First official AC reviews are in. Do you agree?

taking a look at gamerankings, you can see here that the first offical Advent Children reviews are in. And personally, I think these reviews have been bought by square.

EGM has been stating the same comments since the films preview in Venice. Its better than Spirits within (bullshizcz!), it features the only Final Fantasy cast people care about (FFVI fans, launch flaming emails now!), it looks cooler than anime and Hong Kong action flicks (since when did EGM or Ziff Davis publications in general even care about either?) and FFVII, the game that made rpg's popular in america. They've been repeating the same old comments time and again for so long that it really does feel as though they are reading from some sort of script. Yah, they touch on briefly that the plot sucks, then go back to trying to make you believe its the greatest film since Seven Samurai. I dont mind differring opinions, but fanboyish rantings from people who frequently boast about journalistic integrety gets a bit nauseating. Surprisingly though, they managed to restrain themselves and dock the film a 15% for the lacking plot. But still, their score of 85% is overly generous IMO

Gaming Evolution is just a bit better, once again they bust out the cliche mocking the commercial failure of Spirits within, then go on to repeat the same material without referring to anime or Hong kong films. They award AC a 95% despite admitting the plot is weak. Am I the only person who sees something wrong with that?

PSXEvolution UK's review is the most nauseating one. I mean at least most people who like the film can state that the plot lacked. Serverely. These guys are trying to tell you that the plot was "spectacular". I kid you not. In fact though they rarely have a negative comment they score the movie the lowest, at a 80%. And yes, the obligatory dig at sprits within is made.

You know, the irony is that all three publications are people who praised the film before and during its release, but have since then jumped on the bandwagon in favor of beating this dead horse rather then offend the masses. Offering publications an early exclusive for favors is not totally unheard of, and these reviews just dont really sound all that objective. I mean I can look at reviews for MGS and Devil may cry, reviews that are very generous yet they at least pay attention to flaws and mark the film on its own merits rather then make you think its better then products the target audiance has never heard of. I mean I really doubt the target audiance for AC had the patience to sit through Ghost in the shell or Crouching tiger hidden dragon, so why make the comparisons? and if the plot (a vital element needed in any movie) is so weak then how come the scores are so high? Michael Bay takes hits for his action over story approach, but Id call Armegeddon or Con Air a masterpiece of storytelling over AC anyday.

I dont want to come accross as a hater, but I do get sick of all the "OMFG, AC EFFING ROXXORZZ" comments and welcome those who can actually make a intelligent argument or point on the film instead of fanboyish ranting. These "Journalists" however just come accross as the former in their articles, rather then the latter IMO. But I could be wrong, what say the rest of you.

Somebody get this kid some hatorade, the action was outstanding, Cloud is a total badass, and dont forget Kadaj and his gang, they were some bad mo fo's as well, and then you add Sephiroth to the mix and you get one fantastic final battle. Dude stop hatin, this movies action was over the top, Spirits Within was total trash and only the most die hard of Final Fantasy fans liked it. Advent Children was everything I expected, the plot wasnt the greatest but if you actually paid attention to the game then it wouldnt matter, we got flying Motorcycle gun/sword fights, huge explosions, giant dragons, and fricking Sephiroth, this movie will appeal to ff fans and non ff alike, if you want a deep plot go rent dances with wolves, if you want adrenaline pumping action get this.

I just enjoyed that they made something to do with 7. The plot was of course crap, the fact that they made new [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] up just to bring back Sephiroth was pathetic on their part. Sephiroth was killed, show me something new or show me something that happened within the game so you don't have to make [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] up, bringing him back just because the fanboys loved him is plain old cash-grab tactics. That being said I enjoyed the over the top fights that I imagined the fights to actually be like, outside of the battle system.
I enjoyed the movie for what it was, a 90 minute long fan-service.

TSW was not crap either, it wasn't the best thing ever but people hating it just because it 'wasn't true final fantasy' are idiots. Ever hear of not judging a book by its cover? If you didn't like it for what it was now that on the other hand is fine.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

taking a look at gamerankings, you can see here that the first offical Advent Children reviews are in. And personally, I think these reviews have been bought by square.

EGM has been stating the same comments since the films preview in Venice. Its better than Spirits within (bullshizcz!), it features the only Final Fantasy cast people care about (FFVI fans, launch flaming emails now!), it looks cooler than anime and Hong Kong action flicks (since when did EGM or Ziff Davis publications in general even care about either?) and FFVII, the game that made rpg's popular in america. They've been repeating the same old comments time and again for so long that it really does feel as though they are reading from some sort of script. Yah, they touch on briefly that the plot sucks, then go back to trying to make you believe its the greatest film since Seven Samurai. I dont mind differring opinions, but fanboyish rantings from people who frequently boast about journalistic integrety gets a bit nauseating. Surprisingly though, they managed to restrain themselves and dock the film a 15% for the lacking plot. But still, their score of 85% is overly generous IMO

Gaming Evolution is just a bit better, once again they bust out the cliche mocking the commercial failure of Spirits within, then go on to repeat the same material without referring to anime or Hong kong films. They award AC a 95% despite admitting the plot is weak. Am I the only person who sees something wrong with that?

PSXEvolution UK's review is the most nauseating one. I mean at least most people who like the film can state that the plot lacked. Serverely. These guys are trying to tell you that the plot was "spectacular". I kid you not. In fact though they rarely have a negative comment they score the movie the lowest, at a 80%. And yes, the obligatory dig at sprits within is made.

You know, the irony is that all three publications are people who praised the film before and during its release, but have since then jumped on the bandwagon in favor of beating this dead horse rather then offend the masses. Offering publications an early exclusive for favors is not totally unheard of, and these reviews just dont really sound all that objective. I mean I can look at reviews for MGS and Devil may cry, reviews that are very generous yet they at least pay attention to flaws and mark the film on its own merits rather then make you think its better then products the target audiance has never heard of. I mean I really doubt the target audiance for AC had the patience to sit through Ghost in the shell or Crouching tiger hidden dragon, so why make the comparisons? and if the plot (a vital element needed in any movie) is so weak then how come the scores are so high? Michael Bay takes hits for his action over story approach, but Id call Armegeddon or Con Air a masterpiece of storytelling over AC anyday.

I dont want to come accross as a hater, but I do get sick of all the "OMFG, AC EFFING ROXXORZZ" comments and welcome those who can actually make a intelligent argument or point on the film instead of fanboyish ranting. These "Journalists" however just come accross as the former in their articles, rather then the latter IMO. But I could be wrong, what say the rest of you.

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Yes. We all know you hate AC. I wonder how many similar posts had you made regarding this topic already.

Somebody get this kid some hatorade, the action was outstanding,

Smartass, maybe the action was not enough?

Cloud is a total badass,

Not everyone likes the blonde girl


and dont forget Kadaj and his gang, they were some bad mo fo's as well, and then you add Sephiroth to the mix and you get one fantastic final battle.

True, I agree with that..

Dude stop hatin, this movies action was over the top,

Where was the story, love?

Spirits Within was total trash and only the most die hard of Final Fantasy fans liked it.

Nothing to say about that

Advent Children was everything I expected, the plot wasnt the greatest but if you actually paid attention to the game then it wouldnt matter, we got flying Motorcycle gun/sword fights, huge explosions, giant dragons, and fricking Sephiroth, this movie will appeal to ff fans and non ff alike, if you want a deep plot go rent dances with wolves, if you want adrenaline pumping action get this.

All movies have to have plots, and lovely, you thought the movie was great - but don't go telling people who didn't like it to shut up whatever.

SoulTaker*, it seems to me you have just ranted about the how film is great, and not bothered to quote, comment properly on the first post - now do you see why the original poster gets angry? When people fire back with comments like yours?

He doesn't want to seem like a hate, he represents my view as well - that he's just sick of the same "omg, FFVIIAC ROXXXERSZKDNFKDSN!!!" comments, ones that just dont seem to explain themselves as much.

Bah, he's also being open about his statement, but oh no, you launch into a rant..

Just comment on the reviews people. =o

tru

I also want to point out to the original poster:

You may want to reward your comments in a more user friendly way - some FFVIIAC fans may see the red light =P.

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TSW was not crap either, it wasn't the best thing ever but people hating it just because it 'wasn't true final fantasy' are idiots. Ever hear of not judging a book by its cover? If you didn't like it for what it was now that on the other hand is fine.

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I saw that movie for like the 4th time a few days ago, it was airing on the Sci Fi channel, and it is still as whack as when I saw it the 1st time, maybe I went overboard in calling the movie to almost put square outta business trash, it was a poor to decent sci fi flick, if your gonna do a sci fi flick atleast dont put the Final Fantasy name on it, say from the creators of Final Fantasy or something. Yes by all means dont judge a book by it's cover, but this books cover was good(that it was being a Final Fantasy title) but the contents inside were bad.

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Smartass, maybe the action was not enough?

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:D

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Where was the story, love

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Go play the game again, theirs 50+ hours of it.

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Not everyone likes the blonde girl

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You must mean Tidus, because I know your not saying Sephipoo got beat by a girl.:tongue:

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All movies have to have plots, and lovely, you thought the movie was great - but don't go telling people who didn't like it to shut up whatever.

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I dont believe I told him to shut up, and it has a plot, and like I said if you understood the games PLOT, the plot is that this is 2 years after VII and most the people in Midgar have a disease called Geostigma, and it explains what the disease is and how it works, they also explain the 3 clones intentions, I personally am glad that they didnt stand around for 130 minutes talking up a plot and making this movie as boring as TSW, they got straight to the balls to walls action, also this is about Clouds redemption, he feels responsible for letting Aeris and Zack kick the bucket, so he goes around in the movie seeking this redemption, if you like lubby dubby sappy stuff this is about as close as your gonna get.

And to sum up my feelings about the reviews "omg, FFVIIAC ROXXXERSZKDNFKDSN!!!". Yeah I think thats how I feel.

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Originally Posted by Christmas

We all know you hate AC. How many similar posts had you made regarding this topic already?

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Go play the game again, theirs 50+ hours of it.

I AM ON ABOUT THE MOVIE, A GOOD MOVIE MUST HAVE A GOOD PLOT PLZTHXBI

You must mean Tidus, because I know your not saying Sephipoo got beat by a girl.

Thanks for pointing that out XD.

The plot is fine.

You have to be fair when talking about Advent Children in terms of plot, because it's no secret that this was not originally intended to be a feature-length film and that the whole piece was literally cobbled together. The other thing is that this is the continuation of Cloud's story: if you're not interested in Cloud then this film is not for you, because the key plot points all revolve around his character development. They gave this film a limited scope in terms of plot, which was a good move, because even so it's lacking but the fact that they managed even a farce of a plot in such an action-dense movie is worth a thumbs-up.

I liked Advent Children. I don't think it "R0X0RZOHEMGEE!!!1", but I did like it: the visuals and the music blew me away, and I think the plot was almost sufficient for a primarily action-based film.

I haven't seen AC yet, but I must say I didn't mind Spirits Within. Sure, it wasn't great, but it wasn't absolutely horrible.

Actually, look for a post from me on spirits within in that part of the forum later today.

