I have to have something to do when there's no mafia games on!
Do you think I'd be good at this "EoEO" game of which you speak?
I have to have something to do when there's no mafia games on!
Do you think I'd be good at this "EoEO" game of which you speak?
but no
good vs evil
No one ever said this was a discussion of good and evil. really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking..
Wait...what? Too weak for FIENDS? Which faction's endings causes the single greatest blow to The Fiends? That's right, NCR.and FREEEEEEDOM!!!! (hint: Freedom to get smurfing murdered by Fiends/Raiders/Powder Gangers/Corrupt NCR Troops/Feral Ghouls/Super Mutants and all the other things the NCR are too weak to deal with)Powder Gangers? NCR makes short work of them. What threats has the Legion been able to keep at bay?
What faction's ending causes the Followers of the Apocalypse, arguably the only "good" faction in the game to be either totally displaced or even downright destroyed? Caesar's Legion.
Great Khans? Caesar smurfs them over. The Kings? Demolished. Novac? Almost totally destroyed. Oh wait, NCR had one tragic massacre that almost no one in the NCR endorses and it's an imperialist hellhole. Caesar's Legion does this as a policy rather than a tragedy and it's acceptable? What sort of argument is that? Who's the hypocrite here?
Afghanistan is under the American banner? Iraq is an American colony? Despite appearances to the contrary, no. No one is endorsing the same policy here, and your insistence that "NCR SHOULD BE LIKE AMERIKAH" is a massive really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. argument. America became the same way it was because the population was easily led by those who had no interest with them. While such is a risk of democracy, it is not inevitable and is reversible.because democracy is way more important than living in peace and stability. AMURRRRCA says so. Hell let's ask what the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq think about that! i mean hey ho I may live in a war torn trouthole and poverty and in constant fear of my life, but on the plus side I can call the our troutty leaders who got me into this troutty situation dorks! AHHRRRRRRRR HAAAAAAAAA ANERRRRRICAAAA COME ON AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERsmurfING DAY YEAH
The thing is, NCR does provide safety and security for its citizens. ALL OF ITS CITIZENS. There are no slaves, no people punished for speaking out. Caesar's Legion cannot provide safety for its citizens because it endorses the mistreatment and subjugation of a large portion of its citizens. Whatever security the NCR somehow fails to provide, it makes up for by not establishing a certain portion of the population as objects.
Also, if the Legion was so capable of performing better than NCR militarily, why haven't they been able to expand in their territory until a massive political paradigm shift is specifically engineered in their favor?
You did! Repeatedly!Originally Posted by Laddy
Uh, yes, hence why they exist.Wait...what? Too weak for FIENDS?No xD If all Fiend leaders live, ie, if the Courier wasn't around:Which faction's endings causes the single greatest blow to The Fiends? That's right, NCR.
Never weakened by NCR, the Fiends staged an attack against Camp McCarran during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. Though NCR repulsed the Fiends, they suffered heavy losses in the process
The Fiends attacked Camp McCarran during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam and suffered heavy losses. Caesar, unimpressed with their performance and their dependence on chems, had them exterminated
lol.If the Courier helps.Powder Gangers? NCR makes short work of them.
87 of them if you want to be precise.What threats has the Legion been able to keep at bay?Uh... what are you talking aboutWhat faction's ending causes the Followers of the Apocalypse, arguably the only "good" faction in the game to be either totally displaced or even downright destroyed? Caesar's Legion.
After the NCR's victory at the dam, the Followers of the Apocalypse were pushed out of Old Mormon Fort during its occupation by NCR forces. NCR further "encouraged" them to leave Outer Vegas entirely, and the Followers had no choice but to comply
And what happens to all of those groups under NCR (other than Novac as it's an NCR town an doesn't count anyway!) They get smurfed over too, unless the Courier intervenes. The difference is that's what Caesar sets out to do. He never says "I am not going to kill people", he just goes and does it. The NCR plead democracy or raising people up or some crap and murder them anyway. They're both identical, only one at least has the balls to admit what he's doing. Also... never... once claimed that the Legion were anything but a bunch of assholes, indeed I've repeatedly stated "smurf the Legion" so I don't know who is the hypocrite to which you refer.Great Khans? Caesar smurfs them over. The Kings? Demolished. Novac? Almost totally destroyed. Oh wait, NCR had one tragic massacre that almost no one in the NCR endorses and it's an imperialist hellhole. Caesar's Legion does this as a policy rather than a tragedy and it's acceptable? What sort of argument is that? Who's the hypocrite here?
