtful that you'll have any tools available to make a trap that would kill the animal. Again, this is a survival situation, and I wouldn't think twice before putting my needs before those of an animal. Besides, in such a situation, its best to eat other things - local plants, though you have to be very familiar with what's poisonous and what's not; and insects. Ants are very high in protein and taste like lemon drops.

Damn it, Snowman, what you say makes no sense. Animals do not have the same rights, mainly because rights are not something natural, rights are something done by humans to allow them to exist in society. If humans didn't exist, do you think animals would organize to discuss their rights?

There is a declaration of human rights and a declaration of animal rights. As long as animal rights are respected, I'm fine. Yeah, I do go to animal rights demonstrations and trout. And yes, animal rights are not respected, so kinda...worry more about that than about making all the world become vegetarian through mass-murder of human beings. Oh, human rights are not respected either, another thing to worry about. Actually, I wonder if there is a country where such rights are respected.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus

Actually, I wonder if there is a country where such rights are respected.

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The US, contrary to popular belief. Most countries in Europe, as well as a few others scattered here and there.

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The US, contrary to popular belief. Most countries in Europe, as well as a few others scattered here and there.

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I believe I do not need to reply to that. I mean, geez, I use to get all repetitive and stuff, and my opinions that refer to such an issue have been repeated many times already. I don't think I should bother.

So, tell me, how is Guantanamo a violation of human rights? Please tell me, using concrete evidence to support your claims.

http://www.clubcultura.com/haymotivo/video07.htm


Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.


Yes, the video is in Spanish. But the images speak for themselves.

I see nothing in that video that shows a violation of human rights on the part of the US government.

No, except for the fact they are standing blinded of their senses to the Caribbean sun, sitting in a position that dosen't allow them to move. Or for the fact they are being dragged along as animals, or being trated in a humilliating way, or trapped inside there with no evidence whatsoever of their guilt while not getting a fair trail.

But thats OK, eat your ****ing hamburger, drink Coca Cola, Uncle Sam loves you. Everything is right, everything is fine and dandy. (Repeat it over three million times until people actually believe it).


Hail this orgy of patriots in possesion of truth!

I don't understand why it isn't possible to care for both animals and humans. I can't imagine too many situations where I'd have to put humans before animals, so the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. If, to quote an example used already, there were a baby and a dog drowning, then I'd save the baby first. But I'd have a damn good try at saving the dog as well. Life is valuable, be it human, mammal, bird etc.

As for seal culling: I don't know about the situation in Canada, but over here the seal populations are too large. Stocks of riverine fish have increased over the past two decades, and seals have no natural predators around the British Isles. When something like the dystemper virus comes along, it's nature's way of balancing out the population. Unfortunately, humans then go and vaccinate the seals! Crazy.

in realtion to me being a rich westerner -
actually i hate the taste of toffu.....i mainly eat potatoes..i carnt stop, chips (not crisps lol) crisps mash etc, thats what i was brought up on because i come from a poor estate. sunday dinners with vegetable gravy carrots and pease...no sprouts..i swear they are alien lol. currently ive finished my photography degree which i could only get because my parents earn to little and im following my illustration since i became award winning.

i will always hear someone out doc france.....otherwise there would be no point in posting.
im not a hypocrit. i wish to stop as much killing as i can. a man kills 20 men and will kill more he must be stopped if at all possible by peacful means, but due to my experiance with people who do cruelty to animals they raise their fists to me before i get a chance. wouldnt you say that we should stop those who would kill for the fun of it, those who delibertly go out to hurt others and cause us and others pain. jesus asked and the badguys continued. we had to stop germany, in the past we had to stop rome. it's wrong to kill. me killing to save life doesnt make me right, im still wrong and guilty.
if im walking along the street and find a worm on the path i put it back in teh soil, i try to cause teh least harm i can.
we put children through education over here and they come out worse than animals, thats a fact since our educational system in briton is in crisis. we have abilitys and skills animals dont.....they carnt go shopping at morrisons. Miranda, a house chican loves to sit on the back of teh sofa while i draw, she loves watching my art....she hates watching teh tweenies and loves dick van dyke, im happy to leave the TV on for her while i help in the garden. if Holly our dog cared about voting i would let her.
im no better than anyone else, i just try to live a life with less blood on my hands

