I Don't Get the Complaints around XIII

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abscence of mini-games don't make any game bad. That's super nitpicky.

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No, it is a fault with the design. To not include something that VII, VIII, IX, X and even XII managed to some degree is a glaring fault. It isn't nitpicky to suggest that having so much of the substance taken away is a bad thing and taking choice away is a bad thing., Your position on this is frankly, utterly absurd.

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Correction, what you think makes an RPG. Genres evolve over time whetever you like it or not.

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No, correction, what the creator of the RPG genre says it is.

GZay2Stay's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

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"If the main selling point of the software is the non-interactive story scenes rather than the actual gameplay then it's not a game." ~ Shigeru Miyamoto (Director: Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time)

"If a games designer chooses to have the story be the most important part of the video game then they must find a way to tell it interactively to the player. Even if it's a strictly linear and pre-scripted story, there needs to be some form of interactivity from the player when it's being presented. To have the most important part of a video game not require any interactivity from the player is a serious game design mistake." ~ Fumito Ueda (Director: Ico, Shadow of the Colossus)

"The most important part of a RPG is the player feeling like they are taking the role of a character in a fully realised fantasy world. They can explore, visit various towns and places, talk to people, customise their character, collect various items, and defeat monsters. The story is not the focus of the experience and is only there to make the atmosphere of the fantasy world more interesting and engaging during the course of the game." ~ Yuji Horii (Creator of the JRPG genre/ Supervisor: Chrono Trigger)

"Although the FF series has greatly advanced over the years, it's still a RPG. FF tends to be mostly story driven so I always try to balance the experience by putting more effort into the RPG gameplay." ~ Hiroyuki Itou (Director: FFVI, FFIX, FFXII)

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An RPG is a criteria of things and if you miss out a lot of that then it is no longer an RPG. In fact XIII design team Toriyama: Final Fantasy XIII Is Like An FPS | Game Stooge did suggest that this was designed with FPS in mind.

Genres do evolve, but they generally expand and improve on a winning formula, something this game DID NOT DO. FACT. FF7 expanded and improved on FF1. FFXIII does not improve on VII or X or even XII gameplay wise.

I notice you don't come back at any of these faults accepting that to leave them out is a bad thing. You want me to accept that to have LESS is better or normal and that I should just accept it all as cool and progress? GET REAL! What an absurd position to hold. It is just absurd! ABSURD. :jess:

@ Seifer

I dislike FFXIII so it pains me to now have to defend it, but mate, you're talking nonsense. I can't stand the game because it doesn't appeal to me, primarily for most of the reasons you're putting forward. But i can see that this is my personal preference and not because the game is flawed. It has a few actual flaws, but every reason you've given is simply opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away choice that is a flaw

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No it isn't. They sacraficed choice to focus on the story, just as XII sacraficed story to focus on gameplay. Not every FF has to follow strict structure based off previous FF titles.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away interactive NPC and reduce their number massively that is a flaw

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NPC's are present, but instead of reading text they are voiced. If you stand close to an NPC they will begin talking. Have you played the game? If you had then you would know this. I guess all those reviews you read can't tell you everything.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they keep you to a linear corridor for 90% of the game this is a flaw

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FFX was guilty of the same thing. It didn't hinder FFX's success and aparantley it's not going to hinder XIII's. So again, not a flaw.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away traditional towns that is a flaw

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I missed towns and so did a lot of other people on this forum. SE's reasoning for not having towns does actually qualify this as a flaw, but unfortunatley for you it still comes down to opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away control of characters that is a flaw

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It certainly is. But you're exaggerating. You have much less conntrol, but by no means is it taken away completley. The auto-battle command won't always do what you want it to do, and even if it did you still have the option to provide commands manually. Two characters are uncontrollable but you still affect how the AI controls them. I can't believe i'm sticking up for this because i hate it, but the sizable amount of people who enjoy the system would argue against you, which brings this one down to opinion again.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they stop you choosing who is in your party that is a flaw

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Now this really does show the holes in your arguement. The FF games you seem to regard so highly (VI,VII,VIII,IX and X) are ALL guilty of this. Every FF will push unwanted characters into your party if they are required for plot, and take them away if that character needs to be somewhere else. You havn't played the game so will you even be able to tell me exactly when characters are being shifted around and when you are able to pick your own party? Your arguement has pretty just become invalid completley because it's just become clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they make the game have too many cutscenes or a bloated story at the expense of gameplay, that is a flaw.

