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Originally Posted by
Bolivar
I just have to say that's not true, well sorta. On the first disc, White Wind is only available (pretty sure) on the first continent, and you can only get it after obtaining manipulate on the second. Alot of players probably don't know you can boat back to the first, much less think about going there.
Like Egami, the fault, in your argument is you are assuming its just first timers or very very casual gamers. A seasoned player knows they can go back because you need to grab the Mythril from the sleeping old man so you can get Aerith's Great Gospel Limit Break. Magic Hammer is obtained on the third continent with Wutai, which I would also like to point out that after you steal the Tiny Bronco, the game starts you on the shores of the third continent. Mighty Guard is from the nautilus looking monsters found on most of the beaches of the second continent. Another thing to point out is that Manipulate is the easiest way to obtain them. If you really wanted them before that, you could farm Loco Grass dropped from the Hammer Blasters, Sword Masters, and 3rd Class SOLDIERS in the Shin-Ra Tower. A little confusion and you have a decent chance of the monster pulling off the Enemy Skill. Granted, even I feel this is excessive but it is possible.
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I never said the stat meanings/effects were stellar. I simply said they are there, and it is indeed noticeable, however minor, that you will hit for less and have less hp if magic materia is equipped. And likewise, Barret and Tifa will never become as good mages as Cloud or Red XIII. That's not really debatable.
In VI, however, the first espers you get have the opportunity to (permanently) teach your characters -ara class spells. To even use your own example - I usually give Cyan Ramuh for the +1 Stamina bonus. Despite your assurance that giving such characters magic is pointless, it doesn't change the fact that for a good point in the game Cyan tears through multiple enemies at a time with Thundara.
Now let me point out one thing out before I get accused of this. I never said VI's system is better than VII. IMO I like both systems and I feel they are about equal. In fact, I find that both of them suffer from the same problems (overpowered abilities, mediocre difficulty, and a very abusive customization system). I just feel that VI's system caters to my personal taste better. Personally. I'm a job class person so V and FFT are my faves :cool:
Magic is overpowered in VI, in fact VI probably has the most overpowered magic in the series hands down. As you indirectly pointed out, most of the magic probably does 2x to 4x more damage than any other FF. VI is still the only game where Osmosis is actually a very good spell. Because of this, even loser mages like Cyan and Locke can appear powerful. Yet I feel at end game it becomes apparent that using Cyan as a mage is counterproductive unless you raised his magic stat a ton. Yeah, he's probably doing serious damage with -aga spells and Flare, but he doesn't hold a candle to Terra or Relm whose magic power almost guarantee's an instant win.
I feel VI has a stronger emphasis on stats than VII yet I will also agree that the overpowered magic makes diversity (i.e. not turning everyone into a mage) an issue in VI as well. I just feel VII does the same thing.
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The only point I made about weapons was that it distinguished characters, each one had their own distinct weapon class, while many of them, such as swords and daggers overlap in VI. And there are more than "rare" instances when ranged weapons make a difference - we could go down the list of fliers, or settle for the fact that such a large quantity of battles have front and back rows of enemies.
I'm just saying that I felt IV did a better job utilizing the ranged weapons than VII cause its fairly easy to kill the front lines in a single round making the back row a minor inconvenience. Throw in your whole parties ability to cast magic and I feel ranged weapons are a moot point in diversity in VII. In IV it was rather common to have some powerful mage like monster in a back row spamming powerful spells like Bio and Blaze while being protected by powerful meat shields. I never saw VII really pull this off cause it was fairly easy to either wipe out all the monsters at once or your party can tear the front row apart. Hell the enemies in the back row were never annoying enough to warrant "must kill first" status like they would in pre-VI FFs.
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I gotta flip your own argument on you on this one. Not only did I provide the -ara example, but at the end of the game, any character with -aga spells are going to do some damage, simple and plain. And, ironically, in VI the stat differences are not big enough to hinder Terra's ability as a warrior. Give her any sword as it becomes available and she'll probably rock with it. Not as much as Edgar, but still. And Locke does get a good flux of unique weapons all throughout the game - I know this is getting a little too technical, just thought I'd throw it in :p
Its fine, as I stated above, I don't think VI's combat system is superior or without the same faults VII has. I just prefer it over VII's system. I feel stats become a bit a more important by end game but like you pointed out, VI is not without its broken weapons and abilities. One could argue that giving Terra a blade is a bit of a handicap though, considering her magic stat is so smurfing high, she can do max damage with -ara spells in her trance state against multiple enemies. She's a good fighter but she can do more as a mage imo. Seriously, I feel the games have about the same level of difficulty and both have highly abusive systems that only hardcore fans can appreciate cause they make 98% of battles in the games a joke.
If I want challenge in an FF, I generally don't play any game after V with the possible exception of XII. VI-X are all fairly easy imo with IX being the most challenging out of that group.
