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Thread: Games, art, and our usual thing

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    absolutely haram Recognized Member Madame Adequate's Avatar
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    Default Games, art, and our usual thing

    Been awhile since we've ranted on about this and Mr. Ebert has written something new about it after several years, so here is the thread.

    Here is Roger Ebert's new piece.

    Here is my response:
    Quote Originally Posted by Moi
    I propose that games can be art. I make this proposition not because of graphics, sound, or other such elements - which might be art in their own right but which do not form the core component of the thing, any more than a camera angle justifies cinema as art. I make this proposition in part because games possess an element (one which I readily concede is still very much in its infancy) which other media cannot, at least in my experience, replicate.

    Games can provoke internal conflicts in the player. To take an example most will be familiar with, in any of the first three Resident Evil games you are fully aware that going down a corridor or into a new room has a chance of you encountering some unpleasant creature. However! You cannot progress through the game without doing so. In other media one might experience this vicariously; in games it is a direct conflict within and on the part of the player.

    But RE is a simplistic example. In Shadow of the Colossus, you are given a very minimal presentation of your goal; ressurect a girl. You do this by killing a series of absolutely beautiful, often forlorn creatures, these being the titular Colossi. They do you no harm until you seek them out and kill them for your own ends. In other games this might be incidental or irrelevant, but in Shadow of the Colossus many players feel guilty for doing so. I almost was unable to finish playing the game due to the feelings of guilt. The only times I have felt unable to finish anything else (barring for reasons of quality, of course), be it a film or book or what have you, is because it is disgusting and exploitative.

    In the old X-Com games you are the overseer of X-Com, a special forces unit tasked with repulsing a secret alien invasion. Many players of this classic will tell you that few experiences match it. First, because the tension is masterful. You do not know what will be behind any door you might open, or corner you might round. Anything could lead to the death of crewmembers. But it is your hands, and you make your own stories here. And that leads me to the second point: You form an attachment to your team which is almost unmatched in any fictional setting. When you have commanded them through dozens of battles, repelled alien attacks on major cities, breached imposing UFOs, and they get killed because of an alien which should be irrelevant but simply proved lucky, there is a serious sense of loss and despair. This comes about in a game whose plot barely meets the standard of a 50s B-movie, by the way. The player forms these attachments and has these experiences because of their own playing of the game, unique to them.

    The great majority of games have no particular artistic merits, being simply fun (Or not) to play. But the great majority of TV and films and books have no particular artistic merits either. It is the rare few which do stand out that allow us to call the medium in question art, not the vast bulk of them. If you pick any random game off the shelf then you are unlikely to find much artistic worth in it. If you play the right games, however, you might. Again, the industry is rather nascent and examples remain rare, but they do exist, and games have something which can be used to increase their artistic power - player interaction.

    I feel that with your criticism of Braid you misapprehend the purpose of the mechanic, or indeed games as a whole. Writing Braid off because you can undo your moves and that's not what games are supposed to do is nonsensical; games are each individual and whilst conventions exist they also each have their own internal structure and dynamic. The uniqueness of Braid, one of the reasons it is put forth as art, is partly because of the very gameplay mechanics you deride. The criticism you offer seems to be equivalent to criticizing Watchmen because the 'heroes' fail to stop Ozymandias' plan from being enacted. Part of what makes games art is that they have their own stock elements, tropes, characteristics, and that these can be subverted. Without playing games until you are familiar with these it is difficult to appreciate why a subversion matters or, indeed, to even recognize it as such. Without understanding how First Person Shooters work it's difficult to understand the impact of Call of Duty 4, where one level is spend crawling around, without weapons or enemies, in the aftermath of a nuclear explosion, before dying.
    Here is something by Justin McElroy which may be of interest and note.

    And here is another interesting piece which you may wish to discuss.

    Have at it!

  2. #2
    Recognized Member VeloZer0's Avatar
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    The “games vs. art” debate is pretty much the same as the debate about abortion (and absolutely just that important).
    Best opening quote ever.

    This is a fundamentally stupid argument, as art means different things to different people. Most people's conceptions of art are confined to whatever they 'feel' should be included, and when forced to qualify this classification they rationalize rules that are in support of their position.

    But this should be about video games and art, not my objection with the whole concept of 'art'. I generally disdain 'art', but there seems no reason that the medium of video games should be excluded from the old boys club for qualities intrinsic to the medium. Video games that actualy are art, well that is more debatable.

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    Would sniff your fingers to be polite
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    I believe hacking a cow in half and then chucking it in a tub of vinegar does not constitute art, yet the magnificent tales found in games such as Final Fantasy 9 (squeal!) and its kin do. How could the rolling landscape of Shadow of the Colossus not be art? I honestly cannot understand the opposing view here. It makes sense to say that all games are not art, in the same way it makes sense to say that all paintings are not art. It seems to me that arguing that games are not art is completely futile, and I can't see any worthwhile point in its favour.

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    I remember somebody the last time this came up (I want to say either Hsu or eestlinc) said something like movies were once upon a time considered for the poor and looked down upon, much different then what it grew into. In other words, you'd think Ebert would understand what was once simple and for the score obsessed or "geeks" can grow into a whole new beast over the decades -- which is exactly what happened. I think he's being a hypocrite about this.

    There are games where you can pick up and look at photographs or view paintings or pictures on walls. It's not interactive, just a close up shot. It's you viewing a construction that an artist drew and crafted and placed for you to stare at, nothing more. So there you go, a picture that is nothing but a picture for you to view, and it's in a game.

    Eh, whatever.

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    To blatantly rip off a random post I read on the escapist forums, I’ll say that while I respect Ebert, this is ridiculous.

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    I don't really get worked up about this anymore because you can't take seriously a man (Ebert) who admittedly doesn't have the knowledge to make the claim he puts forth.

    Then again, I can't blame him because in this article (MILF linked) he is writing in response to Kelly Santiago, who, is brilliant in my opinion, used economic sophistication and market impact to justify what makes these games so good. Despite what journalists may want me to think, I wouldn't bring up BRAID or Waco in this debate, and probably only flower as something I vaguely know about.

    He's challenging us to show him games that can be put up with the great writers, composers, artists, etc. I would say Hideo Kojima or maybe even Miyamoto, I don't think you could say these men aren't artists, masters of pop culture, and I would hope Ebert doesn't know of them.

    But what is art? Why should I even give a damn what other people think of it, or even if games are art at all when I'm having such a great time with them? If I'm being visually and audibly stimulated, isn't that "art" enough for me? If I'm being intellectually stimulated, outside of gameplay mechanics/puzzle solving, (as Kojima does so often) that hits it right on the head I believe.

    I think the best definition of art is something that delves into a theme, an aspect of life, and brings more out of it. Metal Gear Solid obviously does that while having a score better than most music, cutscenes directed better than most movies, and dialogue better than what most writers churn out. The games made us think about genetic determinism, information proliferation, prescribed fate, and psychology/senses (respectively from 1-4) all while keeping us in suspense, repulsed, enamored, shocked, and whatever emotion you want to pull out of the book.

    I think just focusing on gameplay a lone is why Ebert will never cave, and for that reason maybe he never should. But I could be wrong, as MILF made a good point about the early resident evil games. Then again, I wouldn't bring up the CoD4 Jackson death because it doesn't provide anything interesting to say or provoke any real thoughts on nuclear warfare. It's just there for shock value.

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    absolutely haram Recognized Member Madame Adequate's Avatar
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    For me it was pretty powerful, not so much because of the "nuclear war is bad" thing (no duh) but because oh how it subverted the conventions of the genre. I'm broadly in agreement that the message itself was nothing special but in that instance I'm more trying to show how a game can do something that another medium literally cannot do, as well as highlighting how we might better use gameplay itself to advance games and the art they may contain.

    In any event I suppose the fact that it's open to interpretation and has subjective impact just strengthens the broader argument

    So let me open this up to further questions, which we've already started touching on: What current games, or game makers, are art or artists? Is it right to say that games can offer things other media can't and, if so, how can we develop this further? Can people offer examples of their own experiences which they would put forth as sufficient for them to consider games artistic?

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    Slothstronaut Recognized Member Slothy's Avatar
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    Here's another rebuttal about Ebert's comments and one which I think brings up the most important rebuttal point of all; Ebert saying games will never be art is like someone who's never seen a movie saying that film will never be art. Link.

    As for my own thoughts, I may be entirely biased because I'm an aspiring game designer, but I consider games themselves to be something of a work of art. Game design is certainly an artful process. One that is as much based on intuition as hard fact and which may seek to make a game solely to capture an intangible feeling you can't quite put into words in it's game mechanics, or teach some sort of lesson or make an emotional impact. If a game manages to make me ponder it's themes, or get a greater emotional response from me than any movie meant to do the same, can we really say games aren't art? I think games have a much greater capacity to do these things than any previous media. Getting the player engaged in the experience and directly affecting it will on it's own tend to make people more psychologically invested in what happens than any medium where their involvement is passive.

    As to the other questions you've put forth MILF, I'll give my thoughts one at a time.

    What current games, or game makers, are art or artists?: I could probably go on way too long about what games I consider truly great artistic works, but I'll pick out one of my favourites and some unexpected ones as well. Shadow of the Colossus is always a big one. Ico was as well, but more people are familiar with SotC so we'll run with it. Like many people I genuinely felt bad about killing the colossi. They were these magnificent creatures who's only crime was getting between you and your goal of reviving the girl. At the same time, coming across each new one inspired a sense of awe that no movie has ever matched with me, usually followed by the realization that I had to surmount these incredible obstacles. Even more importantly, I felt the sprawling, largely empty landscape not only kept me focused on this task, but actually made each one even more inspiring simply because there was nothing to get in the way of these amazing set pieces. They would have had far less impact if I had to fight for an hour to get to them.

    My other picks include Mirror's Edge which many would probably be surprised by. It surprised me to, but if I'm going to talk about games that elicit a number of emotional responses this is a big one. It starts off well enough with the fairly awe inspiring buildings that you run and climb around on. But what you aren't really prepared for is how terrifying it can be. This game will get the blood pumping even on some relatively simple jumps solely because falling is scary as hell. Even now when I go back and play it, I generally feel like I'm falling if I miss a jump and plummet to the streets. I cringe every single time, and sometimes even shut my eyes so I can't see the ground coming up fast. Then there's every time I'm running from enemies where I can practically feel them breathing down my neck and am quite terrified as I try to urge myself to go faster. No movie, book, or painting could ever evoke the feeling of immersion and the feelings this game creates.

    As for game makers I consider artists, as far as I'm concerned anyone trying to make a game and get some response out of the player is an artist. Most of them may not be good artists, but you wouldn't say a guitar player isn't a musician just because they only know three chords.

    Is it right to say that games can offer things other media can't and, if so, how can we develop this further?: I think I've made my case for why I think games certainly can and do offer things other media can't, namely interaction and player engagement in what happens. As for how we can develop it further, I think one of the articles you posted had a good idea in not just developing the game first then piling on other layers such as the themes, the story and the intended message. The more we develop these simultaneously and in support of the entire experience, the more cohesive the entire experience can become. Not to say that all games should be developed this way though. It's just as acceptable to make a damn fine game and support that as supporting the intended theme.

    Can people offer examples of their own experiences which they would put forth as sufficient for them to consider games artistic?: I've used this example before, and I will have to spoiler tag it for those who haven't played Heavy Rain. Read at your own risk because this was literally one of the most pivotal decisions in the game. (SPOILER)Towards the end, your character Ethan is faced with the choice of drinking poison that will kill him in an hour to get the last clue to find his missing son, or not doing it and trying to find him on his own with the clues he has. After spending the entire game making choices and decisions for this character (him literally being an extension of myself at this point), as well as forming an emotional connection to his son early in the game and even going so far as to cut off part of his finger for an earlier clue, it was at this point that I literally had to put the controller down. Having to decide whether to potentially die for a better chance at finding his son but leave him without a father, or not get the last clue and possibly lead to his son dying literally brought me to tears. I had such a hard time deciding between the two options that I cried and spent more than ten minutes trying to decide. Without my own engagement in the story throughout the game, and without it being so well crafted and complemented by the gameplay I never would have been so affected. No movie, no book, no other form of media at all has ever created such feelings and such conflict within me, and frankly, I don't think they ever could. Games are unique in their ability to make the player invested, and the potential for exploring such emotional investment is far greater than that of any other art form.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by VeloZer0 View Post
    This is a fundamentally stupid argument, as art means different things to different people. Most people's conceptions of art are confined to whatever they 'feel' should be included, and when forced to qualify this classification they rationalize rules that are in support of their position.
    I agree with this. I think some movies are art by Bolivar's definition of what art is: certainly Schindler's List is art, but I doubt anyone considers Jurassic Park so lofty. Does that mean Jurassic Park is a worse film because it doesn't bring more out of life or explore the human condition? I don't think so. Certainly I could rationalize how certain games are art (Shadow of the Colossus), but not others (Gears of War). But again, this all comes back to how subjective art is, and how nobody really can define it.

    Ultimately, I don't give a damn if videogames are considered a form of art, whether by Roger Ebert or Suda 51. I do, however, believe them to be works of craftsmanship.

    Shadow of the Colossus and Gears of War could not provide more disparate experiences, whether on an emotional or gameplay level. However, I'd argue that neither one, objectively, is any better than the other. Both are incredibly well made titles in every respect, and both fully achieve their separate goals.

    A game can, perhaps, be artistic, but in order to be relevant in today's overcrowed market it is arguably more important that it is actually, you know, a good game. Maybe Okami has artistic merit, and maybe it doesn't. Either way, it is one of the most finely crafted gaming experiences I've ever had.

    Maybe Resident Evil 4 has no artistic merit, and maybe it does. Ultimately, it's one of the top three best games I have ever played, and is a perfect example of how distinct this medium can be when a game knows how to properly communicate itself to the player (meaning, without heavy tutorials) and actually decides to keep things as interactive as possible. Does that make it art? Hell if I know, but it is a nearly spotless work of craftsmanship.

    I remember in an art class that I took I found out about an "artist" who wrote something on a toilet, and then put it on display in an exhibit. Some people were appalled, others loved it, but mostly everyone was discussing it and trying to debate its artistic merits. Was the artist trying to make a statement? Is that all it takes to create "art"? To make a statement, a commentary, even to the detriment of craftsmanship and skill? Does that artist and his toilet bring more to the cultural space than the Mega Man fan who painstakingly poured his talent (not to mention considerable time) into creating a massive pixel-art replica of Mega Man using post-it notes?

    Perhaps that's for Ebert to debate, or the gamers whom his opinions have stirred up. Me? I think I'll get back to enjoying the inspiring skill and astounding craftsmanship of RE4.
    Currently playing: Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker


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    Recognized Member Jessweeee♪'s Avatar
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    Cracked did something on this.

    Why Ebert Is Wrong: In Defense of Games as Art | Cracked.com

    I found it to be an interesting read

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    Depression Moon's Avatar
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    1up had a video response to it as well.

  12. #12
    programmed by NASIR Recognized Member black orb's Avatar
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    >> The black orb glitters ominously... but nothing happens..

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    Recognized Member VeloZer0's Avatar
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    Interestingly enough the main argument was that games can never be art because you can win them. Seeing as you can't win Mario Paint it is more relevant than a simple joke.

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