As for AC, you know I do reviews on seperate websites, and reviewed it when the japanese version came out. I gave it a 3/5 on video game websites, because of the target audiance, I gave it a 2/5 on others. The 3/5 was for the video game audiance, because its a movie they should all see, and despite the unlikeable female lead (yes, Im talkin bout cloud) the turks and rufus had enough screen time to make me feel as though the film wasnt a total storytelling black hole. I deducted the marks for the whack ass plot, and for the amatuerish direction. Anyone who thinks this CGI matches spirits within needs their eyes checked. Tifa's fight with loz is more like a slide show, the characters move using motion blurs, stay in the same pose while the screen moves crazy fast, and animate only during a hyper quick scene change. Its enough to give a person a seizure. The characters move incredibly stiffly with no sense of gravity, weight, or substance. Whereas in spirits within, there were times you wondered if you were really watching live action. The scene where the phantoms attack the city in particular was masterfully directed. When that phantom passed through that ship, and it lost control, you could see the hover jets fluctuate, and the ship spin and tilt in natural ways. As the saying goes, Devils in the details, and Spirits within got that right where as AC just works to make you overlooks the style over substance. You should actually read all persons thoughts, and respond to them in kind before making judgements instead of responding in a rage just because they point out the flaws in a product you like. If I posted like that there would be a whole lot of flaming going on whenever someone slammed spirits within.

And by the way, I still say these reviews were bought. Favorable press in exchange for early exclusives. I used to work in the industry and I saw that thing happen all the time. you cant tell me this plot was "Spectacular". No Effing way. and when a magazine repeats the same comments for three years despite different writers penning the articles, there is something up.

Maybe Spirits Within should have bought some reviews, (I have no proir experience with the critic industry so I cant comment, I usually decide for myself anyway), and maybe square pictures would still be putting out movies today. It made 32 mil at the box office and it cost them 200 mil to make. TSW characters looked like dolls, they gave blank stares, whenever they grabbed something or where holding something it looked weird, and everything looked painted, it just didnt look as real as they pegged it to be, and when they kissed ewwww! The commando parts were cool, but it just wasnt that good of a movie, sorry. But Advent Children had a few problems as well, some of the fight and action scenes were a bit to fast paced and sometimes you couldnt understand what was happening, but that is one of the reason square said it was releasing it on dvd, so you could slow it down.

Most of the video game press for spirits within follows this timeline

Prior to the release - This will be the best video game movie ever

At the time of the release - its not for everyone, but its still a great film that should be seen.

a few months after the release - hahahahaha, did you hear the latest "spirits within bombed" joke? too bad though, it was a pretty good movie"

during the making of AC - man spirits within sucked. This should be better.

The irony is Official Playstation magazine, which is a Ziff Davis publication, reviewed the DVD very favorably at about 4/5, and ran a huge article on the movie praising it, and interviewing the cast and creators. Now go to 1up, which archives most of the articles from its publications, and look for The review of spirits within, or even the article which praised it so much. You wont be able to find it. Which I do find rather hypocritical.

This was a movie that was made specifically for the fans of the game. It shouldn't come as a surprise that gaming publications would love the movie. Now, if major critics from Variety, Entertainment Weekly, The Los Angeles Times were to review this movie, I doubt it would be anything less than a major flop. Advent Children is what it is. No need to get angry just cause people enjoyed a movie that you apparently hated.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

taking a look at gamerankings, you can see here that the first offical Advent Children reviews are in. And personally, I think these reviews have been bought by square.

EGM has been stating the same comments since the films preview in Venice. Its better than Spirits within (bullshizcz!), it features the only Final Fantasy cast people care about (FFVI fans, launch flaming emails now!), it looks cooler than anime and Hong Kong action flicks (since when did EGM or Ziff Davis publications in general even care about either?) and FFVII, the game that made rpg's popular in america. They've been repeating the same old comments time and again for so long that it really does feel as though they are reading from some sort of script. Yah, they touch on briefly that the plot sucks, then go back to trying to make you believe its the greatest film since Seven Samurai. I dont mind differring opinions, but fanboyish rantings from people who frequently boast about journalistic integrety gets a bit nauseating. Surprisingly though, they managed to restrain themselves and dock the film a 15% for the lacking plot. But still, their score of 85% is overly generous IMO

Gaming Evolution is just a bit better, once again they bust out the cliche mocking the commercial failure of Spirits within, then go on to repeat the same material without referring to anime or Hong kong films. They award AC a 95% despite admitting the plot is weak. Am I the only person who sees something wrong with that?

PSXEvolution UK's review is the most nauseating one. I mean at least most people who like the film can state that the plot lacked. Serverely. These guys are trying to tell you that the plot was "spectacular". I kid you not. In fact though they rarely have a negative comment they score the movie the lowest, at a 80%. And yes, the obligatory dig at sprits within is made.

You know, the irony is that all three publications are people who praised the film before and during its release, but have since then jumped on the bandwagon in favor of beating this dead horse rather then offend the masses. Offering publications an early exclusive for favors is not totally unheard of, and these reviews just dont really sound all that objective. I mean I can look at reviews for MGS and Devil may cry, reviews that are very generous yet they at least pay attention to flaws and mark the film on its own merits rather then make you think its better then products the target audiance has never heard of. I mean I really doubt the target audiance for AC had the patience to sit through Ghost in the shell or Crouching tiger hidden dragon, so why make the comparisons? and if the plot (a vital element needed in any movie) is so weak then how come the scores are so high? Michael Bay takes hits for his action over story approach, but Id call Armegeddon or Con Air a masterpiece of storytelling over AC anyday.

I dont want to come accross as a hater, but I do get sick of all the "OMFG, AC EFFING ROXXORZZ" comments and welcome those who can actually make a intelligent argument or point on the film instead of fanboyish ranting. These "Journalists" however just come accross as the former in their articles, rather then the latter IMO. But I could be wrong, what say the rest of you.

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The target audience for AC probably would sit through Ghost in the Shell or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually.

And FFVII's cast IS the cast that the most people care about. Quite a few people care about the cast of the others, but VII simply has the most fans. It's one of the standards by which all other RPGs are judged, simple as that.

Quite frankly, that entire essay sounds like something written by an emo/goth loser who hates the idea of liking something that other people like for the sake of being an "individual." Well, stop it. You're not fooling anyone. So you didn't like the movie. That's your right. But accusing AC of having less depth than MICHAEL F**KING BAY? I'm sorry, but that's an example of what can objectively be described as idiocy. There ARE absolute standards by which art can be judged, and your little rant fails at understanding every last one of them.

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Originally Posted by ?????

The target audience for AC probably would sit through Ghost in the Shell or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually.

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Doubtful. Both those films have something Advent Children lacks completely. A plot. Then take into account that both these films have subplots, and have rooted history's (CTHD is based on #4 in a pentology of old novels, GITS had its world more fully explored by the manga of the same name) and yes, the average average FFVII fan would NOT be familiar with these films or the media that they are from.

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Originally Posted by ?????

And FFVII's cast IS the cast that the most people care about. Quite a few people care about the cast of the others, but VII simply has the most fans. It's one of the standards by which all other RPGs are judged, simple as that.

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The majority of people who have played FFVI would disagree. Heavily. all FFVII did was set the standard for graphics. FFVI set the standard for storytelling, gameplay, music, and challenge.

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Originally Posted by ?????

Quite frankly, that entire essay sounds like something written by an emo/goth loser who hates the idea of liking something that other people like for the sake of being an "individual." Well, stop it. You're not fooling anyone. So you didn't like the movie. That's your right. But accusing AC of having less depth than MICHAEL F**KING BAY? I'm sorry, but that's an example of what can objectively be described as idiocy. There ARE absolute standards by which art can be judged, and your little rant fails at understanding every last one of them.

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Kid, I gave this film a 60% on video game boards, and of those boards I gave it a 40%. Those arent totally horrid ratings you know. maybe you should actually try to make some valid points and read through the entire post, and think up some good arguments rather than trying to flame someone who disagree's with you.

And for the record, as silly as Con Air was, It's story has far more emotional resonnance than AC. At least when people are dead in Michael Bay's films, they stay dead. come talk to me bout idiocy when the version of AC comes out where Aeries doesnt save clouds life twice, cure the geostigma, resurrect him when he gets blown away, and tend to the sick children at the end.

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This was a movie that was made specifically for the fans of the game. It shouldn't come as a surprise that gaming publications would love the movie. Now, if major critics from Variety, Entertainment Weekly, The Los Angeles Times were to review this movie, I doubt it would be anything less than a major flop. Advent Children is what it is. No need to get angry just cause people enjoyed a movie that you apparently hated.

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Actually, guess what? Ive seen unfavorable reviews for Final Fantasy IV, X, VI IX, and other of my favorite video game titles. The difference here is those reviews were reviews. They made sense (in their own way) and stuck to relevant subject matter. Insulting mediums the target audiance has never heard of, insulting films you praised before it became uncool to like them, and mentioning the flaws without really deducting marks for them, thats just sloppy journalism. And I'd really like to know what drugs those guys who called this plot "spectacular" are on, or how much square is paying them. I personally think the fatal frame series kicks silent hill and resident evil to the curb, but alot of people just cant take in the very japanese vibe and the slower paced storytelling and gameplay. I dont mind that, calling AC a masterpiece of storytelling, your either stupid or just getting paid to say so. though I shouldnt really mention any names should I ??????

A person's opinion is just that, their opinion. There are tons of people out there who thought Chicago was an amazing movie with an amazing storyline. I thought it sucked. I'm talking hardcore suckage here. Yes, there are going to be people out there who think that Advent Children had a great storyline. They're not asking you to agree with them, so just chill.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Doubtful. Both those films have something Advent Children lacks completely. A plot. Then take into account that both these films have subplots, and have rooted history's (CTHD is based on #4 in a pentology of old novels, GITS had its world more fully explored by the manga of the same name) and yes, the average average FFVII fan would NOT be familiar with these films or the media that they are from.

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This is an assumption so large I don't even know where to start debunking it. Are you trying to tell me that I can't enjoy or understand a Kubrick film simply because I happen to like Adam Sandler as well? I never said Advent Children was the greatest film of all time. It isn't. Its audience is limited to fans of the game; to be truly great, a film, or other work of art, must reach a mass audience in ways that don't even need to be explained.

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The majority of people who have played FFVI would disagree. Heavily. All FFVII did was set the standard for graphics. FFVI set the standard for storytelling, gameplay, music, and challenge.

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You're just proving my point; you don't like VII's popularity, so you're trying to build VI into some kind of god-figure among RPGs. Now you're not gonna find me dissing on VI; it's a great game, and if it hadn't been for VI, many elements of the later FF games would be nonexistent. However, VI quite simply didn't share the scope of VII. You can blame it on the limits of the technology if you'd like, but the facts remain the same; VI's story was not as deep or complex as VII's. You can like VI more on a personal level if you feel like it, but from a literary point of view, Final Fantasy VII did indeed set the standard for storytelling in modern RPGs.

And for god's sake, Kefka was not that great of a villain. He was a great comedy act. Comedy act =/= villain. He may have done the one-winged angel thing first, but Sephiroth did it better. FAR better. Kefka's "godliness" came absolutely out of nowhere and came off as little more than cinematics; Sephiroth's had been building up for the entire game.

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Kid, I gave this film a 60% on video game boards, and of those boards I gave it a 40%. Those arent totally horrid ratings you know. maybe you should actually try to make some valid points and read through the entire post, and think up some good arguments rather than trying to flame someone who disagree's with you.

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I would suggest that you not speak in such a manner to those more knowledgeable than yourself.

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And for the record, as silly as Con Air was, It's story has far more emotional resonance than AC.

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No, it doesn't. That statement was crazed ranting of someone desperately trying to establish an identity. No more, no less.

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come talk to me bout idiocy when the version of AC comes out where Aeries doesnt save clouds life twice, cure the geostigma, resurrect him when he gets blown away, and tend to the sick children at the end.

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For the record, Cloud didn't actually die, regardless of what anyone else will tell you, so your objection is moot. Actually resurrecting someone is impossible; it wasn't the true Sephiroth that Cloud fought in AC. The advanced technology and medicine of Final Fantasy VII can cure quite a lot, but it doesn't save you if you're already dead. This is what happened to Aeris. Seeing as Cloud is still alive, he must merely have been having some sort of dream sequence, where Aeris' appearance would be feasible.

