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Thread: Am I going nuts...

  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quint Eastwood View Post
    I was just pointing out that this isn't the first time on EoFF that people have taken issue with your methods of discussing things.
    What did I do wrong before ?

    Anyways you guys got want you all wanted. I'm leaving. I get the hints. Bye.

    I missed this within all the drama but

    Quote Originally Posted by Formalhaut View Post
    Okay okay, I've read everything in here since it's inception, and so now I guess I'll give my opinion on the matter.

    For me, XII is one of my favourite Final Fantasies, but it is far from what I'd call 'godly'. In fact, I'd be very wary calling any game 'god-tier', because once you label a game that you assume it to be perfect, and no game is perfect. Besides, I'm not one for hyperbole anyway.

    For me, XII is a game that tried changing the formula, and for the most part, I very much appreciate it. The battle system was pretty dynamic and different, especially coming after X's rather static system which I didn't love so much. I personally liked the gambit system, in so far that you can automate the more 'tiring' parts of battle, like constantly scrolling through menus, while still giving you overall control through the use of overrides and turning them off if you wanted. I liked them, and it works with XII. But again, there are flaws. The main one for me is how XII really underpowered Magic. While certainly, in the early to middle game, Magick certainly has uses, by the time you get the stronger weapons and can start chaining and berserking with the best of them, Magick is ponderous, and also suffers from the inherent lag of the battle system. In XII, there is a quirk called 'Effect Capcity', which governs how many abilities can be used simultaneously. Spells with the maximum capacity of 8 (Holy, Flare, all the good ones) can only be cast when no other abilities are taking place. This means Ashe can be waiting quite a long time just to cast Scathe. Of course, normal attacks can be used regardless, making them just so much better to use most of the time.

    But that's just the battle system. In terms of story, I like the mature, understated nature of it. You rarely actually meet Vayne, but you are told of his menace throughout from cut-scenes and mere talk of the empire. It is as someone here said: he is a great villain because he doesn't show all his cards at once, blasting magick or what have you. He's more than content to just skulk in the background and turn wheels. Whether or not that was a wise choice, is another debate, but I really liked Vayne. But flaws! More flaws. The pacing of the game is somewhat one to be desired. It's strong in some points, and weak in others. After a good beginning, the plot slows during the Nalbina Dungeons, before picking up with Penelo's 'rescue', and then flatlining in the Sandsea. It's definitely a rollercoaster ride, and I understand people who haven't continued the story because they've hit a bit of stagnation. It's a slow burner of a story to be sure, but it does build and build, and, overall, despite it's pacing issues, it is good.

    But I do agree that there is a lack of a definite main character. While sure, the trimurti of Ashe, Balthier and Basch seem to be the main three players in the game (more leaning towards Ashe as the most important of the three) the fact that they couldn't get the main character right in the first place is a nagging annoyance. Never has a official main character been so fundamentally useless. Sure, Vaan does have his good points. He is the main character during the beginning sections of the game, assists Ashe from time to time with her 'visions' and generally fulfils the 'clueless young guy' slot (preceded by Tidus, of course), but yeah, I never cared for Vaan. He is our 'eyes', but that alone isn't enough to make him the main character, not by a long shot. I do agree with people bemoaning this, because it is a mistake I feel. Ashe would have made a great main character. Heck, she is the de facto main character!

    I'm rambling now. But I'll end with the side-quests. I rather liked them! I never felt particularly pressured to do any of the hunts or other sidequests, and to be honest, I find it difficult to not casually do some hunts anyway. I like the story behind the plight of the petitioner, and how happy you make him or her after smiting the mark. I refute this point very much so. The side-quests were one of the best bits of the game. It made it so... vast. Of course, here is another flaw that I'll concede. You often have so many side-quests that the story stagnates because you're busy doing everything! If you're a perfectionist like me, you do everything as and when you can, and well, I spend a good few hours doing everything I can before marching on. The replayability is great too with so many good challenges you can self-impose. 122333, or No Licence board, or Solo Challenge, etc.

    But I've said, far, far, far too much. In brief, while I certainly understand and accept some of the flaws of XII, for me, at least, it is a good game. Naturally, everyone is different, and their view of what a good game should be will vary. That's why I say no game can be a god-tier game. Everyone's different.
    Awesome post <3

    This is what I was so angry about. There's a huge difference between liking XII and putting XII on a pedestal. Love XII, fine. Everybody is different, but like said for the 100th time, putting it on a pedestal and being blind to it's flaws is extremely annoying.