The game's lead developer straight up says that the Legion's "citizens" have more safety and security than those of the NCR so you can stop with that line, champ. It's not a Legion policy to go around randomly murdering the entire population and you're blind if you think it is. Caesar is creating an Empire. What he does is a means to an end. There is no point in killing/enslaving everyone and stifling the economy so he doesn't do it. But hey ho now who is really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning?The thing is, NCR does provide safety and security for its citizens. ALL OF ITS CITIZENS. There are no slaves, no people punished for speaking out. Caesar's Legion cannot provide safety for its citizens because it endorses the mistreatment and subjugation of a large portion of its citizens. Whatever security the NCR somehow fails to provide, it makes up for by not establishing a certain portion of the population as objects.There's that man of straw again, sugar! Never said that. The NCR's military smurfing vastly dominates the Legion's. The NCR flies around in Vertibirds with Thermic Lances and smurfing Laser Rifles. The Legion's best weapon is a chainsaw xDAlso, if the Legion was so capable of performing better than NCR militarily, why haven't they been able to expand in their territory until a massive political paradigm shift is specifically engineered in their favor?[/COLOR]
So you tell me why the Legion can keep its lands under greater control and fight the NCR to a stalemate.
I never once said it was discussion of good and evil. I even said that this isn't a black-and-white issue.
As for the Fiends,they don't exist where NCR has territory, do they?
The worst thing NCR required the Followers to do is relocate. That is the Legion at its best. As for the Kings, at worst the Kings take upon attacking NCR citizens prior to be targeted. Great Khans will be targeted for being aligned with Caesar, again, at worst.
No one is saying NCR is aparticularly pleasant place to live, but I'd much rather be NCR than Legion. WHICH IS ALL I WAS EVER TRYING TO SAY.
And yes, I will concede that Legion does provide safety to its citizens. However, I think the relative security of NCR is vastly superior considering the huge portion of the population that is enslaved, if not killed, under Legion expansion.
And the point I was trying to make is that if you are a slave, you don't really have much security, now do you?
All around Camp McCarran you have a Fiend smurffest son! It's like a bizarre goat farm out there.
Also I actually liked the Legion ending a bit more for the Followers:
After the Legion's victory, Caesar, out of a strange respect for his old fellows, allowed the Followers safe passage out of the wasteland. Reluctantly, the Followers accepted the offer and abandoned Old Mormon Fort to the Legion.
See? He's alright really.As for the Khans being punished for allying with Caesar, as I pasted earlier in the thread - if the Khans sell Caesar out the NCR smurfs them over anyway.
Anyway I can sum this up with a quality of life hierachy under the Big 2:
1. Legion citizen
2. NCR citizen
3. Legion slave
Under Caesar's lads the highs are higher and the lows are lower. And if you really, and I mean really, got into the true spirit of this game... you'd take a chance at being #1 and roll the dice! Ring-a-ding, baby.
It seems you have reached the point of not really trying. Imperialist.
There's a perk called Sneering Imperialist and it's the best! And I'm not trying because I'm not pro-Legion and debating their particular benefits has begun to bore me. We say "It's not black and white!" and other such platitudes, and it's not when it comes to NCR v Legion, but it sure as smurf is for the real outcome of the game.
I'm going to make one further post and one post only, save for discussions on DLC themes.
(SPOILER)See, the way this game is framed, you see NCR as the good guys and the Legion are the bad guys, but if you dig a little deeper when the game goes on, you learn the NCR isn't as good as it first appeared nor the Legion quite so bad. To me, like all the Paragon players in ME, you're all stuck in your ways of thinking. You're afraid to explore.
The reason I guess is simple enough. You've been indocrtinated, for want of a bettter word, from birth to believe that the American/Western way is correct and all alternatives are wrong, and in the unknown and hostile environment of the Mojave Wasteland, that bit of familiarity brings comfort to you.
