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Thread: FFXV Survey: Veterans vs. First Timers

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    Default FFXV Survey: Veterans vs. First Timers



    A pretty interesting video, I thought.

  2. #2
    Crazy Scot. Cid's Knight Shauna's Avatar
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    Fans have expectations that are likely to not be met: the movie.

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    Skyblade's Avatar
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    Warning: The following post is more than a little bitter.


    "This is what fans in the West want, and the high level of interest in these areas around newcomers shows this".

    Until you realize that newcomers are only 12% of the participants. Which would make the "existing fanbase" the much larger demographic that should, perhaps, be listened to a bit more. After the whole "oh my gosh, people still like it when our games stick to their roots" reveal with Bravely Default, you'd think someone would be willing to admit that maybe the existing fanbase has a point about turning the series into something it's not, and wasting it away into another game in a genre that is already flooded.

    Then too, while we're talking about respondents, how do you account for those who just don't care about the new game enough to respond to your poll? The entire data set is pre-skewed towards confirmation of those who liked it, because they're more likely to still be involved in discussions and polls about the game.

    I mean, I'd never be a valid participant anyway, since the game so thoroughly killed my interest that I didn't even pick it up. And sure, I happily admit that I'm a tiny minority among the gamer demographics.

    But I guess you all go enjoy your multiplayer, action-based, story-less, open world driving game. And be thrilled that it gets more people excited in "Final Fantasy".

    Pity it doesn't actually have anything in common with Final Fantasy anymore.
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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    @Skyblade

    Considering Kitase said himself that he wants Final Fantasy to appeal to new fans and is not really concerned with older fans who he feels should bequeath the series to a new generation, that's largely why Squenix would probably be more interested in what new fans felt than old fans they know they can't please anymore. BD is still considered a fluke by SE, I feel the fact that Tokyo RPG Factory's I am Setsuna met with only the most modest of sales and a rather "blah" reception didn't really help SE feel like "old school" is still relevant. They may change their mind whenever Lost Sphear comes out, but we'll see. If old school fans want SE to feel like classic elements are still relevant, you've got to put your money where your mouth is.

    Personally, I'm not against Squenix experimenting with the core design, they've always tweaked and prodded with it, and the series not so subtle transition to emphasizing speed and "action" style gameplay meant an Action-RPG or two was inevitable. Still, they're not going to know what people want unless we tell them one way or the other, so I still feel it's interesting to do these survey style questions. I found it interesting that both newbies and veterans agreed on most points concerning what they liked and disliked about the game, with only the difference being the not too surprising satisfaction level.

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    Skyblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    @Skyblade

    Considering Kitase said himself that he wants Final Fantasy to appeal to new fans and is not really concerned with older fans who he feels should bequeath the series to a new generation, that's largely why Squenix would probably be more interested in what new fans felt than old fans they know they can't please anymore. BD is still considered a fluke by SE, I feel the fact that Tokyo RPG Factory's I am Setsuna met with only the most modest of sales and a rather "blah" reception didn't really help SE feel like "old school" is still relevant. They may change their mind whenever Lost Sphear comes out, but we'll see. If old school fans want SE to feel like classic elements are still relevant, you've got to put your money where your mouth is.
    Fair enough.

    Though I think that the relative lack of advertising, it being a new IP, and being done by an entirely new studio hurt I Am Setsuna far more than anything else.

    But, indeed, their new design may be more successful, and have greater appeal, than their old school RPGs.

    That doesn't mean that traditional RPGs are failures (see Persona 5), or that their fans should be pleased that they're discarding everything that the series used to be.

    Personally, I'm not against Squenix experimenting with the core design, they've always tweaked and prodded with it, and the series not so subtle transition to emphasizing speed and "action" style gameplay meant an Action-RPG or two was inevitable. Still, they're not going to know what people want unless we tell them one way or the other, so I still feel it's interesting to do these survey style questions. I found it interesting that both newbies and veterans agreed on most points concerning what they liked and disliked about the game, with only the difference being the not too surprising satisfaction level.
    And now they're transitioning away from the series even being an action-RPG. WTF even is Final Fantasy now? It's barely an RPG at all. From what I can tell, Square is just looking at everything popular, shoving it all in a blender, and tossing it out, while weakening the RPG aspects that are the core of the series the entire way. "Oh, Forza is a popular franchise, let's shove a car into it and make it a driving game." "Oh, people love open world games, let's make it open world." "Oh, people like VR, let's make a...uh, VR fishing game!" And, of course, the most recent "oh, people love multiplayer, let's add in multiplayer options".

