Denying fate i dont think so

A lot of people believe that the reason ultimecia to achieve time compression was to denying her fate death in Squall`s hand.But i think that is not the truth at all.I think the motivation of Ultimecia is quite clear to become the ruler of everything.In the time we meet Ultimecia before final battle she say blah blah blah... The price for your meddling is
death beyond death. I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining. There, I will REIGN, and you will be my SLAVES for eternity.You see, she mean she want all the creature,all the living and death,all existance to become her slave.SHE IS THE ONE.Alright if Ultimecia realy want to deny her fate why she just don`t` kill Squall at the end of disk 1,please don`t tell me that she want he live to tell her the meaning of SeeD because that ridiculous.But she let Squall live because she doesn`t know anything about her fate.Ultimecia(Edea) at Galbadia Garden say so you`re the legendary SeeD that destined to face me(Edea) is not intended say that you`re the one who will kill me later.The reason Ultimecia say that is quite simple.Ultimecia lives in the future so she already learn many history about sorceresses,sorceress war,etc.And she learn in history sorceress Edea defeated by Squall the leader of SeeD and of course in the future Squall will became the legend.So when she say that she already know that she (Edea)will defeated by Squall at that time.That the reasonn why she say that.I hope you understand what i`m talking about.Fell free to share your thought.

Uh, yes. You're right. I don't think it's ever said that she doesn't want to be the ruler of everything. That's just the way of the baddies. :cool:

a)

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The price for your meddling is
death beyond death.

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i.e. they will be alive after death but will lose something alive on them (Ultimecia will address it).
b)

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I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining.

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To Esthar.
Note that our characters went to Esthar but do not fully acknowledge everything that there is on the city.This is proved by looking at the city from the world map.
From the city there is a road which you can´t pass through.
And a green lift unaccessed by our characters.
c)

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There, I will REIGN,

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The expression "I" don´t necessarily refer to Ulti.
If someone is possessing Ulti the expression I could refer to that person.

d)

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and you will be my SLAVES for eternity.

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The word "Slaves" can be misunderstood to refer to the slaveness of the entire human race.Slaveness in the sense of threatening people to force them to do things in a workable fashion.
But it really just refers to our characters.
In the context of a) the interpretation of the word "slave" is obvious.em
Ultimecia will kill them and relive them.
Killing them "kills" their brain content because the brain stop working and the electronical information is lost.Therefore their memories.
Ulti will relive them again with it´s brain erased.Therefore it will be easier to possess our charascters.Without memories not much will they will have.They will be like babies.
This way there is no will to resist Ulti´s will.
Therefore she relived them but "kill" their wills.

If Ultimecia knew that Edea would be defeated by Squall, why would she then also not know that she herself was supposed to be defeated by Squall? After all, Ultimecia's defeat is far more important historically speaking then Edea's defeat, hence if Edea's defeat is recorded and known, it stands to reason that Ultimecia's defeat would be recorded too, and that Ultimecia would thus know of her own history too. Obviously, it is then quite plausible that she'd want to do something about this (nobody would feel to comfortable at reading that your death is sealed by fate).

Now, for the line "You are the legendary SeeD destined to face me", you suggest that Ultimecia is speaking of Edea, yet why on earth would Ultimecia refer to Edea as "I"? It is obvious through her speech at Galbadia (which could not have been referring to Edea) that when possessing Edea, any reference to 'I' or 'me' etc. is referring to Ultimecia, NOT Edea. It just doesn't make sense for Ultimecia to use "me" when she's talking about Edea. It is far more reasonable that she is in fact speaking of herself (ie. Ultimecia), ie. her own fate.

The reasons she doesnt kill Squall in the Desert Prison bit can be many. First and foremost though, there is no indication that Ultimecia even knows who Squall is. When you meet her in the end of disc 1, she only refers to the party as "SeeD", making no indication that she recognises them as being any special SeeD's. It is not until you face her in disc 2 that Ultimecia gives any recognition to Squall (much to his confusement), so in reality, there is no reason to assume she knew who Squall was when she had him captured in the Desert Prison. Further though, you could explain it even if you assume she DID know, by referring to Ultimecia's obvious arrogance ("I'm not only strong enough to defy fate, I'll even keep the man fated to kill me alive just to show how strong I am!").

