w-orst Moments in Gaming Plots

[Dr. rydrum2112]

WKC 2- when Scardine reveals "him"self.
FF12- Venat (and occult) in the same vein FF9's Necron

[NeoCracker]

I'll avoid listing all the problems with VIII here, as that would be my entire list.

Deus Ex Human Revolution - Any one of the endings. Doesn't matter. They are all him saying what 'Might' have happened as a result, what he hoped happened. He is sure to make a point of you knowing he has no Idea if any of this actually happens.

FF VII - The game is pretty clear, and it is stated in the Ultimania guide, Sephiroth is in control the whole game. Sephiroth, whose plan just happen to be Identical to Jenova, is in control. Why are his plans Identical to that of Jenova if she has no control over him? This is utter nonsense.

Lufia series - WHO THE smurf IS AREK! I WANNA KNOW!

[blackmage_nuke]

FF8 that moment when it turns out they all came from the same orphanage and all that other jazz. I still to this day cannot get my head around that.

Actually considering that Cid organised the missions and was Matron's husband, it's actually not that big of a coincidence that everyone involved in the Edea assasination plot happened to be from the same orphanage. It's possible he did it so they WOULDNT succeed.

FF13 Snow's organization just happens to have the same name as Hope's mother...

This confused me for so long -_-

All of FFXIII's overplot from Chapter 9 onwards.

I agree, around chapter 9 was when the plot stopped hooking me.

I also hate the wedding from MGS4. It just felt so out of place for a MGS ending, infact everything in that ending before the voice actor credits felt ridiculously out of place. It was only when I saw the second half of the ending which was a half hour or so rant that it really felt like a MGS ending.

Also Mei Ling shouldve performed the wedding ceremony

[Skyblade]

FF VII - The game is pretty clear, and it is stated in the Ultimania guide, Sephiroth is in control the whole game. Sephiroth, whose plan just happen to be Identical to Jenova, is in control. Why are his plans Identical to that of Jenova if she has no control over him? This is utter nonsense.

I thought Jenova was just a destroyer. Working more by instinct than plan. The idea to harness the energy of the wounded planet to become a god, that was all Sephiroth.

[Wolf Kanno]

Wolf & Big Boss

Big Boss has been built up as a good guy since the original Metal Gear Solid retconned him and his status as Snake's father. Everyone in that game idolized him, and the Solid Snake in that game is a man wracked by grief and rage over killing his own father, leading to his complete disillusionment and distrust with the United States government and its special forces. Kojima sacrificed the original Metal Gear games in order to build a deeper story with relevant themes that go beyond a soldier on a mission. And Porable Ops and Peace Walker both dealt with the same subject matter because only Peace Walker was directed by Kojima. They were both games in which Big Boss dealt with The Boss' death because they had to be; we needed to see how Kojima intended to handle it. Lastly, at the end of MGS3, he only learned what The Boss had done, he still refused to understand why she had done it.

Have you listened to the bonus tapes towards the end of the game?

No I haven't yet, I'm almost at the end of Peace Walker.

I wouldn't say they built him up as a good guy in the first game with the retcon, the father retcon just makes the clone plot twist not come off as silly as it really is. He was well respected but only Liquid truly idolized him and mostly in a twisted "I'll surpass you" kind of way, it doesn't change that Snake and just about everyone that wasn't FOXHOUND felt that Big Boss' idea of Outer Heaven and reigniting the Cold War by throwing Nuclear deterrence out the window was a bad idea and made Big Boss look crazy instead of this wonderful guy. He was presented as a complex character for sure, but I wouldn't say it made him any less villainous. They didn't ever really build him up until after the success of MGS3. I also disagree with "needing to see how Kojima would handle it" cause that's a terrible excuse to re-use an idea especially so shortly after it was already done and despite Portable OPS still being official canon. I also feel your last statement should be changed to that she told you why she did it, he just refused to listen to it.

I feel that the writers are just grasping for something meaningful to give him development and are willing to tredge up resolved issues and making them unresolved again to do it. Peace Walker is to the MGS narrative what Advent Children is to VII, a rehash of old themes cause the team knows there is nothing new to talk about. I want to see the Big Boss that was ready to throw the world into chaos for the sake of soldiers, not the guy who literally picks up and recruits every woman, child, and sob story he can find in the jungle and send them back to mercenary base for tea and cigarettes. I wanted to see him fall, not be transformed into the only true hero of the story, and I like the guy but I feel he lost his edge with the retcons. Even if Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 were remade to coincide with the series new narrative, I feel that Big Boss would be more of a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds instead of a Well Intentioned Extremist due to how they've been building him up since MGS3.

[Aulayna]

FF8 that moment when it turns out they all came from the same orphanage and all that other jazz. I still to this day cannot get my head around that.

Actually considering that Cid organised the missions and was Matron's husband, it's actually not that big of a coincidence that everyone involved in the Edea assasination plot happened to be from the same orphanage. It's possible he did it so they WOULDNT succeed.

I understand the reasoning of it but to me it still doesn't make it any less of a lame plot.

[The Man]

FF8 orphanage thing, like everyone said.

The other thing was the end of Star Ocean 3. I loved the game for the most part, but the end (SPOILER)revealing that the entire Star Ocean universe was part of a video game was a bit too much for me to take. Basically could've done without almost the entire second disc. The concept behind what they were trying to do could have been cool, but it was executed really haphazardly and it spoiled the effect they were obviously going for. At the very least (SPOILER)4D should have felt like (SPOILER)another universe entirely, but it didn't.

And yeah, the backstory of Chrono Cross connecting it to Trigger is pretty troutty too. I love that game for the most part, but there are two really weak moments in the game's plot; the first is the backstory everyone mentioned and the second is the feeble attempt to drop about ten hours of gameplay's worth of exposition on the player right before the final battle, because it's obvious they ran out of time to finish developing the game. The execution of the final battle itself leaves a lot to be desired as well - couldn't they have made it easier for the player to figure out how to get the proper ending of the game?

[NeoCracker]

FF VII - The game is pretty clear, and it is stated in the Ultimania guide, Sephiroth is in control the whole game. Sephiroth, whose plan just happen to be Identical to Jenova, is in control. Why are his plans Identical to that of Jenova if she has no control over him? This is utter nonsense.

I thought Jenova was just a destroyer. Working more by instinct than plan. The idea to harness the energy of the wounded planet to become a god, that was all Sephiroth.

What Jenova did was infect and devour planets so that she may move on to the next planet to do so.

Which is exactly what Sephiroth is doing now, the only difference is the referal to ones self as god. So really the only difference is semantics.

[Bolivar]

He was well respected but only Liquid truly idolized him and mostly in a twisted "I'll surpass you" kind of way, it doesn't change that Snake and just about everyone that wasn't FOXHOUND felt that Big Boss' idea of Outer Heaven and reigniting the Cold War by throwing Nuclear deterrence out the window was a bad idea and made Big Boss look crazy instead of this wonderful guy.

Sniper Wolf talked about what an amazing man he was and how he saved her from the desolation of her environment. Locked up, Snake cites his death as the reason why he had to leave special forces and live by himself in Alaska. Naomi also cites him as a father figure who helped finance her education and gave her a better life, cursing Solid Snake for killing him. His reputation is as "The Greatest Soldier of the 20th Century," not as madman who nearly killed us all. The LEF project is introduced as a betrayal that the player can easily compare to what they've been through with Solid Snake, and by the time the game is over, the U.S. government is no longer something the player should be surprised Big Boss challenged.

I think that's ample enough evidence.

Peace Walker is to the MGS narrative what Advent Children is to VII, a rehash of old themes cause the team knows there is nothing new to talk about.

An older plot point is not a theme. The self-defeating logic of nuclear deterrence is a theme. The 20th century emergence of Non Government Actors is a theme. Costa Rican neutrality through disarmament is a theme. The MGS series has always been about going beyond just the narrative and exploring larger ideas. All of these were new to the series.

Even the point about why The Boss carried out her role - that was only one part of the story. And to clarify, Jack learned why The Boss sacrificed herself - to cancel out Volgin's destruction of the R&D site and avert a nuclear standoff. But that explained nothing about why this woman who gave her body and her child to her country, only to be betrayed by them in the Bay of Pigs, the first space flight, and presumably other incidents, would continue fighting for them up to that point in 1963. The tapes revealed later on in the game give the answer, but there's still a lot of deciphering and deeper meaning the player has to go through to figure it out.

[Wolf Kanno]

Sniper Wolf talked about what an amazing man he was and how he saved her from the desolation of her environment. Locked up, Snake cites his death as the reason why he had to leave special forces and live by himself in Alaska. Naomi also cites him as a father figure who helped finance her education and gave her a better life, cursing Solid Snake for killing him. His reputation is as "The Greatest Soldier of the 20th Century," not as madman who nearly killed us all. The LEF project is introduced as a betrayal that the player can easily compare to what they've been through with Solid Snake, and by the time the game is over, the U.S. government is no longer something the player should be surprised Big Boss challenged.

I think that's ample enough evidence.

Notice how all of these people barring Snake are bad guys, also anyone would be shell shocked to learn you killed your old man so I would Snake's PTS is pretty founded without him thinking he's a good guy. The issue here is that Big Boss was respected, but that doesn't mean he was a good guy, Snake has a deep respect for several of the series villains but it didn't change that they were tragic psychopaths either. Even Metal Gear 2 showed that Big Boss wasn't absolutely evil as he took in war orphans to help them but this in turn allowed him to create a an army of loyal almost fanatical soldiers for his cause.