And think about it for a second: even near the beginning of FFVII, Cloud survived a fall greater than 150 meters and escaped not only unscathed, but with a hot new lady friend. But we'll just focus on the fall and leave my peni--I mean the dynamics of Cloud and Aeris' relationship for another discussion. That's 487.5 feet, roughly the equivalent of falling out of the top window of a fifty-story building. Is it any wonder that machine gun rounds do insubstantial damage to him? Aeris gives him hitting the flowers as a justification for his survival, but Aeris is apparently too hot to know physics; a normal person would still have died even if they'd hit a mattress. The net force on a body, in nonrelativistic mechanics, is equal to its mass times its acceleration. The direction of the acceleration makes no difference here; the magnitude is still the same. Remember that because of Newton's laws, the ground must supply a force equivalent to Cloud's mass times 9.81 m/s^2 over the time it takes Cloud to decelerate from his fall. This time will be extremely short, short enough to be similar to the time if he'd simply crashed onto the ground. I shouldn't have to bother calculating it, because it's clear that unless Cloud has a composition fit for legends, he will die from this crash. The fact that he lived at all after that, let alone was able to walk and fight at full capacity no more than a few days at most after the incident is enough proof that he can take a single gunshot, even if it's in the heart. Add that to deflecting bullets, beating the hell out of tank droids singlehandedly, taking falling rocks to the head, slay four Weapons, at full strength falling from stratospheric heights onto hard metal without so much as a scratch, AND beating Sephiroth, and it's even easier to believe he survived. Cloud should have by all rights been vaporized by Bahamut SIN's giant fireball-ish thing of death. Bahamut ZERO, presumably a lesser form of Bahamut than SIN, had blast effects visible from orbit, and can easily defeat Ultima Weapon unaided. From this and the sheer size of SIN's final attack, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the blast was intended to utterly destroy the Midgar area. I looked up some figures to see just how large this could be. Midgar's size on the computer monitor on the train early in the game is roughly 1/10,000 scale. Suppose that that monitor is roughly the same size as my own, which would render the scale model of Midgar about two feet in diameter. Following from this is a radius of 10,000 feet for all of Midgar. This corresponds to ~3076 m, or 3.076 km. As the area of a circle is pi*r^2, the area of Midgar is around 29.7 km^2, just over half of the land area of Manhattan Island. That's probably a generous estimate, but nevertheless, the city's actual metal content is likely far higher than that of even the present world's largest cities, considering the immense metal plates and supports that the city is built upon, as well as the eight Mako reactors. Unfortunately, I can't readily find a shot of Bahamut ZERO's blast so as to scale its effects to SIN's shot, but I don't need that to prove that being able to take an attack intended to utterly demolish a sprawling megalopolis makes it fairly easy to believe that Cloud survived a hit to the heart.

Any normal human would have been literally crushed into goo by the beatings Cloud's taken. Basically, anything that isn't an instant kill shot will not defeat Cloud. Hell, even most of the stuff that DOES kill normal people instantly won't off him. It's almost to the point where you'd have to go find a Death Star just to make sure there's no one around to heal him. Hell, if Supernova wasn't just a convincing illusion generated by perversions of the magic of the Lifestream, you'd even have to rule out nuking the Earth as an option. He's just that goddamned tough; he's almost like fricking Superman. Is he the toughest fighter ever in the history of sci-fi and fantasy? No, believe it or not. There are people who've accomplished feats comparable to or even crazier than all the ones I just listed; Link for the former category (he's all that comes to mind right now), and for the latter, some incarnations of Superman, beings like the Q, Hellsing's Alucard, and several different Force-users including Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine all come to mind. But Cloud's easily tough enough that your objection about Aeris continually rescuing him is moot.

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Insulting mediums the target audiance has never heard of, insulting films you praised before it became uncool to like them, and mentioning the flaws without really deducting marks for them, thats just sloppy journalism.

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This is just about the only part of your rant that I can agree with. The way people have treated TSW is unwarranted.

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And I'd really like to know what drugs those guys who called this plot "spectacular" are on, or how much square is paying them.

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The plot itself is fairly simplistic. It isn't nearly as complicated as the game that spawned it, but with regards to Cloud's character, it works.

What he said, Cloud is a total badass. People dont like Fatal Frame because they pick up a game to have an interactive experience while being thrilled at the same time, not to watch a movie, and playing Fatal Frame feels like watching a movie, its creepy but its hard to stack that up against the Resident Evil series, and your right it is slow, very, very slow. Alot more people than you think enjoyed CTHD, I dont know if you live in a bubble but it isnt that rare compared to 10 years ago to find someone who has seen GITS, Akira, or Eva, since they got about 5 anima's playing after Family Guy on cartoon network including Eva, and they dont have to know the background of the movies to enjoy it.

I have never played through VI to know if it is better than VII, I'm guessing no since I havent met 2 people in my whole life that have beaten it, I tried but after 20 minutes I had to turn the emu off, It would have probably had been better to play VI first then play VII,VIII,IX and X.

Maybe it would have been better to have renamed Advent Children Clouds story. It would dispell the illusion that any Cloud haters would have as to who is the main character of the story.

It doesn't take a genius to work out who the main character was.

Cloud isn't a total badass. Squall is more of a badass.

Play through FFVI fully before commention further on any other FF. For me, it was the final FF I have played recently, and it does surpass or match FFVII in many areas.

????? did you actually type all that up? If so, could you summarise it? I have trouble reading some of the print all squished up >.<

If you could read my squished up typing :screwy: you would realise that I basically stated I wasnt gonna comment on VI since I never completed it, I'm saying that it probably isnt better than VII since VII didnt have that great of graphics and still stands up to X, and I honestly havent met that many people that have completed VI, but I do hear good things. And I do think Squall is more of a badass than Cloud from the beginning of disc 1 to the end of disc 3.

I was on about ?????, the actual member, not you XD.

I could read your post duh =P

My bad. Seeing how your post was 20 min after mine and it does kind of mirror an answer to everything I said, was kind of easy to get mixed up. But I did kind of read though question marks post, and it has something to do with Cloud being a total badass and how he kicks every VI characters butt with his hands tied.

[QUOTE=?????]This is an assumption so large I don't even know where to start debunking it. Are you trying to tell me that I can't enjoy or understand a Kubrick film simply because I happen to like Adam Sandler as well? I never said Advent Children was the greatest film of all time. It isn't. Its audience is limited to fans of the game; to be truly great, a film, or other work of art, must reach a mass audience in ways that don't even need to be explained.

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Originally Posted by ?????

You're just proving my point; you don't like VII's popularity, so you're trying to build VI into some kind of god-figure among RPGs. Now you're not gonna find me dissing on VI; it's a great game, and if it hadn't been for VI, many elements of the later FF games would be nonexistent. However, VI quite simply didn't share the scope of VII. You can blame it on the limits of the technology if you'd like, but the facts remain the same; VI's story was not as deep or complex as VII's. You can like VI more on a personal level if you feel like it, but from a literary point of view, Final Fantasy VII did indeed set the standard for storytelling in modern RPGs.

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you mind making some points instead of talking some smack? FFVII's idea of finding something to be attatched too is a contrived love triangle. FFVI's idea of finding something to be emotionally attatched to is taking a character who never HAD a childhood, who never knew her mother, who only knew her father's spirit, who had been raised since before she could crawl to KILL, and having her be responsible for a villaige of orphans.

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Originally Posted by ?????

And for god's sake, Kefka was not that great of a villain. He was a great comedy act. Comedy act =/= villain. He may have done the one-winged angel thing first, but Sephiroth did it better. FAR better. Kefka's "godliness" came absolutely out of nowhere and came off as little more than cinematics; Sephiroth's had been building up for the entire game.

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once again, your just talking smack instead of making points. Kefka's godliness came from years of scheming, he was a magitech knight like Celes who was a prototype, and as a result he was hopelessly insane, but crazy powerful. he added to those powers to syphoning the magical forces from the espers he captured, then used those powers in conjuction to kill all the remaining espers, uses those combined powers to wake the goddesses, uses their power to create a mass appoccalypse, and after a year of stealing their powers is a vengeful god. and a rather likeable (in the sense that you can like a truly great villain) one at that. Sephiroth was a wannabe who never could be. he couldnt obtain true power, so he used meteor. he could never get anything done himself, so he used cloud. His claim to fame is killing a church girl in a CGI cutscene, Kefka's claim to fame is mass genocide and creating an appocalypse. And your tyring to tell me Sephiroth did the whole god thing better? he looked prettier I suppose, but thats nothing to boast about.

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Originally Posted by ?????

And for the record, as silly as Con Air was, It's story has far more emotional resonance than AC.

No, it doesn't. That statement was crazed ranting of someone desperately trying to establish an identity. No more, no less.

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you know, I always preferred the mediterranian over the river of De-Nial when it comes to sailing. but hey, different strokes. :rolleyes2

At least con air did the whole "lets rip off john woo" better then AC. And being a fan of clever satire, I actually enjoy Michael Bays Satiric sense of humor in his earlier films

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Originally Posted by ?????

For the record, Cloud didn't actually die, regardless of what anyone else will tell you, so your objection is moot. Actually resurrecting someone is impossible; it wasn't the true Sephiroth that Cloud fought in AC. The advanced technology and medicine of Final Fantasy VII can cure quite a lot, but it doesn't save you if you're already dead. This is what happened to Aeris. Seeing as Cloud is still alive, he must merely have been having some sort of dream sequence, where Aeris' appearance would be feasible.

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He was blown up, the entire surface of the building went kablooey. he was in the life stream and ended up back in the wellspring in the church. he was dead. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by ?????

And think about it for a second: even near the beginning of FFVII, Cloud survived a fall greater than 150 meters and escaped not only unscathed, but with a hot new lady friend. But we'll just focus on the fall and leave my peni--I mean the dynamics of Cloud and Aeris' relationship for another discussion. That's 487.5 feet, roughly the equivalent of falling out of the top window of a fifty-story building. Is it any wonder that machine gun rounds do insubstantial damage to him? Aeris gives him hitting the flowers as a justification for his survival, but Aeris is apparently too hot to know physics; a normal person would still have died even if they'd hit a mattress. The net force on a body, in nonrelativistic mechanics, is equal to its mass times its acceleration. The direction of the acceleration makes no difference here; the magnitude is still the same. Remember that because of Newton's laws, the ground must supply a force equivalent to Cloud's mass times 9.81 m/s^2 over the time it takes Cloud to decelerate from his fall. I just feel compelled to mention at this time that the term, analysis is technically a compound word. The word anal, which needs no introduction. and the word ysis, which is taken from the greek language and which means; To draw numbers out of. I now return you to ?????'s analysis. This time will be extremely short, short enough to be similar to the time if he'd simply crashed onto the ground. I shouldn't have to bother calculating it, because it's clear that unless Cloud has a composition fit for legends, he will die from this crash. The fact that he lived at all after that, let alone was able to walk and fight at full capacity no more than a few days at most after the incident is enough proof that he can take a single gunshot, even if it's in the heart. Add that to deflecting bullets, beating the hell out of tank droids singlehandedly, taking falling rocks to the head, slay four Weapons, at full strength falling from stratospheric heights onto hard metal without so much as a scratch, AND beating Sephiroth, and it's even easier to believe he survived. Cloud should have by all rights been vaporized by Bahamut SIN's giant fireball-ish thing of death. Bahamut ZERO, presumably a lesser form of Bahamut than SIN, had blast effects visible from orbit, and can easily defeat Ultima Weapon unaided. From this and the sheer size of SIN's final attack, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the blast was intended to utterly destroy the Midgar area. I looked up some figures to see just how large this could be. Midgar's size on the computer monitor on the train early in the game is roughly 1/10,000 scale. Suppose that that monitor is roughly the same size as my own, which would render the scale model of Midgar about two feet in diameter. Following from this is a radius of 10,000 feet for all of Midgar. This corresponds to ~3076 m, or 3.076 km. As the area of a circle is pi*r^2, the area of Midgar is around 29.7 km^2, just over half of the land area of Manhattan Island. That's probably a generous estimate, but nevertheless, the city's actual metal content is likely far higher than that of even the present world's largest cities, considering the immense metal plates and supports that the city is built upon, as well as the eight Mako reactors. Unfortunately, I can't readily find a shot of Bahamut ZERO's blast so as to scale its effects to SIN's shot, but I don't need that to prove that being able to take an attack intended to utterly demolish a sprawling megalopolis makes it fairly easy to believe that Cloud survived a hit to the heart.