Obviously Ultimecia craved power too (ie. compressing and absorbing time and space, making everyone her 'slaves', becoming God etc.), but her recognition of Squall as someone destined to face her indicates an awareness of her own 'fate'. Considering that the peoples awareness of Ultimecia's life through recorded history can perfectly explain why Ultimecia would go all evil in the first place, everything points towards her goal being to stop her fate and becoming God in the process.

To make this even more plausible, let me refer to the Ultimania Guide (From Selphies Diary):

"Latest Diary Entry (Public)

Finally, we arrived at Ultimecia’s castle. Inside, there were a lot of traps
waiting for us! Our futures were hinged in the balance -- could we do this?

...you know, I just thought of something right now. What was Ultimecia
thinking? She was trying to survive in the only way she knew how, I think. Was she trying to reach all the way out to the past to compress time, so that she could try to erase the fate she knew was in store for her...? Thinking about it that way, maybe what I’m writing is one-sided.

Okay, moving on! If any of you want to ask me in person, I’ll always be around! Think of it as a treat from your local, friendly Garden Festival Committee Director!

It goes on, but the important bit is bolded. Anyway, if Square made the effort of hinting at the same thing in the Ultimania, it seems to me pretty likely that this is in fact that Square intended to be the case.

No.Square intended for Selphie to think the reality reduces to this stupid time-loop superficial story.Our characters kill Ulti to prevent her from compressing time which she did to prevent being killed.Duuuuuuuh!
I can understand why Selphie thinks this though.
Because Dr Odine is a GENIUS!

I believe Ultimecia knew about Squall like i said he will become a legend in the future so everybody in the future know about Squall including Ultimecia.I think someone in here ever say this i think its Qurange she said only few people in Squall time know about Ultimecia and believe.I believe Ultimecia history never recorded in Squall`s time because its just will make chaos in the future.So Ultimecia never know about her fate.Sir Bahamut please just spend sometime thinking that Ultimecia doesnt know her fate and you will eventually realised it.

PS:OMG i cant believe Lychon is MALE i always thought that Lychon is FEMALE.Come on if you see her/his writing you will assume that Lychon is FEMALE maybe he is lying(i could be wrong...).

Hmmmm, I did forget about the Ultimania entry--though I still think it's most logical that /most/ of the world didn't know about Ultimecia, it is more and more likely that Ultimecia, even if she didn't know exactly what was supposed to happen, was trying to change the way she'd known or read things had to be. Now, whether it was common knowledge or whether she simply found out at some point...

Well, that's all speculation.

What do tou mean she simple found out at same point do you mean her fate?

Um, please repeat?

I mean at post number 9

Of course Ultimecia knew that Edea will defeated by Squall because she is from future.Ultimecia doesnt know that she will defeated by Squall because the event of her defeat not happen yet. (to Sir Bahamut)

I am looking at these discussions and though most of them make sense I expect some physical evidence to establish to stablish the true ones (or at least the most accurate).

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I believe Ultimecia knew about Squall like i said he will become a legend in the future so everybody in the future know about Squall including Ultimecia.I think someone in here ever say this i think its Qurange she said only few people in Squall time know about Ultimecia and believe.I believe Ultimecia history never recorded in Squall`s time because its just will make chaos in the future.So Ultimecia never know about her fate.

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Thing is, Squall becomes legendary because he kills Ultimecia. Claiming that Ultimecia knows about Squall being legendary but NOT that he is legendary for beating her, even when Ultimecia literally says "you arethe one destined to defeat me" is simply not rational. Ultimecias acknowledgement of Squall when inside Edea can only mean one thing; she knew that he was the one who was supposed to defeat her (according to history). Combined with the Ultimania quote referred to, as well as the fact that a major theme in the game is that of coming to terms with fate (Ellone's journey to change the past, Squall's unwillingess to be a leader etc.) makes it highly likely that Ultimecia's actions stem from the same thing; a desire to change ones fate.

One can argue, like Qurange says, about how many people actually knew this, but I see no reason why it shouldn't be well known. The events that shake the world in FF8 are of such a magnitude that explanations will be demanded, and since many people (primarily SeeD's) are aware of the fact that a sorceress named Ultimecia is behind it all, it seems unreasonable to think that the truth could be covered up indefinitely. Further, not revealing the truth would leave Edea as the natural person to blame, which I doubt Squall, or Cid for that matter, would want.

Now, we know from Ultimecia's speech in Galbadia that she, and other sorceresses of her time were persecuted. Why is that? Well, if people became aware that a sorceress who was yet to be born would kill countless people and nearly destroy the universe as we know it, that'd be a pretty good reason, if you ask me.

Perhaps the exact details alluded most people, but if Ultimecia was able to find out that her history had been 'sealed', I don't see why we should think she was a rare case. And if people knew about her predicted birth, we have a perfect explanation for why she went all evil.
It's just too elegant to be incorrect, if you ask me.

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Sir Bahamut please just spend sometime thinking that Ultimecia doesnt know her fate and you will eventually realised it.

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Sorry, but you haven't given any arguments that haven't already been countered, so I see no reason to think that she didn't know her fate. IMO, considering the oft-quote line at the end of disc 2 and the Ultimania quote, I find it absurd to consider that she DIDN'T know her fate.

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Of course Ultimecia knew that Edea will defeated by Squall because she is from future.Ultimecia doesnt know that she will defeated by Squall because the event of her defeat not happen yet. (to Sir Bahamut)

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You're wrong. The defeat of Ultimecia had already happened! You say that she'd obviously know about Edea's defeat, because that was an event in Ultimecia's past, but the fact is that the defeat of herself happened even earlier than that. Observe this timeline diagram:

----A---->B----------------->C--->

A = Ultimecia dies, Edea takes her powers (as seen in the ending).
B= Edea is defeated by Squall (as seen in disc 2).
C= Ultimecia rises to power.

So I'm afraid you're wrong here.

You`re right I just need somebody to destroy my theory that`s all
In Deling City Ultimecia only say SORCERESS (HERSELF) NOT SORCERESSES

But I still believe that future generation doesnt know about Ultimecia.Only few people knew about it in the future, but they keep it as secret.

I think the reason why she compress time is not to deny her fate.
She must have another reason.

"Latest Diary Entry (Public)

Finally, we arrived at Ultimecia’s castle. Inside, there were a lot of traps
waiting for us! Our futures were hinged in the balance -- could we do this?

...you know, I just thought of something right now. What was Ultimecia
thinking? She was trying to survive in the only way she knew how, I think. Was she trying to reach all the way out to the past to compress time, so that she could try to erase the fate she knew was in store for her...? Thinking about it that way, maybe what I’m writing is one-sided.

Okay, moving on! If any of you want to ask me in person, I’ll always be around! Think of it as a treat from your local, friendly Garden Festival Committee Director!

Doesnt sound like Selphie to me.

Riiiight... It IS her, because the FF8 Ultimania SAYS it's her, and it, By the by, is official.

Believe in what you believe then,period.

Let's see.... Officially supported material made and released in house, vs someone online saying it doesn't sound like the character.

Which one has more weight?

Oh, that's right, Officially supported materials!

I'm gonna say this once more time hope you get it.

BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE THEN,PERIOD.

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Originally Posted by Viator

I'm gonna say this once more time hope you get it.

BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE THEN,PERIOD.

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Sure pal. You can choose what you wanna believe and so do we. I do hope you made this thread just to share your belief with us.

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Originally Posted by Christmas

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Originally Posted by Viator

I'm gonna say this once more time hope you get it.

BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE THEN,PERIOD.

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Sure pal. You can choose what you wanna believe and so do we. I do hope you made this thread just to share your belief with us.

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Whatever.

If Ultimecia wants to deny her fate,why she doesnt just kill herself.Maybe it sounds stupid to suicide,but it even more stupid for Ultimecia to repeat the same mistake : Start TC and then after that death at Squall's hand.

