The fact that ff XIII is being compared to VII in just the smallest ways just puts me at a loss for words. No matter how sexy the protagonist of 13 is, the cast, story or just the game itself overall can never be compared to VII unless you're some geek who seems to think that graphics are what makes a good game which seems to be the case when it comes to most people these days -.-
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The fact that you consider her strong doesn't mean that she is.Originally Posted by ToriJ
For example she has this power that during the world of ruin she hides even though she has the strength to do something about Kefka even by herself but she doesn't... why? Because she lacks the mental conviction to do something about it... I mean sure she builds her strength up over time but... what final fantasy character can this not be said about?
Lightning however was a powerful warrior right from the get go. The story portrays her as the remorseless soldier who will not slow down for anything or anyone. She sets out to save Serah and she stops at nothing to see he will put into motion.
At the start of VI Terra is enslaved, then she needs rescuing by Locke, then the Returners seek to use her power and she isn't all "OMG I hate the Empire for using me I wanna get revenge on them" she is more "Do I really want to be used by these people after just being used by the empire?" ask yourself seriously if that was Lightning in that situation she would not have needed to be convinced by Locke/Edgar to join their noble fight.
The simple fact is Terra can be easily led into this situation by Locke and easily convinced to help the Returners portrays the fact that at the start of the game she is not strong in her decisions, nothing to do with her powers or how she ends up being an adoptive mother to many children.
I do not consider her a strong female protagonist. That said I do think she was a great protagonist.
There's still Yuna. And Ashe too but Square flat out refuses to admit she was the protagonist of XII.
wut r u talkin about vaan was main charecter portagnoist
everything is wrapped in gray
i'm focusing on your image
can you hear me in the void?
Wait, what? She's a great character, but she's not a great female character? What? I... am honestly perplexed. Why are the two mutually exclusive?
I think he meant that he doesn't consider her strong, mentally or physically, for a female character, but still a great female character even with her weakness. Could be wrong, but that's how I took it.
Obviously we differ on what it means to have a "strong character". I take that to mean have good characterisation, which is what is generally implied by the phrasing of "strong character", not that they are actually physically/mentally strong in any way.
When people complain about not having enough "strong female characters" in media, they don't mean that there aren't enough women who work out or whatever. They just mean that there aren't enough female characters that are actually characters, and not one-note cardboard cutouts.
Which is why I didn't understand the notion that she wasn't a strong female character, but she was a good character.
I think you're misinterpreting it. I read it as "she's not a strong female character (particularly at the start of the game), but she is still a great female character".
everything is wrapped in gray
i'm focusing on your image
can you hear me in the void?
Aye, I have been incessantly editing my post to explain my puzzlement. xD I was reading what I think of the term "strong female character" into the sentence. All is fine. :3
Just because Terra doesn't start out strong doesn't make her weak either. If anything you're denied character progression with Lightning because she's already the badass warrior, with Terra you actually see some progression and so what if she couldn't work up the nerve to face Kefka right away? You've never been scared before even though there was no reason to be? I'm going to assume you were because fear is an instinct that's impossible to shed. It's natural to be scared. The fact she found the courage near the end speaks volumes to me. You say yourself she builds her strength over time so already you contradict the claim she's not a strong protagonist.The fact that you consider her strong doesn't mean that she is.
For example she has this power that during the world of ruin she hides even though she has the strength to do something about Kefka even by herself but she doesn't... why? Because she lacks the mental conviction to do something about it... I mean sure she builds her strength up over time but... what final fantasy character can this not be said about?
Lightning however was a powerful warrior right from the get go. The story portrays her as the remorseless soldier who will not slow down for anything or anyone. She sets out to save Serah and she stops at nothing to see he will put into motion.
At the start of VI Terra is enslaved, then she needs rescuing by Locke, then the Returners seek to use her power and she isn't all "OMG I hate the Empire for using me I wanna get revenge on them" she is more "Do I really want to be used by these people after just being used by the empire?" ask yourself seriously if that was Lightning in that situation she would not have needed to be convinced by Locke/Edgar to join their noble fight.
The simple fact is Terra can be easily led into this situation by Locke and easily convinced to help the Returners portrays the fact that at the start of the game she is not strong in her decisions, nothing to do with her powers or how she ends up being an adoptive mother to many children.
I do not consider her a strong female protagonist. That said I do think she was a great protagonist.
Oh, but I forget. It only counts if you're physically strong all the time and beat people up. A character isn't allowed to show weakness, to be afraid, to need support from people, to be... human. Let's just have cardboard cutouts of former characters turned female who beats up everyone, that's a much better story.
Here's a perfect blog on the subject: http://dkoeker.wordpress.com/2013/07...le-characters/
Last edited by Ayen; 12-07-2013 at 11:25 PM.
First off I'll thank you for not putting words into my mouth, I never said she was weak.
