Why does SE believe that people don't like JPRGs?

[Dante WolfWood]

When has SE ever been in touch with their fanbase?

[Loony BoB]

I know you're probably kidding around, but: It shouldn't matter if it improves the reception and reviews of the games to the point that more people buy it. I mean, they spent that much time with Jihl and then they killed her off.

They didn't have to design a moveset for her, or animations for every attack, etcetera.

A playable character is a lot of resources. It's the same reason we don't get hidden characters any more. They don't want to put in all that effort for characters some people might not see.

My point stands regardless - if the reception of the game improves dramatically because of the inclusion of such moments, it will pay for itself.

In the meantime, I'll be laughing at all the people who say "Square is the mainstay of JRPGs" and playing all the fantastic games that ATLUS and Nintendo have been rolling out lately. Square hasn't been the genre leader for JRPGs in a while. That doesn't mean the genre is dead, it just means other people have picked up the slack.

I don't think any other developers have picked up the slack. Ni no Kuni aside, I can't think of any recently released AAA-quality JRPG that has done considerably well for itself.

[Skyblade]

I know you're probably kidding around, but: It shouldn't matter if it improves the reception and reviews of the games to the point that more people buy it. I mean, they spent that much time with Jihl and then they killed her off.

They didn't have to design a moveset for her, or animations for every attack, etcetera.

A playable character is a lot of resources. It's the same reason we don't get hidden characters any more. They don't want to put in all that effort for characters some people might not see.

My point stands regardless - if the reception of the game improves dramatically because of the inclusion of such moments, it will pay for itself.

Agreed, but good luck trying to get Square to actually understand that concept.

In the meantime, I'll be laughing at all the people who say "Square is the mainstay of JRPGs" and playing all the fantastic games that ATLUS and Nintendo have been rolling out lately. Square hasn't been the genre leader for JRPGs in a while. That doesn't mean the genre is dead, it just means other people have picked up the slack.

I don't think any other developers have picked up the slack. Ni no Kuni aside, I can't think of any recently released AAA-quality JRPG that has done considerably well for itself.

True, but I can't think of that many "AAA-quality" games of any genre that I actually want to play. Mostly because that term seems to be restricted to only console games with at least 20 million in the development budget.

There have been plenty of AAA QUALITY handheld games. Even more AA quality handheld games that are still enjoyable and well worth playing. We're getting more on the way, from a ton of developers.

If JRPGs want to go back to consoles, they'll have to actually do well there. But I'd say Persona 5 and Xenoblade Chronicles X are going to be the ones the actually decide the fate of the JRPG on the console market. Not Square.

[Loony BoB]

There have been plenty of AAA QUALITY handheld games. Even more AA quality handheld games that are still enjoyable and well worth playing. We're getting more on the way, from a ton of developers.

AAA + Handheld for me do not compute. AAA for me is, simply put, an incredibly high quality game. The likes of Crisis Core and Uncharted: Golden Abyss still don't scratch on the surface of a good console game with a fully realised world.

If JRPGs want to go back to consoles, they'll have to actually do well there. But I'd say Persona 5 and Xenoblade Chronicles X are going to be the ones the actually decide the fate of the JRPG on the console market. Not Square.

But they aren't going to be mass marketed, so they won't decide the fate. I can't see either of those games getting the marketing required to "decide the fate of the JRPG on the console market" - right now the fate is already decided - it's a niche thing (and niche will always be around, you don't truly kill off a genre, it just becomes niche). You need an FFVII level of impact to step back out of the niche area. I don't think Persona 5 and Xenoblade Chronicles are a the point that they will be talked about by everyone in the world, because these kind of games simply appear in the background and few new people pick them up when they are released.

I mean, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm a JRPG fan and I haven't touched either the Persona series or the Xeno series. There was one of them that I was quite interested in but they didn't even release it in the UK.

[Skyblade]

There have been plenty of AAA QUALITY handheld games. Even more AA quality handheld games that are still enjoyable and well worth playing. We're getting more on the way, from a ton of developers.

AAA + Handheld for me do not compute. AAA for me is, simply put, an incredibly high quality game. The likes of Crisis Core and Uncharted: Golden Abyss still don't scratch on the surface of a good console game with a fully realised world.

Taking that definition, then, what was the last AAA JRPG you played? Because Bravely Default, all by its little lonesome, had a more fully realized world than any console game I've played in a decade.

If JRPGs want to go back to consoles, they'll have to actually do well there. But I'd say Persona 5 and Xenoblade Chronicles X are going to be the ones the actually decide the fate of the JRPG on the console market. Not Square.

But they aren't going to be mass marketed, so they won't decide the fate. I can't see either of those games getting the marketing required to "decide the fate of the JRPG on the console market" - right now the fate is already decided - it's a niche thing (and niche will always be around, you don't truly kill off a genre, it just becomes niche). You need an FFVII level of impact to step back out of the niche area. I don't think Persona 5 and Xenoblade Chronicles are a the point that they will be talked about by everyone in the world, because these kind of games simply appear in the background and few new people pick them up when they are released.

