Well I just finished watching the original MSG anime. I have been talking about getting into Gundam for years and years but now I finally am doing it. I did watch G Gundam back in high school but...yeah, that's not a very good representation of the franchise as a whole. Not that it was bad - just not anything like the other series.
I thought MSG was a lot of cool ideas with squandered potential. Too much pointless action, an unlikable cast with a whiny bitch in Amuro and I didn't see what was so great about Char either. The Zabis were the stars of the show and Dozle Zabi has to have one of the best deaths in anime history. Kai also became a lot more likable as time went by.
Anyway, I intend to go through all of Universal Century that was dubbed into English. That leaves 08th MS Team, War in the Pocket, Stardust Memory and Char's Counterattack. Oh and F91 and Unicorn but I dunno when I'll get to those. After CCA, I plan to start the other continuities. I'm looking forward to Zeta a lot because it's THE UC anime according to people. I will either love it and praise Camille as the best protagonist ever or I will loathe it and regard Camille as unbearably whiny.
But anyway, I made this thread for a specific reason. I post on four other forums (technically five but the fifth one is full of the worst kind of UC fans and I hate all of them) and right now there is a tie in fan opinion that I've seen. Two boards are for Wing being terrible and SEED being at least okay. Then there are two other boards for Wing being pretty good and SEED is the Devil. I suspect this conflict of opinion is due to the popularity of both shows - Wing in the West and SEED in the East. When something is much beloved and you "just don't get it," you tend to become very vocal and very negative.
So, Gundam fans of EOFF (if you even exist) what are your favorite Gundam series?
Wing is great for the nostolgia. As a Gundam series as a whole to go in line with the others, it's okay. The gundam's themselves are great but the show is a little meh. I, of course, love Gundam Wing. I have the box sets. Going back and watching it I realize how bad the dubbing and editing is but still, I love it.
I've watched 08 MS team and the original and then some of G gundam and I've watched Seed.
Seed is good. It starts slow but it gets good later, if I recall (it's been years). I tried to watch the one after that? Watched like 3 episodes. There's another Seed, Seed Destiny? Or something like that. Haven't seen that one. Haven't kept up on my Gundaming lately.
If you ever play the Dynasty Warriors: Gundam games, play the 3rd. It's the best combat wise and character list.
I have I believe all main line Gundam stuff (ie. not SD or Gunpla) except Unicorn, I've only watched the original and a bit of Zeta. I also have the 3 DWundam games, and they are quite fun~
I've only watched War in the Pocket and Wing, and they're both pretty alright. War in the Pocket was a lot more srsface than Wing was, if I am remembering rightly.
I could never get into MSG, Wing blew my adolescent mind away and I still think it's pretty good as an inverse re-imagining for the original MSG series.
I have a few boxes of G Gundam and I enjoy that series a lot if only because it's a lot of fun.
I haven't seen a lot of the other series but definitely in the mood to try some now!
I love me some Wing and Endless Waltz. My original name on here was TrowaBartonIV although it should have been LT. Zechs or Miliardo Peacecraft or something since he's my favotite character with Duo close behind then Trowa.
Tallgeese is my all time favorite mech. I also love Tallgeese III. II was for that loser Treys
i've seen wing and its great for the first season or so
endless waltz is pretty good, especially when RELENA's all 'im not a pacifist' and slaps that little monster
anyway i really like Unicorn
best music from what i've heard, and i like all the subs and dubs out so far. only one episode left! great production quality. some of it is a little predictable, but most of it is interesting.
Yeah, it's a series I could never get into, though I loved Endless Waltz.
The exception is G Gundam, which I love. No, it's not very good, but it's so over the top and silly I can't help but get behind the massive amounts of Cheese that series is.
I like to give a bit of background so skip all this if you're not interested... Wing is a part of my generation that I missed out on due to not having Cable. And when I did have Cable, I watched Dragonball Z. I gotta say - I was cheated. I am gonna blame Akira Toriyama and the people at Funimation for my being as stupid as I am as an adult. I really, REALLY wish I had watched Wing instead back in the day...