Shadow, animals have rights within their own cultures which differ. as for aliens well who knows. if an animal does what we do and thinks should we give it rights or exclude it. in the past we thought slave nations werent human. time is a man made concept, or rather how we measure it yet we apply it to the stars. then again rights differ between humans...americans belive they have the rights to carry dangerous guns.....the british barely have any..look at the islamic world and it's subdugation of women while the ancient celts were ruled by them.

i wouldnt want to use the USA as a symbol of rights, it's a shambles, but thats another story.

im limiting my internet time hence so long since i repleid.

burt, natures also makeing more men infertaile this century and women incapable of pregnancy to cut our number......so now we go looking at testubes while others are happy to murder their babys via abortion.

Edit by Big D: Please use the 'edit/delete' button instead of double-posting.

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Originally Posted by Leeza

That's kind of sick, Talus.

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Nah, that's part of a military marching cadence, I saw DocFrance use a part of it and I couldn't resist.

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Originally Posted by Snowman

if Holly our dog cared about voting i would let her.

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Wait... What?

And on the whole Vegetarian thing, has anyone seen those billboards? I was out with my unit today and I saw this one that said, "Meat Causes Cancer... Go Vegetarian". Does PETA realize how ridiculous they make themselves look? If someone wants to be a vegetarian that's their business, but scaring people into joining their ranks seems a little bizarre.

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if Holly our dog cared about voting i would let her.

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Do you want to make the world a Monty Python comedy?

Well, it would be better than the current world...


Who would the dog vote? And flies? Can flies vote? Can they make a political organization? There are a lot of flies, what if they develop nucelar weapons and take over the world? Then through dictatorship force all the humans to work in their terrible mines o fly stuff like...crap, or something.

Woah, this is the end.

Since this is about the seal killing: I'm against that. Seals are endangered and protected almost everywhere, now the Canadian government claims there are too many of them, and they must be turned into overcoats.

Now for the other subjects: I'm not vegetarian, so I don't have a problem with killing other species for food. But torturing them first is wrong, so I'm against the "meat industry", especially here in Holland, where new diseases are created annually by feeding chickens to sheep and vice versa.

I respect it when people choose to be vegetarian. I just don't like it when they call me a murderer for eating meat, or claim that it harms the environment. Soy farms destroy the rain forest, so throw the first stone! And if animals had the same rights as humans in human society, the meat-eating ones would eat us, too.

don't worry if youre really bored of kentucky fried chicken theyre bringing out a replacement montreal roasted seal

nature depicts that some things die other things live hell look at me I wanted to die and I lived...*light bulb above head* I know I'm gonna dress up as a seal and go to canada for the slaughter!

This thread is not about vegetarianism. This thread is about the unnecessarily cruel way in which animals are treated...in this case, the clubbing of the seals in Canada. I'm vegetarian, that's my choice. I don't call people who aren't vegetarians murderers, but treating animals inhumanely just to save some money is disgusting and sadistic, in my opinion. Any living thing deserves to have it's life respected. If you want to eat it or just wear it's beautiful skin, it's possible to do so with minimal pain to the animal.

personally in that respect my opinion is we ought to eat what we kill hell we all know that people in this world are starving even if it was seal meat they would enjoy the meal also in norway it is or was a delicacy so if we were killing the seals then using the oils for fuel and the meat to feed starving people, used the skins for clothing (at the end of the day we ate the meat and burned the blubber maybe used the bones for something, anything I don't know cutlery handles or decorations like Ivory we may as well wear the skin) then in my opinon it would be justified to cull the seals but alas we are not and so I do condemm it but I have a twisted sense of humour. Also is it too much to ask to put a bullet in the seals brain painlessly?