    But who cares what this evil bitch Maybee says.


    Last edited by maybee; 09-04-2013 at 09:32 AM.

  2. #47

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    Who puts it on a pedestal? I almost never see anyone claim it's the best FF game, but I see people claiming most of the other ones are the best constantly. Did you even read my post?

  3. #48
    Radical Dreamer Fynn's Avatar
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    And how am I wrong even if I do think it's the best? That is actually subjective. Tastes differ and we won't be able to objectivelly determine which FF is the best, mainly due to the fact that what one person considers flawless, will be trash to another. So there is nothing wrong in saying any FF is the best.

    People care too much about other people's opinions not matching theirs.

  4. #49
    'Just Friends' Formalhaut's Avatar
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    Come on guys, group hug. Moogle dance!



  5. #50
    Bolivar's Avatar
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    I like maybee and I enjoy reading her respectful and entertaining arguments, even when I disagree with them as here.

    All I'm hearing is subjective. Whatever. I think XII had wonderful art, beautiful music, and fantastic writing at the script level. If you don't like the narrative pacing I recommend playing through the main story as fast as you can. It's amazing.

    I will admit, it reversed all of VIIs innovations that blurred the line between cutscene and game play, putting back up the walls that Kitase worked so damn hard to break down. The global RPG genre and Square have never recovered since.

    I'll leave with this: FFXII was extraordinarily ahead of its time. When you look at modern console RPGs, Japnese or Western, they all have something FFXII pioneered back in 2006. And none of them do it better than XII did. I can't play Mass Effect or Dragon Age just because of how much better the game design of similar concepts was in XII. The amount of control and strategy in the gambit system is jaw-dropping. But even if the game didn't have so many groundbreaking and revolutionary features, I'd probably still say it's arguably the best Final Fantasy of all time.

  6. #51
    Nobody's Hero Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    *skips over every insanly long-winded post by maybee who seems genuinely angry ppl love this game for some insane reason*
    *agrees with the normal ppl saying that XII is at the least, a great game*
    *notices spooniest is banned*
    *mind changes to wondering what they did*
    *eats a jaffa cake*

  7. #52
    Microwaving canned bread TrollHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maybee View Post
    This is what I was so angry about. There's a huge difference between liking XII and putting XII on a pedestal. Love XII, fine. Everybody is different, but like said for the 100th time, putting it on a pedestal and being blind to it's flaws is extremely annoying.

    But who cares what this evil bitch Maybee says.

    A) Please tone down the melodrama if you can. This is not the place for it. If you feel hurt or offended then I would recommend contacting an admin or staff or even making your own thread on the issue.
    B) I don't recall anyone putting this game on a pedestal or ignoring it's flaws. Sure, maybe we were discussing what we loved about XII, but that doesnt mean we're ignoring what it does wrong. You complain about people putting words into your mouth when you do the same to everyone else in this thread.
    As for issues with XII... Trust me, there are plenty of threads about that.


    This thread is just turning into a bunch of silly drama... if we're done discussing FFXII here than I'm done.
    Eyyyyyyyyyyyyy

  8. #53
    Crazy Scot. Cid's Knight Shauna's Avatar
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    Honest curiosity here: I've seen people in this here thread say that FFXII has great sidequests, but I've seen these same people slate FFXIII for having crap sidequests. Now, both of these in my mind have the same sidequests: Marks/Hunts. I am honestly just... bamboozled that one can be seen as better than the other when, to me, they are essentially the same thing.

    Not trying to stir up any FFXII-FFXIII wars, just looking for some insight into why this is.

  9. #54
    Nobody's Hero Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    Couldn't be me...I've never played XIII


    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maybee View Post
    This is what I was so angry about. There's a huge difference between liking XII and putting XII on a pedestal. Love XII, fine. Everybody is different, but like said for the 100th time, putting it on a pedestal and being blind to it's flaws is extremely annoying.

    But who cares what this evil bitch Maybee says.

    A) Please tone down the melodrama if you can. This is not the place for it. If you feel hurt or offended then I would recommend contacting an admin or staff or even making your own thread on the issue.
    B) I don't recall anyone putting this game on a pedestal or ignoring it's flaws. Sure, maybe we were discussing what we loved about XII, but that doesnt mean we're ignoring what it does wrong. You complain about people putting words into your mouth when you do the same to everyone else in this thread.
    As for issues with XII... Trust me, there are plenty of threads about that.