It makes sense that the reason why she compress time is to deny her fate, BUT WHAT IF THAT IS NOT THE REASON.

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BUT WHAT IF THAT IS NOT THE REASON.

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What if it is? What's your point?

Oh, and the suicide thing makes no sense; it was denying her fate of DYING which was her goal, so suicide wouldn't make much sense unless she got really crazy. And the fact that her actions are what led to the prophecy being fulfilled is the great irony; she walked right into fate thinking she was stopping it.

What I mean is why she did the same mistake again : Start TC and then after that death at Squall's hand.
She knew that she will die at Squall's hand after she starts TC,then why she still did the same thing,start TC blah,blah...

It makes sense that the reason why she compress time is to deny her fate, BUT WHAT IF THAT IS NOT THE REASON.

I want you to think why she wants to compress time beside to deny her fate.Maybe you can find THE REASON.

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Originally Posted by Viator

It makes sense that the reason why she compress time is to deny her fate, BUT WHAT IF THAT IS NOT THE REASON.

I want you to think why she wants to compress time beside to deny her fate.Maybe you can find THE REASON.

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The point here is that people believe THAT IS THE REASON or maybe for me here is that I just don't buy your theory which I stated in my previous post.

I also stated before that you are just sharing instead of making or to the extent of forcing us to believe in your belief/theory.

We had our belief or so do you. Don't ever try crossing the line pal.

Viator, as you've done it on several occasions in this thread: Please don't double post. If you have anything more you wish to add, use the edit/delete button.

And let's not get confrontational, guys. :)

Cristmas dont call me PAL again that's annoying me.

Ultimecia wanted to achieve Time Compression so she could absorb the powers of all Sorceresses across existence, as you can read in her scan data.

Or maybe it's because she's the villain, and she wants to destroy existence, and that's the end of that. It doesn't need to be any more complicated then necessary.

What if the complicated thing is the answer

I'm sure that Square intended for people to make over-complicated theories about simple things, especially when they don't even need to be thought about more than necessary! That doesn't mean you can't make up more things about it, go on ahead. (They are entertaining most of the time.)

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

Ultimecia wanted to achieve Time Compression so she could absorb the powers of all Sorceresses across existence, as you can read in her scan data.

Or maybe it's because she's the villain, and she wants to destroy existence, and that's the end of that. It doesn't need to be any more complicated then necessary.

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Would it not make more sense if someone on the future wanna to take over his/her own world which is more advanced than the one on the past or even take over an era further than his/her?

At least it makes more sense than a person trying to make a crazy time soap denying existence to rule it all.
This last one sounds too Nirvana like.

This is were my theories start to make more sense than yours.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Would it not make more sense if someone on the future wanna to take over his/her own world which is more advanced than the one on the past or even take over an era further than his/her?

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I have trouble understanding this statement. Someone from the future want to take over her/his own world IN THE FUTURE which is more advanced than the one on the past?

At any rate, that's what it says when you scan her. And since Doc Odine seems to dismiss trying to investigate it further, there really isn't that much else in the game that talks about it. (Unless there's something in the Dictionary/information/tutorial/thing.) Or if someone's translated the Ultimania guide for this game too.

It doesn't require that much thought. :cat:

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Originally Posted by Christmas

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Would it not make more sense if someone on the future wanna to take over his/her own world which is more advanced than the one on the past or even take over an era further than his/her?

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I have trouble understanding this statement. Someone from the future want to take over her/his own world IN THE FUTURE which is more advanced than the one on the past?

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I mean,trying to take over the world on his/her present era.
That person will not try to take over it on the past because it is more boring than on the present.

It will make even more sense if that person goes to the future and try to take over the world.

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At any rate, that's what it says when you scan her. And since Doc Odine seems to dismiss trying to investigate it further, there really isn't that much else in the game that talks about it. (Unless there's something in the Dictionary/information/tutorial/thing.) Or if someone's translated the Ultimania guide for this game too.

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Someone HAS translated it, and it clearly alludes to a second motive beyond the power motive you mention. Selphie writes (in the Ultimania):
"What was Ultimecia thinking? She was trying to survive in the only way she knew how, I think. Was she trying to reach all the way out to the past to compress time, so that she could try to erase the fate she knew was in store for her...?"

