Here it is.
http://www.intellectualconservative....ticle3444.html
Please discuss. But then again, I'm betting most people will just ignore this because it's from a conservative website.
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Here it is.
http://www.intellectualconservative....ticle3444.html
Please discuss. But then again, I'm betting most people will just ignore this because it's from a conservative website.
He shouldn't have hesitated to shoot those children.
That wasn't an easy read.
I won't comment on his actions, because god knows what I'd do in that situation. War is terrible.
I don't see what's there to discuss... it's sad, that's all I have to say.
DocFrance, I really wish you'd stop assuming that all of us "liberals" are so close-minded and set in our ways that we won't look at something simply because it is conservative.
This is war. This is what happens in war. I am not surprised, I don't think the man has anything to be ashamed of, my only qualm is, as always, that we are there, and that it is happening in the first place. I do not like hearing of children being killed, but as I said this is war, and war is either kill or be killed.
It may be conservative...BUT IT'S INTELLECTUAL CONSERVATIVES!!!!11111ONEONE
Thanks.Quote:
DocFrance, I really wish you'd stop assuming that all of us "liberals" are so close-minded and set in our ways that we won't look at something simply because it is conservative.
Anyway, no, there is not much to discuss. I just have to say something: Unne, he hesitated to shoot the kids because, oh, big surprise, he's a human being, not a killing machine. In fact, I am surprised he did not describe what he may feel after doing that. I mean, I guess that at the moment of the shooting you don't even think of it, but I guess that after awakening in the hospital you would not feel too good about it. But well, he's a soldier, not a writer, so I don't expect any great narration, yet I don't believe he must feel to well about what he did, justified or not.
By the way, completly off topic, in one of the moments, the driver said "Oh my God" and they censored God (G**). Since when is God a bad word?
Yes very sad and I agree with un he shouldn't have hesitated to shoot those children. They were shooting at him. they were the enemy.
For God's sake, they were childrens. Would you :love: kill a child without even hesitating? If you do, then please, seek medical help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert
If they're shooting at me then yes I would. I would rather live.
Interesting coming from the "religious right" isn't it?Quote:
By the way, completly off topic, in one of the moments, the driver said "Oh my God" and they censored God (G**). Since when is God a bad word?
If I were attacked by a child, I may kill them to save my own life, but I'd probably go for taking them out of action personally. But that is war, and I can understand the adreneline and panic involved.
And you would not hesitate nor feel remorse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert
I don't believe you.
This article makes me wonder why people volunteer to join the army.
Well, it used to use the whole education, salaries and work thing. Well, now it's the agressive FIGHT TERROR message thing. Depends on when people joined, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skogs
I never said I woulnd't feel remorse. But If someone anyone is shooting at me and is intending to kill me and I have a loaded weapon in my hands I will fire back even if it was my own mother. I know they were just young kids but hell I'm only 18 I still have a long life ahead of me. And in this instance he gave them a chance to get away the first time by not firing I may have done the same I don't know I'm not there. But I can tell you that I would NEVER give them another chance. It'e war and most of us have never been there. All I can say is that at this very moment I feel that yes I would open fire on those children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus
It's happened several times before, so I falsely assumed it would happen again. Please forgive me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Behold the Void
I would also shoot back, ultimately it's me or them, but how can anyone here, doing something like that for the first time, say that they wouldn't hesitate? I really don't know if that's even possible. Not without hesitation anyway. You're not the Terminator. I doubt you can turn off your compassion just because they're firing at you, especially if you've never done it before!
That article is just sick. I don't understand how someone can hide behind women and children, or make children fight. How the hell can they justify themselves? What can they be thinking? What possible motive could drive them to such acts? Stories like that make me rethink my position against the war.
Exactly they also hide in mosquses where US soldiers wont fire since we feel that churches and such shouldn't be invaded by our troops. Also we don't fight durring their praying times yet they attack whenever however they feel. We "torture" some soldiers and the entire world is on our backs. Yet look how they fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Aeris
Maybe those children would have never fought if it was not for the war.Quote:
Stories like that make me rethink my position against the war.
