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Damn Raubtier, tell us how you REALLY feel :p.
Anyway, customization or not, it was kinda cool for me to toy around with relics to see what effects I could get(which, admittedly was a gameplay gimmick I think FFVII improved). The best example of which was when I gave Locke a Thief's Glove, and a Genji Glove, which not only allows him to mug, he can now mug twice in a row. Even if the game's customization isn't too deep, it's tiny discoveries like that which brings FFVI so close to my heart.
What an awesome debate! :D
First, I'm going to support The Man in that Final Fantasy VI does have deep customization, both in the short term and in the long term. Short-term: each character has access to multiple weapon and armor classes not to mention two accessories. When you compile FFVI's long inventory of equipment with meaningful stat and ability modifiers, that is quite a monster of customization you have there.Long-term: we have Espers, who not only teach you permanent spells, but grant a permanent stat boost upon levelling. That also allows your characters to look radically different at the end of the game depending on what you've done each playthrough.
But now I gotta step up to The Man... First of all, I'm confused, is DQ "not even close" as you said in the beginning or does it "come close to rivalling FFVI" as you said in the end? And while you acknowledge that DQV had a wider scope in its story, the only way you really dismiss it is by saying FFVI had better world building because each town had someone tangibly important to the plot. Really? A LOT OF RPGs have meaningful characters in each town much in the same way. The founder of the Final Fantasy series had the Elf Prince, Dr. Unne, the Council of Maegi, the Mermaid side stories. The Shining Force games did this. Final Fantasy XII had ensemble casts within each town that were totally distinct with their own history and were already in the midst of a compelling and longstanding struggle before the main game even begins, much less by the time the party shows up. So really, this is a very subjective aspect very small compared to the size of this debate, when just because FFVI's world-building attempts worked well for you doesn't stop any of us from naming half a dozen titles off the top of our heads that had far, far better world building than Final Fantasy VI.
Wolf - are you smurfing kidding me? Picking two vastly different kinds of scenes which serve fundamentally different purposes in the story and putting them together as if they're representative of either game's storytelling? Or taking pictures from Matsuno's SNES games and absolutely ignoring the fact that they are completely different games and instead saying that it must be because of Final Fantasy VI? Can you in any remote way even begin to elaborate on how these examples have any substance at all in explaining the impact of Final Fantasy VI?
That's a rhetorical question, because we both know you can't.
That right there is actually the definition of customization, I am picking and choosing the skills I want for a party member and there are several characters in VI who really don't need magic so teaching them is a waste of the player's time. By the way you are arguing this, there is no customization in JRPGs because you are obligated to always use everything for every character, which I don't agree with. I can use your argument on every FF except FFI for crying out loud. So unless you're saying that customization only exists if you "roll the character" like a Western RPG or MMO, then I feel your argument is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRaubtier
Equipment is hardly new and I'm not implying VI somehow how did it magically different besides the Relics but it is an important part of VI as your equipment is often more important end game than what magic your taught your characters. The statistical bonuses for Magic and strength are also far more noticeable, most of the games best gear is not even the ones with the highest attack power. Doesn't mean its not equally as important in other games of course but there are also a lot of games where the you end up just equipping the next weapon or armor whose main stat is higher than what they have already equipped. VI at least mixed that up a bit, though it was nothing new.
Smurf man, Fallout 3's ending is largely the same no matter what you do and yet it's considered a non-linear game. I'm not even suggesting VI is in Elder Scroll territory, I am only stating the obvious which is that the player is handed control of how the sequence of events unfold and how certain choices by the player will actually modify the ending or your ability to even partake of some of the optional content. Choose to ignore getting Relm back, well looks like Strago is in that cult until Kefka is gone. Chose to jump ship ASAP at the Floating Continent, well Shadow is now dead and you lose the ability to see the final dream revealing his backstory, but you gain the ability to see Relm's dream. Simply recruit everyone and head straight to Kekfa, you lose out on learning about Strago's past, watching Cyan gain closure to his story, Terra learning that her parents were not the only ones to bridge the barrier over Esper/Human relations, Closure to Gau's story, and a few more things. Choosing to save Cid even nets you two very different outcomes so the fact the player's decisions can impact the story would by definition mean that not only is the story not completely on rails linear, but also means the player has reason to play the game to change their decisions and see different outcomes, meaning there is some replay value here. :pQuote:
Some scenes are altered depending on which characters you've reunited with. The final outcome, more or less, remains exactly the same. That isn't replay value. Additionally, reuniting with characters is optional - I doubt there's any game other game anyone would claim that optional content equals non-linearity.
(work time bbl)
Why yes, I'll ignore your coy plea to prove you wrong. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
The point of the images used in DQ shows the inherent difference in how sprites are used to create a connection with the player. The problem with DQ1-5 is that their sprites are utterly flat, they are the video game equivalent of a playmobil person with no real arms or ability to express themselves without the aid of some other devices. The main hero from DQV, if he was asleep looks like he is simply topped over on his back on top of the bed sprite. As opposed to DQVI where the MC's sprite is animated with arms and legs sprawled out on the floor, the player instantly can tell the mood of the scene from just looking at the image and that scene isn't even all that important. Whereas the bulk of DQV's sprites and scenes is just their plastic toy sprites with some text. It's not a bad style mind you as I like how it lures the player into using their own imagination to see the scene but in terms of immersion and understanding context, the use of expressive sprites is better. VI was the SNES game that really used sprites like this to tell a story, I mean only Chrono Trigger and Mana have sprites on par with the level of detail and repertoire of expressions.
One step back from the bigger picture of gaming in the era, and you can pretty much notice that these types of sprites are being used to immerse the player in stories by being more fluid actors for the player. In FFV, Bartz could shuffle back and forth to dance, laugh, and shut his eyes. Terra can be surprised, laughed, determined, sing, crumple over in defeat, dance, fly, and look forlorn. If you look closely, though you'll notice there is a difference before and after VI came out. DQ has kept the same kind of sprites for five games with much success I might add, but even they dabbled with trying to create a more immersive experience for the player with their follow up game which came out after VI came out. As I said, most games that use these more detailed sprites in the SNES era came post-VI, so I feel is some logic to my madness.:p
As for Matsuno, well that was mostly to screw with you. :joker:
It's still not customisation if you're refusing to learn an ability that can be learnt without penalty (time/order not withstanding), it's more like you've simply neglected to maximise that character's abilities. For example, take Cloud's limit breaks in 7. It's quite possible to learn Meteorain before Climhazard, and the former is so much better. Am I customising Cloud by switching to limit 3 before learning Climhazard? (I feel at this point it's necessary to point out the answer is 'no'). Meanwhile, I've also equipped Cloud with a fire materia. As long as that materia is equipped, I can't use that same slot for anything else. Additionally, once I remove that materia, Cloud cannot use Fire. Compare to 6, where you have the same system with magicite, sure, until you earn a maximum of 100 ABP, at which point you can remove your magicite and continue to use whichever spell(s) you just learnt at any time without penalty. That's the difference between a system that is customisable and one that is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Actually, you can't! :p Even 1 forces you to pick only 3 out of 4 spells available for each magic level. You'd only be successful trying to apply it to 4.Quote:
I can use your argument on every FF except FFI for crying out loud.
Again, this is entirely industry standard. I can't think of any game where ignoring appropriate stat bonuses in favour of simple attack power results in better results. Further, your point is entirely invalidated due to the lack of difficulty in 6, where a lack of any difficulty to speak of kind of renders any thought about equipment moot.Quote:
Equipment is hardly new and I'm not implying VI somehow how did it magically different besides the Relics but it is an important part of VI as your equipment is often more important end game than what magic your taught your characters.
As for relics, well, maybe if there were more than half a dozen that did anything unique. The vast majority just do typical accessory stuff.
You seem to have confused the concepts of optional content and linearity of content here! To be fair, my paragraph wasn't as well articulated as it could have been since I needed to head to work. If any content is optional, then of course it's going to be non-linear. And while 6 certainly gains points for the sheer volume of optional content (yet only at the late game stage), trying to claim that optional content is non-linear is pretty bogus.Quote:
Smurf man, Fallout 3's ending is largely the same no matter what you do and yet it's considered a non-linear game. I'm not even suggesting VI is in Elder Scroll territory, I am only stating the obvious which is that the player is handed control of how the sequence of events unfold and how certain choices by the player will actually modify the ending or your ability to even partake of some of the optional content.
Linear content? In YOUR non-linear endgame?????Quote:
Choose to ignore getting Relm back, well looks like Strago is in that cult until Kefka is gone.
Quote:
Chose to jump ship ASAP at the Floating Continent, well Shadow is now dead and you lose the ability to see the final dream revealing his backstory, but you gain the ability to see Relm's dream.
I think there's a lot of misconception over Shadow. I don't even know which of "missable" or "optional" is more appropriate, considering to even use him you have to do something entirely unintuitive and unconventional. I'd imagine that his being killed off is the normal option. Regardless, sure, well call these minor details you'd have to slog through 30 hours of gameplay to see a couple of small changes "replay value."Quote:
Choosing to save Cid even nets you two very different outcomes
We'll be fair, here, and throw in the three or so scenes that change depending on what characters you've reunited with at the end of the game. This is barely even worth replaying the entire game for, as you can simply reload a save form before recruiting the relevant character to make the difference. For most characters, though, the endings simply show a portrait of the character you missed and pans some scenery during their unique scenes. That's not replay, that's missed content.
All optional content, and not even stuff you have to play through the entire game again just to see.Quote:
Simply recruit everyone and head straight to Kekfa, you lose out on learning about Strago's past, watching Cyan gain closure to his story, Terra learning that her parents were not the only ones to bridge the barrier over Esper/Human relations, Closure to Gau's story, and a few more things.
You offered two points. The first was, to your own admission, mostly irrelevant, and the second was bogus entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
This right here is my main problem with VI. The game's lack of difficulty is one thing, but the customization system is based entirely on how much time the player has to dedicate to teaching every character every spell. I find that at some point of every playthrough of VI I've done, I've gotten to the point where I just start teaching characters spells they don't have yet, because they have everything else they already need. "Sabin is missing stuff from his spellbook and the game gives way more EXP and AP than I need to win... alright, might as well hook him up with Osmose or Imp."Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRaubtier
This is what makes VII that much more enjoyable for me. Quick, easy customization. The party is just a group of glorified materia combo slots - the real party begins when you start distributing gems and ending up in various types of party builds (of course, VII also suffers from the lack-of-difficulty problem, so.) In VI, you have a dozen characters and two dozen skill-teaching gems which can be equipped on each of the characters in order to make the skills "stick" over time. It's not long after you get your first handful of Magicite that VI's "customization" starts to feel more like admin work with regards to spells and level-up bonuses.Quote:
...I've also equipped Cloud with a fire materia. As long as that materia is equipped, I can't use that same slot for anything else. Additionally, once I remove that materia, Cloud cannot use Fire. Compare to 6, where you have the same system with magicite, sure, until you earn a maximum of 100 ABP, at which point you can remove your magicite and continue to use whichever spell(s) you just learnt at any time without penalty.
Yes. The Shadow/Floating Continent issue is just pointlessly obtuse. In a situation with such stakes, why should the player be expected to stand around in a hostile zone (where any step can result in a timer-draining encounter) and wait for an NPC to arrive while the airship is plainly in sight. Especially given the fact that in no other area in the 15-hour game up to this point does the game clue the player into this sort of field-gameplay reactivity.Quote:
I think there's a lot of misconception over Shadow. I don't even know which of "missable" or "optional" is more appropriate, considering to even use him you have to do something entirely unintuitive and unconventional. I'd imagine that his being killed off is the normal option. Regardless, sure, well call these minor details you'd have to slog through 30 hours of gameplay to see a couple of small changes "replay value."
We'll be fair, here, and throw in the three or so scenes that change depending on what characters you've reunited with at the end of the game. This is barely even worth replaying the entire game for, as you can simply reload a save form before recruiting the relevant character to make the difference. For most characters, though, the endings simply show a portrait of the character you missed and pans some scenery during their unique scenes. That's not replay, that's missed content.
Not only that, but once the player realizes the secret behind the gimmick, there's never a reason to not wait around. Unless of course the player is making an active effort to throw away a potential party member for good - which is not a meaningful choice but a gameplay 'failure' that the player is subjecting himself to for the chance at some miniscule optional story content buried a mile deep into the game's lore and code.
I would hope so, but it worked considering my whole "rhetorical question, you can't" stance :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
You're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1855/dq5hero.png
Hero can bulge his eyes to look surprised, wipe his brow to look relieved, or assume a fighting stance in precarious situations. Character sprite animations have been important since Final Fantasy II, specifically the scene where Paul breaks the party out of the Palamecia prison. Final Fantasy VI has excellent sprite animations, but its additions weren't sufficiently larger than Final Fantasy V to be surprising.
Even if it was, FFVI's importance is irrelevant to the question of whether FFVI has been surpassed, especially in light of the assertion that FFVI was surpassed by a lot of its contemporaries on the SNES, before and after its own release date.
I'm also going to throw in with WildRaubtier that FFVI's nonlinearity is not such an exciting thing. It really does mostly amount to optional content, and in reality there is a logical way to follow a geographical path to re-recruit every character. They really did just take a linear story path and make it all optional. Saying Final Fantasy VI is nonlinear is like saying Mega Man X is nonlinear. Just because you can pick an order to do things doesn't change the character of an overall linear experience.
I do have to disagree with WildRaubtier for this:
Gauntlet: allows characters to equip one weapon with two hands for extra damageQuote:
Originally Posted by WildRaubtier
Master's Scroll/Offering: allows character to attack four times in a row
Dragoon Boots: changes Fight command to Jump
Genji Glove: allows character to Dual Wield
Brigand's/Thief Glove: Allows Locke to Mug instead of Steal
Coin Toss: Changes Setzer's Slots into Gil Toss
Economizer: Makes all spells cost 1 MP
That's more than half-a-dozen. The full list is here. As I said in my post, allowing most characters to equip multiple armor and weapon classes, in tandemn with the relic system and magicite makes for a ton of customization. I would definitely say it's on the same level as FFVII, just broken up in different ways.
I was referring to that page when writing up my post! Also, the Gauntlet is nothing more than a conditional attack boost, which makes it irrelevant to your list, which makes your list exactly half a dozen! :p I'd argue that the economiser is in the same class, being a stat changing accessory.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarGauntlet: allows characters to equip one weapon with two hands for extra damageQuote:
Originally Posted by WildRaubtier
Master's Scroll/Offering: allows character to attack four times in a row
Dragoon Boots: changes Fight command to Jump
Genji Glove: allows character to Dual Wield
Brigand's/Thief Glove: Allows Locke to Mug instead of Steal
Coin Toss: Changes Setzer's Slots into Gil Toss
Economizer: Makes all spells cost 1 MP
That's more than half-a-dozen. The full list is here.
Pittances aside, here's a rough breakdown of Relics:
Resistance/Attribute/Status changing + Non-battle system effects (AKA Typical Accessory Fare):
(For brevity's sake, I'm going to exclude anything listed on that wikia page under the preventing statuses, adding statuses, improving physical attributes, improving magic attributes, improving both physical and magical attributes, affecting battles, effective outside battle headings unless otherwise listed as they mostly come here anyway)
Protect Ring
Thief's Bracer
Memento Ring
Moogle's Charm
Berserker Ring (You could argue this one, but I'm going to say a chance at a higher damage attack is just a critical hit)
Bone Wrist
(...and now for the ones that actually count towards a customisation argument)
Add/Change Character Abilities
Knight's Code
Black Belt
Dragoon Boots
Fake Moustache (I'm skeptical here, as control and sketch are essentially the same)
Coin Toss
Blizzard Orb
Genji Glove *
Merit Award *
(* denotes a "change equippable equipment" subset and are debatable inclusions)
Perform Multiple Actions per Round
Dragon Horn
Offering
Gem Box
Thief Gloves
So roughly twelve, or one fifth, of all relics have any unique "customisation" worth. It's double what I said, but still less than what would be reasonable to support the sort of claims everyone is making.
Equipping different gear does not equal customisation. I feel like I've been trusting this argument too much to intuition, so I'm going to provide the following assertion for others to challenge: "Equipment boils down to, optional or otherwise, story driven (read: accessibility) attribute bonuses akin to leveling. This is limited by static character class and therefore not uniquely customisable."Quote:
As I said in my post, allowing most characters to equip multiple armor and weapon classes, in tandemn with the relic system and magicite makes for a ton of customization. I would definitely say it's on the same level as FFVII, just broken up in different ways.
Relics, by which I mean the dozen or so I outlined above, as well as magicite, offer about 30 customisation options, most of which are exclusive to each other. That is nowhere near as deep as 7. To reiterate:
You are so very wrong!Quote:
I would definitely say it's on the same level as FFVII, just broken up in different ways.
Well, I'm a huge FFVII fan, so I'm very tempted to concede on this issue :choc2:
As far as your assertion, what "equipment boils down to," I guess I can't really dispute that the FFVI characters are somewhat limited by their thinly-hidden classes. Dragoon Boots notwithstanding, it is hard to truly change your characters outside of what magic they learn. I do appreciate how FFVII divided materia up into five categories, specifically how Command (yellow) materia can be used to teach any character any of the abilities. And while I might be willing to admit that FFVII's armlet system streamlined the perhaps unnecessarily encumbering (no pun intended) armor set system, I do still think weapon classes were important in FFVI, as you had a choice of different routes to go with your characters outside of just more damage or a unique ability. You have to at least admit that whereas FFVII had things like Fire materia teaching a spell and boosting MP/Magic and Cover granting the cover passive while boosting Vitality, we can easily point to similar options in FFVI, just broken up in a different way. Of course, one difference is that FFVII also bestowed banes as well as boons, thus making choices more meaningful.
Anyway, gameplay systems in RPGs is one of my favorite topics to talk about and this has been a pretty good debate. I'm just going to say I look at FFVI much how I look at FFIX: despite clear defining lines of what each character is and isn't, the game still allows for a lot of customization within each character's job.
Wow three VII fanboys jump in, guess IGN got you steamed. ;) Also, some of you need spell check... :argh:
Dude, seriously, that is customization either way. I mean why should I teach Cyan, who has an abysmal magic stat to begin with something I never intend for him to use? There is no reason to teach every character every magic spell unless you are compelledQuote:
Originally Posted by WildRaubtier
by some OCD reasoning to fill up some arbitrary list and likewise, Master Materia baby. I can still do the same thing in VII if I wanted to. :p
Depends on what you are trying to do, if all you want is a more powerful move, then yes switch to Meteorain, cause it is better. If your goal was to learn Omnislash, then you must stay Put and learn Climhazzard so you can meet the requirement to unlock it. Yet if I wanted to stay using his Level 2 because they fill his limit gauge faster and thus potentially can cause more damage overtime depending on when I learned the Meteorain, I can do that as well because I'm sacrificing power for a more reliable source of gaining extra damage for tough battles, especially if my real goal is to use the 2x charge of the ATB gauge as a means to heal/buff my party in an emergency. So yes, I can customize a character using limit breaks to make a more efficient healer and I get results.Quote:
For example, take Cloud's limit breaks in 7. It's quite possible to learn Meteorain before Climhazard, and the former is so much better. Am I customizing Cloud by switching to limit 3 before learning Climhazard? (I feel at this point it's necessary to point out the answer is 'no').
Likewise in VI, I can simply teach Cyan spells that may be useful and disregard the rest cause all he needs from Espers is the stat bonuses they give him.
Well no, cause I can choose to teach a character or not, of anything customization in the classic sense(D&D) is suppose to be permanent rather than transient, meaning that teaching fire magic to a character carries consequences since it is permanent, whereas VII allows you to fix mistakes you may make. On the other hand, I can build permanent classes I have to live with. I can teach Setzer to be a Time Mage with the right espers and I must live with that choice, I could also make everyone into time mages but I'm also not stupid and realize that is not a fun way to play a game. Likewise in VII I can make all my character Time mages or I can make one them do it. The difference here is pretty arbitrary sense often in customization it's what you don't teach a character that is more important. The fact VII allows you to go back to zero is a plus but it doesn't make VI's system not a customization system, just something you don't care for.Quote:
Meanwhile, I've also equipped Cloud with a fire materia. As long as that materia is equipped, I can't use that same slot for anything else. Additionally, once I remove that materia, Cloud cannot use Fire. Compare to 6, where you have the same system with magicite, sure, until you earn a maximum of 100 ABP, at which point you can remove your magicite and continue to use whichever spell(s) you just learned at any time without penalty. That's the difference between a system that is customizable and one that is not.
Not if it's the original NES version where half the spells don't work. ;)Quote:
Actually, you can't! :p Even 1 forces you to pick only 3 out of 4 spells available for each magic level. You'd only be successful trying to apply it to 4.
While I agree VI is pretty easy, I'd make the same argument in VII and most of the later games barring IX. The series is pretty easy and equipment is often pretty moot. VI did start the turn towards easy street in the series but it also brought back heavy tinkering since you can play with a characters stats and abilities. Yes, it doesn't make much of difference in the long run but those are the RPGs most of us ended up buying since the rest of the series continued the trend of high customization with low challenge.Quote:
Further, your point is entirely invalidated due to the lack of difficulty in 6, where a lack of any difficulty to speak of kind of renders any thought about equipment moot.
Peel away V's abundance of stat raising skills, and equip skills and you are not far from having similar results. V still has more but that's largely due to VI making some characters represent V's classes so the skills remain unique (Relm = Tamer Job Class) but I will argue the Gauntlet is not simply a stat booster because it modifies your equipment and options. You are basically disregarding a shield (stat increases, magical defense abilities, evasion, etc...) for increase in damage. It is basically the Knight classes Doublehand ability from FFV.Quote:
As for relics, well, maybe if there were more than half a dozen that did anything unique. The vast majority just do typical accessory stuff.
Your inability to understand is exasperating. Linear means you have no choice, actions proceed in a certain order, non-linear means you have a choice and it affects the outcome. It's not a difficult concept to figure out. The issue with your argument about it being just optional content is that the options in VI continues the story of the characters whereas most other optional content is simply a non-story related quest like raising chocobos. The player is given the ability to do things in the order they want. Are the events largely linear? Yes, but this is a JRPG, story comes first and if we went with "choose your own adventure to affect the whole plot" the narrative of the first half of the game is made pointless.Quote:
You seem to have confused the concepts of optional content and linearity of content here! To be fair, my paragraph wasn't as well articulated as it could have been since I needed to head to work. If any content is optional, then of course it's going to be non-linear. And while 6 certainly gains points for the sheer volume of optional content (yet only at the late game stage), trying to claim that optional content is non-linear is pretty bogus.
To break this down to you, when you get the airship in the WoR, you see the cutscene of the carrier pigeon leading you to the town where you'll get the even that shows you where Cyan is. You now have three options: Choose to follow where the story tells you to go, choose to go somewhere else but come back later, or choose not to do it at all.
Recruiting your party is told to the player in a linear sequence of events, but the player has the ability to go out of sequence to do them, giving them choice on the order of the stories progression choosing to ignore these options completely affects the ending meaning your action has a tangible repercussion when the game ends, you affect the ending, whether you feel it's weak or not really doesn't change the fact you can affect the ending but whether you choose to change the ending or not doesn't mean that recruiting a character is the same as a optional side-quest because all optional sidequests in RPGs don't affect the story or ending.
Not choosing to recruit Locke will change Celes's ending in the game's ending. Whereas beating the WEAPONS in VII doesn't affect anything, whether your party fells them or not the game already makes it clear that they will be killed off-screen by Holy or in-game by you, but either way you'll see the exact same ending so your actions have no effect on the story. A more poignant example is the Zell/Library Girl side-quest in VIII. It's a side-quest cause doing it or not doesn't change anything, he still winds up with her in the game's ending the only purpose for doing it is to learn how Zell got with her and you are rewarded a Combat King's issue earlier than you would normally get. Whereas, recruiting Cyan is something the game tells you to do (whereas neither VII or VIII tell the player to do the quests I mentioned above, hence "optional") but going to Doma and doing the Dream world quest is an optional quest cause it doesn't affect the game's story, whereas not recruiting Cyan will alter the ending by omitting his stories closure.
Optional content is usually for gameplay benefits or for clarity to the player if it decides to be a bit story focused, but doing it doesn't affect the game which is why we call it optional. Regardless of whether you do it, you still get the same sequence of events and see the same ending. Which in VI's case means recruiting the characters isn't something that can be brushed off as "optional sidequests" since it affects the game's story. Could it have been better implemented? Well yes, I'm not going to disagree there but the game was toying with something Square had never done before while also doing a number of other new innovations while pushing the game's technology to what they felt was it's limits. Yet if you look at Chrono Trigger, you'll see VI's design set-up done better.
Your choices affect the characters story, is it optional, yes but that also means it's non-linear which means you're conceding my point. The thing about the WoR as I said is that I can choose to finish the character's stories or I can choose to finish the plot or I can do both. It's not Elder Scrolls but its a step up for a genre that makes you dance to the author's strings for 40 hours and give you little say in the matter. The point is, you conceded that the WoR is optional content which means it's non-linear which means I am right and I can always hold that over you VII fans. :pQuote:
Linear content? In YOUR non-linear endgame?????Quote:
Choose to ignore getting Relm back, well looks like Strago is in that cult until Kefka is gone.
Quote:
Chose to jump ship ASAP at the Floating Continent, well Shadow is now dead and you lose the ability to see the final dream revealing his backstory, but you gain the ability to see Relm's dream.
I think there's a lot of misconception over Shadow. I don't even know which of "missable" or "optional" is more appropriate, considering to even use him you have to do something entirely unintuitive and unconventional. I'd imagine that his being killed off is the normal option. Regardless, sure, well call these minor details you'd have to slog through 30 hours of gameplay to see a couple of small changes "replay value."Quote:
Choosing to save Cid even nets you two very different outcomes
If you like the game then it's enough of a reason to go back and do things differently, I mean VII has the date scene and VIII has the Missile base quest. It's not much but it's still something to give players another go despite knowing the outcome and I'm not the type to simply brush that off as inconsequential.Quote:
We'll be fair, here, and throw in the three or so scenes that change depending on what characters you've reunited with at the end of the game. This is barely even worth replaying the entire game for, as you can simply reload a save form before recruiting the relevant character to make the difference. For most characters, though, the endings simply show a portrait of the character you missed and pans some scenery during their unique scenes. That's not replay, that's missed content.
Honestly it's the fact the characters are mostly materia combo slots that I don't like VII's system, I just feel it diminishes their value as actual characters if I can make any of them anything. I'm no longer compelled to use everyone, I just pick the three I like and build them however I want. At least in V their was some restraint with options so I could build personalities into the characters. It made using them feel impersonal cause there was very little to distinguish them besides how they looked.Quote:
This is what makes VII that much more enjoyable for me. Quick, easy customization. The party is just a group of glorified materia combo slots - the real party begins when you start distributing gems and ending up in various types of party builds (of course, VII also suffers from the lack-of-difficulty problem, so.) In VI, you have a dozen characters and two dozen skill-teaching gems which can be equipped on each of the characters in order to make the skills "stick" over time. It's not long after you get your first handful of Magicite that VI's "customization" starts to feel more like admin work with regards to spells and level-up bonuses.
VII ultimately will lead you to building a clone army. Outside Cloud and Aerith the rest of the class is pretty much statistically the same with the few differences largely being negligible especially since materia doesn't really modify stats greatly unless you seriously buckle someone down magic/summon materia, and even then I don't feel the stat difference makes up much of difference cause the game is pretty easy. The only Limit Breaks that matter are the ones that hit multiple times as the others don't really do much that materia can't do anyway and the game even gives your whole party ultimate weapons that allow all of them to hit the damage cap regardless of levels and with no customization required. So there is really little to differentiate characters except Tifa and Cait Sith use a slot machine interface, and Aerith is largely defensive/mage based but she dies anyway so there is no point in using her anyway.
Well no, you seem to have missed the point, first off, I feel the developers intended for you to lose Shadow on a first playthrough, of which you would unlock the Relm dream and learn of their connection to each other. Then you started to notice that he has weapons available to him in the WoR but can't find him anywhere. At this point the player starts realizing that, holy trout, maybe I did something wrong at the Floating Continent, as so you play the game again replay value and start doing different things at that point to see if something else happens. The secret was keeping him alive and that was a reward a player got for trying new things,[using old man voice] cause you see back in the "good old days", developers designed their RPGs to reward players for trying different things to see different outcomes. Cause back then it was hard to give replay value to to this style of genre, so developers did this type of stuff. Breath of Fire, Lufia, Dragon Quest, all of them have little secrets buried away for the player to explore. This is why people were adamant about their being a way to revive Aerith, cause it was quite common to have these types of secrets in these games back in the 90s. Stuff like this was fun cause players would learn different things about the game and share secrets back and forth. This was before the internet came and made having mystery in a RPG non-existent. I mean it's DQ policy since DQVIII to make guides that tell you absolutely nothing about the story or some of the side content, not even the order of events, just so they can delay GameFaqs from killing all the little mysteries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Arrow
The idea of keeping Shadow alive was a cool secret back in the day, much in the same vein as how you get the Best ending in Breath of Fire which involves making several choices the game blatantly tells you you can't make. See this was back when games were games. :cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Okay Bolivar, you place me in a hard position because you failed to do something very trivial and I now must resist rubbing this in your face. Those are not the sprites from DQV, that is from an FFVI Hacking forum and that is a set a fan created sprites so he can be placed into the game without looking out of place. Notice how the tent at the end is from FFVI and try to remember back to if Hiro ever used a tent sprite in DQVHe didn't.Quote:
You're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1855/dq5hero.png
Hero can bulge his eyes to look surprised, wipe his brow to look relieved, or assume a fighting stance in precarious situations. Character sprite animations have been important since Final Fantasy II, specifically the scene where Paul breaks the party out of the Palamecia prison. Final Fantasy VI has excellent sprite animations, but its additions weren't sufficiently larger than Final Fantasy V to be surprising.
This is the actual sprite Attachment 37613, notice how it doesn't look anything like this :ffvisad:. Notice how Hiro has black dots for eyes, and how Terra actually has animated and expressive eyes. So yes, VI had the most animated sprites for its time.
Now here's Bartz full story mode sprite list with 39 total animations
Attachment 37614
Here's Terra's
Attachment 37615
Even ignoring the actual sprite change ones (Chocobo, Magitech, esper, tent form) she still has 52 total of just her normal sprite. They have roughly the same amount of movement sprite animations but look at the range of emotions Terra can express due to her better sprite animations. Bartz sprite is expressive, but it doesn't tell you much about him, whereas I feel you can get a pretty decent picture of what kind of person Terra is.
This is my point, if you played FFV or DQV in Silent Movie mode, with no text to give you anything to go by. You would have a hard time grasping the plot and who the characters were, if you did it to VI, well you'd probably still have problems following it (it's still limited) but I feel the depth of emotions the sprites show as well as how the game implemented them into the story scenes, I feel you would have a general idea of the mood of the game as well as who the characters are. Krile squatting over Galuf's blinking body, is just not as expressive or as engaging as watching Celes climb up a cliff and then leaping to her "death" with a tear coming out of her eyes as she falls. You really can't argue that the way VI utilized the sprites was more powerful than most games before it utilized it. As well as that it was something that became more prominent after VI due to VI showing how the technology could be used.
I don't quite know what you are talking about here, there are not any games that meet up with VI's sprite quality brfore 1994 except Secret of Mana and Mana is mostly battle animations. Afterwards, yes, it was surpassed but that's just progress the idea a game can be the "best" at something indefinitely is something only fanboys talk about and they are wrong cause games have gotten better, Crono's animations dwarf anything Terra could do. Technology just allows designers to surpass the old. VI redesigned how sprites were done through technology which allowed people like Kitase to create more expressive story scenes, just as the advent of 3D allowed those games to do a wealth of more expressive animations than the 2D ones of yesteryear. Progress marches on but as you've pointed out in our VII debates, it's how the story utilizes that technology to better itself that sets the games apart from it's predecessors. ;)Quote:
Even if it was, FFVI's importance is irrelevant to the question of whether FFVI has been surpassed, especially in light of the assertion that FFVI was surpassed by a lot of its contemporaries on the SNES, before and after its own release date.
Well I would consider Mega Man X to be somewhat non-linear because the player chooses how the events unfold and also in some games, the order you go in can affect the stags as well. If the player can change the order of events then its not really a linear game now is it? It's really not too difficult to grasp this simple definition. Whether it's meaningful is more of the issue you two seem to have and that largely depends on the individual but it doesn't change that it is a non-linear game since the player can change the order of events. Yes the narrative is linearbut there is no rule that both have to be in compliance. The game does present the option of following a linear narrative (because this is a story based game after all) but that is largely to help players give them an idea of where to go as opposed to just wandering around until they bump into something important, so it's more for the sake of preventing player frustration. It's also for the players who just want a linear experience and that's an option as well. The irony of all this is that I don't disagree that it could have been done better and I have said before that Chrono Trigger did it better, your denial is the only reason I argue. :DQuote:
I'm also going to throw in with WildRaubtier that FFVI's nonlinearity is not such an exciting thing. It really does mostly amount to optional content, and in reality there is a logical way to follow a geographical path to re-recruit every character. They really did just take a linear story path and make it all optional. Saying Final Fantasy VI is nonlinear is like saying Mega Man X is nonlinear. Just because you can pick an order to do things doesn't change the character of an overall linear experience.
Jesus smurfing Christ, WK.
Please actually play Final Fantasy VI so you can be a valuable contributor to this forum, Sam. Not many people still have things about this game that aren't discussed and documented somewhere.
VI is a game I thoroughly enjoy to this day. There are games that have more advancements be it from a graphical or gameplay standpoint, but I think the best part is how the simplicity makes it shine.
Heyyo, this is like that epic swordfighting scene in Die Another Day, where Pierce Brosnan wins a swordfight against a dude, except Wolf just did it against 3 dudes each wielding buster swords with two connected materia slots... :Oo:
But yo, I'm sitting here with such a big smile on my face because I got caught! And I really didn't mean it! I thought for once, I UNDISPUTABLY AND IRREVOCABLY HAD WOLF! THE BIG BAD WOLF! BUT THIS TIME I WAS THE ONE WHO BLEW THE HOUSE DOWN!!! I'm so utterly ashamed as a hardcore Dragon Quest fan and DQ promoter that I actually inserted a sprite sheet where one of them had a tent and I didn't find anything suspicious.... I'M SO ASHAMED!!! :crying2:
BUT YO!!! I still haven't found any full sprite sheets of the characters from DQV. And as such, I refuse to concede that DQV's characters had no expressions as you suggested!!!! I will not capitulate!!!! THERE WILL BE NO QUARTER!!!! :hot:
But wow, you're telling me that Final Fantasy VI had a whole 12 more sprite variations than Final Fantasy V??? Wow, Mr. WK, what an substantial leap and noteworthy landmark that is!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha
No. :barf:
Do you mean the argument that you violently and vehemently deny to the bitter end everytime I raise it!?!?!?Quote:
Progress marches on but as you've pointed out in our VII debates, it's how the story utilizes that technology to better itself that sets the games apart from it's predecessors. ;)
But enough of sprites. Sprites is not the point of this thread. The question is has FFVI been surpassed. I hold that yes, it had already been surpassed on its own console, by at least one game that predates it. Let us move to what you had to say to Flying Arrow about the infamously poorly-executed Shadow moment on the Floating Continent:
Wolf, I had to ask: are you yourself aware of how much horses#!t that is? I had to make sure. I needed to be certain that there's no possibility that you honestly believe this load of crap. Because if you did, I would be seriously worried for you, like, scared to death for your mental well-being. I know there's no way you can seriously believe that JRPG designers did this sort of thing.... We've had a lot of debates, but this would be the point where I start to fear for your safety, that you might hurt yourself in your mental state. I might have to drive myself out to West Dakota or wherever it is you live and check you into a mental care facility because I KNOW YOU'RE NOT TELLING ME THE SHADOW SCENE WAS MEANT TO BE BAD ON PURPOSE!!!Quote:
[using old man voice] cause you see back in the "good old days", developers designed their RPGs to reward players for trying different things to see different outcomes. Cause back then it was hard to give replay value to to this style of genre, so developers did this type of stuff.
Anyway, Tactics Ogre is still better, that is all.
Seriously, that was the best you can do? trout man, I feel Chrono Trigger is a better game than VI, I just feel VI is an important step for JRPGs, you're the one going all blargh about it for no real reason other than to troll, you should just chillax. :meditate:
This topic is largely over since it doesn't look like anyone has anything else worth saying. Watch a fun video instead:
Oh, don't worry, I'll reply. I'm just going to need some time to actually read all of that :p
Take your time, hopefully you can get through that by the weekend :D
Excuse me Wolf, but I'm not going on "all blargh" (good one) about the game for no reason. We're in a Final Fantasy forum. We're in the FFVI subforum. We're in a VI thread about how good the game is, if it's been surpassed. I said yeah. Then you went on this nonsensical string of diatribes about how Final Fantasy VI was an unprecedented thunderclap of inspiration because it had a couple more sprites than the last game and Yatsumi Matsuno made a SRPG for his second game...
At least you gave up on that whole "The Shadow-waiting is counter-intuitive because back then JRPG devs wanted to give you something to talk about with your friends." I started to fear for your life after that one...