do you consider rap to be music? IF YOU LIKE RAP DONT COME IN HERE

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One more thing, just so hate I dont get hate mails and have to continously defend myself in wars...I have changed my mind some rap is pretty good. Im listening to it now.

Well...I honestly dont . I dont hate rap but I dont think its music. I think its a lack of talent and is some one yelling things with a speech impediment. The beats are music but the rap is not music to me. Its usually an foul and obnoxious mix of dirty and violent lyrics. I dont consider it to be a pleasing sound nor would I consider it music. I would consider it public speaking on the radio being expressed not in song , but in a burst of out bursts with an unprivileged person of the english language making nursing rythmes as he sounds "cool" saying it all with a speech impediment with a loud voice...not singing at all. Some unprivileged person person or even worse a wanna be some one that can actually talk and knows how to spell and speak at atleast a 4th grade level....;) ....who butchers words and themes because he wants to sound cool with his rythmes.

They are all think its cool to talk this way and ruin words but really it just shows how pathetic and weak our school systems truly are and I hate it when this is encouraged. Some dont even talk that why by nature they rap and mimmic the speech impediment so that they dont have to actually try to have any real talent . They read off a "script " some one wrote and they dont even sing it with talent. They just yell it out like a 4 year old and some people consider this music!!!!

Gansta....? No ganster.
I could go on but its obvious how rap helps butcher the english language. I dont consider it music at all. The themes arent thought out its a rythme full of trash and some one says it all twisting the hell out of the english language in order to try to make this garbage flow.


I'll be the 1st to admiitt english isnt great but rap damns the man.
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One more thing, just so hate I dont get hate mails and have to continously defend myself in wars...I have changed my mind some rap is pretty good. Im listening to it now.

Im sorry, I like rap but I had to come to this thread as It'll just be biased opinions which are posted here.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Music is the artistic form of human expression in the medium of time using the structures of sounds or tones and silence

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I believe Rap music fits that description, this thread is over.

I said my opinion and you said yours nothing is over. I dont consider it music but I am more than happy to read other takes on it. I say its not music because I dont think it deserves to be. NO TALENT IN RAP.

Edit: Wikipedia isn't a 100% reliable source.

Doesn't music always have to have a melody? Of course, it's been so long since I've taken anything regarding music...

But yeah, don't consider it music. Or at least not good music. But if you really enjoy it, more power to ya. :cat:

Rap gets the girls movin. So its good in my book :D .

Yes, Rap is music. and I listen to some of it.:)

You're probably referring to most of the mainstream rap, lovehurts. 50 Cent, TI, Ja Rule. I'll agree that most of them suck. But you have to look at all aspects of it. Have you listened to any "underground" rap? I think if you listened to some of it, often having politically charged or deep messages in them, you might see it in a different light. It's ridiculous to say that all rap requires no talent. Some underground rappers write genius songs. Go listen to Talib Kweli or Wyclef Jean (his solo career), and it might change your mind.

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

I think it’s a lack of talent and is some one yelling things with a speech impediment.

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Not all rap is nonsensical yelling. Just like not all rock is nonsensical yelling. It does take a certain amount of talent and creativity to come up with rhyming lyrics that will fit the idea of the song. And some rap artists are their own producers, so they come up with the beats for their own songs. Which takes alot of talent.

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Its usually an foul and obnoxious mix of dirty and violent lyrics.

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Some rappers are like that, but not all of them. I just think you need to be open-minded to rap to want to learn more about the artists that are more positive. Like Common and Talib Kweli for instance.

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I don’t consider it to be a pleasing sound nor would I consider it music. I would consider it public speaking on the radio being expressed not in song , but in a burst of out bursts with an unprivileged person of the english language making nursing rythmes as he sounds "cool" saying it all with a speech impediment with a loud voice...not singing at all.

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That's your personal opinion. Some people happen to like this genre of music. And I've heard some people try to rap, but they were horrible at it. It's not as easy as it looks to find the right flow. Believe me. Especially in free styling rap.

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I could go on but its obvious how rap helps butcher the english language.

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I listen to rap and I don't talk like that. It's not the music, it's the individual and how easily influenced they are.

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it all twisting the hell out of the english language in order to try to make this garbage flow.

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Some poets and rockstars do this too. But I don't see you complaining about that. Just, because you don't like it that doesn't mean it's not music.

I don't like it. But I still think it is music. Like the wiki quote said, it is an artistic form of expression using vocal tones. While I don't consider it good music at all, it still is music none the less. It really is all about expression. But I do agree that it is bringing down the English language even further.

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Originally Posted by I Took the Red Pill

You're probably referring to most of the mainstream rap, lovehurts. 50 Cent, TI, Ja Rule. I'll agree that most of them suck. But you have to look at all aspects of it. Have you listened to any "underground" rap? I think if you listened to some of it, often having politically charged or deep messages in them, you might see it in a different light. It's ridiculous to say that all rap requires no talent. Some underground rappers write genius songs. Go listen to Talib Kweli or Wyclef Jean (his solo career), and it might change your mind.

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I posted this thread hoping to see something like this. I feel that rap is so bad right now. This post is something different. It was open minded and thoughtfull enough to suggest that I would be open minded enough to further examine something I currently dont like. I respect that and I think Im going to seek out the "underground rap"

Thank you.:D

Also I want to thank the others as well. I'll give rap another chance. I love when a thread can change my mind. I'll try to be more open minded.

Some rap's ok, then some is just disgusting.

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

NO TALENT IN RAP.

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Biased. You obviously dont like rap, so you fail to see talent. And when does talent come into this, even if someone had no talent, he can still create a melody, which believe it or not, is music.

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Originally Posted by Dreddz

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

NO TALENT IN RAP.

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Biased. You obviously dont like rap, so you fail to see talent. And when does talent come into this, even if someone had no talent, he can still create a melody, which believe it or not, is music.

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MAybe you are right....I guess the thread is still open either way

I am going to listen to some "underground rap" so I can actually be more fair. Even if I dont like it some one does, but if I still hate it I'll let you all know.

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

Edit: Wikipedia isn't a 100% reliable source.

Doesn't music always have to have a melody? Of course, it's been so long since I've taken anything regarding music...

But yeah, don't consider it music. Or at least not good music. But if you really enjoy it, more power to ya. :cat:

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No, it does not. Atonal stuff is totally devoid of melody, and yet is still able to be considered music.

Rap is music as long as it has some good talent in it, like:

The Old Light by Fat Jon and Nujabes
Think Different by Fat Jon
Feather by Fat Jon

And some others.

Honestly, I like some rap...by and large, I don't like the genre, but there are songs in it I do like. Gangsta rap, I loathe, just my opinion.

However to say something like this, and exclude those who would disagree with you from the conversation, I find to be rather narrow minded.

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Originally Posted by Giga Guess

Honestly, I like some rap...by and large, I don't like the genre, but there are songs in it I do like. Gangsta rap, I loathe, just my opinion.

However to say something like this, and exclude those who would disagree with you from the conversation, I find to be rather narrow minded.

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No one has excluded anyone. Disagreemnt is human but no one was excluded actually I took there advice to try more of the music.

Everything I have wanted to say has already been said - what's popular right now gives an extremely bad image to what can be a great genre of music, if you listen to the right people. I hate gangster rap, but I'll be darned if I can go a week without listening to a nerdcore artist and just loving the whole experience.

Ok I admitt it there is one rap song I know that I like becuase it is "fun"but I dont know if its appropiate to post here it says some bad things. I love the song though....

Anyways I guess it is not all bad. Its kind of "fun"

Let me just say something. Rap stands for Retards Attempting Poetry. I have spoken.

I GET IT NOW. RAp is "fun".....? :confused:

haha hambone actually its kind of fun to listen to...

EDIT: IF they didnt go dirty in some of these songs, this stuff could be alot of fun to listen to.

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Originally Posted by Hambone

Let me just say something. Rap stands for Retards Attempting Poetry. I have spoken.

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I would come up with an acronym for Hambone that stands for ignorant and close-minded towards rap but I've recently been struck with ze writer's block :monster:

Actually I love this one rap song. I dont understand alot of it but it has me rocking in my chair I love this song. I cant post it here though.:)

Some people who dont have anything has rap its another way for them to escape their lives. I hate and thinks it funny when someone who has everything they need still thinks they understand wher some rapers are coming from and act like they belong on the street but there nothing but posers. For some its all theve got, for other its entertainment.

I think itrs music i love some songs but some suck others prevoke violence and some are just plane retarded. I heard a rap song about Area codes WTF!

I hate it when people stereotype people who like rap songs were all human beings so if you think listening to violins and watching ballet then your dead wrong. Some "Gangsta" people from my school get better grades than i do. Its just another form of music. Some groups at my school hate rap and love rock but still gets crapy grades. Its just a different group dont hate.

But i can understand my brother got involved in the popular rap group and did pot and got into huge trouple and that changed his life plus he became a selfish bastard as a result but theres good and bad for eveything. I just love to love.:)

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Originally Posted by Vikeve

Some people who dont have anything has rap its another way for them to escape their lives. I hate and thinks it funny when someone who has everything they need still thinks they understand wher some rapers are coming from and act like they belong on the street but there nothing but posers. For some its all theve got, for other its entertainment.

I think itrs music i love some songs but some suck others prevoke violence and some are just plane retarded. I heard a rap song about Area codes WTF!

I hate it when people stereotype people who like rap songs were all human beings so if you think listening to violins and watching ballet then your dead wrong. Some "Gangsta" people from my school get better grades than i do. Its just another form of music. Some groups at my school hate rap and love rock but still gets crapy grades. Its just a different group dont hate.

But i can understand my brother got involved in the popular rap group and did pot and got into huge trouple and that changed his life plus he became a selfish bastard as a result but theres good and bad for eveything. I just love to love.:)

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Yes some of it is fun.:) I change my mind.

Let me start by saying I like Rap, or at least I did when it first came out. Most of the Rap these days is obscene drivel and not worth my time.

Rap is not music. It is an element of music. Combined with other elements it can be used to make music but by itself it is not music.

Music is "The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre." To have music you need a composition (The combining of distinct parts or elements to form a whole) of these things. Just two will do. The only thing Rap has is rhythm. That's it. It doesn't even have timbre since that would require them to use more then one pitch. If you combine Rap with Timber and a Melody though.... then you have music and in the right hands it can be a wonderful experience.

Even so, Rap in it's essence is not music.

One more thing, just so I dont get hate mails and have to continously defend myself in wars...I have changed my mind some rap is pretty good. Im listening to it now. :D

To me, saying rap isn't music is like saying a drum isn't an instument. Just because there's not an abundance of notes doesn't mean that maintaining different rhythms and volumes takes talent and evokes emotion.

Rap isn't just talking. If it were that easy, everyone and their mothers would be spitting verses like it was nothing. To keep rhythm and pace to your lyrics takes just as much effort as singing. That's why, just like singing, anybody can attempt to rap, but it truly takes talent to keep with a beat and actually make songs that people would want to listen to.

Also, like different drums, the different tones and approaches of voices convey completely different feelings. Listening to the booming voice of Chuck D from Public Enemy demands your attention and perfectly conveys the politically-charged songs PE deals out. Whereas someone like Q-Tip from A Tribe Called Quest has a smooth, relaxed tone that matches the jazzy vibe that ATCQ songs offer. "Rap" is just as general a term as "Rock". Within each there are completely different subgenres and to not like one shouldn't lead to an entire dismissal and generalization of the main category.

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The only thing Rap has is rhythm. That's it. It doesn't even have timbre since that would require them to use more then one pitch. If you combine Rap with Timber and a Melody though.... then you have music and in the right hands it can be a wonderful experience.

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Exactly. And this is where DJs/Production comes in. A great MC is nothing without great production to back him up. Though since he mentioned the beats I assumed he was dismissing the final product.

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I have changed my mind some rap is pretty good. Im listening to it now.

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I'm glad you've found the right style to match your tastes. Hopefully you can find a bunch of artists you like. Happy hunting!

No, I don't really consider it to be music.
Generally I don't like it, but there are a few that are okay.
Like Crazy in Love and Where is the love and a couple of other one's I can't remember the name of.

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Originally Posted by El Bandito

To me, saying rap isn't music is like saying a drum isn't an instument. Just because there's not an abundance of notes doesn't mean that maintaining different rhythms and volumes takes talent and evokes emotion.

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So close. Drums can make music but they are not music. If I took a single drum and beat on it with no change to the tone or timbre that would not be music, it would be a beat. Nothing more nothing less. When you combine it with something then you have music. Rap is like that drumbeat.

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Originally Posted by El Bandito

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The only thing Rap has is rhythm. That's it. It doesn't even have timbre since that would require them to use more then one pitch. If you combine Rap with Timber and a Melody though.... then you have music and in the right hands it can be a wonderful experience.

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Exactly. And this is where DJs/Production comes in. A great MC is nothing without great production to back him up.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

Let me start by saying I like Rap, or at least I did when it first came out. Most of the Rap these days is obscene drivel and not worth my time.

Rap is not music. It is an element of music. Combined with other elements it can be used to make music but by itself it is not music.

Music is "The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre." To have music you need a composition (The combining of distinct parts or elements to form a whole) of these things. Just two will do. The only thing Rap has is rhythm. That's it. It doesn't even have timbre since that would require them to use more then one pitch. If you combine Rap with Timber and a Melody though.... then you have music and in the right hands it can be a wonderful experience.

Even so, Rap in it's essence is not music.

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When, exactly, did rap first come out?

Rap is music. Granted, it's not a style I like to listen to.

Timbre describes the distinctiveness of a particular sound; it's what allows us to distinguish between a violin and a cymbal crash, for example. Pitch doesn't matter in determining timbre.

That definition of music is lame. "Continuous"? Silence is a part of music. "Unified" and "evocative" are relative terms. They change depending on where the music comes from- from what period, from what culture. Anyway, most rap incorporates other sounds: keyboards, vocal song, etc., etc.

That aside, I can't tolerate most rap...that is, most rap I hear (which is limited to whatever is on the radio or TV before I can hurriedly change the station.) Basically, it's just the mentality that's so often presented in rap that really annoys me. Also, mindless dance anthems like "Let ya' shoaaaalda' lean" are really irritating to me- not to mention sitting in my car (despite my windows being rolled up) hearing about how some gentleman spends his time "robbin' niggas, and beatin' ho's down" and what not.

I know there is plenty of rap out there that has nothing to do with all of this, but in general I prefer rock and classical, to name a couple of genres.

Listen to Diamonds by Kanye West, if a piano solo isn't music then what is :(

Also, listen to We Run This by Missy Elliott, if the saxophones and bongos in the background aren't music then what is :(

Listen to Kick Push by Lupe Fiasco, there's a whole mix of instruments in that one /playing music/ :(


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When, exactly, did rap first come out?

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I've been under the imperession that rap first gained popularity in the 80s.

Undergroup rap started to gain notoriety in the '70s, actually.

I've heard that Rap is an acronym for "rhythm and poetry" which if it's true, then no rap isn't music. Because if it was, then stupid beatniks reciting poetry to some bongos would have to be considered music too.

And while I do like very few rappers, I don't really listen to it.

I listen to rap because that's the music I was born into.I've listened to rap,hip-hop,R&B all my life and won't change now.But I agree underground rap and the old stuff are great while the new mainstream songs are just getting worse...I remember at sunday school one sunday our teacher referred to the rap culture as a "dying culture".Which it is.

What happened to the days when rap was fun and lively?

Now it is all about women,drugs,money,the streets...Nowadays,as long as a song has a good beat,it's considered a hit.No one cares about the lyrics,or the message it is sending.

Rap is a form of music,it's just,fading away...

EDIT: I totally forgot to add in this post that not all rap music is bad.

I rarely listen to rap unles it randomly comes onto the radio or something but usually I can't stand it. The only rap I think is good music is when it's not about druggies, busting caps, and all that stupid, immoral stuff.

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Originally Posted by BakerMan

I rarely listen to rap unles it randomly comes onto the radio or something but usually I can't stand it. The only rap I think is good music is when it's not about druggies, busting caps, and all that stupid, immoral stuff.

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Theres actually more songs thats not about those things than you think.

Rap is music. It is released by companies that make and distribute music. It is written in a musical format. It is intended to be listened to as music.

Music can be made from so many different things. That is why it is so amazing.

Different forms of music are great. Rap is music. Outkast are awesome.

Like many others have stated, rap is music. Let me take glance into my trusty encyclopedia. It says that "music is an art form consisting of organized tones in a coherent sequence of sounds intended to elicit an aesthetic response in a listener".

I gather that lovehurts was trying to say that because lyrics of popular rap is rather crude and usually promotes sex, violence and drugs, rap can't possibly be music. I don't know about that.

Rap songs, are still songs are they not? Music doesn't need nice lyrics to be classified as music. Music is simply sounds put together, it's not how good a message in a song is.

I agree with you, lovehurts, that popular rap of today, specially gangster rap is often promoting the worst messages whilst so gracefully corrupting the minds of children (eheh, adults too) and our language.

But rap is music, and like others have said, not all of it is bad. Before jumping to conclusions and basing opinions on what's popular, check out all areas first. Who said popular music is any good, anyway?

Well.. I like the older stuff better, seeing as I'll randomly listen to Coolio for no apparent reason. But yeah it goes with the definition so yes. :razz:

Rap is good to dance to. I really like Kayne West. He has some good raps. :)

But overall, I think most people in the world would agree that rock music PWNS all.

Rap sucks! Unless it's with bands like Linkin Park or Rage Against the Machine. People like 50 Cent and Jay-Z and Eminem and all the other y rappers just don't know what music is

METAL RULES ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

I've heard that Rap is an acronym for "rhythm and poetry" which if it's true, then no rap isn't music. Because if it was, then stupid beatniks reciting poetry to some bongos would have to be considered music too.

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:laugh: Yes, and no one argues that beatnik freeform is music but it was never so popular either. If it had been you can be sure that there would be claims it was. It is as if by saying it's music they somehow become "legitimate". I just don't see the point. Why not accept what it is and rejoice in it? It's not like it is lessened by not being music, only by how it is expressed. Oh, how popular expression lesses it every year.

Rap is just talking speeded up rediculously. The backround "music" is usually computer generated, and has a girl singing speeded up so it sounds alien.

Rap is pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Zeldy

Rap is just talking speeded up rediculously. The backround "music" is usually computer generated, and has a girl singing speeded up so it sounds alien.

Rap is pathetic.

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Yes, yes it is. Every song sounds exactly the same and usually has to do with the same things too. I wish for a rap saying how ty rappers are like 50 Cent and all his little folk. If rap wasn't made, the music world would still be all.......

METAL!!!!!

Close minded much?

I am not against rap, but I am against 50 cent, Eminem Outkast. All those guys are in it for the money. GRRRRR!!! It pisses me off when people do that. How ever, bands such as, The Fugees, RAtM, The Exocutioners. Those bands I like. So I guess rap is a double sided genre like all music, there is good and there is bad. But thats more than my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Zeldy

Rap is just talking speeded up rediculously

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So is most music...

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Originally Posted by Hsu

Close minded much?

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Not to mention completely ignorant. Oh well, if people want to make themselves look like fools, then so be it.

Hip Hop and Rap is an expression, it's a lifestyle, it's whatever you make of it. You can like it or not, that doesn't matter, it's your personal choice. But to say "rap is just this, blah blah" or "it's RETARDS ATTEMPTING POETRY LOL" is pretty much just dumb. It takes talent and skill just like any other form of expression, and if you tried it you'd most likely suck at it, and suck at it horribly.

Everything has origins and reasons for existing, rap is no different, and though yes today's mainstream rap music is pretty much horrible, it doesn't speak for all rap music that exists, 50 Cent does not represent the entire genre of rap, nor hip hop nor anything else you care to mention, and basing a vastly varied genre such as rap and hiphop on the mainstream is just silly.

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Yes, yes it is. Every song sounds exactly the same and usually has to do with the same things too. I wish for a rap saying how ty rappers are like 50 Cent and all his little folk. If rap wasn't made, the music world would still be all.......

METAL!!!!!

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Yeah, because Metal totally doesn't have thousands of crappy bands that all sound the same with unorignal boring riffs, angsty crap vocals, and utterly e music.

Don't get me wrong, I believe personally that the most talented musicians around today are the ones making Metal, GOOD metal, but the amount of utter crap that comes out of the metal scene makes rap look amazing. Though, seeing as you seem to like Linkin Park I don't think you know what you're talking about anyway.

The majority of rap IMO is horrible, but a few are actually decent. I've not listened to any rap song that goes above average because most of them seem to have the same beat, just with different instruments and lyrics.

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Originally Posted by DK

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Originally Posted by Hsu

Close minded much?

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Not to mention completely ignorant. Oh well, if people want to make themselves look like fools, then so be it.

Hip Hop and Rap is an expression, it's a lifestyle, it's whatever you make of it. You can like it or not, that doesn't matter, it's your personal choice. But to say "rap is just this, blah blah" or "it's RETARDS ATTEMPTING POETRY LOL" is pretty much just dumb. It takes talent and skill just like any other form of expression, and if you tried it you'd most likely suck at it, and suck at it horribly.

Everything has origins and reasons for existing, rap is no different, and though yes today's mainstream rap music is pretty much horrible, it doesn't speak for all rap music that exists, 50 Cent does not represent the entire genre of rap, nor hip hop nor anything else you care to mention, and basing a vastly varied genre such as rap and hiphop on the mainstream is just silly.

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Yes, yes it is. Every song sounds exactly the same and usually has to do with the same things too. I wish for a rap saying how ty rappers are like 50 Cent and all his little folk. If rap wasn't made, the music world would still be all.......

METAL!!!!!

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Yeah, because Metal totally doesn't have thousands of crappy bands that all sound the same with unorignal boring riffs, angsty crap vocals, and utterly e music.

Don't get me wrong, I believe personally that the most talented musicians around today are the ones making Metal, GOOD metal, but the amount of utter crap that comes out of the metal scene makes rap look amazing. Though, seeing as you seem to like Linkin Park I don't think you know what you're talking about anyway.

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LP is not the only thing i like tho, in fact its one of my least favorite bands that i like, compared to everything else like Iron Maiden Metallica, and such.

I personally hate the majority of mainstream rap music. It sounds nothing like singing to me. Not to mention most of the songs are about the same subject. As far as I know, the only good rap worth listening to is underground or anything made before the mid-90's.

Most definetly yes
Rap is another form of blending music with words in a somewhat arguably creative way. As long as it contains some sort of melody even if a little repetitive it still marks down as containing some musical content. A lot of recent raps (certainly not too my taste) are tracks in which the artists pinch a few notes from a popular song, have it played over and over again, slap in a beat and begin incoherently babbling over it. Mind you there have been a few good raps out there but unfortunately the modern-day tasteless versions have overshadowed the genre as a whole resulting in a lot of people branding it as crap

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

I've heard that Rap is an acronym for "rhythm and poetry" which if it's true, then no rap isn't music. Because if it was, then stupid beatniks reciting poetry to some bongos would have to be considered music too.

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:laugh: Yes, and no one argues that beatnik freeform is music but it was never so popular either. If it had been you can be sure that there would be claims it was. It is as if by saying it's music they somehow become "legitimate". I just don't see the point. Why not accept what it is and rejoice in it? It's not like it is lessened by not being music, only by how it is expressed. Oh, how popular expression lesses it every year.

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At least someone acknowledges what I say, sheesh. Hell, even if it isn't music, I listen to some of it. I genuinely like a small portion of rap.

Rap < Classical Music :D

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Originally Posted by Meta-Knight

I personally hate the majority of mainstream rap music. It sounds nothing like singing to me. Not to mention most of the songs are about the same subject. As far as I know, the only good rap worth listening to is underground or anything made before the mid-90's.

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You're just not exposed to alot of it. You probably only hear some of the stuff that's on the radio. Some popular rappers (Common for example) that are really good don't get as much air time as people who are marketed better (50 Cent for example). As with mostly every genre of music...

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Originally Posted by Hambone

Rap < Classical Music :D

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Definitely. Classical music is smurfing awesome.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by Meta-Knight

I personally hate the majority of mainstream rap music. It sounds nothing like singing to me. Not to mention most of the songs are about the same subject. As far as I know, the only good rap worth listening to is underground or anything made before the mid-90's.

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You're just not exposed to alot of it. You probably only hear some of the stuff that's on the radio. Some popular rappers (Common for example) that are really good don't get as much air time as people who are marketed better (50 Cent for example). As with mostly every genre of music...

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Quoted for Truth.

All of the nonsensical gangster rap garbage is being stuffed down your throat while the good rappers are all overshadowed.

Again,not all rap is bad.

Every genre of music has it's ups and downs. The only reason Rap is getting a bad rap... um, no pun intended... is because it's so popular today. The so called rock music with the vocalist wishing his ex-girlfriend were dead, doesn't exactly have the greatest lyrics in the world either.

But you know what, it all sells and us intellectuals will sit here, whine and moan about how terrible it is. It's true, but don't go and say it's not music, because IT IS. Snapping your fingers could be considered as music for god sakes. So why not computer generated beats then?

I'm happy listening to my rock/alternative lovelyness, but this is just dumb and ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

I've heard that Rap is an acronym for "rhythm and poetry" which if it's true, then no rap isn't music. Because if it was, then stupid beatniks reciting poetry to some bongos would have to be considered music too.

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:laugh: Yes, and no one argues that beatnik freeform is music but it was never so popular either. If it had been you can be sure that there would be claims it was. It is as if by saying it's music they somehow become "legitimate". I just don't see the point. Why not accept what it is and rejoice in it? It's not like it is lessened by not being music, only by how it is expressed. Oh, how popular expression lesses it every year.

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At least someone acknowledges what I say, sheesh. Hell, even if it isn't music, I listen to some of it. I genuinely like a small portion of rap.

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Yes, Arianna acknowledges what you say and ignores everyone else who has sense enough to know that: what "music" is can't be contained within a box. Rap is music like it or not/ ignore the fact or not. Music takes a great variety of forms.

If you say rap isn't music, you might as well say Pluto isn't a planet....
uh, oh- wait a minute!!

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Hambone

Rap < Classical Music :D

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Definitely. Classical music is smurfing awesome.

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:beer:

Yes, I consider rap to be music.

And yes, I would rather have my genitals torn off and shoved down my throat than actually listen to it.

well what is better like death metal like NILE, or August Burns red, or bleeding through, i like them cause you can mosh to them you cant like do anything to rap music except dance or somthing make noises.

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Originally Posted by Barbarian

well what is better like death metal like NILE, or August Burns red, or bleeding through, i like them cause you can mosh to them you cant like do anything to rap music except dance or somthing make noises.

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I don't know about August Burns Red, but Bleeding Through is far from death metal.

are you serious man there pretty good why the hell is my sig so small?

is it small now?

EDIT: Please don't double post, and don't post in a thread just to ask questions about your sig. -Murder

I consider the music in rap to be music.

I consider the Lyrics in Rap to be song.

I think this about everysong occassionally changing the genres...

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Originally Posted by Barbarian

are you serious man there pretty good why the hell is my sig so small?

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Which band were you referring to?

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Originally Posted by farplaner

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

I've heard that Rap is an acronym for "rhythm and poetry" which if it's true, then no rap isn't music. Because if it was, then stupid beatniks reciting poetry to some bongos would have to be considered music too.

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:laugh: Yes, and no one argues that beatnik freeform is music but it was never so popular either. If it had been you can be sure that there would be claims it was. It is as if by saying it's music they somehow become "legitimate". I just don't see the point. Why not accept what it is and rejoice in it? It's not like it is lessened by not being music, only by how it is expressed. Oh, how popular expression lesses it every year.

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At least someone acknowledges what I say, sheesh. Hell, even if it isn't music, I listen to some of it. I genuinely like a small portion of rap.

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Yes, Arianna acknowledges what you say and ignores everyone else who has sense enough to know that: what "music" is can't be contained within a box. Rap is music like it or not/ ignore the fact or not. Music takes a great variety of forms.

If you say rap isn't music, you might as well say Pluto isn't a planet....
uh, oh- wait a minute!!

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:laugh: Not ignore, dissagree.

I used to believe Rap was music. Then I was exposed to real music and discovered just how insufficient Rap was. I became educated on the subject. :holmes:

I also learned the beauty of language. It has meaning and nuance. The culture who creates it defines it. So yes, music has a definition (your box) and yes, it takes many forms.

So I'll just recap; Rap can be used to make music but by itself is not music.


@farplaner: A lady does not reveal her age and a gentleman does not ask. ;)

what rap?

some is and some isn't....according to me anyway

it depends on your definition

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

I used to believe Rap was music. Then I was exposed to real music and discovered just how insufficient Rap was. I became educated on the subject. :holmes:

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How did you become educated if you still believe rap isn't music?

rap is music i like rap :P its not like my favourite genre and sometimes it really can annoy me but.. metal is better :P a jrock :)

u beat me to this thread! no rap isn’t music you don’t need to be able to sing a note to rap its rhyming the background music is music obviously but real music is rock bands e.g. Oasis and professional soloists like Michael Buble or Katie Melua they don’t have to wear bling and make out their gangsters when most of that is just p are anyway and worry about how many times they have been shot.

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

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Originally Posted by farplaner

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

I've heard that Rap is an acronym for "rhythm and poetry" which if it's true, then no rap isn't music. Because if it was, then stupid beatniks reciting poetry to some bongos would have to be considered music too.

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:laugh: Yes, and no one argues that beatnik freeform is music but it was never so popular either. If it had been you can be sure that there would be claims it was. It is as if by saying it's music they somehow become "legitimate". I just don't see the point. Why not accept what it is and rejoice in it? It's not like it is lessened by not being music, only by how it is expressed. Oh, how popular expression lesses it every year.

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At least someone acknowledges what I say, sheesh. Hell, even if it isn't music, I listen to some of it. I genuinely like a small portion of rap.

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Yes, Arianna acknowledges what you say and ignores everyone else who has sense enough to know that: what "music" is can't be contained within a box. Rap is music like it or not/ ignore the fact or not. Music takes a great variety of forms.

If you say rap isn't music, you might as well say Pluto isn't a planet....
uh, oh- wait a minute!!

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:laugh: Not ignore, dissagree.

I used to believe Rap was music. Then I was exposed to real music and discovered just how insufficient Rap was. I became educated on the subject. :holmes:

I also learned the beauty of language. It has meaning and nuance. The culture who creates it defines it. So yes, music has a definition (your box) and yes, it takes many forms.

So I'll just recap; Rap can be used to make music but by itself is not music.


@farplaner: A lady does not reveal her age and a gentleman does not ask. ;)

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I like you. :D

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

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Originally Posted by farplaner

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

I've heard that Rap is an acronym for "rhythm and poetry" which if it's true, then no rap isn't music. Because if it was, then stupid beatniks reciting poetry to some bongos would have to be considered music too.

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:laugh: Yes, and no one argues that beatnik freeform is music but it was never so popular either. If it had been you can be sure that there would be claims it was. It is as if by saying it's music they somehow become "legitimate". I just don't see the point. Why not accept what it is and rejoice in it? It's not like it is lessened by not being music, only by how it is expressed. Oh, how popular expression lesses it every year.

---

At least someone acknowledges what I say, sheesh. Hell, even if it isn't music, I listen to some of it. I genuinely like a small portion of rap.

---

Yes, Arianna acknowledges what you say and ignores everyone else who has sense enough to know that: what "music" is can't be contained within a box. Rap is music like it or not/ ignore the fact or not. Music takes a great variety of forms.

If you say rap isn't music, you might as well say Pluto isn't a planet....
uh, oh- wait a minute!!

---

:laugh: Not ignore, dissagree.

I used to believe Rap was music. Then I was exposed to real music and discovered just how insufficient Rap was. I became educated on the subject. :holmes:

I also learned the beauty of language. It has meaning and nuance. The culture who creates it defines it. So yes, music has a definition (your box) and yes, it takes many forms.

So I'll just recap; Rap can be used to make music but by itself is not music.


@farplaner: A lady does not reveal her age and a gentleman does not ask. ;)

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I like you. :D

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She's very smart and very taken.

phepp... returner scum!

Hip Hop = music.
Rap = a sort of rythmical talking.

That being said, I don't really like either. It's got to have funny lyrics if I'm going to like it. "hoe bitch nigga" won't cut it.

I don't mind old-school rap with minimal swearing and legible lyrics. However, you have to admit that it takes a certain talent to do modern rap (i.e. talking fast).

This thread is ridiculous! How can you say what is and isn't music, you have no right. Just because you listen to "real music" (wtf does that mean anyway?) doesn't give you a right. Jezzum Christmas, people.

I listen to a lot of strange stuff (noise, ambient blahblahblah), but I still consider it music. It's pushing boundaries, it's weird, it doesn't hold much in it, you can't rock out to it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't music. That type of music or sound quirks my interest, it's inspriring for me, therefore I think it is music for me. I've always seen music as an emotion, sure there's a ton of crap out there, but people listen to it, and people ENJOY it, people can relate, people can get an emotion from it, people enjoy/have love for what I call crap. Music is just like television, sports, and etc., it can be treated as entetainment. Basically, it means a lot of diffrent things for different people.

Music is constantly changing. Mainstream rap has undergone an amazing change, or maybe it's audience has, or maybe... I don't know. All I know is that people like it for various reasons, and you telling them that Iron Maiden is ten times better isn't going to do much. I know it hasn't for me, it's just made want to beat myself over the head repeatedly with something heavy. Let them enjoy it if they enjoy it.

I tried my best not repeat some people, since a lot of really intellingent things have been said already (see: DK, Shiny, El Bandito to namedrop). Sorry. ;o

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Originally Posted by Aurey

This thread is ridiculous! How can you say what is and isn't music, you have no right. Just because you listen to "real music" (wtf does that mean anyway?) doesn't give you a right. Jezzum Christmas, people. Are you that close minded?

I listen to a lot of strange stuff (noise, ambient blahblahblah), but I still consider it music. It's pushing boundaries, it's weird, it doesn't hold much in it, you can't rock out to it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't music. That type of music or sound quirks my interest, it's inspriring for me, therefore I think it is music for me. I've always seen music as an emotion, sure there's a ton of crap out there, but people listen to it, and people ENJOY it, people can relate, people can get an emotion from it, people enjoy/have love for what I call crap. Music is just like television, sports, and etc., it can be treated as entetainment. Basically, it means a lot of diffrent things for different people.

Music is constantly changing. Mainstream rap has undergone an amazing change, or maybe it's audience has, or maybe... I don't know. All I know is that people like it for various reasons, and you telling them that Iron Maiden is ten times better isn't going to do much. I know it hasn't for me, it's just made want to beat myself over the head repeatedly with something heavy. Let them enjoy it if they enjoy it.

I tried my best not repeat some people, since a lot of really intellingent things have been said already (see: DK, Shiny, El Bandito to namedrop). Sorry. ;o

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Well if you want to be open minded about peoples opinions then you cant call those opinions close minded.;)

See there's the whole conversation thing you established after that remark. I obviously was open minded enough with this thread to reach out or appeal to you. Just because I think differently it doesnt make me closed minded. Any way about it calling me closed minded for an opinion that I never stated as fact and never pleaded for everyone to agree with it is ....well um closed minded. ;)

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

I used to believe Rap was music. Then I was exposed to real music and discovered just how insufficient Rap was. I became educated on the subject. :holmes:

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How did you become educated if you still believe rap isn't music?

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:lol:

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Originally Posted by Aurey

This thread is ridiculous! How can you say what is and isn't music, you have no right. Just because you listen to "real music" (wtf does that mean anyway?) doesn't give you a right. Jezzum Christmas, people. Are you that close minded?

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

@farplaner: A lady does not reveal her age and a gentleman does not ask.

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I never asked for your age. ;) And who said I was a gentleman, anyway? ;) ;)

I think Aurey has a point though. You obviously didn't check out the genre enough. It's quite clear that all rap is music, (although that is my opinion). What you tried to say was that because the lyrics are bad in "gangsta", it automatically makes rap not music. Some rap is good, and promotes good messages.

But gangsta rap is still much nontheless.

Well, if we need to get into a debate about what is and isnt music....

Any form of wavelength, sound sequence or wave pattern that has any form of rythum or melody in it is technically considered music. Someone singing is music, someone tapping on a table this thier fingers is music, someone playing the pots and pans is music. So basically, thier is music all around, everywhere. Just because something is bad doesnt mean it isn't music.

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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Originally Posted by chrisfffan

rap isn’t music you don’t need to be able to sing a note to rap

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Rap and singing aren't the same thing.Rap is still music though.

If you think that rap music is just fast talking,then some rock music is just screaming

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Hip Hop = music.
Rap = a sort of rythmical talking.

That being said, I don't really like either. It's got to have funny lyrics if I'm going to like it. "hoe bitch nigga" won't cut it.

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*Applause*
I love hip-hop much more than rap.it is something I can really dance to whereas rap isn't...IMO

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

I used to believe Rap was music. Then I was exposed to real music and discovered just how insufficient Rap was. I became educated on the subject. :holmes:

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How did you become educated if you still believe rap isn't music?

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XD

Shiny got you there!

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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Sorry dude, I didn't mean to cause offence, just stating a fact.

Rap itself isn't music, it's a singing in a rap thingy.... When you rap with music in the background you can consider it hip hop or rap music. Rapping is a style of singing aswell as a type of music... I'm not too sure on all this... I went off rap 4 years ago and even then I wasn't a huge fan.

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply ever respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has ttried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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:confused: Arrianna (for one) did offer a definition of music, and when someone says something that, in my mind, is the equivelant of saying "Sci-fi/romance/mystery novels aren't literature." I can't help but voice my disagreement. Of course people can have different opinions and feelings, I don't think anyone is denying that...

Sorry, Arrianna, if it seems like I'm picking on you. ;)

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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But you can't say it isn't music, because it is. Music has a freaking definition, it's not really a matter of opinion. It's like saying Kool-Aid isn't a liquid because you hate it.

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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But you can't say it isn't music, because it is. Music has a freaking definition, it's not really a matter of opinion. It's like saying Kool-Aid isn't a liquid because you hate it.

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Definitons only matter if you care what most people think about it. Personally I dont care and I love being different and an individual I wasnt calling it music simply because I didnt like it so I DISOWNED IT AS MUSIc.

To alot of you it may be music and if you pull out a dictionary you may tell me it is music and I would agree with you that according to a book worm and an educated or knowledgefull person that it may be music.

But to insult it , to disown it and to say that I totaallly couldnt care less about it I said it wasnt music....this is an interesting concept but I pray that some one gets it....

To err clear things up I consider rapping to bea crap form of singing unless it is singing some random techno-like music in the background. Then it's music of some sort. Yeah it sucks but it can be music and it can't. W/e.I'm a metalhead so ehhhhh...

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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But you can't say it isn't music, because it is. Music has a freaking definition, it's not really a matter of opinion. It's like saying Kool-Aid isn't a liquid because you hate it.

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To alot of you it may be music and if you pull out a dictionary you may tell me it is music and I would agree with you that according to a book worm and an educated or knowledgefull person that it may be music.

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So you're telling me that you want to be ignorant and not a "educated person" and say it isn't music because you don't like it.

That's being closed minded right there honey.

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Originally Posted by Shoden

To err clear things up I consider rapping to bea crap form of singing unless it is singing some random techno-like music in the background. Then it's music of some sort. Yeah it sucks but it can be music and it can't. W/e.I'm a metalhead so ehhhhh...

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Well, based on that logic some metal must be music and some may not. I think it all boils down to if you are willing to accept the fact that rap and the Hip Hop culture is very popular and has been for years now. There are people who are open-minded to all different genres and they can appreciate some artists from each. And those people are able to understand the fact that music doesn't always have to be something they enjoy experiencing, or something they are familiar with.

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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But you can't say it isn't music, because it is. Music has a freaking definition, it's not really a matter of opinion. It's like saying Kool-Aid isn't a liquid because you hate it.

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To alot of you it may be music and if you pull out a dictionary you may tell me it is music and I would agree with you that according to a book worm and an educated or knowledgefull person that it may be music.

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So you're telling me that you want to be ignorant and not a "educated person" and say it isn't music because you don't like it.

That's being closed minded right there honey.

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When is an opinion baised on strong feelings ignorant . One may say that it is perrfectally naturall. People often exzarate things when they feel strongly about them wouldnt you say so. It is socially correct to exzarate when you feel strongly about something . That is all that I have done here. I never disputted what music is or what the definiton is rather . But I simply stated that I dont consdier rap music. Some poeple may feel strongly enough about disowning or disliking rap as me to say the same thing. There is nothing closed minded about it and I think even using the words close minded makes the person more closed minded than the person they are saying it to. I may be a little quilty there though.


As a matter of fact some people did feel strongly enough about disliking rap as I did to disown it as I did and to say it wasnt music due to there strong feelings and exzarations.

Its called an exzaration due to strong feelings. It socially happens all the time. Im just not the sort of person to un-creatively and boringly look at the definitions on webster and to give a boring dull narrow view of what most people consider music. So if you want to have an intelligent conversation with me you'll have to put more effort into it.


I already stated how strongly i feel about disowning rap and my feelings would be obvious to a chimp. So maybe you can realize that I exzarated due to strong feelings of not liking rap and you could question why I dont like it instead of boringly and dully looking at an web sites definition....

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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But you can't say it isn't music, because it is. Music has a freaking definition, it's not really a matter of opinion. It's like saying Kool-Aid isn't a liquid because you hate it.

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To alot of you it may be music and if you pull out a dictionary you may tell me it is music and I would agree with you that according to a book worm and an educated or knowledgefull person that it may be music.

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So you're telling me that you want to be ignorant and not a "educated person" and say it isn't music because you don't like it.

That's being closed minded right there honey.

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When is an opinion baised on strong feelings ignorant . One may say that it is perrfectally naturall. People often exzarate things when they feel strongly about them wouldnt you say so. It is socially correct to exzarate when you feel strongly about something . That is all that I have done here. I never disputted what music is or what the definiton is rather . But I simply stated that I dont consdier rap music. Some poeple may feel strongly enough about disowning or disliking rap as me to say the same thing. There is nothing closed minded about it and I think even using the word close minded makes the person more closed minded than the person they are saying it to. I may be a little quilty there though.


As a matter of fact some people did feel strongly enough about disliking rap as I did to disown it as I did and to say it wasnt music due to there strong feelings and exzarations.

Its called an exzaration due to strong feelings. It socially happens all the time. Im just not the sort of person to un-creatively and boringly look at the definitions on webster and to give a boring dull narrow view of what most people consider music. So if you want to have an intelligent conversation with me you'll have to put more effort into it.


I already stated how strongly i feel about disowning rap and my feelings would be obvious to a chimp. So maybe you can realize that I exzarated due to strong feelings of not liking rap and you could question why I dont like it instead of boringly and dully looking at an web sites definition....

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I understand that you have your strong negative feelings about rap music. Humans exaggerate all the time, feelings can be overwhelming and we say things like, "I hate rap, so it isn't music." I might've said that too to myself when watching a 50 Cent video, but it's not like I meant it. It was said out of anger, out of passionate feelings which led me to exaggerate. But, I know it's not fact.

You tried to start a debate over your feelings about something, without backing it up with facts. We're going to go in circles because of it. People will say if you think Rap isn't music, let's look up the definition of music, (I for one looked in my own encyclopedia of which isn't on the internet). We found that yes, Rap is music. It's the damn truth, and we all understand your feelings about, and most of us feel the same or similarly to you.

But don't try to say that inFACT rap isn't music, because it does make you look ignorant whether you want it to or not. I honestly do understand where you're coming from, though. What was your purpose in starting this thread, to discuss it like a debate or just to say your opinion of rap?

This place needs some mary jane and some buckets. WOOOO!! YEA!!:D

Also, rap is a form of music. It really is. You are using your voice to create rythum with your words. Rythum = A important factor witch makes up music. Without rythum, timing, tempo, BPM, metranomes, drums, singers you can kiss music goodbye. Again, just stating a FACT. I could get really techincal, but I really cant be smurfed.

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

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Originally Posted by feona17

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

This thread isnt necessarly about what is music by definition. It is a thread full of many humans
Many personalities
Many opinions

People simply are stating what they consider to be music , people could care less about the definition of music and simply can respect rap as music or choose to disown it. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND FEELINGS!!!! No one has tried to change anyones mind here or force there views on another.....;)

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But you can't say it isn't music, because it is. Music has a freaking definition, it's not really a matter of opinion. It's like saying Kool-Aid isn't a liquid because you hate it.

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To alot of you it may be music and if you pull out a dictionary you may tell me it is music and I would agree with you that according to a book worm and an educated or knowledgefull person that it may be music.

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So you're telling me that you want to be ignorant and not a "educated person" and say it isn't music because you don't like it.

That's being closed minded right there honey.

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When is an opinion baised on strong feelings ignorant . One may say that it is perrfectally naturall. People often exzarate things when they feel strongly about them wouldnt you say so. It is socially correct to exzarate when you feel strongly about something . That is all that I have done here. I never disputted what music is or what the definiton is rather . But I simply stated that I dont consdier rap music. Some poeple may feel strongly enough about disowning or disliking rap as me to say the same thing. There is nothing closed minded about it and I think even using the word close minded makes the person more closed minded than the person they are saying it to. I may be a little quilty there though.


As a matter of fact some people did feel strongly enough about disliking rap as I did to disown it as I did and to say it wasnt music due to there strong feelings and exzarations.

Its called an exzaration due to strong feelings. It socially happens all the time. Im just not the sort of person to un-creatively and boringly look at the definitions on webster and to give a boring dull narrow view of what most people consider music. So if you want to have an intelligent conversation with me you'll have to put more effort into it.


I already stated how strongly i feel about disowning rap and my feelings would be obvious to a chimp. So maybe you can realize that I exzarated due to strong feelings of not liking rap and you could question why I dont like it instead of boringly and dully looking at an web sites definition....

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I understand that you have your strong negative feelings about rap music. Humans exaggerate all the time, feelings can be overwhelming and we say things like, "I hate rap, so it isn't music." I might've said that too to myself when watching a 50 Cent video, but it's not like I meant it. It was said out of anger, out of passionate feelings which led me to exaggerate. But, I know it's not fact.

You tried to start a debate over your feelings about something, without backing it up with facts. We're going to go in circles because of it. People will say if you think Rap isn't music, let's look up the definition of music, (I for one looked in my own encyclopedia of which isn't on the internet). We found that yes, Rap is music. It's the damn truth, and we all understand your feelings about, and most of us feel the same or similarly to you.

But don't try to say that inFACT rap isn't music, because it does make you look ignorant whether you want it to or not. I honestly do understand where you're coming from, though. What was your purpose in starting this thread, to discuss it like a debate or just to say your opinion of rap?

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People like you make this thread. People like me make this thread. I made a post saying how I feelt and in fact it was debating for several pages. Yet it is still going on. How you call me ignorant actually is appreciated. Do you know why it is appreciated?

Because when you call me ignorant it shows me that you have given me a little bite. A little agression. This is a good thing but do you know why?

Because it tells me that you feel strongly about it the other way and I am open minded enough to hear you out and to consider some of your points when you care about what you are talking about.

When you strongly disagree with me I am actually honored that you post. Because when you share what you feel strongly about it shows me that you take your time in posting. It demands for me to use a little more effort to reply to you.

A complete post in a disagreement should be personall.

So what could be better than to make a 1st dramatic and overly personall post for a thread? Do you understand ? Prehaps if this went on for another 4 pages you would....

YAY FOR TEDDIES!!!:love:

Lets all kiss and make up, go on, kissy-kissy.:love: If not I will actually find everyone and eat all of your food in the fridge so you will have to go out and buy more. MWAHAHAHAHA!!!:mwahaha:

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Originally Posted by lovehurts

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

I like you. :D

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She's very smart and very taken.

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Shucks. But that's really not what I meant. :p

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Originally Posted by farplaner

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Originally Posted by I Am Stoner

YAY FOR TEDDIES!!!:love:

Lets all kiss and make up, go on, kissy-kissy.:love: If not I will actually find everyone and eat all of your food in the fridge so you will have to go out and buy more. MWAHAHAHAHA!!!:mwahaha:

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*Feels sorry for Stoner.

Some of the stuff in my fridge defies all logic, sensibility, and FDA regulations.

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Ahh its all good. Mmmmmm..... Food poisoining. Just get me stoned i'll eat anything.

BUT I think we are all agreed on one fact right?

Without music the world would suck.

There is hardly a rap song I will respect. Not because its rap, but because its main representatives are pig headed isotaric idiots. I don't care if you use the n word in 10 different ways and can flash a real gun on TV so long as you are shooting on a set located in a place where you are in legal concordance doing so. Rapping about being a badass via demoralization, oprresion, dehumaitzation, violence, slander, and sexual obtucenss is nothing to be considered anything worth considering. The general growth of rap goes directly against my beleifs, and against most bleifs that strive for a healthy society. Unfortunately, this minor branch of rap has been commercialised and bastardised the whole thoery of rap. Hip hop.. whatever. I am not hatin the game, I am hatein the playa's.

Rap is Crap. Simple enough.

Bipper

You've only heard a few rap songs then, bipper, because most of the rap I listen to is not about negative things like that at all. Why is that people act like rap is the only genre of music that has all those negative things in them? I'm pretty sure rock is notorious for it.

Bipper: Then what did Jurrasic 5 do? They never said any of that stuff. They were in it for the music. They were legends, just listen to thier tracks man, so rythmical and funky. Also they rapped about freedom and love. Not death and gangstas.

The bigger question is whether we consider country to be music.

Some rap is fine. It's funny if you catch the lyrics, but some rap is just dreadful. Eminem is funny rap; Beastie Boys is funny rap. Artists like 50 Cent are just annoying.

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Originally Posted by I Am Stoner

Bipper: Then what did Jurrasic 5 do? They never said any of that stuff. They were in it for the music. They were legends, just listen to thier tracks man, so rythmical and funky. Also they rapped about freedom and love. Not death and gangstas.

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And thier commercial influence is nil. That is , when you compare it to fiddy sent etc. ewe. A community is responsable for its social politics. Jurasic 5 could have done more to promote a posative image. If they fail, like they did, rap fails.

I am basing an all but conclusive opinion on a broad gender. Naturally there will be good stuff, like eminem can be, and Beastie boys. The truth of the matter is, my exposure will be limited mostly do boom boom wiggy wiggy uuuuuuuuuuungh Masta pimp make you say ungggggggggggggh.

How is it rap's fault that America digs the stereotypical demeaning tripe on the radio? People will do and say anything to make a couple million bucks.

In Canada, this rapper K-OS is extremely popular and he completely goes against the generic rapper shell. His stuff is really refreshing and the public really digs it.

Even in the current US's mainstream there are artists who DO sell and manage to be unique. Maybe you've heard of Kanye West or Common?

I can't imagine how a current fad in music can completely disavow an entire genre.

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Originally Posted by El Bandito

How is it rap's fault that America digs the stereotypical demeaning tripe on the radio? People will do and say anything to make a couple million bucks.

In Canada, this rapper K-OS is extremely popular and he completely goes against the generic rapper shell. His stuff is really refreshing and the public really digs it.

Even in the current US's mainstream there are artists who DO sell and manage to be unique. Maybe you've heard of Kanye West or Common?

I can't imagine how a current fad in music can completely disavow an entire genre.

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I love you. And, I love K-OS, his music is really catchy and the lyrics are pretty darn good.

RAP itself is hardly a legal entity and the blame cannot be put on such an abstract label. The word rap iself is subject to the individual's exposure, and unfortuneatly, that expouser is usually 'ghetto ghetto boom boom'. I know I do not blame all rappers, but my subjective label of rap, at least the enteties that entails, are to blame.

It also seems that the people who are raised into this music are often children, whose minds are usually underdeveloped and filled with adolecence. Like Hard Rock for the generation prior, I would be willing to bet it got popular because of it's tabbo.

Bipper

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Originally Posted by bipper

It also seems that the people who are raised into this music are often children, whose minds are usually underdeveloped and filled with adolecence.

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Oh, so because people like rap they must be stupid. :rolleyes2 I find that highly offensive and there is no proof to that what so ever.

Yeah bipper, where do you get off saying a thing like that? Really it depends on the person, and whether or not they are able to read between the lines and be media literate. My brother grew up listening to rap, the good kind mind you, before all this gangsta rap came into play and he's one of the smartest people I know. Also, I know a lot of people who listen to "gangsta" rap who are around my age, and they're fine. They're not getting knocked up or, or doing drugs or hurting other people. Nor are they any less intelligent.

Way to completely misinterpret what he said.

It's rather easy to misinterpret what someone is saying, especially online.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by bipper

It also seems that the people who are raised into this music are often children, whose minds are usually underdeveloped and filled with adolecence.

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Oh, so because people like rap they must be stupid. :rolleyes2 I find that highly offensive and there is no proof to that what so ever.

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OUCH! THE FURY!

Well, I am sorry to slap you with science but it is a proven fact. Srsly though, I am saying it seems to be an outlet for children whose brains are (scientifically) under developed (as everyones brain is, especially under age:24) and their systems are full of adolecense and a surge of hormones that cause them to.... need an outlet of sorts. Taboo or no, violence, sex, etc all have an immediate subliminal appeal to the human brain.

Bipper

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Originally Posted by bipper

OUCH! THE FURY!

Well, I am sorry to slap you with science but it is a proven fact. Srsly though, I am saying it seems to be an outlet for children whose brains are (scientifically) under developed (as everyones brain is, especially under age:24) and their systems are full of adolecense and a surge of hormones that cause them to.... need an outlet of sorts. Taboo or no, violence, sex, etc all have an immediate subliminal appeal to the human brain.

Bipper

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You say it's a proven fact, yet you haven't given any evidence to prove your claim. Also, I know from experience (which is alot more than wikipedia can say) about people who listen to rap. And most of them are some of the most intellegent people (with developed minds) who are very open-minded to music in general. I'm sure music does not define someone's intellegence it is just a preference. And as explained several times before, not all rap includes violent, or sexual lyrics/images.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by bipper

OUCH! THE FURY!

Well, I am sorry to slap you with science but it is a proven fact. Srsly though, I am saying it seems to be an outlet for children whose brains are (scientifically) under developed (as everyones brain is, especially under age:24) and their systems are full of adolecense and a surge of hormones that cause them to.... need an outlet of sorts. Taboo or no, violence, sex, etc all have an immediate subliminal appeal to the human brain.

Bipper

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You say it's a proven fact, yet you haven't given any evidence to prove your claim. Also, I know from experience (which is alot more than wikipedia can say) about people who listen to rap. And most of them are some of the most intellegent people (with developed minds) who are very open-minded to music in general. I'm sure music does not define someone's intellegence it is just a preference. And as explained several times before, not all rap includes violent, or sexual lyrics/images.

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What you call scientifically developed is a farse, unless of course you say thier frontal lobes, notibly the slowest developing part of the brain, are formed yet? Honestly. It is a common excepted fact. You can search the net all your life and you will find this information is commonly supported linkage.

Also, you are not attacking any of my points. I never said that people who listen to rap are doomed to be retarded. I never said that all rap is bad [content wise]; just that which gets the most exposure.

If you want to debate the points; debate what I say. I know of a lot of people whom listened to rap, and in my experience all but one are not on drugs, and 4 of em are smurfing dead from drug deals now. This evidence is circumstantial, and I do not use it. Also, for demanding evidence, I find it funny that you used personal and unbacked evidence yourself.

Now, I am not trying to be a jerk or a dick. I am just rebutting. Plz don't take any critiques or rebuttles personalyl :love:

Bipper

Well yeah, as I mentioned, the rap you think of indeed is a fad. Just like Boy Bands and Disco, the demographic you mentioned are the prime buyers of music so once they start on a new fad, the record companies jump on it and you see the explosion of such a phenomenon like the majority of today's rap.

However, just because this is the modern interpretation, I still don't think it's gone far enough to completely turn the term "rap" into a demeaning term. It's too general a term to be affected. I'm still able to associate bands like Black Flag or The Ramones with the term "punk" without thinking of the whiny, pop-punk bands like Good Charlotte who abused the term during their fad's reign. I believe rap will be able to survive the likes of Fiddy.

By "completely turn the term rap" you are suggesting that its denotation changes to thugishe gangsta rap. This is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting, based off common observance and interpetation of rap, that it has recieved the connotation of being negative and based on gangsta drama.

bipper

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Originally Posted by bipper

By "completely turn the term rap" you are suggesting that its denotation changes to thugishe gangsta rap. This is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting, based off common observance and interpetation of rap, that it has recieved the connotation of being negative and based on gangsta drama.

bipper

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Your common observance is probably very sparse as you've mostly spoken of gansta rap and negative rap. Although it's true that it does exist in the rap community that does not mean it influences it a large deal. Just like with rock and other genres you will have artists who tend to go for a more violent, or suggestive image for the shock factor of it all. I suggest observing rap and the hip hop culture more and you will begin to see the truth.

Well, I'm just saying it's a connotation that you can't put the blame on the entire rap industry for. The public can think what they want, but there are many artists in rap who are tired of the entire "gangsta nigga" culture. The fact the majority of society tend to only focus on the bad can't be helped by artists trying desperately to break such stereotypes.

To sum it up, I'd say this connotation has the same truth as people who think metal is just full of satanists.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

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Originally Posted by bipper

By "completely turn the term rap" you are suggesting that its denotation changes to thugishe gangsta rap. This is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting, based off common observance and interpetation of rap, that it has recieved the connotation of being negative and based on gangsta drama.

bipper

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Your common observance is probably very sparse as you've mostly spoken of gansta rap and negative rap. Although it's true that it does exist in the rap community that does not mean it influences it a large deal. Just like with rock and other genres you will have artists who tend to go for a more violent, or suggestive image for the shock factor of it all. I suggest observing rap and the hip hop culture more and you will begin to see the truth.

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I would not think it is a question of what I observe, but the whole ad pun of rap. Culturally, it still finds itself as being gangsta, and it will prolly be that way for a long while. Much like it is supposed that all goths are this group and all hippies do this.... It is just stuck with a common negative connotation. No biggie though. Rock managed to outlive its satanic devil worshiping connotation. Prehapse there is hope for rap yet.

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To sum it up, I'd say this connotation has the same truth as people who think metal is just full of satanists.

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I completely agree with this comparison.
Bipper

mind u i said rap isnt real music but the 2 songs i like are coolios gangsters paradise and eminem stan.

The Gangsta Rap is crap.That is true it is nothing but hoe this nigga that but there is rap that is not like that.in hollywood there are people that pass out cds for like 5 bucks.it usally isnt violent are anything but listen to that and you might see the diffrence.....well that might be bad to but somewhere out there there our people who give a positive message and even some mainstream artists do that.i used to think that all rock was people going ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh whaaaaaaaarrrrrrr and just screaming why woulda wanna listen to something like that but of course it all isnt like that.it is kinda the same image that rap is given out right now.


Well that is my opinion on all this and yes i think rap is music.

"IF YOU LIKE RAP DONT COME IN HERE"? What kind of ignorant head says that?

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Originally Posted by Neel Hates Clout's Guts

"IF YOU LIKE RAP DONT COME IN HERE"? What kind of ignorant head says that?

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Someone who doesn't want people to blindy speak because of their bias.

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Neel Hates Clout's Guts

"IF YOU LIKE RAP DONT COME IN HERE"? What kind of ignorant head says that?

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Someone who doesn't want people to blindy speak because of their bias.

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So everyone else can speak blindly in their bias against rap? Yeah, well done.

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Originally Posted by DK

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Neel Hates Clout's Guts

"IF YOU LIKE RAP DONT COME IN HERE"? What kind of ignorant http://forums.eyesonff.com/xxx.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/xxx.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/xxx.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/xxx.gifhead says that?

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Someone who doesn't want people to blindy speak because of their bias.

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So everyone else can speak blindly in their bias against rap? Yeah, well done.

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To be honest, that is exactly what I just thought. You need Both opinions to have a good debate going.

Now this is what I call rap music.

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Originally Posted by themagicroundabout

Now this is what I call rap music.

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You are the biggest legend in the entire world for posting that. It made me laugh so hard.

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Originally Posted by themagicroundabout

Now this is what I call rap music.

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THAT WAS RAW!!!

:laugh: I get sick for a few days and someone brings in pokeman! :laugh:

No worries Farplaner, I don't feel picked on. ;)



It does seem that people aren't paying attention to what I actually said and are jumping to two conclusions.

1) I don't like rap

2) I don't know what I'm talking about.


so


1) I like rap, I hate gangsta rap and obsenities. Since the only artist I've found that don't employ at least one of those currently is Fresh Prince I just don't listen anymore.

2) Here's your education. ;)

It has been pointed out that if you go to a dictionary you will find "rap music" defined as music. What is being failed to be mentioned is that "rap music" (quotes intended) is considered synonymous/identical with Hip-hop. If you can find a breakdown of the musical elements of Hip-hop (I found a really great one once but can't seem to find it again, anyone?) they will give you a breakdown of the style from the 4/4 beat to the backbeat to the swing. It will also mention optional elements like "scratching" and rap/"beatbox".

Now interestingly the word rap's original meaning was "to speak sharply" and rap is a synonym for "rhythm and poetry". If you take Hip-hop music and lay sharply spoken rhythem and or poetry over it then you have "rap music". Why the quotations? Because in the music world it is still Hip-hop music it is just Hip-hop with rap.

As such rap is not music anymore then spoken poetry in Æ¿æƒ2's example of beatnicks is music. It is spoken poetry. That's it. Since not all rap is cut to Hip-hop music I don't consider it to be music unless the Hip-hop music is present. Period.

And to back me up Public Enemy's Chuck D:
How Copyright Law Changed Hip Hop

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Chuck D: Sampling basically comes from the fact that rap music is not music. It's rap over music.

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Originally Posted by Neel Hates Clout's Guts

"IF YOU LIKE RAP DONT COME IN HERE"? What kind of ignorant head says that?

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I didnt think the thread was worth your frustrattion and anger. So I figured that if you did like rap it would be best you stayed out of the conversation..So yes I could get the response I wanted and to hate rap amongst fellow haters. I didnt want to read your hate text. I just wanted to hate.

Its kind of like when there's a girls only thread and then a guy enters....

Or it's like you walking into a concert that you really didnt want to go to and sitting threw the horrible music anyways and then complaining about it....

I just dont get you people. Im not ignorant you are just ....well I wont say.

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Originally Posted by themagicroundabout

Now this is what I call rap music.

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Brilliant.

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Originally Posted by themagicroundabout

Now this is what I call rap music.

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:love: :love:, but Lazy Sunday is still better.

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Originally Posted by DK

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Originally Posted by Æ¿æƒ2

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Originally Posted by Neel Hates Clout's Guts

"IF YOU LIKE RAP DONT COME IN HERE"? What kind of ignorant head says that?

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Someone who doesn't want people to blindy speak because of their bias.

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So everyone else can speak blindly in their bias against rap? Yeah, well done.

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Pretty much. :cool:

Raps awesome, but sometimes its abused to boreing music.

ive wrote some lyrics, check out at writers corner, :D

I'd like to think myself unbiased on the subject of music (I listen to everything).

Rap is music. And there is talent in it.

Can you, Lady lovehurts, "spit" a five-versed rhyme at the drop of a hat? Can you make it sound good?

In some forms of rock, you have a singer that screams incomprehensible gibberish into a microphone - and is applauded. Ever heard of Cradle of Filth, or Slipnot? Linkin Park was an interesting mix of rock and rap; very interesting, indeed. Fall Out Boy made millions, and his vocal talent is zilch, if you compare. Have you ever heard of PANIC! @ the Disco? They sing-speak most of their lyrics.

And if it's the quality (that is, the nature of the lyrics), then, m'dear, there is absolutely no difference.

Rap, Rock, Country, and everything in between have one common ground - and that is, that every single genre has its share of "naughty" lyrics.

EXAMPLES:

• "You wanna f**k me like an animal!" Limp Bizkit, Hot Dog (also, I believe that was taken from a song by Nirvana.)
• "... as I tried to tell your dad it was your mouth that I was kissin'!" Nickelback, Animals.
• "I wanna f**k you in the a**!" (I forgot their name, but it's a rap/club song)

I could go on forever, but my point is - all forms of rhythm and sound is music; life, itself, is a musical.

You just need to have an ear for these things.

On a closing note, may I add... that if some people can call what they sing music (and I have heard some TERRIBLE voices in my day), then they have absolutely NO right on degrading anyone else their musical aptitude.

That is all.

Have a great day ^_^

I dissaprove of almost all rap.

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Originally Posted by salvaje

Rap is music. And there is talent in it.

In some forms of rock, you have a singer that screams incomprehensible gibberish into a microphone - and is applauded. Ever heard of Cradle of Filth, or Slipknot?

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Just because there is talent in it, does not make it music. Beat poetry has some talent in it, is that music too?

Also, firstly, even the harshest of Slipknot vocals are far from 'incomprehensible gibberish' as you put it. Even Cradle's vocals are from more comprehensable than a lot of other bands with death growl vocals.

Most rap no a days is crap. I like rap and all but they have no message in them anymore and all they talk about now are big butts, boobs and getting some. I even heard a song about chicken noodle soup a couple days ago. It's pathetic what has happen to rap. From legends like Run D.M.C. and Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five to "rappers" talking about laffy taffy. Because of this I've turned almost completely away from rap and instead turned to past music or other genres. It's so very sad.

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Originally Posted by K. H. Kid

Most rap no a days is crap. I like rap and all but they have no message in them anymore and all they talk about now are big butts, boobs and getting some.

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You have just described your average, every day, red-blooded male. I guess they're crap too. (I'm sorry - I found that hilarious).

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Originally Posted by NorthernChaosGod

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Originally Posted by salvaje

Rap is music. And there is talent in it.

In some forms of rock, you have a singer that screams incomprehensible gibberish into a microphone - and is applauded. Ever heard of Cradle of Filth, or Slipknot?

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Just because there is talent in it, does not make it music. Beat poetry has some talent in it, is that music too?

Also, firstly, even the harshest of Slipknot vocals are far from 'incomprehensible gibberish' as you put it. Even Cradle's vocals are from more comprehensable than a lot of other bands with death growl vocals.

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One - yep; I made a typo. Am I in the Hall of Shame now? Will this turn into a grammar/spelling challenge?

Two - Yes, I believe it can also be a form of music.

Three - I've stated before; people are biased. The argument "Oh, I listen to rap, but I still don't consider it music" is a bit stale; it always comes down to preferences.

People hate rap. People hate rock. People hate me. People hate YOU.

It doesn't matter; any argument voiced will only turn into a game of "Ring Around the Roses", and I'm far too tired and weary to play such games. Think what you will - your hatred of rap will not topple the rap industry, and their hatred of rock will not topple the rock industry.

Now, I'd like to quote one of my more elegant, profound statements.

"Big a** f**kin' circle and not a damn person's f**kin' gettin' the message that it will lead NOWHERE in the end but an archive of a**holery and b*tchery."

Have a great one, everyone ^_^

Listen to NaS. And AZ. They have some songs that are pretty "gangsta" and every song has a little of it but that's in all rap, it's part of rap. Just some MCs use it to exspress things and "drop knowldge"

rap is crap haha

Some rap is good. Most isn't. I think They should try finding another way to kill 50 Cent, as shooting the b*st*rd clearly doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by themagicroundabout

Now this is what I call rap music.

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I hate you. :tongue:

Rap is fine. :rolleyes2
Leave 'em alone; don't bully them! :tongue:

Rap most certainly counts as music. I just don't like it. :p

I think rap is good sometimes but not like it's now... everybody can rap now and music seems that it's losing it's value... I'm not protecting others genres of music but I think people should start earing beyound rap and pop...

I would agree some rap music is bad, since they put in something that has nothing to do with the word, just to make one thing ryhme to another. But rap music in general is great, i listen to it all the time. Real rap music, not some trash, where they make up theyre own words and such.

ow and pure quin14, i seriosly dislike you, first of you have no right to judge any rapper. You are allowed to have your aponion on that you dont like how they rap, but that certainly doesn't mean that he is suppost/deserves to die! I know so many diffrent things, that i see you clearly are. But im not gonna start being rude or anything, so ill just leave it.

Yes, I consider rap to be music.

In fact, it is! Considering it to be music is something else, but there's no question about it actually being music. If you need me to explain this, just yell, but I think anyone with a decent knowledge of music knows it's music, even if you like or not, it makes no difference.

I actually like some aspects of rapmusic, like the loud and usually slow bass which thrills your throat at live shows, and some artists are just geniuses with words.

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Originally Posted by Rosenti

I would agree some rap music is bad, since they put in something that has nothing to do with the word, just to make one thing ryhme to another. But rap music in general is great, i listen to it all the time. Real rap music, not some trash, where they make up theyre own words and such.

ow and pure quin14, i seriosly dislike you, first of you have no right to judge any rapper. You are allowed to have your aponion on that you dont like how they rap, but that certainly doesn't mean that he is suppost/deserves to die! I know so many diffrent things, that i see you clearly are. But im not gonna start being rude or anything, so ill just leave it.

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Yeah I like the good rap.

And my opinion about how I want 50 Cent to die wasn't about the rappers in general. A lot of them suck, yeah, but I don't want them to die. Just 50 Cent. I really really hate him.