Also is it too much to ask to put a bullet in the seals brain painlessly? - Fallen Angel 666

Apparently it is because the bullet might miss and damage some of the fur. You also then have to pay for rifles and bullets.

just stupid really isn't it? ok well how about a fatally powerful tazer shot? (and yes I have been tazered it stings but doesnt truly hurt)

personally in that respect my opinion is we ought to eat what we kill --Fallen_angel_666

Do they not eat seals that they kill for fur? Is seal even edible? If it's edible and if they just kill seals for fur and discard the rest, that's a terrible waste, yes.

I don't really know how humane you can get when you're killing animals on a large scale. A bullet isn't humane, no, because you can miss and wound the animal without killing it. I don't really know how animals are slaughtered in general, but I imagine never with bullets. I imagine many animals have their necks broken or something of that sort; a broken neck / severed spine is instant death, so far as I know, and probably as painless as you can get while still being efficient.

seal meat is indeed edible as I said it was a delicacy in norway also it is a historical dish of the viking ages

Tal, alot of current research points towards eating meat causeing the activation of inherint cancers your born with. we all have tiny dormant amounts of cancers in us but for most of us nothing will ever happen....but for some they do get triggerd. links have been found between what you get from eating meat and what triggers cancers to awaken.....but they dont want to get this wrong and so the reasearch continues the same way the debate over smoking has gone on forever untill finally people carnt claim it's good for them.

shadow....you posed teh question.....i answeared it. if flys did turn up tomoror with atomic weapons...would people still blindly say they were dumb because they didnt speak english and werent human or would people try to communicate because they wear bioharzad suits and are invulnerable to chemical warefare. this is theoritical......but rights are for life, not simply humans - life rights.

nem - the simply reaons why most vege/.vegan's say that being a meateater (even if you dont kill animals) is being a murderer is because we see that by eating meat you are supporting the killing of animals. the same way if you wear real furr, no matter what you say your supporting the furr trade. if you know whats happening in zimbabwe and the horrors there and dont voice your oppionion against it your letting it happen and supporting it.....see what i mean. over here in briton theres a big thing about the fact that while gays and lesbians can get wed....they carnt get married which means they dont have ANY of the legal rights that married couples do.....benefits, entitlements not to mention if one partner dies....the other gets nothing, not even a peice of memrobilia. in thgis case if you support the throry not to allow gays to marry your actually saying they are an underclass.....see.

nature has tried many times to kill us off, yet we complain and are still here. but because we **** up an eco system...for example mankind has over fished many of the seas, we take it out on another speicies. the fact is quite often when a race begins to over breed for the food supply it has it actually slows down again and breeds less.....but that isnt fast enough for teh greed of mankind who wants to eat everything.

LEEZA - i said that earlyer. i never intended to make this a vege thread...only about the seals. but it doesnt do any ahrm to answear peoples questions. then again there is no right way to wear an animals skin..just ckeck out the sites on anal electricution on furr farms.

FALLEN - we currently grow enough crops etc to feed teh world, however many of whats left is discarded with. then again in a starving situation....why not human meat, theres more meat there than on most animals. i know many meat eaters who think it's not a bad idea to farm the humans in third world countries to provide more meat.

i talked with someone else about other less painful ways to cull. in most cases the reasons these things erupt is mans fault. but have anyone heard of nuturing, of being sterilised. while i would never condone it, it is possible in a number of painful and unpainful ways to slow down or compleatly stop reproduction. it's happening naturally in man today as we become more and more infertile. when asked would i rather starve other life i pointed out how starvation is a peacefuller death than clubbing. your stomach hurts and your body shrivals, but eventually you simply pass way in your sleep never knowing rather than screaming your last breaths for help and never being heard. Dr Unne reminded me of a point, you dont take your pet to the vets and then they club it's brains out on the table......nor do they whip out a shotgun and fire away.

SPROUTS ARE EDIBLE>>>BUT HOW MANY OF US CAN STOMACH THEM

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Originally Posted by Snowman

i know many meat eaters who think it's not a bad idea to farm the humans in third world countries to provide more meat.

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You know many meat eaters that want to harvest people? Who do you hang-out with?

