Transgender beauty queen disqualified from Miss Universe pageant

[Raistlin]

I personally would feel 'tricked' if I was intmate with a woman and she later told me she was born a man. There are a lot of social and psychological complexities with regards to transgenderism and it is unfair for the trans to lay those on their partner after the fact.

By "intimate" do you mean long-term relationship or simply casual sex? If the latter, this seems like a rationalization. There are only "social complexities" involved with transsexuals because people are idiots; just because so many people are bigots does not mean transsexuals should openly advertise their genetic history. In fact, it's exactly what keeps them in the closet about it. Who can blame them?

I still don't see why it matters. I do understand that it seems weird for people who have not been exposed to it before; it certainly seems weird to me. But, unlike so many people, I actually question that feeling and ask myself if it's justified. And it doesn't take much to realize that it's not.

As I said before, forget typical transsexuals for a bit. Think about this in the context of people born with a genetic condition so that they had ambiguous genitalia, and their parents basically chose a sex for them. Such a woman was not born a woman, and had to have surgery to make her so. Do you think it'd be reasonable to feel "tricked" if she casually slept with you without disclosing that fact? That just seems outrageously bigoted and unwarranted. And I don't see any meaningful distinction between that case and any other transsexuals. The bottom line is it shouldn't matter, but it will continue to matter such a great deal as long as people aren't called out on it.

[Jinx]

To me, it's similar to like...if I go to have a one-night stand with a guy, I'm not going to tell him how many guys I've slept with. If I go to have a relationship with him, I will.

Not 100% the same, but still.

Frankly, I feel really bad for transgendered women who are put in that position. You risk the person being mad and disgusted (even if you're upfront from the getgo.) And then, if they don't tell them, but decide to later, they risk the same reaction times 1000.

But then there are some men out there who wouldn't care at all. Me, if I found out I'd been having sex with a man who was born a woman, I really wouldn't be that bothered. It didn't bother me at the time. What I'd be bothered about was the dishonesty.


But I'm derailing the topic a bit.

As for the original topic: If it said in the rules you had to be born a woman, I can understand her being disqualified, even if I don't agree with it. I don't see it as discrimination against her, if it was stated in the rules. As someone mentioned earlier, they also disqualify women who are or have been married, and women who have had a kid. So...they aren't really open in general, are they?

[nik0tine]

I got into this thread late and I'm not reading the entire thing so sorry if what I say is redundant; I just want to fuel the conflagration further by giving my 2c.

Having a sex change does not actually change your sex. A MtF transsexual is not a female. A woman, perhaps, but not a female. They are males who have undergone cosmetic surgery and hormone treatment.

As I said before, forget typical transsexuals for a bit. Think about this in the context of people born with a genetic condition so that they had ambiguous genitalia, and their parents basically chose a sex for them. Such a woman was not born a woman, and had to have surgery to make her so.

And such a woman is still not a female.

Furthermore, it's no less bigoted to be turned off by a transsexual than it is to be turned off by a fat person or an arrogant person. Sexual attraction is arbitrary and whimsical and it will (and should) stay that way. Whats bigoted is to look down on a person based on what they find physically or emotionally attractive.

[Raistlin]

Again with the arbitrary, absolutist definitions of gender (or, I suppose in nik's case, dismissing gender as irrelevant).

Furthermore, it's no less bigoted to be turned off by a transsexual than it is to be turned off by a fat person or an arrogant person.

Those examples aren't the same, as they are perceivable characteristics -- and obviously what you can see and hear plays a large part in sexual attraction. You have no way of knowing about genetics unless it's disclosed to you. It is letters on a piece of paper.

You're also missing the point. No one hear is saying that people cannot be "turned off" by the idea of a transsexual; we are criticizing the conclusions people are drawing to justify those feelings. E.g., that a trans-female is "tricking" men into unintentional gay sex, or that trans-people are gross and should advertise themselves to avoid such trickery. Feelings cannot be bigotry; acting on them can be.

[Hollycat]

I would like to clear up that whole tricking thing I said earlier. I had an uncle who had a sex change, went and got laid, and then told the person they slept with that she used to be a man.

[nik0tine]

Those examples aren't the same, as they are perceivable characteristics -- and obviously what you can see and hear plays a large part in sexual attraction. You have no way of knowing about genetics unless it's disclosed to you. It is letters on a piece of paper.

I concede those examples aren't entirely comparable but what of a criminal? If a murderer is out on parole nobody will know unless he reveals it. Having committed an act like that in the past is enough to creep some people out to the extent that they might not want to have a one night stand with you. Question: Should the feelings of a potential sex partner be respected in that case?

There are people who, without question, are going to feel wierded out if they actually knew they were sleeping with a transsexual. Should those feelings be respected, even if its a one night stand?

[Iceglow]

I would like to clear up that whole tricking thing I said earlier. I had an uncle who had a sex change, went and got laid, and then told the person they slept with that she used to be a man.

So let me get this straight...