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First of all, that shows considerably more than a few seconds worth of thinking. Obsess much?

and lets accept some real physics instead of fanboy physics here. Ive seen some incredible acts of stamina, endurance, power, and conditioning while studying martial arts. Therefore while its a stretch to assume that even a genetically enhanced supersolider can survive that much of a fall, Ive seen worse in various anime and films so I can learn to overlook contrivances like that. But its also a fact that no matter how well conditioned and trained an individual is, if their heart is grievely injured, they are going to die. and if they do not die immediately then they will be incapable of acting with the same physical ability as they were previously before they die.

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Originally Posted by ?????

Any normal human would have been literally crushed into goo by the beatings Cloud's taken. Basically, anything that isn't an instant kill shot will not defeat Cloud. Hell, even most of the stuff that DOES kill normal people instantly won't off him. It's almost to the point where you'd have to go find a Death Star just to make sure there's no one around to heal him. Hell, if Supernova wasn't just a convincing illusion generated by perversions of the magic of the Lifestream, you'd even have to rule out nuking the Earth as an option. He's just that goddamned tough; he's almost like fricking Superman. Is he the toughest fighter ever in the history of sci-fi and fantasy? No, believe it or not. There are people who've accomplished feats comparable to or even crazier than all the ones I just listed; Link for the former category (he's all that comes to mind right now), and for the latter, some incarnations of Superman, beings like the Q, Hellsing's Alucard, and several different Force-users including Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine all come to mind. But Cloud's easily tough enough that your objection about Aeris continually rescuing him is moot.

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Sadly, clouds superhuman abilities all come from the fact that nomura is a hack of a storyteller, who is incapable of creating anything original, and thus rips off other media for ideas and yet his direction is so ametuerish and covered up by production values that even when he copies formula's point for point, he fails to convey the same dramatic impact. Like I said, just say the word and I'll give you a shopping list for some films that are so well filmed that they show you that AC is not the greatest action film ever. And I find that the star wars refferrences are quite suitable seeing as how I would say that AC has less genuine story then even Phantom Menace, and I'd sooner see Jar Jar go to war again then see cloud work through his psychosis a third time. Or get resurrected yet again. I think he's been killed three or four times now? guys like a damn cockroach. Maybe you like a hero that is infallable, but a character who struggles, muddles through, and actually has to fight for what he has is far more likeable then an unkillable superman. In the star wars novels one of the writers went on record by saying that in the post Dark Empire stories, Luke Was nigh impossible to write for since he was so powerful in the force by that point. Which Zahn proved was not the case as like spiderman and superman, luke has to struggle with his powers and make sure they dont consume him and thus he is fallible. Finally having him and mara jade hook up also helped reveal a more human side to him, but thats for another post.

Also, you may consider that as someone who prides himself on being well read (I am studying to become a teacher in english, and martial arts in the near future) Ive SEEN films from japan, including anime and live action horror and action as well as from hong kong that have not been distributed by hollywood's studios, and after years of doing so I would not purchase a foreign movie distributed by an american studio due to the practice of shoddy translations, scene deletion, and cultural refferrences being deleted or edited as well the musical score being redone. I saw the hollywood distributed version of black mask before I saw the hong kong version, and yes they are worlds apart. The holllywood version cut 20 minutes of dialouge, character growth, and even some of the more interesting action scenes along with rewriting the script to be more happy happy and put in the awful rap musing where the original had quite the likeable jazzy mellow themes to underscore the action. So, yah. Ive seen more then the average joe and trust me. AC is Derivative. its Deus Ex Machina composed in cinematic form, and directed by a hack. Believe it or not, makes no difference. Its true. and once you've seen that much, your not going to find much to like in AC... though my younger female friends like to rewatch AC not for the story or action, but rather because they cant decide whether vincent or reno is hotter. Which, by the way is evidance enough of why they are "just friends" :rolleyes2

Kefka looks like a sideshow clown reject, I dont know wether it was Amano's art style or what but he looked positively whack, and during the 20 minutes of playing the game I heard his laugh and I just wanted to crush his 16 bit body. After facing Sephiroth Cloud would probably just laugh at him.

And killing Aeris is not the only thing Seph is remembered for, he also burned an entire city to the ground killing almost everyone by himself without special powers, I also remember how hard I struggled to get past Zolom without a chocobo my first time through the game, i final get past him like my 8th time and I walk in the cave, then I see a Zolom impaled on a tree, Sephiroth was cemented as a badass after that, and throughout the game you get little hints as too no matter how much you level up he will always be ahead of you, and Sephiroth didnt summon Meteor to destroy the world he summoned it so that he could gather all of the energy at the life stream, and I bet if he became a full god it wouldnt take just 4 16 bit characters that nobody outside of the regular fanboys/girls remembers to kill him, unlike Kefka.

On a side note, Cloud went through scientific testing, seeing his best friend gunned down, and his home town with his mother in it burned to the ground, and also seeing his supposed love interest impaled right before his eyes would make anybody unsure of himself, like in AC he comments on how they just watched her die, not to mention seph was smurfing with his mind the whole game, and people under severe psychological stress might see a ghost or two if they want to see him/her badly enough, I would want a ghost as strong as Aeris on my side. He also feels responsible for Zach since Zach probably wouldnt have died if he hadnt been taking care of Cloud. Zach told Cloud stories about all the things he wanted to do, and Cloud feeling guilty is basically living Zachs life in AC, this is alot of stress and pressure to lay on one mans shoulders(as if he was a real person:rolleyes2) and he still comes through at the end of the day, winning with style.

This isnt about whether VII is better than VI, Im sure VI is a very well written story, but without style to go along with substance you dont get very far, VII combines both style and substance and you get a smash hit which even people who never play an RPG's remember.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

you mind making some points instead of talking some smack? FFVII's idea of finding something to be attatched too is a contrived love triangle. FFVI's idea of finding something to be emotionally attatched to is taking a character who never HAD a childhood, who never knew her mother, who only knew her father's spirit, who had been raised since before she could crawl to KILL, and having her be responsible for a villaige of orphans.

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That wasn't even vaguely related to what you were replying to.

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Sephiroth was a wannabe who never could be. he couldnt obtain true power, so he used meteor. he could never get anything done himself, so he used cloud. His claim to fame is killing a church girl in a CGI cutscene, Kefka's claim to fame is mass genocide and creating an appocalypse. And your tyring to tell me Sephiroth did the whole god thing better? he looked prettier I suppose, but thats nothing to boast about.

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Once again, you're being a fanboy and ignoring the facts. You're overlooking the fact that Kefka's power was never his own. Sephiroth put together quite a complicated plan and accomplished it through sheer force of will; very few instances in FFVII were actually him, but projections of him operating under his direction. They were projections of his sheer will. And you're acting as though Sephiroth doesn't have a massive kill tally. All Kefka did was push a couple of statues around. It wasn't hard to figure out what he was doing. No one's saying Kefka isn't callous. He is. But he isn't as good of a villain.

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He was blown up, the entire surface of the building went kablooey. he was in the life stream and ended up back in the wellspring in the church. he was dead. Deal with it.

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No, he wasn't, as I prove below.

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and lets accept some real physics instead of fanboy physics here.

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You got another set of calcs? Let's hear 'em. Unless you're in the natural sciences, quite frankly I'd better not hear that out of you, because I AM. If I were practicing fanboy physics, I'd be trying to proclaim that Cloud is stronger than Galactus or Unicron. He's clearly not. I like Cloud and think he kicks a hell of a lot of ass, but I'm not going to go saying he can even hold a candle to full-fledged planet-eaters, or even much stronger melee combatants.

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Ive seen some incredible acts of stamina, endurance, power, and conditioning while studying martial arts.

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You've seen people survive city-destroying energy blasts, break every bone in their body and live, use telekinesis, and swing swords intended for mecha around like rag dolls? Man, I'd love to take classes at your dojo.

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But its also a fact that no matter how well conditioned and trained an individual is, if their heart is grievely injured, they are going to die. and if they do not die immediately then they will be incapable of acting with the same physical ability as they were previously before they die.

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Alucard can get literally shot to pieces with machine guns and reassemble himself. Jedi can heal after almost every bone in their body has been broken and consequently, much of their circulatory and nervous systems have been destroyed. Getting shot in the heart isn't an instant kill, and Cloud survives at full functionality, so obviously for someone with his strength or higher it isn't a fact.

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Sadly, clouds superhuman abilities all come from the fact that nomura is a hack of a storyteller, who is incapable of creating anything original, and thus rips off other media for ideas and yet his direction is so ametuerish and covered up by production values that even when he copies formula's point for point, he fails to convey the same dramatic impact.

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First you diss his strength after CLEAR proof that it's quite substantial, and now you switch tunes and acknowledge it only to half-assedly attempt to turn it on Nomura? You're treading thin ice, boy.

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Like I said, just say the word and I'll give you a shopping list for some films that are so well filmed that they show you that AC is not the greatest action film ever.

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When did I ever say it was the greatest action film ever? I personally enjoy it the most, but this alone doesn't make it the greatest; its audience is still a niche, even as large as the FF fanbase is.

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And I find that the star wars refferrences are quite suitable seeing as how I would say that AC has less genuine story then even Phantom Menace, and I'd sooner see Jar Jar go to war again then see cloud work through his psychosis a third time.

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Phantom Menace does have quite a bit of story. Unfortunately, it's bogged down by rather wooden acting.

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Maybe you like a hero that is infallable, but a character who struggles, muddles through, and actually has to fight for what he has is far more likeable then an unkillable superman.

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Cloud isn't unkillable. He's simply not easily defeated. No one's unkillable, not even Superman.

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In the star wars novels one of the writers went on record by saying that in the post Dark Empire stories, Luke Was nigh impossible to write for since he was so powerful in the force by that point. Which Zahn proved was not the case as like spiderman and superman, luke has to struggle with his powers and make sure they dont consume him and thus he is fallible. Finally having him and mara jade hook up also helped reveal a more human side to him, but thats for another post.

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Yes, I'm well aware of this. And Luke is indeed almost impossible to write for; I'm glad they finally did like Zahn had intended and hooked him and Mara up. There are those, of course, who call her a witch or a harlot, refusing to see the fact that his first "love," Shira Brie, is actively a Sith Lord.

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Also, you may consider that as someone who prides himself on being well read (I am studying to become a teacher in english, and martial arts in the near future) Ive SEEN films from japan, including anime and live action horror and action as well as from hong kong that have not been distributed by hollywood's studios, and after years of doing so I would not purchase a foreign movie distributed by an american studio due to the practice of shoddy translations, scene deletion, and cultural refferrences being deleted or edited as well the musical score being redone.

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So have many other people. This doesn't make you unique.