No, no, not "torture", but torture. And you can ask responsabilities to a state or an army. You cannot do that with a terrorist group, because a terrorist group is supposed to- intrinsecally- violate those rights, and thus the denounce occurs because of them being terrorists, not "terrorists that torture".Quote:
We "torture" some soldiers and the entire world is on our backs. Yet look how they fight.
Um...I don't know if I am explaining myself: It's not the same for an army that claims to defend freedom to torture than it is for a terrorist group. Armies are not supposed to torture.
All I'm trying to say is that no one says good job US for following these rules and doing the right thing by not attacking their holy places and such. All people do is shoot down the US and say how bad we are.
Of course, it's quite all right. I've known several conservatives to be that way, so I know the feeling quite well.Quote:
It's happened several times before, so I falsely assumed it would happen again. Please forgive me.
Perhaps because we invaded their homeland? Under questionable pretenses? I can personally understand their anger, if not their methods, but the fact remains, war is an ugly, ugly business, and people will do what they have to to survive. They use women as shields, you would gun down children. It all comes down to survival of the fittest.Quote:
All I'm trying to say is that no one says good job US for following these rules and doing the right thing by not attacking their holy places and such. All people do is shoot down the US and say how bad we are.
If we should ever need an example of humanity at its most primitive state, we have but to look at the way we resolve our differences.
I agree with you about that. War does show the real side of humans I think atleast and I wish there were other ways for countrys to settle things without fighting but I feel that a quote from Gundam wing would be best used here "as long as there is man on Earth, there will always be battles" I think it's just a part of human nature to fight for what we belive in as we are now. We are disputing about what we believe in. I'm sure most others feel the exact opposite of this but well it seems most others see things the exact opposite as me on most things :)
"We "torture" some soldiers and the entire world is on our backs."
Don't put it in quotes. Those soldiers WERE tortured. The world SHOULD be on your back. As far as I'm concerned, the disturbed individuals hiding behind children have been raised on twisted social and religious propaganda, and ignorance, which has profoundly affected their morals. What are the US soldiers' reasons? They should know better. And it was covered up for a year. Don't make it like the incident wasn't equally as disgusting as what the Iraqis did in that article, it just doesn't happen as often. Because the US claims to be invading to improve the country, I'd say it's pretty important we make sure that you AREN'T doing things like what happened in that prison, especially since it was covered up! A lot of people HAD to have known what was going on. I think that shows that there must be a fair degree of corruption somewhere along the lines of command.
Evil acts are evil acts. You aren't exonerated by any means because they're worse.
"Maybe those children would have never fought if it was not for the war."
The attitude behind the acts would still exist even if it wasn't wartime. People would still be mistreated, and human rights wouldn't be upheld. If people are willing to do such things it shows they need change. Different culture or not, universal human rights should be enforced.
"All I'm trying to say is that no one says good job US for following these rules and doing the right thing by not attacking their holy places and such. All people do is shoot down the US and say how bad we are."
You aren't looking very hard then. A lot of people support the war. Yeah, you do do good, but at the same time you do things that deserve criticism. Not waiting for the UN's ok was a bad move. I don't think the issue is being handled as carefully as it should be. It's a very, very volitile situation, for more than just Iraq. A lot of the things we do are against their beliefs, and they have a right to be agaisnt these things. Their hostility can be explained in other ways other than pure ignorance, don't you think? They're not injured animals biting the hand that cares for them, as many Americans seem to think, albeit the ignorance is there to some degree. As someone else said, you ARE invading their homeland. If someone rushed into my country, I'd be pretty ticked too. Constantly shouting about the "war on terror" and how evil they are really doesn't help abate the situation. But hey, it rallies voters pretty well. What a coincidence.
"War does show the real side of humans"
It shows the worst of humanity, but not the "real side". What does that even mean? That sounds as if we're all acting good, but what we really want to do is fight. I don't think that's true at all, most people are terrified of war, and tend to avoid conflict as much as possible. Just because humans are capable of awful acts doesn't make us as a whole bad, and it doesn't negate the good we do.
