Once again, The FF7 Romance Debate.

You'll note I didn't call it the "Love Triangle" debate. That's because this isn't going to be your typical Aerith Vs Tifa debate for two reasons. Firstly, I think Aerith had as much chance as Yuffie, and secondly and more importantly, we're starting from square one- meaning all the girls, Including Yuffie and possibly others, are treated as having equal starting validity, IE: none. We will also be treating this like an actual debate.

What that means is rather simple. The love 'debate' started with 'he loves so and so' 'Nu uh! He loves so and so!', without any evidence to speak of, and it was largely an ad populum shouting match. Instead, we will begin from the very basics, and look for evidence to support our positions. And I do mean evidence. Not color theory, vague symbolism, or any such nonsense.

By the by, any claim made WILL be expected to be backed up by relevant evidence, analyzed in context.

Evidence can be gleamed from any part of the compilation- and heck, to make it interesting, we can allow evidence from other games, though appropriately weighted for not being part of FF7. Keep note that variable text can be used as evidence under two conditions- 1. Either it does not include Cloud's variable text, or 2. the variable text reveals basically the same thing.

Me? I'll be joining in the debate later, but first I'd like to see the arguments the shippers come up with to support their positions.

So run along and construct those arguments. Go go.

Well, I believe that Aerith was the one whom Cloud had (or should have) really fallen in love with. I say should have because of the fact that depending on how one plays the game, they can effect the affection values for each character. I admit that I have not had the chance to take even Tifa on a date in the game (would have but currently my copy of VII is lent out to someone) and therefore only have the game script to give me knowledge of the other dates.

While it is entirely possible to also date Yuffie and even Barret (never understood that) I do not believe that they are true candidates for the following reason. Cloud never really shows any interest in Yuffie, even when you take her out that she and Cloud don't really seem to have a connection (despite the fact that she's the only one that you can kiss) as she acts hyper like her normal self and I just can't see Cloud with that. He's much to calm for her.

Then the obvious reason that I Cloud just wouldn't be with Barret because he's not gay. Even on the "date" they don't really act at all like it's a date. More just like two friends that just weren't used to being able to talk alone.

So, now it's pretty much down to just Tifa and Aerith. So, now I'm going to examine the reasons why those two may or may not be good for Cloud.

Aerith is good for Cloud for several reasons. She is kind-hearted, self-sacrificing, and very strong-minded. She had a connection with Cloud on a very deep level, one that even Tifa could never seem to find. When Aerith and Cloud went on a date, she said, "I want to meet the real you." Now, this is pretty much the only way that this line could have been translated, but in Japanese this phrase has a much deeper meaning to it. To meet someone is to know their soul in a very deep and connecting way. This is pretty clear proof that at least Aerith had feelings for Cloud, even if he didn't return them (which I contend that he did).

Now, there are several things that would point to Aerith and Cloud not being together as well, which (for the sake of remaining unbiased) I will discuss as well. One of these is the so-called "innocence" of Aerith. This is so not true. Aerith is far from innocent, everything from her comments about Tifa and Cloud to trying to swindle some guys out of a good deal of money would prove this. Another point is that Aerith has not known Cloud nearly as long as Tifa has.

Now, there are also many reasons why Tifa and Cloud would be good together. They have known each other since childhood and Cloud pretty much adored Tifa then. Also, Tifa has a much more self-sacrificing trait than Aerith. She definitely cares for Cloud, because she always seems to be hurt when Aerith makes the careless comments about Tifa and Cloud that I spoke of earlier.

There are also reasons why Tifa and Cloud shouldn't be together. Like I said earlier, Cloud almost glamorized Tifa, while she seemed to ignore him (we found this out in Cloud's memory in the lifestream) and this may have turned her off for a while. They weren't nearly the childhood friends they thought they were in the beginning. Tifa obviously didn't know Cloud well enough to know if she should tell him the truth about the Nibelheim incident, and ended up not telling him, which in the end nearly destroyed him.

Overall, the only two true contenders for Cloud's love are Tifa and Aerith, and with the evidence it becomes more a matter of interpretation and gameplay that decides who Cloud gives his heart to. I for one prefer Aerith over Tifa just because of my preferences and such, and therefore I believe that it should be Cloud and Aerith, though I believe that those who think it's Cloud and Tifa are just as justified as I am in their beliefs.

Huh. And I thought the thread was going to be dead in the water.

An interesting read. Kind of off topic, since the topic was who Cloud is in love with, now who is best for him, but schmeh. There are a couple of things I'd like to respond to though.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Aerith is good for Cloud for several reasons. She is kind-hearted, self-sacrificing, and very strong-minded.

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Not that this is untrue, but the way it is presented, it seems to present itself as polarized to Tifa, who shares those qualities. Not saying that it's your intention, but eh.

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She had a connection with Cloud on a very deep level, one that even Tifa could never seem to find.

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Now this is blatantly untrue, and Aerith herself admits it. In the lifestream, where one's heart is on their sleeve to Aerith, she cannot connect to Cloud, and realizes on Tifa can.

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When Aerith and Cloud went on a date, she said, "I want to meet the real you." Now, this is pretty much the only way that this line could have been translated, but in Japanese this phrase has a much deeper meaning to it. To meet someone is to know their soul in a very deep and connecting way. This is pretty clear proof that at least Aerith had feelings for Cloud, even if he didn't return them (which I contend that he did).

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Uh... not necessarily. I speak a fair amount of the language, and you can know someone without it being a soul connection.

By the By, the entire point of this thread, as mentioned, it to empirically support who Cloud had feelings for, so simply stating that you think he did won't cut it.

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Tifa obviously didn't know Cloud well enough to know if she should tell him the truth about the Nibelheim incident, and ended up not telling him, which in the end nearly destroyed him.

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Actually, she wasn't sure who was correct about Nibleheim, since though to her knowledge he was never there, he knew numerous things he could have only known were he there, which made her hesistant to speak out. She was also worried that he would vanish again/ break down if she confronted him, and she was worried about that happening.

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Overall, the only two true contenders for Cloud's love are Tifa and Aerith, and with the evidence it becomes more a matter of interpretation and gameplay that decides who Cloud gives his heart to. I for one prefer Aerith over Tifa just because of my preferences and such, and therefore I believe that it should be Cloud and Aerith, though I believe that those who think it's Cloud and Tifa are just as justified as I am in their beliefs.

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Well, with Reunion files, Case of Tifa, and Maiden who travels the planet, I think we're a lot more justified, evidence wise.

*No, I'm not writing an essay on the subject*

Well, it's my personal opinion that Cloud and Aerith would be a neat couple. Doesn't mean I think they'll get together, because, well, they don't and can't, really.* With all the evidence from the novellas, the way they act in the game, and apparently the creators have even stated that Cloud and Tifa get together, I'm led to believe that they will, in fact, get together at some point in the game's timeline (if they aren't in a relationship in Advent Children already). As if it weren't obvious enough in the game, from their 'childhood friendship', the scene at the end of Disc 2 (even though they could very well be playing Checkers), and well, it's just plain obvious.

But Yuffie and Cloud would make a cute (albeit strange..) couple.

Why, you're right Ryushikaze, I did get a bit off topic. Didn't even realize it. I apologize. To stay on topic, I will only say this. In the game, one is given the choice as to who they care for more, and this can most certainly be seen as love. As for outside of the game, there are a few points on each side, but AC didn' really answer that question. However, I still say that Cloud loves Aerith.

First off, in AC, Cloud is still lamenting over Aerith's death. Still blames himself, and still feels unforgiven. He feels the same way about Zack, but his connection with Aerith's death seems much more personal. In the case of Zack, there wasn't much he could do, but with Aerith, he felt that if he hadn't been controlled by Sephiroth at that time that he could have stopped it.

Also, he is living in Aerith's church, and is constantly talking about being forgiven. It is clear that Aerith's death still haunts him in a much deeper way than it haunted anyone else. Perhaps more than he should be. Though Cloud was up there on the alter being controlled by Sephiroth, it was as much his fault as anyone's elses. It wouldn't have mattered if Tifa was up there. Sephiroth would still have come down and killed her. There are a number of things blinding Cloud from this truth, but I believe that love is one of them.