    This thread is just turning into a bunch of silly drama... if we're done discussing FFXII here than I'm done.
    There is quite a bit of angry drama from that direction isn't there.


    Maybee calm down. These are opinions. No one can possibly be wrong. Many people rightfully agree this is one of the greatest in the series while you, verbosely, wrongfully and melodramatically say it is not.

  10. #55
    Radical Dreamer Fynn's Avatar
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    Me neither. But from what I've heard it's all about XIII's mechanics not fitting the model at all, while XII was a good fit (probably because the idea was conceived with XII in mind and was just taped on to XIII). But that's pure speculation.

  11. #56
    Microwaving canned bread TrollHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shauna View Post
    Honest curiosity here: I've seen people in this here thread say that FFXII has great sidequests, but I've seen these same people slate FFXIII for having crap sidequests. Now, both of these in my mind have the same sidequests: Marks/Hunts. I am honestly just... bamboozled that one can be seen as better than the other when, to me, they are essentially the same thing.

    Not trying to stir up any FFXII-FFXIII wars, just looking for some insight into why this is.
    That's actually a very interesting point I've never considered.
    At least for me the hunts in XIII never felt super important because I was just talking to weird floating thing.
    In XII every hunt was having a specific effect on the world around you (even if said effect never really took place) and many (like the one dragon attacking the airships) felt more severe and urgent.
    That's one reason I just pulled out of my buttox. I liked the story behind the marks, XIII and its hunts didnt seem to grasp me in the same way.

    Then again, I also havent played XIII in a LONG time so take thoughts on that with a grain of salt.
    Eyyyyyyyyyyyyy

  12. #57
    Bolivar's Avatar
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    It might also be because XII takes place in a huge, living/breathing open world right of the bat whereas XIII just drops you off in one 3/4s through the game and is just big and empty. TH hit the nail on the head that it was real people in everyday situations who needed your help.

    Personally I feel like Mark Hunts in both games are cheap filler for side quests and RPGs should have you do more than just hitting things over the head. Monotonous combat aside, XII does fill out its side quest portfolio with exploring for Espers, searching for those hidden dungeons and finding out just how deep the rabbit hole goes ^_^

  13. #58
    Crazy Scot. Cid's Knight Shauna's Avatar
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    Fair enough, that distinction of actually dealing with NPCs is something I never considered. Didn't make too much difference for me, but admittedly that can make a truck-load of difference. :3

  14. #59
    Slothstronaut Recognized Member Slothy's Avatar
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    Cuch and I both like something. Who divided by zero?

    But seriously, FFXII is one of the best RPG's of all time. Anyone that disagrees is welcome to meet me in the Thunderdome.

  15. #60
    I AM NOT A PRETTY BOY! Shin Gouken's Avatar
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    I agree with TC in all points except one. Fran doesn't qualify as best protagonist of anything. Aside from being dressed like a hooker and fighting monsters in 6inch heels, she's little more than a plot device to help push the story forward. Seriously, if you need to know something, Frans your girl. She knows all about the Garif, she knows ledgends of the Nu Mou, she has ancient songs from her people, she smells the mist, she reads ancient text or simply just "senses" something. It's shameful how much she's abused for this purpose.

    On the subject of why FFXII's sidequests are great and FFXIII's are poor, this is more to do with the execution. FFXIII has you read some dull text on a wall and then you simply go to the marker on the map and fight the same enemy you've faced several times already. The fact that the enemies location is marked for you just emphasizes the fact you're needlessly running from A to B to reach your battle. Compare this with FFXII. You find the guy who posts the bill and he'll tell you why he wants the mark slaying. You then have to figure out where he'll be and then figure out how to spawn it. You actually feel like you're hunting something rather than being told to fight yet another battle. The battles are also much more unique rather than the standard pallette swaps in FFXIII that generally behave the exact same way as before but with slightly higher stats.

    Also, as already mentioned, Monster hunting is one sidequest amongst many. I'll be the first to admit that FFXII is a little heavy on the fetch quests, but the bonus dungeons, puzzles, hidden espers, rare treasures and pirates den are all good sidequests too. Fishing and pirate olympics are a bit meh, but there's something for everyone

    As for Vaan, he's a massive, massive improvement over that whiney, tantrum throwing baby from FFX. Characters like that need to be in very short doses or better yet, how about we role play as a hard as nails badass like Auron and leave the whiney crybabies at home with their mummies.
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