Even in the retcon versions of MG and MG2's story given in MGS1, Big Boss is still doing all this to create a perpetual state of global conflict for the sake of the soldier. MGS1 makes Big Boss' goal more sympathetic but it doesn't make him a good guy. Liquid Snake himself is following after his ideals and it doesn't stop that Snake and everyone else not FOXHOUND feels it's a bad idea that needs to be stopped. The issue with Snake's relationship with Big Boss as soldier is that he agrees with Big Boss about the plight of soldiers as he himself is basically a burnt out shell used by the government, whose skills make him feel unfit to be in peace time; but on the other hand, Snake also understands that soldiers fight for the sake of peace and what Big Boss is doing is counter-intuitive to this philosophy. That's why Liquid taunts Snake about enjoying the killing because it's a sign that Snake is becoming more like Big Boss who only felt alive on the battlefield. A lot of Liquid and Snake's conflict with each other is over being the true heir of Big Boss which Liquid desires and Snake sees as a curse, so I don't agree that everyone felt Big Boss was a great guy, certainly not Snake who almost tries to attack him when they reunite in MGS4. Everyone respected him as a professional soldier and he did earn the everlasting devotion of many by taking them in, but Big Boss never offered them a real life, he simply trained them to be part of his war machine. He's presented as a complex figure who wasn't really evil but I would also say the game wasn't portraying him as good either. I mean in both MGS1, 2, 4, and even Portable OPS ironically enough, a recurring conflict was trying to prevent Big Boss' ideal from becoming a reality.

The anti-government sentiment was present from the get-go of MGS1 as Snake and Campbell certainly weren't happy to be in their positions, though I disagree that MGS1 tries to make you be on Big Boss' side, of anything it just showed how people like Big Boss are justified, but I feel the game also shows that Big Boss is no better than the U.S. government in his methods or ideals. Snake toppled one would be tyrant to protect another and that's why you have Grey Fox there to speak about how it's not about ideology, its about doing what you feel is right for you, which is funny cause the Boss herself will echo this sentiment in MGS3.

An older plot point is not a theme. The self-defeating logic of nuclear deterrence is a theme. The 20th century emergence of Non Government Actors is a theme. Costa Rican neutrality through disarmament is a theme. The MGS series has always been about going beyond just the narrative and exploring larger ideas. All of these were new to the series.

And it's largely unfocused, I don't think Snake has had a meaningful conversation about Costa Rica and it's neutrality for hours in this game. The entire MGS series is about the self-defeating logic of nuclear deterrence since the Metal Gears represent how fragile nuclear deterrence is. Lately, all he's been going over is the Boss and what she wanted.

Even the point about why The Boss carried out her role - that was only one part of the story. And to clarify, Jack learned why The Boss sacrificed herself - to cancel out Volgin's destruction of the R&D site and avert a nuclear standoff. But that explained nothing about why this woman who gave her body and her child to her country, only to be betrayed by them in the Bay of Pigs, the first space flight, and presumably other incidents, would continue fighting for them up to that point in 1963. The tapes revealed later on in the game give the answer, but there's still a lot of deciphering and deeper meaning the player has to go through to figure it out.

The Boss explains her rationale in MGS3 when she goes into her rather lengthy monologues about the nature of patriotism, the role of a soldier, and the bigger picture of history and leaving something behind. Snake (and the player) just doesn't understand what she means in MGS3 until the very end when you learn of her real role, but she does actually sit there and explain her rationale. The idea of the enemy is simply based on the times and allies and enemies are created based on what the times dictate but in reality there is "No East or West" there is just one tiny dot of earth floating in the cosmos, The Boss' trip into orbit allowed her to see this and her father taught her about the eternal spiral of war created by the philosophers, The Boss wanted to put an end to this and unite the world again (though historically speaking that never was the case before WWII either), she tells you all of this in the final confrontation. I have not finished Peace Walker so whether they decided to add to this is still a mystery for me but I've shown you that MGS3 certainly gave the player an answer, and if Peace Walker is adding to it, it still just proves my point that they are simply trying to draw out resolved issues more.

[Flying Arrow]

My first instinct coming into this thread was the FFVIII GF/memory thing. I feel so vindicated.

I'll come back when I can think of something more awful.

Don't hold your breath.

[Ultima Shadow]

Every moment of Star Ocean 4. Every single part of that game where there's supposed to be some kind of plot, it's terribly done.

[Bolivar]

Wolf, you're writing pages of text and going out of your way to deny that someone who saves war orphans and pays for people's tuition may be sympathetic to a few people. If you don't think the original Metal Gear Solid attempted to move Big Boss away from the two-dimensional villain he was portrayed as in the original Metal Gear games then I just have to laugh and walk away shaking my head.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

Wolf, you're writing pages of text and going out of your way to deny that someone who saves war orphans and pays for people's tuition may be sympathetic to a few people. If you don't think the original Metal Gear Solid attempted to move Big Boss away from the two-dimensional villain he was portrayed as in the original Metal Gear games then I just have to laugh and walk away shaking my head.

[black orb]

>>> Cosmos sacrificing herself on Dissidia..lol