Love can make people feel things that they shouldn't. It is not dissimiliar to when a child feels responsible for the divorce of his parents, or when a woman may think that she drove her partner to cheat on her. Neither of these are true, but love blinds them from that. I believe the same thing happened to Cloud, and this is part of the reason why he blames himself for Aerith's death so terribly.

However, this is not enough to make a true thesis, so I will present more evidence. In AC, Tifa and Cloud had been living with each other until quite recently before he moved to Aerith's church. This means that they had been living together for almost two years. Two years! I mean, I know that Cloud doesn't like to open up about his feelings, but don't you think that he would have made a move on her by then? It is quite obvious in the movie that they are not "together" in the sense of a boy/girlfriend relationship, so I don't really understand how their love (because she obviously loves him) could remain unspoken for so long.

Still not nearly enough, but it's a start. It's been a while since I've watched AC, so I'll go and watch it and then come back here and post some more evidence. In the meantime, someone post some rebuttals to my points. I do always love a good debate.

Ah... here it is. Lost it for awhile in the new posts.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Why, you're right Ryushikaze, I did get a bit off topic. Didn't even realize it. I apologize. To stay on topic, I will only say this. In the game, one is given the choice as to who they care for more, and this can most certainly be seen as love.

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Uh, no? In the game, you- as a player- can do numerous things, both direct and ancillary, to determine which girl likes Cloud better. This process really has nothing to do with Cloud.

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As for outside of the game, there are a few points on each side, but AC didn' really answer that question. However, I still say that Cloud loves Aerith.

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Actually, one can use in game things as evidence, provided it's not variable, or the variables wind up more or the same.
Of course, saying is all and good, but remember, I am wanting points to be supported by evidence.

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First off, in AC, Cloud is still lamenting over Aerith's death. Still blames himself, and still feels unforgiven. He feels the same way about Zack, but his connection with Aerith's death seems much more personal.

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Actually, given that he vists Zack's grave, and keeps thinking about him, wheras it takes Aerith actually using her power to contact him, it would seem Zack's death is the more personal.

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In the case of Zack, there wasn't much he could do, but with Aerith, he felt that if he hadn't been controlled by Sephiroth at that time that he could have stopped it.

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Uh, evidence?

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Also, he is living in Aerith's church, and is constantly talking about being forgiven. It is clear that Aerith's death still haunts him in a much deeper way than it haunted anyone else. Perhaps more than he should be.

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This was not so until his geostigma began afflicting him. When he and Tifa visited Aerith's grave after FF7, he was not haunted by it, and he was actually quite happy for awhile, until a period where he began becoming much more distant, a distance which was started by his contraction of Geostigma.

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Though Cloud was up there on the alter being controlled by Sephiroth, it was as much his fault as anyone's elses. It wouldn't have mattered if Tifa was up there. Sephiroth would still have come down and killed her. There are a number of things blinding Cloud from this truth, but I believe that love is one of them.

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Had anyone else been up on that platform, it is entirely likely, and in fact most probable, that they would feel a similar guilt. It is the guilt of a survivor who could not help save the fallen. It is an irrational guilt, commonly called survivor's guilt, and to be frank, Cloud has it in spades. Zack, Aerith, his entire hometown. In fact, such survivor's guilt explains Cloud's bizarre thoughts that he cannot actually save anyone, and his reticence to go out to try and save others, in the case that he fails and has do deal with similar guilt again. Cloud wants to be forgiven, yes. He thinks he has a lot of failures for which he needs to be forgiven. Love does not necessarily follow.

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Love can make people feel things that they shouldn't. It is not dissimiliar to when a child feels responsible for the divorce of his parents, or when a woman may think that she drove her partner to cheat on her. Neither of these are true, but love blinds them from that. I believe the same thing happened to Cloud, and this is part of the reason why he blames himself for Aerith's death so terribly.

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Cloud perceives the Geostigma as a punishment for his failures. This, along with survivor's guilt, is more than sufficient to explain his behaviour, without invoking a love for Aerith which really has no evidence in its favor.

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However, this is not enough to make a true thesis, so I will present more evidence. In AC, Tifa and Cloud had been living with each other until quite recently before he moved to Aerith's church. This means that they had been living together for almost two years. Two years! I mean, I know that Cloud doesn't like to open up about his feelings, but don't you think that he would have made a move on her by then? It is quite obvious in the movie that they are not "together" in the sense of a boy/girlfriend relationship, so I don't really understand how their love (because she obviously loves him) could remain unspoken for so long.

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Wait, who said that it remained unspoken? Nomura said of Tifa that she was a lover, a Koibito, and Nojima said that the very first thing made concrete about the movie was that Cloud and Tifa would be together. Heck, CoT has a scene which shows that if Cloud and Tifa do not share a room, then they are at least so used to being in each other's rooms at night while the other is asleep that Cloud is completely and utterly unphased by her presence next to him as he awakes.

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Still not nearly enough, but it's a start. It's been a while since I've watched AC, so I'll go and watch it and then come back here and post some more evidence. In the meantime, someone post some rebuttals to my points. I do always love a good debate.

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Oh yes. If we can get some more people involved, that would be kickin. And I'll try and get my original argument in shortly, but I'm attempting to be comprehensive, starting with Cloud's life in Nibleheim and working from there.

right...the love triangle is non existent cuz its a love square...tifa-cloud_zack_aeris......there is an inverted triangle or something there... i dunno....read this

http://www.angelfire.com/yt2/zforce6455/lit/FF7.html

Well I am no authority on the subject however; with Cloud's given personality, Yuffie would be entirely too childish for him.

Yuffie is like Selphie in FF8, "Oooo I like trains." Selphie was too childish for Squall. Same scenario different people within FF7.

As for Tifa and Cloud, Tifa is the childhood friend that has always loved him but he never loved her more than a friend.
-He was trapped to protect her because his childhood vow to always be there. He never meant it to be a romantic; but that's what she took it as.

His actions in Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children demonstrated his friendship, NOT love.
-He sleeps in an orphanage, not with Tifa for one.
-In the scene in which she says the worst line in history (Dilly Dally Shilly Shally), she is awfully critical of him; the type of critical a best friend would be, not a lover.
-In addition if Square-Enix wanted to throw them together, they would have added a kiss in Advent Children SOMEWHERE.

This leaves Aeris; Elegant, beautiful, intelligent, & mysterious. He acted completely depressed when Aeris died; a loss of love reaction he had.

He mentioned her being full of life and him never being able to see that again.
Then he carried on this weight, the responsiblilty of her dying (even though he could have done nothing more) throughout Advent Children; two years later and he was still carrying the weight. It takes just as long to come to terms with being widowed, in real life.

Summary: He had nothing to do with Yuffie (who would think that)
Tifa and him were childhood friends and best friends when
they grew up.
Cloud Loved Aeris

And I suppose this is an example of what not to do.

To begin with, you cannot use process of elimination to 'prove' aerith, without using any evidence to support Cloud's romantic interest for her.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Masamune

Well I am no authority on the subject however; with Cloud's given personality, Yuffie would be entirely too childish for him.

Yuffie is like Selphie in FF8, "Oooo I like trains." Selphie was too childish for Squall. Same scenario different people within FF7.

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Squall is not Cloud. Selphie is not Yuffie. This is a completely irrelevant point, and honestly, it couldn't be used anyways. FF8's characters are not FF7's characters and their personalities are different, so the preferences of Squall cannot be used as evidence of Cloud's preferences, especially since the two are not all that alike at all.

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As for Tifa and Cloud, Tifa is the childhood friend that has always loved him but he never loved her more than a friend.

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Yet his dearest memories are of her, he changed his entire lifestyle for her, he told her immediately after FF7 that he wanted to start a new life , specifying that it would be with her...

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-He was trapped to protect her because his childhood vow to always be there. He never meant it to be a romantic; but that's what she took it as.

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You need evidence to support this position. Especially since he was trying to protect her long before this vow was made.

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His actions in Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children demonstrated his friendship, NOT love.

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His actions in FF7AC demonstrated that he was racked with survivor's guilt, a fatal wasting disease, and the psychological block that people he was incapable of saving people.

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-He sleeps in an orphanage, not with Tifa for one.

