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Thread: Controversies in Games Media

  1. #76
    Crazy Scot. Cid's Knight Shauna's Avatar
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    I can sense that this topic is going to be toeing some lines.

    Remember to keep it civil guys, I don't want to have to start deleting posts.

  2. #77
    *permanent smite* Spuuky's Avatar
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    Skyblade, I'm anti-GG because there is a demonstrably massive number of absolute troutheads who support it and use it as a weapon. But I acknowledge that the core concept that it allegedly represents is a good thing and that fighting for those ends is valuable and some members of the movement have accomplished good things.

    So, there; you can't say you've never seen it, now. It's a movement whose stated principles are good but who are tainted by a significant majority of anonymous assholes.

    People who still want to achieve further gains in the field should probably distance themselves from it for this reason; just as it is disingenuous to say "I use this swastika because of its long history as a symbol of luck in the eastern tradition" or "I fly this flag of the confederacy to represent honor," so it is with knowingly and intentionally tying yourself to GamerGate; these things are tainted by their association and it means enough of the wrong things to enough people that you know EXACTLY what you're saying to those people if you choose to use those symbols.

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shauna View Post
    I can sense that this topic is going to be toeing some lines.

    Remember to keep it civil guys, I don't want to have to start deleting posts.
    Thanks Shauna. I like having my space to rant whenever a developer does something boneheaded, greedy, and anti-consumer. I'd hate to have that taken away by something as ancient as GamersGate

    And while I do appreciate the history lesson, it's also definitely getting a little too heated

    GamersGate is one of those things where if they want it to remain, and be seen as a positive, they'd have to "take it back". Whether they like it or not, public perception is negative. There's not a lot of widely known variables for the positive aspects. People know about the sexism, they know about the doxxing, the threats and bullying. And expecting us to dig farther than what tidbits the biased news outlets were providing is sadly asking a little too much

    I'm sure there are likely one or two upstanding KKK members. But we shouldn't have to be the ones to find them. I wasn't aware TotalBiscuit was labeling himself as a GG. I appreciate his opinion and I know he's always wanted the things they're after. But he'd strive for that even without their movement. So I can easily see him outside the bad press

    It's different with how I view feminists. Probably an exposure thing. The man-hating fem-nazis are way more rare in my experience than the level headed legitimate equality loving ones. And I also know tons of dude femenists who can't be fem-nazis. But I also know a lot of people want equality for women, but also hate feminists due to perception and believe most of them are crazy man-hating fem-nazis. Fortunately, it's kinda split. That's not a majority opinion, so feminists don't have to try too hard to "take it back". There's just a lot of outliers and misinformation

    Obviously there's a lot of outliers and misinformation about GG. But unfortunately for them, they're not a big enough group for it to have the same situation as femenism. People in their group messed up and tainted the image. Somebody would have to try real hard to show positive examples of their cause, and wear the name like a badge and go on one heck of a campaign. And when GG "ended" I do recall a lot of people saying they appreciated what they wanted, but did not want to associate with the name and would find other means to strive for those goals rather than associate with that group/name

    So likely this only got heated due to semantics. People don't like GG for valid and invalid reasons. But they do want transparencey and integrity and responsibility in games journalism



  4. #79
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    If there's one thing I learned from that whole mess (and the whole mess of SJWs and Alt-Rights that came at the same time and has snowballed way further than it should have since) it's that both sides can be approximately as bad as each other, and both believe that they're totally pure and innocent and the other is the personification of evil. Or at the very least that the other guys are "so much worse".
    GG had a very legit official purpose that I actually agree with (though at the time I didn't dare say so because it'd get you dogpiled on most forums as "siding with misogynists" - this was the general, quite understandable "side with the one that looks more lefty by default" internet hivemind) but also a lot of very horrible people and actual misogynists who doxx and harass.
    Anti-GG meanwhile, had some very legit complaints about GG, but also a lot of very horrible people and actual misandrists who doxxed and tried to get people fired from their jobs for saying something they disagree with.

    If you're on a "side" and believe your side is completely innocent or is "nowhere near as bad as the other" and are about to jump on me wanting proof to be dug out for yours, you are part of the problem - that problem is tribalism. (With apologies to Zidane)
    (Um, no offence though. Just try to see other people as human beings. I think it's like when we're behind the wheel, we're like "grrrr other guys is evil nasty stupid driver" and others are like that with us)
    Last edited by Cloudane; 05-17-2017 at 10:13 PM.

  5. #80
    Feel the Bern Del Murder's Avatar
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    Yeah, fair or not, some things get taken over by people who use them for evil and it changes the public perception of that thing. Does that change the meaning of the thing? I think that is subjective and will depend on your point of view. It's a noble battle to try and fight that perception but it will be an uphill one with a small chance of success.

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  6. #81
    Skyblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shauna View Post
    I can sense that this topic is going to be toeing some lines.

    Remember to keep it civil guys, I don't want to have to start deleting posts.
    Thanks Shauna. I like having my space to rant whenever a developer does something boneheaded, greedy, and anti-consumer. I'd hate to have that taken away by something as ancient as GamersGate

    And while I do appreciate the history lesson, it's also definitely getting a little too heated

    GamersGate is one of those things where if they want it to remain, and be seen as a positive, they'd have to "take it back". Whether they like it or not, public perception is negative. There's not a lot of widely known variables for the positive aspects. People know about the sexism, they know about the doxxing, the threats and bullying. And expecting us to dig farther than what tidbits the biased news outlets were providing is sadly asking a little too much
    The problem with that is this:
    The media hates Gamergate. Always did, always will.

    The reason why that's all people know is because that's all news sites would report.

    So how exactly can the group "take it back"?

    The group could, and did, do positive things both during the controversies, and long after. These were just never reported.

    Activities by the group were only reported on because they were bad.

    It was, for example, reported that ToralBiscuot threatened Zoe Quinn in emails early on, on the basis of a claim she made. When he produced the emails in question, and they were merely an attempt at trying to find a way to de-escalate the discussion, and for advice and cooperation on how to shut down or shut out the haters to allow for civil discussion? Never reported. Except for by the Gamergaters (and the ones attacking Quinn and others also attacked TB for "supporting the enemy". Not that this was reported either).

    When you are trying to point out corruption in the media, and most people learn of your movement from the media, how are you supposed to present a positive public image?

    This was the single largest question in the movement outside of the direct ethical concerns. Yes, most people who did research it wound up seeing it for what it was. But when you're fighting the media, how do you fight the perception they give of you?

    Any attempt to address the same issues now would be discarded in the same way. As the "remnants of Gamergate, struggling to spread their misogyny".

    It's a moot point, as the movement is largely defunct now, because it achieved its goals. But if you do have an answer to this, I would love to hear it.
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