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Originally Posted by Snowman

when asked would i rather starve other life i pointed out how starvation is a peacefuller death than clubbing.

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So, you're for a slow painful death through starvation over a quick and painless blow to the head?

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shadow....you posed teh question.....i answeared it. if flys did turn up tomoror with atomic weapons...would people still blindly say they were dumb because they didnt speak english and werent human or would people try to communicate because they wear bioharzad suits and are invulnerable to chemical warefare. this is theoritical......but rights are for life, not simply humans - life rights.

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What if they use slingshots? I think this is a very important issue to discuss about. Seriously.

lol Tal.....i was surpised as well. actually it was one old school pal, three people at university and a chap i met online on a transformers board who also said that if you dont pull your wight in society you should be left behind......you get all sorts.

theres nothing painless about being clubbed over the head.....have you ever had it done to you. watching this brutal person just walk up to you with a blood gorred club while your eyes fill with terror, your unable to run or escape as you wiggle on the ice and snow or even nievely look up at your assailant. screaming for help while the pain fills your entire existance and nothing can save you...watching your lovedones and fellows being murderd the same way. yes i would rather die in my sleep, hecne why we dont go around clubbing our pets or death sentanced criminals.

shadow.....the ancient celts used slingshots against teh invading romans. the romans never actually did anything than invade and assimilate like the borg, they were the nazis of their day while the celts created wonderful works of art in bronze and gold of the stars them selves.

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shadow.....the ancient celts used slingshots against teh invading romans. the romans never actually did anything than invade and assimilate like the borg, they were the nazis of their day while the celts created wonderful works of art in bronze and gold of the stars them selves.

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OK, first flies with slingshots and now Star Treck. This is getting too sad, stop it or I'll kill a kitten. With my teeth.

ozzy osbourne beat you to it only he ate a snake or a bat

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Originally Posted by Snowman

lol Tal.....i was surpised as well. actually it was one old school pal, three people at university and a chap i met online on a transformers board who also said that if you dont pull your wight in society you should be left behind......you get all sorts.

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So five people equates to "many"?

thats not funny shadow...thats sad.
but if you look historically all the romans did was assimilate other cultures gods and technoligies.

when you consider DOC that one man last night fought his way through the class and killed everyone without taking a wound (i take my prize with a grin), or that anyone one of those five is likly to have freinds who think similaryly to them who inturn got it from somewhere. it only takes one mans veiw to change a world when likeminded people embrace it. or should i make it a quest to travel the world on a shoe string and find as many people as there are out there who agree with this so i can come back and list them all in detail.

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Originally Posted by Snowman

thats not funny shadow...thats sad.

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What is sad? I'm sorry, but I fail to understand your posts.

Sorry if this is completely irrelevant to what this conversation/debate has become. I really didn't feel like reading through 50 billion posts.

Please, no one take offense to the things I say. If you really think that humans and animals are equal, then there's really something wrong. Animals act on instinct. They don't feel love or hate. They don't have consciences. Their thoughts are usually, "Hunt. Run. Eat. Kill. Fornication." When it's mating season, they fornicate the nearest and most attractive female/male they see. Animals don't have personalities. They can't choose their mate because of personality.

You say that it's absolutely horrible to kill animals for food, Snow, but you wouldn't hesitate to kill every bastard that has laid a finger on an animal. That's the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard. Adult male lions kill cubs that aren't part of their tribes for no reason, do you see a problem with that? Do we humans kill children and babies that aren't part of our families?

Conscience. The ability to think beyond our natural instincts. These things are what differentiates us from animals and make us superior. Our minds help us to advance in life and whatnot. Animals cannot do that. You don't see kangaroos making submarines; you don't see fish making suits that allow them to survive on land. No matter how you look at it, humans are superior to animals. We are not equal.

Conscience. The ability to think beyond our natural instincts. These things are what differentiates us from animals and make us superior. Our minds help us to advance in life and whatnot. Animals cannot do that. - SomethingBig

Exactly. That is what this thread is about. Humans should be able to use their minds to advance and get above unnecessary cruelty, but some just don't and I have no compassion for these people.

"Adult male lions kill cubs that aren't part of their tribes for no reason, do you see a problem with that?"

Lions don't kill them for no reason. The point of mating is to further your own DNA (in the lion world). Other cubs pose a threat to that, so they're killed, and the male mates with their mothers. It seems cruel to us, but that's the way their society works, if you can call it that. There's always a reason.

"These things are what differentiates us from animals and make us superior. Our minds help us to advance in life and whatnot. Animals cannot do that. You don't see kangaroos making submarines; you don't see fish making suits that allow them to survive on land. No matter how you look at it, humans are superior to animals. We are not equal."

I think we're more advanced than animals, but I don't think we're superior. Humans tend to be so ego centric. We're killing the Earth and we don't care. We're advancing, but also breeding to the point where we're exceeding the capacity of the Earth. Is that really superiority? We're also stupid. We won't stop advancing, and in doing so, I think we'll destroy ourselves. Or at least do a lot of damage. I tend to be a pessimist when it comes to the future of humanity though.

We may create a lot of wonderful things, but we also destroy. I think it balances out. Animals can't do evil, they don't have the capacity, but because they don't, they also can't do good in the same way. Humans do both. That's why I think we're equal.

On the seals: Yeah, that sucked. Fur is wrong, and ugly. However, I have read statitics that the seal population in the north atlantic was millions upon millions of seals, and was having a negative effect on fish populations. That particular species of seal is NOT endangered, threatened or even close to the sort. There's a lot of kinds of seals, y'know. Please consider these things before you get on your PETA high horse.

Hm, how do you justify being cruel to animals like that? I mean, why are their rights dealing with pain so different from ours? We feel pain in the same way. I don't think sentience should make such a big difference. If a species more advaned than us decided I needed to be clubbed, I wouldn't be very happy.

joking about murdering kittens shadow.....i dont appriciate it

Somethingbig - im afriad your wrong on your first point Somthingbig.....ive been involved with animals all my life and they do indeed have personalities and emotions such as love and hate. but as always you have to not be prejudgemental and allow them to prove it themselves.
you dont have to worry, theres nothing wrong. Theres nothign on this earth that says mankind is worth more or above other life on this planet or even in existance. certainly you could follow relligions which may claim so...but they are also responsible for major wars throughout histpory and often have stolen celebrations and idea from previsous religions such as christianity stealing easter form the pagans and germanic origins. your right that animals do act on their nature, they are not able to go shopping at morrisons or learn mathmatics....while we who are simply animals are able to because one way or the other we have a gift or curse. Heard that old spidy sentance - with great power comes great responsibility. yet we are still obssesd with our own viloent nature and want to fornicate and reproduce.....

im not hypocritical and if you HAD read through all of my posts you would have read me explain exactly what i meant. as too the points you made, yes we do, heard of abortion. or the fact that children are sold into rape and slavery in many third world countries such as the current debacle in zimbabwe.

by your logic the aboriginies who were behind the times compared to the advances of those who would settle on australia are below us....that too applys to the indians native to america who did not have guns and silly hats. technological accomplishment entitles us to nothing, it gives us no god given rights....we also created weapons capable of killing everything on this earth. doesnt make us supirior as the nazis claimed....it makes us dangerous.

GOOD POINT LEEZA. ive often noticed how people want to be above instincts and animals nature...yet they enjoy acting like many animals. we carnt have it both ways

great points Emerald Aeris. however pertaining seals. ive said many times that the problems of this world and the chaos animals are thrown into is often caused by mankind....for example if we hadnt depleate fish stocks so recently to the point where they are scarce then the seals may not have overgrown this way. i also made no assosication with PETA.
you should read some of my other posts where i point out that there are many differning ways to get population spurts undercontrol that dont involve the brutal murder of the creatures involved

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joking about murdering kittens shadow.....i dont appriciate it

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Uh, well, I'll eat babies then :D