Now, I did watch the first episode of Wing before I really started on the series. I dunno if I've mentioned this before but I don't think I covered it in much detail. The first episode of Wing has only one rival in "grabbing me" and that is Zeta. The first episode of Zeta, Kamille is just punching everybody and stealing a car and you don't have any context for any of it and you just think "this is NUTS!!" Well Wing had a similarly memorable first episode. Not least of all because of the fantastic OP and ED. Gotta say, I don't see why they replaced the OP for like, eight episodes. I liked the visuals better in OP2 but I was so in love and used to Just Communication that I kinda resented the new OP.
Anyway, getting back to the first episode of Wing, you got Heero killing people while laughing and then the whole basic premise of him being undercover at school and I was highly intrigued. In fact, since it took me so long to actually watch Wing, I started to formulate my own ideas on what the series might entail. I was thinking he'd go to school by day and fight in Gundams by night and that the other Pilots would also go to school as cover. I guess maybe I was being influenced by the naysayers in this imagining. Wing certainly has no shortage of those...
With that in mind, let's start where I think most people want me to start - Gundam Wing compared to other Gundams. I was initially put off Gundam for many years on account of its fanbase. I saw the horrid treatment SEED fans get on some places and from what I hear, Wing fans got it even worse back in the day. The Gundam fandom is one of very, VERY strong opinions and Go dhelp you if you stumble upon a fellow Gundam fan who doesn't like the series you like. But yes, I started Gundam largely because I was sick of seeing all these debates I could not join. I wanted to finally be able to form my own answers and opinions. To this end I've watched...what, 50 episodes for SEED, another 50 for Destiny, 26 for 00, 42 for MSG, 50 for Zeta, 49 for Wing and like another 20 for MS Team and Stardust Memory. (yes I know I need to finish 00 and War in the Pocket and F91 and read the Crossbone Manga....) It's been a long, long trip here.
So what is my opinion of Wing and how does it stack up to other Gundams? I think Gundam, at its core, is trying to be about real people. I know it's supposed to be the father of the real robot genre but to my mind all the Gundam shows I've seen have been trying to represent real people in real drama. It has become so "down to Earth" over the years that I think it was driven rigth into the ground; six feet under in fact. I mean, just look at SEED and the crew of the Archangel. Does anybody look at Sai and say "hey! There's a guy I want to be!"? Or Fllay, do people look at her and say "wow, that character blew me away!"? Or Kira himself, are people left in awe by him? Well if anyone does have these opinions, I must respectfully disagree. The SEED cast was so "down to Earth" that I found them boring and unremarkable. Ya know what I find ironic though? 00 was clearly trying for the most realistic setting of any Gundam yet but the pilots of Celestial Being don't fit in that at all. Allelujah with his multiple personalities, Setsuna and his wanting to be a robot, whatever was going on with Tieria - they all felt kinda out-of-place in this super-realistic backdrop. I almost feel like Kira and friends belonged more in 00 because they're like Saji and Louise IMO.
Anyway I'm getting off track... Each Gundam series strives for these realistic characters and good writing or bad writing, that's their objective. Gundam Wing though? It presents you with five larger-than-life figures dispersed around a larger-than-life setting. I enjoy realism, I enjoy characters ho go through everyday struggles but I would be lying if I said I wasn't attracted to this larger-than-life quality of the Wing Pilots. They are action heroes, they are archetypes, they do some truly insane things...and I love every bit of it! Heero tearing up that invitation from Relena is more memorable to me than most things Setsuna or Amuro did. (Well apart from the plane stunt in Zeta) Everything done in Wing is done with a certain stylized flare that makes it stand out to me. Comparing Wing to a stage play is a perfect analogy because a play can touch you as effectively as any "realistic drama" but at the same time it can also imprint on you so much more effectively.
Maybe I'm a simpleton. I did enjoy SEED and I loved Zeta but all I can say is that Wing did things just so differently from any other Gundam series that I find the characters unforgettable in a way that the other series can't really replicate. That's not to say all the characters are better - hell no. Sorry Heero, Kamille is still my favorite Gundam hero. But by making sure you don't forget them, the Wing cast is obviously doing something right. I can tell you right now, I didn't remember weird glasses guy in 00 was named Tieria but I doubt I'll forget the names Wufei, Trowa, Quatre or Duo.
Now...moving onto Wing itself.
Heero was a great protagonist. As Relena observed, he became much "less abrasive" as the series progressed. He never lost his detached edge but that's all it was by the end, an edge to his much more personable and emotional character. A mask or facade if you will. I definitely enjoyed his relationship with Relena and I'll get to her in a bit. I guess it might be considered cliche that cold emotionless soldier has his heart melted by a fair and kind maiden but...it's a cliche because it works!
Next to Heero, I think the Pilot that stands out most is Duo. Duo is he funny man, oozing a natural charisma that our taciturn MC can't really provide. In fact, he's pretty much "the life" of the Pilots. Quatre is open enough but between Heero and Wufei and Trowa, especially at the start, you probably aren't going to get very lively or friendly conversations. So Duo exists and he spices things up with some great wit. The comparison I heard earlier that he thinks he's a mix of Batman and James Bond fits him to the letter. I guess on the whole he probably has the least development of any of the Pilots but you don't care because he's just so damned likable!
In third place comes Chang Wufei. Yes yes, everyone's "favorite" Arrogant Kung Fu guy. I'll admit going into the series, I was paying particularly close attention to Wufei because of his unpopularity online. I wanted to see where it was all stemming from. If Heero was abrasive than Wufei is...well, let's just say he's a much higher number of sandpaper. Or is it a lower number? I'm not a carpenter. The point is Wufei is not a guy you're supposed to love like Duo but he does display a level of emotion that I did not expect and it all happened much sooner than I expected as well. Episode 8 in fact and that fateful duel would direct his character, and even Treize's, for the rest of the anime. After this incident he stops the heartless murdering he had been engaging in, like bowing up the barracks of those sleeping soldiers. He becomes rather...normal I guess up until the second half of the series when he goes totally rogue and starts attacking everyone. What I like about Wufei is that while his base motivation is one of revenge, his actual character is defined by his attempts to find Integrity/Justice. A war has to have a Good Side and a Bad Side in his view. He wants to believe the Strong are the Right but it's not so simple. Treize, in one act, undermined his entire world view and he arguably spends the rest of the series trying to re-establish it.
Tied for last place Quatre and Trowa. I don't dislike either but they both made very little impression on me. That's hardly anything new - there were several characters I was meh on in both MSG, Zeta, SEED and 00.
Let's look to the ladies now before i get to antagonists. Relena is...I'll say it, she's probably my favorite main Gundam female. She undergoes more character development than most Gundam MCs and she certainly changes more than any of the Pilots in my view. The spoiled Relena worried about her birthday soon has much more pressing matters to worry about but she never runs away from them. She embraces each new challenge with more bravery than anyone could expect. She goes from the girl who recklessly tried to avenge her father by murdering his assassin to the chief spokesperson of pacifism. And yet it all feels very logical and sensible. She is a person you can believe people would follow, not only because of her personality, but because she is the heir to the much respected Peacecraft legacy. And of course her and Heero's "love story" was a high point of Wing. It started off really strange there as I commented during my watch but by the end it made me go d'awwww.
Next comes Noin. Ah Noin, you look so sweet and you sound so sweet and I kinda wish you had done more. She's always there but she does very little of substance, kinda like the Captain in SEED. She had some good moments in the beginning and towards the end but I would be lying if I said I was completely satisfied with her role. Her ending with Zechs was very sweet and touching but I just wish she had done more up to that point.
Hilde and Catherin are both very sweet and I really liked Catherine's interactions with Amnesiac Trowa. In fact, I think my favorite part of the Endless Waltz ending montage was teh bit with Cathy and Trowa at the circus. But as actual characters, neither stood out very much for me. They were side characters after all.
Moving onto the bad guys and gals...Treize Khushrenada is joining Paptimus Scirocco at the top of my Gundam Villains List. Very different characters in most ways but a common trait is there polite and soft-spoken demeanor and the fact I was constantly waiting for both of them to make their move. Speaking of which, I do have to voice something that has been nagging at my mind. Was all of Treize's Plan...planned? Did he predict Relena coming to power in Romefeller when he stepped down? Was he truly sincere in how he wanted to be a "Loser"? I'm really not sure. I almost kind of wish he winged it and came up with all this after he resigned. Just too many things that he could not have possibly predicted took place during this time and if he had some grand scheme all dependent on them then...bleh. Either way, Trieze conducted himself with grace and honor in a way I have not seen any other Gundam antagonist. He is a villain you can admire in almost every way even while disliking his ideals.
Now onto Zechs... Zechs, or Char on Fast Forward. I want to say this here and now, I never liked MSG Char. I don't know why others do. He's rather uninspired as far as I can see. I WANT REVENGE!!! And don't even get me started on killing Garma or the cliche Evil Laughter as he did it. Char might have developed into a multi-layered character after MSG but original Char was a repulsive piece of filth with no depth as far as I could see. Speaking of killing Garma, what a reprehensible act and demonstrative of his lack of honor. Much like his eternal friend, Zechs is a man defined by his honor and his conscience. He abandons OZ when it becomes clear they are turning out monsters like Alex and Mueller. He demonstrates a great love for his subordinates as well. Zechs, at the start, is a person you can respect. I hope nobody on Earth respects MG Char.
And as I noted earlier there is pretty much no Quattro Phase. Yes, Quattro was a diplomat and so was Milliardo...for all of two or three episodes. And it's not like being a diplomat defines Quattro at all. After detesting Char in MSG I really liked Quattro. Why? Because he was a kind mentor to Kamille, a kid in desperate need of guidance. He seemed to be genuinely trying to do the right thing and he was assisting good people. I think that sincere mentor role is what defines Quattro and Milliardo has nothing whatsoever like it in Wing.
Now was his Counterattack Phase sudden? It seems so. But if people can excuse Char's Counterattack Phase, why not Milliardo? It's not like he lost anything less than Char did. He saw his Kingdom rise again to prominence and then be destroyed yet again. His feelings of powerlessness must have been unendurable to relive the same nightmare again. Imagine if Char had to experience Zeon being reformed into the Principality...oh wait. Anyway, Zechs not only had to struggle with the Sanc Kingdom falling, he saw his beloved sister, who he had invested all his hopes in, joining Romefeller. Even if she was trying to steer it towards a better direction, she was still working for the source of all misery in the setting. The cheery on the top of all of this is the revelation that he was working towards Treize's goal all along. It wasn't all as sudden or radical as it first appears. Like I said, Imyself was disconcerted by his suddenly heading White Fang but I feel all the pieces come together in a satisfying fashion.
Now we had our two major male baddies, let's look to our two major female antagonists. Lady Une is kinda in the same realm as Trowa or Quatre in that I don't really like or dislike her. I have no strong opinion on her one way or another. There is one area I want to talk about her and praise her but that comes later.
The other female antagonist is of course Dorothy. To begin, I love that her name i Dorothy. I know it's probably not at all intentional but Dorothy is such a wholesome name. It's associated with the star of Wizard of Oz of course. (wait...Wizard of Oz...OZ...maybe it was intentional. I literally just thought of this. lol) The sweet flowery name of Dorothy you would never associate with this creepy little girl who extols the virtues of war from her introduction. But I have commented on how unnerving she is to me since the beginning and I think she almost single-handedly makes the second half of the anime. She has so much presence even though all she does is talk to Relena and Milliardo. She's not even in a leading position like Treize or Zechs but I was always puzzled over waht her deal was and that stayed true right until the end. The heart-to-heart with Quatre and Trowa, seeing that cold and intimidating exterior break, was really powerful to me. I kept waiting for her to pop back up in Endless Waltz and when she did I fanboyed. Kinda wish she had done more but it's perfect for her character that she's moved away from the battlefield more than any of the others. Quite honestly I'd say she rivals Relena for Best Female of Wing and they are certainly two of the best women I've seen in a Gundam series.
My Character Ranking would be something like...
Relena
Dorothy
Heero
Treize
Duo
Wufei
Zechs
Noin
The first three are interchangeable.
There is one aspect of the story I want to cover and I think it's the most important. The accusation that the Wing Pilots accomplished nothing is apparently kinda uncommon, or even taht they are unnecessary on the whole.
Wing is not an epic tale of the hero conquering the villain. This is not Amruo smashing Char or Kira defeating Rau. The point of Wing...is the journey. We need look no further than Wing's Origin-like manga and its title. "Glory of Losers." We also need look no further than Treize's speech to the Duke. Hell, I'm sure it's brought up several other times in the anime too but I can't remember every instance. The fact Heero and the others didn't accomplish their mission of saving the colonies or taking down OZ is completely and utterly irrelevant. It is the struggle itself that is important and whether you come out alive or dead, on top or on bottom, is never the point. The Pilots' spirit, Relena's spirit, even as they are constantly unsuccessful, is what is supposed to speak to the viewer. You are inspired by their determination and resilience because it is exactly that determination and resilience that makes humans, even as they are killign each other, beautiful creatures.
Actually that's something else I want to touch on and I'm glad I remembered. I almost forgot to give a little paragraph to my thoughts on this and to ask your guys' opinions as well.
Do you think Wing has a different view of war than other Gundam series?
To my eyes, I think it does. Every Gundam, those encouraging war are pretty much evil, no ifs, ands or buts. They might be varying degrees of evil but War is portrayed as the ultimate evil and the tool of the vilest humanity has to offer. Wars are started by people like Ghren or Azrael or even Allejandro. These are all selfish and despicable people who kill for their own gain. But Treize and Zechs are not the same. They do many Not Nice things but I think Treize's extensive thoughts and Dorothy's multiple conversations with Relena are definitely supposed to convey to us a more...grey view of war and fighting in general. It's not a good thing and of itself but as an expression of human will and desire, it is sort of beautiful. War should never be encouraged but it is a part of human consciousness and it would take rewriting that consciousness to get rid of it.
Now the soundtrack of Wing was excellent and only rivaled by Zeta IMO. Just want to list some of my favorite tracks.
Gundam Wing's dub is...I'd give it a B, maybe even a B-. There were some very awkward delivery a lot of the time and a lot of the side characters kinda sucked. The B is based on the strength of the main cast, both good guys and bad. Of them all, I'd say Lady Une is the best. (like I said earlier, this is what i was gonna compliment her for) Her cold, Evil Une voice was perfect but then she could be equally as great as Good Une. After her Heero, Duo, Treize, Zechs, Relena and Dorothy are probably my favorites. No real order for any of them. I have to say this though, as painful as it is, Ted Cole's Wufei could have been a lot better. I first heard him s Durandal and I think the reason he was a lot better there is because Durandal rarely emotes. He's always calm and in control. Ted has that problem Steve Staley (Banagher, Shiro) has where when he tries to emote he tends to just sound whiny and/or really fake. This wasn't true all the time - he got better as the series progressed thankfully but there were some definite rough patches. I would honestly say SEED is still probably the best Gundam dub I've heard overall just because conversations, both significant and insignificant ones, flow more naturally.
And...phew. I think that's everything. I guess all that's left is for my updated Gundam Rankings.
1. Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam
2. Gundam Wing
3. Gundam SEED/Gundam 00.
4. Gundam 00/Gundam SEED
5. Mobile Suit Gundam
6. 08th MS Team
7. SEED Destiny
8. Stardust Memory
Zeta is still Reigning Champion but Wing did well for itself.
And that's all from me ladies and gents. I think it's time for bed.
Oh and Endless Waltz? Meh. I like the new Wing Zero and I can see why it's a lot of people's favorite MS design. Other than that and how touchy feely the ending was, I was indifferent. Treize's daughter was another Quess to me and the plot seemed kinda half-assed. I'm glad Zechs and Noin are together and Heero totally gave up fighting though. But, again, the ending was the only memorable part for me.
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undam games, and they are quite fun~