Clearly from this, and from what we can infer from the game, denying her fate was a big part of her 'mission'.

I love FFVIII, but Ultimecia is just a sorceress who wants to rule all time and space. I think that's just about the jist of it.

Ultimecia is possessed.So simple.
She is not the one trying to take over the world.

Isn't Edea the one possessed by Ultimecia...or am I totally off the mark here?

No, you're quite right. It's only Future Esthar who believes Ultimecia was possessed. Don't ask why.

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Originally Posted by Viator

It makes sense that the reason why she compress time is to deny her fate.

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It more make sense if the reason Ultimecia compress time is to fulfill her Fate death at Squall' hand.

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I love FFVIII, but Ultimecia is just a sorceress who wants to rule all time and space. I think that's just about the jist of it.

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I think Ultimecia is just a sorceress trying to find the TRUTH,in wrong way.

You people should go to the thread called "Revelation of the Truth" to find the Truth,I mean the answers.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

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At any rate, that's what it says when you scan her. And since Doc Odine seems to dismiss trying to investigate it further, there really isn't that much else in the game that talks about it. (Unless there's something in the Dictionary/information/tutorial/thing.) Or if someone's translated the Ultimania guide for this game too.

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Someone HAS translated it, and it clearly alludes to a second motive beyond the power motive you mention. Selphie writes (in the Ultimania):
"What was Ultimecia thinking? She was trying to survive in the only way she knew how, I think. Was she trying to reach all the way out to the past to compress time, so that she could try to erase the fate she knew was in store for her...?"

Clearly from this, and from what we can infer from the game, denying her fate was a big part of her 'mission'.

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I thought as much. Well, that's good then. :cat:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

No, you're quite right. It's only Future Esthar who believes Ultimecia was possessed. Don't ask why.

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Ultimecia doesn´t possess anyone.
It can´t be prooved she does and there is no machine on her time.

However I saw the machine somewhere else.
How do I know it´s the machine?

1-I saw the big version(less advanced) version of the machine and I know it´s a wave transmiting machine.
2-The telepathic properties of the advanced version will become evident when you find it.

You do know that FFVIII is a game, right? Stop overanalyzing everything! It doesn't change a damn thing. I'm a FFIX fanboy, but I do know where to draw a line, I suggest you do the same. :)

I will answer the question from Sir B a year ago.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Explain why we only see effects from TC at the point of Adels defeat and some time into the battle with Ultimecia. (After all, since TC would have certainly reached the events we play in the game prior to Adels defeat, we have to explain why we don't see any influence in those events).

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The most important of TC is Time Decompression NOT achievement of TC.
Actually the effect of TC happen all of the time after TC start.
The reason we only see at Adels defeat and some time into the battle with Ultimecia because we ONLY play the game.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Take into account the fact that you travel through TC and LEAVE TC before ending up in Ultimecias world, before seemingly entering TC again in Ultimecias battle. Prerably, it should explain why Odine makes it sound like you couldn't actually end up anywhere BUT Ultimecias time, when the error margin are VERY slim(considering how close Ultimecia comes to full time compression).

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Actually Squall and Co never leave TC, when they arrived at Ultimecia's Castle they still inside TC.
They can ONLY leave TC when Time Decompression.
When TC start there's no more past,present or future again.
There's only the "NOW" time.
So when they arrived at Ultimecia's Castle they're not in past,present or future.They only in the "NOW" time.
Yeah I know we can see they arrived in future but like I said When TC start there's no more past'present or future.There is only the "NOW" time

PS:Special thanks to Lychon for the "NOW" time.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Explain why Squall and Co were not affected by TC(ie. why weren't their own individual lines of time also compressed?)

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.

Maybe there's connection with PUPu.
Remember PuPu gives us something(PuPu card)
PuPu card can be refined into Aegis Amulet.
Aegis Amulet can be used as Eva-J or Speed Up
Maybe because of Aegist Amulet Squall and Co can survive at TC
Maybe this is the answer,maybe not,who knows...