No, seriously, I doubt I could ever harm an animal, unless it was in self defense, of course. Now, going a little off topic, I remember this guy at my grandparent's town who used that "toy" gun (It shoots small balls, in Spanish it's called "balines") to shoot cats, aiming specially at the head of kittens. I tried to stop him by sepaking to their parents about what he was doing (He was my age, 12, those "toy" guns are legal for 16 and up). His parents ignored me (Nice how they take care of the children) so I atempted to speak with him, he just threatened me with his stupid gun. So I just took his gun and broke the clip. It felt really good, even if I had to run away from him because he was pissed. Bah, screw him, I hate those kind of people. Schopenhauer said that anyone who is cruel to an animal is a bad person to humans too, and I can agree.

What's ironic about all this is that PETA is in support of the culling, and that they're asking the NRA for help in dealing with the seals in the most humane fashion possible. From the Washington Post:

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Two organizations you'd never think would get in bed together: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and the National Rifle Association. But PETA's ever-imaginative president, Ingrid Newkirk, sent a letter Friday to NRA President Kayne Robinson, asking for the organization's help in training seal-killers in Canada to use rifles instead of the traditional method, bludgeoning: "In this age of sophisticated weaponry, many are still crudely killed with primitive cudgels. . . . Won't you stand with us in seeking a quick kill?" NRA officials did not return our calls yesterday.

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PETA and the NRA... I feel like I've woken up in some sort of bizzarro world.

The NRA...I think of it and I already feel a wonderful toilet smell. A toilet used 24/7 and without being cleaned in 20 years (all this for not saying trout and getting edited by the mods...oops! I said it! And it was unecessary cursing!!!!!1111oneoneone).

you did right shadow....over here in the UK many poeple who get airifles and related guns dont shoot at animals for long, and since theres barly any firearms here kids get shot in the eyes etc. when i was a kid doing a disply (see the FFweapons thread i did) i heard shots and found two illegal hunters shooting rabbits, i told them to stop, thye did because i ruined their sport and because i was alone they wanderd up to me, threatend to gut the hares they had got all over me and then stuffed a loaded shotgun up my nose. i was under 12...and alone, but i stood my ground which freaked them.....damn at that age i was sword fighting....luckliy for me some of the others heard teh shots alos and others came....shocked at these guys with a gun to my, a kids head, so the hunters left quickly.....youd be surrpised how many times ive had to stop people likewise.

good observation Doc, i had no idea.....thank god i made no refferance to them in this thread...you wouldnt think it would you.....but then the church says be kind with one hand and then instigates holy wars with teh other. this is why i stand so vehemently by what I say. because at the end of the day, common sense makes more sense than other people. our own bodys tell us that hurt is wrong via pain - you either stand for the right thing or you dont......thus endith the lesson.

we dont club murderes anymore.....nor our pets at teh vets.
i would prefer to see a world where no one died horribly, i dont want to have to kill people, if i did i would be as guilty as them.....but that wouldnt change the fact that if i did i would be saving many lifes in the future.

Snowman, how can someone point a loaded gu at a human being, for God's sake? Some people are preety :love::love::love::love:ing sick, good thing you didin't run away. I wouldn't have either...I'd be too scared to move ^^

i tell ya shadow..it was one of those instinct moments. i was only a kid, but ive always been calm underthreat...which isnt always good for me lol. once i was in art colledge and this lad, im now currently teaching broadsword to, picked up my knife....a proper knife and held it millimeters from my eye. you can guess i was scared....damn straight, but i knew that if i moved he would stab me by accident, the best thing to do was stay really still and tell him to stop messing around. he still does stupid things today. things like that rarely scare me.....it's showing my illusatrations off and working tills that scares me. Oh man this is funny, there was this one time....while in uni i worked in a sci-fi store called forbiddon planet international. i had just been working teh till which was messing up and i was panicking....finally got off it and began to tidy teh graphic novels when this man stood next to me drops something heavy.....i look down because it hit's my trainers, and there on my foot is a hand gun. what do i do....i look up at him, he's not a man but a stupid studant and calmly i say "put it away" in a voice which makes him look pathetic. he stoops down, snatches it up, hiding it in his pocket and runs off. and my heart didnt even skip a beat. it wasnt untill three days later i discoverd it was only a detailed replica sold by a market stall across town. the other staff trout themselves when my mother let it slip.

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Originally Posted by Snowman

YES, i would kill millions of murderes to stop the milions of millions of lifes that they would take, bush took teh same standpoint over saddam, churchill took the same standpoint over the nazis and Boudica took teh same standpoint over the romans. When one man kills and kills and kills, it's common sense to stop him and thus you save many lifes. Surely you, or anyone would want the police to do what it takes to protect you and your loved ones.

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and so tell us. what gives you the right to judge people that murder? in that case does that give us a right to judge you as you murder the murderers? :P
in that case everyone should murder everyone eh? so what next? suggesting anarchy is the right way a government should be run (or not run :P )

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so what next? suggesting anarchy is the right way a government should be run (or not run :P )

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Um...yes :D

i never said i have the right to judge Xenapan. if i go about murdering, for whatever reason then im guilty too and ill accept my punishment. just because you kill for the right reason does not absolve you of any guilt or crime. But in the same question...what gives highly payed officials and a bunch of people taken out of work and family life the right to judge. Why does goverment be aloud to judge and those who were victimised are often dragged through more mud or never heard.
I try to live my life by causeing the least pain i can, thats the most basic drive behind vegetariansm. i understand and acknoledge im still causeing pain and killing something, even if i aborsebed solar radiation (thus not needing to eat) i couldnt stop the unseeable microbs that pass into my body- because im not a god. im a stained person like everyone else, but the differnce is i accept the bad things i have done and i try to do better. it's common sense that we dont want to be hurt and abused by others. we dont want to be beaten, robbed and raped. it's wrong to abuse children.....and yet in many countries this is everyday life and our governments dont take any notice. if my only resort is to kill an opponant who is killing others, then i will do it to save lives, and accept the penalty.

But i would prefer to destroy ALL of humanity on this planet in one fell swoop simply to stop the hurt. over all we havent brought anything useful to this planet or it's inhabitant's, we simply over breed and pullute and take. im not racist....i would destroy all mankind, and yes im aware that would include myself and my family who agree with me.

Yes, you are saying that you can judge people. By taking other peoples' lives into your hands and saying, based on your own morals, that they are no longer worthy of living, you are judging them. Even when you say that you're no better than them. You're a hypocrite.

the juding you refer to is differnt to what Xenapan refferd to. everybody makes assumptions and judgements about people everyday, if they have long hair or smell differnt. in that sense it is impossible for anyone not to judge. i refferd to the right to judge because of being morally or humanically supirior, which i am neither. the way a court has the right to judge.....i questiond what gave them the rights over us. a police man must judge a situation, how much force does he use, is the person in question a threat or not, this is the way i "judge" an act and person. with no bias other than to protect life. of course it's my morality that dictates my want to protect life as surely as murders lack of it grants them the ability to take life. im actually NOT a hypocrit because i understand it's wrong to kill and i would be punished, but im willing to go that far to protect life. i WOULD be a hypocrit if i said i should not be punished for killing but they should.....i never said that.

Accepting punishment for murdering innocent people doesn't make it right to do so.

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im not racist....i would destroy all mankind, and yes im aware that would include myself and my family who agree with me.

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Dude, buy a "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" manual and play a Red Talon, it will be terapheutical for you.

I prefer Stargazers, it's wonderful to have a class where they force you to be pedantic and quote Plato or Lao Tse.

"The not being exists, yet not as an absolut concept"
-Plato

Why that quote? BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE SHOWING EVERYONE I'VE READ "The Sophist"!!!!

THATS MY WHOLE POINT DOC, it doesnt make it right. it isnt right when a police officer shoots a nutcase, but if i have to in defence of myself or others i will, and i accept whaever punishement i get for it. If i was in denial about this then i would be a hypocrit, if i expected to be priased for murder then i would be mad.

i like werewolfs