    They're not "experimenting" with the core design. They've discarded it. This isn't Final Fantasy anymore. I don't know WTF it is. I don't think SQUARE knows WTF it is. They're just sitting there with their dartboard of popular ideas, hoping to find the one that will work.
    Last edited by Skyblade; 07-31-2017 at 11:18 AM.
    My friend Delzethin is currently running a GoFundMe account to pay for some extended medical troubles he's had. He's had chronic issues and lifetime troubles that have really crippled his career opportunities, and he's trying to get enough funding to get back to a stable medical situation. If you like his content, please support his GoFundMe, or even just contribute to his Patreon.

    He can really use a hand with this, and any support you can offer is appreciated.

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade View Post

    Fair enough.

    Though I think that the relative lack of advertising, it being a new IP, and being done by an entirely new studio hurt I Am Setsuna far more than anything else.

    But, indeed, their new design may be more successful, and have greater appeal, than their old school RPGs.

    That doesn't mean that traditional RPGs are failures (see Persona 5), or that their fans should be pleased that they're discarding everything that the series used to be.[
    They did the same with Bravely Default if you remember correctly, it also received little advertisement, was a new IP, and was actually published by Nintendo because SE had so little faith in it. Squenix doesn't ever give advertisement to anything that they don't believe is going to be a surefire hit.


    And now they're transitioning away from the series even being an action-RPG. WTF even is Final Fantasy now? It's barely an RPG at all. From what I can tell, Square is just looking at everything popular, shoving it all in a blender, and tossing it out, while weakening the RPG aspects that are the core of the series the entire way. "Oh, Forza is a popular franchise, let's shove a car into it and make it a driving game." "Oh, people love open world games, let's make it open world." "Oh, people like VR, let's make a...uh, VR fishing game!" And, of course, the most recent "oh, people love multiplayer, let's add in multiplayer options".

    They're not "experimenting" with the core design. They've discarded it. This isn't Final Fantasy anymore. I don't know WTF it is. I don't think SQUARE knows WTF it is. They're just sitting there with their dartboard of popular ideas, hoping to find the one that will work.
    Well to be fair, a lot of this content is DLC nonsense, so I wouldn't actually call it "core design". The Open World aspect is simply one element of the design and something RPGs have been utilizing for years before this game came out, so again, I don't necessarily feel this is SE moving away from "what an RPG is".

    Driving around in a car is something that VIII had back on the PS1 and even required fuel to utilize. Even then, I would argue the car aspect (well until the silly off road DLC anyway) was designed to be very different from an actual driving game and frankly, I felt it was one of the better implemented ideas considering the biggest part of it's appeal is listening to the party banter and unlocking some of Prompto's photo quests.

    I feel at best, one can argue that FFXV is certainly more modern WRPG than JRPG by design, that's pretty undeniable, but I would still say it's an RPG as it has more of the fundamental elements of the genre there which is a bit more than I can say about a certain previous entry... At the same time, I can agree that this design choice most likely alienated a certain part of the older fanbase, but again, Kitase doesn't make games for us. He's told us to move on and let the younger generation like FF instead.

    I can't logically blame Kitase for adapting this approach either because it's easier to build a series on trends to appeal to a new generation than try to appeal to what is ultimately an unpleasible older fanbase. FF fans are the Trekkies of video games who all cut their teeth on the series from very different games. You can't possibly appeal to everyone without pissing someone off. It's easy to say "just make them like they were when they were good" but you ask fans when the series was "good" and you'll likely get a different response. We can go by sales so basically make every game like VII and X but I personally don't like those games and have several issues with both of their designs, so how is this fair for someone like me? See what I mean? We're too jaded, so why appeal to us when their name recognition almost guarantees that some new person will eventually check them out and become a new fan? I'm not saying SE doesn't like us aold fans, and haven't tried to appeal to us before, but again, we're all from very different generations of gaming with different needs and likes, appealing to us is always going to be an uphill battle and SE doesn't need to sacrifice their main franchise to do that when they can simply fund smaller projects to do so.

    P5 showed a turn base game can still be financially successful, but that simply means SE still has that option, they don't have to follow because XV itself was also pretty damn successful itself, so P5's success didn't prove that one battle mechanic is superior to the other, it simply means the market is receptive to older design, but it only means SE has options, it doesn't mean they can't make up whatever system they want. It would have been a very different story if XV flopped and P5 was a success, but that might have also spelled bigger issues for Final Fantasy in general.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shauna View Post
    Fans have expectations that are likely to not be met: the movie.
    I think it's completely reasonable to have expectations for a 30 year old franchise.

    FF fans should be able to expect some recurring themes with each new installment, and XV either removed or diminished a good chunk of them.

    Maybe expectations were too high coming into the game considering how disastrous the development was. :P

  8. #8

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    Final Fantasy XV is the result of them listening TOO much to the old fans, not "not enough". Giving the story less substance and making it short while focusing on stuff like an extremely forced feeling open world that also has no actual substance but is eye candy, much comparable to most open worlds is the direct result of the continous criticism about XIII. And that even though the trilogy already did a good job listening to criticism.

    I like it really a lot but it saved too much at spots where I see relevance in a Final Fantasy. Like story that does start then is set to 5% relevance for 5 chapters and then slowly gets a bit more exposition. Really, I will never forget that Final Fantasy XV has a trophy that flat out is called "The Open World". This is very similiar to Zelda Breath of the Wild with "Breath of the Wild" also being basically just a cool way of calling it "Open World". I like running around a pretty looking planet but for that to truly amaze me the design has to be very very interesting and this year only Horizon Zero Dawn managed to do that and that was because the first trailer two years ago made me already be interested in the world's design. The entire mood of the game and its story exposition is solid but Final Fantasy XV just falls short there. And even Zelda has a hard time there but I don't have too big of expectations for story in Zelda so it was fine enough. As long as Twilight Princess has its story its fine by me. And what was there in BotW was at least "somewhat satisfying" to me.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 08-03-2017 at 05:26 PM.

  9. #9
    Crazy Scot. Cid's Knight Shauna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
    I think it's completely reasonable to have expectations for a 30 year old franchise.
    Of course! I would never say otherwise. But given than an FF has never met fan expectations since the dawn of humans, I was not surprised that generally people with no expectations seemed to rate aspects of it higher.

  10. #10

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    Die Hard 2 is a really good film for anyone who hasn't seen Die Hard 1.

    ...I feel like I shouldn't just leave it at that, huh...

    Y'know, I'm not one of those complete purists who thinks a series should never try new things - I really liked Final Fantasy XII (for the most part) and that was a hell of a departure from what had come before. But it is still important to understand what you did before and what your strengths are. The new Ghost in the Shell is a perfectly competent movie taken on its own, but when you compare it to the 1995 anime version it's rubbish. It re-used scenes and story elements without really understanding what made them strong in the first place, so they didn't have the same effect.

    To me FFXV is like that. It's a perfectly fine game on its own. But it doesn't understand the series it finds itself a part of. It's so busy throwing "cool stuff" at you that it has no focus of its own. The thing that really epitomizes this for me is the flying Regalia. They had no intention of including flight in this game, until a bunch of people moaned (foolishly IMO) about it not having an airship. "Oh, fine then, have your airship," they said, and proceeded to implement the flying Regalia in a completely boring, non-important, non-story related way. They heard the cried for an airship and then ticked a box rather than figuring out something that would actually work.

    Yes, there it is. That's my problem with Final Fantasy XV. It's a game about 'ticking the boxes' on the Final Fantasy checklist rather than making those elements work for its own vision.

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