Anyone who says they wouldn't hesitate to shoot a child, are either psychopaths, or bulltroutting. Your whole mind-set is programmed to protect a child, not kill it. A child is not something that belongs in war, and certainly not as a warrior. And when you are faced with that surreal vision, of a child with murder in his eyes, holding a rifle up-side down, firing at you... that catches you off-guard, completely. It's something that gives soldiers nightmares... and should they harm that child... well, I'm not envious of them, 'cause they're likely to spend more money on therapy, than they will on fuel, water and electricity together.
That being said... yes, it's horrible. But, that's the way they fight. It may seem like cowardice to you, but that's not where it comes from. It's just that human-life, which is of the highest importance in western culture, has a lesser place in Arab culture. Human lives are to be spared, for a cause. Women and children can be killed freely, if it means the men fighters will survive, to keep the capmaign. So, you can see children flocking around militants, often oblivious to their role as human shields. You could see women holding a baby or two, walking into soldiers' line of fire, to provide cover for their husbands. It's just the way it works. It's that way here, and it's the same over there.
The attitude behind the acts may have been created from war.Quote:
The attitude behind the acts would still exist even if it wasn't wartime. People would still be mistreated, and human rights wouldn't be upheld. If people are willing to do such things it shows they need change. Different culture or not, universal human rights should be enforced.
Although yes, human rights were violated in Iraq. In fact, human rights are violated everywhere. Yet I do not think war is the way to enforce human rights, because such thing is contradictory to the idea of the declaration itself.
It reminds me to Napoleon invading Europe in the name of Enlightment, when Enlightment is an intellectual idea the individual has to reach from the emancipation of that wich is alienating. It's preety contradictory.
Off topic moment:
OK, so I can take that article even if it comes from a conservative site, but I find this one to be hillarious.
"The portrayal of sex, on the other hand, can and does lead many people to commit sins against chastity, namely, fornication, masturbation, adultery, and the entertaining of unchaste thoughts and desires.:love: It is, therefore, what is known in Catholic theology as an occasion of sin -- a person, place, or thing that is likely to lead one to commit a sin."
I say, let's make masturbation and adultery illegal.
"The attitude behind the acts may have been created from war."
I don't see how you can believe that given the social structure of the country. Warfare doesn't instantly turn people into monsters. Are you suggesting that Iraq would be better if we just left them alone? I really don't think so.
Or maybe it was both things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Aeris
And better if you had left them alone? Yes, I believe it. Iraq with Saddam was crap, sure, but at least they didn't get daily terrorist attacks. The reason USA is such a hated country is because it tends to fall into extreme chauvinism and etnocentrism, believing their democracy and their capitalism is the only correct way of doing things. Yet as you can see, people do not like that as much as USA expects. No one wanted Saddam there, he was an a??hole. But they don't want USA there either.
I didn't say I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a child, I said "shouldn't". He hesitated, and the result was that he still had to kill the child later, and he almost died himself. And had he himself died, then those children would've gone on to kill more soldiers some other day. I would probably hesistate too, and I'd be wrong to do it. What if the child was shooting not at you, but at your wife/husband? Your parents? Your children? I think I might not hesistate at all, in that circumstance. But who knows.
[qq]Iraq with Saddam was crap, sure, but at least they didn't get daily terrorist attacks.[/qq]
You'd prefer hundreds of thousands of people being killed by Saddam, along with daily torture sessions and most of the country in a state of constant poverty and fear, than having a few terrorist attacks? OK, sure.
So your point is that more people died during Saddam's rule than now? I seriously doubt it, and so do the numbers showned by Amnesty International.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Unne
And as far as I know, it's not "a few terrorist attacks", it's a terrorist attack every :love: week. Oh, and they are in constant poverty and fear.
Please stop abusing the swear filter.
Yes, it does. It does. War brings the best, and more often the worst in man.Quote:
Warfare doesn't instantly turn people into monsters.