As to Lightning's progression, she started off cold hard and doesn't care for anything other then her goal, throughout the game you see soften her will as she eventually begins to realise that things are better with a team of people who you can rely upon.
So what? You are answering me with so what... let me tell you about that what: People around her were suffering, being dominated by Kefka, being killed by Kefka allowing Kefka to impose his will on the world. Terra has the ability (note I don't just point my finger at Terra alone, but the entire crew who were languishing about after Kefka's victory) to do something about it but... doesn't and you can even complete the game without the rest of the languishing heroes... think about it, they set out to do something about the empire they got to the finishing line... then gave up. Tell me what was so different about Kefka from the time he played about with the statues to the time the heroes got off their asses and decided to stop the tyranny? The answer should be obvious: smurf all. Yes, I went there. I don't know about you but I always found this smurfing huge gaping hole to be one of the main reasons I don't even consider the game to be a great Final Fantasy game, let alone:
They can save the world right before the "World of Ruin" but instead they let the world go to trout, they decide that they don't need to stay together, this crack team of heroes, they decide once the airship has landed upon the following:
Terra: So... what do we do now? *watches vacantly while people around her disappear in some holy beam of light*
Locke: I don't know about you guys but I need to go treasure hunting! BYEEEEE!
Sabin: I need to go to a random village and wait for it to catch fire! YAY Vacation! YAY Fire!
Terra: That sounds awesome, after careful consideration, I am going to go to a random village and wait for all the parents in the village to disappear so I can become the unofficial mummy to everyone
Edgar: I think I'm going back to my castle for a while, I need a long rest after all that attempted world saving.
*few months later*
Celes: Hey guys, fancy going to beat up kefka?
Terra: I dunno, I got all these kids to look after
Sabin: Oh! Beating up Kefka! What an amazing idea! Count me in!!!
Locke: Oooo... I wonder what treasure he has?!?
Terra: Oh sure... I guess I should do something about him...
Yes I do say she is not strong, I mean, had it been Lightning in Terra's position she would not have waited to go and save the world, she would have gone off alone and damned her fear and the consequences and saved the world... THAT is a strong character, a strong protagonist who would have saved the world no matter what the cost.
When I say strong, I don't mean "physically strong all the time and beats people up"I mean strength of will, the determination to set something to right, ya know; like Lightning does right from saving her sister to fighting an endless battle against a foe who can never die?!?
Now your just being ridiculous, when did I ever say anything like that, again I will thank you for not trying to make me seem like this crazy fanboi you seem to be trying to make me out to be.
Allow me to state some fact about my opinion about the Final Fantasy XIII series: I don't think its a great series, sure I like Lightning, but to be some crazy defender of her the way you are about Terra... that's just totally wrong. I don't think XIII was that great, but then I don't think VI was the epic game you seem to believe it is.
All that happens in Final Fantasy XIII. All 3 parts and the novel. That is why she can be shown that strong. She has become so strong and was strong already when the first part began, had some important moments for her character and became even stronger.
The impression I got from your opening statement was that she wasn't strong because she didn't start out as such. That was the message behind my statement.First off I'll thank you for not putting words into my mouth, I never said she was weak.
Which is sadly the only real direction you could go from that starting point. Nothing wrong with it but some of that off-screen development would have been nice if done right.
I'm just saying I can understand the fear in that situation and that fear isn't always rational nor is it in itself a bad device to use with a character even if they're meant to be the hero. Admittedly it sounds like they could have executed that a hell of a lot better.
Isn't that ultimately what Terra did in the end?
I speak more in general with that and should have been more clear. I say it because everything I know about Lightning seems to be the casebook example of good intentions gone sour. Is she ever depicted overcoming any real fear when doing any of those things?When I say strong, I don't mean "physically strong all the time and beats people up"
That was spoken out of frustration and shouldn't have been said. I apologize.
I'm defending the notion that strength comes in more forms than what seems to be so popularly perceived in media and that the showing of reluctance and fear and other related weaknesses can still be existent in a strong protagonist. In hindsight I should have used Yuna to prove my point. Or drank some coffee before coming on.
I submit this as a peace offering:
Does it? I retract my statement then.All that happens in Final Fantasy XIII. All 3 parts and the novel. That is why she can be shown that strong. She has become so strong and was strong already when the first part began, had some important moments for her character and became even stronger.
You should read Episode Zero where she makes the promise to her mother and decides to become "Lightning". And Lightning Returns totally shows how much her character has developed. We see an angry Lightning, a smiling Lightning, a crying Lightning ... we see a really impressive character that deserves to be seen as what she is and not only her basics of Final Fantasy XIII. And as said, there she was already strong, but only because she already learned it before.
Well then, I'm gonna have to look in to that since it genuinely sounds like they tried to improve upon the first installment.
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