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So, yah. Ive seen more then the average joe and trust me. AC is Derivative. its Deus Ex Machina composed in cinematic form, and directed by a hack. Believe it or not, makes no difference. Its true. and once you've seen that much, your not going to find much to like in AC... though my younger female friends like to rewatch AC not for the story or action, but rather because they cant decide whether vincent or reno is hotter. Which, by the way is evidance enough of why they are "just friends" :rolleyes2

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I'd hardly consider myself an average Joe. I'll agree that AC doesn't have a particularly complex plot. Most movies don't. Did you want them to stretch it out to three hours long? Wait, actually, I wouldn't mind that. For what it was, it was damn good.

And SEPHIROTH is the hottest. Any other opinion is blasphemy. :love: :love:

Lemme guess, FFVII was the first RPG you ever played right? and you just cant play 16-bit cuz there isnt any FMV right? and your calling FFVI fans fanboys? whatever :rolleyes2

Zolom was a simple snake, Espers were creatures that nearly destroyed the world themselves, and Kefka killed them all. ALL OF THEM. AT ONCE! and actually if you had played the game instead of reading the summary, it took your entire party to fight him. Kefka would look at sephs leather lovin fetish and laugh in that laugh we all know and love and wipe him off the face of the earth. Say what you will about the wacky clown getup, but you mean to tell me you can look at sephs tight leather and big sword fetish and not shudder? Me no swing dat way thank you very much. seph was as incompetent as the man who created him (talkin bout Nomura here) and yes he did do more than that, but his resume peaks at "stabbed church girl through the chest, did I mention I love leather?" Spehs a pretender chum, aint nothin fanboyish about it. He just failed to accomplish half the villainy Kefka did. And yah yah, if he summoned the meteor and abosorbed the powers... woulda, coulda, didnt. End of story. Kefka is what the joker from batman would be if you gave him godlike powers. Seph? what exactly did he do besides burn down a hick town, mind funk cloud, stab a church girl, hide in a crater and impale zolom? Sorry but he's lame. Overrated. Maybe its the leather and big sword that draws his fans. :rolleyes2

And so cloud saw his hometown burned, Cyan saw his hometown poisoned. Cloud saw Aeries die, Cyan saw his wife and daughter die. Cloud didnt know who he was, Cyan wanted to hand over his soul to demons out of self destructive guilt. Cloud was experimented on for four years. Tifa was experimented on her whole life. Brainwashed? Yep, FFVI had that angle too, and did it better. Family issues, oh yah. romance, how can you not be moved by the tale of locke and celes? Sorry, just cuz you cant play a game without CGI and FMV doesnt make FFVI story or characters inferior. From a writing perspective, its one of the most epic and touching stories put to pen in videogames. Instead of cliche romance on the part of terra, we got her learning to love and relate to orphans, and realize how precious life is. main characters, main villains, main story, history, resolution, conflict, side quests, pound for pound FFVI wipes the floor with FFVII. Name one thing FFVII did well, FFVI did it better. FFVII wasnt awful, but it was shallow. irony is it was probably Nomura's best game and the only time he did a halfway decent love triangle. and since its now 8 years and several games later, its really sorta sad that he hasnt managed to surppass himself.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Lemme guess, FFVII was the first RPG you ever played right? and you just cant play 16-bit cuz there isnt any FMV right? and your calling FFVI fans fanboys? whatever :rolleyes2

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No. Knights of the Old Republic was the first RPG I ever played. I hold Chrono Trigger to be the greatest RPG in the field. I actually didn't play FFVII until this year.

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Zolom was a simple snake, Espers were creatures that nearly destroyed the world themselves, and Kefka killed them all. ALL OF THEM. AT ONCE! and actually if you had played the game instead of reading the summary, it took your entire party to fight him.

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I beat him easily with my first party. It doesn't take your entire party to fight him, unless your skill is deficient. Besides, several members of your party are completely worthless against the final few bosses anyway, like Umaro and Relm.

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Kefka would look at sephs leather lovin fetish and laugh in that laugh we all know and love and wipe him off the face of the earth. Say what you will about the wacky clown getup, but you mean to tell me you can look at sephs tight leather and big sword fetish and not shudder?

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Actually, I don't shudder. I'm quite aroused by it. If we're talking final form versus final form, the title easily goes to Sephiroth. If we're fighting regular versus regular...Sephiroth still takes it, because unlike Kefka, he's a competent physical fighter.

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Me no swing dat way thank you very much. seph was as incompetent as the man who created him (talkin bout Nomura here) and yes he did do more than that, but his resume peaks at "stabbed church girl through the chest, did I mention I love leather?" Spehs a pretender chum, aint nothin fanboyish about it. He just failed to accomplish half the villainy Kefka did. And yah yah, if he summoned the meteor and abosorbed the powers... woulda, coulda, didnt. End of story. Kefka is what the joker from batman would be if you gave him godlike powers. Seph? what exactly did he do besides burn down a hick town, mind funk cloud, stab a church girl, hide in a crater and impale zolom? Sorry but he's lame. Overrated. Maybe its the leather and big sword that draws his fans. :rolleyes2

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Snuck into one of the most heavily guarded buildings in the world and assassinated the leader of a multinational megacorporation, maybe? And you're trying to tell me that Shinra's heavier tech wouldn't easily slay Kefka. Their lighter tech would certainly fail against him, but I'd like to see him survive a shot from the Sister Ray. It's also true that Kefka committed near-genocide against the Espers.

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And so cloud saw his hometown burned, Cyan saw his hometown poisoned. Cloud saw Aeries die, Cyan saw his wife and daughter die. Cloud didnt know who he was, Cyan wanted to hand over his soul to demons out of self destructive guilt. Cloud was experimented on for four years. Tifa was experimented on her whole life.

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You mean Terra. Though that would be an interesting explanation for Tifa's knockers. While it is indeed true that Terra was experimented on for her entire life, the experimentation was not done by a mad scientist such as Hojo, but Cid. She was barely even brainwashed, considering that as soon as the Slave Crown is removed she not only abandons the Empire but in fact allies herself with the Returners. Cyan also didn't want to hand over anything.

Cloud's parents were also murdered; regardless of the fact that his memories were basically raped, he did come from Nibelhelm. Sephiroth also personally murdered the population of Nibelheim, and he was the man that Cloud looked up to. This was immediately followed by four years of torture at the hands of Hojo. I'm sure you also missed the fact that Cloud did just about the same thing for Sephiroth. By killing Aeris, Sephiroth is in a way responsible for genocide, though this admittedly lacks the magnitude of largely destroying the Espers.

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Brainwashed? Yep, FFVI had that angle too, and did it better.

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Hardly. Once the Slave Crown was removed, she left. Apparently the Empire needs to update its brainwashing techniques.

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romance, how can you not be moved by the tale of locke and celes?

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Mainly because it's cliched. Celes came off as a simple replacement for Rachel. If they'd just left it with the Phoenix Magicite, it would have been flawless.

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Sorry, just cuz you cant play a game without CGI and FMV doesnt make FFVI story or characters inferior. From a writing perspective, its one of the most epic and touching stories put to pen in videogames.

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Ah, the faux-arrogance and fanboyism again. The story's good, but it isn't flawless. FFVII's isn't flawless, either. But Nomura's style wins out in the end, because of the greater realism involved.

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Instead of cliche romance on the part of terra, we got her learning to love and relate to orphans, and realize how precious life is.

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And this isn't cliched?

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main characters, main villains, main story, history, resolution, conflict, side quests, pound for pound FFVI wipes the floor with FFVII.

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Once again, you're grievously in error, though I suppose it's to be expected. It's better in some areas, definitely. I will grant you that Kefka did accomplish more despicable acts than Sephiroth. This is all I will grant you.

:lol: Just keep proclaiming the guy with the John Wayne Gacy complex as the end all villian, Im sure someone will listen to you. Kefka doesnt even have is own good theme song, Sephiroth has the best villian theme song since the imperial march. I never said Zolom was supremely strong I just said that it is nearly impossible to beat him at the beginning of the game, and when you do after many tries you see it simply impaled on a tree, and the tight leather you refer to is a soldier's uniform not a clown costume, and I've beaten many 16 bit games, like most of Zelda's games, Castlevania and fire emblem games. I just couldnt get interested into VI, I dont know why it just got me bored.

BTW my first RPG was VIII, then IX, then VII, VIII is my favorite and then VII in a close second. My third favorite RPG(Grandia 3) of all time didnt have any FMV's so your argument is out the window. And what I said holds true not many people outside of FF fanboys/girls hold VI higher than VII in any regard, if they did they would have made a movie about VI instead of VII.

VI does tend to drag in the second half; it utterly lacks direction. Those who complain about VII's linearity have something of a point, but in order to have a focused story, linearity is required to some degree.

Neither Kefka nor Sephiroth's main "I'm about to do something evil" theme was that good, but One-Winged Angel is a goddamned masterpiece, easily the best battle theme ever composed for a game. However, one must also acknowledge Dancing Mad; it is a truly great piece of music. The final boss themes for VI through VIII were all top-notch examples of composition and engineering.

Neither Kefka nor Sephiroth is the end-all-be-all villain, either. In my mind, that title is solely reserved for Anakin Skywalker.

Yes I agree, Anakin/Vader set the standard for villians forever, If you think about it Sephiroth is just like Anakin in some respects, former hero, momma's boy's, and supremely powerful, except the fact that Seph never turns good, and is never horribly scarred. The tragedy of Sephiroth is that he was human, he was a hero and many soldiers looked up to him, and his mom was a good person and not the planet killer he thought she was. His anger should have been directed at Shin Ra instead of at the planet and its people.

Yeah, there are plenty of reasons to hate Shinra. I seriously doubt that Rufus will continue to pursue a planet-conscious agenda.

But the core problem isn't just Shinra; Sephiroth's nuttier than a jar of Planters.

As for the actual subject of the thread, which we haven't talked about for an entire page, the ratings may very well have been bought, at least to an extent. Some of them are going to be genuinely raving over the film. It isn't a towering spectacle of greatness in the larger sense, but for its intended audience, it approaches this designation. I suppose we'll find out when it's officially released over here what its true mettle is.

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Originally Posted by ?????

I beat him easily with my first party. It doesn't take your entire party to fight him, unless your skill is deficient. Besides, several members of your party are completely worthless against the final few bosses anyway, like Umaro and Relm.

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While Relm wasnt much use in the final battle, her sketch command can be very fun and useful. and Umaro was actually the guy who landed the killing blow on Kefka first time in, give him a green cherry and he just dominates.

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Originally Posted by ?????

Actually, I don't shudder. I'm quite aroused by it. If we're talking final form versus final form, the title easily goes to Sephiroth. If we're fighting regular versus regular...Sephiroth still takes it, because unlike Kefka, he's a competent physical fighter.

Snuck into one of the most heavily guarded buildings in the world and assassinated the leader of a multinational megacorporation, maybe? And you're trying to tell me that Shinra's heavier tech wouldn't easily slay Kefka. Their lighter tech would certainly fail against him, but I'd like to see him survive a shot from the Sister Ray. It's also true that Kefka committed near-genocide against the Espers.

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physical ability doesnt mean a thing to a person who vaporizes mythical beasts with the wave of his pinky. Even the most well conditioned martial artist is no match for projectile weaponry. The weapons in FFVII had the power to destory, their in game descriptions matches the tone if not content of how the espers were described, yet what were major battles for your party, a party who at that point was already strong enough to take down seph and jenova, Kefka was laughed, and waved his hand. This was BEFORE becoming a god mind you. I dont have to imagine anything or breath anything into the story to know who was the more powerful. as for the whole advanced tech argument, the empire had advanced tech too mind you, and they got smacked down by the espers... who were effortless slaughtered by who again?






[QUOTE=?????] You mean Terra. Though that would be an interesting explanation for Tifa's knockers. While it is indeed true that Terra was experimented on for her entire life, the experimentation was not done by a mad scientist such as Hojo, but Cid. She was barely even brainwashed, considering that as soon as the Slave Crown is removed she not only abandons the Empire but in fact allies herself with the Returners.

Hardly. Once the Slave Crown was removed, she left. Apparently the Empire needs to update its brainwashing techniques.

Under that brainwashing how many people did she kill? We see her as a young adult slaughtering trained soldiers at kefka's whim, not cid's. Cid was responsible for creating Magitek warriors, it was implied that terra's upbringing was left to the emperor, kefka, and various operations she performed with the slave crown. One must wonder how many more died as kefka and the Emperor played with their human toy.

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Originally Posted by ?????

Cloud's parents were also murdered; regardless of the fact that his memories were basically raped, he did come from Nibelhelm. Sephiroth also personally murdered the population of Nibelheim, and he was the man that Cloud looked up to. This was immediately followed by four years of torture at the hands of Hojo. I'm sure you also missed the fact that Cloud did just about the same thing for Sephiroth. By killing Aeris, Sephiroth is in a way responsible for genocide, though this admittedly lacks the magnitude of largely destroying the Espers.

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While clouds hometown getting smoked was tragic, I still feel it lacks the power of cyans debut. Cyan watched his people die before him. One by one. He saw his wife and daughter breathe their last breath while most of the deaths in nibelhelm occurred off camera. Cyan later saw his family again as their souls left for the land of the dead, further driving home the fact that he had failed to protect them and that he would never see them again.

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Originally Posted by ?????

Cyan also didn't want to hand over anything.

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He literally came out and said it himself that he wanted to die, that he deserved to die. wrexsoul stated that cyans self loathing was what drew him and that this was what cyan wanted. Destruction for his failure.

[QUOTE=?????] Mainly because it's cliched. Celes came off as a simple replacement for Rachel. If they'd just left it with the Phoenix Magicite, it would have been flawless.

I disagree, It took a while for feelings to develop between them. Locke really first noticed celes at the opera house when she was all dolled up and even went so far as to play leading man to her leading lady once ultros buggered things up. Its true she did feel gratitude towards him for protecting her initially. But gratitude isnt romance, but can lead to it. Her chilly response to Edgar's assumption that she might have feelings for him shows where her thoughts were at the time. Celes also didnt so much love locke in the world of ruin, but didnt want to be alone. Hence her suicide attempt. After finding that eagle with lockes headband she realized others had survived and that she wasnt as alone as she thought. It wasnt until the end where it was implied that the subtle feelings developing between eachother would be consumated off camera, the way the ending Dramatis Personelle lists their names together, and how locke had found closure with rachael after having used the pheonix magicite and forgiven himself and the somewhat tender moment after he saves her from falling. Like I said, subtle, but touching. Locke's learning to love again, and Celes being torn down from independant soldier to someone who sincerely couldnt stand to be alone complimented eachother, and built very slowly.

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Originally Posted by ?????

Ah, the faux-arrogance and fanboyism again. The story's good, but it isn't flawless. FFVII's isn't flawless, either. But Nomura's style wins out in the end, because of the greater realism involved.

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Again, disagree. FFVII did have its moments, I liked yuffie and vincent. RedXIII and CId, but the rest of the main cast had just been done before. like I keep saying, the idea of terra wanting to know love and finding it not in romance but in something more basic and central to her character was very fitting. Cyans tale of self destructive guilt and anger was also very poignant. Even Setzer, the gambler had a few good moments and his backstory had a very likeable sense of irony, furthered by the hints that the mimic you find on triangle island could very well be Daryl. Edgar and Sabin's backstory was amusing, espescially when you find that Edgar cheated Sabin out of the kingdom, yet became quite the responsible king. Gau's backstory while sweet, touching, and brief also allowed for Terra and Celes to get in some rare and much needed comedic moments, or is the humor of the poster girls of angst and depression in full girlish shopping mode and ready to tear any man who mocks their shopping spree apart lost on you? And the opera scene itself I consider glorious. Perhaps it's just my fascination with the old school opera, but the oil painiting feel and music was nothing less than perfect in setting a mood. Even shadow, managed to get in some actual character development whereas his oppisite number in FFVII, vincent, remains very much the same as he's always been for the past eight years. FFVI is the better story hands down. Its twists are more clever, its characters are more complicated, its villains more loathsome and its plot progression more unpredictable. Also as a game it had more depth, more replay value, harder bosses and more interesting side quests.

as for FFVII's realism, I guess its all in what you look for in your fictional characters. Cloud is full of pseudo angst and half hearted resolution. He's someone who would probably own every creed record ever madeand he had a more humble beginning, where characters like Cyan, Relm, Edgar, Terra, Locke, and most of the cast of FFVI are cut from the heroic model.. I can see a certain audiance being drawn to him rather then the more old school heroic modelled characters of FFVI.
But part of the appeal of FFVI's cast is despite their pedigree as far as regular characters go, they struggled against some seriously awful issues and saw the end of the world and lived through hell on earth, and embodied the concept of hope and dreams and rebuilding from tradgedy while cloud and co. simply went through the motions of similar drama.

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Instead of cliche romance on the part of terra, we got her learning to love and relate to orphans, and realize how precious life is.


And this isn't cliched?

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It could have been, but it was handled effectively. Would you rather her fall hopelessly in love with one of the main characters(note, since when has this NOT happened in a Nomura title)? or have her forge an emotional attatchment with those who have had their families taken away from them just like she did, and protect them in a way that she never was? the former is cliche, the latter actually has some emotional resonnance and leads to some creative character development.

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Originally Posted by ?????

As for the actual subject of the thread, which we haven't talked about for an entire page, the ratings may very well have been bought, at least to an extent. Some of them are going to be genuinely raving over the film. It isn't a towering spectacle of greatness in the larger sense, but for its intended audience, it approaches this designation. I suppose we'll find out when it's officially released over here what its true mettle is.

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Agreed, and thats what bloody well galls me, the plot of a movie is whack yet its given 95%? This isnt a video game where we play to have fun, Ive overlooked weak or lacking plots for the sake of good gameplay. But in a movie, if the plot sucks then the movie sucks, I dont care how cool the action is. Then PSXUK says the story is "SPECTACULAR". Like hell I know sephiroth fangirls who spit on the plot of AC but watch it just to ogle Bishonen. and considering that EGM is releasing a new 100 best games of all time in next weeks release, I fully expect to see FFVI lose its spot as the top ranked FF title (it got ranked #6 five years ago) and also see FFIX lose its spot as the top ranked 32-bit title and see FFVII all over the place considering how since they got restaffed they've been kissing FFVII's ass.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

While Relm wasnt much use in the final battle, her sketch command can be very fun and useful. and Umaro was actually the guy who landed the killing blow on Kefka first time in, give him a green cherry and he just dominates.

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Oh, she was fun. I'm still not much of a fan of Umaro, though.

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physical ability doesnt mean a thing to a person who vaporizes mythical beasts with the wave of his pinky. Even the most well conditioned martial artist is no match for projectile weaponry. The weapons in FFVII had the power to destory, their in game descriptions matches the tone if not content of how the espers were described, yet what were major battles for your party, a party who at that point was already strong enough to take down seph and jenova, Kefka was laughed, and waved his hand. This was BEFORE becoming a god mind you. I dont have to imagine anything or breath anything into the story to know who was the more powerful. as for the whole advanced tech argument, the empire had advanced tech too mind you, and they got smacked down by the espers... who were effortless slaughtered by who again?

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Physical ability still does mean quite a bit. Energy is energy, no matter what form it's delivered to a target in. Whether a kilojoule of energy is directed against a target in the form of a fireball or a hammer swing, it's going to have roughly the same effect, except if a person is more vulnerable to one type of damage than the other. Kefka is not that adept physically. He also hardly vaporized them with "a wave of his pinky"; Kefka did expend effort to destroy the Espers. Not that offing them wasn't a mighty accomplishment or anything, but he didn't do it that easily. As for the technology, the Empire's machines are hardly comparable to Shinra's.

The weapons in VII were also far more powerful than Espers, considering that at the stage of Kefka's development where he beats them, a comparatively low-level party can defeat him, and none of VI's party members display anywhere near the level of physical strength that Cloud does, and judging by that, they also lack the magical prowess of Aeris or Red XIII. Kefka's certainly a formidable force after he's stolen the power of the statues, but he doesn't compare to Sephiroth's god-form.

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Under that brainwashing how many people did she kill? We see her as a young adult slaughtering trained soldiers at kefka's whim, not cid's. Cid was responsible for creating Magitek warriors, it was implied that terra's upbringing was left to the emperor, kefka, and various operations she performed with the slave crown. One must wonder how many more died as kefka and the Emperor played with their human toy.

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Probably a lot of people died. It's quite tragic, but she was not tortured. Torture trumps everything.

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While clouds hometown getting smoked was tragic, I still feel it lacks the power of cyans debut. Cyan watched his people die before him. One by one. He saw his wife and daughter breathe their last breath while most of the deaths in nibelhelm occurred off camera. Cyan later saw his family again as their souls left for the land of the dead, further driving home the fact that he had failed to protect them and that he would never see them again.

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I won't deny that it ached to see Cyan's family getting on the Phantom Train. Cyan was actually there to watch his family die; this is roughly equaled by the fact that Sephiroth was Cloud's hero. Seeing what happened to Cloud would be like if George Lucas took a hacksaw and murdered my entire family.

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He literally came out and said it himself that he wanted to die, that he deserved to die. wrexsoul stated that cyans self loathing was what drew him and that this was what cyan wanted. Destruction for his failure.

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I forgot why that was relevant, honestly.

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I disagree, It took a while for feelings to develop between them. Locke really first noticed celes at the opera house when she was all dolled up and even went so far as to play leading man to her leading lady once ultros buggered things up. Its true she did feel gratitude towards him for protecting her initially. But gratitude isnt romance, but can lead to it. Her chilly response to Edgar's assumption that she might have feelings for him shows where her thoughts were at the time. Celes also didnt so much love locke in the world of ruin, but didnt want to be alone. Hence her suicide attempt. After finding that eagle with lockes headband she realized others had survived and that she wasnt as alone as she thought. It wasnt until the end where it was implied that the subtle feelings developing between eachother would be consumated off camera, the way the ending Dramatis Personelle lists their names together, and how locke had found closure with rachael after having used the pheonix magicite and forgiven himself and the somewhat tender moment after he saves her from falling. Like I said, subtle, but touching. Locke's learning to love again, and Celes being torn down from independant soldier to someone who sincerely couldnt stand to be alone complimented eachother, and built very slowly.

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I'd like Celes, too. She's a cutie pie. She'd probably kick my ass, but I'd hit on her. But their romance does seem a bit contrived. Given Cloud's history, the love triangle he deals with is not only a realistic expectation, but vital to his development.

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Again, disagree. FFVII did have its moments, I liked yuffie and vincent. RedXIII and CId, but the rest of the main cast had just been done before. like I keep saying, the idea of terra wanting to know love and finding it not in romance but in something more basic and central to her character was very fitting. Cyans tale of self destructive guilt and anger was also very poignant.

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Most casts of most stories have been done before, to an extent. Every hero has problems. Cloud's history easily surpasses many in terms of the associated degree of mental agony, but Barret, despite being a gun-toting badass, is just as conscientious as Cyan; he wouldn't be fighting Shinra if he wasn't. He's hardly just a clone of Mr. T, though he has the bling for it. Barret's town was also razed in Shinra's destructive pursuit of power. He lost his best friend in that incident, only to have to lose him to suicide all over again years later.

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Even Setzer, the gambler had a few good moments and his backstory had a very likeable sense of irony, furthered by the hints that the mimic you find on triangle island could very well be Daryl. Edgar and Sabin's backstory was amusing, espescially when you find that Edgar cheated Sabin out of the kingdom, yet became quite the responsible king. Gau's backstory while sweet, touching, and brief also allowed for Terra and Celes to get in some rare and much needed comedic moments, or is the humor of the poster girls of angst and depression in full girlish shopping mode and ready to tear any man who mocks their shopping spree apart lost on you? And the opera scene itself I consider glorious. Perhaps it's just my fascination with the old school opera, but the oil painiting feel and music was nothing less than perfect in setting a mood. Even shadow, managed to get in some actual character development whereas his oppisite number in FFVII, vincent, remains very much the same as he's always been for the past eight years. FFVI is the better story hands down. Its twists are more clever, its characters are more complicated, its villains more loathsome and its plot progression more unpredictable. Also as a game it had more depth, more replay value, harder bosses and more interesting side quests.

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Never said they weren't generally good characters. But I'd venture that Cloud is easily more complicated than the lot of them combined. He's hardly filled with "pseudo-angst"; he has very real and very large issues. He isn't Squall, either; he cares about other people without having a gun at his head. However, his story was not fully resolved in FFVII; hence, Advent Children. I'd also hardly say VI's twists were more clever; finding out you were being manipulated never goes over well with a character, but it's hard to see the sheer scale of Cloud's manipulation coming. The twists in most Final Fantasy games can be foreseen to a degree; they have to have an evil plot to foil, they have to have a catastrophe, and they have to have some kind of identity crisis. It was fairly hard not to see that something bad was going to happen to Aeris after she left the party, but she's a lovable and honorable character, so much that people actually refused to believe she had died and spent years trying to resurrect her. None of VI's characters engendered that kind of attachment, not even General Leo.

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where characters like Cyan, Relm, Edgar, Terra, Locke, and most of the cast of FFVI are cut from the heroic model.. I can see a certain audiance being drawn to him rather then the more old school heroic modelled characters of FFVI.

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VI's characters are indeed more old-school than VII's cast, but it's hard to argue that Cloud isn't a hero after what he manages to do. It's also possible that this phenomenon occurs simply because VI's environment is more old-school than VII's sci-fi dystopia.

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But part of the appeal of FFVI's cast is despite their pedigree as far as regular characters go, they struggled against some seriously awful issues and saw the end of the world and lived through hell on earth, and embodied the concept of hope and dreams and rebuilding from tradgedy while cloud and co. simply went through the motions of similar drama.

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I'm not sure how it's possible to "go through the motions" of a quest to save the world. The end of the world does come after a fashion in the end of VII, as well.

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It could have been, but it was handled effectively. Would you rather her fall hopelessly in love with one of the main characters(note, since when has this NOT happened in a Nomura title)? or have her forge an emotional attatchment with those who have had their families taken away from them just like she did, and protect them in a way that she never was? the former is cliche, the latter actually has some emotional resonnance and leads to some creative character development.

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I don't mind love stories, but Terra was handled well with regards to her character. I still think she deserves a d00d, though. Or a chick, if she swings that way. Or maybe both. Green-haired girls are hot.

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Agreed, and thats what bloody well galls me, the plot of a movie is whack yet its given 95%? This isnt a video game where we play to have fun, Ive overlooked weak or lacking plots for the sake of good gameplay. But in a movie, if the plot sucks then the movie sucks, I dont care how cool the action is. Then PSXUK says the story is "SPECTACULAR". Like hell I know sephiroth fangirls who spit on the plot of AC but watch it just to ogle Bishonen. and considering that EGM is releasing a new 100 best games of all time in next weeks release, I fully expect to see FFVI lose its spot as the top ranked FF title (it got ranked #6 five years ago) and also see FFIX lose its spot as the top ranked 32-bit title and see FFVII all over the place considering how since they got restaffed they've been kissing FFVII's ass.

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If the magazine was downplaying VII, it can expect to receive a backlash due to the game's massive fanbase. Some of them will have better reasons than others for it. I can certainly understand if someone chooses to rank VI or IX above VII. They're both excellent games. However, if it's done merely to spite the most popular entry, it doesn't fly either logically or with the fanbase. The purpose of the magazine is to sell subscriptions. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know what specifically they were doing, since I don't read EGM regularly.

http://www.geocities.com/thesephyfan/images/AC_2.jpg
Badass! :radred:

http://www.ff-rpg.com/ff6kefka.jpg
Look at this cake.:lol: Tell him he'd be more threatening without the makeup.

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Physical ability still does mean quite a bit. Energy is energy, no matter what form it's delivered to a target in. Whether a kilojoule of energy is directed against a target in the form of a fireball or a hammer swing, it's going to have roughly the same effect, except if a person is more vulnerable to one type of damage than the other. Kefka is not that adept physically. He also hardly vaporized them with "a wave of his pinky"; Kefka did expend effort to destroy the Espers. Not that offing them wasn't a mighty accomplishment or anything, but he didn't do it that easily. As for the technology, the Empire's machines are hardly comparable to Shinra's.

The weapons in VII were also far more powerful than Espers, considering that at the stage of Kefka's development where he beats them, a comparatively low-level party can defeat him, and none of VI's party members display anywhere near the level of physical strength that Cloud does, and judging by that, they also lack the magical prowess of Aeris or Red XIII. Kefka's certainly a formidable force after he's stolen the power of the statues, but he doesn't compare to Sephiroth's god-form.

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The empire had mecha, aircraft, cannons, and had perfected creating artificial life forms where the technology in FFVII had not yet gotten to the point where they could literally create a organic creature. This should show that despite the old school design, the empire did indeed have superior tech, and kefka wiped out the Espers who laid seige to the Empire's crib and threatened to wipe out the world. Thus proving that yep, he could indeed take on the forces of shinra, who did not have as advanced tech and wipe the floor with mere mortal sephiroth. And he was a match for the forces threatening the world BEFORE godhood. whereas seph, though indeed powerful, needed additional help from meteor before he could do the whole global armegeddon thing.

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Probably a lot of people died. It's quite tragic, but she was not tortured. Torture trumps everything.

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Not quite, cloud had a childhood. He had a family. He grew up, knew what it was to reach adulthood. Choose his own path. Terra could do none of those things. She only knew how to be a weapon, she was a moral, and emotional blank slate who only knew how to kill. Emotional Demons from within are always more formidable than outer threats, in one episode of Star Trek TNG Gowron says to piccard "have you ever tried to fight an idea? It has no body to kill". Terra had emotional demons running around inside her, and nothing to hold onto to give her comfort. regaining her memories only made her more conflicted and scared, she was a hybrid of two races who hated eachother, and knew that she may face danger from either species because of her uniqueness. Clouds "Torture" ended up making him stronger (a really contrived plot point Ive always felt) and more capable of fighting back. As far as evil genious go, Ive always felt hojo had more evil and less genious in him. If your gonna create a frankenstein you nitwit, have a way to kill it when it gets out of control. Terra had to muddle through her personnal demons with no outside help and make her own choices in the dark, with little to no help from anyone which makes her more sympathetic in my eyes.

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Most casts of most stories have been done before, to an extent. Every hero has problems. Cloud's history easily surpasses many in terms of the associated degree of mental agony,

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Disagree, cloud couldnt even recall the torture until that one sidequest, and by then he had already made peace with his past thus negating any possible negative consequences the memory of that torture and experimentation might have had. and not knowing who he was, being mindfunked, seeing his friend Aeries die (wanna talk replacements? cloud couldnt even replace Zach in Aeries eyes, it was always obvious. She just went on that date to remind herself of him so yah, while he may have had it pretty bad for her, it was obvious where her heart was), sure its unpleasent but as ive already stated, FFVI had some more meatier angst for its players to chew on.

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I forgot why that was relevant, honestly.

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You stated cyan did not hand over his soul to wrexsoul, and I was letting you know he did indeed choose oblivion rather than live in agony until his family intervened.

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Never said they weren't generally good characters. But I'd venture that Cloud is easily more complicated than the lot of them combined. He's hardly filled with "pseudo-angst"; he has very real and very large issues. He isn't Squall, either; he cares about other people without having a gun at his head. However, his story was not fully resolved in FFVII; hence, Advent Children. I'd also hardly say VI's twists were more clever; finding out you were being manipulated never goes over well with a character, but it's hard to see the sheer scale of Cloud's manipulation coming. The twists in most Final Fantasy games can be foreseen to a degree; they have to have an evil plot to foil, they have to have a catastrophe, and they have to have some kind of identity crisis. It was fairly hard not to see that something bad was going to happen to Aeris after she left the party, but she's a lovable and honorable character, so much that people actually refused to believe she had died and spent years trying to resurrect her. None of VI's characters engendered that kind of attachment, not even General Leo.

VI's characters are indeed more old-school than VII's cast, but it's hard to argue that Cloud isn't a hero after what he manages to do. It's also possible that this phenomenon occurs simply because VI's environment is more old-school than VII's sci-fi dystopia.

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first of all... DOOD! the friggin world ended. Millions died. Hope was something that had to be fostered and held onto, made manifest by hardwork, blood, and tears. and your calling midgar a dystopia?

As for cloud being more complicated Disagree heavily.
In comparison, cloud just never felt real. When I say going through the motions, think of harrison ford's performance in Return of the Jedi. Yah he was supposed to play reformed, not dopey. and what was up with the spare tire harrison? that carbonite was supposed to keep you perfectly preserved. He read the lines, and gave appropriate facial expressions, but there was no emotional resonnance with his performance. Ditto with cloud. all his power comes from accidents, geneticly experimented on, thrown into the lifestream, guarded from beyond by Aeries. His issues were that he was weak as a child, yet all his misfortunes take care of that for him instead of him actually working for what he has. He lost his family, betrayed by someone he respected, but this is all so common in RPG's. Barrett had the same misfortune, yet he actually cared and stuck it through, working to make the world a better place instead of pretending he was something he wasnt. Clouds story just feels like a set of coincidances instead of a genuine struggle. Even his major breakthrough was a case of tifa holding his hand and guiding him through. I also felt that cloud should not have been so powerful after accepting his weaknesses, he should should have had to face his follies and idiocy on his own and work it through in time, instead of being superpowerful because of genetic experimentation and lifestream. Sure his friends could cheer him on, but he needed to face the consequences of his decisions, overcome his disassociative and cowardly nature on his own but never did. in comparison the resonnance I find in Sakaguchi's direction is that all characters have to confront their demons on their own and accept the consequences. Cyan had to accept that his family still loved him, that he was worthy to protect the happiness of those still alive, and maybe even love another. It took coaching from his family and friends, where cloud required handholding and copouts, and Cyan eventually pulled through, wheras Cloud was practically spoon fed his breaks while he just carried a big sword and grew more and more powerful through the power of plot contrivance rather than skilled direction and writing.

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I don't mind love stories, but Terra was handled well with regards to her character. I still think she deserves a d00d, though. Or a chick, if she swings that way. Or maybe both. Green-haired girls are hot.

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I was quite happy with terra learning to love and forge emotional attatchments and to protect what was precious to her, almost at the cost of her own life. It was less stereotypical that way. As for her ending up with someone, I would have liked to see some signs of her and Edgar getting closer in the same ways the plot showed Locke and Celes edging together but not getting together just yet. Despite his playboy ways, he really was a good king and would have been good for her as he proved he was capable of being responsible and looking out for the needs of others, and she would have benifitted by that example. Also her half esper nature would garuntee he would end his playboy ways, lest face getting his ass kicked.

And as for the funnyboy

http://figarocastle.homemade-website.../PSX/PSX23.jpg

I much prefer this one, nowhere near amano's original concept art, which Is pretty hard to find right now, but still does an alright job of conveying his insanity.

http://www.geocities.com/esca_junkie/amano.jpg

This being one of the rare amano sketches I could find, not exactly kefka at his best, but still more villainous than
....


THIS!

http://www.geocities.com/thesephyfan/images/AC_1.jpg

okay seph, give me pouty, thats right bat those eyes. Can we get makeup in here, his mascera's running.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The empire had mecha, aircraft, cannons, and had perfected creating artificial life forms where the technology in FFVII had not yet gotten to the point where they could literally create a organic creature. This should show that despite the old school design, the empire did indeed have superior tech, and kefka wiped out the Espers who laid seige to the Empire's crib and threatened to wipe out the world. Thus proving that yep, he could indeed take on the forces of shinra, who did not have as advanced tech and wipe the floor with mere mortal sephiroth. And he was a match for the forces threatening the world BEFORE godhood. whereas seph, though indeed powerful, needed additional help from meteor before he could do the whole global armegeddon thing.

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FF VI EMPIRE PRIZED POSSESSION

http://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/mtekarmor.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/officer.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/prometheus.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/protoarmor.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/ralph.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/rider.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/scullion.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/skyarmor.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/spforces.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/trapper.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/pipsqueak.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/vectorpup.gif

http://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/guardian.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/airforce.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/crane-both.gif

The above are mostly the core of the Empire Forces. Mainly mechanical and natural organics units.

http://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/magroader1.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/number024.gifhttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff6en/number128.gif

Here are some which can be defined as artificial organic lifeforms. They sure doesn't look very PERFECTED to me.

FF VII SOME SHINRA ARTIFICIAL ORGANIC LIFEFORM


http://www.ffonline.com/1_ff7en/poodler.jpghttp://www.ffonline.com/1_ff7en/badrap.jpg

Here is some artificial lifeform that Hojo produce during your fight with him. In FF VII, They can create artificial organic lifeform too.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The empire had mecha, aircraft, cannons, and had perfected creating artificial life forms where the technology in FFVII had not yet gotten to the point where they could literally create a organic creature. This should show that despite the old school design, the empire did indeed have superior tech, and kefka wiped out the Espers who laid seige to the Empire's crib and threatened to wipe out the world. Thus proving that yep, he could indeed take on the forces of shinra, who did not have as advanced tech and wipe the floor with mere mortal sephiroth. And he was a match for the forces threatening the world BEFORE godhood. whereas seph, though indeed powerful, needed additional help from meteor before he could do the whole global armegeddon thing.

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The Empire did indeed have mecha, cannons, and aircraft, but they were all quite primitive, as is evidenced by the amateurish design of the Magitek walkers; they're similar to the Imperial/Republic AT-RT in that the pilot is exposed to enemy fire, melee attacks, and in Final Fantasy's case, magic spells such as Fire. Not the best way to design combat drones. Shinra's mecha would literally walk all over the Empire's without having to fire a single shot. Their cannons were also primitive when compared to the heavy machine guns and pulse lasers used by Shinra, and their air fleet was highly limited, when compared to Shinra's bevy of tank drones, massive mecha, more powerful directed energy weapons, helicopters, planes, jeeps, and other similar vehicles. The technology in VI also did not have the ability to actually genetically engineer lifeforms, only to pervert existing ones. Thus far, only Shinra has been demonstrated to have this capability, and they're far closer to perfecting it; their creatures are capable of heavy-weapons grade attacks.

A friendly tip on assessing technological advancement: for a more accurate result, you must consider not just the different types of technology present, but also the actual energy usage of the two (or more) organizations you're comparing. The Sister Ray alone dwarfed the power usage of anything in the Empire; this doesn't even get into the postmodern amenities widely available. A fitting example would be Romulan cloaking technology versus a Star Destroyer. The Romulans' cloak does more for them than the Empire's Phantom TIEs, but the Star Destroyer's sheer shield and weapon power will more than offset this; even though the Romulans can move around freely, they're unable to damage the Star Destroyer, and thus the Imperials will eventually win when one of them gets a lucky shot at the distortions.

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Not quite, cloud had a childhood. He had a family. He grew up, knew what it was to reach adulthood. Choose his own path. Terra could do none of those things. She only knew how to be a weapon, she was a moral, and emotional blank slate who only knew how to kill. Emotional Demons from within are always more formidable than outer threats, in one episode of Star Trek TNG Gowron says to piccard "have you ever tried to fight an idea? It has no body to kill". Terra had emotional demons running around inside her, and nothing to hold onto to give her comfort. regaining her memories only made her more conflicted and scared, she was a hybrid of two races who hated eachother, and knew that she may face danger from either species because of her uniqueness. Clouds "Torture" ended up making him stronger (a really contrived plot point Ive always felt) and more capable of fighting back. As far as evil genious go, Ive always felt hojo had more evil and less genious in him. If your gonna create a frankenstein you nitwit, have a way to kill it when it gets out of control. Terra had to muddle through her personnal demons with no outside help and make her own choices in the dark, with little to no help from anyone which makes her more sympathetic in my eyes.

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I wouldn't say Terra had no outside help, just like I wouldn't say that Cloud did it all himself. Nobody ever does when it comes to emotions. Cloud's torturous ordeal did end with his physical strength being substantially higher due to the nature of the experiments to which he was subjected, but his mind was absolutely broken. He never would have pulled out of it if not for the people who cared about him, even given his extreme constitution.

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Disagree, cloud couldnt even recall the torture until that one sidequest, and by then he had already made peace with his past thus negating any possible negative consequences the memory of that torture and experimentation might have had. and not knowing who he was, being mindfunked, seeing his friend Aeries die (wanna talk replacements? cloud couldnt even replace Zach in Aeries eyes, it was always obvious. She just went on that date to remind herself of him so yah, while he may have had it pretty bad for her, it was obvious where her heart was), sure its unpleasent but as ive already stated, FFVI had some more meatier angst for its players to chew on.

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I'm pretty sure he recalled his torture before that; he does say to them that he was experimented on by Hojo, with the Shinra Mansion scene merely detailing the specifics, and even if he didn't, peace isn't a one-time thing. It's a daily struggle. The difference between Locke trying to replace someone and Aeris is that Cloud bears more than a passing resemblance to Zack; part of Zack's personality has been embedded inside him, he carried Zack's sword, and the black-haired SOLDIER was the closest thing he had to a friend.

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You stated cyan did not hand over his soul to wrexsoul, and I was letting you know he did indeed choose oblivion rather than live in agony until his family intervened.

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Ah, yes. It's understandable that he'd want to die, but I don't think that's what he had in mind.

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first of all... DOOD! the friggin world ended. Millions died. Hope was something that had to be fostered and held onto, made manifest by hardwork, blood, and tears. and your calling midgar a dystopia?

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Midgar is a dystopia. So is the world under Kefka. The thing is, the world in FFVII only "ends," as you describe it, offscreen for the most part, whereas it happens onscreen in FFVI. The cataclysm in VII is more of a day-to-day thing, a slow process of having the life choked out of the human race, rather than one massive event. That's how most horrible occurrences happen in real life, actually; the extreme cases, like 9/11, Pearl Harbor, the JFK assassination, and others are the exception rather than the rule.

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As for cloud being more complicated Disagree heavily. In comparison, cloud just never felt real.

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Part of Cloud wasn't real, so in a certain way your sentiments are dead-on.

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When I say going through the motions, think of harrison ford's performance in Return of the Jedi. Yah he was supposed to play reformed, not dopey. and what was up with the spare tire harrison? that carbonite was supposed to keep you perfectly preserved. He read the lines, and gave appropriate facial expressions, but there was no emotional resonnance with his performance.

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Han Solo wasn't the main character in Jedi; Luke was.

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Ditto with cloud. all his power comes from accidents, geneticly experimented on, thrown into the lifestream, guarded from beyond by Aeries. His issues were that he was weak as a child, yet all his misfortunes take care of that for him instead of him actually working for what he has. He lost his family, betrayed by someone he respected, but this is all so common in RPG's. Barrett had the same misfortune, yet he actually cared and stuck it through, working to make the world a better place instead of pretending he was something he wasnt.

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I found that Cloud was generally a likable guy; he stuck his neck out more than once when an injustice was being committed. As for Barret, he wasn't captured by Shinra. He fought against them, but once Cloud got out of the pen, that's what he ended up doing almost immediately; even Barret admits that Cloud is an admirable leader and a key addition to the cause of saving the world.

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Clouds story just feels like a set of coincidances instead of a genuine struggle. Even his major breakthrough was a case of tifa holding his hand and guiding him through. I also felt that cloud should not have been so powerful after accepting his weaknesses, he should should have had to face his follies and idiocy on his own and work it through in time, instead of being superpowerful because of genetic experimentation and lifestream.

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Part of Cloud's strength is his own. He already had immense drive and strength even before he was subjected to the horrors of Shinra; if not for this, he never would have acquired his strength.

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Sure his friends could cheer him on, but he needed to face the consequences of his decisions, overcome his disassociative and cowardly nature on his own but never did. in comparison the resonnance I find in Sakaguchi's direction is that all characters have to confront their demons on their own and accept the consequences. Cyan had to accept that his family still loved him, that he was worthy to protect the happiness of those still alive, and maybe even love another. It took coaching from his family and friends, where cloud required handholding and copouts, and Cyan eventually pulled through, wheras Cloud was practically spoon fed his breaks while he just carried a big sword and grew more and more powerful through the power of plot contrivance rather than skilled direction and writing.

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Well, if you want to get technical, Cloud grew more and more powerful via leveling up. And again, Cyan wasn't tortured and experimented on for four years straight. I know I sound like a broken record continually bringing that up, but its magnitude is hefty enough that it cannot be ignored. For my senior paper, I interviewed veterans of Vietnam and World War II and heard firsthand the terror of war. I've known people who've been tortured; I've known people who habitually torture themselves.

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I was quite happy with terra learning to love and forge emotional attatchments and to protect what was precious to her, almost at the cost of her own life. It was less stereotypical that way. As for her ending up with someone, I would have liked to see some signs of her and Edgar getting closer in the same ways the plot showed Locke and Celes edging together but not getting together just yet. Despite his playboy ways, he really was a good king and would have been good for her as he proved he was capable of being responsible and looking out for the needs of others, and she would have benifitted by that example. Also her half esper nature would garuntee he would end his playboy ways, lest face getting his ass kicked.

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Heh, I'll agree with you there. Edgar was NOT the Force's gift to women, but he was a good king. It'd be funny to watch him suck an Ultima after Terra catches him in bed with Celes.

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And as for the funnyboy

http://figarocastle.homemade-website.../PSX/PSX23.jpg

I much prefer this one, nowhere near amano's original concept art, which Is pretty hard to find right now, but still does an alright job of conveying his insanity.

http://www.geocities.com/esca_junkie/amano.jpg

This being one of the rare amano sketches I could find, not exactly kefka at his best, but still more villainous than
....


THIS!

okay seph, give me pouty, thats right bat those eyes. Can we get makeup in here, his mascera's running.

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How many of those Amano sketches are there? His site doesn't have his FF work at the moment. I have his illustrations of Zidane, Terra, Cloud, Sephiroth, Aeris, and Red XIII.

Hey, isn't that about AC and not FFVI VS FFVII?

I feel this has gone off topic =/

It is used to be Wuxia,CHI verus AC though.

all we need is Squall of SeeD and you'd have every in and out of the games and the movie!

Advent Children was great, nothing amazing, it lacked story but the action was good, it just didn't have the thing that makes you go "OMG HOLY [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] THAT WAS AMAZING AS HELL!"

Ishin why are you hating on this game and movie.
Being that Im an american asshole I love action. Movies dun need a plot to woo me. Kefka doesnt even compare to Kefka in the fact that one dont look like a retarted clown who likes to crossdress occasionally.
Cloud doesnt even look like a girl..

IN SHORT DUN HATE ON A GAME BETTER THAN 6!
NUFF SAID:cool:

This has gone way off topic. I think we're done here.