You are claiming you have an uncle who had a sex change. I'm not going to comment on whether this is true or not imho, I will take it with scepticism considering your earlier attitudes in this thread. I'm going to however treat this as legit and respectfully will call your "uncle" your "aunt" from here on out and use the feminine to refer to them too.

You are also claiming she slept with a man post op and told the person that she was originally a man after the fact and "tricked" this guy in to sleeping with her. You know this how? What were the motives behind this, was it done maliciously? Or did your "aunt" go out and meet someone who wanted to sleep with her because they found her attractive as many girls would and later ended up back at this person's place and slept with them? Did your "aunt" tell them in the manner of "btw, I really guess I ought to come clean here and be honest with you. I had a great time last night and you're fantastic but I'm not quite what I seem. I was originally born a boy and later had a sex change. I know I should have let you been aware about this before hand but we were drunk and it all moved so fast and well, I'm truly sorry if it upsets you." or did she tell them in the manner of "haha! you slept with someone who was born a guy!" your post indicates the latter but somehow if the existence of this "aunt" is proven to be true then I would believe the former more than someone doing a Nelson from the simspons impersonation. The reason I draw the conclusion that you imply she did a Nelson impersonation is simple; you use the word tricked as in to trick to deliberately mislead a person to achieve a given goal. I trick people all the time in to doing things they don't want to do and I'm rarely sorry for having done so I am far more likely to simply laugh at their impotent anger at the past having taken place to my design.

Either way, the existence of your "aunt" aside your attitude is still not exactly open minded about this. Ok sure, so you would prefer not to sleep with a woman who is transgendered. I can understand that. I have my preferences too, for example I prefer my girls to be shorter than me and to be of the petite build. However I do not automatically consider every girl over 5'10" tall gross or any girl who is not of the petite build to be completely unsmurfable. I simply prefer when it is an option to go with a girl who fits my preferences if however the girl I like in a group is not the girl I would go for aesthetically I do not let this stop me pursuing the girl I actually want to spend time with.

What I cannot get my head around is your irrational fear of transgendered women. I mean surely you can see by my previous post here as someone who has met several transgendered women and consider a few to be friends. That unless she volunteered the information you would without some serious digging have a hard time discovering these women were anything but highly attractive women. Most of the transgendered women I know have completely different names and life's to their pre-op lives. In fact one of them no longer even has contact with her family because she was outcast she moved over 300 miles away from them and now lives a life which seemingly starts aged 25 in London according to Facebook. I know plenty of people who I could say the same about who are not in her rather unique situation.

I could perhaps understand if your fear for transgendered women was not of them but rather for their safety had this "aunt" of yours been beaten seriously and hurt for having slept with a man who felt insecure about it then sure. However your fear is clearly of transgendered women not for their safety. The story you have told us in the above quote is not:

"I have an aunt who used to be a man, she once went out to a bar and met someone. When he found out after they'd slept together that she was born a man he beat her senseless. In my opinion transgender women ought to be very careful in whom they have liaisons with since not many men it seems can accept them for who they are."

no it is implying that your "Aunt" deliberately misled someone for the purpose of having sex. Which whilst despicable is actually no more despicable than the average bulltit guys will say to a girl on a night out in hopes of being invited back to hers or getting her back to theirs. "Oh you're really attractive and a great person, I'd totally love to see you again, of course I will call you" ect ect.

[Peegee]

Isn't HC the person who admitted to being a pathological liar? I call shenaningans on the uncle thing.

As for full disclosure, unless that disclosure will matter (i need to use a condom for cunnilingus cuz i has hivs) it shouldn't matter. But what defines what matters? Harm? Does it hurt to have sex with a post op mtf? I think no, but preference utilitarianism says maybe.

[Iceglow]

Isn't HC the person who admitted to being a pathological liar? I call shenaningans on the uncle thing.

hence scepticism.

[Hollycat]

Not lying this time, nor was I lying about my jaguar. And it wasn't just once, he/she does it all the time, it's like a hobby. Kind of like one of those things where you tell someone to go to a shocksite then record their reaction.

[Freya]

I find it surprising that you failed to mention it until just now HC. Seeing as how people were tearing into you earlier, it would have been something you'd have tossed in from the get go. Ergo, not believing it.

[Hollycat]

I kept saying I had personal reasons did I not? Would you not call that personal?

[Del Murder]

This is getting a bit too off the topic. While the tangent about transgenderism in society has been interesting, the sexual exploits of HC's uncle is taking it a little too out there. Let's drop that subject.

[Old Manus]

I haven't read the other pages in this thread, but

If I found out that I was in a relationship with a post-op, the main thing that would bother me is the question of whether I'm courting a girl, or a man who is just very gay. I don't know yet what I would do.

[Slothy]

If I found out that I was in a relationship with a post-op, the main thing that would bother me is the question of whether I'm courting a girl, or a man who is just very gay. I don't know yet what I would do.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but if you are then please find the link MILF posted earlier and read it.