Actually, they were unaffected because Time Compression hadn't been completed yet, and because they kept focused on one another, and where they needed to be, as Laguna suggested. They had an edge, of course, because they prepared for it, but this technique seemed to work for a lot of people. The chocobo boy, even in Time Compression, was just where he wanted to be; the CC group, led by Xu, were on the Ragnarok (don't get me started) and then Squall and company went through to find Ultimecia's castle.

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Actually, they were unaffected because Time Compression hadn't been completed yet, and because they kept focused on one another, and where they needed to be, as Laguna suggested. They had an edge, of course, because they prepared for it, but this technique seemed to work for a lot of people. The chocobo boy, even in Time Compression, was just where he wanted to be; the CC group, led by Xu, were on the Ragnarok (don't get me started) and then Squall and company went through to find Ultimecia's castle.

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That is very simple answer Qurange.I am sure there's more than that.

The chocoboy boy,the CC group ONLY GAMEPLAY ASPECT.
They had nothing to do with the storyline.

So, you're allowed to point out 'flaws' when they're convenient for you, and ignore parts of the game at the same times? They're gameplay aspects, yes, but the story is also required to explain them, just like the rest of gameplay. Explaining them this way fits perfectly with canon; Laguna said that the important thing was to focus on one another; there's nothing that says other people couldn't have anchored themselves the same way.

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Originally Posted by Viator

The chocoboy boy,the CC group ONLY GAMEPLAY ASPECT.
They had nothing to do with the storyline.

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No No dear. Both Xu and Quistis are part of the group and they DO have something to do with the storyline.

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Maybe there's connection with PUPu.
Remember PuPu gives us something(PuPu card)
PuPu card can be refined into Aegis Amulet.
Aegis Amulet can be used as Eva-J or Speed Up
Maybe because of Aegist Amulet Squall and Co can survive at TC
Maybe this is the answer,maybe not,who knows...

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I KNOW.

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So, you're allowed to point out 'flaws' when they're convenient for you, and ignore parts of the game at the same times? They're gameplay aspects, yes, but the story is also required to explain them, just like the rest of gameplay. Explaining them this way fits perfectly with canon; Laguna said that the important thing was to focus on one another; there's nothing that says other people couldn't have anchored themselves the same way.

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I never ignore the truth part of the game.
Like I said You have to seperate truth and lie in ff8 because there's flaws.So I ignore the lie part and focus on the truth part.

Square make CC group at that time so we can finish the card quest.

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No No dear. Both Xu and Quistis are part of the group and they DO have something to do with the storyline.

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Yeah only in the second and third disk.

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I KNOW.

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I knew you will happy to hear it

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Originally Posted by Viator

Yeah only in the second and third disk.

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It was Quistis the leader of the CC Group that brought Squall to the Cavern of fire or whatever you call it. It was she that lead Squall and all us to start the whole FF VIII story. See how important the CC Group already is in the first disc.

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I knew you will happy to hear it

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INDEED.

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It was Quistis the leader of the CC Group that brought Squall to the Cavern of fire or whatever you call it. It was she that lead Squall and all us to start the whole FF VIII story. See how important the CC Group already is in the first disc.

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We cant play with CC group at first disk.So their card game story begin when in second and third disk.

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Originally Posted by Viator

We cant play with CC group at first disk.So their card game story begin when in second and third disk.

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We are talking about the CC group and not the Card Game story and Quistis happens to be the leader of it.

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We are talking about the CC group and not the Card Game story and Quistis happens to be the leader of it.

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If we are talking about CC Group that means we also talking about card game (story).

Does that mean if we are talking about your theory we are also talking about the "TRUTH"?

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Does that mean if we are talking about your theory we are also talking about the "TRUTH"?

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Whatever.

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Originally Posted by Qurange

Actually, they were unaffected because Time Compression hadn't been completed yet, and because they kept focused on one another, and where they needed to be

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They already affected by TC when they get inside TC.
But they can survive inside TC,why?
First, like you said they kept focused on one another.
Second, maybe because of Aegis Amulet.