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What do you consider to be "too many cutscenes". This again is down to preference and opinion and is not a flaw.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

It has nothing whatsoever to do with personal preference, this is just a convenient scapegoat. Flaws are flaws.

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And you have yet to give a single one. I could name a few genuine flaws for you, but i don't care enough to help you

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No, it is a fault with the design. To not include something that VII, VIII, IX, X and even XII managed to some degree is a glaring fault.

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Right, sorry for thinking we weren't talking about expansion packs here instead of sequels who have the potential to approach things from a new and exciting perspective if the developers want to and are creative enough.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

taking choice away is a bad thing.

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there
is
a
difference
between
choice
and
problem
solving
which
disguises
itself
as
choice
most
of
the
time

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No, correction, what the creator of the RPG genre says it is.

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I can also pick random people from the street and ask what they think makes the perfect cup of coffee. Be them regular people, or the first guy who thought it was a good idea to make a drink out of beans.

That wasn't a random guy it was one of the main guys involved in Jrpg and supervisor of chrono trigger. Again your lack of comebacks to my points and argument show you up ;)

From now on I will just send a mega post to people who ask the question or make a point. I am going round in circles here when all it needs is 1 large post every now and then :)

And people/teams can't have different options? That's the reason why RPG's aren't exact copies of each other.

Good luck with going around in circles.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

That wasn't a random guy it was one of the main guys involved in Jrpg and supervisor of chrono trigger. Again your lack of comebacks to my points and argument show you up ;)

From now on I will just send a mega post to people who ask the question or make a point. I am going round in circles here when all it needs is 1 large post every now and then :)

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Someone who hates XIII had to defend the game. Think that makes it a fairly good comeback.

And there are no strict genres anymore. According to your definition of RPGs, all the Jak games are RPGs. And there are many FPS which have you level up and chat to NPCs in towns etc (I think Unreal 2 was one of these). And the space game Freelancer also would classify as a RPG. Games are-a-changing, and we need to accept that.

I believe = my opinion.

Obtuse enough for you..rotfl...

I don't agree that the eliminationof things that were well received in previous FF games is progress.

To me it seems like regression.

Devolution and not evolution.

We're all different.

There are certain things in rpgs I prefer. Believe should be there for the game to be a real rpg.

Others can disagree if they so choose.

Doesn't mean their beliefs /opinions are absurd.

They are entitled to their opinion even if I find them perplexing/can't understand their reasoning/rationale.

I can see that the PS3 might be difficult to program for..I have heard that argument from other game makers...and maybe that is why Square is having difficulty in doing more..but it's not like they didn't know what would be a problem and they should have had ample time to research those problems and come up with workable solutions.

Anyway..I guess I am starting to get tired of this...so lets move on

I'd agree with you angrywolf that it is opinion but when we are talking about taking away A LOT of what made Final Fantasy good and what makes a game have gameplay and nothing is added to replace it...

How can it be an opinion that this is a backward step? If anything it is purely logical and accurate to call this a flaw and a regression, not an opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I'd agree with you angrywolf that it is opinion but when we are talking about taking away A LOT of what made Final Fantasy good and what makes a game have gameplay and nothing is added to replace it...

How can it be an opinion that this is a backward step? If anything it is purely logical and accurate to call this a flaw and a regression, not an opinion.

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I adressed your "flaws" already.

After the amount of FFXII bashing you've done, i'd of thought FFXIII was exactly what you'd wanted. You complained at every aspect of FFXII and SE addressed every complaint and gave you exactly what you asked for - an emotional story driven game with no gambits and no exploration.

I dislike FFXIII, nothing within the game suits me. But i recognize what SE were trying to achieve and apreciate that there is merit despite it not being to my tastes.

I think the very fact that so many people enjoy this game means SE at least did something right. Nobody is denying you the right to dislike the game or to have Opinions but it's kind of sad that you can't accept that it is simply not to your tastes and feel the need to convince people you are right and your opinions are fact. Your poll is also a sad attempt to try and justify your opinions but inevitabley it wont solve anything.

It didn't address my complaints at all as I have repeated to you 100X,

Its story was bloated and too cutscene heavy, it forced you to read data logs. That isn't what I wanted.

It sacrificed even more gameplay for story and got the balance wrong, that isn't what I wanted.

It had linear corridors for ...look we have been through this 100X

XII didn't give me what I wanted, nor did XIII. They both got it wrong and got balance wrong.

VII, VIII,IX and X gave me what I wanted.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII didn't give me what I wanted, nor did XIII. They both got it wrong and got balance wrong.

VII, VIII,IX and X gave me what I wanted.

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Then play them. VII, VIII & now IX (bought it, now just need to download it: YAY!) are all available on the PSN. And think about the benefits. You'll never need to buy another console or any new games, because you'll have exactly what you want. As you said, gameplay is way more important than graphics, so you'll have everything you want.

And XIII hasn't given you anything as you are yet to purchase it. There is a clear diametric opposition when one argues that a game lacks gameplay when the arguer has not in fact actually played the game and therefore has no idea what the gameplay is actually like firsthand. And you may be able to piece individual components of the game by opinions and reviews, but a game is a holistic experience which one can only enjoy by playing it. Unless you're that guy's girlfriend in the Sony PS3 advert (the one about Uncharted). She clearly could enjoy it.

I do play them. But I would much rather play the new games had they been decent and added to the series rather than subtracting. I am not sure how many more times you want me to repeat myself but I am game if you are, my resolve is pretty strong, I can tell you ;)

I don't need psn, I have FF7 and 8 on PC and they are miles better on it. I have 9 and 10 on emulators.

murgh....im almost at the point where i just might not come into this side of the forums anymore. i want to, because i love this game and i want to read constructive threads on it, but i am being pushed away with the constant arguing and undermining.

i DO believe everyone is entitled to their OPINIONS, but that's just what they are. it seems too much of what i see is people stating their opinions as fact, and telling others that theirs are wrong. and that, my friends, is just not right. is it gonna happen anyway? absolutely. but come on guys....it is so painstakingly obvious that there are people who like this game and always will and will fight for it, and there are those that don't and will fight for that.

for me, an FF game means a few very simple things: chocobos, spells that end with -ra and -aga, a guy named cid, and some classic references to prior entries. they do not need to be set up to play or unfold comparatively to said entries. they are not even true sequels, they are stand alone entities that are their own games, and must be played and liked (or disliked) by their own merits.

seriously, i know it 100% futile to say...let it go, let's all just agree to disagree, and move on to more enlightening conversations, but for smurf's sake....this is getting really redundant. there is a flaw thread. there is a love and a strength thread. this is all up to personal preference, as with any game. i've already posted my points for why i like this game in other threads, and i don't intend to keep repeating myself as i just don't have that much patience. this game absolutely suits me, but that doesn't mean that i've forgotten what other games are like either. it just means i choose to enjoy games based on the individual experience, not by comparing it to every other game that i happen to enjoy.

i'm not telling anyone to let go of their opinions, i'm just asking not to be so forceful and hostile towards others. the only facts known about the game are that it is, indeed, a video game. everything else is opinion. i just want to see these forums return to a friendly and constructive state, as that's why i became interested in joining in the first place.

You chose to come to this thread where you knew complaints about the game were being made.

If you don't like those then I suggest you don't come to this thread or to the flaws thread.
Stay on the love or strengths thread and express your love for the game.

smile.

I do agree with seifer like I have said.

I believe by watching videos and reading reviews he formulated an opinion about the game he is entitled to have.
Just like the people who like the game and have played it have formulated their favorable opinions about the game.

shrugs.

I do think seifer has said more than enough about the game and needs to let it drop and move on.
I'm ready to so this is the last post I intend to make about FFXIII.

smile.

So you guys have fun.:p

uuuhhh, when did i ever say that i don't like other people's opinions? never. my point was that recently there's been too much of a bad air surrounding those opinions and the ensuing discussions. i thought i'd made that clear, but here i go again....

yes i came in here full aware that complaints were being made but all i'm trying to get at is the same things are being said over and over, with no real resolution at all to the arguments. and i say...what's the point in continuing on when we know one side is never going to agree with the other?

i like anyone else on here is up for a good debate but most of these arguments have gone past the point of debates to just being people trying endlessly to shove their opinions down others throats.

i DO tend to stick to the love and strength thread, but even there i see people making complaints occasionally. EVERYWHERE in this forum there are complaints made. it's quite obvious i couldn't get away from it even if i wanted to, so whatever. that's fine. again, not my point.

that's great you agree with seifer, i don't. many people don't and others do, as has been demonstrated time and time again. it's fine to feel how you want, because it's YOUR feelings. i just think enough (WAY more than enough in some cases) has been said, points have been made, time to move on. which you, it seems, are respectfully doing so kudos.

ahhh, screw it. i just wanted everyone to have a hug lol