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Actually, there are plenty of weapons throughout the game that calls for the player to make a choice, whether it be little to no materia slots for higher ATK, or the growth issue. Just because you only remember the Yoshiyuki doesn't mean they're not there. :cool:
Granted I may be exaggerating (you also forgot the Powersoul and Motor Drive ;)) but I feel most players either stuck to materia growth or number of slots. Having higher ATK, at the cost of available options for combat seems like a boring choice. Its like using berzerkers in previous games, while potent, they make combat sorta boring. From reading other peoples thoughts about RPGs I notice "options in combat" tends to be high on the list concerning combat systems. Its why FFI and IV get so much hate cause they are the most limiting systems in the series. I do in fact experiment with weapons in VII but I feel the choices don't add to much in the end. I felt III, IV, and V did a better job considering how often weaknesses needed to be exploited in order to win battles.
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While I agree with, and definitely use, the principles of comparative advantage you talk about on every playthrough, I have to say you're really exaggerating here. Maybe you honestly believe this, but I've played VI plenty of times, and I just can't agree at all. Cyan and Edgar will be killer tanks throughout the game, no matter what espers you give them.
While I agree most of VI's cast starts off blatantly powerful and the stat system may be a waste cause overall, most maintain uber-ness throughout the game. Yet, if you are seeking efficiency and specification, its there, you just need to care about it. Once again this is a difference in taste.
I guess the best way to explain would be to take Aerith and twink her into an even more powerful mage through clever use of materia, equipment, and stat sources. Most would argue its pointless (ignoring the fact she leaves permanently after the first disc) cause Aerith already starts off as the games strongest mage and even trying to nerf her magic abilities will only knock her down into second place for the most part. Yet the joy of customizing her into a better and more efficient mage is fun for the most part. That in essence is what I enjoy about VI's Esper/Relic system. In the long run its pointless but I do gain some enjoyment out of it. :cool:
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I was simply referring to the casual gamer being able to play through it without having to focus too much on numbers or dragging him/herself through boring dungeons which look exactly like the last one (It got old really fast in VI). Of course VII is hardly the most in-depth RPG battle system, but the quest for efficiency is there if you desire it, and I myself fine tune my strategy, even just a little, each time I play.
I felt VI offered enough to prevent grinding in the game, half the cast is broken so leveling them up or teaching them magic is a moot point. With such a large cast, it inspires the player to play through a few more time trying out different parties and during these playthroughs, I feel the player begins to experiment more with the games customization system. As for dungeons, I never felt they were a problem in VI. In fact I enjoy the multi party puzzle dungeons quite a bit in VI so the two most painfully long dungeons (3 in the GBA version) at least have a bit more going for them.
At least I never got seriously lost cause I didn't realize the doorway to the next area was this poorly drawn black glob that mysteriously looks like part of the background. Or a light fixture that looks like a doorway is actually just part of the background. I got lost so many times my first time through VII (Mt. Nibel, Temple of the Ancients, Ice Cavern, and the Glacier). By the time I got out of the 1st disc my party level was in the high 60s :D
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Dude, that's like saying only jobs matter in III or V, or only equipment and spells matter in II, since the characters are even less distinct in those games than they are in VII. Actually, that's exactly what it's supposed to be, and I think all of those games have interesting systems, so it's hardly a fault at all. Just another cop out to bash the game.
Two things, One, it seriously doesn't matter who you take to fight Sephiroth at the end. Cloud has to be there but your other two party members don't matter cause it comes down to their materia set up cause by end game I feel stats are a moot point in VII. Just like in VI, VIII, and possible XII, it doesn't matter cause it comes down to how you set the party up it doesn't matter who you bring. If your strategy involves a heavy hitter and two mages, it doesn't matter who you is in your party cause the systems allow you to set up any character fulfill the strategy and differences are only minor.
Second, I just felt the limitations that earlier games had in conjunction with their systems offered more careful planning than later games. The fact of the matter is, unless you over level, certain classes and combinations just don't work in earlier titles. You cannot get through FFII and III without at least one character specializing in magic. You had to build teams to work for you and the fact of the matter is certain combos are infinitely better than others. The thing about the job class system is that every class has distinct strengths and weaknesses. You have to build your party in a way to exploit the strengths while covering the weaknesses.
Starting in FFVI, the game design was changed where careful planning and strategy existed but in the end was a moot point cause the systems are so open that any combination can work and any character can be changed to fulfill such roles. In fact, in VI, VII, and VIII. Your entire party can be the heavy hitter and the powerful mage and it takes little to no effort to build them that way. I blame it mostly on the nerfed difficulty. It doesn't make these games bad; in fact some are better than others in this regard. I just feel it exists in these games and when people complain about how the systems create clones, I understand where they are coming from. I hope that cleared up any confusion.
...to your mother! :cool:
