Final Fantasy VII: Overrated?

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08-02-2008, 11:24 PM
Slothy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

VII's statistic impact was immediate and noticeable. Loading a character with magic spells will diminish their physical attack, but give them a huge edge magically. But you still have to think with it, because loading up Barret or Cid will never make effective mages as it would Cloud or Red XIII.

The strategy is there, and as with all other FF's, the most effective battle plan is to capitalize on each character's strengths, even if it means further compromising their weaknesses - this has been all throughout the series.

Materia never had a noticeable impact on characters. Even altering their HP and MP, or other stats by what should be noticeable percentages does nothing to really affect their effectiveness in battle. Some are good at physical attacks, some aren't, and everyone can rock the house with magic. There was no strategy in FFVII except attack with magic (particularly if the enemy is weak against something), heal when you need to, and use limit breaks as soon as they fill up. Even if you're a little underleveled, that will pretty much guarentee that you never die. I'm not going to sit here and claim that a game like FFVI needed more strategy than that (despite being my favourite it really didn't though boosting stats makes more of a difference in it), but I've played VII more than enough to know that it's stats, weapon differences, and characters don't really matter. It stands as one of the easiest games in the series.
08-04-2008, 11:34 PM
Bolivar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivi22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

VII's statistic impact was immediate and noticeable. Loading a character with magic spells will diminish their physical attack, but give them a huge edge magically. But you still have to think with it, because loading up Barret or Cid will never make effective mages as it would Cloud or Red XIII.

The strategy is there, and as with all other FF's, the most effective battle plan is to capitalize on each character's strengths, even if it means further compromising their weaknesses - this has been all throughout the series.

Materia never had a noticeable impact on characters. Even altering their HP and MP, or other stats by what should be noticeable percentages does nothing to really affect their effectiveness in battle. Some are good at physical attacks, some aren't, and everyone can rock the house with magic. There was no strategy in FFVII except attack with magic (particularly if the enemy is weak against something), heal when you need to, and use limit breaks as soon as they fill up. Even if you're a little underleveled, that will pretty much guarentee that you never die. I'm not going to sit here and claim that a game like FFVI needed more strategy than that (despite being my favourite it really didn't though boosting stats makes more of a difference in it), but I've played VII more than enough to know that it's stats, weapon differences, and characters don't really matter. It stands as one of the easiest games in the series.

No offense, Vivi22, but when I used the word "noticeable", it meant that I noticed Barret's attack going down from (let's say) 105 to 92. I think that was made clear about how trivial it was.

And I actually already stated pretty much everything you said - the character differences are all very trivial. If you keep reading I describe how that was a part of VII's success.

Wolf, I actually read all of your post, and I gotta say, I think we've had the most in-depth discussion on FF battle systems I've seen on here. I really can't find anything wrong with what you have to say in that last one. At least we know that we both play VI and VII focusing on efficiency, even though we both very well know that both games can be beaten by 5 year olds.
08-05-2008, 01:14 AM
Wolf Kanno

Glad we came to an understanding :cool:
08-05-2008, 02:03 AM
Roto13

You're doing the internet wrong.
08-05-2008, 02:29 AM
Carl the Llama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roto13

I beat Sephiroth using only Knights of the Round over and over and over again. There's spamming to be done in VII.

When do you get KotR lol? right at the end of the game is where.

Where do you get {character ability} in VI? all over the game and most of the time you can learn it just by level said character (Terra and Celes for example can learn Ultima just from leveling).

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE JACKAL

I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed.

I actully prefer it this way so if for instance you think Tifa is a dirty smurfette then you dont have to use her, if you think Cait Sith is a traitor for handing over the life stione you dont have to use him either ect. (I think neither about either two examples just fyi)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere

No I actully dissagree here I never had to grind at any point during Final Fantasy VII.

And for people who want a challenge then here is my suggestion to you: DO a challenge lol, if you have played it through x amount of times then try maybe an innitial equips/materia/solo game/no limit breaks ect. then the game gets dramatically harder. The main reason for me to replay a game is much like the same reason im currently re-re-re-reading Shadow of a Dark Queen by Raymond E. Feist: for the story.
08-05-2008, 04:27 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roto13

You're doing the internet wrong.
08-05-2008, 07:48 PM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserDragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roto13

I beat Sephiroth using only Knights of the Round over and over and over again. There's spamming to be done in VII.

When do you get KotR lol? right at the end of the game is where.

Where do you get {character ability} in VI? all over the game and most of the time you can learn it just by level said character (Terra and Celes for example can learn Ultima just from leveling).

Celes cannot learn Ultima naturally if memory serves me correct, she gets Meteor. You also act like they learn it at lv. 30 when in fact they get the uber spells in the high 90s. I think it would be easier to just wait and get the Ragnarok esper or the Paladin Shield towards the end of the game...

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE JACKAL

I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed.

I actully prefer it this way so if for instance you think Tifa is a dirty smurfette then you dont have to use her, if you think Cait Sith is a traitor for handing over the life stione you dont have to use him either ect. (I think neither about either two examples just fyi)

I think he meant gameplay wise. Except for Limit Breaks most of the cast is pretty much the same with minor stat differences. VIII had a similiar problem.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere

No I actually disagree here I never had to grind at any point during Final Fantasy VII.

And for people who want a challenge then here is my suggestion to you: DO a challenge lol, if you have played it through x amount of times then try maybe an initial equips/materia/solo game/no limit breaks etc. then the game gets dramatically harder. The main reason for me to replay a game is much like the same reason im currently re-re-re-reading Shadow of a Dark Queen by Raymond E. Feist: for the story.

Let me clarify my statement. If you want the high level abilities, Limit Breaks, or master materia you have to grind. Cloud is about the only character guaranteed to get all his Limit breaks while the others actually have to work for it (unless you do what I do and consistently use the same party.). 4X-Cut, Mug, Coin Toss, Ultima, Flare, and Full-Cure all require some dedication to obtain and use. Granted, you don't need any of these abilities to win. Sephiroth isn't exactly the hardest boss in gaming history but if you wanted to gain high level abilities or be able to cast Bahamut Zero more than once, you seriously need to grind to get it to happen.

Its like saying you can teach every magic spell in VI to a character without grinding or cheating. It's not going to happen. You may come closer than you would if you decided to make a set of master materia in VII without grinding but its still not realistic.

As for the challenge argument. That's fine when you are bored and pretty much mastered a game but I want a game that will challenge me without me having to make handicaps for myself. I'm not even asking for brutal "kick my ass" and "spam my powerful abilities" difficulty, just one that requires a bit more strategy and feels more rewarding. Challenge disappeared in the series. I want to feel like I earned my equipment or my next story sequence. The series has reached a point where a strategy for easy victory in a boss battle is to just spam normal attacks until it dies and you have a high chance of succeeding.

I don't see how the game developer has succeeded in creating a fun and rewarding experience. I feel they cater too much to the casual crowd or newbies to the franchise. Granted I don't feel catering to the hardcore is any better I just want a nice balance. I seriously dislike how developers make their games noob friendly and give hardcore players optional super challenges that in the long run doesn't do anything. Why must I wait to the end of the game to finally enjoy it? Especially at the end of the day it earns me nothing of value?
08-05-2008, 10:15 PM
Carl the Llama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserDragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roto13

I beat Sephiroth using only Knights of the Round over and over and over again. There's spamming to be done in VII.

When do you get KotR lol? right at the end of the game is where.

Where do you get {character ability} in VI? all over the game and most of the time you can learn it just by level said character (Terra and Celes for example can learn Ultima just from leveling).

Celes cannot learn Ultima naturally if memory serves me correct, she gets Meteor. You also act like they learn it at lv. 30 when in fact they get the uber spells in the high 90s. I think it would be easier to just wait and get the Ragnarok esper or the Paladin Shield towards the end of the game...

I was useing Ultima just as an example, lots of powerful abilitys (Cyans Quadra slam is a great ability to spam for instance).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserDragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE JACKAL

I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed.

I actully prefer it this way so if for instance you think Tifa is a dirty smurfette then you dont have to use her, if you think Cait Sith is a traitor for handing over the life stione you dont have to use him either ect. (I think neither about either two examples just fyi)

I think he meant gameplay wise. Except for Limit Breaks most of the cast is pretty much the same with minor stat differences. VIII had a similiar problem.

If you read his post he is talking about the battle system, therefor my previous point stands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Let me clarify my statement. If you want the high level abilities, Limit Breaks, or master materia you have to grind.

Beating Emerald Weapon doesnt require mass leveling and I have one simple pice of Materia that will allow you to repete the same summon over and over again: Mime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Cloud is about the only character guaranteed to get all his Limit breaks while the others actually have to work for it

Again I must dissagree, every character requires much less kills to get their limits up, all you have to do is decide on who you want to use then kill all your enemys throughout the game with the aformentioned characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

4X-Cut, Mug, Coin Toss, Ultima, Flare, and Full-Cure all require some dedication to obtain and use. Granted, you don't need any of these abilities to win. Sephiroth isn't exactly the hardest boss in gaming history but if you wanted to gain high level abilities or be able to cast Bahamut Zero more than once, you seriously need to grind to get it to happen.

