Okay to be gay in California

[Giga Guess]

It's the liberals tolerance that is going to make this country more desensitized than it already is. Not to mention the fact that BABIES WILL DIE.

And we have the "Abortion=TEH BEBBIE KILLERZEZ" from left field. What bearing does that have on the current topic, please?

Hating Christians is stupid by the way. Just because Christians don't beleive in abortion or gay marriage, people "hate" them.

Firstly, I doubt anyone here hates Christians. It's zealots that are on the receiving end of the ire. Those who would take their belief system, and use it as a method of oppression. Second, it has nothing to do with not "believing" in either of them. It's telling OTHERS that they aren't allowed to, either. Don't believe in it? Fine, don't have anything to do with it. But don't tell us what to do.

I get chewed out a lot for my conservative beliefs. Not neccessarily on this forum, but a lot IRL. The world is going liberal and, consequently, down the toilet.

How so? Please, elaborate on this. Both ideologies have pros and cons. Simplifying either to "Good" or "Bad," in my eyes, is somewhat childish. So how can "Liberalism" be the cause of the decline of the U.S.? Especially since a conservative took the helm of the country since it began it's decline.

[Madame Adequate]

I get chewed out a lot for my conservative beliefs. Not neccessarily on this forum, but a lot IRL. The world is going liberal and, consequently, down the toilet.

Which civilization-group is the most successful, prosperous, and powerful the world has ever seen? The West. Who has the most flourishing artistic and cultural sector in the modern age? The West. Who has the most advanced science and technology? The best universities? The highest literacy rates? The West.

Know what else the West is? It's liberal. It's the most liberal civilization that has ever existed in Human history. The past few centuries of liberalizing is precisely what has led to our current prominence. Liberalism is what means you live in a society where you aren't going to get executed for being a rape victim.

Liberalism has given you a society where you're allowed to decide for yourself how best to live your life. You might think it's fine to have someone who agrees completely with you to have control, because it doesn't affect you - but the problem is there is no way of guaranteeing who is in control. It could just as easily be someone you disagree with. So it's better to be liberal, because then you're protected from being completely controlled by people like me.

Liberalism isn't destroying the world. It's the only beacon of hope in the world.

[Big D]

Firstly, I doubt anyone here hates Christians. It's zealots that are on the receiving end of the ire.

To be fair, there are an awful lot of people who dispense ire on Christianity as a whole these days. It's rather trendy to be bitterly vengeful about the entire thing, especially for independent-thinking young folk, even if they're blindingly ignorant about Christianity. It's as though 'argument from ignorance' is valid if you're condemning a religion or its followers.

[DMKA]

My hypothesis is that Duckie was brainwashed as a child.

Was that really necessary?

Seriously though, Duckie, I have a question for you. Would it be immoral if they passed a law banning heterosexual marriage?

If you think it would be immoral, tell me why.

In Christianity, marriage is a holy union, and under that holy union is the only way in which it is suitable to procreate. Banning such a union would be immoral for obvious reasons.

[Giga Guess]

Firstly, I doubt anyone here hates Christians. It's zealots that are on the receiving end of the ire.

To be fair, there are an awful lot of people who dispense ire on Christianity as a whole these days. It's rather trendy to be bitterly vengeful about the entire thing, especially for independent-thinking young folk, even if they're blindingly ignorant about Christianity. It's as though 'argument from ignorance' is valid if you're condemning a religion or its followers.

Noted, but unless I missed or misread, I didn't see any posts condemning Christianity, but rather those who adhere to blind zealotry. Not to say that there aren't those who make blanket assertions against Christianity as a whole, though. I suppose I should have clarified, as I meant no one in this thread. Not to make it seem like I'm shifting my goalposts here, just clarifying what I meant.

[Kirobaito]

I get chewed out a lot for my conservative beliefs. Not neccessarily on this forum, but a lot IRL. The world is going liberal and, consequently, down the toilet.

I really hate to pour it on, but do you know what "conservatives" in the US believed 150 years ago? That slavery should be preserved as a human institution. Do you know why slavery was abolished? That damned "liberalism."

Flash forward 20 years. Do you know what "conservatives" in the US believed? That workers should put up with the way things were. Do you know why workers' rights were established? That damned "liberalism."

The year is 1956. Do you know what "conservatives" in the US believed? That segregation was a right of states, and that nobody had any business meddling in their sacred institutions, such as segregation. Do you know why integration happened? That damned "liberalism."

Now, the year is 2008. Loving, homosexual couples do not share the same rights that others do. "Conservatives" in the US believe that others have no business meddling in their sacred institution of "marriage," as if it is theirs and theirs alone to control and define. Do you know why the same rights bestowed upon heterosexual couples are being given to all Americans? That damned "liberalism."