Doubt it all you want. Saddam has killed over a million, and probably closer to two - and that's not counting the Iraq-Iran war, started by him. So far, to my knowledge, less than 6000 Iraqies have been killed by foreign forces.Quote:
So your point is that more people died during Saddam's rule than now? I seriously doubt it
It shouldn't be here. If it's here, then we get to abuse it. We're all adults here, and having some auto-censoring mechanism working on my posts is something I, at least, find offensive.Quote:
Please stop abusing the swear filter.
Uh...where did you take the "over a million and probably closer to two" thing from? Because as far as I know, death rate has increased in Iraq, and Baghdad today is not safer than before the war. Well, obviously, it's a war!!! And I find it to be an irony the fact that this war was meant to stop terrorism, not create more. Then again, we all know violence rises violence, but reconstruction rises lot's of money, so it's all fine and dandy. And the whole democracy thing, well, War Angel, you know as well as me that those people are not ready for democracy, or in case of ellections, a fundamentalist chiita (Whatever it's written in English) would rise up as potential enemy of the US, and of course, this is not something USA wants. So allow me to be preety skeptical of the whole liberation thing, in fact I find it to be beautiful demagogy.Quote:
Doubt it all you want. Saddam has killed over a million, and probably closer to two - and that's not counting the Iraq-Iran war, started by him. So far, to my knowledge, less than 6000 Iraqies have been killed by foreign forces.
Spam removed.
Stop spamming this thread. Start one in feedback if you want to talk about the swear filter.
Search Google for "Saddam death toll". Here's one: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm Judge its value as you will. It says 500,000+. We will likely never know for sure.
Saying Iraq was better off with Sadam seems like being anti-war for the sake of being anti-war. They're under constant poverty, and fear now? How do you think they lived under Sadam's rule, watching their own fathers being fed feet first, and alive into shredders? Yeah, that sounds much better.
My being anti-war stems from the fact that we shouldn't have done it in the first place. If I knew Bush had declared it because he wanted to liberate the Iraqi people, and had said so and stuck with the story, I MIGHT be more inclined to support it, though the lack of UN support troubles me as much now as it did then. I KNOW this isn't some altruistic crusade (Bush's own words) to free a downtrodden country from a facist dictator, I can't see how anyone could see otherwise. It just isn't the reason behind this attack. My qualms with the war stem from what I see as a blatant abuse of power and overstepping of boundaries that should NOT be crossed.Quote:
Saying Iraq was better off with Sadam seems like being anti-war for the sake of being anti-war. They're under constant poverty, and fear now? How do you think they lived under Sadam's rule, watching their own fathers being fed feet first, and alive into shredders? Yeah, that sounds much better.
I don't have a problem with the liberation of the Iraqi people. In fact, I think it'd be a great thing, IF we were truly liberating them. The region is too unstable right now for me to know if we've truly done any good, only time shall tell whether our actions have had any beneficial effects at all.
Amen.Quote:
I don't have a problem with the liberation of the Iraqi people. In fact, I think it'd be a great thing, IF we were truly liberating them. The region is too unstable right now for me to know if we've truly done any good, only time shall tell whether our actions have had any beneficial effects at all
Just like the common saying "Rome wasn't built in a day," you could also say "Berlin wasn't liberated in a day." It took nearly fifty years to completely liberate the people of Berlin and Germany. Liberating the Iraqi people isn't going to happen overnight - turmoil and domestic violence are to be expected from such a sudden regime change.
That's right. Genocidal purges (Saddam's own "war against terror", you might say) caused the deaths of tens of thousands of his own people, wars, the murder of potential enemies. Total death toll of around two million. The majority of people killed by Hussein's regime were those who died in the Iraq-Iran war, a conflict supported by the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Unne
However, the act of being an Iraqi or US citizen doesn't make anyone inherently complicit in those terrible acts. You can't say they deserve to die, or it's ok to kill them because they lived in an 'evil' country; likewise, it's pretty low to say "it's all right to kill a few thousand more of them, by accident, if the end result will be peace".
You have to remember that cogress has to pass the war also it's not just Bush saying "oh I feel like a war today" So don't blame everything on Bush because those people were/are infavor of the war and are as much resposible for it as Bush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Behold the Void