Ultima, Flare and FullCure can all be cast with Master Magic which you get from Emmy, Coin Toss you get with Master Command, Mug im not sure (been a long time cant remember if its included in Master Comand) which leaves 4x cut... hardly nessisary to beat anything, like you say its a very easy game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

As for the challenge argument. That's fine when you are bored and pretty much mastered a game but I want a game that will challenge me without me having to make handicaps for myself. I'm not even asking for brutal "kick my ass" and "spam my powerful abilities" difficulty, just one that requires a bit more strategy and feels more rewarding. Challenge disappeared in the series. I want to feel like I earned my equipment or my next story sequence. The series has reached a point where a strategy for easy victory in a boss battle is to just spam normal attacks until it dies and you have a high chance of succeeding.

Its the same with every Final Fantasy I have played (with XI being the exception) if you want a challenge then go play Valkirye Profile 2 lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't see how the game developer has succeeded in creating a fun and rewarding experience. I feel they cater too much to the casual crowd or newbies to the franchise. Granted I don't feel catering to the hardcore is any better I just want a nice balance. I seriously dislike how developers make their games noob friendly and give hardcore players optional super challenges that in the long run doesn't do anything. Why must I wait to the end of the game to finally enjoy it? Especially at the end of the day it earns me nothing of value?

I think your prolly setting your hopes to high there are very few RPG's on the market atm that have the level of difficulty your looking for (at least IMO). Maybe you should think about trying other games and just play the Final Fantasy's for fun and not a challenge.
08-05-2008, 10:24 PM
Goldenboko

Just like to point out real quick, there are RPG's out with difficulty, the main FF's have not been difficult, but many RPG's still are, I can't be the only one who found DQVII hard. And Revenant Wings kicks my butt all the time.
08-05-2008, 11:25 PM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserDragon

I was using Ultima just as an example, lots of powerful abilities (Cyan's Quadra Slam is a great ability to spam for instance).

I understand, I was just pointing out the error in logic with your original example.

Quote:

If you read his post he is talking about the battle system, therefor my previous point stands

I read it wrong and see its a difference in taste but I agree with The Jackal that loss of individuality with the characters gives little incentive to use the other party members.

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Quote:

Beating Emerald Weapon doesnt require mass leveling and I have one simple pice of Materia that will allow you to repete the same summon over and over again: Mime.

I never mentioned beating the Weapons, I stated that getting the abilities naturally required grinding. Also, having one mime materia and an underdeveloped KotR doesn't equate victory against Emerald. As soon as the Mime dies its game over since he'll mime the last action and having a KotR that can only cast once isn't helpful...

Quote:

Again I must disagree, every character requires much less kills to get their limits up, all you have to do is decide on who you want to use then kill all your enemies throughout the game with the aforementioned characters.

I stated in the rest of that paragraph that its possible to level up your other two non-Cloud party members if you keep them in the party throughout the game but my argument concerns getting everyone's Limit Break. Also if you switch out your party constantly, very few will have all their LBs by the end of disc 2. Its not like the scenario's in Disc 2 are incredibly long.

Quote:

Ultima, Flare and Full-Cure can all be cast with Master Magic which you get from Emmy, Coin Toss you get with Master Command, Mug I'm not sure (been a long time cant remember if its included in Master Command) which leaves 4x cut... hardly necessary to beat anything, like you say its a very easy game.

I agree you don't need them to finish the game but I'll point you back to the argument about Emerald easily being beaten with the minimum requirements. Other than that, you need to level the materia.

Quote:

Its the same with every Final Fantasy I have played (with XI being the exception) if you want a challenge then go play Valkyrie Profile 2 lol

Yeah but the series used to be challenging. I just miss that about the old games. Sure they were short but you were definetly more engrossed into the gameplay. I feel XII was step in the right direction though so I guess I can hope for the best. ;)

Quote:

I think your probably setting your hopes to high there are very few RPG's on the market atm that have the level of difficulty your looking for (at least IMO). Maybe you should think about trying other games and just play the Final Fantasy's for fun and not a challenge.

I don't generally play FF for challenge and lately, I don't play them for plot or characters anymore either I'm afraid. :( There are a few challenging RPGs, the MegaTen games and many SRPGs have quite abit of challenge. As Boko mentioned, DQ is also a pretty challenging series as well if a bit grind-happy.
08-06-2008, 02:49 AM
Hyperion4444

pretty heavy debate you all have going along.
btw, Didn't this thread started on 'is FFVII is too overated?'
I think you're living proof of thoses true FFVII fans.

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