Now, many conservatives today will say, "That doesn't matter. I don't believe in slavery, and I don't believe in segregation." Of course they don't. But do you know why they don't? That damned "liberalism" again. They'll talk and talk and talk about tradition and the importance of preserving it; however, history has shown us that the definition of "conservatism" always, always changes, ceding more and more of these traditions in the name of progress - that damned "liberalism" again. Do you get my point? As MILF said, the world is not going down the drain because of "liberalism." Liberalism is the most important idea to ever happen to humankind.

EDIT: The definitions of "conservatism" and "liberalism" contained within this post are defined as duckie defined them by her statement that liberalism is the reason the U.S. is going down the drain.

This comes from a Christian who spent his entire life up to about two years ago as a staunch "conservative." It was not until I left the environment I had grown up in that I completely re-wired myself to a way that would be morally appropriate.

[Roto13]

Firstly, I doubt anyone here hates Christians. It's zealots that are on the receiving end of the ire.

To be fair, there are an awful lot of people who dispense ire on Christianity as a whole these days. It's rather trendy to be bitterly vengeful about the entire thing, especially for independent-thinking young folk, even if they're blindingly ignorant about Christianity. It's as though 'argument from ignorance' is valid if you're condemning a religion or its followers.

Noted, but unless I missed or misread, I didn't see any posts condemning Christianity, but rather those who adhere to blind zealotry. Not to say that there aren't those who make blanket assertions against Christianity as a whole, though. I suppose I should have clarified, as I meant no one in this thread. Not to make it seem like I'm shifting my goalposts here, just clarifying what I meant.

I think there were a couple near the beginning but they were "clarified." I can't be assed to check. :P

[Giga Guess]

Seriously though, Duckie, I have a question for you. Would it be immoral if they passed a law banning heterosexual marriage?

If you think it would be immoral, tell me why.

In Christianity, marriage is a holy union, and under that holy union is the only way in which it is suitable to procreate. Banning such a union would be immoral for obvious reasons.

Perhaps, but the point is valid. It's easy to say the actions are just and fair when you're not the one that suffers.

[duckie]

WOW! Ok, well, I'm just going to reply to everyone as a whole.
About people hating Christians...
It is true. I am a Christian, and you guys are biting my head off for being so. MOST, and note that I said most, people say "Christians" not "Christian zealots". So, yea, I think that people generally hate Christians. BTW: just b/c your a conservative, does not mean you are a Christian. They do not go hand-in-hand. There just happen to be more Christians in the Republican party. And that is why I beleive people ALSO hate Republicans: b/c they have a reputation of being Christians.
Also, about my beleif that liberals will ruin the country:
That is my opinion. Don't the liberals on here bash conservatives, saying what a crappy job they would do? One major thing I think would ruin our country is free healthcare. Isn't that reminiscent of Communism? Just saying. There are lot more, like abortion, and gay marriage, but I'll talk about that in a second.
Liberalism...
Just b/c the country is going liberal, does that mean I have to change my beleifs? Why should what they beleive have anything to do with what I believe? And I disagree that liberalism is the "beacon of hope". And not everything they propose gives you freedom. EX: free healthcare (stated above) means you don't get to choose your own doctor. You get whatever they give you, b/c it's FREE. And that makes it sound good.
Gay marriage...
Like DMKA said, I beleive that marriage is a holy union. It's been set down since the beginning of time that marriage would be between a man and a woman. I beleive that we should protect the holy union of marriage.
Old conservative beleifs...
What does 100-yr old conservative beliefs have to do with anything today? If we're talking about past things, what about Lyndon B. Johnson? He lied to America during the Vietnam war (pentagon papers). But do you see me bringing that up? Past events in conervative/liberal history have nothing to do with the present. BTW: "Morallly appropriate?" So you changed your views according to what society believes?

[Madame Adequate]

Also, about my beleif that liberals will ruin the country:
That is my opinion. Don't the liberals on here bash conservatives, saying what a crappy job they would do?

I tear liberals apart when they have ideas I don't like, just the same way I tear conservatives apart for the same. You can ask anyone here if I'm partisan, and if they say yes, I'll link them to two threads: One where I argue in favor of free-market capitalism the likes of which has never been seen, another where I argue for completely equal rights for all sapient creatures.

Just b/c the country is going liberal, does that mean I have to change my beleifs? Why should what they beleive have anything to do with what I believe? And I disagree that liberalism is the "beacon of hope".

The way the country is going doesn't matter at all. If I was the only person on Earth who disagreed with you I'd still question you, and if you were the only conservative on Earth I'd still question you. I challenge you to defend your beliefs because I disagree with them - one, or both, of us is wrong, and the only way we'll find that out is by challenging each other to defend our beliefs.

And not everything they propose gives you freedom. EX: free healthcare (stated above) means you don't get to choose your own doctor. You get whatever they give you, b/c it's FREE. And that makes it sound good.

Actually, it depends on the style of healthcare. Although I don't believe in socialized healthcare myself.

Gay marriage...
Like DMKA said, I beleive that marriage is a holy union. It's been set down since the beginning of time that marriage would be between a man and a woman. I beleive that we should protect the holy union of marriage.

Well... what about all those of us who don't believe it's a holy union? I don't think it's holy. I think it's a legal arrangement. I think it has been invested with particular importance due to society, and that emotional symbol is something that matters to people. I don't need a religion to sanctify my love for someone - if I take someone up the aisle, I have chosen to do so, and to say they and I are not sufficient, alone, for that marriage to matter and be true, insults us.

Old conservative beleifs...
What does 100-yr old conservative beliefs have to do with anything today? If we're talking about past things, what about Lyndon B. Johnson? He lied to America during the Vietnam war (pentagon papers). But do you see me bringing that up? Past events in conervative/liberal history have nothing to do with the present.

No, you've misunderstood what Kiro was saying. 100 year old conservative beliefs matter because, by the very definition of conservatism, they shouldn't have changed. But they have. Most don't accept that slavery should exist, for example - because a conservative belief, just like your conservative belief, was shown to be wrongheaded and evil by liberalism. Just like liberals are, in this case, showing your belief on gay marriage to be wrongheaded and, yes, evil.

[Momiji]

WOW! Ok, well, I'm just going to reply to everyone as a whole.
About people hating Christians...
It is true. I am a Christian, and you guys are biting my head off for being so. MOST, and note that I said most, people say "Christians" not "Christian zealots". So, yea, I think that people generally hate Christians. BTW: just b/c your a conservative, does not mean you are a Christian. They do not go hand-in-hand. There just happen to be more Christians in the Republican party. And that is why I beleive people ALSO hate Republicans: b/c they have a reputation of being Christians.
Also, about my beleif that liberals will ruin the country:
That is my opinion. Don't the liberals on here bash conservatives, saying what a crappy job they would do? One major thing I think would ruin our country is free healthcare. Isn't that reminiscent of Communism? Just saying. There are lot more, like abortion, and gay marriage, but I'll talk about that in a second.
Liberalism...
Just b/c the country is going liberal, does that mean I have to change my beleifs? Why should what they beleive have anything to do with what I believe? And I disagree that liberalism is the "beacon of hope". And not everything they propose gives you freedom. EX: free healthcare (stated above) means you don't get to choose your own doctor. You get whatever they give you, b/c it's FREE. And that makes it sound good.
Gay marriage...
Like DMKA said, I beleive that marriage is a holy union. It's been set down since the beginning of time that marriage would be between a man and a woman. I beleive that we should protect the holy union of marriage.
Old conservative beleifs...
What does 100-yr old conservative beliefs have to do with anything today? If we're talking about past things, what about Lyndon B. Johnson? He lied to America during the Vietnam war (pentagon papers). But do you see me bringing that up? Past events in conervative/liberal history have nothing to do with the present. BTW: "Morallly appropriate?" So you changed your views according to what society believes?

*facepalm + headdesk*

It's funny how you absolutely ignored my post and continued to blindly ramble on.

Furthermore, I have no idea how healthcare plays into gay marriage, but I have to disagree where you call it 'Communism'. Even if you don't get to choose your own doctor, it's a hell of a lot better than staying sick, isn't it? Also, I'm sure that only applies to the free healthcare. I'm sure if you continue to pay your current doctor, he will not object to taking care of you. The free healthcare is for those who cannot afford to pay.

And no one here is biting your head off for being a Christian, because if that was the case, they'd be biting my head off as well, because I'm a Christian too, as I have mentioned a couple times in this thread and in other ones as well. They're biting your head off because you're being entirely closed-minded and saying whatever you can to justify yourself. Take other peoples' opinions into account before you start bashing theirs, because in the end, you are acting no different than they are when they bash your opinions. That is why people are getting so frustrated with you. Get off your high horse, please. I don't normally snap like this on the forums, unless I'm not being totally serious.

I'm being totally serious. Please open your mind and shut your mouth before you say anything else.

[Roto13]

My turn! My turn!

WOW! Ok, well, I'm just going to reply to everyone as a whole.
About people hating Christians...
It is true. I am a Christian, and you guys are biting my head off for being so. MOST, and note that I said most, people say "Christians" not "Christian zealots". So, yea, I think that people generally hate Christians.

Who let you down from your cross?

People are biting your head off for being an idiot. Yeah, there are people out there who hate Christians and that's wrong, but that's not why people are hating on you. Stop trying to be a martyr.

BTW: just b/c your a conservative, does not mean you are a Christian. They do not go hand-in-hand. There just happen to be more Christians in the Republican party. And that is why I beleive people ALSO hate Republicans: b/c they have a reputation of being Christians.

No, people hate republicans for things like the Iraq war and human rights.

Also, about my beleif that liberals will ruin the country:
That is my opinion. Don't the liberals on here bash conservatives, saying what a crappy job they would do?

Not would do. What a crappy job they DO.

One major thing I think would ruin our country is free healthcare. Isn't that reminiscent of Communism? Just saying. There are lot more, like abortion, and gay marriage, but I'll talk about that in a second.

Name a country free healthcare has ruined? Communism? I think that one quote just highlighted two more subjects you know absolutely nothing about.

Liberalism...
Just b/c the country is going liberal, does that mean I have to change my beleifs? Why should what they beleive have anything to do with what I believe? And I disagree that liberalism is the "beacon of hope". And not everything they propose gives you freedom. EX: free healthcare (stated above) means you don't get to choose your own doctor. You get whatever they give you, b/c it's FREE. And that makes it sound good.

Oh, looky, more ignorance. I'm Canadian. I get free healthcare. I get to choose my own doctor.

Gay marriage...
Like DMKA said, I beleive that marriage is a holy union. It's been set down since the beginning of time that marriage would be between a man and a woman. I beleive that we should protect the holy union of marriage.

Holy union my ass. Give me one good reason why we should "protect the holy union of marriage" from people who want to get married?

Old conservative beleifs...
What does 100-yr old conservative beliefs have to do with anything today?

Because the shooting down of those beliefs is what made the world a ridiculously better place than it was during the slave trade.

If we're talking about past things, what about Lyndon B. Johnson? He lied to America during the Vietnam war (pentagon papers). But do you see me bringing that up?

Lying is a liberal belief now?

Past events in conervative/liberal history have nothing to do with the present.

You're ridiculous.

BTW: "Morallly appropriate?" So you changed your views according to what society believes?

Justin knows that just because something is Christian, that doesn't mean it's right so he changed his beliefs to go with the logic behind why things are right and wrong.

[Raebus]

This is fun to read. ^_______^

[NeoCracker]

Okay, Free Health Care reminiscent of Communism? WTF?

The reason people say that is because it's socialized. Lets list all these other "Socialized" aspects of America.

1) Education
2) Libraries
3) Police

Thoset are just off the top of my head. So because these are all "reminiscent of Communism" should all of these things be taken away?


But more on topic, MArriage has meant many different things to many different cultures that had nothing to do with eachother.

So the whole "Preserving the tradition" of Marriage is a crap argument.

I think someone already linked to examples, so I'll just give a couple of reasons marraige happened.

1) Land Gain
2) Improving relations between rivals.
3) Settle debts.

None of those even require those getting married to be willing, so tradition is a BS argument.

Then theres the "Gay is wrong due to Christian law" argument. So what if many Christians precieve it as wrong? Your religious views shouldn't be passed as law. I might be quoting the wrong founding father, but I believe that Thomas Jefferson said that there should be a separation of church and state.

Those are the two arguments I hear most frequently, and neither of them hold any water. I'll post later and argue against various other arguments I've heard, but for now this will suffice.

[Avarice-ness]

This is by far the most EoEo topic in General I've ever seen.

As for the whole Christian argument, depends on your type of Christian. If your a non-denominational, you mainly believe in god and Jesus Christ. Most gay people who are Christian are non-denominational because their church doesn't focus on certain things in the bible and make them church law. Basically it avoids dogma's as seen in baptist Christianity, the whole thing where no baptist person should drink alcohol because it opens up the mind to sins and leaves the mind vulnerable to the devil. Not all Christian types believe that Sodom and Gamora is a type of law to follow, due to the fact that many Christians take it up in a different interpretation. Yes, god did smite down the gays and lesbians, but most Christian types do not believe the bible is meant to be taken word for word and that it is up for human interpretation.

MEANING, that if god smote down Sodom and Gamora then no matter what we do in this life with gays and lesbians that god will take care of and it is by no means, part of a christians moral code to interfere. MEANING! If something like this passes in the government you are to leave your faith in the hands of god, versus the hands of the state to stop what you feel to be morally wrong. Why? Because no christian is the hand of god, and to try to take control of something that god previously took control of (S&G) is claiming that you have the power to change things only god was able to change, thus claiming yourself equal to god. And last time I checked, Pride was a sin.


And because of there being no -true- dogma in -all- of Christianity and a hell of a lot of Christian types, that leads there to be no majority for Christians "as a whole." Because of that, the chances of a christian fighting the "political power" as a whole, doesn't seem very liable. Like I said before, there are gay christians.

Either way, I support gay marriage, so yay for california.