I mean, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm a JRPG fan and I haven't touched either the Persona series or the Xeno series. There was one of them that I was quite interested in but they didn't even release it in the UK.

Nintendo has been getting a lot better with their marketing, and with their support of JRPGs, since Operation Rainfall succeeded. They're advertising the games more, offering cross promotions with other games (as they did with Fire Emblem Awakening and Shin Megami Tensei IV), and supporting the developers more for creating them.

Game marketing has shifted substantially since I was a kid. I'm not even sure how the majority of the games are advertised or marketed anymore, so I can't say for sure how Nintendo is doing in comparison to others. I find out about games mostly through reviewers/previewers, official developer websites, and some very active posters on here. But that's the same for every genre. If I stuck to just the games seen in TV or magazine ads... Well, let's just say I'm glad I live in a world where there are more games than just those.

[Mirage]

I know you're probably kidding around, but: It shouldn't matter if it improves the reception and reviews of the games to the point that more people buy it. I mean, they spent that much time with Jihl and then they killed her off.

I wish was, but sadly it is at least partially true. Skyblade already elaborated on it for me. Don't forget that they also probably use motion capture, and you'd need a lot more voicework for someone who joins your party. Although, if someone is killed off halfway, they won't need to do as many lines for that character as if he or she stayed alive through the entire game, but voice acting is still a big reason why you don't have a lot of optional characters anymore, or even big casts of playable characters.

Hopefully, that is a problem that can be solved when we get really good voice synthesizing software. It's starting to get good, but it's still got a sizable way to go. I imagine it'll be good enough to be used on random NPC or minor plot characters soon, which would free up resources to spend money on more VAs for the main cast, or even add an optional character or two. Voice synthesizing is technology that is also desirable outside of gaming, so lots of research and development is spent on such tech even if game developers don't currently plan on using it.

[Del Murder]

To be fair, since midway through the PS2 era, JRPGs really don't sell that well outside of Japan. That includes Bravely Default, as the vast majority of it's mere one million sales were in Japan.

Yeah, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we exist in a small corner of the Western world where we are all JRPG fans. But put all the FF fansites together and you get what, a few thousand people buying games? It takes more than that to support games. The vast majority of gamers are not JRPG fanatics. There was a brief surge during the PS1 era with FFVII but that was more the exception than the rule.

So I do agree that SE has been ignoring its base over here to some extent but at the same time, their estimates are grounded in a cold reality that JRPGs just aren't as popular as other types of games. At the end of the day (for better or worse) they want to sell as many games as possible.

[Mirage]

Thankfully, most RPG fans don't actually post on forums Even if the online communities are pretty small, you still get like a million copies sold even for niche titles like Tales games. Well, some of them anyway.

As for bravely default, you're wrong. Japan was the best selling region, but the actual breakdown for japan, NA and EU is 440k, 310k and 160k.

[Wolf Kanno]

Those numbers are actually pretty good considering the game got little publicity outside of Japan. JRPGs nowadays tend to work more on word of mouth much like back in the day.

[Loony BoB]

Taking that definition, then, what was the last AAA JRPG you played? Because Bravely Default, all by its little lonesome, had a more fully realized world than any console game I've played in a decade.

Lightning Returns, probably. Not sure if it can be classed as an AAA, really, but if it can't be then FFXIII (I'm not including MMOs). I hope to play Ni no Kuni, which I class as either an AAA game or extremely close to it.

Nintendo has been getting a lot better with their marketing, and with their support of JRPGs, since Operation Rainfall succeeded. They're advertising the games more, offering cross promotions with other games (as they did with Fire Emblem Awakening and Shin Megami Tensei IV), and supporting the developers more for creating them.

As good as their marketing might be, I have not heard of Operation Rainfall, I don't ever see any marketing for Fire Emblem Awakening and I couldn't say I know of anything about it that separates it from other Fire Emblem games (literally, the only part of FE games I recognise is the FE bit, I never see much about them) and Shin Megami Tensei IV is something I haven't heard of (same goes for I, II and III). If this is good marketing, I'm clueless to it. It may be that they are advertised a bit better for Nintendo fans, but as a gamer in general, the only recent JRPG I know about for a Nintendo console is The Last Story.

Game marketing has shifted substantially since I was a kid. I'm not even sure how the majority of the games are advertised or marketed anymore, so I can't say for sure how Nintendo is doing in comparison to others. I find out about games mostly through reviewers/previewers, official developer websites, and some very active posters on here. But that's the same for every genre. If I stuck to just the games seen in TV or magazine ads... Well, let's just say I'm glad I live in a world where there are more games than just those.

TV, magazines, newspapers, posters in stores, that kind of thing. I'm glad I live in a world where there are more games than just those kind of games, too, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if a developer wants to smash JRPGs back into the market as anything but a niche thing, then it will need to have an AAA budget for marketing. I'm not talking about simply being a good game, I'm talking about being a good game that is marketed to enough people to allow it to be a big deal, just as they did with Final Fantasy VII when it came out. The FF series is the only JRPG series I have ever seen marketing for in the mediums I mentioned. Other than that, I only see the occasional review of a JRPG and that's it.

[Mirage]

Smt4 doesn't even have an European release date, so that might be a reason why you haven't heard of it.

[Loony BoB]

No further questions, your honour.

[Psychotic]

Loony BoB is right - the JRPG is not an AAA mainstream medium anymore, it's become much more of a niche genre. Tastes and preferences have changed and I think the tastes of the average gamer have "matured" as the average age has increased. If you look at the SNES and PS generations of gaming, JRPGs and Platformers were huge deals and AAA games. Now? JRPG is a niche genre and platformers are now consigned to indie releases, with the exception of Mario which certainly isn't the powerhouse it once was. Conversely, look at the FPS. Originally considered to be PC and PC only, it has now taken the console world by storm and is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I'm not going to win any fans for saying this, but I think JRPGs are seen as babyish and kidlike. Anime in general is. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's certainly the perception. Indeed a lot of the JRPGs last generation had teenage characters and that dorky awful Pokemon style "WAAAAAAAH!" humour. What I saw of Star Ocean 4 was skin crawling, and search YouTube for "Infinite Undiscovery Dinner Dance". I'm not interested in hearing that these were the worst JRPGs ever or whether or not there were serious JRPGs to counteract this so if you're planning on listing them at me, use your time more productively. I'm saying these are examples of JRPGs from this generation with some real teenage and immature elements to the writing and tarnish the reputation of JRPGs as being a serious game. To me, when I look at the cover of something like Tales of Xillia and see it covered with anime characters I am immediately put off because of the expectation that it's going to be dumb. Maybe I'm missing out, but likewise I doubt I'm the only one.

Square have said they are still aiming Final Fantasy at teens - that's a huge mistake. Kids and teens these days expect a different experience out of games. Have you seen them play? They skip all the cutscenes and just get right into the action. It's not like our generation where we didn't have anything better. I was 11 when I picked up my first FF. Probably the most popular game (if it's not CoD!) for that age bracket is Minecraft. No cutscenes, no story, just hop right in and play. A JRPG by comparison to Minecraft or CoD is creeping death and kids don't want to know.

Japan itself certainly isn't the King of Video Games in the west. Remember when it used to be this mystical foreign land when you were a kid? All the best and newest games and tech would be there! Zelda, Mario, Nintendo, Pokemon, Sega, oh god! Wooooooow! Japan was the only show in town. Now all the popular games for kids are Western. If there were western powerhouse developers when we were kids, would Japanese games and culture have been as popular as it became? Who can say?

Maybe if a JRPG for adults - and wasn't targeted at anime lovers, sorry guys - came out it'd get more respect and be an AAA title but I don't know if many exist. Certainly I would be more interested anyway. And because I know EoFF has a whimsical boner, adult doesn't mean serious. Scrubs is for adults and is whimsical as trout. I don't know, maybe it's just Japanese humour that culturally is immature here. I think it will be a niche genre from now on though, and for Square it's a case of either sticking to what you know and appease your ageing fanbase, or else gamble and try for something new to expand. They've chosen the latter option. I wonder if they're in a Catch-22 position though.

[Loony BoB]

Agree with pretty much everything you've said, and they have been in a warped kind of Catch 22 situation for a long time now. They are always damned if they do, damned if they don't... but not completely damned. They also almost always win. Every new release sees a lot of old fans disappointed but also gets them new fans at the same time. The next release will see new fans again, and will probably see a lot of old fans disappointed. Still, the series fanbase grows because of this.

People say they are "living off the brand" which is entirely true. They were living off the brand since Final Fantasy II came out. There was no reason to tie the first two games together in a series other than financial reasons. They could have called it "The Wild Rose Rebellion" if they wanted to. Having some kind of romantic notion that they were not living off the brand at FFVI or FFVII "because they were good games" is silly.

I remain convinced that they are doing the right thing in continually trying to innovate and find that new style that can break the market, and I remain convinced that SE are the most likely company out there to break JRPGs back into a mainstream thing.

[Shauna]

To me, when I look at the cover of something like Tales of Xillia and see it covered with anime characters I am immediately put off because of the expectation that it's going to be dumb. Maybe I'm missing out, but likewise I doubt I'm the only one.

What doesn't help this attitude is the price of JRPGs, because of limited releases.

Tales of Vesperia, for example, many many months following release was still over £40. Preowned prices are still huge compared to other similarly aged games. People are not going to take a chance on a game they're skeptical of, despite hearing good things, if they're pouring a lot of money into it. The same attitude comes with a lot of games, but most other games will significantly drop in price after a period so even if people are a little bit wary, they don't have to worry about throwing down over £30 on something they might not like.

I have picked up some terrible games and some fantastic games, games I wouldn't even look at normally, because they were like £5 preowned. With JRPGs you often do not have that luxury (if you even spot a JRPG in a high street store, they're like gold dust unless they're FF or DQ).