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You mean you prefer a substandard translation rather than one that actually carries through with the original intent? This isn't a matter of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The original was broken, in many ways. The localization of the original game was piss poor, no matter how you look at it. Certainly this was rather endearing in certain places, but the dialogue was shoddy. I think the new translation more accurately reflects Matsuno's original vision.
I think the original dialog was crap, and that people shouldn't judge these things based on nostalgia. The PSP version does a MUCH better job at conveying the intent of the Japanese dialog. The Ye Olde English feel was what the original game was going for, and it sounds much more elegant than "Blame yourself or God." (Which doesn't even sound grammatically correct, even though it fundamentally is)
The line does still basically translate back to "Let it go, it's your fault". But yeah, the tone's not Delita at all. Delita's meant to be a common man who's there at the grace of someone else's charity, if memory serves.
Since everyone wants to nitpicky, yes that was a crappy localization, the new game doesn't have and Ye Old English fell because Old English looks and sounds like German, so unless you know German your better off with the Middle English feel, and if you want the true feeling or intent your just gonna have to learn Japanese and play the Japanese version. I don't like shoddy dialogue or scripting of course but I also like a less convoluted format, it ain't nostalgia homies just plain linguistic preference.
Well said, thats about where I'm at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziekfried
I like the "old" feeling of this translation. Which is rather strange, because FF XII's translation, which was probably going for the same kind of feeling, at times irritates me. The reason is that for a non-native English speaker like I am it is unncessarily convoluted and obscure.
This new translation isn't obscure in the very least, and yet it sounds refined and elegant.
FFT's original localization was nigh-incomprehensible gibberish. I don't think that would have been a good style for FFXII to adopt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Rimoah
FFXII's translation was genius IMO.
Better than Shakespeare.
FFT's new translation was good as well, but not quite as good as FFXII's.
Aw c'mon Shmacky (I call everybody that like Bugs Bunny calls people Doc),you're better than that... You KNOW what I meant. I'm not referring to the BAD Translations I'm referring to the original dialouge that although mis-translated it didn't need a COMPLETE OVER-HAUL of dialect to try to transform it into Shakespeare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii RyűkishiFFT's original localization was nigh-incomprehensible gibberish. I don't think that would have been a good style for FFXII to adopt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Rimoah
Wow, I didn't know the new version was rendered so differently in terms of speech... and I don't like it.
First off, let me say, I've always felt that just throwing "thee"s and "thou"s and Shakespearian parsing for words into something set in a vaguely middle aged/renaissance type setting, ESPECIALLY a fantasy work, is rather dumb. It's like you're trying to add authenticity that can't really exist, because while in our middle ages people may have talked that way, who's to say they did in these? Beyond that, this may be further in the future in their world than the middle ages are in comparison to ours, and finally, to the people of the old world, hearing things that way wasn't different to them than how we hear things said in our dialects and slang today, so really it's not even anachronistic, much less a violation of theme to use "modern" English in an English game even if it is set in a time period further back.
As for the words themselves, that particular line disappoints me, because it communicates things about Delita's character. It's apologetic and polite, with room for interpretation of sarcasm. But Delita wasn't really any of those things. He's a utilitarian pragmatist, and rendering him as some kind of gentleman villain does an immense injustice to the harsh machiavellian practicality that characterized him.
Needless to say, I don't like it. =)
^I completely diagree with you there. The beauty of the translation gives it a weight and elegance that is truly fascinating to read. Its not like they throw 'thee' and 'thou' in there - its a masterfully translated work that sounds natural and powerful. I felt that many linguistical techniques were used successfully to heighten the effect.
I disagree with your claim that Delita was purely a utilitarian pragmatist. Quotes such as this about Ovelia: 'I know only this. To save her life I would gladly give my own' and 'Do you remember, Ramza, when your father showed us how to make a whistle of a blade of grass?'Quote:
As for the words themselves, that particular line disappoints me, because it communicates things about Delita's character. It's apologetic and polite, with room for interpretation of sarcasm. But Delita wasn't really any of those things. He's a utilitarian pragmatist, and rendering him as some kind of gentleman villain does an immense injustice to the harsh machiavellian practicality that characterized him.
He is actually a rather philosophical and emotional person. But he is also very logical and pragmatic, and that pragmatic side of him domninates his actions making them seem purely utilitarianistic. But, I feel, given the chance he is a very caring person who does care about humanity. It is only the circumstances that forced that change upon him.
Of course, at the end, Ovelia failed to realise this other side of him, with tragic consequences. While he was highly manipulative, he didnt enjoy being so. Thats a key difference.
Haha well the parsing and phrasing is a matter of taste, and there's really no debating that, so I won't bother countering there.
As far as Delita himself is concerned, I never once said he wasn't emotional, and honestly I think he has a greater grasp of each other character's motivations and even their self deceptions (Ramza is more than a little self righteous, and has pride/vanity issues imho). Unfortunately this degree of perspective tends to breed quite a bit of cynicism in people, and I think that at the end of the day, Delita weighed the worth of emotional attachment against the weight of responsibility of the state and came out deciding the latter was more important. Obviously he didn't stop "feeling" at that moment, but at no point in the story does he seem to have any problem sacrificing attachment for the sake of his vision of the "greater good." Being utilitarian doesn't mean you lack emotion, it means that you're capable of setting that emotion aside and making hard choices (be they wrong or right). Also keep in mind that the "remember when father taught us to play the reed flute" came before the death of Delita's sister, which I think played pretty much the greatest role in the hardening of his heart, but ultimately I think he was on a collision course with the machiavellian mindset he ends up with from the very beginning, regardless of her death. But yes, in the prologue and also fairly early in the main storyline, he lets his emotional side show through more, it's difficult to know if he was simply performing to get a desired response, or allowing a bit of his true feelings to shine through while still doing 'the practical thing'.
He's a complicated bastard.
Like what you did there. :pQuote:
"remember when father taught us to play the reed flute"
Agreed.Quote:
it's difficult to know if he was simply performing to get a desired response, or allowing a bit of his true feelings to shine through while still doing 'the practical thing'.
He's a complicated bastard.
I empathise a lot with him, because I feel I would do the same as he did in his position.
One thing I dont get is the bit where he says: 'All of them are swept up in a mighty current. I simply swim against it'.
Or something like that. What I dont get is that I dont think he does swim against the current. In fact, he swims with it, using the very tools of manipulation and deceit that the rest of them did.
Agreed, haha but I guess that's the thing about hypocrisy, you yourself are usually the last one to realize your worldview carries with it a double standard. I will say I think when talks about "the stream" he's referring more to the class divisions and biases than he is to the tools used by those individual classes. Let's face it, the Hokuten, Nanten, Shrine Knights, along with the Death Corps and all the other "freedom fighters" and radicals trying to escape oppression from higher classes use manipulation, the only difference in Delita's case is that he used it successfully. Ultimately I think "swimming against the stream" means he had bigger plans than being a token charity case for some noble family, or even a powerful leader in the church; he had his sights set on the greatest prize there was in Ivalice (debatable, of course, but in his eyes the greatest).Quote:
Or something like that. What I dont get is that I dont think he does swim against the current. In fact, he swims with it, using the very tools of manipulation and deceit that the rest of them did.
Actually... I too had thought those were his remade lines, but in fact, "Blame yourself, or God" lines were completely left out, only by some slight hacking can one see the translated line as it was meant to be in WoTL...
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...11604_0147.png
Porting the script and event instructions back to the PSX (except for the cutscenes of course) we've managed to find this little bit, which in my opinion this line fits his overly snarky, condescending attitude. (pretty much towards his own "bosses".)
But back to Delita himself...
I don't think he thought of himself as a tyrannic manipulator. Balmafula reproaches him once on using Ramza as he does after they meet at Zeltennia. Delita goes on to ignore her and tell her to leave him be. I had always thought he killed Ovelia for those reasons and those reasons only. "One day you'll toss me aside, just as you did Ramza!"
Notice Delita doesn't strike her until she says that. Delita seems to hate being told that he's a bad man of any sort. He really did not want to believe that Ramza's death was his fault, though her saying what she did probably brought up some old feelings which lay dormant, but regardless, a combination of reflex and rage took a hold and he plunged the knife into her. He wanted to believe himself to be a hero and would take that mantle in any way possible. When there are those that say adverse, it enrages him. Balmafula before and Ovelia at that point. Of course Ovelia had happened to stab him as well, to add fuel to the already raging forest fire.