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So you did not watch FF7AC. He sleeps in the sector 5 church, where he has withdrawn in quarentine for his Geostigma and in an attempt to find penance so the Geostigma would be lifted, seeing as he thought it was a punishment for his failures.
This is also change, since he did live with Tifa for most of the two year gap.

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-In the scene in which she says the worst line in history (Dilly Dally Shilly Shally), she is awfully critical of him; the type of critical a best friend would be, not a lover.

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Yes, because lovers cannot ever be critical of each other. Ever ::rolls eyes::

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-In addition if Square-Enix wanted to throw them together, they would have added a kiss in Advent Children SOMEWHERE.

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Idunno, I thought that look was a promise of a little 'somethin' somethin'' happening later. I also have the word of Nomura and Nojima stating Tifa's a Koibito- a lover- and that she and Cloud are Together.

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This leaves Aeris; Elegant, beautiful, intelligent, & mysterious. He acted completely depressed when Aeris died; a loss of love reaction he had.

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Cloud acted to her death like he acted to the death of his mother. And I do mean exactly alike.
BTW, I won't argue beautiful, but she wasn't really elegant, numerous party members outstripped her by leaps and bounds in intellect, and seriously man, how the hell is she mysterious?

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He mentioned her being full of life and him never being able to see that again.

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He also says "we have to let go of her memory" before assault on North crater. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't affected by her death, but the entire party was.

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Then he carried on this weight, the responsiblilty of her dying (even though he could have done nothing more) throughout Advent Children; two years later and he was still carrying the weight. It takes just as long to come to terms with being widowed, in real life.

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Except he wasn't carrying the weight at all until the Geostigma started afflicting him. He was getting along with Tifa incredibly well in the two years before he withdrew because of his disease]

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Summary: He had nothing to do with Yuffie (who would think that)
Tifa and him were childhood friends and best friends when
they grew up.
Cloud Loved Aeris

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You cannot prove romance by process of elimination, especially by a process as backassward as the one you used. You also did not actually support your side with any evidence to show that Cloud's feelings for Aerith were anything special compared to his feelings for say, his mom, or zack, or the rest of the party's feelings for her.

Addendum: And sephirothishere, that link is broken.

http://www.angelfire.com/yt2/zforce6455/lit/ff7.html

here ya go...must o'done something wrong first time sorry.........

Oh. THAT. I would take everything he says with a grain of Salt.

I'm not sure where he gets his info, but a lot of it is just plain wrong. For example, he says Square translated FF7 themselves. They didn't. Sony did.

I've read that "True Meaning of FFVII" thing before. It is not nearly as "insightful" as the author seems to think it is. First off. He is blatantly wrong. Jenova is not the main villain, Sephiroth is. Also his thing about Cloud being cured of his Jenova cells is wrong. We know this because of his Geostigma in AC. I can agree that in the end Aerith played her part and saved the world, but this certainly doesn't make her the main hero of the story. If it weren't for the work of Cloud and party, she would never have been able to do what she did in the first place. Then he gets into that whole numbers thing and that's when I really begin to discount this guys credibility. Overall, that article is untrue and pretty much irrelevant to this discussion.

Now, Ryushikaze, I must say that you refuted my points pretty well. Plus I misunderstood something that you said about AC. When you brought up the point about Tifa and Cloud being lovers in another thread, I thought you just meant that it was supposed to be quite obvious that Tifa loved Cloud. Now I see that you mean that their love had been spoken, and they were indeed in a relationship. If this is true, then I digress. In AC, Cloud and Tifa were together. However, I have now gathered some evidence from the game.

Okay, I was playing FFVII yesterday (because I finally got my copy of it back. YAY!) and there was one line in particular that I heard that I thought would be just perfect in this arguement. When you visit Cosmo Canyon for the first time, at one point, all of the party is sitting around the Cosmo Candle being silent. You then proceed to talk to all of the characters. When you talk to Aerith, she says something about being alone, and then Cloud says this line: "I'm... we're here for you, aren't we?"

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like he was about to say, "I'm here for you." This can be construed as him just being nice to her, but his quick change to "We're" is what makes me think that he's trying to mask some feelings. I don't know. Maybe I'm looking too deep, but that sounds pretty sentimental coming from Cloud. And his quick cover up definitely makes it seem like there is more there than meets the eye.

I'll post again when I have more, but for now that's all I got. Can't wait to see your thesis Ryushikaze. Should be good, knowing you.

Let's get one thing cleared up (only ONE since I'm not much of a debater).
Cloud may or may not haved loved Aeris. Square is pretty much refusing to tell us who he DOES love for fear of upset fans not buying their games.
However, him grieving over Aeris' death was not necessarily love. I mean, if a close friend of yours died, would you just shrug and go, "Oh well, I can always make a new one", or would you be overcome with grief and guilt?
Besides, I'm pretty sure it would have been worse if Tifa died. He's known her for longer and it would have been worse for him.

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Originally Posted by ;

"So you did not watch FF7AC. He sleeps in the sector 5 church, where he has withdrawn in quarentine for his Geostigma and in an attempt to find penance so the Geostigma would be lifted, seeing as he thought it was a punishment for his failures.
This is also change, since he did live with Tifa for most of the two year gap."

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Actually I have seen it about 5-7 times dubbed. Everytime I see it shows Rude saying that he lives with the children. I know it's a church but if there were children involved taken; he asks where are the children, that would indicate an orphanage now wouldn't it?

I am too busy to actually quote every little little point... but I can use process of elimination; Square-Enix would never have a Final Fantasy w/o a lovestory; by simply using process of elimination we can see what Square wanted us to believe.

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Originally Posted by ;

Squall is not Cloud. Selphie is not Yuffie. This is a completely irrelevant point, and honestly, it couldn't be used anyways. FF8's characters are not FF7's characters and their personalities are different, so the preferences of Squall cannot be used as evidence of Cloud's preferences, especially since the two are not all that alike at all.

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Actually if you watch closely, Selphie and Yuffie have similar mannerisms and are the same type of characters, free spirited and childish. Square-Enix has a forumla of characters from what I noticed, there is always a renegade, a Childish Character, and a badass someone has to defeat. FF characters can be compared, it just depends on qhich ones are being compared. Of course you can't compare Squall and Cloud, they have two totally different personalities, but why not Selphie and Yuffie, or Tifa and Celes? Personality-wise such characters are similar.

IN all seriousness, your case is just as hypothetical as mine; you act as if yours is written fact. There are multiple explanations for one incident. How do you know that Geostigma only affected him for a short amount of time, its not like the movie was very descriptive, he could have had it anywhere from a few months after to 2 years later. The movie failed to describe or extend much of the story hence why you and I assume so much.

Aeris was mysterious in the sense of her powers, just as Terra was in FF6 (the esper).

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Originally Posted by Shadow Masamune

Actually I have seen it about 5-7 times dubbed. Everytime I see it shows Rude saying that he lives with the children. I know it's a church but if there were children involved taken; he asks where are the children, that would indicate an orphanage now wouldn't it?

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Hint- He was referring to Denzel and Marlene.

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Originally Posted by

I am too busy to actually quote every little little point... but I can use process of elimination; Square-Enix would never have a Final Fantasy w/o a lovestory; by simply using process of elimination we can see what Square wanted us to believe.

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FF1-2-3. And even then if we assume you can use process of elimination, your process is still wanting.
Addendum: 5, too.

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Originally Posted by

Actually if you watch closely, Selphie and Yuffie have similar mannerisms and are the same type of characters, free spirited and childish. Square-Enix has a forumla of characters from what I noticed, there is always a renegade, a Childish Character, and a badass someone has to defeat. FF characters can be compared, it just depends on qhich ones are being compared. Of course you can't compare Squall and Cloud, they have two totally different personalities, but why not Selphie and Yuffie, or Tifa and Celes? Personality-wise such characters are similar.

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Yuffie and Selphie have some superficial similarities. This does not make them the same. Of course, you yourself admit that Cloud and Squall are not alike. What works for one might not work for the other.

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Originally Posted by

IN all seriousness, your case is just as hypothetical as mine; you act as if yours is written fact. There are multiple explanations for one incident. How do you know that Geostigma only affected him for a short amount of time, its not like the movie was very descriptive, he could have had it anywhere from a few months after to 2 years later. The movie failed to describe or extend much of the story hence why you and I assume so much.

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I'm not just relying on the movie. There ARE supplemental materials. I suggest you familiarize yourself with them. My position is supported by a lot more evidence than yours, which has almost none in the concrete department.

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Originally Posted by

Aeris was mysterious in the sense of her powers, just as Terra was in FF6 (the esper).

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And? How is this relevant to Aerith, as a person, or Tina, as a person, being mysterious? Moreover, how is this relevant to Cloud's emotions?

You know, we may be looking at these things out of context. Obviously not all of it, but some of it. Let us not forget that the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII remains incomplete to date, and we currently don't have the entire story. So perhaps this should be taken into account and also weighted appropriately with our evidence. Then again, perhaps not. Just a thought.

hey man...i didnt write it....its been a long time since i read it myself...i thought he had the "love triangle" thing down though...i will have to check it out....sorry......

I think that cloud was never into aerith. Remember, when she was alive, he thought he was zack, who was into her(that one was also sexual) He was always into tifa, which is shown blatantly in the end movie, when he grabs her hand

I think maybe the reason Cloud feels so guilty is becuase he was protecting her pretty much the entire time. For she hierd himas her body guard in the game, and although that kinda of fadded out I'm sure the whole protectivness feeling still remand. So when Sephiroth came down and killed her, he must felt the saddness of her death, plus the fatc that he faild in protecting her, wich is why he can't get her out of his head. I don't think it's love he's feeling for Aries, it's guilt. Also, the only reason Arie's would be infatuated with Cloud is becuase she see's Zack in him. If she didn't, than she probably wouldent have persude Cloud like she did. And if she didnt persue him, than i doubt anything would have happend, and Cloud would go straight to Tifa, instaed of getting alittle side tracked on the way there. Either way, I think he would end up being with Tifa.

But hey many people know way more about this than I do, and I could certanly be wrong.:)

Okay, so I got my copy of FFVII back (finally) a few days ago and I played through making sure that I would get a date with Tifa. During the gondola scene, it seems that Cloud is completely clueless as to what Tifa is trying to tell him, while with Aerith, he says nothing. This could be a sign of not having a clue, but it seems more likely to me that he is just trying to mask his feelings by saying nothing.

Cloud is not the type of person to just be silent when he doesn't understand something. There are cases of this all throughout the game, while on the other hand he is never truly open about his feelings in the game. Which is why I contend that his silence towards Aerith in the gondola is a sign of Cloud trying to hide his feelings. He doesn't want to tell Aerith that he loves her, but he doesn't want to tell her that he doesn't either, so he keeps his mouth shut in hopes that it will just go away.

I dont mind the romance stuff too much :)

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

I dont mind the romance stuff too much :)

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How is this even remotely on topic? If you're going to post in here, please contribute to the debate and not just make random comments. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

How is this even remotely on topic? If you're going to post in here, please contribute to the debate and not just make random comments. Thank you.

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I did contribute. You strongly look into this love thing so I offered my views on it in short. I dont care about the romance. Im entittled to share my views on the sbject. The subject is romance and in short I dont care. If anything I was hoping to maybe suprise or humour one of you romance gurus in this thread.

heres my view on the matter.

first. yuffie and cloud just doesnt work. i doubt theyd be a good match and although shes the only one you actually see kiss cloud (there are rumours about cloud and tifa having some sort of intikmacy under the highwind becuase in the morning she says something like "you were watching?" or depending on how youve treated her throughout the game "you were listening.".) anyway. im pretty sur eyuffie jusdt had some sort of minor crush which wouldnt turn into anything.

so that leaves aeris and tifa. aeris is kind and not shy at all but she had to die which (if you count all of the events of the game.) tifa is really the only possible one and even if there was some way for aeris to survive i think tifa and cloud is still a better couple. tifa is optimistic and cheerful and theyve known each other for a long time. then again cloud is pretty much exactly the same person as zack because he has all of his memories and zack was aerises first boyfriend. i think it would work with aeris or tifa. aeris being more open and less shy about showing feeling towards cloud would probably mean they would get together before tifa gets a chance. but there are many different outcomes on FF7 E.G. who cloud dates at the golden saucer. so in conclusion id say it works either way and there is no single perfect match. seems as we all know tifa better and she has more time in te game and film than aeris, id say tifa isd the better match because of how much is known about her and how much she develops through the game. it could work either way but im in favour of cloud and tifa over cloud and aeris.

im also pretty sure that tifa cares more about cloud than aeris does. and cloud might do the same. after all, they know each other well and i think square wanted them to be together. im quite sure that the tifa date at GS is supposed to be the easiest to get. im going to replay the game and get everyone elses date scene. i think distain brought up some good points about aeris and zack. perhaps aeris split up with zack and would do the same with cloud, but she might have only done that because sephiroth killed him.

I guess it really just come's down to what your prefrence is, and your personal views on the subject, since it seems that the relationship with Cloud could go either way between Tifa and Aries

Yeah I thought Aeris was soooooo annoying.. And her clothes were a bit like little girl clothes. I thought she was like 9 years old at first lol. I remember always being nice to tifa and not her lol. Then when Sephiroth stabbed her i was like awsome!!! thanks sephroth. I also didn't like Tifa after I found out she was a snobby little girl and didn't even know Cloud very well. So I think Cloud and Aeris were the best for eacj other because she seemed like she really loved him and etc....

Ok, strictly on ff7 (not AC or any other part of the compilation). Although originally, as they didn't have Tifa in the game, Cloud was meant to be with Aeris. However, once they decided to kill off Aeris and create this new character, Tifa (who is quite similar to Aeris in many ways), I believe that Cloud and Tifa were then meant to be together. In an interview, Tetsuya Nomura (is that his name? I forgot) stated that Tifa would be someone he'd be attracted to, both physically and emotionally. And, because he put a little bit of himself in Cloud, that's who Cloud is meant to be with. Also, that night under the Highwind... can't deny the chemistry there!
But, because in ff7 you can choose your romantic interest (or, if you're not into romance, you can always "date" Barret), there is no clear answer. I believe that the creators wanted Cloud and Tifa to be together.

yeh...go to the whirlwind maze with tifa in your main party and listen to all that and go to the part inside clouds head.....basically cloud and tifa are in love....the part aeris died just reminded him of how weak he was back when he was a kid and couldnt save tifa on mt. nibel....there....case closed....hahahahahahah

You know, sephirothishere, I never thought of Aerith's death like that. That maybe the reason Cloud felt so much guilt (and consequentally why he felt he couldn't save anyone in AC) is because it was almost like his inability to save Tifa on Mt. Nibel. I can't believe I never thought of that before. Thank you. This does explain some things.

A good point, Sephy. Glad I thought of it.

No, I'm not taking credit for your idea, I did think of it already, and I am addressing it in the essay, which will be written sooner or later. It's just taking so long because any time I bring up a point, I feel compelled to cross check every source I have to make sure I don't step over myself.

Your writing an essay on this?!?

It's more than just the LTD. It's Cloud's history and an analysis thereof.

Ahh..cool. Come to think of it there parobably is alot of source matirial for somthing like that.WEll good luck with it:D

yeah...no bother ryu....i am playing the game through an emulator on my computer cuz i had the game for playstation but im on my computer alot so i thought i would use time effectively and whatever...but you dont need my life story...anywho....i got disc 2 and whirlwind maze and mideel and all that stuff jus like the day before yesterday so it was fresh in my mind...but anybody who is still confused should play disc 2....alot of [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] explained pretty blatantly.....

I'm going to get off-topic, just to point out something. Aeris was not into Cloud simply because he reminded her of her ex-. She brought that up at the playground. She seemed to think thats why she liked him, but also seemed to want to get past the facade and get to know the real him. As was apparently stated in the date on the gondola. And where in the world was it implied that Aeris and Zack had a sexual relationship?

(Sorry if some of my quotes/topics are a bit old. I couldn’t access the internet for a while.)

I believe that in fact it would be Tifa that Cloud cares for the most. First off, Cloud made a life changing decision to gain Tifa's attention. That would mean that Cloud had some very strong feelings for Tifa and did something that completley changed his life, just for her. In the beginning, when they were children, Tifa was unaware of Cloud's feelings and so did not seem to actually care. Why care about something you don't know about? Besides, when Cloud managed to gather up his courage to tell Tifa how he felt about her, Tifa's mother had died, as seen in the flashback. Not a very good time to tell someone that you love them, true? Later, when Tifa fell and was in a coma, Cloud got the blame and he felt that Tifa hated him. Because of this, he got into many fights and he didn't care who or why, only that Tifa hated him and that there could be no way that Tifa would ever love him back. His love blinded him. And so he made the dramatic life-changing decision to join SOLDIER to gain power and to get Tifa’s attention and to get her to like him. I say he liked Tifa very, very, very, much. In fact he must’ve loved her. :)

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First off, in AC, Cloud is still lamenting over Aerith's death. Still blames himself, and still feels unforgiven. He feels the same way about Zack, but his connection with Aerith's death seems much more personal. In the case of Zack, there wasn't much he could do, but with Aerith, he felt that if he hadn't been controlled by Sephiroth at that time that he could have stopped it.

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He would be blaming himself because he believes that he is the one who got Aeris into this mess in the first place. If you recall, in the beginning of the game, he kept trying to get Aeris to stay home where it was ‘safe’ and to leave him be. But Aeris persisted and forcibly joined the group. Now, if Cloud hadn’t come crashing threw the roof and agreed to take her home and overall get her involved in his own problems Aeris would never have joined the group and thus would never have died. He did his damnedest (pardon my French) to get her to go home to safety, but she refused. It was because she met him that she died. That is all Cloud sees. And in a way he is right. He can’t forgive himself for getting Aeris involved and thus leading to her death. He feels he is wholly responsible for her death by meeting her. Just because he can’t forgive himself doesn’t necessarily mean that he loves her and is still mourning her. Just that, by meeting her in the first place and failing to protect her as her ‘bodyguard’, he feels that he is the one that killed her. Not Sephiroth.

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Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like he was about to say, "I'm here for you." This can be construed as him just being nice to her, but his quick change to "We're" is what makes me think that he's trying to mask some feelings. I don't know. Maybe I'm looking too deep, but that sounds pretty sentimental coming from Cloud. And his quick cover up definitely makes it seem like there is more there than meets the eye.

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Please keep in mind that Cloud wasn’t quite himself. Where he made a dramatic life changing decision for Tifa’s attention, he only remembers her almost vaguely and hardly intimately at all. Quite a difference, no? From what you described above, I believe this to be the changed Cloud with these feelings for Aeris. Later on, he is closer to Tifa than he was with Aeris.

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Which is why I contend that his silence towards Aerith in the gondola is a sign of Cloud trying to hide his feelings. He doesn't want to tell Aerith that he loves her, but he doesn't want to tell her that he doesn't either, so he keeps his mouth shut in hopes that it will just go away.

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Men don’t deal with emotional times, such as this, very well. You must admit it is very awkward and where Aeris may have prepared herself for this moment, it took Cloud completely by surprise and unsure as how to respond. And she is being a little vague. For example, how would you respond to someone after they said they loved you? (not that she did, just as an example)

Wow, Dragon Mage, I have to say, that is one of the most interesting and insightful theories I have read on this subject. That the reason Cloud seemed to hint towards liking Aerith at first was because he was so much like Zach. But you are right, that once he finds out who he really is, he definitely seems to warm up to Tifa a lot more. Very intriguing. I'll have to think on this.

I think using all this evidense from their childhood is kinda baseless. I won't deny they probably did grow to have genuine true feelings for each other. But when Cloud was a kid, there's no denying what he felt wasn't love. It was a deep obsessed infatuation. A crush. And part of growing up we all have to learn that's not the same as love. He didn't even know her. It can grow to become love, yes, if given the proper chance. But some people sound like Cloud and Tifa were best friends when they were growing up. They knew each other since childhood, yes. They later become friends. They aren't childhood friends. They're childhood acquaintances. She only started acknowleging his existance shortly before he left. I'm sure most people know what it's like to have a childhood obsession. And probably called it love then. But if anyone's been in a real relationship since, and can compare and contrast the differences. Actually getting to know someone. And having control of your feelings and such. He decided to join SOLDIER because he was obsessed with her. Not because he loved her. He maybe later grew to love her. He had strong feelings yes. But he barely knew her. He didn't love her as a child. So his childhood feelings shouldn't bear much weight on an argument towards who he loves now. Even if it does still end up being Tifa

^ Actually, later SE sources keep calling them childhood friends, so we have to try and reconcile that fact.

Though as for the LTD, I only use their past to show that the Cloud has been attracted to her (at least once he got old enough) and that he still thinks the same way. I always use more modern evidence for support as well.

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Wow, Dragon Mage, I have to say, that is one of the most interesting and insightful theories I have read on this subject. That the reason Cloud seemed to hint towards liking Aerith at first was because he was so much like Zach. But you are right, that once he finds out who he really is, he definitely seems to warm up to Tifa a lot more. Very intriguing. I'll have to think on this.

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Why thank you. I'm glad you liked it. :)

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I think using all this evidense from their childhood is kinda baseless. I won't deny they probably did grow to have genuine true feelings for each other. But when Cloud was a kid, there's no denying what he felt wasn't love. It was a deep obsessed infatuation. A crush. And part of growing up we all have to learn that's not the same as love. He didn't even know her. It can grow to become love, yes, if given the proper chance. But some people sound like Cloud and Tifa were best friends when they were growing up. They knew each other since childhood, yes. They later become friends. They aren't childhood friends. They're childhood acquaintances. She only started acknowleging his existance shortly before he left. I'm sure most people know what it's like to have a childhood obsession. And probably called it love then. But if anyone's been in a real relationship since, and can compare and contrast the differences. Actually getting to know someone. And having control of your feelings and such. He decided to join SOLDIER because he was obsessed with her. Not because he loved her. He maybe later grew to love her. He had strong feelings yes. But he barely knew her. He didn't love her as a child. So his childhood feelings shouldn't bear much weight on an argument towards who he loves now. Even if it does still end up being Tifa

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Excuse me but there is a huge difference between love and obsession. A person that is obsessed with another person usually turns out to stalk that person, though this isn't always the case. Obsession does not have as positive meaning as love does. And if you recall a stalker doesn't reveal their feelings at all, but continually follows that person because they are obsessed with them. Going to SOLDIER just to get Tifa to notice him doesn't seem like he was obsessed, and thus a stalker, with Tifa. Stalkers ususally go out of their way to go unoticed. And though Cloud loved Tifa, or had a strong affection for her, Tifa didn't really notice. So when they were children the situation was opposite from when they were older; when they were younger Cloud loved Tifa but she didn't neccessarily reciprocate that love/affection. When they are older Tifa loves Cloud but he doesn't seem to reciprocate that love. It's rather ironic.
From now on please be careful on how you use words such as obsession. Words are known to be tricky.

I never said he was a stalker. I said he was obsessed. That doesn't translate exactly into stalker. Some people can maintain an infatuation without crossing lines. I still maintain that he didn't really know her. And therefor, no matter what he thought he felt, couldn't have loved her. For what was there to love if he knew so little? Unreasonable emotion like that is often felt, by lots of people. And its not love. Its a crush. An infatuation.

And considering they didn't really know each other, and didn't really hang out. I think it's careless for Square to refer to them as childhood friends unless they want to go back and re-write their history. I realize Square intends for them to be together, and thinks its cute to grow up and hook up with your childhood friends, and if they had initially wanted that to happen, they would have been friends as children. And she would have paid attention to him as a child. And they would have hung out as children.

Edit: Also that wasn't directed towards you. So there's no need to take any offense. Just after reading your last post I realized all this. And if you actually look at their past it makes sense. They were only acquaintances as kids. And he had an unreasonable infatuation with her that wasn't returned until way later in life. Its not something I'd define as love. But will admit can grow into love, as stated.

And I am careful :] You're the one that equated it to "stalker". It doesn't have to become a stalker'ish trait. Stalker is negative. Obsession merely has the possibility of becoming negative. Which is why I also used the words "infatuation" and "crush" a lot to differentiate where I was going with the word.

Oh. And you think that if Cloud and Tifa didn't at least have some knowledge of each other that Tifa would have come to the playground that night when Cloud announced that he was going into SOLDIER? I don't know about you, but if I was Tifa, I wouldn't be caught with a guy I didn't know at a playground at night just because he asked me too. They had to have some trust towards each other, and trust is only developed through friendship. Thus, Tifa and Cloud very well could have been childhood friends.