If you want to be absolute, in that anything short of perfect is wrong, democracy is wrong. Well, no, I tell a lie. It can be wrong. It usually is. It always has been, in fact. A perfect democracy would being every single person in that democracy being hyper-intelligent and benevolent, leading to the right thing being done all of the time. This is practically impossible and as such we've never had one. Now, this isn't to say America's democracy is a bad thing, it is not - it is the best thing under the circumstances! It's just not perfect either, and never will be. NCR sure as smurf is not America, however. America has had the benefit of a very peaceful existence (as in, who has ever legitimately threatened the American people? Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are the two big ones and relatively speaking, they're a nothing) which is very different from ol' NCR. Never mind the Legion, the NCR has been in a bitter war with the BoS for a very long time which saw the NCR's whole currency system collapse. American democracy has never been tested like that.
Now, I mentioned a perfect democracy. Want to know an equally good system? Instead of the entire population being super people - One person. One super-capable and benevolent person free of influence. That's a lot easier to achieve than however many millions of people you'd need for a perfect democracy. It's still practically impossible in the real world too, of course, but hopefully the point emerges.
In New Vegas, there is a super human. The Courier. Every little issue, every trifling dispute to every major catastrophe can be caused and solved by the Courier. Nothing can withstand them. They are a God, and the Mojave revolves around them. The NCR, the Legion, House... none of them are capable of tying their own shoelaces without the Courier doing it for them. Why, then, would any of them be fit to rule?
So you see, the Courier ruling in the Wild Card option is truly the best. They are that superhuman. Their benevolent dictatorship is actually the delirious dream of a madman, perfect as it is. You love the NCR, well let me say this. You put the whole of the NCR in a fight against my Courier, I know exactly who I would bet on. There is no army that can resist the Courier alone, let alone the Courier with the unbelievably broken Securitrons at their back. They are not corrupt, like the NCR. They're not cruel, like the Legion. They're not power-mad like Mr. House Or... are they all three?Or... or... lo and behold... the Courier... perfection.
But, more importantly, let's touch back on democracy for just one second. What do the people of the Mojave truly want? They don't want the NCR or the Legion. What they want, as is evidenced every second you play the game, is that they want the Courier to rule their lives and make the important decisions for them. They don't want to have a say, other than saying that they want the Courier to choose. And, yes, the Courier can choose Legion, or NCR, or House, and that is ultimately the beauty of the game. But what's option four?
The Courier chooses forever (don't say "until they die" because you should go play OWB), and true perfection is attained. And that is the message my Courier delivers to all of you.
EDIT: One last point, have any of the NCR fanboys played Lonesome Road? Because I suspect you haven't as it would explain a lot.
Of course I've played Lonesome Road. All it did was make me mad because giving your blank slate character a backstory is goddamn stupid.
Also yes I imagine if everything was perfect then we could have a benevolent dictatorship but it's not so we need to go with the system that can best absorb the flaws and problems of society. I mean I GUESS you can just redefine a bunch of evil trout as not-evil and call it good but...
Yeah the backstory bit was horrendous. The rest of it, the messages Ulysses had to share about "The bear and the bull" made a lot of smurfing sense.
ALSO THE COURIER IS PERFECT DON'T YOU SEE
But Ulysses was an idiot because if what he saw before it got blown up was so great he should sign up with the NCR because they're pretty much the exact thing he describes. He's just romanticizing it because he loved it so much.
Pikey, that's because we're arguing about government and what's good for the people and who has the best intentions, etc etc. This thread should essentially be moved to EoEo because video game politics matter for realsies.
Babe ended the argument with two-headed bear, imo.
And with that, I'm gonna go play Fallout.
A topic which actually moves Paul to taking a side and expressing his opinions must be a serious topic indeed.
While this has all been a fascinating, if not highly poncy read with you lot going back and forth about the merits of the differing factions, at the end of the day and in the simplest terms possible Shorty endorses the NCR therefore they are clearly dire. Could have saved yourself a whole heap of time if you had read the thread properly (although forcing yourself to read Sarah's posts is painful, I grant you that.)
NCR and Legion are equal in their trouttiness and goodness, though different in their types. House is a knob. Courier is a perfect and almighty being who constantly strives to improve... well, everything.
If I was a citizen of the game - meaning there is no Courier - I'd probably go for NCR. But I'm not. I'm the Courier, and I am the greatest damn thing that ever happened to the world.
It's kind of ridiculous in this greyscale game not only to have the player character be so damn magnificent, but also to allow them to take power. It makes the Independent route the only possible route for a sensible person to take.
Both of the last posts from my lads exiled in Asia are 100% correct and I fully endorse them.
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