Sakaguchi or Nomura?

Well, I guess this kind of sparked a debate in the FF7:AC forums, but I thought I'd post it here in general gaming to get a wider range of responses. Basically, I didn't put this in the Square-Enix section because Sakaguchi has his own company (Mistwalker, for anyone who didn't know).

So, who do you like the best? Hironobu Sakaguchi or Tetsuya Nomura? Also, what are your opinions on Sakaguchi leaving Square to create Mistwalker?

Please keep all fanboyism out of this, and hopefully we can keep it sensible. :)

It's a disgrace to even try comparing them.

I would have to say I like Sakaguchi more, even though I have nothing against Nomura. I guess I just like the overlying theme throughout many of Sakaguchi's works.

I think it's great that Sakaguchi is working on other games now with Mistwalker. It was probably a breath of fresh air to him leaving the company and working on original games that weren't Final Fantasy.

As an aside, wiith so many RPGs from Mistwalker (among other developers) coming out on the 360, it's really making me consider getting one.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

It's a disgrace to even try comparing them.

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Please, elaborate. I'd rather see decent input, than one liner trolling posts.

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Originally Posted by Lookout Zeromus_X

I would have to say I like Sakaguchi more, even though I have nothing against Nomura. I guess I just like the overlying theme throughout many of Sakaguchi's works.

I think it's great that Sakaguchi is working on other games now with Mistwalker. It was probably a breath of fresh air to him leaving the company and working on original games that weren't Final Fantasy.

As an aside, wiith so many RPGs from Mistwalker (among other developers) coming out on the 360, it's really making me consider getting one.

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I am going to agree with you. I really do like Sakaguchi a lot more than Nomura, but in saying that I really don't mind a bit of Nomura here and there (for instance, Kingdom Hearts).

With Sakaguchi, it just feels 'right', and more mature overall. If that makes any sense. And the fact that he is bringing more RPG's to the Xbox360 has got me thinking about getting one.

Aside. I saw Nobuo Uematsu's profile on the Mistwalker website; I'm very excited; he is my Elvis.

Okay then.

First, I dislike Nomura's character designs. It seems to me that he lacks inspiration, and a lot of their faces end up looking similar. I realise though that this isn't too relevant in a Nomura vs Sakaguchi debate, because Sakaguchi doesn't do character designs. Still, it counts as a minus in my overall opinion on Nomura.

The other reason I have might be a bit biased, and could also be because I'm growing older, but I feel that some of the more recent games simply make less of an impact on me, and that correlates with Sakaguchi having a lesser and lesser role.

But the reason for my first post in here is basically that Nomura is just mainly a character designer, and at that, not the best I've seen, while Sakaguchi is the producer of the games that I regard as the best ones. That's why I don't think they're even in the same league.

A Matsuno is fine too.

I'm honestly not a Final Fantasy fan, but I will say that the Sakaguchi-era FFs appeal more to me. Haven't been interested in any of the 3-D FFs until 12 (which was Matsuno's baby). I likes Kingdom Hearts though, but I'm looking forward to Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey more than I'm looking forward to Kingdom Hearts 3.

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

A Matsuno is fine too.

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Ah, cool. I've never really known much about Matsuno, so thanks. :) While we're on the subject of bringing up a few others that were previously or are with Square Enix, another name to mention would be Masato Kato for his work on Chrono Trigger / Cross, Xenogears, Final Fantasy VII / XI.

(Not to mention he is Yasunori Mitsuda's good friend, who is another favourite composer of mine.)

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey more than I'm looking forward to Kingdom Hearts 3.

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Yes, I'm definitely looking forward to checking those two games out. Granted I don't have an Xbox360, but we'll see how things pan out by the time they reach Australia (if they do).

For me, it's easily sakaguchi. No contest really, and it really is a disgrace to compare the two.

First of all, I will talk more about nomura's character "designs". And by that I mean he doesn't so much design characters as he rips of archetypes from anime and japanese culture. The males are all cut from the same cloth. Typically angsty pretty boys that could have stepped out of any sailor moon episode. Auron, his most "creative" (IE lifted from various sources) design is a bit of Cloud Strife (who imself looks like he stepped out of the eighties anime Beserk) mixed with a buddhist monk and a stereotypical samurai.

Then there are the Female designs he does. Once again, very derivitive designs that are always based on the same model. It's either they stepped out of a shojo anime or right out of a geisha house (IE yuna and lulu). and while I find his work on FFX to be awful (whats up with holy icons in body paint and G-Strings) It's his work on X-2 that makes me want to wash my eyes out with bleach. Worst story EVER in a FF title painted over with his own personal final fantasy. I mean when you take a religious icon like yuna and strip her of all her clothes just for fun, you know you got some funky fetishes the public has no business knowing about. I see X-2 of Nomura's way of giving the middle finger to sakaguchi after he left, since X was sakaguchi's project.

Oh yah, and If I live to be a million, I'll still never understand what people see in sephiroth. V-neck leather and a unhealthy fascination with cloud do not a classic villain make. He's sesshomaru from Inu Yasha with both arms, less personality, and a worse sense of fashion.

Then there is His less than stellar work as a director. A director is responsible for the entire final product, but typically it's the story, the characters, and the writing that the director focuses on the most. In this sense, Nomura is a spectacular failure. the story, characters, and events in FFVIII were all awful, and felt like a four year olds fan fiction then an actual story. X-2 was even worse from a storytelling point of view. Kingdom Hearts was actually decent for a while, I like some of the plot twists and themes, but then the story imploded for the final quarter. It was just so contrived and idiotic. How is it the light from kingdom hearts destroys ansem, who has become a heartless, yet the gates to kingdom hearts have to be sealed because it is overrun with enough heartless to destroy the universe. Arrrrrggghh. And the sequel was even worse. Now sora is all grown up and a badarse... but still deeply sensitive (arent they all) and thats about it for any real story. The rest is final fantasy and Disney fanservice.

Then there was advent children. The film was a terrible storytelling train wreck, and anyone who tells you different is either getting paid to lie to you, a FFVII fanboy, or a sadist. The animation was pretty stiff, almost to the point of making the film look like a puppet show. I'm a action buff, and I can tell you the action scenes were every bit as haphazzard and poorly thought out as the story.

Sakaguchi in comparison has his flaws, he likes to move a bit slow at times, but he is a much more competent storyteller. His titles all play with different themes and ideas, showing how versitile he is. His film, Spirits Within has it's flaws, but it's still a damn fine Sci Fi flick and head and shoulders above Nomura in every possible way imaginable. Save for Final Fantasy fan service.

And thats all I have to say about that.

About Advent Children, I didn't really find the animation stiff. The animation and over the top action scenes were the only two redeemable features it had, I think.

I don't consider either of them particularly outstanding. The only title that I thought Sakaguchi directed notably well (FFI-V and Spirits Within, from what I know of. Haven't played Blue Dragon yet) was FFIV and the only game that Nomura directed that I thought wasn't half bad (Advent Children, KH I and II) was...actually none of those are notable in any way at all.

Apart from that, the two aren't particularly comparable. Nomura is and always will be a character designer at heart, something which I've never heard of Sakaguchi partaking in. They both also have random writing credits in various games, but they've never really revealed how much they influenced the games themselves to make any real judgment. We'll see how Blue Dragon and FF Versus XIII turn out I guess.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

About Advent Children, I didn't really find the animation stiff. The animation and over the top action scenes were the only two redeemable features it had, I think.

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Never seen any of John Woo's hong kong stuff have you? I consider shooting a mans eye out in a early scene, and then to pistol whip the same guy in his eyepatch in response to the arse kicking he's giving you in a later scene to be rather over the top.

Advent Children just had matrix slow mo effects and a lot of leaping through the air and sword twirling. So few of the fight sequences resulted in serious injury, and the few times it did happen (cloud getting shot through the heart, cloud having his sword arm lacerated) the story either threw in some deus ex machina, (ie Aerith will fix it) or just forgot about the injury two seconds later (cloud pulling off limit break with a maimed sword arm). That lack of consequences took all the impact out of the action sequences, and made them tedious and boring instead of intense and thrilling.

Also, I'm a huge fan of animation. Espescially animation that takes itself seriously and breaks the cliche of animation being solely for children. I personally found AC's animation to be very stiff and jerky like. The art itself had a lot of detail and imagination, but the flow of the animation itself was really stiff IMO.

Nomura!!!

He made X :love:

Nomura, because his characters have a slightly more realistic design.

Why are you looking for realism in a fantasy game? :p

I like the early stuff a lot better than the later FF games. Sakaguichi was the better designer. His characters were more interesting.

FF10 was the first I played, and I thought it was cool and original -- until I played other RPGs. The very next game had the exact same Auron type character (Geddoe), with the same eye injury, and almost the same backstory. I've never seen another Cecil or Rosa, they were unique. Frankly, Zidane was all kinds of unique, and well, maybe the uniqueness of Quina is a step further on. His plots weren't the same every time either. Golbez and the Four Fiends in FF4 isn't the same as Zeromus or Exodeath. Kefka wasn't ripped off of anything.

And Sakaguichi made you care about all of his characters. Leo's death was a tragedy. Aeris seemed more like a videogame redshirt -- she was there to be sugary sweet and then (SPOILER)get stabbed . She had very little control over the plot -- you could have easily given anyone the Holy Materia, heck have somebody *find* the Holy Rock. Red was another thrown in character. Cait Sith at least had a plot-purpose -- his disposable robot body could get crushed by the temple.
Now considering the vast differences in technology (Sakaguichi had 32 bits at most, Nomura had 3D and FMV) I'd say Sakaguichi did more with less.

I think they are both pretty cool...but im a man who likes to pay homage to his elders...Sakaguichi gets my vote but in the end they both go their ups and downs

Sakaguichi

Pros - Created final fantasy...enough said

Cons - Left final fantasy...enough said

Nomura

Pros - Personally i like his character designs even though alot of them are recycled...but some of them work and they look amazing

Cons - I wish directors would start taking some bigger risks with their storys (well i suppose this is just my beef with square enix in general)

But all in all i dont really have a problem with either...like i said their both pretty groovy dudes (Also Masato Kato and Yasumi Matsuno rule...nice mentions fellas)

I like and dislike parts of both men, and they have both made/greatly controlled excellent games, and mediocre games, have made awesome characters and terrible characters, and etc.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

whats up with holy icons in body paint and G-Strings

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What's up with presuming all religions throughout the infinite multiverse have exactly the same views on the body as puritanical Abrahamic ones?

I think they're both pretty lame, to be honest. Sakaguchi takes himself too seriously, and the same themes tend to show up over and over in his stories. Nomura avoids deep themes altogether and opts instead for pure style... which can be a lot of fun, but gets old after awhile without anything substantial to back it up. He also has a very unhealthy obsession with zippers and Gackt.

If I had to choose between the two, I would go with Nomura. This is only because he's still relatively young and has a lot of room to grow and mature as a director, while Sakaguchi - in my opinion - has grown rusty.

Masato Kato. Any day.

I see what the comparioson is of the two Sakaguchi used to be the main man in charge, now it seems like Nomura is taking the series over with Advent, and XIII and all. Yeah and I don't really like his character designs all that much alot of them end up looking alike.

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Originally Posted by Germ Hamee

Gackt.

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Is Gackt the guy who sung the Dirge of Cerberus theme songs? Don't really know much about him.

Which games did Sakaguchi do, and which did Nomura do? Then you'll have my answer.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

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Originally Posted by Germ Hamee

Gackt.

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Is Gackt the guy who sung the Dirge of Cerberus theme songs? Don't really know much about him.

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Wow, apparently. I didn't know anything about that until just now. Most of what I know about Gackt is he's big in the music industry, and a lot of Nomura's character designs look IDENTICAL to a few of Gackt's photoshoots.

Can't believe I forgot to mention Masato Kato >_<

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Originally Posted by darksword12

Which games did Sakaguchi do, and which did Nomura do? Then you'll have my answer.

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Sakaguchi

Final Fantasy I-VI, IX, X, Spirits Within
Producer and director

assistant scenario writer on FFVII

Nomura
FFVII, FFVIII, FFX-2, Kingdom Hearts, Advent Children
Producer, character designer and Director.

FFX
Character Designer

Sakaguchi. Sakaguchi all the way. Realism has no place in FF.

And now that Nomura has refused to remake FF7 I hate his guts.:mad2:

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

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Originally Posted by darksword12

Which games did Sakaguchi do, and which did Nomura do? Then you'll have my answer.

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Sakaguchi

Final Fantasy I-VI, IX, X, Spirits Within
Producer and director

assistant scenario writer on FFVII

Nomura
FFVII, FFVIII, FFX-2, Kingdom Hearts, Advent Children
Producer, character designer and Director.

FFX
Character Designer

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Some of those credits are a little off. To my knowledge, Sakaguchi was only the producer and director of FFI-V and Spirits Within. He was only the producer for FFVI and FFIX (with a original concept writing credit) and had no real involvement at all in FFX.

Also, Nomura was only a character designer for FFVII, FFVIII, FFX-2 beyond having a writing credit in FFVII (he worked on the original concept with Sakaguchi, with only the vague concepts within it making it into the final script).

Most of these can be found on www.mobygames.com. For some reason they only list credits for the Advance versions of FFIV-VI though, so I'll have to track down another source for those games (those only other game credit site I could find was in Japanese).

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Originally Posted by Karellen

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

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Originally Posted by darksword12

Which games did Sakaguchi do, and which did Nomura do? Then you'll have my answer.

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Sakaguchi

Final Fantasy I-VI, IX, X, Spirits Within
Producer and director

assistant scenario writer on FFVII

Nomura
FFVII, FFVIII, FFX-2, Kingdom Hearts, Advent Children
Producer, character designer and Director.

FFX
Character Designer

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Some of those credits are a little off. To my knowledge, Sakaguchi was only the producer and director of FFI-V and Spirits Within. He was only the producer for FFVI and FFIX (with a original concept writing credit) and had no real involvement at all in FFX.

Also, Nomura was only a character designer for FFVII, FFVIII, FFX-2 beyond having a writing credit in FFVII (he worked on the original concept with Sakaguchi, with only the vague concepts within it making it into the final script).

Most of these can be found on www.mobygames.com. For some reason they only list credits for the Advance versions of FFIV-VI though, so I'll have to track down another source for those games (those only other game credit site I could find was in Japanese).

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Nomura was the lead director on X-2, I remember seeing the credits for the japanese version and his name was definitely on there. Also FFVIII was also his baby, after the success of FFVII square gave him free reign to see what he could do... then revoked it when the game was a washout in japan.

hence why it wasn't until after sakaguchi left that he took over directorial and producing duties for several of squares projects.

and sakaguchi was the director and producer for FFX. it was his name on the in-game credits. But you are right about my mistake on FFVI, he did write and produce, but it was Kitase (nomura's current right hand man) who directed.

You've all gone and forgotten Amano!

He was the one who designed the characters for FFI-VI as well as IX.

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

You've all gone and forgotten Amano!

He was the one who designed the characters for FFI-VI as well as IX.

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no one has forgotten about the great and mighty Amano, or at least I havn't, I think the main point of discussion here is who was the superior director/producer.

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Originally Posted by Lookout Zeromus_X

I would have to say I like Sakaguchi more, even though I have nothing against Nomura. I guess I just like the overlying theme throughout many of Sakaguchi's works.

I think it's great that Sakaguchi is working on other games now with Mistwalker. It was probably a breath of fresh air to him leaving the company and working on original games that weren't Final Fantasy.

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one thing that I respect sakaguchi for is being able to create FF storylines that felt unique and different. There is no way you could ever confuse the characters from FFIV with those in X or IX. Each of them are different and unique. Each of them have their own struggles and issues to wrestle with.

As for Nomura, his storylines are inconsequential to his style. All his stories feel similar in tone and themes. Each of his characters wrestle with similar themes (romance, friendship, why does the world suck, why am I so badass) and rarely seem any different from the characters from any of his other titles. And like I've said before, the man just issues when it comes to his female characters.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

You've all gone and forgotten Amano!

He was the one who designed the characters for FFI-VI as well as IX.

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no one has forgotten about the great and mighty Amano, or at least I havn't, I think the main point of discussion here is who was the superior director/producer.

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Ooh. I thought that you had forgotten that Amano designed the characters, not Sakaguchi. (Although Sakaguchi decided their stories and personalities).

I havnt played FF1-6, so I dont think I have the authority to give my opinion on the matter. But my favourite FF was done by Sakaguchi. My second and fourth were done by Nomura.

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

You've all gone and forgotten Amano!

He was the one who designed the characters for FFI-VI as well as IX.

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Dude, I'd smurfing love to forget Amano. For serious. All his artwork looks the same; everyone has the same frickin' face and the clothes are so wispy and undetailed that I feel sorry for the suckers who have to paint the more detailed images and/or render them in CG... they have nothing to work with.

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Originally Posted by ReloadPsi

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

You've all gone and forgotten Amano!

He was the one who designed the characters for FFI-VI as well as IX.

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Dude, I'd smurfing love to forget Amano. For serious. All his artwork looks the same; everyone has the same frickin' face and the clothes are so wispy and undetailed that I feel sorry for the suckers who have to paint the more detailed images and/or render them in CG... they have nothing to work with.

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It's one thing to have different tastes in art, it's another thing to be blind to detail, personality, and skill just because a persons art is not to your tastes. Personally I love amano's sketches. I'd post some of his art just to show how wrong your comments are, but first of all this is a thread about sakaguchi Vs Nomura, and second, It's really not worth my time to debunk a poorly thought out post like that.

Oh yah, and Amano doesn't give a smurfs arse about CGI, the guy is an artist first. He was sketching and painting back before CGI even existed.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Oh yah, and Amano doesn't give a smurfs arse about CGI, the guy is an artist first. He was sketching and painting back before CGI even existed.

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I'd just like to add that a lot of CG artists have an extensive history in fine arts. I think it's quite ignorant to believe and preach that just because one guy still studies and practices a physical form of art, that he does not appreciate computer graphics.They both come hand in hand in the industry.

I doubt you actually know Amano personally to be able to tell us that he "doesn't give a smurgs arse about CGI".

By the way, I love Amano. But the reason I said Nomura, was because he had directed a few games, where as Amano just stuck with character designs.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Oh yah, and Amano doesn't give a smurfs arse about CGI, the guy is an artist first. He was sketching and painting back before CGI even existed.

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I'd just like to add that a lot of CG artists have an extensive history in fine arts. I think it's quite ignorant to believe and preach that just because one guy still studies and practices a physical form of art, that he does not appreciate computer graphics.They both come hand in hand in the industry.

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First of all, Amano has formed his own studio, and mainly works freelance for various anime and video game studios, while publishing graphic storybooks. The man does quite fine without relying on CGI. I don't know him personally, but I do know a good deal of his history to know that video games have never really been his sole field, mainly a field he has dabbled in. The one time his art got turned into CGI, well as much as I love FFIX, I have to say that the in game and FMV character designs just did not do the line art justice. Hence why he's never really submitted his designs for another 3D make over

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

First of all, Amano has formed his own studio, and mainly works freelance for various anime and video game studios, while publishing graphic storybooks.

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What difference does it make that he owns his own study and does freelance work? That wasn't the point of what I had said.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The man does quite fine without relying on CGI. I don't know him personally, but I do know a good deal of his history to know that video games have never really been his sole field, mainly a field he has dabbled in.

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I never said he didn't do well without CG, just that he could very well appreciate it (there's more to CG than just video games and films, mind you). Also, a lot of anime is starting to be created with CG in mind.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The one time his art got turned into CGI, well as much as I love FFIX, I have to say that the in game and FMV character designs just did not do the line art justice.

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Didn't he do a lot of other art for other Final Fantasy's too? Either way, just because it didn't turn out the way he liked it for one game, doesn't mean he "doesn't give a smurfs arse about CGI".

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Hence why he's never really submitted his designs for another 3D make over

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But he works for video game companies, like you said, right? :rolleyes2

Basically, take what you will of that, but I'm not going to argue it anymore. I'd rather get the thread back on track.

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Originally Posted by Omecle

But he works for video game companies, like you said, right? :rolleyes2

Basically, take what you will of that, but I'm not going to argue it anymore. I'd rather get the thread back on track.

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You may find this hard to believe, but 2D, pixel based graphics and still shots used for cinema's are still being produced by several successful studios in todays industry. Shocking huh? :rolleyes2

The rest of your post is based on whether your assuming amano appreciates cgi, whether he appreciates it or not there have been no instances of his using the medium since FFIX, which lends substance to the idea that his preference is towards his own distinctive art style over working with CGI.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

You may find this hard to believe, but 2D, pixel based graphics and still shots used for cinema's are still being produced by several successful studios in todays industry. Shocking huh? :rolleyes2

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Since when did I say that I didn't know that 2D was still being used? I actually do have an extensive knowledge of what goes on in film and game industries in terms of development. Yet I still don't see what you are actually getting at, as I never refered to it.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The rest of your post is based on whether your assuming amano appreciates cgi, whether he appreciates it or not there have been no instances of his using the medium since FFIX, which lends substance to the idea that his preference is towards his own distinctive art style over working with CGI.

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Just because he prefers to use his own art style, does not automatically make him appreciate CG less. He could very well like the amount of detail and art direction someone uses in their CG work.

I don't really see how what I assumed has anything to do with my reply to your post. Anyways, I'd rather assume that he could appreciate it, rather than just plain out say that "he couldn't give a smurfs arse about CGI".

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Originally Posted by Mirage

It's a disgrace to even try comparing them.

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...Pathetic.:tongue:

I could relate better to characters in games Sakaguchi directed, but I can't really think of a comparison. To me, Nomura is still a designer-turned-director. Besides, am I the only one who likes (at least to a certain extent) his designs? Some characters are stereotyped, sure, but so are characters in a lot of successful anime nowadays. However I have to say that with time his characters tend to look more and more alike. I saw the picture of the grey-haired man from FF XIII and I went "WTF, Silver Haired Man!" before I realized the eye color didn't match.

I like his designs too :jess: There are millions of RPGs out there with completely generic anime designs. They don't stick out at all. At the very least, Nomura's designs do not inspire indifference.

I like Nomura better, overall. Nomura tends to go overboard with the abstract, but I think he puts the player through pretty cool "parts". Sakaguchi is always harping on and on about emotional stories, but they turn out too whimsical and plain.

After playing Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey, it is clear Sakaguchi's influence is not a good thing. Lost Odyssey, for instance, had much of the Shadow Hearts team working on it. They made amazing turn-based systems in SH: Covenant and SH: From the New World, but here they were simplified a lot. Read any interviews, and you'll hear him spouting about old-school turn-based still having its place. Turn-based does, but we've moved long past hitting Attack a lot.

I'm just saying he's a man that still thinks devices like a sprint button, formations, and seeing enemies on the field (in BD) is huge innovation. Lost Odyssey is good, don't get me wrong, but it had potential to be awesome and was drowned in things we've seen too many times before.

Neither is bad, though. (>'.')>

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