I've seen people do crazier things for people they didn't know without the security of trust. Its a small town. Its not like he's going to rape and murder her without anybody seeing it or hearing it. There wasn't much to be afraid of

No, he wouldn't have raped her. That's not what I'm saying. But if she didn't know him at all when they were children, why would she even bother coming. Also, why would she then make that deal with Cloud about her hero? Do people normally call someone they don't know their hero? I certainly haven't seen that kind of thing happen.

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I never said he was a stalker. I said he was obsessed. That doesn't translate exactly into stalker. Some people can maintain an infatuation without crossing lines. I still maintain that he didn't really know her. And therefor, no matter what he thought he felt, couldn't have loved her. For what was there to love if he knew so little? Unreasonable emotion like that is often felt, by lots of people. And its not love. Its a crush. An infatuation.

Edit: Also that wasn't directed towards you. So there's no need to take any offense. Just after reading your last post I realized all this. And if you actually look at their past it makes sense. They were only acquaintances as kids. And he had an unreasonable infatuation with her that wasn't returned until way later in life. Its not something I'd define as love. But will admit can grow into love, as stated.

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I know it wasn't directed at me, I just decided to argue for the sake of arguing. :) (a little arguing never hurt anybody...sometimes).

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An infatuation.

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Ah ha! You have proved my point. Infatuation and obsession are very powerful words with a negative tone. I know I did turn it into 'stalker' but only because that was the tone/attitude you were implying. An infatuation can be very dangerous. Using such powerful words will often backfire.

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But if she didn't know him at all when they were children, why would she even bother coming. Also, why would she then make that deal with Cloud about her hero? Do people normally call someone they don't know their hero? I certainly haven't seen that kind of thing happen.

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And Aralith, you have an excellent point. You've obliterated Vyk's argument. :) Good job. :)

My personal view on it, which I cannot support with as many facts as I'd like, is that Cloud and Tifa knew each other at least decently well- they were next door neighbors, after all, and it's very difficult not to get to know those people very well- but that Tifa sort of took his presence, and him, for granted, but that after he made his declaration and went off to join Soldier, she realized what a ' good thing' had been under her nose the entire time.

that trust has probably got to do with the nibel mountain incident...she may nt have remembereed clearly the whole incident....but she knew cloud tried to help or maybe she remembered him following her and known he couldnt of pushed her off a cliff or whatever so she probably thought he was there to help....whatever...Aralith is right...and even if there wasnt evidence Square always describe them as childhood friends...

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But if she didn't know him at all when they were children, why would she even bother coming. Also, why would she then make that deal with Cloud about her hero?

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I didn't say she didn't know him at all. They grew up together in a small town. Of course they knew each other. I was saying they weren't close to each other. Not close enough for me to say they were friends. You're saying what would you do in that situation. Well, there are people I don't consider friends that I would trust. Meeting them at night wouldn't be too big a deal. Opening up and discovering them during a conversation at the town well woudln't be out of the question either. And if I were feeling particularly insecure, and even though we're not close I know I can trust this person. I may even be inclined to lean my securities on them a bit and ask if they'd be willing to be there for me in the future.

As for DM's whole "infatuation is bad" and "obsession means stalker" issue... um. What? You're not paying attention because you think I'm putting his emotions in a bad light by not using the word love. Even though I'm arguing that he wasn't in love with her so I can't use the word love. He had deep feelings for her yes. That doesn't always mean love. And when its not love doesn't always imply it's something bad. People can be obsessed with someone without stalking them. An infatuation can be innocent and good. I'm not trying to say Cloud was a mentally unstable childhood stalker. I'm saying he was too young to know what love was. He didn't know her well enough to think he could have been in love with her. He had a crush on her, and he let that crush guide him.

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As for DM's whole "infatuation is bad" and "obsession means stalker" issue... um. What? You're not paying attention because you think I'm putting his emotions in a bad light by not using the word love. Even though I'm arguing that he wasn't in love with her so I can't use the word love. He had deep feelings for her yes. That doesn't always mean love. And when its not love doesn't always imply it's something bad. People can be obsessed with someone without stalking them. An infatuation can be innocent and good. I'm not trying to say Cloud was a mentally unstable childhood stalker. I'm saying he was too young to know what love was. He didn't know her well enough to think he could have been in love with her. He had a crush on her, and he let that crush guide him.

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I've explained it enough. If you don't understand, then there's no help for you. You should probably look up what 'infatuation' and 'obsession' means. I never said that Cloud was a 'mentally unstable childhood stalker'; by using those words that is what, inadvertantly I believe, you are implying. 'Obsession' is a powerful word and I didn't see any shrine to Tifa made by Cloud ever mentioned; did you? I thought not. Besides this isn't a debate on if they were childhood friends or not. It's a debate on who Cloud loves, and you have said that he loves Tifa. So stop aimlessly ranting about something not related to this thread. If you feel compelled to continue going on about whether or not they were childhood friends, then make your own thread, and stop going on about it on this one.

Okay, so I found a new piece of game evidence that points towards Aerith. When you are at the end of the Temple of the Ancients, Cait Sith gives Aerith and Cloud a reading of their future. I wasn't going to use this before, but after just playing the game getting a date with Tifa, I have discovered that this is not variable text. The prediction that Cait Sith gives them is that they're perfect for each other.

Even if you've been mean to her the entire time (as I did in my game). So it's pretty obvious that even if he didn't love her, they certainly would have made the perfect couple. Even better than him and Tifa. Even Marlene thinks this. When Marlene says that she thinks the flower girl likes Cloud, if you respond "I don't know" she says: "Stupid".

Okay, I think that was acceptable, because no matter what you say to her, she says something that would be condusive to you liking Aerith. For if you choose the option, "Let's hope so", Marlene says, "It's okay. I won't tell Tifa." So, I hope this is admissable. If it's not, then just let me know Ruyshikaze.

Cloud should get rid of both of them, grab yuffie, a bottle of russian vodka with that all important bottle of coke, go find an inn and have one hell of a night.

EDIT: Maybe Elena from the turks could come too? Duuuuuude, that sounds........ Interesting.

I Am Stoner, if you really think that it was Yuffie that Cloud loved, please so say in a manner that would give you an atmosphere of credibility, and please support it with facts. Else you are not contributing to this debate.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Okay, so I found a new piece of game evidence that points towards Aerith. When you are at the end of the Temple of the Ancients, Cait Sith gives Aerith and Cloud a reading of their future. I wasn't going to use this before, but after just playing the game getting a date with Tifa, I have discovered that this is not variable text. The prediction that Cait Sith gives them is that they're perfect for each other.

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1. If it is astrology, then we still have to deal with Cait's 1 in 4 success rate- less than real world fortune teller's average, scarily enough- especially that the 'success' is so vague as to be infalsifiable.
2. Even though Cait says they are perfect, this is not the whole of the prediction. He also adds " Aeris's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!", which given Aerith's end, is decidedly falsified.
3. If we assume is it opinion and not a falsified prediction, Cait is not Cloud. Cait cannot speak for Cloud. Or even if it was a true prediction, that Cloud would necessarily agree with it.

There is a reason I wanted to focus on Cloud, and it's because he's the only person who can speak for his own emotions.

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Even if you've been mean to her the entire time (as I did in my game). So it's pretty obvious that even if he didn't love her, they certainly would have made the perfect couple. Even better than him and Tifa. Even Marlene thinks this. When Marlene says that she thinks the flower girl likes Cloud, if you respond "I don't know" she says: "Stupid".

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Marlene is four. Marlene is also not Cloud. What others think is not necessarily what he thinks.

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Okay, I think that was acceptable, because no matter what you say to her, she says something that would be condusive to you liking Aerith. For if you choose the option, "Let's hope so", Marlene says, "It's okay. I won't tell Tifa." So, I hope this is admissable. If it's not, then just let me know Ruyshikaze.

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Only if the "Is she your girlfriend" answers Cloud himself gives to Aerith are also, both of which end up with a positive C/T reinforcements.

Hmm... very true, Ryushikaze. I did realize that Cait Sith has not the best of accuracy, but I had never thought of the whole, "Aerith's star," thing being false once she died. I guess if it was a true prediction then he would have also seen that coming. I withdraw my statement about the prediction, for it has no credibility whatsoever.

As for the rest of it, you are also correct. I concede. I'll try to make sure that I analyze my evidence more the next time I post. Until then, farewell.

Edit: When are you going to be finished with that essay, Ryu? I'm REALLY looking forward to it. It should be a good read.

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When are you going to be finished with that essay, Ryu? I'm REALLY looking forward to it. It should be a good read.

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Same here. (no pressure...I'm just looking forward to it) :)

Real life has been getting in the way. I'm currently up to the early portion of the game (for reference, the essay begins with Cloud's childhood).

this essay is in chronological order?....great.......
oh yeh...cait sith probably got confused with zack and cloud...i dunno but thats jus what i thought when i was playin through that part...

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Originally Posted by Aralith

I Am Stoner, if you really think that it was Yuffie that Cloud loved, please so say in a manner that would give you an atmosphere of credibility, and please support it with facts. Else you are not contributing to this debate.

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Hahaha, sorry if I offended you man, I didn't mean to. It was my idea of a joke. But now that I look at it, it wasn't funny. I should really stop drinking coffee, sorry dude.

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

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When are you going to be finished with that essay, Ryu? I'm REALLY looking forward to it. It should be a good read.

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Same here. (no pressure...I'm just looking forward to it) :)

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Ooh, me too! Romance debates are the best parts about these forums!

And I will continue to wait for the essay. So no matter how old this thread gets, at least I will be here to read it. And I will keep checking up on it to see if there has been any change. Just so you know that you still have an audience, Ryushikaze.

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

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That is what we call bumping don't do that or this thread will be closed, and if you don't stop and do it too often you may be banned.

Yeah, don't do that, Dragon Mage. Be patient. Also, don't modwhore. When you see someone do something like that, warn the post!

Oh ok (I always wondered what the hell that warn ment :p)

Whoops! I'm sorry. I didn't mean to post that. That was an accident. My computer loves to screw up and the mouse was moving across the screen on it's own. This has happened before and whatever the pointer lands on it automatically 'clicks'. I don't know why but it just acts up like that sometimes. Sorry again. It was a posting error, not a bump.

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Also, don't modwhore

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er...what?

I'm kinda new here and this is the first time I ever posted here. I just wanna say sorry if I make a few mistakes. Anyway, I'd like to join this debate. I don't wanna argue actually but I want to defend Cloud and Tifa's relationship. So, here goes..!! I really think that Cloud should be with tifa instead of aerith. In ac, we can see that Cloud and tifa are living together for like 2 years, right? We don't actually know what they're doing within that 2 years..but as for me, I think something happened between them..something good. that's why tifa's wearing a ring on her wedding finger. we could say that's just some kind of friendship ring..or maybe it's something more than just friendship..maybe it's love or something like that. at least that's what I think..

modwhore means to act like a mod instead of reporting the post. small modwhoring can be o.k sometimes i guess. its best to use the warn button.

square seems to intend the two to be together and because of how many choices there are in the game because you can choose to like or dislike any of the girls, its hard to say.

I think tifa should be Clouds love cus they grew up together and b4 cloud left home he promisted Tifa that he would salf her if she ever got in a jam and what man in the right mind make that promist and not love the girl he said he'll save

I don't think it should be Aeirs cus she mead cloud dress up in a dress and i think she only liked cloud cus he reminded her of Zack who she use to go out with

And not Yuffif cus she may only want him for his Materiadew to wutai not having any

Sure! I agree with you. All along Aerith only notice Cloud as Zack. Even Cloud didn't know that. Aerith only knew whom Cloud really is after she died. So think, if Aerith first met Cloud and if she knew she wasn't seeing Zack inside of him..do you think she even like Cloud? I'm guessing no.

Pretty good TifaxCloud, but back up your opinion a bit more. However I don't believe they're married/engaged. They simply don't strike me as 'there' yet. They certainly don't act like it in the movie. Oh, sure there's some strong feelings there...but they have yet to be fully expressed. (heh; men always dilly-dally. :D ) I have no idea what's up with the whole ring thing, but if you were going to marry someone you most likely would get them a ring that is has a shiny stone in it; not a ring that looks like a wolf.

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

Pretty good TifaxCloud, but back up your opinion a bit more. However I don't believe they're married/engaged. They simply don't strike me as 'there' yet. They certainly don't act like it in the movie. Oh, sure there's some strong feelings there...but they have yet to be fully expressed. (heh; men always dilly-dally. :D ) I have no idea what's up with the whole ring thing, but if you were going to marry someone you most likely would get them a ring that is has a shiny stone in it; not a ring that looks like a wolf.

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It does have a shiny stone in it, actually.

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

Pretty good TifaxCloud, but back up your opinion a bit more. However I don't believe they're married/engaged. They simply don't strike me as 'there' yet. They certainly don't act like it in the movie. Oh, sure there's some strong feelings there...but they have yet to be fully expressed. (heh; men always dilly-dally. :D ) I have no idea what's up with the whole ring thing, but if you were going to marry someone you most likely would get them a ring that is has a shiny stone in it; not a ring that looks like a wolf.

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Technically, it does not have to be a shiney stone. The ring could be anything as long as it was a symbol of love and marriage that the couple know about, then it could be anything really.

Where's the shiny the stone. :shifty: I saw none.

And Mad Dragons, what you say is true, however a stone is preferable, ask any girl.

1:28:04? I haven't checked the stamp on the DVDs but it's visible for a brief moment when Tifa holds Denzel's shoulders in the church cum olympic swimming pool (an improvement if you ask me).

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Originally Posted by Dr. Acula

I believe that the creators wanted Cloud and Tifa to be together.

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I agree. If the creators wanted Aerith to be with Cloud why didn't they just let her lives and let tifa die instead?

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in the church cum olympic swimming pool (an improvement if you ask me).

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lol, I agree.

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Originally Posted by TifaxCloud

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Originally Posted by Dr. Acula

I believe that the creators wanted Cloud and Tifa to be together.

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I agree. If the creators wanted Aerith to be with Cloud why didn't they just let her lives and let tifa die instead?

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Well, there's actually a reason that Aerith died. And that would be because she was the last remaining Ancient and therefore the only one of the party members who could exert control over the Lifestream in death. You remember at the end of the game when Holy was actually helping Meteor more than it was hindering it and everything seemed lost. And then the Lifestream came bubbling out of the ground and was headed towards Meteor and Aerith's face is visible for a brief moment just before the credits start to roll.

Well, we know that whatever the Lifestream did, it saved the Planet. We also know that the Lifestream was caused by Aerith. This same effect is visible in AC when the Lifestream comes gushing out of the ground in the church towards the end. So, Aerith needed to die, else the world would have been destroyed by Meteor. That is why the story worked out the way it did. Aerith's death had nothing to do with who Cloud did or didn't love.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Well, I believe that Aerith was the one whom Cloud had (or should have) really fallen in love with. I say should have because of the fact that depending on how one plays the game, they can effect the affection values for each character. I admit that I have not had the chance to take even Tifa on a date in the game (would have but currently my copy of VII is lent out to someone) and therefore only have the game script to give me knowledge of the other dates.

While it is entirely possible to also date Yuffie and even Barret (never understood that) I do not believe that they are true candidates for the following reason. Cloud never really shows any interest in Yuffie, even when you take her out that she and Cloud don't really seem to have a connection (despite the fact that she's the only one that you can kiss) as she acts hyper like her normal self and I just can't see Cloud with that. He's much to calm for her.

Then the obvious reason that I Cloud just wouldn't be with Barret because he's not gay. Even on the "date" they don't really act at all like it's a date. More just like two friends that just weren't used to being able to talk alone.

So, now it's pretty much down to just Tifa and Aerith. So, now I'm going to examine the reasons why those two may or may not be good for Cloud.

Aerith is good for Cloud for several reasons. She is kind-hearted, self-sacrificing, and very strong-minded. She had a connection with Cloud on a very deep level, one that even Tifa could never seem to find. When Aerith and Cloud went on a date, she said, "I want to meet the real you." Now, this is pretty much the only way that this line could have been translated, but in Japanese this phrase has a much deeper meaning to it. To meet someone is to know their soul in a very deep and connecting way. This is pretty clear proof that at least Aerith had feelings for Cloud, even if he didn't return them (which I contend that he did).

Now, there are several things that would point to Aerith and Cloud not being together as well, which (for the sake of remaining unbiased) I will discuss as well. One of these is the so-called "innocence" of Aerith. This is so not true. Aerith is far from innocent, everything from her comments about Tifa and Cloud to trying to swindle some guys out of a good deal of money would prove this. Another point is that Aerith has not known Cloud nearly as long as Tifa has.

Now, there are also many reasons why Tifa and Cloud would be good together. They have known each other since childhood and Cloud pretty much adored Tifa then. Also, Tifa has a much more self-sacrificing trait than Aerith. She definitely cares for Cloud, because she always seems to be hurt when Aerith makes the careless comments about Tifa and Cloud that I spoke of earlier.

There are also reasons why Tifa and Cloud shouldn't be together. Like I said earlier, Cloud almost glamorized Tifa, while she seemed to ignore him (we found this out in Cloud's memory in the lifestream) and this may have turned her off for a while. They weren't nearly the childhood friends they thought they were in the beginning. Tifa obviously didn't know Cloud well enough to know if she should tell him the truth about the Nibelheim incident, and ended up not telling him, which in the end nearly destroyed him.

Overall, the only two true contenders for Cloud's love are Tifa and Aerith, and with the evidence it becomes more a matter of interpretation and gameplay that decides who Cloud gives his heart to. I for one prefer Aerith over Tifa just because of my preferences and such, and therefore I believe that it should be Cloud and Aerith, though I believe that those who think it's Cloud and Tifa are just as justified as I am in their beliefs.

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I agree.:)

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Originally Posted by Aralith

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Originally Posted by TifaxCloud

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Originally Posted by Dr. Acula

I believe that the creators wanted Cloud and Tifa to be together.

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I agree. If the creators wanted Aerith to be with Cloud why didn't they just let her lives and let tifa die instead?

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Well, there's actually a reason that Aerith died. And that would be because she was the last remaining Ancient and therefore the only one of the party members who could exert control over the Lifestream in death. You remember at the end of the game when Holy was actually helping Meteor more than it was hindering it and everything seemed lost. And then the Lifestream came bubbling out of the ground and was headed towards Meteor and Aerith's face is visible for a brief moment just before the credits start to roll.

Well, we know that whatever the Lifestream did, it saved the Planet. We also know that the Lifestream was caused by Aerith. This same effect is visible in AC when the Lifestream comes gushing out of the ground in the church towards the end. So, Aerith needed to die, else the world would have been destroyed by Meteor. That is why the story worked out the way it did. Aerith's death had nothing to do with who Cloud did or didn't love.

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Technically, it was caused by the 'souls' of the dead rallying together to move the lifestream via their wills, but Aerith was the one who said "push".

And I agree, Aerith's death has nothing to do with who Cloud loves. Very little of the plot does, since it's ancillary to Cloud discovering himself.

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Originally Posted by Pure Aerisbeauty7

I agree.:)

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Wow... Y'know, maybe I should have mentioned this to start, but please, no parroting. Add to the discussion, don't just echo others.

As for the essay, it's on hiatus. I got up to Wall Market and lost both time and inclination. I can post my conclusions on Cloud's childhood, which is largely self contained, if anyone's interested.

I think Tifa should be Clouds love cus when it comes to the date part and you get tifa and your on the ride i'm sure Tifa tries to tell cloud she loves him but she can't get the words out also at the end of disk two you see them sitting out side migar and the look like two lovers to me

I always thought it was the planet that tried to protect itself by using the lifestream.

Besides it's not like Aeris is missing out on anything by being dead. She's pretty lively for a dead person.

Cloud and Tifa were too "chummy" to be lovers. They grew up together. Tifa was prettymuch a guy to Cloud. She wasn't dainty or delicate, like Aeris. She was manly and buff. I think that she may have had some kind of crush on him, though. She said all that stuff about wanting her hero to come save her. But as they grew up, they seem to have grown into more mature friends, and ditched off the childish teenage crushes they held onto before.

I don't know about Cloud and Aeris being in love, either. Though it certainly seems like it. His compensation for protecting her is that she has to go out with him. And there's other things I can't recall that suggest the idea.

Truthfully, I was kinda hoping that Cloud would end up with Barret. That would be hot.

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Tifa was prettymuch a guy to Cloud. She wasn't dainty or delicate, like Aeris. She was manly and buff.

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Just because a woman can kick some serious as* doesn't mean she's a guy or to manly to be liked by a guy. Dainty and delicate people break easily; as Sephiroth showed us so well.

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

Dainty and delicate people break easily; as Sephiroth showed us so well.

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Ouch. That was a bit of a low blow. :(

Anyways, can you provide a link to that Ryushikaze, because I have no idea what hiatus is or how to access it. I Googled it and found nothing that would suggest it is an information sharing site or any kind of thing where you could post something. So please provide a link, because I would most certainly like to read that.

Edit: Yeah, I was kind of retarded when I wrote this. It was 5:00 in the morning and I hadn't had much sleep. So, forgive me for this absolutely stupid thing that I did. I was walking to Music Theory this morning when I suddenly realized what it was you meant by "hiatus" Ryushikaze. So yeah, this is probably the most retarded thing I have ever done. Excuse me while I go shoot myself.

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Originally Posted by feioncastor

Cloud and Tifa were too "chummy" to be lovers. They grew up together.

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Yes, and childhood friends becoming lovers is a time worn cliche. How does them being chummy and childhood friends preclude their romance?

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Tifa was prettymuch a guy to Cloud.

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Prove it, with evidence, or don't make the claim.

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She wasn't dainty or delicate, like Aeris.

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She was arguably more dainty than Aerith, who practically bum rushed her way through social interaction.

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She was manly and buff.

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Are we even talking about the same Tifa here?

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I think that she may have had some kind of crush on him, though.

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Ya think?

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She said all that stuff about wanting her hero to come save her. But as they grew up, they seem to have grown into more mature friends, and ditched off the childish teenage crushes they held onto before.

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Except Tifa said she started becoming even more interested after he had gone, and they never had a chance to "grow" into more mature friends, seeing as they were apart for two and then five years.

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I don't know about Cloud and Aeris being in love, either. Though it certainly seems like it. His compensation for protecting her is that she has to go out with him.

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She offered that service, and he didn't care. Besides, it's unlikely he cares about getting payed to babysit a flowergirl home (recall, this was before he knew about the danger and it is an order of magnitude below the armed assault and sabotage of a guarded and running nuclear power plant).

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And there's other things I can't recall that suggest the idea.

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Specific examples or don't even bother. Vague handwavey claims do not contribute and are unwelcome.

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Truthfully, I was kinda hoping that Cloud would end up with Barret. That would be hot.

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Except this thread is about determining via suspension of disbelief who, if anyone, Cloud's affections lie with. Not fangirl druthers.

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Ouch. That was a bit of a low blow.

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No offense meant to you, of course. Just trying to tell feioncastor that dainty and delicate don't really help you much when you're trying to save the world.

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Well, there's actually a reason that Aerith died. And that would be because she was the last remaining Ancient and therefore the only one of the party members who could exert control over the Lifestream in death. You remember at the end of the game when Holy was actually helping Meteor more than it was hindering it and everything seemed lost. And then the Lifestream came bubbling out of the ground and was headed towards Meteor and Aerith's face is visible for a brief moment just before the credits start to roll.

Well, we know that whatever the Lifestream did, it saved the Planet. We also know that the Lifestream was caused by Aerith. This same effect is visible in AC when the Lifestream comes gushing out of the ground in the church towards the end. So, Aerith needed to die, else the world would have been destroyed by Meteor. That is why the story worked out the way it did. Aerith's death had nothing to do with who Cloud did or didn't love.

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In that case, why didn't they just let Tifa die as well or maybe Cloud so that Tifa would be all alone..? Try answering that one..!

Hi, please don't revive old threads. :) This one is almost 2 months old. The best thing to do when you have a question you'd like to ask is PM'ing the member you want to ask. If the question is not to a certain person you could always make a topic out of it and make a new thread. Thanks. :choc: